3145 Quad 'Mechs

[martian]

Nice to see a fellow Quad fan!  O0  You left off the Stalking Spider II though!   :D

That was deliberate decision.
I would describe it as "mixed feelings".While the 'Mech itself is interesting, poor choice of its primary weapon disqualifies it.

[DarkISI]

That was deliberate decision.
I would describe it as "mixed feelings".While the 'Mech itself is interesting, poor choice of its primary weapon disqualifies it.

Just deactivate the turret mechanism. ;) Or don't play with the, purely optional, quirks. It would be a shame if my fluff decisions would have a negative impact on people fielding the unit. My goal was to give it character, not to turn it into a pariah. :)

[martian]

Just deactivate the turret mechanism. ;) Or don't play with the, purely optional, quirks. It would be a shame if my fluff decisions would have a negative impact on people fielding the unit. My goal was to give it character, not to turn it into a pariah. :)

That's nothing personal against you:

1) absolutely do not care about quirks, as they are often assigned randomly or they have no relation to the fluff. Often they serve as corrections of bad design decisions or cheap ways how to get advantages of some equipment without paying for it. So I decided to ignore them.

2) as for the Stalking Spider II, its use of Large Heavy Laser makes absolutely no sense. Since 3050 everyone knows that average IS pilots are much less skilled than average Clan ones.
This SS II was designed with "Inner Sphere" pilots in mind, and "second-line and militia" pilots in particular.

So why the Diamond Sharks put LHL on it with its short range and +1 to hit penalty? And why had anyone bought such 'Mech, obviously unsuitable for its intended pilots?
Surely it would make sense to arm the 'Mech with for example ER Large Laser, with its better reach, lower heat, better range brackets and no in-built inaccuracy?
Or better yet - if you know that your IS pilots are not too skilled - Clan Pulse Laser? If you know that they are bad shooters, so give them a weapon that will help them hit their target? Instead of weapon with +1 to hit give them weapon with -2 to hit?

[DarkISI]

That's nothing personal against you:

1) absolutely do not care about quirks, as they are often assigned randomly or they have no relation to the fluff. Often they serve as corrections of bad design decisions or cheap ways how to get advantages of some equipment without paying for it. So I decided to ignore them.

I was under the assumption you were referring to the SRMs and the ammunition feed quirk. My mistake. :)
I never took it personal, though. No worries there. :)

2) as for the Stalking Spider II, its use of Large Heavy Laser makes absolutely no sense. Since 3050 everyone knows that average IS pilots are much less skilled than average Clan ones.
This SS II was designed with "Inner Sphere" pilots in mind, and "second-line and militia" pilots in particular.

So why the Diamond Sharks put LHL on it with its short range and +1 to hit penalty? And why had anyone bought such 'Mech, obviously unsuitable for its intended pilots?
Surely it would make sense to arm the 'Mech with for example ER Large Laser, with its better reach, lower heat, better range brackets and no in-built inaccuracy?
Or better yet - if you know that your IS pilots are not too skilled - Clan Pulse Laser? If you know that they are bad shooters, so give them a weapon that will help them hit their target? Instead of weapon with +1 to hit give them weapon with -2 to hit?

Bigger boomstick makes more money? ;)

[martian]

Bigger boomstick makes more money? ;)

Well, no. The difference in prices of LHL and ER Large Laser is mere 50 000 C-Bills. That's completely negligible difference of 1%, if we consider that entire SS II costs 4 300 000 C-Bills.

If I were some IS militia CO, I would refuse to buy a 'Mech with weapon that makes it harder for my green inexperienced pilots to hit target - not until the Sharks re-arm their 'Mech with something else, something what will work "for us", and not "against us".

[DarkISI]

Well, no. The difference in prices of LHL and ER Large Laser is mere 50 000 C-Bills. That's completely negligible difference of 1%, if we consider that entire SS II costs 4 300 000 C-Bills.

If I were some IS militia CO, I would refuse to buy a 'Mech with weapon that makes it harder for my green inexperienced pilots to hit target - not until the Sharks re-arm their 'Mech with something else, something what will work "for us", and not "against us".

I would actually like to discuss this further. But I think we are in the wrong forum for that. Do we want to move this discussion to another forum area and let this get back to the miniatures? :)

[martian]

Let's talk about modern Quad 'Mechs that we can meet on battlefields of the 32^nd century ...

[Weirdo]

Posts moved to this thread by request for ease of conversation.

-Your Friendly Neighborhood WEAREALWAYSWATCHINGYOU...

[DarkISI]

Let's draw up a small list of the 3145 quads then. :)
Revenant (Republic)
Stalking Spider II (Mercenaries)
Jaguar (Lyran Commonwealth)
Ursa (Lyran Commonwealth)
Sarath (Free Worlds League)
Antlion (Federated Suns)
Arion - QuadVee (Clans)
Cyllaros - QuadVee (Clans)
Harpagos - QuadVee (Clans)



No quads:
Draconis Combine & Capellan Confederation. (Clans debatable, they only got QuadVees.)

