Author Topic: (Answered) Tukayyid Combined Arms Battlefield Support rules  (Read 1582 times)

darkdaysdawn

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The new combined arms Battlefield Support types sound great -- fast and easy to use; no details to track.  Ranges and Damage Values do not work the same way in TW vs AS, obviously, and thus the Destroy Check numbers also will not work the same.  Conversion rules are thus required to use the new combined arms units in Alpha Strike, but no rules are provided.

No conversion is provided in the eratta document either.

I tried using the MUL to find AS cards for actual AS infantry and vehicle units so I could try to figure out the conversion myself, but the abstract Tukayyid units and the actual unis in the MUL do not map 1:1.

I even tried the old Alpha Strike Companion book but those conversion rules require having the full Total Warfare statistics or technical readout so they can't convert abstract Battlefield Support units.

Yes, I could play Tukayyid missions with BT:AS rules and use actual infantry and vehicle unit cards, but then I have to track all of that.  I already have 12 to 20 Mech unit cards on the table, I don't really want another dozen or so for combined arms, which is exactly why the abstract BattleField Support system exists.

Could you update the eratta document to include the BT:AS conversions of the combined arms Battlefield Support units and all associated rules, please, since this book does claim to be "Alpha Strke compatible" and as published it is not.

This is only one of many parts of the Tukayyid book wherein the authors considered only Total Warfare and not Alpha Strike.  This happens again in the ilClan book too, btw:  "We Shall Drive Them Into The Sea" calls for walls with CF 20 but no AS conversion is supplied (they should probably be CF 2 in BT:AS, but I  can't know that for sure).

Thanks. Much appreciated. 

(edited some typos)
« Last Edit: 28 October 2023, 06:53:17 by nckestrel »

nckestrel

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Battle of Tukayyid was a BattleTech Clan Invasion kickstarter stretch goal, intended to accompany the Clan Invasion box set, which is BattleTech "Total Warfare" rules.
It included rules for Elementals, but none for vehicles.  We didn't feel like Tukayyid was "right" without having vehicles, so the combined arms battlefield support rules were created so players with just those products could have vehicles in their games.

Alpha Strike support for Battle of Tukayyid was a secondary goal.  Alpha Strike Commander's Edition is needed to play Battle of Tukayyid with Alpha Strike rules, and it already covers using vehicles in Alpha Strike.  So there wasn't any need to convert the combined arms battlefield support rules to Alpha Strike. The intention was always that players using Alpha Strike would use the Alpha Strike rules for vehicles, infantry, etc.  The references to Alpha Strike using BattleField Support is for the BattleField Support that is in AC:CE, artillery, air strikes, minefields, etc.
Alpha Strike Introduction resources
Left of Center blog - Nashira Campaign for A Game of Armored Combat, TP 3039 Vega Supplemental Record Sheets

darkdaysdawn

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Ok, first of all, thank you for the explanation of your design goals and design process.  Now I will reiterate the issues...


For consumer awareness and consumer protection: 

The back of the book says, "...and compatible with Total Warfare and Alpha Strike".  It doesn't say the book is more for compatible with one game than it is with the other.

The back of the book also doesn't explain what your design goals were, or that Alpha Strike was a secondary consideration, and there's enough AS content to make it seem 100% compatible when you flip through it at the FLGS.  However, there is no way for me to know that for sure until after I've paid for the book and read a sufficient amount of it.  So, if you what mean is, "Designed for Total Warfare, but can work with Alpha Strike with some effort on your part", then put that on the book so consumers can make informed purchases. 


For game play:

As for the actual content and specifically Combined Arms Battlefield Support:  Those rules would absolutely be useful in Alpha Strike games, not just Total Warfare games.  It's only your opinion that they would not be, not mine.  Having played Alpha Strike since its first release, my experience is that having to track more than 20 units makes the game too slow to be enjoyable, and games in my group are already 10 to 20 Mechs per side (typically 10-12 vs 16-20 because certain combat commands favour heavier or lighter units).

But for the sake of argument, let's say game speed and complexity aren't a concern.  The Tukayyid campaign rules say ComStar should get a certain amount of BSPs as a bonus vs their Clan opposition who get no bonus BSPs.  Ok, so how many PV worth of infantry and vehicles is equal to 12, 24, or 36 BSPs of Tukayyid's simplified combined arms?  Do I guess?  Or, do I buy the combined arms units with BSPs first, then take full Alpha Strike units instead?  And if the latter, which unit profiles?  LRM jump platoons can do 1 damage at medium range but MG or Rifle jump platoons cannot -- which should I use?  And exactly what kind of mechanization is to be used?  The PV values for hover vs tracked vs wheeled are not equivalent because they have different capabilities, restrictions, and MV modes/values.

