Off-topic Tech Level Discussion

[RifleMech]

Of the 25 IntroTech vehicles in 3058, only 7 have a post 3050 intro date and 11 have a pre-3025 date, saying "this unit always existed we just never talked about it." is still a retcon.

According to Wiki you would be correct. An Addition would be a form of Retcon. However, an Addition expands the universe. It isn't like the Retcon of the unseen where you end up not knowing which is the currant version. Or we find out that Jaime Wolf wasn't killed and is still leading the Dragoons. 

The fact that we haven't had IntroTech units in a mainline TRO since '58 and people want seems like a pretty good indicator to me, remember these boards seem to somehow concentrate the players that like 3025 the most.

It could just be TPTB pushing new and shiny. Or it could also be because most of the current IntroTech designs are extinct. Or it could be that IntroTech is on the decline in the Dark Ages.

Whatever the case IntroTech still exists so there's no reason to force players to start 100+ years in the past. Expanding the number of eras that's easy for new players to start playing in is a good thing. Having IntroTech units also expands the number of options for GMs. After all not every one has access to the latest technology or units. Some are stuck using units and tech that's hundreds of years old. Including IntroTech units would actually be in keeping with Battletech lore.

...Why not expand the BT universe?

Excellent question. I would hope TPTB would continue to expand the universe by filling in blanks and moving the timeline forward.

So I take this level of tech is not used any longer due to advances?

It does seem to be on the decline and rarely seen in frontline units of the during the Dark Ages do to tech advances. That said, IntroTech is still available and could likely be found in use by anyone not rich enough or important enough to have access to more advanced technology.

[Daryk]

100+ years in the past?  You mean 2925?  ???  :D

[Sartris]

So I take this level of tech is not used any longer due to advances?

it's used, but more and more primarily by hard-luck mercs, backwater militias, and periphery pirates as the 31st century becomes the 32nd. it remains in service around the edges because it's durable, cheap, and reliable

100+ years in the past?  You mean 2925?  ???  :D

the 30th century is the one true black hole in the BTU timeline so... yes, please give me some material here.

[Red Pins]

Excellent question. I would hope TPTB would continue to expand the universe by filling in blanks and moving the timeline forward.

Timeline?  Why?   >:D

Pick some far-out bunch of Never-Camerons, pick your new versions of "Before Landing" (BC) and "After Landing" (AD) and declare a subjective number.  I've advocated this for YEARS.

Bingo-blammo-boom-shaka-laka!  Handwavium!  Fiat Setting!

Recreate the game with different names, worlds, realms, ruling families.  The IS?  30 years that-a-way.  Start out all over, in the same universe, unknown time, new AoW tech, different tech tree options, and never the twain shall meet.  Everything that appealed to 80's players (and beginners), with the technophiles still happy.

You're welcome.

[Retry]

So I take this level of tech is not used any longer due to advances?

By "used" do you mean used by players or used in canon?  Plenty of people still use pure intro-tech, usually in 3025 settings, though some of the more classic and evergreen vehicles like the Scorpion and Warrior will find its use in later settings.  In canon, yes, though the "leading edge" tech has long since left Intro-Tech, so you'll mostly see them in forces that are really budget restrained like garrisons (including the Scorpion and Warrior).

I do like intro-tech and it's great for introducing new players (hence the name), but it's just not got as many options as other tech levels.  For Battlemechs only, Introtech has access to 2 Battlemech motive styles (out of 5) 1 structure type (out of 5), 1 engine (out of 8), 1 gyro (out of 4), 1 cockpit style (out of 5), no myomer enhancements (out of 3), 1 heat sink type (out of 4), 1 armor type (out of 16), and 1 jumping system (out of 3).  I'm almost certainly missing something out of that list.  That's not even considering the weapons, which I'm not going to bother to count.

So right out of the bat most of your parameters that you can use to differentiate the 'Mechs are fixed.  There's not nearly the variety of options that you can get with other tech levels.  Virtually all of the niches that can be covered with intro-tech has already been covered, so it's a lot harder to create an intro-tech design that stands out from the existing intro-tech lineup.  In contrast, it's a lot easier to make something unique or something that fulfills an interesting niche using higher tech levels (which have new equipment added to them over time, unlike intro-tech).  Not to mention some of the more creative canon 'Mech builds that use higher tech levels: LAMs, Superheavies, Great Turtle, those weird Manei Domini things...

