Author Topic: Clan fighting styles in actual games  (Read 4460 times)

Androsynth

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Clan fighting styles in actual games
« on: 24 May 2018, 09:57:00 »
As some of you know, I've recently picked up my neuro-helmet again after a long absence. I'm in the process of getting a couple of friends into the game, and figured I'd start with either 3025 or 3050 to ease them into the jihad and later eras (with all the extra mechs, weapons and complexity). So I've been reading all the old books to refresh my memory.

Anyway, as I was thumbing through the 3050 TRO there was a blurb about how clan mechwarriors fought differently than the IS ones do, in that each warrior will target a specific enemy mech as kind of an honor duel. Makes sense, given the story, but I'm curious if any of you have ever used this as a rule in an actual game.

Back in the day, as I've mentioned, the clan era killed BT in my group due to a bunch of stupidly overpowered custom mechs, and also because the group insisted on doing lance on lance (4x4) matches, which were normally a bunch of Mad Cats and Lokis fighting a squad of IS Potatomechs. Not fun for the IS side. That era needs scenarios and 'realistic' setups to make the power imbalance fun to play.

What I'm wondering is if playing the clans as they historically fought (i.e., duels instead of concentrated fire) helps even the board a bit? The IS player can concentrate fire from all his outclassed mechs, while the clan fights 'honorably' one on one with much better equipment. Anyone tried that? 

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #1 on: 24 May 2018, 10:02:55 »
Zellbrigen? Love it. LOVE a good zell game. It means both players have to actually adhere to it, rather than look for an excuse to break it. You have to remember that zell is offered to an HONORED opponent- you only give it if you have respect for your foe. If you plan to break it at an opportune moment to start a brawl, you're proving that YOU lack honor- and to a Clan warrior, what's worse than that?

Thing is, a lot of people think zell just means 'one-on-one duels'. It doesn't. It's about proving you can do things other warriors can't do. So bidding my Warhawk against a Zeus? Yeah, that's not really a fair fight and we both know it. So I'll bid against that Zeus... and the Dervish with him, and hey let's throw in that Commando too. I'll take all three of you- because that's how I'm going to prove I'm the best of the best, worthy of a Bloodname. My Timber Wolf is going to take on your Banshee? Too easy still, you have me outweighed by twenty tons but I'm out to look like a badass- so I'll bid away my lasers and only use LRMs in this fight to show how great I am.

Handle a zell game well, and it's a freaking blast- it's a totally different set of tactics than a standard Battletech game. Very strongly recommend at least giving it a try.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #2 on: 24 May 2018, 10:16:56 »
Yeah, to do IS vs Clan the accepted ratios are roughly 12 IS vs 10 Clan but balancing them is sort of hard- it also depends on map size, forces picked, etc.  If you want to cut that down and the Clan player is familiar with Elementals you can go with 5 Clan mechs, 5 Elemental points and 8 IS mechs but the IS mechs should not all be assaults.  The balance problem comes down to the amount of literal armor the IS gets is not taken into proper account.

As far as style . . .

Overall the Clan warrior will not care nearly as much as the IS mechwarrior about preserving their life or their machine so you get a lot more of what would be considered fanatical behavior from a Clan player.  IMO there has been improvements in how to implement & stick with the honor duel rules for the Clan players than may have been introduced initially but it still requires a player dedicated to the RP side of being a Clan player.  I had a LOT of fun as a Smoke Jaguar commander against some Kurita defenders last year at my state's main con when we were playing a invasion of Luthien scenario- most of the new players (fresh from the Grinder) were on my side of the battlefield.  They ignored the more experienced players' advice to not into the duels- they wanted to be the honorable space samurai!- and squared off against the Clan mechs.  Knowing they were mostly new players it was my responsibility to call out balanced duels . . . while also protecting my back if they decided to drop duels.  It was a pretty fair set of fights and my unengaged & BA all kept pressing on the objectives.

