Author Topic: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?  (Read 26288 times)

monbvol

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #60 on: 26 February 2018, 13:03:05 »
Correct. Crew size is only relevant when determining how many support weapons can fit in a squad. When shooting time comes, you still have one guy on the trigger, and the rest still have their auto-rifles(or whatever).

Oh my LORD, no. All the no. I'm gonna need a bigger no. There's isn't a single real-life material we can compare Battletech armor to.

So I was wrong about how infantry work, fair enough.  Still that doesn't change that autorifles are frankly too effective.

And I didn't mean modern fully realized Battlemech armor.  Battletech does have rules for technology A and Technology B support vehicle armor.  I know that doesn't mean they are explicitly armor from modern real world times but the relative technological sophistication is such that they wouldn't be out of place and I also did note they still don't perform like our current real life armors.

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #61 on: 26 February 2018, 13:18:37 »
Not to sound like an  >:D or anything, but at what point did some of you forget that this is a game and not a simulation?  I can understand a desire for internal consistency, but in reality, would you prefer a paradigm where infantry are absolutely useless except against other infantry?  It's a game, abstraction is necessary to keep everything balanced and playable.
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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #62 on: 26 February 2018, 13:30:47 »
... but in reality, would you prefer a paradigm where infantry are absolutely useless except against other infantry?

... maybe ;)

Honestly, you right. We tend to overthink everything about this game.

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #63 on: 26 February 2018, 13:57:33 »
I agree with you in principle, though it should be noted that I don't recall any note that says that Battletech guns use 'simple lead bullets', or that 31st century flamethrowers(the vee ones of course) use the same chemical mix as 20th century ones, thus we must accept the possibility of extremely different temperatures, stickiness, and other burn properties. And of course we have even less points of comparison for energy-based flamers, unless the prop for Princess Vespa's hairdryer is a lot more functional than I thought.

We still have zero points of comparison.

... maybe ;)

Honestly, you right. We tend to overthink everything about this game.

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Carbon Elasmobranch

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #64 on: 26 February 2018, 16:37:42 »
Not to sound like an  >:D or anything, but at what point did some of you forget that this is a game and not a simulation?  I can understand a desire for internal consistency, but in reality, would you prefer a paradigm where infantry are absolutely useless except against other infantry?  It's a game, abstraction is necessary to keep everything balanced and playable.

Even BT being a game doesn't save it from criticisms about auto-rifles being too good.  Infantry have a lot of choices for weaponry, but making most of them fake choices doesn't make design of platoons very fun, or using them particularly thrilling.  And while some vehicle weapons may have also done this, it doesn't mean you have to replicate the same situation with infantry, especially with a weapon that's cheating when it comes to the reload factor calculation.

monbvol

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #65 on: 26 February 2018, 16:54:21 »
I've said multiple times now I don't actually have a problem with Infantry as a unit type being able to hurt armor.  They just should be appropriately equipped to do so.

Because ultimately the point I made about Mech Machine Guns only doing two points of damage while 28 guys with nothing but autorifles is going to do more being ludicrous still stands.

Internal consistency and logic shouldn't be a bad thing.

massey

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #66 on: 26 February 2018, 17:08:52 »
No justification is needed. Infantry weapons hurt mechs, that is an unquestionable fact. If they didn't, Total War and a lot of rulebooks before it would be worded very differently.

The thread topic is about whether Total Warfare's method of handling infantry meets your expectations.  Obviously, for many of us, the answer is "no".  Saying "But that's how Total Warfare handles it!" makes no difference.

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #67 on: 26 February 2018, 17:11:58 »
I simply justify it to myself that infantry units carry anti-mech weapons.  Even a rifle unit has a number of guys lugging around rifle grenades, bazookas, and other weapons that can damage mech armor.  The idea that the assault rifles have any real effect on a mech is ridiculous.  But those guys can still carry some weapons that can hurt mechs, enough to last the battle.

monbvol

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #68 on: 26 February 2018, 17:17:31 »
Which would be a perfectly fine stance to take in my book.  Tech Manual in particular kind of messes with that but I can grock that kind of head canon.

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #69 on: 26 February 2018, 19:00:52 »
Using the much less effective AToW rules for damaging Tactical Armor (pages 185-186; the Companion conversion formula is very different), it's still possible for a single auto-rifle to damage BAR 10 (i.e., 'mech) armor.  Granted, it takes a MoS of 11, but it can be done.  If you want to reduce the effectiveness of auto-rifles, I think this is the logical place to start.

skiltao

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #70 on: 26 February 2018, 19:53:44 »
BAR ratings should be done away with entirely. Why wouldn't all 'Mechs use BAR 9 armor on their heads? If you have only 5 armor on a rear torso, why not use BAR 5? The barrier rating gets you nothing that armor factor doesn't. Five points of armor are going to be half as thick as ten points over that same area.

