Author Topic: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews  (Read 25232 times)

Jim1701

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #60 on: 12 December 2012, 13:51:52 »
Interesting, why do you reckon that? I'd consider them ideal for Omnis since you can swap them out when you want sustained firepower instead?

He didn't say they weren't effective on omni's just that they are more effective on standard mechs.  Probably because, like MML's, they give a standard mech a little more flexibility that it might not otherwise have.

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #61 on: 12 December 2012, 13:54:44 »
All SRM/LRM/both launchers do that, which is why I love them.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #62 on: 12 December 2012, 14:26:19 »
We need iOS MML launchers.

(No we don't.)
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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #63 on: 12 December 2012, 14:32:48 »
We fer-damn-sure do! Take a 'mech into battle, and NOBODY knows what's inside until it lets rip! >:D
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Pa Weasley

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #64 on: 12 December 2012, 15:09:00 »
Like a tactical pinata?

Weirdo

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #65 on: 12 December 2012, 15:12:27 »
That need to exist. Right. Now.
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TigerShark

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #66 on: 12 December 2012, 20:35:36 »
::watches the thread derail and plunge off a bridge::
  W W W . M E K W A R S - D O M I N I O N . C O M

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ItsTehPope

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #67 on: 12 December 2012, 20:47:20 »
::watches the thread derail and plunge off a bridge::

Sweet.  Spindrift deployments.
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Pa Weasley

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #68 on: 12 December 2012, 21:23:43 »
::watches the thread derail and plunge off a bridge::
Tactical Pinata (Advanced)
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2-6 SRMs
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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #69 on: 12 December 2012, 21:33:07 »
I think that pinata should go in "Record Sheets: 3075 Unabridged (No Really, We Mean It This Time)", or RS:3075UNRWMITT lol
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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #70 on: 13 December 2012, 04:20:48 »
Well, one of the Quickdraw handhelds was 12 tons worth of RL-10s.
Illegal, there is a limit of 6 weapons per HH.

Weirdo, I've had weirder ideas. Take 1 ML and three HS, wrap in ton of armor, weld one to the back of each hand of your Atlas, net result, your Atlas gains 2 ML and you lose the abilty to pick stuff up. Mag-clamps, stick stuff like ECM or Anti-Missile systems to your 'Mech for when you up against the WoB

Paul

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #71 on: 13 December 2012, 15:42:54 »
Illegal, there is a limit of 6 weapons per HH.

And where do you suppose that limit came from?


Quote
Weirdo, I've had weirder ideas. Take 1 ML and three HS, wrap in ton of armor, weld one to the back of each hand of your Atlas, net result, your Atlas gains 2 ML and you lose the abilty to pick stuff up. Mag-clamps, stick stuff like ECM or Anti-Missile systems to your 'Mech for when you up against the WoB

Yeah, you can't single-hand wield Handhelds though. It's a single item that requires both hands to use.
The solution is just ignore Paul.

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #72 on: 13 December 2012, 16:13:13 »
And where do you suppose that limit came from?

Connecticut?
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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #73 on: 16 December 2012, 23:47:51 »
My thoughts on the 3067u mechs

Light mechs

Red Shift RDG-3A: An obvious c3i upgrade, allthough I wouldnt have changed the basic weapons loadout. 4 ER meds make it one of the most expensive 20 tons IS mechs out there. In c3 networks one has to save BV whenever possible. This mech might likely block LOS most of the time or put intervening woods between itself and its target. 2 MPLs are more of a threat vs faster mechs than 4 regular or ER mediums.

Brigand LDT-X3: A decent upgrade. I like the light PPC a lot. Personally if I had to include anti infantry weapons I would have installed 2 SPL instead of the flamers.

Brigand LDT-X4: A dubious upgrade. This mech has no way to fine tune the heat. Turning DHS on and off is not worth the hassle on this mech. 2 MPLs instead of the LPPC and 1 ER med would have made more sense on a mech that is supposed to spend as much time as it can adjacent to opposing units.

Anubis ABS-4C: An OK upgrade.

Osiris OSR-5D: So its named Osiris, though it doesnt resemble the other 2 variants at all. I object mainly on aesthetic grounds here. Assymetric distribution for the jump jets IMO is lazy, though TBH the original 8/12/4 movement profile raises the question why waste 2 tons on JJs that this mech is never going to use.