So while I understand your assertion that one could use actual Alpha Strike units, the book still doesn't provide enough information to make accurate choices, and as I can assure you, some game groups do not want to a lot of excess units and would very much like to use the simplified combined arms rules in Alpha Strike.  Furthermore, you imply that Alpha Strike is already easy and fast so you don't need simplified infantry and vehicles, but why then are there any Battlefield Support rules in Alpha Strike at all?  Obviously, it's because Alpha Strike is only fast and easy up to a certain point -- eventually the number of units and optional rules becomes a problem, so there are Battlefield Support rules to simulate some aspects of the game.  That is in fact what the Battlefield Support rules themselves claim.  So, again, I strongly believe you should have included complete Alpha Strike rules for both playability and for consumer protection (assuming no disclaimer or statement of the level of compatibility on the back cover).

darkdaysdawn

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Battle of Tukayyid was a BattleTech Clan Invasion kickstarter stretch goal, intended to accompany the Clan Invasion box set, which is BattleTech "Total Warfare" rules.

Point of fact:  The back of the book says, exactly, and with this exact casing, bolding, and italicization:
---
FOR USE WITH
Clan Invasion box set
MapPack: Battle of Tukayyid
and compatible with Total Warfare and Alpha Strike
---

And now the customer experience: 

Clan Invasion box set.  Check!  That's what I bought to get the models and their Alpha Stike cards.  Classic Clan Invasion era Mechs, so I definitely want these for The Battle of Tukayyid.  We're good so far.

MapPack:  Battle of Tukayyid.  Check!  Bought those because they're pretty and I want to try Alpha Strike on hexes specifically so I can use the maps because they have geography that matches the planet.  Nice, now I have models and terrain.  I'm so excited to recreate the full scale Battle of Tukayyid with my friends!

"...and compatible with Total Warefare and Alpha Strike":  Check, and check!  I bought both of those because I enjoy both systems.  Perfect, I'm good with either game now, so that means we can switch back and forth between TW and AS if we want to.  Man, Catalyst has thought of everything!  I'm so stoked!

Oh but wait...  I bought exactly the products the back of the Tukayyid book said I needed, and yet the book is not in fact fully compatible with Alpha Strike.  I can't use all the rules, and specifically the rules that were purported to make recreating the Battle of Tukayyid feasible and practical to play.  Well that's a bummer.  My friends will be sad too.

Do you see the point I'm trying to make?
« Last Edit: 11 October 2023, 15:46:12 by darkdaysdawn »

nckestrel

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This the rules question forum. We answer rules questions for rules that exist already, not make new products or expand existing products. 
There are no Alpha Strike combined arms battlefield support rules.   You're welcome to your opinion, but it's not a rules question.
Alpha Strike Introduction resources
Left of Center blog - Nashira Campaign for A Game of Armored Combat, TP 3039 Vega Supplemental Record Sheets

nckestrel

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 "The Tukayyid campaign rules say ComStar should get a certain amount of BSPs as a bonus vs their Clan opposition who get no bonus BSPs.  Ok, so how many PV worth of infantry and vehicles is equal to 12, 24, or 36 BSPs of Tukayyid's simplified combined arms?  Do I guess?  Or, do I buy the combined arms units with BSPs first, then take full Alpha Strike units instead?  And if the latter, which unit profiles?  LRM jump platoons can do 1 damage at medium range but MG or Rifle jump platoons cannot -- which should I use?  And exactly what kind of mechanization is to be used?  The PV values for hover vs tracked vs wheeled are not equivalent because they have different capabilities, restrictions, and MV modes/values."

To answer this rules question, none.  BSPs in Alpha Strike are not for infantry or vehicles.  AS:CE has the BSP options for Alpha Strike (airstrikes, artillery, minefields).  You "purchase" infantry and vehicles with PV, not with BSP, in AS.
If you want an LRM jump platoon, you pay the PV cost for it.  If you want an MG jump platoon, you pay it's PV instead. You cannot purchase them in AS with BSP.   You use the BSP as AS:CE says you use them.


Alpha Strike Introduction resources
Left of Center blog - Nashira Campaign for A Game of Armored Combat, TP 3039 Vega Supplemental Record Sheets