Avengers Endgame: Now With Spoilers!

[garhkal]

I was a fan of Marvel Comics when the X-Men, Dr. Strange, Alpha Flight, Spider-Man and the rest were primarily crime-fighters. There were a few exceptions. The Dark Pheonix Saga was kind of cool. Dr. Strange was never really a crime fighter by the time I was collecting it, but Dr. Strange wasn't really based in crime-fighter origins.

For me, i was into the x-men/x-force/x-factor/excalibur, comics from around 92 to 99..  Loved the Onslaught saga, the Sentinel primes and even the 'ages of apocalypse' alternate reality time frame..

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

In the 90s, X-Men and its spinoff titles were basically the only thing keeping Marvel afloat.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Fair point to consider, even when they WERE crimefighting superheroes, there were always much greater threats than simple safecrackers and whatnot.  The same kinds of threats that they focused on later, like you said...but some classic Superman animated shorts, for example have him fighting crime in the small scale only to find the stakes are much bigger.  Or else the stakes are huge to begin with.  There's one where an investigation from Lois prompts a look into a munitions factory that's actually been taken over by the mob - and the mob is working for foreign powers intent on taking down the entire country...in 1941.  The other one's the famous Machine Men robbing a freaking gold reserve with giant flying robots and laser cannons; the police with machine guns are completely outclassed.  Good thing Sky Captain Superman was around.

So while some of them may have been bad ideas, and some of them exceptionally bad ideas (looking at you, Codpiece) even in the golden age the super hero had a super villain to go up against, and stakes to match.  Maybe those stakes have grown, but so have our heroes - Superman used to just be super-strong, and could jump really, really high; these days...well, you've seen the movies.

Escalation happens.  When you're a slightly godlike agency, escalation happens a lot.

[Luciora]

X-Men - Day of Tax Audits Past doesn't sound exciting to me, neither does Justice League vs the Home Owners Association.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I'm sure that there are plenty of people living under an HOA that would love to see the Justice League take it on.

[Weirdo]

I don't, and I'd still pay good money to see that.

[Daryk]

I find that joke particularly hilarious in light of CGP Grey mentioning a HOA in his "Rules for Rulers" video (based on the excellent "Dictator's Handbook").  ;D

[Colt Ward]

I don't, and I'd still pay good money to see that.

Make that two . . . heck, no HoA was one of my rules for the wife on house hunting.  Along with no curving flowerbeds or lots of little flowerbed islands, I am not spending all that time mowing twisting and turning- straight lines on autopilot and I want to be done.

[garhkal]

I watched a # of you tube vids discussing the end of end game (one going on about what happened in Wakanda after T'challa got dusted, who took over the king spot), and saw one that was claiming, Marvel movies as a whole wouldn't have been done, had it not been for Blade saving their bacon..

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Sorry, but that's just silly.

The Blade movies were a series of low end action flicks that didn't get (or deserve) a lot of recognition.  X-Men was the movie that kicked off the idea of superhero movies as being big blockbusters.

[ANS Kamas P81]

A 45 million dollar movie bringing in 130 million in receipts proved that you could turn a profit on a marvel comic book property.  DC had been gangbusters for decades between Superman and Batman franchises; Marvel...nnnot  so much.  It opened the way for X-men, which went for near 300 million on a 75 million budget, once again not great but a productive win at the market.  Suddenly Marvel's products (even if they were in other people's hands) were viable.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Superman franchise had been dead since the disaster of Superman 4. Batman had been floundering through a series of increasingly worse films as the 90s went on. Blade wasn't even on the radar: there was open talk that superhero movies might be dead until X-Men.

[Hellraiser]

I think I saw an interview with Bryan Singer? that was saying they had wanted to do an X-Men film for a long time but the CGI was just to crappy to make stuff like Cyclops & Storm's powers look good on film.

And I think we can all agree that when it finally happened they look damn good.


Superman & Batman might have had crap sequels but they did show that you could have a popular franchise with the first couple of each line.

 

[Hellraiser]

Side story, I stood up out of a crowd at a Comic Con and asked him how in the heck Spider Man beats the X-Men in the first Secret Wars.

You know, I still own that book.  It was one of the only Super Hero comics I read as a kid who was more into GI-JOE, Transformers, & RoboTech.

I think the X-Men were asking themselves the same question.

And it pretty much came down to Speed, Surprise, & Spider Sense,  and the fact that he hit Xavier first & then was mostly evading to escape.

A prolonged combat would have seen him go down & Xavier mind-wiped him just as he was getting away, so in the end, he didn't really win, just had a nice surprise attack.

Finally, since he fights crooks I think they really underestimate how strong & fast he really is.

Well, some can be left out really . . . IM1, both Captain America, GotG 1, and of course the Avengers 3 movies and you should have it.

I'd say even more CW.

I've had several people ask me that recently as Non-fans, what they HAVE to see to follow Avengers-3 & 4.

I really thing only Cap-1 & Avengers-1 are required from Phase-1 since they are the only 1 touching on an Infinity Stone (or the Shield War).