Razorback RZK-10S: An OK upgrade. Its severe flaw is the small cockpit. 6/9 speed puts it at the lower end of the speed spectrum in its weight class so it runs the risk of spending more time prone than kiting the opponent with its SNPPC.

Razorback RZK-10T: A decent upgrade of the RZK-9T. Even though it abandons its LFE shtick the 7/11 movement is a big improvement for its role.

Gurkha GUR-6G: I dont see much use for this variant. There is the GUR-4G for close range work and the GUR-2G brings a fast ER-PPC to the table. The 6G sacrifices a little bit or armor (a rather minor issue, though the CT is not Gauss proof anymore) for the ER-LL, 2 ER-ML and the additional DHS. Since it allready abandons its signature quad ER-SL mount in the left arm, why not go one ER-SL further and keep the old armor value. All in all the increase in BV is not worth the firepower increase. As a spotter, or light mech in general, its not very efficent to try to be a generalist. Just pick a focus and let the heavier units cover the rest.

Gurkha GUR-8G: As much as I would like this variant, it has too many problems. The BV is very high for its use, it doesnt control heat very well and it mounts a small cockpit. I realize that WOB units tend to slap TSM on everything regardless of the weapons loadout but running in alpha striking and hoping that in the following turn a decent opportunity for the TSM enhanced physical attack presents itself relies on too many contingencies.

Stiletto STO-4C: The better Anubis ABS-4C.

Medium mechs

Chimera CMA-2K: Its useful, if very expensive. It looks as a random bland custom that one can pull from any of the various Battletech forums out there though. So its a Chimera, cause its 40 tons, what else resembles a Chimera...?

Sha Yu SYU-6B: So Liao is the dual SNPPC faction  ;). I feel for them though. Seeing what they are usually stuck with compared to their neighbouring Fed Suns and Free Worlds League factions, they need every bit of help they can get. Of course the stealth armor is superfluous, but I guess its a Sha Yu thing. A nice alternative pick to the Sha Yu-4B.

Bloodhound B3-HND: A repurposed FWL 7/11 medium mech. TBH a wasted opportunity to modernize this strong mech. Its only saving grace is its cheap BV and the fact it still mounts 2 MPLs. The B-Pod and fluid gun are to gimmicky to be really useful IMO.

Blue Flame BLF-40: A nice upgrade, even though rear mounted wepons are a waste. 3 light PPCs tied to a TC is allways useful.

Hellspawn HSN-10G: A nice upgrade here as well. The HSN-7D was allways underappreciated as a design IMO, and this one does a good job of modernizing it. My only objections would be the missing 6th JJ and the assymetric JJs, the former one isn´t that big of a deal, while the later is purely aesthetic and could have been easily avoided.

Hellspawn HSN-10SR: The obligatory iJJ variant I suppose. At least this one doesnt sacrifice ground speed to mount them. While I dislike the playstyle iJJs entice players to and the way their usefullness gets overhyped, I dont mind this variant too much. I cant exactly tell why, so kudos to whoever did this variant ;o)

Tessen TSN-C3M: The SNPPC is superfluous on this mech, especially trading the iNARC for it. It can barely fire it while walking w/o losing speed and the "reverse" targeting computer effect haywire pods have is to useful in comparison.

UZL-8S Uziel: The second iJJ variant. It sacrifices ground speed for the 8 jump range. Dubious tradeoff though the firepower is nice and whole package is not to expensive. Someone compared it to the Wraith in another thread. With a 5/8 ground movement it cant replace a Wraith, a Lightray or a Stealth.

Cronus CNS-TD9: This could be an interesting pick, simply because of the very low BV and the VSP Laser+TC combo. Its drawbacks are the huge waste of tonnage that are claws. It´s not easy to hit with punches and adding an additonal +1 to hit penalty for a little bit extra damage doesnt help. That would be ok though, but this Cronus mounts 2 of the 3 VSPs in the arms, so it cant punch after it fires its weapons, no matter what the to hit number is. In summary 3 hyper accurate lasers on a fast medium for less than 1K BV is a bargain.

Lightray LGH-7W: This upgrade of the 4Y has a tough time to compete with the 4W or the 5W. It is arguably better than the 4Y, but TBH any mech that replaces those SRM 2s is an improvement. IMO the 4W (and to a lesser extent the 5W) is the premier WOB medium, the unit I like to see the least in an enemy force if I play a WOB player.