[nckestrel]

Was the Stalking Spider II going to average IS pilots?  That seems a waste of clan tech regardless of weaponry.
Though even for better mechwarriors, I'm not fond of large heavy lasers. 

[martian]

Was the Stalking Spider II going to average IS pilots?  That seems a waste of clan tech regardless of weaponry.
Though even for better mechwarriors, I'm not fond of large heavy lasers. 

Yes, its fluff says so.

[Scotty]

I wasn't aware that fluff altered any of the base characteristics of the 'Mech.  The quality of the 'Mech itself may be suspect, but that quality shouldn't hinge on the fluff-potential pilots.

[DarkISI]

Was the Stalking Spider II going to average IS pilots?  That seems a waste of clan tech regardless of weaponry.
Though even for better mechwarriors, I'm not fond of large heavy lasers. 

I always assumed it goes to regular units, not necessarily anyone special, yes.
Had I had any input on the design itself, I probably would have replaced the Heavy Large either with an improved version or three or four ER Medium Lasers. :)

[DarkISI]

I wasn't aware that fluff altered any of the base characteristics of the 'Mech.  The quality of the 'Mech itself may be suspect, but that quality shouldn't hinge on the fluff-potential pilots.

It doesn't for your regular game, but it does inside the universe. If you want to argue about the sense or nonsense of a unit within the bounds of the universe, it is important to know who fields it. :)

[glitterboy2098]

Well, no. The difference in prices of LHL and ER Large Laser is mere 50 000 C-Bills. That's completely negligible difference of 1%, if we consider that entire SS II costs 4 300 000 C-Bills.

If I were some IS militia CO, I would refuse to buy a 'Mech with weapon that makes it harder for my green inexperienced pilots to hit target - not until the Sharks re-arm their 'Mech with something else, something what will work "for us", and not "against us".

i would guess that the reasoning was the Sharks figured the IS would want the greater firepower of the HLL given that the mech uses standard structure, armor, and engine, and devotes mass to a turret. basically, they were trying to ensure it packed enough firepower to compete with IS mediums in the same rough tonnage, even if that meant the accuracy took a small hit. and the use of a HLL instead of an improved model was probably to avoid the "exploding laser" issue.
from a firepower stance, the HLL isn't too bad.. its a potential headcapper at 16 points, and its range is pretty much what most IS pilots are already used to. and the Stalking Spider II has enough DHS to fire it pretty much every turn, so you can afford to use quantity of shots to offset the reduction in accuracy.

[martian]

Let's draw up a small list of the 3145 quads then. :)
Revenant (Republic)
Stalking Spider II (Mercenaries)
Jaguar (Lyran Commonwealth)
Ursa (Lyran Commonwealth)
Sarath (Free Worlds League)
Antlion (Federated Suns)

Arion - QuadVee (Clans)
Cyllaros - QuadVee (Clans)
Harpagos - QuadVee (Clans)
- sorry - not Quad 'Mechs, but QuadVehicles in very limited use

I have noticed that the Lyrans got some big love from Developers:

A)  Jaguar
- pretty solid 'Mech with two-phase use:

• Get behind enemy and open his back with four ER Mediums (28 damage)
• During the second pass fire two ER Mediums to remove remaining rear torso armor and fire HE ATMs and SRMs (40 damage)

Believe me - it works ...

B) Ursa
- this 'Mech was created for charges - your 'Mech takes some little damage and you can seriously damage enemy 'Mech easily (up to 59 points); plus, it's Quad stability helps
- and for elite Lyran units we have Ursa based on ClanTech with headcapping ER PPC and ER Medium Pulses and improved cooling

C) Trebaruna
- my guess is that the Lyrans got a new version TR-XH
- Hardened Armor, improved HGR with enough ammo for twenty rounds, on jump-capable Quad chassis, Quad Turret - what more must I say?

D) Thunder Fox
- on top of getting the best version (twin Snubbies and LBX-10) of all three original models, the Lyrans were given a new model with Tarcomped Clan ER PPC placed in Turret for 360° field of fire, protected with Hardened Armor, on 'Mech that runs 7 and jumps 5

The list of new homegrown Quads for Great Houses from 3145 is more like:
Draconis Combine: 0
Capellan Confederation: 0
Federated Suns: 1
Free Worlds League: 0
Lyran Commonwealth: 4 (6 actually - Ursa and Jaguar have got two variants each)

[Dragon Cat]

Funny thing if you say all those Mechs names I can think of their capability and look except the Ursa drawing a complete blank on it

[DarkISI]

Funny thing if you say all those Mechs names I can think of their capability and look except the Ursa drawing a complete blank on it

Ursa is the Latin word for bear.
And yeah, I agree: the choice of names fits the units' performance very well. :)


@martian
That's why I wrote that the Clans are debatable. The QuadVees do perform like Quads while in 'Mech mode (with the exception of the 360° torso twist), so they could be counted as such.

