3145 Upgrade- DI Morgan Assault Tank

[Colt Ward]

With Clan grade energy weapons working their way into more regular usage in the Inner Sphere, not to mention the Sea Foxes selling them it made me wonder . . .

The DI Morgan Assault Tank is a expensive but punishing assault tank in the primary variant mounting 3 IS ERPPCs . . . but what if you swapped them for Clan energy weapons?

cERPPC variant- uses all the same heat sinks but increases damage and because of the nature of Clan weapons you gain 3 tons off lighter weapons while making the turret lighter as well getting another half ton.

cERLL variant- keeps the same damage profile but increases ranges and dramatically increases mass freed up due to lighter weapons & less heatsinks.  Gives you a substantial 19 tons to work with . . .

If you were a commander with access to those options . . . which would you take?

[Railan Sradac]

It depends. The primary reason to go for the ER Large version is to counter enemies who would plink you to death from range, as this keeps enemy LGRs, HAGs and ERLLs in range. If that's likely, then I'd go for a quad-ERLL version (with C3 slave and a ton and a half more HFF) or a 3-ERLL+TarComp version with 16 tons left over for an ELRM-10, a C3 Slave and some more armour.

If that's not likely to happen for IC or OOC reasons, then I'd go for the ERPPC version, with a C3 Slave and 2.5 tons more armour.

[Istal_Devalis]

I'd go with the ERPPC option myself. There's a reason the Hellstar is so feared.

I think upgrading the LRM version with Clan spec LRM's would be slightly scarier, though.

[DaveMac]

I can see the benefits of both but would go with the laser version because of the extra range

Or be really evil and go with pulse large lasers...

[Go For The Throat]

I would stay with the ERPPCs, you only lose damage with them, as opposed to losing range, and damage with the ERLLs.

[Arkansas Warrior]

What?  You gain damage with the PPCs and gain range with the ERLLs.

[Jayof9s]

I suppose it depends on what you're planning to do with the extra tonnage.

Swapping 3 IS ER PPCs to 3 Clan ER PPCs gives you 50% more damage and frees up 3.5 tons (turret is a bit lighter). I'd probably just go with armor (and maybe case) with that weight.

Swapping 3 IS ER PPCs to 3 Clan ER Large Lasers doesn't increase damage but frees up 19 tons and gives you marginally better range. If you just add a 4th ER LL, you still save 2.5 tons but I think that weight would be better spent on ballistics or missiles. So really, it depends how the freed up weight is used.

Swapping 3 IS ER PPCs to 3 Clan Large Pulse lasers leave the damage the same and drops the range a bit but makes you a whole lot more accurate once it is in range and still frees up 3.5 tons.

[Railan Sradac]

Going to Clan Large Pulses actually gets you the same 19 tons as going to ER Larges because the LPL only generates 10 heat per. However, with the slowness of the DI Morgan and the abundance of weapons that can outrange CLPLs, I wouldn't go for them in this case.

I like the idea of putting Clan LRMs on your Morgan. If you drop Artemis IV to do so (which you might do if people tend to sniper your Morgans so you use them for indirect fire) then you can fit 7 CLRM20s in the turret. If you keep Artemis IV, you can fit 6 with 16 rounds' worth of fire, or you could go for Artemis V which would cut you down to 13 rounds of fire, but would make you worryingly lethal.

[Istal_Devalis]

Swapping 3 IS ER PPCs to 3 Clan ER Large Lasers doesn't increase damage but frees up 19 tons and gives you marginally better range. If you just add a 4th ER LL, you still save 2.5 tons but I think that weight would be better spent on ballistics or missiles. So really, it depends how the freed up weight is used.

At that point, I think I'd toss on an armored motive system and a TC.

But then, I'm a Nova Cat.

[Go For The Throat]

What?  You gain damage with the PPCs and gain range with the ERLLs.

I meant that from the standpoint of any of the clan-grade equipment getting damaged/destroyed, and having to replace them with Sphere-grade versions again.

[Colt Ward]

Except I am specifically talking about 3145 where replacement is not as hard as it has been previously.  I mean I guess you could do the 3025 'C' refit route where the extra mass is unused, which makes the cERPPC model the best option.

[Jayof9s]

Going to Clan Large Pulses actually gets you the same 19 tons as going to ER Larges because the LPL only generates 10 heat per. However, with the slowness of the DI Morgan and the abundance of weapons that can outrange CLPLs, I wouldn't go for them in this case.