Heavy mechs:

Argus AGS-5D: A well designed Argus. Its high BV price tag is its obvious disadvantage. I doubt it will see many c3 links in BV balanced games for that reason alone, after all its just 1 longish range weapon, even though it does 15 damage per hit.

Argus AGS-6F: A even better designed Argus. It took the Fed Sunners a long time to design something close to the Thunder-1L. To be fair the Thunder suffers only because of the silly placement of its AC20 in RA and RT. Its 3 MPLs are superior for its job though. I guess Cap-Con players can be thankful that this Argus downgrades the engine to a LFE one. Otherwise I can very well see the temptation of adding a TC for those 4 tons of (precision)-AC ammo.

Ninja-To NJT-4: I could have bet money, that if copy of the Men Shen F came out it would be a variant of the Ninja-To. 2 SNPPC + TC on a 6/9 moving mech cant be bad.

Verfolger VR6-C: It takes a bit time to get used to seeing a Verfolger w/o the LBX. At least it gets the perks of the MML: low BV and insane short range firepower. Its a very good unit.

Verfolger VR6-T: This variant lacks a bit of focus. It would be better to either downgrade the MPL to another regular or ER-ML and upgrade the SNPPC to another LPL or do it the other way around: 2 SNPPCs and 2 MPLs.

No-Dachi NDA-3S: Its hard to not value VSP Lasers. They are severely under BVed and make even mediocre units dangerous, let alone a strong unit like the No-Dachi. The mace is a gimmick though. If its +1 to hit with its very rarely worth the risk of making difficult PSR after the miss. If its +2 to hit with the mace is utterly useless. It depends on whether rules text or table entries take precedence. It should be rules text IMO, to make this weapon somewhat useful. Maybe I missed the errata, but it could be an oversight.

White Flame WHF-4C: The best White Flame variant so far. No AMS torso bomb, a TAG and 5 lasers with an affordable price TAG. Its still a quad with all its limitations but not atrocious.

Lao Hu LHU-3L: I am not a fan of this variant. Both weapons the RAC and the plasma rifle are very expensive. The TC is not of an incentive to pay 2k BV for a mech that has these medium range weapons.

Lao Hu LHU-4E: Finally a worthy opponent to the Fed Sunners Warhammer-9D, but in good old Liao manner intentionally gimped. In this particular case with a small cockpit, It seems that the designer tried to balance this by trying to slip through a flippy arm design. I realize that nearly all mechs should be flippy arms if possible but to me thats kinda cheap. 4 variants of Lao Hu have the same arm actuator layout and this one is the exception? Less rocket launchers and more cockpit and you have a mech with davionesque level of quality.

Perseus P1E: The Gauss, large and medium VSP for less than 1700BV lets you overlook the "junk" of the rest of its payload. rear mounted laser, communication equipment, OS-SRM, vehicular grenade launcher, etc. I suspect in most games that equipment acts as non explosive crit soaks. Reminds me very much of the a War Dog, also a very flawed desing but still capable.

Perseus P1P: The MRM is invaluable when shooting buildings or clearing mines or woods. Other than that this variant might do some serious short range damage if it hits and the RAC doesnt jam. To me thats to many stars that have to align for this variant to compete with the existing Perseus variants.

Perseus P1W: Interesting variant. Expensive, but it´s weapons on this chassis have their price. A situational pick I suppose.

Thanatos TNS-4T: A downgrade of an allready mediocre mech. I dont see why it would be picked instead of a Templar C for example. A short ranged mech with 4/6 speed and AC20 (LBX or otherwise) didnt really work out in introductory era play (all the Hunchback fans notwithstanding) in a level 2 environment or standard era play its but a expensive target. The Templar C at least has a substantional armor advantage, flippy arms and an ER-PPC.

Thanatos TNS-6S: 4/6/6 movement profile dont impress me with this mech. The long range damage is what you would expect in a clan invasion era heavy IS mech. It sacrifices to much for these jump jets with no pulse or TC to offset the jumping penalties.

Assault mechs:

Legacy LGC-04-WVR: A gimmicky mech. There is a mech with the same firepower at half the weight and allmost twice the speed in this very RS Book.. ;o)

Legacy LGC-05: I get the Archangel kind of compact engine and gyro, but were 2 jump jets really necessary?