Come Phase-2 its quite a bit more.
Thor-2,  Guardians-1,  & Avengers-2 for sure.
Cap-2 is also notable for opening up all the drama to come in Avengers-2 & Cap-3

Phase-3 is almost all required.
I think really just Guardians-2 is the only thing you can not watch as nearly every film has some sort of lead in to Avengers-3 at that point.

[Colt Ward]

I knew I was missing something with Thor, but all I could think of what the character development in the first movie which was not really required for End Game. 

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

You know, I still own that book.  It was one of the only Super Hero comics I read as a kid who was more into GI-JOE, Transformers, & RoboTech.

I think the X-Men were asking themselves the same question.

And it pretty much came down to Speed, Surprise, & Spider Sense,  and the fact that he hit Xavier first & then was mostly evading to escape.

A prolonged combat would have seen him go down & Xavier mind-wiped him just as he was getting away, so in the end, he didn't really win, just had a nice surprise attack.

Finally, since he fights crooks I think they really underestimate how strong & fast he really is.

That and there's also the issue that Spider-Man has long experience taking on groups of foes with powers similar to the X-Men (in the Sinister Six, for example, Rhino is very similar to but faster than Colossus, while Electro is similar to Storm), while (at least at the time) there wasn't anyone in the X-Men rogues gallery that had a remotely similar powerset to the webslinger.

[garhkal]

A 45 million dollar movie bringing in 130 million in receipts proved that you could turn a profit on a marvel comic book property.  DC had been gangbusters for decades between Superman and Batman franchises; Marvel...nnnot  so much.  It opened the way for X-men, which went for near 300 million on a 75 million budget, once again not great but a productive win at the market.  Suddenly Marvel's products (even if they were in other people's hands) were viable.

Exactly.  Even if marvel itself only made 45k, on that film.  The fact it made a lot, showed them that "Hmm, comic books to films" can do well..

And I think we can all agree that when it finally happened they look damn good.

Agreed.  I liked Cyke's eye blast.. 

I knew I was missing something with Thor, but all I could think of what the character development in the first movie which was not really required for End Game.

Other than the enchantment on the hammer "He should he be worthy"

That and there's also the issue that Spider-Man has long experience taking on groups of foes with powers similar to the X-Men (in the Sinister Six, for example, Rhino is very similar to but faster than Colossus, while Electro is similar to Storm), while (at least at the time) there wasn't anyone in the X-Men rogues gallery that had a remotely similar powerset to the webslinger.

How did that handle Jean's TK??

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

How did that handle Jean's TK??

Probably his Spider Sense.  Was Jean even alive at the time?  It's been so long I can't remember.

[Nightlord01]

Probably his Spider Sense.  Was Jean even alive at the time?  It's been so long I can't remember.

Spider sense wouldn't do any good if she grabbed him. Her telepathy would have done him in before that too.

There's other issues as well, but with comics it's best not to overthink it. Usually when trying to answer stupid "Who would win?" questions, people have ample backstory to cherry pick from. The capabilities and power levels of all super heroes and villains tend to vary based on who is writing or editing the books/movies, making most of those questions and arguments fundamentally useless.

[roosterboy]

How did that handle Jean's TK??

Jean was dead* at the time so it didn't come up.



* Well, technically she wasn't actually dead but that retcon hadn't been introduced yet.

[Colt Ward]

Other than the enchantment on the hammer "He should he be worthy"

Yeah, but that comes up again in Ultron when they are all sitting around doing the BS session and everyone else is trying to lift the hammer.

[Banzai]

That and there's also the issue that Spider-Man has long experience taking on groups of foes with powers similar to the X-Men (in the Sinister Six, for example, Rhino is very similar to but faster than Colossus, while Electro is similar to Storm), while (at least at the time) there wasn't anyone in the X-Men rogues gallery that had a remotely similar powerset to the webslinger.

Reread that series a year or so ago.  The storyline for the mutants was pretty much "mutants suck." 
They go off on their own and no one trusts them as the Beyonder called Magneto a "hero" and they didn't want to kill him right off; Spidey spies on them and then kicks their collected assess (no, Jean was dead at the time, but Chuck was there - you know, the most powerful telepath ever? As was a tactical genius who shoots lasers from his freaking eyes, a flying brick, A guy made of steel who can throw 75 tons around like it was cardboard, a teleporter, a weather goddess (Electro can control winds?) a dragon, and...oh yeah, Wolverine, all as a team who had been fighting together for years);  Colossus falls in love with an alien who doesn't speak any human languages and who runs off with Johnny Storm; and Magneto honestly spends his whole time in this book trying to seduce The Wasp.

Yeah, the mutant's couldn't buy a break. 

When they came back Colossus dumped Kitty, which sucked (and was stupid), but led to the single best bar fight in Marvel history when Pete goes to a bar to drink his sorrows away and runs into The Juggernaut who was only there for a quiet beer.   Totally worth it.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The reason Kitty and Colossus got broken up was because he was 21 and she was 14.  Marvel had (finally) caught on to the fact that a relationship between the two was squicky and illegal.

They could have handled it far better, though.