You CAN play as your last sentence suggest, but you need to play on a larger map . . . because to win the Clan players have to use their speed and longer range to even compete.  The Clan player will need to use their speed and range advantages to offset the IS's layers of armor, numbers and massed fire.
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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #3 on: 24 May 2018, 10:22:25 »
Thing is, a lot of people think zell just means 'one-on-one duels'. It doesn't. It's about proving you can do things other warriors can't do. So bidding my Warhawk against a Zeus? Yeah, that's not really a fair fight and we both know it. So I'll bid against that Zeus... and the Dervish with him, and hey let's throw in that Commando too. I'll take all three of you- because that's how I'm going to prove I'm the best of the best, worthy of a Bloodname. My Timber Wolf is going to take on your Banshee? Too easy still, you have me outweighed by twenty tons but I'm out to look like a badass- so I'll bid away my lasers and only use LRMs in this fight to show how great I am.

Handle a zell game well, and it's a freaking blast- it's a totally different set of tactics than a standard Battletech game. Very strongly recommend at least giving it a try.

Lol . . . I remember the time I tried that- "You cannot do that, its not a duel that way!"  I had to explain that zell did not mean single duels, it was about calling out opponents and create a challenging fight for the Clan warrior.  I tend to think he was upset because his speedster lights were not able to freely get to my back for when he planned to break the 'duel' later.  Putting down his medium and light before they could get within 10 hexes while minimizing his heavy's ability to hit was just icing on the cake.

Some other things people get confused on . . .

You CAN shoot them in the back while in a duel, its not your fault they exposed themselves like that . . .
You CAN shoot them while shut down or they have fallen- again its not your fault they chose to overheat or could not stay standing.
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Androsynth

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #4 on: 24 May 2018, 10:24:39 »
Zellbrigen? Love it. LOVE a good zell game. It means both players have to actually adhere to it, rather than look for an excuse to break it. You have to remember that zell is offered to an HONORED opponent- you only give it if you have respect for your foe. If you plan to break it at an opportune moment to start a brawl, you're proving that YOU lack honor- and to a Clan warrior, what's worse than that?

Thing is, a lot of people think zell just means 'one-on-one duels'. It doesn't. It's about proving you can do things other warriors can't do. So bidding my Warhawk against a Zeus? Yeah, that's not really a fair fight and we both know it. So I'll bid against that Zeus... and the Dervish with him, and hey let's throw in that Commando too. I'll take all three of you- because that's how I'm going to prove I'm the best of the best, worthy of a Bloodname. My Timber Wolf is going to take on your Banshee? Too easy still, you have me outweighed by twenty tons but I'm out to look like a badass- so I'll bid away my lasers and only use LRMs in this fight to show how great I am.

Handle a zell game well, and it's a freaking blast- it's a totally different set of tactics than a standard Battletech game. Very strongly recommend at least giving it a try.

Ahh, ok. That makes more sense. Thanks for explaining that everyone. All I ever had back in the day were the rules and TROs, I think I maybe need to read some of the sourcebooks/novels to get a better idea how this works. I like the idea of the clan player actually bidding to fight the IS force, like they did in the stories, that's probably the missing piece we had in my old group. I will definitely give this a shot with a big map.

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #5 on: 24 May 2018, 10:31:33 »
Well, there is bidding on several levels . . . what you see in the novels is the 'meta' bid.  Where commanders compete for the right to enter the Trial for whatever.  When on the battlefield challenges can be issued in several ways- over the open radio or even just by hitting a target with weapons.

Honestly, if you are wanting to set up IS vs Clan games ask in Board Game, IS or Clan forums . . . you will get a lot of opinions of course if the forces are balanced.  For instance go look in the Clan subforum for Liam's Ghost Ice Hellion topics.  He solicited forum members to bid the Clan force he would take as GM against the PCs.  Apparently some very interesting opposing forces were generated though I am not sure how the last Twycross one turned out.  I think my nearly all Elemental bid won but not sure how it was treated or if it even played out yet.
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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #6 on: 24 May 2018, 11:06:59 »
Total War has codified rules for Zellbrigen, which can serve as a good baseline while you develop your own style.

Remember that zell is as much a role-playing element as it is a tactical one. When Clan warriors engage in duels, they do so for one reason - to be noticed and remembered. Beyond mere victory, the warrior fights to make a victory that will stick in people's heads, to make them think he's got the chops for greater things. He wants a sponsor for a Bloodname, or for superiors to think of him when the next round of ToPs are scheduled, or to get a line in the Remembrance, or for fellow Council members to support his bid for Khan.

In order for these to happen, duels need to be interesting. Fair fights or fights where you have the advantage are boring. Challenge things that are bigger, or go for stuff on your level, and then immediately bid away guns or otherwise hobble yourself. Do the same when someone challenges you.