Templar TLR1-OD: Someone mentioned that this variant was in the mechwarrior games. It doesnt look like a Templar to me. Again its more of an aesthetics  issue. The Templar lacked the symmetry, given their placement of the endosteel slots. The right arm was the place for the ballistic weapon(s). Gameplay wise it has heat issues, which the Templars also didnt have. LGR and X-LPL are good weapons. This assembly though doesnt work well.

Templar TLR1-OE: A very good C3 master config, even though it doesnt mount a ballistic weapon, being a Templar in particular and a Fed Sun unit in general.

Templar TLR1-OF: This c3 master variant isnt my cup of tea. Its not bad per se, but the 3 MPLs are kinda wasted on a master unit. I dont see the need for jump jets either. c3 networks rely on precise positioning more than regular units allready do. Wasting to-hit numbers with a jump in a game where the opponent is very likely to be eager to rush the c3 network is not ideal. Using the tonnage for weapons that help you while the opponent is still away is in general more efficient.

Templar TLR1-OG: The best Templar variant in this book by far. A nice take on the B variant I guess. Very cheap, long range, crit seeking, c3 slave. This variant has everything.

Templar TLR1-OH: Dual MRM30 on a Templar..The Apollo make them tolerable until you roll a 2 on the missile cluster table. I know that the fluff supposedly states that MRMs and c3 are a good combination. In actual gameplay they underperform a lot.

Templar TLR1-OI: A nice c3 slave variant. The Gauss is where it belongs. A mini Thunderhawk, with less range and better survivability. 2.2k BV is adequate but not cheap.

Akuma AKU-2X: A slow medium ranged brawler. Its hard to find a place for this one. Make that mech somehow 4/6 fast and its decent. IMO 3/5 speed is insufficient for its weapons. The c3 doesnt mitigate this much. Its rather expensive allowing the oppoent to field even more against it.

Akuma AKU-2XK: The RAC 5 is worse than the LBX10 in the 2X variant while the MMLs are better than the MRM. If I had to choose between those two I´d field the 2XK.

Sagittaire SGT-9D: This variant is now a generic jumping assault. The 8R has a niche and is exceptional in its role. A Nightstar-9FC upgraded with endosteel and some minor adjustments could be fitted with a c3 Master and would be essentially the same mech. It would have the speed advantage of 4/6 though, which is crucial, especially when trying to bring range 18 weapons into range in a c3 network.

Sagittaire SGT-10X: Well this one is over the top. Everything that the 8R does, this variant can do as well, with some slight differences. An interesting Sagittaire indeed. Cheap too.

Fafnir FNR-5WB: 4 plasma rifles on a slow mech for 2,5k BV is not a good deal. How that mech is supposed to work is puzzling.

Fafnir FNR-6U: I guess these Lyrans are never going to learn. It didn´t work on the Nightstar-9SS, nor does it work on the AC20 King Crabs. Besides the weapon placement is very un-fafnirlike.

Vanquisher VGR-7U: Not a useful Vanquisher variant. The only time it will be able to use its TSM is if the opponent chooses to not walk away from it. Its zombieness isnt that big of an advantage either. Just knock it over and watch it KO itself trying desperately to get into range, cause w/o long range weapons it has no other options.

Vanquisher VGR-7V: Better weapons than the 7U, but I still cant see that variant being more useful than the basic 2A model.









Charlie Tango

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #74 on: 17 December 2012, 10:38:20 »


Vanquisher VGR-7U: Not a useful Vanquisher variant. The only time it will be able to use its TSM is if the opponent chooses to not walk away from it. Its zombieness isnt that big of an advantage either. Just knock it over and watch it KO itself trying desperately to get into range, cause w/o long range weapons it has no other options.


Think about fighting in cities, against infantry or vehicles...

That 40-pt kick dropping a Medium building hex on a pesky infantry unit inside makes them go "squish" nicely.


Vanquisher VGR-7V: Better weapons than the 7U, but I still cant see that variant being more useful than the basic 2A model.

Hunh.  You don't see a use for a 'Mech that can dish *75pts* of damage while running and remaining heat neutral?

I'd use it as the focal point of an assault. 
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Youngblood

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #75 on: 17 December 2012, 13:10:26 »
It's not the focal point if all one does is duel other 'Mechs in a BV-balanced vacuum.

