Author Topic: Aviation Pictures Part Trois  (Read 198888 times)

Fat Guy

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #720 on: 12 April 2018, 07:22:50 »
Hmm...good idea.

And how about an aircraft that might have been:



It actually did get produced.

In China as the J-10.   ;)

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Cannonshop

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #721 on: 12 April 2018, 13:09:28 »
The F-35? At this stage, I'm just like; "Do it. I dare you. Bring it the heck ON."

Because if it can do 85%+ of what's claimed it'll be AWESOME.

Anything less than that, it will go down in history as either the M16 of aircraft or the biggest waste of money of all time. Because for the ammount of $$$ being put into it, at this stage, doctrinally and technically we need to be AT LEAST 85% right on this one.

And if it fails? Well...I do like to watch the world burn.

If it does 15% of what the claims were, it wouldn't be a non-functional testbed 20 years after adoption. 
Perhaps meaning that the M16 initially had some teething problems that needed to be worked out, but after that has gone onto a 50 year service life.
difference being, the 'teething problems' of the M-16 were resolved in a matter of months, and the base design was a down-scale of another rifle that already worked, and had foreign sales (the AR-10), and the M-16 was not given a bottomless well of funding without a field-ready example over the course of now 4 administrations, covering 3 decades, (1990s to present), while the rest of the world continued to improve and refine methods for countering it's chief 'advantage' over other, better airframes (the Stealth concepts underlying the layout, build, even materials have been the target of every research establishment in the world-not to copy, but to counter, since the eighties.)

again, "Warload, range, and role".  The F-35 can't perform any of it's stated roles, (Much like the F-111, only without competing programs that actually get results and cancel the damn thing after a decade) what it CAN do, is keep Lockheed in texas open, and keep thousands of engineers and PR people employed trying to make it 'work' (kinda like Fusion: it's gonna have the bugs worked out 'any day now' for the last 20 years in the case of the F-35, just like Fusion's been 'twenty years down the road' since the 1950's.)

it's what isn't being delivered that is the problem-I'm sure they're racking up all kinds of hours working out how to sell it, how to make it do 1/10th what the tender claimed it would do, how to get it to perform up to a sortie rate of, say, the F-117A (but with an even smaller bomb load, shorter fuel range, higher maintenance cost, and more restrictive flying environment...)

but the root of the design is already planned for a warfighting paradigm that it not only could not fill, but has already outpaced it.  It's kinda like using a Million Dollar smart bomb to paste a thousand dollar pickup truck driven not by a drug lord or high-ranking terrorist, but Joe the frikking mailman.  it isn't fit to fight other aircraft, it isn't fit for close air support, it isn't fit for medium, never mind long, range strike missions.

The litany of vulnerabilities we KNOW about from government documents, the hearings on the testing program, the results of those programs, the litany of 'fixes', it more and more resembles the Yak-38, and that's a very bad thing to resemble.
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Bedwyr

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #722 on: 12 April 2018, 13:29:13 »
what it CAN do, is keep Lockheed in texas open, and keep thousands of engineers and PR people employed trying to make it 'work'

And that right there is where things start to edge into politics and that's where I step in. The subject is now closed for discussion. Please take it elsewhere if you want to continue debating.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #723 on: 12 April 2018, 14:46:12 »


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DoctorMonkey

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #724 on: 12 April 2018, 15:09:20 »
fighters coming out of the sun - the only image I can find
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #725 on: 12 April 2018, 15:18:46 »
have an original.. :)

(Apocalypse Now)
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #726 on: 12 April 2018, 20:42:11 »


i don't remember anything about this movie except that it was bad

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #727 on: 12 April 2018, 20:50:28 »
I remember one scene where the female love interest used a bunch of parts from her helicopter to build a shoulder-launch mount for a Hellfire missile.
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Dave Talley

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #728 on: 12 April 2018, 21:06:14 »
I remember one scene where the female love interest used a bunch of parts from her helicopter to build a shoulder-launch mount for a Hellfire missile.

I thought it was a stinger, but yeah this sucked, tried redoing all the aerial scenes from Top Guns using helps
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Feenix74

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #729 on: 12 April 2018, 21:25:56 »
Tommy Lee Jones doing his best Tommy Lee Jones impression (so think The Fugitive / US Marshals but as US Army helo pilots) is about the only good thing about that movie.

Brad Little (Tommy Lee Jones): "Mr. Preston, this operation will be a failure if we all die!"

Brad Little (Tommy Lee Jones): "Rules of engagement: one, whoever sees the other person first is the winner; two, whoever gets seen first is toast."

Incoming fire has the right of way.

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CrossfirePilot

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #730 on: 12 April 2018, 21:35:52 »
I seem to remember it was a Stinger as well. But yeah it sucked.  Top Gun in Helicopters, Days of Thunder was Top Gun in Cars. Even 30 years ago they were running out of ideas. 

Cannonshop

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #731 on: 12 April 2018, 22:18:22 »
I seem to remember it was a Stinger as well. But yeah it sucked.  Top Gun in Helicopters, Days of Thunder was Top Gun in Cars. Even 30 years ago they were running out of ideas.

It was a stinger, but that doesn't stop the movie from being quite possibly one of the worst movies made in the eighties.  one of the more amazing things to come out of it is that Tommy Lee Jones and Nick cage managed to still have careers after.

one of the plane types My Stepfather worked on in the early sixties as a camera tech:

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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #732 on: 12 April 2018, 22:32:11 »
I remember one scene where the female love interest used a bunch of parts from her helicopter to build a shoulder-launch mount for a Hellfire missile.