Intro-tech is all well and good, especially for teaching purposes, but the fancy tech interests me more and honestly there's just much more room to flesh out the universe in that direction.

[RifleMech]

100+ years in the past?  You mean 2925?  ???  :D

TRO:3150 is 125 years after TRO:3025.

Not that I wouldn't mind more stuff for 2925.

Timeline?  Why?   >:D

Pick some far-out bunch of Never-Camerons, pick your new versions of "Before Landing" (BC) and "After Landing" (AD) and declare a subjective number.  I've advocated this for YEARS.

Bingo-blammo-boom-shaka-laka!  Handwavium!  Fiat Setting!

Recreate the game with different names, worlds, realms, ruling families.  The IS?  30 years that-a-way.  Start out all over, in the same universe, unknown time, new AoW tech, different tech tree options, and never the twain shall meet.  Everything that appealed to 80's players (and beginners), with the technophiles still happy.

You're welcome.

I wouldn't mind if there were Alternate Realities. However, I and I think others, would still like to know where the Official Time Line goes.

(snip)
Intro-tech is all well and good, especially for teaching purposes, but the fancy tech interests me more and honestly there's just much more room to flesh out the universe in that direction.

I like all kinds of tech and I agree that there's a lot more room to flesh out the universe. However, IntroTech being good for teaching purposes is why it should be available in as many eras as possible. It still being available also helps fill out the universe with militias and poor merc units and such.

Plus there's additions like alternate ammo and quirks that can help make IntroTech units more effective against more advanced ones.

[SCC]

Whatever the case IntroTech still exists so there's no reason to force players to start 100+ years in the past. Expanding the number of eras that's easy for new players to start playing in is a good thing. Having IntroTech units also expands the number of options for GMs. After all not every one has access to the latest technology or units. Some are stuck using units and tech that's hundreds of years old. Including IntroTech units would actually be in keeping with Battletech lore.

The problem is that you've got to explain what those design are doing in modern guides, they're either old designs being published again (Locust LCT-1V) or they're "all new" designs that're probably just rehashings of existing designs.

There's also no reason to start new players on IntroTech

As for expanding the universe, that's not going to work, you'd have to explain where this new faction has been all this time and there's the problem of no inbuilt fan base so lot's of people won't buy it.

[RifleMech]

The problem is that you've got to explain what those design are doing in modern guides, they're either old designs being published again (Locust LCT-1V) or they're "all new" designs that're probably just rehashings of existing designs.

How hard is it to say that a lance of Locust LCT-1Vs used by X militia used its speed to harass and delay raiding pirate force long enough for the main force to arrive and successfully defend the sprocket factory? Or that Locusts used by Y Militia were completely outclassed by more advanced scouts and were led into an ambush? Or something else? All kinds of fluff could be written.  X unit is still in use even though its old because it carries plenty of armor, and plenty of ammo for its LRMs so it can use alternate ammo loads against the newer unit types with specialty armor.

Or so they're a rehash? W Militia, not having a lot of funds, and their planet lacking advanced materials needs a new light mech for scouting and anti-infantry/crowd control duties. So they commission a new mech based on the extinct Locust. Or something. It's not that difficult.

There's also no reason to start new players on IntroTech

There's the fact that there are far fewer rules with IntroTech than there is jumping all the way in with everything from Primitive Mechs to QuadVees, LAMs SuperHeavies, Tripods with all the variety of weapons that exist. Having IntroTech available allows new players to play without being overwhelmed.

As for expanding the universe, that's not going to work, you'd have to explain where this new faction has been all this time and there's the problem of no inbuilt fan base so lot's of people won't buy it.

 ???  It's been working for 30+ years. Merc and House units have come and gone. There's the Clans, the Society, WoB, Deep Periphery realms. There also wasn't any inbuilt fan base for them. There wasn't any inbuilt fan base for and Faction in Battletech when it was first introduced. So what if a new house is introduced. It's been a minor house its whole existence, pretty much beneath everyone's notice until blank happens. Now its on the International scene.