As far as the team goes:

Professor X: Has blatantly always been subject to getting neutralized or otherwise proving ineffective in fights throughout his entire history, to the point that "World's Most Powerful Telepath" is in question.

Storm: Theoretically powerful but was subject to embarrassing defeats or having her claustrophobia flare up at exactly the right time to prevent her from being useful.  She didn't really become a serious badass who could really put forth the logical amount of force her powers should allow until the 90s.

Cyclops: yeah, he can shoot lasers.  Throw a rock in the Marvel Universe you'll hit six other people that also can.  His tactical genius?  Marvel's lack of tactical geniuses on the writing staff made it rather difficult to depict tactical geniuses in the comics- Captain America had the same issue.

Colossus: Yeah, he's strong and tough.  He's also know for being one of the slowest moving characters in his weight category- only the Blob is considered slower.  Anyone who can take down Rhino can take down someone who's powers are basically the same except he can't run as fast.

Wolverine: Has matched up against Spider-Man on multiple occasions.  And it's been quite consistent that Wolverine is not a match for Spider-Man.

Lockheed the Dragon: I honestly don't remember Lockheed ever doing much in a fight due to pretending to be nothing more than Kitty's pet.

Nightcrawler: Actually a fair match against Spider-Man in terms of agility (he's not quite as fast), but not used to fighting someone who can anticipate his teleports and instantly dodge or counter him.

Rogue: Another character who's full potential wouldn't be realized for years.

[Banzai]

Yes, there was that.  It was first a crush and an blush situation, which worked well.  But then they made it a romance.  I just had a problem with the "Peter falls in love with the healer alien at the drop of a hat because of healing" that happened in SW, followed by "healer alien gets swept off feet by Human Torch and Colossus caries a torch (ha ha!)."  It was shallow and goofy, and X-Men at that point wasn't written as shallow, just sometimes goofy. 

As to the team argument, you list them individually.  But they had been fighting much more powerful foes, as a team, for years.  Against Cosmic-level threats, like whole alien empires.  They knew how to fight together, using each other's strengths and weaknesses, training daily to work together in the Danger Room for situations just like this.  Then in this book they apparently have never met each other much less fight as a team.  Again, ignoring their history to show them up.  Don't get me wrong, Spidey is awesome.  But his curbstomp of them ignores their combined powers as well as their training and experience.  He doesn't spy on them, get caught and escape -- he hands them their collective assess.  And it is a theme throughout the series. 

And that doesn't even start with Magnus: The Ladies Man...

[garhkal]

Spider sense wouldn't do any good if she grabbed him. Her telepathy would have done him in before that too.

There's other issues as well, but with comics it's best not to overthink it. Usually when trying to answer stupid "Who would win?" questions, people have ample backstory to cherry pick from. The capabilities and power levels of all super heroes and villains tend to vary based on who is writing or editing the books/movies, making most of those questions and arguments fundamentally useless.

Yea.  Plus as both characters are often fan faves, they do NOT like having one whup up the other..  It nearly always seems to end in a draw.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yes, there was that.  It was first a crush and an blush situation, which worked well.  But then they made it a romance.  I just had a problem with the "Peter falls in love with the healer alien at the drop of a hat because of healing" that happened in SW, followed by "healer alien gets swept off feet by Human Torch and Colossus caries a torch (ha ha!)."  It was shallow and goofy, and X-Men at that point wasn't written as shallow, just sometimes goofy. 

Marvel at the time tended to be awful when it came to relationships: the mutually abusive cycle between Ant-Man and Wasp that culminated in The Slap, Cyclops abandoning his wife without talking to her, Wolverine's repeated drama (and the associated women in refrigerators)...

[gyedid]

The things I think about while getting my hair cut...

I was recalling the Cap vs. Cap fight and 2023 Cap's use of Loki's sceptre, with the Mind Stone, to subdue 2012 Cap.  The only other times we've seen it used are by Loki himself and Ultron, who used it to bend others to their will.  2023 Cap had no such motive, so, besides knocking the younger version of himself out, what other effect could it have...?

What if it actually served as a kind of mindwipe? 

We already know that thanks to the SNAFU in the lobby, this is now an alternate reality where an unreformed Loki is running around with the Tesseract.

What if when 2012 Cap wakes up, he has a bit of trouble remembering just who he is and what he's supposed to be about, and is a bit more susceptible to suggestion now?  And the first person who finds him is one of those SHIELD agents who's really a HYDRA agent, and already fell for 2023 Cap's "Hail HYDRA" ruse?  This person approaches the memory-muddled 2012 Cap and begins treating him like he's one of theirs...AND CAP BELIEVES HIM.

And we now also have an alternate reality that fulfills the "Secret Empire" storyline from the comics--a Captain America who believes he's with HYDRA.

cheers,

Gabe

[ANS Kamas P81]

Easy explanation, his memory muddle only lasts the past minute or so and he vaguely remembers getting America's *** handed to him on a platter, but remembers everything prior to meeting the '23 Cap.  Problem solved.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It's an alternate reality anyway.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

That would be hilarious.