Nah, it was a stinger, and she didn't cobble together a launcher, it was, for some reason, already an infantry launcher with some essential parts stored in the helo. Not sure that makes it better...
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Cannonshop

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #733 on: 12 April 2018, 22:36:00 »
Nah, it was a stinger, and she didn't cobble together a launcher, it was, for some reason, already an infantry launcher with some essential parts stored in the helo. Not sure that makes it better...

that's actually standard equipment with most stinger-pack type systems, (admittedly, I"m working from memory dealing with the first gen Avenger crews.) The Missile comes in a sealed round, and that sealed round can be swapped from the vehicle mount to an infantry mount pretty easily.
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #734 on: 13 April 2018, 04:38:35 »
The only good thing about that film is a Saab J-35 Draken used in some scenes. I love that plane.



Seriously. It looks amazing. It's like a 1950's vision of the future.
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Sharpnel

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #735 on: 13 April 2018, 07:04:32 »
And then there's her more beautiful descendent, the J-37 Viggen

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Fat Guy

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #736 on: 13 April 2018, 14:17:25 »
If you're going to post a Viggen, make sure it's in that bitchin' splinter camouflage.

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I am Belch II

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #737 on: 13 April 2018, 15:17:35 »
The simulator part in Firebirds was the best part. About the 3 min part is maybe some of the best acting by a Mr. Nick Cage.


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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #738 on: 13 April 2018, 15:28:02 »
I like the look of the Draken more than I like the Viggen, but they are both amongst my favourite "modern" planes.
I'm also quite fond of the J29 Tunnan ("Barrel") and was very happy when I got to see one flying a couple of years back.
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #739 on: 13 April 2018, 15:56:40 »
Saab sure does know how to build a pretty plane. Even Gripen is, if not the best looking of the modern generation, at least high on the list.

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #740 on: 13 April 2018, 17:15:51 »
The simulator part in Firebirds was the best part. About the 3 min part is maybe some of the best acting by a Mr. Nick Cage.


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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #741 on: 13 April 2018, 18:27:42 »
The simulator part in Firebirds was the best part. About the 3 min part is maybe some of the best acting by a Mr. Nick Cage.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FyuHA_zAOM

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #742 on: 13 April 2018, 23:38:17 »
I also disagree as it does not involve misfiling anything.

Meanwhile have an airplane that's had a busy day today.  This one in particular's got an interesting color scheme...
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #743 on: 14 April 2018, 00:35:29 »
What is that plane?
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Feenix74

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #744 on: 14 April 2018, 00:52:31 »
A Panavia Tornado operated by Her Majesty's Royal Air Force
Incoming fire has the right of way.

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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #745 on: 14 April 2018, 00:54:25 »
Soon to be retired with Typhoons taking on the strike role in addition. As soon as Storm Shadow and Brimstone completes integration anyway.

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #746 on: 14 April 2018, 01:10:32 »
Is anyone making a modern swing-wing design, or is that no longer something that's considered worthwhile?
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #747 on: 14 April 2018, 01:24:00 »
Is anyone making a modern swing-wing design, or is that no longer something that's considered worthwhile?
i believe it has mostly been deemed too maintenance heavy for the benefit..

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #748 on: 14 April 2018, 01:32:01 »
More structurally complex than necessary these days, a good big semi-delta wing is almost as efficient at high speed while still retaining lots of internal space for fuel, landing gear, weapons, etc.  Stealth also is a thing; not having the big sleeves and gloves and having a nice smooth blend in the wing interface helps reduce signature a little.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #749 on: 14 April 2018, 01:51:56 »
Is anyone making a modern swing-wing design, or is that no longer something that's considered worthwhile?

Variable Geometry costs a lot in terms of dead weight and internal volume for what are really not very significant benefits.  a cranked delta (like on the F-16XL, Eurofighter Typhoon, etc.) gives the same (or very close) performance at significantly less maintenance time, less dead weight, and less mandated internal volume for that dead weight.

Basically this translates into more internal volume for fuel, avionics, a higher payload-to-weight ratio, better thrust-to-payload ratio, longer flight times on the same airframe mass with the same engines, quicker sortie turnaround (since you have fewer mechanical systems to maintain), plus better g-loading peformance (assuming the same quality of man-hours were spent on design), and lower production costs (once the factory's up and running.)

For example, the F-15 and the F-14 are from the same generation, the 14 is heavier, has a shorter service life, lower thrust/ton, longer turnaround on the ground for maintenance, is more expensive to produce, and was obsoleted out of production, while we're still building F-15s that cover more roles, more effectively, at lower operating costs with more flight hours relative to maintenance hours (not just because of fuel use, but also time-on-ground getting fixed).

basically, variable geometry was a technique to overcome specific problems: low speed manuevring  and runway perfomance while retaining at-altitude airspeed requirements.  each 'wing' in a swing-wing design is a full-blown WING, but it concentrates your load on a set of moving parts, instead of distributing it to the airframe- those parts have to be relatively heavy  (and absorb expensive alloys), but that's just to get 'vanilla' performance.  a fixed wing is more rigid, which means it can take more loading for a given mass, and since it's not a moving part, it requires less upkeep and maintenance, and what maintenance and upkeep it does require, is simpler, and less costly, which in turn translates into less time 'in the barn' being maintained, and more time "in the air" building on pilot and engineering experience.

The F-111, F-14, Mig-23, Tornado, etc. etc. all required more airframe maintenance than their fixed-wing counterparts.  That translates into time on ground between sorties, and in a strike role, time on ground between sorties is time your ground forces aren't getting air support.

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