A Battletech auto-rifle has as much in common performance-wise with an M4 as said M4 has with an Atl-Atl.

Good rule of thumb: If you have Battletech game stats for something, then comparing that something to anything built in the 20th/21st centuries is worse than useless.

Auto-Rifles are explicitly 20th to 22nd century tech. Bolt-action rifles, which can also damage 'Mech armor, are explicitly 19th century tech. You can quibble where a given brand name weapon falls on that spectrum, if you like, but the weapon stats are meant to be generically true across the whole of their respective technological spectrums. Or to put it another way: a 31st century auto-rifle is evidently defined as a rifle whose build and performance is undifferentiated from a 20th century auto-rifle.

I'm not disagreeing with the other half of your argument, though. I agree that 21st century armor may not be a great analog for 26th century miracle armor.

at what point did some of you forget that this is a game and not a simulation?  I can understand a desire for internal consistency, but in reality, would you prefer a paradigm where infantry are absolutely useless except against other infantry?  It's a game, abstraction is necessary to keep everything balanced and playable.

Most of the discussion revolves around the rules not being abstract enough, or abstracted in unrealistic and counter-productive ways; that the current infantry rules are not well balanced; and that other directions might better improve playability. Improving similitude isn't automatically counter to improving gameplay.
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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #71 on: 26 February 2018, 19:57:27 »
BAR ratings should be done away with entirely. Why wouldn't all 'Mechs use BAR 9 armor on their heads? If you have only 5 armor on a rear torso, why not use BAR 5? The barrier rating gets you nothing that armor factor doesn't. Five points of armor are going to be half as thick as ten points over that same area.
*snip*
As someone once pointed out to me, for the exact reason we're discussing.  The lower the BAR rating, the easier it is for small arms to get through.

skiltao

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #72 on: 26 February 2018, 19:59:05 »
Which Armor Factor can do equally well.
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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #73 on: 26 February 2018, 20:12:48 »
Only on a TW scale.  The complaint many here have is the crossover from AToW to TW scale.

monbvol

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #74 on: 26 February 2018, 20:25:49 »
Eh.  I do get what TPTB were trying to do with the BAR system but I think I do tend to agree that it wasn't well executed but I'm not sure you could use armor factor like that without causing other problems.

Only on a TW scale.  The complaint many here have is the crossover from AToW to TW scale.

I've had my issues with how powerful the autorifle is against armor before AToW was published thanks to Total Warfare and Tech Manual being published quite a bit before AToW.

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #75 on: 26 February 2018, 20:30:41 »
... maybe ;)

Honestly, you right. We tend to overthink everything about this game.

It's one thing to over think, it's still something else to see a disconnect in narrative and rules execution. That's not overthinking. It didn't take much for me to see the rules for MechInf and go WTF. It also didn't take me long to see the construction rules for infantry and also go WTF.


We still have zero points of comparison.

That, sadly, is true. And, considering our point of reference as players is the modern, early 21st century, maybe it's high time that some sort of attempt was made at a point of comparison by the Devs.


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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #76 on: 26 February 2018, 20:34:39 »
Only on a TW scale.  The complaint many here have is the crossover from AToW to TW scale.

Some are about how BAR works, some are not. Where BAR works, you can simply replace it one-for-one with Armor Factor (ie, treat the Armor Factor of a location as its BAR rating). Where BAR doesn't work, well, you're coming up with a new way of handling things anyways, and if you need a Bar-like value you may as well design the system to use AF instead.
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Daemion

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #77 on: 26 February 2018, 20:38:55 »
Well, the Aerospace units have a Threshold value that's based on Armor Factor (location armor points).

I was always keen on them trying to use that to varying degrees for less than optimal combat units.

But, that's going into a whole different discussion.

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #78 on: 26 February 2018, 22:33:30 »
That, sadly, is true. And, considering our point of reference as players is the modern, early 21st century, maybe it's high time that some sort of attempt was made at a point of comparison by the Devs.

Oh GODS no. Have you met the residents of this forum, much less the internet? Giving them an actual real-world point of reference is like tying a raw steak around your neck and then mud-wrestling with a pack of hyenas!
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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #79 on: 26 February 2018, 22:54:22 »
Considering the original question "Does total warfare's treatment of infantry meet your expectations?" My expectations were set by the previous three rules compilations, and it wasn't like I expected the writers to completely re-build those rules from the ground up, so I'd say my expectations were met. Even exceeded by some of the changes (how they handled damage was a welcome change).

There are a lot of things I would do differently (enough to qualify as a complete re-write). But none of it is a deal breaker for me.

Oh GODS no. Have you met the residents of this forum, much less the internet? Giving them an actual real-world point of reference is like tying a raw steak around your neck and then mud-wrestling with a pack of hyenas!

I remember all the times people were trying to beat each other over the head with copies of TRO 1945 to prove some stupid point or other. It was not a good time.