[martian]

@martian
That's why I wrote that the Clans are debatable. The QuadVees do perform like Quads while in 'Mech mode (with the exception of the 360° torso twist), so they could be counted as such.

Do the Clans (outside the Clan Homeworlds) even produce "pure" Quads? The only examples, that I can think up, are Balius, Stalking Spider II and Araña.
(and Jaguar, but the Wolves-in-Exile are just a subfaction of the Lyran Commonwealth, so I don't know if it counts)

[DarkISI]

Do the Clans (outside the Clan Homeworlds) even produce "pure" Quads? The only examples, that I can think up, are Balius, Stalking Spider II and Araña.
(and Jaguar, but the Wolves-in-Exile are just a subfaction of the Lyran Commonwealth, so I don't know if it counts)

Not that I remember. The Clans have never been all that big on Quads, the ones now outside of the Homeworlds even less. I wouldn't even count the Stalking Spider II or Araña. One is a Sea Fox 'Mech they primarily developed to sell it, not to use it. The other is a weaponized Industrial 'Mech.
That leaves the Balius and the Jaguar (while a case can be made for the Exiles to have become a Lyran sub faction, I would still consider them a Clan by themselves - of course, the Council of 6 would disagree).

[DarkSpade]

Had I had any input on the design itself, I probably would have replaced the Heavy Large either with an improved version or three or four ER Medium Lasers. :)

I'd go for a clan ERPPC personally.  Big hit without the reduced accuracy.   If I remember right, longer range too?

[DarkISI]

I'd go for a clan ERPPC personally.  Big hit without the reduced accuracy.   If I remember right, longer range too?

But also two tons heavier than the HLL.

[Pa Weasley]

C) Trebaruna
- my guess is that the Lyrans got a new version TR-XH

Actually, the intent has that it would be produced on New Earth like the TR-XB. Possibly exported from there.

[martian]

It may be a false memory, but I vaguely remember the original Stalking Spider from some old Dark Age materials.

[DarkISI]

It may be a false memory, but I vaguely remember the original Stalking Spider from some old Dark Age materials.

No, you are not misremembering. The Dark Age Stalking Spider was renamed as the Stalking Spider II and I took the notable pilot Charles Westerfield and his special skill to DFA infantry from one of its pilot cards when I wrote the section for the TRO. :)

[martian]

Actually, the intent has that it would be produced on New Earth like the TR-XB. Possibly exported from there.

Interesting. I thought that TR-XH has been manufactured by the Lyrans because:

1) the fluff from TRO:3085 says that the Lyrans are working on their own version, but the production has yet to start (after 3085)
2) iHGR used to be considered "a Lyran weapon"

Anyway, New Earth has been behind the Wall since 3135. That means that the TR-XH had only five years to proliferate through the Inner Sphere.

[glitterboy2098]

No, you are not misremembering. The Dark Age Stalking Spider was renamed as the Stalking Spider II and I took the notable pilot Charles Westerfield and his special skill to DFA infantry from one of its pilot cards when I wrote the section for the TRO. :)

like a lot of dark age figures, i suspect wizkids had planned for it to be a Stalking Spider like Btech already had, but the stats and appearance wound up just way too different.

still, a cool mech. personally i love it. (it, the jackalope, and the Centurion were the mechs i used the most when i used to play MWDA.) really hoping IWm puts out a mini for it soon so i can start using it in regular Btech and AS..

[DarkISI]

like a lot of dark age figures, i suspect wizkids had planned for it to be a Stalking Spider like Btech already had, but the stats and appearance wound up just way too different.

I suspect the same. But the differences are way too big. Putting a II at the end made sense. :)

[Pa Weasley]

Interesting. I thought that TR-XH has been manufactured by the Lyrans because:

1) the fluff from TRO:3085 says that the Lyrans are working on their own version, but the production has yet to start (after 3085)
2) iHGR used to be considered "a Lyran weapon"

Anyway, New Earth has been behind the Wall since 3135. That means that the TR-XH had only five years to proliferate through the Inner Sphere.

Fair enough. Though the iHGR certainly started making the rounds, as most tech tends to. It pops up in the former FWL strapped to the front of the Bulwark in 3114. As far as only having five years to proliferate, if you're going by the MUL, the units from 3145 NTNU are very much a work in progress. They all have an intro date of "0" and a Dark Age era by default. Might have even had a decade or two.

Plus that's kind of what I was aiming for when I designed it.

And don't get me started on that nightmare fodder mistakenly refered to as the Thunder Fox.  [drool]

[martian]

...
As far as only having five years to proliferate, if you're going by the MUL, the units from 3145 NTNU are very much a work in progress. They all have an intro date of "0" and a Dark Age era by default. Might have even had a decade or two.

Plus that's kind of what I was aiming for when I designed it.

Yes, I understand that. But its record sheet says "Dark Age" and that means 3130+. It seems that while the New Earth plant produced the 'Mech for 5 years for IS buyers (3130-35), the R.A.F has been the only customer for the last 10 years (3135-45).