Put another way, a lot of people here have seen the movie Riddick. We all know that Riddick killed a lot of people in that movie, but the one almost all of us remember is the fight he ended with just the teacup.

When playing Clan, every fight needs a teacup of some kind or other.
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guardiandashi

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #7 on: 24 May 2018, 11:41:04 »
Ahh, ok. That makes more sense. Thanks for explaining that everyone. All I ever had back in the day were the rules and TROs, I think I maybe need to read some of the sourcebooks/novels to get a better idea how this works. I like the idea of the clan player actually bidding to fight the IS force, like they did in the stories, that's probably the missing piece we had in my old group. I will definitely give this a shot with a big map.
Its been a while but 1 way i was evaluating clan mechs when tro3050 first came out was to look at what it would take to build the mech with 3025 tech so the Timberwolf prime came out if i remember right as being about 125 tons of equipment stufed into a 75 ton package. So a roughly fair fight would be for the Timberwolf to face off against 125 to 150 tons of 3025 tech is opponents

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #8 on: 24 May 2018, 12:21:45 »
Really there's no good formula for it- for me, I just gamble and see what happens.

Think of it in-character as you bid. You're Mechwarrior McMechwarriorFace, intrepid pilot of a Dire Wolf Prime. You fear none, you dread nought, you are the overhwelming favorite in any battle you engage in. You want to impress your Clan, your blood house, your fellow warriors. How do you do that from a 100-ton juggernaut that has over 50% of its weight devoted to weapons? You'll stomp anything but another Dire Wolf without breaking a sweat. You know it, and your fellows know it too- so beating up an Atlas, a Summoner, whatever- who cares? Way to do the bare minimum. It beats LOSING, but it's not really WINNING, is it?

But if I take on a whole Inner Sphere lance at once! NOW I'm pushing my monstrosity to its limits, aren't I? That Atlas is no match for a Dire Wolf! But throw in an Orion, a Wolverine, maybe a Clint? Now we're dancing with the devil. NOW I can come home with my armor in tatters, four new marks to paint under my cockpit, a great victory that I can crow about. That I can point at and say 'HERE is why I should have the Bloodname of McMechwarriorFace! Because I can take on four guys at once and beat all of them!'

And if you died trying, well, then your inferior genes just weren't meant to be used for the next generation of baby-eating lunatics. That's the Clan way- excel or die.

To go the other direction, look at it from a light perspective. No Dire Wolf for YOU, kid- you're going to be put in a Kit Fox. Yaaaaay...? How do you gain honor now? You can't take a whole lance on in a Kit Fox! But... you CAN choose to pick on someone bigger than you are. Maybe it's that Orion- beat an Orion in a Mech less than half its size, and that'll look pretty great, right? Call him out, kick his ass, show that you don't fear someone bigger than you are. GET YOUR FELLOW WARRIORS TO PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR ACHIEVEMENTS.
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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #9 on: 24 May 2018, 12:31:43 »
Personally I love elemental vs assault battles! The other player thinks he has a big leg up but forgets he's slow enough for me get close enough to close in for leg attacks.
 Zell adds some nice spice to the battles and helps prevent battles from being too lopsided.
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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #10 on: 24 May 2018, 12:46:07 »
It also helps add some unpredictability to fights, because you are trying to show off . . .

I have challenged Clan warriors who picked Omnis and I would take a same size or smaller standard Clan mech.  Most decisive match I ever did that with was a Wolf v Falcon grudge fight . . . he took the Cougar with a Gauss Rifle.  I took a Pack Hunter . . . raced in firing every turn as I closed with him, game over in three shots . . . because two of them hit his side torso, which finished the 3 engine hits from opening the OTHER side torso with a single crit.

My favorite Clan story fight was on a competitive server . . . I took a 3/5 Arcas against a 4/4 Mad Dog AND a 3/4 Avatar Prime.  I want to say it was a challenge against the Dracs over something, maybe Luthien? . . . I lost the roll to pick the map size so they set it 20x20 on MM IIRC- whatever it was too small to exploit my ERLL advantage.  I won, took down the Mad Dog with engine or gyro, I do not recall . . . the last round it was the Avatar which was pretty open against my hurting Arcas which was missing a arm . . . and maybe some torso armor, I know I was afraid of his LBX.  Well, he got my gyro for the hit that ended my mech's ability to fight.  But my ERLL burned off his head, and the warrior sitting in the cockpit.