Hell, even the ancient history of the battletech universe isn't our real world. Giving anybody official standards to obsess over seems like a bad idea.
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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #80 on: 27 February 2018, 00:52:00 »
Much as I love the product, I still believe that giving the fans XTRO '45 was probably one of CGL's worst ideas ever. I hope they never do anything like that again(or if they do, never let it fall into the hands of the fans), but folks who hope for more like it can be comforted by the knowledge that my opinion on such things means exactly bupkiss in the grand scheme of things.
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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #81 on: 27 February 2018, 09:30:52 »
Much as I love the product, I still believe that giving the fans XTRO '45 was probably one of CGL's worst ideas ever. I hope they never do anything like that again(or if they do, never let it fall into the hands of the fans), but folks who hope for more like it can be comforted by the knowledge that my opinion on such things means exactly bupkiss in the grand scheme of things.

It was a great idea.  I loved TRO 1945.  The mistake was in not saying "This is just for fun, just a gag.  Nothing in here is supposed to be an official rule or an accurate portrayal of WWII tech."  They wouldn't even have had to have that in the book itself, just make the statement on the forums.

The problem was they tried to hem and haw around, and say that it was kind of official.  That set off, well... us.

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #82 on: 27 February 2018, 09:48:41 »
Yeah, I'll give you that.

Either way, I think we can both agree that giving Battletech fans real-world-congruent data points constitutes a worst-case scenario. I'm honestly surprised nobody's yet taken the damage data from nukes to 'prove' that Piece of Equipment X makes no sense, it must be changed, and that all units mounting X must be redesigned.

If someone has, please don't tell me about it. I have enough issues in my life, I don't need stress-induced aneurysms on top of everything else.
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massey

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #83 on: 27 February 2018, 10:11:19 »
Yeah, I'll give you that.

Either way, I think we can both agree that giving Battletech fans real-world-congruent data points constitutes a worst-case scenario. I'm honestly surprised nobody's yet taken the damage data from nukes to 'prove' that Piece of Equipment X makes no sense, it must be changed, and that all units mounting X must be redesigned.

If someone has, please don't tell me about it. I have enough issues in my life, I don't need stress-induced aneurysms on top of everything else.

I think I made mention of it in another thread, so be careful where you look.  Somebody was calculating what a nuclear LRM could be, and that led to the math that 1 point of Battletech damage would equal XYZ amount of explosive...

And yes, determining what a real world equivalent is, that would just be disaster.  I think Battletech needs greater abstraction, not less.  I love how mechanized infantry work, it's way cleaner than giving each squad their own APC and messing around with that. 

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #84 on: 27 February 2018, 10:54:11 »
I love how mechanized infantry work, it's way cleaner than giving each squad their own APC and messing around with that.

Ditto. Trying to track record sheets for all the squad-level APCs in a decent-sized infantry force(company at least) would drive me mad, not to mention all the paper wastage. For me, the convenience of compressing an entire platoon down to a single stat line more than makes up for the reduced speed/firepower of such a force.

It's not an official term at all, but in my head I refer to troops paired with 3+-ton APCs as 'heavy mechinf'. :)
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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #85 on: 27 February 2018, 15:07:51 »
Personally, I would have been fine if Mechanized were handled like a different form of Battle Armor. Each squad is a line of hit points, and then throw in the capacity for mobility damage or auto-destruction of the vehicle. Nothing more than that really needed. Then, they have to function like regular infantry when dismounting to sweep a building.
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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #86 on: 27 February 2018, 15:27:27 »
I'll admit, that would have been pretty cool, and likely required zero new rules to implement.
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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #87 on: 27 February 2018, 15:43:03 »
Personally, I would have been fine if Mechanized were handled like a different form of Battle Armor. Each squad is a line of hit points, and then throw in the capacity for mobility damage or auto-destruction of the vehicle. Nothing more than that really needed. Then, they have to function like regular infantry when dismounting to sweep a building.
And having BA weapons be mounted on the vehicle to function as squad weapons?
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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #88 on: 27 February 2018, 21:11:29 »
Yeah, I'll give you that.

Either way, I think we can both agree that giving Battletech fans real-world-congruent data points constitutes a worst-case scenario. I'm honestly surprised nobody's yet taken the damage data from nukes to 'prove' that Piece of Equipment X makes no sense, it must be changed, and that all units mounting X must be redesigned.

If someone has, please don't tell me about it. I have enough issues in my life, I don't need stress-induced aneurysms on top of everything else.

There's always the secondary effects roll to hide behind with nukes.  Not so much with the thermobaric munitions...

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Re: Does Total Warfare Treatment of Infantry Meet Your Expectations?
« Reply #89 on: 27 February 2018, 21:18:03 »
Not so much with the thermobaric munitions...

Oh man, thermobarics. Any weapon system that makes me giggle that much probably shouldn't be available...
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