[Czitzelberger]

i like introtech/lostech. i'm indifferent to clan invasion era clan tech, but don't really like anything after that. protomechs, tripods, superheavies, plasma weapons and all that crap are just kind of dumb imo, but that doesn't mean i want them gone, just leave them in the future stuff that i don't have to deal with.  one reason to still start people from the beginning(introtech) is to let them check it all out and play what they like.

[VensersRevenge]

There's the fact that there are far fewer rules with IntroTech than there is jumping all the way in with everything from Primitive Mechs to QuadVees, LAMs SuperHeavies, Tripods with all the variety of weapons that exist. Having IntroTech available allows new players to play without being overwhelmed.

You do realize there is a middle-ground right? While introducing players to the game with every-single advanced tech option is unfeasible, if you have no interest in introtech, then starting with it is just boring and your players will pick up on your lack of enthusiasm. I taught my friends with Star League tech, and while it adds a bit of complexity, it allows for more variety and gets Battetech to the level where I find it interesting.

[SCC]

How hard is it to say that a lance of Locust LCT-1Vs used by X militia used its speed to harass and delay raiding pirate force long enough for the main force to arrive and successfully defend the sprocket factory? Or that Locusts used by Y Militia were completely outclassed by more advanced scouts and were led into an ambush? Or something else? All kinds of fluff could be written.  X unit is still in use even though its old because it carries plenty of armor, and plenty of ammo for its LRMs so it can use alternate ammo loads against the newer unit types with specialty armor.

Or so they're a rehash? W Militia, not having a lot of funds, and their planet lacking advanced materials needs a new light mech for scouting and anti-infantry/crowd control duties. So they commission a new mech based on the extinct Locust. Or something. It's not that difficult.

The problem is most people here already have at least one of 3025, 3039, or SW, so they don't really want another identical or near identical write up on the Locust. As for re-hashes, well your example requires that the Locust go extinct or nearly so, something that CGL has been incredibly reluctant to do.

There's the fact that there are far fewer rules with IntroTech than there is jumping all the way in with everything from Primitive Mechs to QuadVees, LAMs SuperHeavies, Tripods with all the variety of weapons that exist. Having IntroTech available allows new players to play without being overwhelmed.

I might not have been clear enough here, but I was comparing it to tournament legal and Star League tech in particular and that doesn't add many new rules, and sometimes actually gets rid of rules.
[/quote]

???  It's been working for 30+ years. Merc and House units have come and gone. There's the Clans, the Society, WoB, Deep Periphery realms. There also wasn't any inbuilt fan base for them. There wasn't any inbuilt fan base for and Faction in Battletech when it was first introduced. So what if a new house is introduced. It's been a minor house its whole existence, pretty much beneath everyone's notice until blank happens. Now its on the International scene.

Maybe I was reading things wrong but I was interrupting this as suggesting creating books focusing on whole new factions whilst ignoring existing ones, which means no built in fanbase.

[Red Pins]

As for expanding the universe, that's not going to work, you'd have to explain where this new faction has been all this time and there's the problem of no inbuilt fan base so lot's of people won't buy it.

House Arano (?) disagrees with you.

And yeah, there's no reason to learn on OldTech.  But the quick-start rules download does.  You seem to forget, complexity scares people.  WH40K players laughed -LAUGHED, I tell you! - when I held up *Total Warfare.  They were more accepting of the booklet.

And who said, "Alternate Reality"?  The BTU is big enough to accommodate everything at once, just put some implausible distance between groups and say, "I don't think they know those people are over there!  Weird, eh?" .

I mean...  It worked for the Clans, right?

I've always held up that one fanfic, what was it, the one where they did the hyperspace rift thing, used DS as plug-in JS batteries and stuff.  The asteroid culture, I want to say 'Shrapnel'?

They've thrown enough plot hooks for a junior high food fight, you have a smorgasbord (joke intended) of groups you could reasonably explain being that far.

*edit- wrong book, sorry

[Red Pins]

Maybe I was reading things wrong but I was interrupting this as suggesting creating books focusing on whole new factions whilst ignoring existing ones, which means no built in fanbase.

You were INTERPRETING correctly.   :D

[Retry]

House Arano (?) disagrees with you.