EDIT: Not saying that isn't a legitimate way to play, but well, you know the Jihad and all that.
« Last Edit: 17 December 2012, 13:35:07 by Youngblood »

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #76 on: 17 December 2012, 13:45:31 »
BV-balanced or not, an assault is not a duel. It's a massive wall of metal and troops moving with the sole objective of getting to a designated place and then making sure that nobody is left standing in that place that isn't an explicit friendly.
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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #77 on: 17 December 2012, 14:07:25 »
I don't think Lagbreaker's assessment is bad, but reflects how he plays the game.  From the perspective of a player whose group relies heavily on C-Bill costs and BV for force building, favors mostly optimized designs over those with story and character, but which doesn't run a lot of conventional forces, his evaluation seems pretty solid.

As the creator of the LHU-4E, I'm glad you were mostly impressed by it's design.  Regarding competing with "Davionesque" design quality, I have no interest in designing perfectly min-maxed BattleMechs.  I wanted to design the kind of 'Mech the CCAF would want, but not one that compromised what made the Lao Hu the Lao Hu.  The rocket launchers preserve the large missile battery which is part of the Lao Hu's image.  The small cockpit just means the LHU-4E is a 'Mech the CCAF saves for their better pilots.

Youngblood

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #78 on: 17 December 2012, 15:33:46 »
I don't think Lagbreaker's assessment is bad, but reflects how he plays the game.  From the perspective of a player whose group relies heavily on C-Bill costs and BV for force building, favors mostly optimized designs over those with story and character, but which doesn't run a lot of conventional forces, his evaluation seems pretty solid.

My sentiments exactly, but I am a little incredulous at how one looks at a design that carries two different types of Flamers and doesn't see what it's obviously useful for.

3rdCrucisLancers

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #79 on: 17 December 2012, 15:34:35 »
Making s'mores?
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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #80 on: 17 December 2012, 15:37:16 »
...so you load the Bloodhound's Fluid Gun with marshmallow cream?
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3rdCrucisLancers

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #81 on: 17 December 2012, 15:39:09 »
...so you load the Bloodhound's Fluid Gun with marshmallow cream?

Sure. "Marshmallow cream".
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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #82 on: 17 December 2012, 15:40:42 »
I don't want to know...
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Youngblood

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #83 on: 17 December 2012, 15:45:51 »
Isn't the cream that marshmallows are made of just...waaaiiit.

Charlie Tango

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #84 on: 18 December 2012, 09:36:31 »
 [copper]

All right now, don't make me break out the "clean and tasteful" clause folks...

/  [copper]
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Youngblood

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #85 on: 18 December 2012, 09:58:58 »
Rest in peace, 3067u thread.  I waited three years for you, and you were good to me in the end. :'(

Kit deSummersville

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #86 on: 18 December 2012, 10:05:26 »

Akuma AKU-2XK: The RAC 5 is worse than the LBX10 in the 2X variant

Why is that?
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Youngblood

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #87 on: 18 December 2012, 10:42:46 »
Why is that?

I'm going to take a wild guess and say less range, less damage concentration compared to Slug, less critseek compared to Clustershot, less accurate compared to Clustershot.  Also jams and burns through ammo more quickly, and more heat during 3shot or more.
« Last Edit: 18 December 2012, 10:46:44 by Youngblood »

TigerShark

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #88 on: 18 December 2012, 11:04:17 »
The RAC/5 is a dreadful weapon. Its Battle Value is proven to not account for jamming, let alone at a 16.65% chance v. 2.77% for a 2 (UAC). The range is awful and the cluster table maxes out at a 66.66% hit rate for the shots. Not a very good trade-off for the tonnage spent.

The LB-10X never jams, has 20% more range, crit-seeking Cluster rounds and doesn't require a minimum of (3) tons of ammunition to operate. There's almost no situation I wouldn't choose an LB-X over an RAC.
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martian

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Re: IS 3067u 'Mech reviews
« Reply #89 on: 18 December 2012, 11:10:34 »
...
The LB-10X never jams, has 20% more range, crit-seeking Cluster rounds and doesn't require a minimum of (3) tons of ammunition to operate. There's almost no situation I wouldn't choose an LB-X over an RAC.

I am not sure I understand to that underlined part. RACs do not have to be supplied with three tons of ammo ...