Outmassed 2-1, smaller Circle of Equals than a Clan warrior wants, and skills were pretty evenly matched- but I won.
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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #11 on: 24 May 2018, 13:08:35 »
keep in mind zell games can take longer because unless someone goes full surat and triggers a grand melee, some duels can take a very long time (e.g. we had to call a game once because the Spider vs Hankyu A duel was was taking way too damn long on the broken terrain I had foolishly selected.

the parameters for running a zellbrigen game are in the Creating Scenarios section of total warfare.

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #12 on: 24 May 2018, 14:05:54 »
The other thing to remember is that zellbrigen was introduced as a balancing mechanism to give IS players a chance against Clan technology, by essentially putting in-character brakes on the vastly superior Clan stuff.

It's been discussed to death and back if or how well that worked, so let's not go there.

But a couple years back I played in a German gaming event on the IS side, defending against Clans.
We used zellbrigen for the first five or so rounds of combat against the Clanners, by carefully never firing a gun from any 'Mech or vehicle who wasn't already engaged. The entire dance had only one aim, of course: Force the Clan players to stick to zellbrigen while we maneuvered our forces into the best possible positions to break the zell rules and open up with all guns. The Clan players weren't stupid and knew what was coming, but they kept to their rules. The Clan forces were wiped out, but not before scoring a handful of funny, impressive or incredible individual feats and we all had a blast. Even the Clan players could claim individual victories. I think the overall setup showed the system as intended; I'm fully aware that this may have been a lucky exception from the general perception on how it plays out.
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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #13 on: 25 May 2018, 00:55:04 »
Back in the day, as I've mentioned, the clan era killed BT in my group due to a bunch of stupidly overpowered custom mechs, and also because the group insisted on doing lance on lance (4x4) matches, which were normally a bunch of Mad Cats and Lokis fighting a squad of IS Potatomechs. Not fun for the IS side. That era needs scenarios and 'realistic' setups to make the power imbalance fun to play.

I didn't get into the game until the 90s, but well after the Clans had arrived.  I've heard that there wasn't a proper balancing system in place and attempts to go straight tonnage or units was (unsurprisingly) unfair.

There's been a few attempts to balance the game properly for I.S and Clan and it's generally pretty sound now with BV2 (I think it's the third attempt).  If you're not careful, though, you can actually sway the advantage easily to the I.S without meaning to-  there's also further abuses for the I.S such as the one you've asked about here:

What I'm wondering is if playing the clans as they historically fought (i.e., duels instead of concentrated fire) helps even the board a bit? The IS player can concentrate fire from all his outclassed mechs, while the clan fights 'honorably' one on one with much better equipment. Anyone tried that?

There's actually rules for the honour duels and protections for the Clans.  One clear abuse is challenging a Timber Wolf to a one on one duel with a Spider and then hiding your spider underwater or in smoke to break LOS while the rest of the I.S lance fires upon the Timber Wolf without letting its player do anything but try to get to the Spider.  That shouldn't be fun for either side- one player just marks off armour points while the other rolls dice.

That being said, there's a lot of fun (at least to me) in playing the I.S against the Clans with the lore.  The I.S and Clans are foils and contrasting in a lot of ways- which translates to the game board.

A few points to consider when it comes to the Clans:

1)  The Clans are glory hogs.  Each warrior desires a glorious death before they reach the age of 35 or so so that their DNA will be used to create the next generation of warriors.  Warriors are therefor torn between winning the fight (for their Clan) and risking loss by over-extending themselves to stand out from their peers.  Fighting a match where a Clan warrior has the advantage is the best way to ensure they don't stand out-  a Timber Wolf shouldn't be fighting a Marauder one on one, and if they do, they should be forfeiting some of their firepower:  E.g, "As your inferior model lacks the great technology of my Clan, I will only use my ER Large Lasers within this duel!".  2 ER Large Lasers deal 20 damage against the Marauder's twin PPCs and AC5.

2)  The Clans also aren't against challenging multiple opponents at once.  If you have a company of 3025 'mechs against a Clan star (5 'mechs) balanced by BV2, that assumes all the I.S 'mechs are in play.  For balance and theme, the Clan player should have his heavier 'mechs take on 3 opponents while his lighter mechs take on 2 opponents at once. 