You're right, I threw that comparison in at the last second and didn't think my math through (pretty sure it's actually 18.5 tons because of the turret weight). Still, if you put the right backup weapons on, the loss of range isn't a big deal and the accuracy makes up for it withing 20 hexes.

[Go For The Throat]

I know, but if it will be out in the field, where the nearest Clan weapons merchant might not be readily available, especially if the unit in question could not afford to purchase adequate quantities of spares, I would rather keep the maintenance as simple as possible.

[Jayof9s]

I know, but if it will be out in the field, where the nearest Clan weapons merchant might not be readily available, especially if the unit in question could not afford to purchase adequate quantities of spares, I would rather keep the maintenance as simple as possible.

This is a bit of a straw-man argument. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of clan weaponry as of 3145, I could just as easily say "there could be a lack of IS ER PPCs because they're so much less popular now that everyone can readily buy or build Clan spec versions." And there's also no actual cost difference between Clan and IS spec ER PPCs per the techmanual.

If you're out in the field, you're not likely to have any IS weapon merchants on hand either, you're relying on salvage or what you brought (or stockpiles you have if you're defending) - as a result, you could just as easily end up with a shortage of anything if your procurement office didn't do their jobs or if the enemy doesn't have the weapons you happen to need to salvage.

Also, a potential lack of Clan weapons hasn't had any real impact on the designs in the TROs for the era we're discussing.

[Go For The Throat]

This is a bit of a straw-man argument. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of clan weaponry as of 3145, I could just as easily say "there could be a lack of IS ER PPCs because they're so much less popular now that everyone can readily buy or build Clan spec versions." And there's also no actual cost difference between Clan and IS spec ER PPCs per the techmanual.

That does not make my statement any less of a valid point (to me).

If Clan spec gear is so abundant, why even design anything with inferior IS spec equipment in the first place? According to Techmanual there is no price difference between any IS and Clan gear of the same name, so point me to the idiot who is selling Clan spec that cheap so my PCs may fleece them to the fullest extent.

If you're out in the field, you're not likely to have any IS weapon merchants on hand either, you're relying on salvage or what you brought (or stockpiles you have if you're defending) - as a result, you could just as easily end up with a shortage of anything if your procurement office didn't do their jobs or if the enemy doesn't have the weapons you happen to need to salvage.

But as you said, I do have my own stockpiles, and if I did not prepare properly, it will be me who suffers, deservedly so. IMO, anybody who is relying that heavily on salvaging what they need is either the luckiest person ever or just setting themselves up for disappointment if they never get it at all, or in the amounts they need.

Also, a potential lack of Clan weapons hasn't had any real impact on the designs in the TROs for the era we're discussing.

No offense to the OP, but if that is the case, why did this topic even come up? Obviously there is an impact on the designs if Clan spec stuff is so easily accessed, but anything is still designed with clearly inferior IS tech.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Would a unit that couldn't afford to stockpile adequate replacement be purchasing such an upgraded tank in the first place?

[Go For The Throat]

That would seem to make the most sense, but until a canon Clan spec version is created, it must be refitted.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Wasn't the entire point of this thread all about questioning what the best fan-made upgrade would be?  It's not canon but it could still be used in a campaign set in that time period.

[Colt Ward]

Honestly I was just wondering which way people would want to go . . . the weapons are not as difficult to get as in 3050 and are pretty easy to drop in.  GFTT did make a point about how the cERPPCs might be best in case you would need to go back to IS models . . . it would just be 3t light for the upgraded damage.  Or you could just say they welded 3 RL15s onto the turret.

[Istal_Devalis]

Keep in mind the penalties for IS tech teams working with Clan tech gear is still going to apply too.

[Go For The Throat]

Wasn't the entire point of this thread all about questioning what the best fan-made upgrade would be?  It's not canon but it could still be used in a campaign set in that time period.

Yes, and you could go in any direction you wanted, not just PPCs or LLs. The way I interpreted your previous post was to infer that it came that way directly from the factory, which it does not, since there is no record sheet for it. Though, you could just call ahead to the manufacturer, and say you have Clan spec gear you want installed in place if the IS tech.

Keep in mind the penalties for IS tech teams working with Clan tech gear is still going to apply too.