The most interesting part about House Arano was the fluff, the tech level had little to do with it, and it also was preceded by a highly successful video game from HBS that centered around the region, which was picked specifically because there was little going on there.  That's not going to be a scenario you can replicate at will.

Hardware-wise, the most interesting *new* thing wasn't House Arano's intro-tech APCs, it was the Argo, and a few other fancy things from the video game that haven't been canonized yet.  (I've still got some hope for the Bullshark myself.)

[SCC]

House Arano (?) disagrees with you.

House Arano was an anomaly if not an abomination, don't use it as a guide.

And yeah, there's no reason to learn on OldTech.  But the quick-start rules download does.  You seem to forget, complexity scares people.  WH40K players laughed -LAUGHED, I tell you! - when I held up RoW book.  They were more accepting of the booklet.

That's grounds for there being a single TRO filled with IntroTech, not making a quarter or half of all TRO's IntroTech

And who said, "Alternate Reality"?  The BTU is big enough to accommodate everything at once, just put some implausible distance between groups and say, "I don't think they know those people are over there!  Weird, eh?"

I didn't say it, so I think it might have been you, just now.

I mean...  It worked for the Clans, right?

You do realise that all signs point to us never hearing from the HomeClans again, right?

I've always held up that one fanfic, what was it, the one where they did the hyperspace rift thing, used DS as plug-in JS batteries and stuff.  The asteroid culture, I want to say 'Shrapnel'?

I think know the one you speak of, it's on ffn and it's not called Shrapnel. It breaks so many rules of how BT works and seems at least in part to be a vehicle for the authors grossly uninformed political views, this last means we should probably be careful talking about talking about it.

You were INTERPRETING correctly.   :D

Are you trying to kill off BT? Such a setup won't work because something like only half of the fanbase will buy the books.

[Minemech]

1 cockpit style (out of 5)

There used to be something called a dual cockpit.

[Red Pins]

The most interesting part about House Arano was the fluff, the tech level had little to do with it, and it also was preceded by a highly successful video game from HBS that centered around the region, which was picked specifically because there was little going on there.  That's not going to be a scenario you can replicate at will.

Hardware-wise, the most interesting *new* thing wasn't House Arano's intro-tech APCs, it was the Argo, and a few other fancy things from the video game that haven't been canonized yet.  (I've still got some hope for the Bullshark myself.)

In this corner; Creation!  Billllionns of Stars, Millions of Habitable Worlds...  In the other corner; Humanity!  Able to cross Sspaaaace, colonizer of several hundred worlds...

Nothing says you have to stay next door to a Successor State.  Go *that-a-way*, and stop counting Jumps after 1,000 or some other absurd number.  Voila; deep space colony/federation/empire/kingdom - whatever.

[Red Pins]

House Arano was an anomaly if not an abomination, don't use it as a guide.

Blame the developers, they invested in it, they're the ones trying to make a profit and support it.

That's grounds for there being a single TRO filled with IntroTech, not making a quarter or half of all TRO's IntroTech.

So?  Nothing says it has to stay that way.  I see it now; (Name) TRO: 199 AL (After Landing), sequel to the spellbinding (Name) TRO: Civil War and (Name) TRO: Civil War Update.  Maybe another ten or twelve PDF exclusives - (Name) XTRO: (Name).  Nah.  They'd use recycled art.  No thanks, I'll save up to buy the next TRO with all of them in it and exclusive, never-before-seen faction-specific designs.

I wouldn't mind if there were Alternate Realities. However, I and I think others, would still like to know where the Official Time Line goes.

I didn't say it, so I think it might have been you, just now.

This guy.  Sorry for the confusion.

You do realise that all signs point to us never hearing from the HomeClans again, right?

Neither of us is a beemer, so...  Who knows?

I think know the one you speak of, it's on ffn and it's not called Shrapnel. It breaks so many rules of how BT works and seems at least in part to be a vehicle for the authors grossly uninformed political views, this last means we should probably be careful talking about talking about it.

...Like the Fortress plotline?  Fusion engines?  Stompy giant robots?  Dropships?  Jumpships?  Hyperspace?!  Rules?  To misquote Doc Brown - "Where we're going, we don't need RULES."  Make new ones.  *BOOM!*  Mind.  Blown!