3)  The Clans expect the defender to be honest about their forces-  they ask the I.S what they will be defending with, and then have their officers bid against each other.  For example, if the I.S says they have a company of 'mechs, the Clan officers will compete with each other by saying 'I can take the company with two stars' 'Oh yeah? I can do it with five 'mechs and five elementals! (See the point below)'  'Fine, I will do it with only five 'mechs!' etc.  You can have your players do this.   Establish the I.S force, then have your players bid against each other- whomever is willing to take the smallest/lightest Clan force gets to play their Clan force.  The loser(s) plays the I.S side. 

4)  The Clans' infantry are Elementals.   There are five in a squad and each wear a piece of battle armour that lets them jump 3 hexes, fire SRM2s, and a Medium Laser each.  One squad is considered a 'mech for honour duels.  That means if you have a company against a Nova (A star of 5 'mechs and 5 squads of battle armour) each squad of battle armour should be challenging an I.S 'mech to fight.

5)  There is 'lore' to backup that the Clans frown on fights made easier by the more powerful weapons.  Targeting Computers, Pulse Lasers, Streak SRMs etc. can be very powerful in the game.  While using targeting computers to aim at legs or centre torsos or stacking pulse lasers with the -1 bonus from a targeting computer may be attractive to new players, thematically this is discouraged from a lore perspective.  That's not to say that a Clan player can't use a Warhawk C, but he or she shouldn't be building his entire star around it- e.g, there shouldn't be a 1/2 pilot in the warhawk C while everything else is Elementals so she or he can roll to-hits of 4 while the Elementals tie up the other I.S forces. 

Basically, when playing the Clans against the I.S, some theme and common sense should be applied.  Who ultimately wins should be secondary to everyone having fun (and a chance) just like any other game of Battletech.

A few notes on actual I.S vs Clan tech:

1) A Timber Wolf may have a lot more firepower than a 3025 Marauder, as well as mobility.  Clan internals and armour can't take any more punishment than their I.S counterparts however.  The internal structure of a Timber Wolf is the exact same as a Marauder, and you cannot mount any more armour on it than you can the Marauder.   Because the I.S force (rightfully so) will have more units and tonnage than the Clan force, the I.S will have more 'health' to help counteract the considerably increased firepower of the Clan force.

2) Engines, gyros, cockpits etc. are all just as vulnerable for either side.  Three engine crits will take down a Clan 'mech-  keep in mind that Clan units make heavy use of XL Engines for increased mobility and weapons, and destroying a side torso results in two engine crits.  A Marauder that loses a side torso is a lot further from death than a Timber Wolf that's lost a side torso.  BV2 actually accounts for this in reducing the value of Clan units with XL Engines (and even further reduces I.S units with XL Engines as a side torso destruction will eliminate the unit due to three engine criticals exisiting in the side torso with I.S XL Engines).

3) A Timber Wolf's punch hits no harder than a Marauder's.  Furthermore, as your I.S force will again be heavier the Timber Wolf could very well be fighting an Atlas, or an Atlas and a Cicada at the same time- the Timber Wolf is a loser in a kicking match with an Atlas.

4)  The Clans are built around the concept of 'victimless' warfare. Only the warriors fight, and fights (trials) are held far from civilians to ensure that no civilians are hurt, killed, or otherwise inconvenienced.  This translates directly to the game table in that Clan forces will want wide, open, terrain where they can take advantage of their weapons greater reach and ensure they can get the full defensive bonuses from using their superior movement.  The I.S force will want to fight in treacherous terrain and urban areas as that forces the Clans into short range where both sides have a +0 modifier and the I.S can use physical attacks.

The defender gets to pick the location of the fight, so the I.S player should get the priority when it comes to picking maps-  one thing to be careful though is that you don't unintentionally box the Clan player in from the start:  You'll want to use enough mapsheets to ensure that the Clan forces can make use of their extra range and be able to run.  The I.S player, during duels and map picking, should be trying to shepherd the Clan forces into close proximity instead of just dropping both forces within 15 hexes of each other right out from round 1.  The I.S force can use infernos, mines (pre setup), traps such as mech pits, clearing away wood tiles etc. etc. to help force Clan forces in closer.

Finally, the honour rules themselves.

The rules themselves aren't complex.  There's four levels- while lorewise the Clans initially started at level '1' in the invasion you'll likely want to use level 2 or 3.