I know that is what the rules say, but it makes no sense to me. You cannot tell me that at this point in the game, there are still techs who know that little about Clan equipment, especially when it can be acquired so easily. You have got to be able to rent a tech from the Sharks, or send your techs to be trained by them, something.

[Go For The Throat]

Honestly I was just wondering which way people would want to go . . . the weapons are not as difficult to get as in 3050 and are pretty easy to drop in.  GFTT did make a point about how the cERPPCs might be best in case you would need to go back to IS models . . . it would just be 3t light for the upgraded damage.  Or you could just say they welded 3 RL15s onto the turret.

While you are upgrading everything else, why not get Clan MGs to save another 0.5 tons? Since two out of three PPCs can be IS, and still weigh 20 tons, you might as well make the turret lighter, for a total of four tons freed up. If you are in a dire enough situation to have to replace more than two of the PPCs back to IS versions, you are probably going to lose the turret, if not the whole tank.

[Istal_Devalis]

I know that is what the rules say, but it makes no sense to me. You cannot tell me that at this point in the game, there are still techs who know that little about Clan equipment, especially when it can be acquired so easily. You have got to be able to rent a tech from the Sharks, or send your techs to be trained by them, something.

Really? If YOU were one of the sole outlets of a specific type of gear, would you train your competitors in how to service it? :) I'm sure everything the Sea Fox sells is black box teched up the wazoo to keep people from stealing trade secrets. I'm also sure the Sea Fox are more then happy to work up a comprehensive service agreement for you. Just sign on the dotted line. Ignore the bits about your soul.

[Jayof9s]

Really? If YOU were one of the sole outlets of a specific type of gear, would you train your competitors in how to service it? :)

They aren't the sole source, most of the houses build their own clan-spec gear. The Republic's factories were almost entirely upgraded to clan specs and more than a few Combine and Suns factories are producing Clan-spec materials.

And regardless of if a realm is producing, all of them have been working with the tech for so long that it's inconceivable that their techs are too dumb to have figured it out by now when they see it every day of their careers.

Honestly, that almost seems like a rule-clarification or ask the writers type question because they have adjusted rules for the new era and this seems like one that should be on the list.

[Go For The Throat]

Really? If YOU were one of the sole outlets of a specific type of gear, would you train your competitors in how to service it? :) I'm sure everything the Sea Fox sells is black box teched up the wazoo to keep people from stealing trade secrets. I'm also sure the Sea Fox are more then happy to work up a comprehensive service agreement for you. Just sign on the dotted line. Ignore the bits about your soul.

If it kept me from having to travel x amount of light years back in the direction I just came from (which cannot be good for profits), I would give at least basic courses. I seem to remember reading somewhere (no idea what book though), that the Shark/Foxes offered technical assistance with their products. If that is the case, what is to keep me from letting my techs from sitting in on that process, and watch them at work? Or setting up some sort of CCTV monitoring device to record them?

[Istal_Devalis]

If that is the case, what is to keep me from letting my techs from sitting in on that process, and watch them at work? Or setting up some sort of CCTV monitoring device to record them?

Besides it likely being a violation of whatever service agreement they probably had you sign? Or that it might require specialized software to get around encryption to program the things? The architecture might be just close enough to cause other confusion.

Hell, look at the difference between Macs and Window based systems. The base hardware is similar enough, but the way the two work are different enough that being familiar with one wont necessarily help you with troubleshooting the other. I could fiddle through a Mac with a lot of trial an error, and knowing how PC's tend to work in general, but I'm not going to be nearly as 'fluent' as I am with Windows based systems.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

If Clantech was that much of a black box, the Inner Sphere wouldn't be able to use it in the first place.

[Go For The Throat]

Besides it likely being a violation of whatever service agreement they probably had you sign? Or that it might require specialized software to get around encryption to program the things? The architecture might be just close enough to cause other confusion.

Hell, look at the difference between Macs and Window based systems. The base hardware is similar enough, but the way the two work are different enough that being familiar with one wont necessarily help you with troubleshooting the other. I could fiddle through a Mac with a lot of trial an error, and knowing how PC's tend to work in general, but I'm not going to be nearly as 'fluent' as I am with Windows based systems.

While I can understand where you are coming from, but I do not think it is as big of a difference as what you make of it. The Inner Sphere was able to get Clan tech to work for them in the 3060s in the form of the "R" configuration Omnis during Operation Bird Dog, and Bulldog. Therefore, I just find it hard to believe that in the 80+ years since then, they still have any trouble with it.