And, yeah.  Politics are kinda everywhere.  Oh, well.  Fun story, though.

Are you trying to kill off BT? Such a setup won't work because something like only half of the fanbase will buy the books.

Why would it kill off BT?  Some might call it, "Appealing to a larger audience."  Were you against Clicky-tech, too?  I was.

Look, long, spliced arguments give me a headache.  Just pick one point or list them in order, or something.  I'm enjoying the discussion, let's not end it by Mod intervention

[RifleMech]

You do realize there is a middle-ground right? While introducing players to the game with every-single advanced tech option is unfeasible, if you have no interest in introtech, then starting with it is just boring and your players will pick up on your lack of enthusiasm. I taught my friends with Star League tech, and while it adds a bit of complexity, it allows for more variety and gets Battetech to the level where I find it interesting.

Absolutely. New players will totally pick up on your level of enthusiasm. And if starting with SLDF tech works, that's great! I don't think IntroTech is the only entry into Battletech. You're experience proves that it isn't. However, I do think that it's the easiest and that some players will appreciate that.



 

The problem is most people here already have at least one of 3025, 3039, or SW, so they don't really want another identical or near identical write up on the Locust. As for re-hashes, well your example requires that the Locust go extinct or nearly so, something that CGL has been incredibly reluctant to do.

And how many years there were where those TROs out of print. How are new players to buy those TROs if they can't find them? And again why tell someone they have to start in 3025 when you're at 3050? Why make them start having to learn all the past and not start at the present?

As for the Locust and other mechs being extinct. The MUL does not list it as being available during the Dark Ages. In fact no mech from TRO:3025 is listed as being available. Either there's been a big error or they're extinct.

I might not have been clear enough here, but I was comparing it to tournament legal and Star League tech in particular and that doesn't add many new rules, and sometimes actually gets rid of rules.

Tournament legal is still more complex than IntroTech. In fact its only gotten more so as time has gone by. I'm okay with that but it can be overwhelming to a new player.  That's why IntroTech is still a thing.

Maybe I was reading things wrong but I was interrupting this as suggesting creating books focusing on whole new factions whilst ignoring existing ones, which means no built in fanbase.

How do you focus on a faction without mentioning their neighbors and their relations to them? Without being way out in the deep periphery and then, how do you do that without talking about their past and the factions they left?

That's grounds for there being a single TRO filled with IntroTech, not making a quarter or half of all TRO's IntroTech

A single TRO would be okay for a single era. Era's change as does the history of the unit. Lets say we have a TRO: Six-Day War and the Sherman is included. Which would make more sense? To have the write up to talk about the American' use of the Sherman during II or Israel's use of the Sherman during the Six-Day War?

I'm thinking writing about the Sherman's service during the Six-Day war would make more sense, since that's what the TRO is about. If I'm right, why not update other units histories to reflect their use in newer eras? I was thinking just a couple units but sure it could be an entire TRO. That might even be better. A TRO for each TechLevel for each era. One for Tournament Legal, "Frontline" units, one for militia's and such, and one for the R&D department.

[RifleMech]

So?  Nothing says it has to stay that way.  I see it now; (Name) TRO: 199 AL (After Landing), sequel to the spellbinding (Name) TRO: Civil War and (Name) TRO: Civil War Update.  Maybe another ten or twelve PDF exclusives - (Name) XTRO: (Name).  Nah. They'd use recycled art.  No thanks, I'll save up to buy the next TRO with all of them in it and exclusive, never-before-seen faction-specific designs.

I'd get them, even if they did recycle art. I'd get it even if it were XTRO: Ancient Infantry with platoons full of surprising ancient tech. Now that I think of it, I really want that book.  ;D

[truetanker]

I for one, wish TPTB would just fill in the previously mentioned, but never stat'd, units.

TT

[Cubby]

I for one, wish TPTB would just fill in the previously mentioned, but never stat'd, units.

TT

We should have stuck them in the coloring book. Fun for the whole family!

[RifleMech]

I for one, wish TPTB would just fill in the previously mentioned, but never stat'd, units.

TT

Would be nice. :)   Would be nicer if they filled in previously mentioned but never stated weapons.

We should have stuck them in the coloring book. Fun for the whole family!

Now I have this picture in my head of a big coloring book filled with units from various TROs and Sourcebooks for us to color.

When can I order it?  :)

[Cubby]

Now I have this picture in my head of a big coloring book filled with units from various TROs and Sourcebooks for us to color.

When can I order it?  :)

Soon. We just announced it:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=66405.msg1590963#msg1590963

[massey]

TROs have never pretended to be the end all, be all list of what units are available.

Obviously with mechs, eventually you hit a point where every feasible combination has been covered.  There are only so many 55 ton mechs you can build before you start covering the same ground, or people scratch their heads and say "why would anyone ever do this?"  Still, I think there are plenty of possibilities for new intro-tech machines, particularly if you play around with Quirks and are willing to give a little background info.

Perhaps you have Planet X, a fairly unimportant world 3 jumps from the border, and they fought off an invasion from the Combine 30 years ago.  The war moved on and the armies left (the rumored Star League cache was a bust), but they've got a bunch of salvage that they tried to build into a defense force.  Maybe they've got a company full of damaged Jenners and a company full of damaged Panthers, and they've salvaged them together and now they've got 5 lances of Frankenmechs in 3 different designs.  That's something you could definitely play with.

One thing I have enjoyed doing is coming up with reasonable justifications for seemingly strange design choices.  We all know the Jagermech sucks, right?  Except in the right circumstances, it's one truly lethal S.O.B.  Having a few in your Battalion means that (depending on your rules set) conventional fighters and VTOLs need to stay the hell away.  I think there's a lot of room for more Firestarter-style specialist mechs.  They were designed at a time when you had excess production capacity, and they stuck around because you needed any mech you could get your hands on in the 3rd SW.

But to make 3025 tech really interesting, you have to get away from designing in a vacuum, aiming only for the most efficient use of weight.  You have to remember that people are making do with what they have available.

Vehicle-wise, you can go hog-wild.  You can have a 9/14 tracked vehicle with 4 flamers and a rear-mounted AC-2 if you can come up with a story about it.  Individual planets  have their own needs.

[Weirdo]

Vehicle-wise, you can go hog-wild.  You can have a 9/14 tracked vehicle with 4 flamers and a rear-mounted AC-2 if you can come up with a story about it.  Individual planets  have their own needs.

I WOULD DRIVE THE HELL OUT OF THAT. :drool:

[glitterboy2098]

Vehicle-wise, you can go hog-wild.  You can have a 9/14 tracked vehicle with 4 flamers and a rear-mounted AC-2 if you can come up with a story about it.  Individual planets  have their own needs.

I WOULD DRIVE THE HELL OUT OF THAT. :drool:

call it the Archer

[Weirdo]

I would call it Field-Gun-B-Gone, its job to race across the battlefield and murder dangerous concentrations of infantry so that mechs don't have to. The tracked movement means it's less likely to get parked in the process. The cannon is for light AA duty, or to plink at pursuers while fleeing when it's used as a patrol vehicle and runs into heavy opposition.

[Retry]

Vehicle-wise, you can go hog-wild.  You can have a 9/14 tracked vehicle with 4 flamers and a rear-mounted AC-2 if you can come up with a story about it.  Individual planets  have their own needs.

You can't, actually.  An AC/2 with ammo simply will not fit on an intro-tech tracked 9/14 vehicle of any size, let alone the flamers and whatever armor you want to add...

[massey]

That's a great use for it. :)

One thing I believe Battletech is missing is enough low budget specialty vehicles.  Any time a mech has a head-scratching design decision ("Why did they do XYZ?"), I think maybe it was a hard counter for some tactic that isn't in use anymore.  And you keep them in service so people don't try it again.

Back when infernos were instant death to all vehicles, I figured the Wasp was just a dirt cheap vehicle murderer.  You spam Wasps and Stingers so that planetary forces see the futility of massed conventional vehicles.  Of course, that produces a market for Bug Hunters (like the Jenner), and so on and so forth.  Get too out of balance (looking at you, Steiner) and suddenly you're vulnerable to those tactics again.

You don't need advanced tech to have defined roles for units, and then counters for those specialists.  In fact it often makes your specialists too expensive.