Level 1:  Under no circumstances the Clans will drop duels.  This can be easily abused as I mentioned above:  having a light hide while an I.S 'mech fire away without fear of reprisal and the like.
Level 2:  If an I.S force member violates the duel, all Clan units are free to drops the honour rules against that unit only.
Level 3:  If a single I.S force member violates the duel, all Clan units are free to drop the honour rules against all I.S units.
Level 4:  The Clans don't extend duels from the get go.

The duels themselves are pretty simple.  Basically:

- Attempt to maintain LOS and within range of your weapons.  A Hunchback shouldn't hang out at 20 hexes out because it can't fire any of its weapons at that range.  If a unit moves outside its range, it earns a 'dezgra' point.  If it ends a turn in LOS and attempted to move within range it loses a dezgra point.  If a unit accumulates three points the Clan force may declare it in violation of the duel.  (So an I.S 'mech can use smoke to block LOS as it closes, or break LOS to hide and lose some heat, etc. just so long as it doesn't do it three times in a row)
- A unit may not attack another outside of its duel.  That Timber Wolf presented its rear arc to the hunchback while fighting the Atlas?  The Hunchie can't fire at that rear armour unless it wants to violate the duel-  the I.S player should be willing to violate rules.  Part of the tactics is judging when to break the rules and risk the Clans dropping all dueling rules. 
- Area of Effect weapons are typically banned by the Clans.  Artillery, mines*, NARC etc. are frowned upon due to the fact that they tend to violate the nature of duels.  Dropping thunder LRMs to deny an area to an opponent gets iffy if it accidentally damages a 'mech in another duel.  NARC, spotting for indirect LRMs, can be fine if the collaborating forces are both dueling the same opponent in a 2v1 or 3v1 though.

Finally there's no real rule that I know of that prevents a player from just 'happening' to move a unit in duel A into the path of an opponent's mech in duel B to hinder its movement.

Note that part of dueling, of course, is that the Clan player will likely suspect (rightly so) that the I.S player will play dirty.  Does she risk presenting her Timber Wolf's rear armour to a Hunchback, trusting the I.S player not to take advantage and break the duel?

*Mines and such that are setup in advance don't necessarily violate duels, especially under Levels 1 and 2. 

Physical attacks:

-  Don't have anything to do with honour duels and are fair game by either side
-  The Clans have disdain for them as they're 'barbarian' and 'unsophisticated'.  There's a similar level of rules for Clans regarding Physical attacks:  Level 1, they don't do them ever.  Level 4, the Clans are free to use them from the start.  I don't quite recall Level 2 and 3, but thematically the Clans should be reluctant to use them while the I.S should be encouraged to do so.

Retreat:

-  The Clans typically don't retreat because it stains their personal honour.  Again, they're weighint their personal honour and glory against the needs of the Clans.  The Clans aren't above forced withdrawal rules though, and whether the Clans follow them is again based on a Level 1 through 4 system where 1 they refuse to retreat and 4 they're free to do so if the battle appears lost.  The greater the tech difference between the Clans and the I.S, the less likely the Clans are to withdraw though- against 3025 forces, a Timber Wolf against a Marauder wouldn't retreat- a Timber Wolf with a missing side torso and an exposed centre and side torsos though would probably yield to an Atlas.

A lot of its thematic, so you'll want to experiment and find what works best for your group.

 

« Last Edit: 25 May 2018, 00:58:40 by Sid »
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Brakiel

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #14 on: 25 May 2018, 06:48:29 »
The Clans' infantry are Elementals.   There are five in a squad and each wear a piece of battle armour that lets them jump 3 hexes, fire SRM2s, and a Medium Laser each.

They have a standard Small Laser. A Medium Laser would be insane.

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #15 on: 25 May 2018, 06:58:54 »
Here are some ideas:
Vehicles, infantry, and aircraft don't belong on your field.  So you may concentrate fire.

If a challenge was offered and accepted it simply means no else should enter the combat/duel.

If no challenges are offered/accepted lets try this example:

Your commander on the field will assign your mechwarrior(s) their target(s).  If star 1 is a Dire Wolf, Executioner, Warhawk, Gargoyle, and Timberwolf vs star 2 of a Phoenix Hawk IIC, Savage Coyote, Grizzly, Atlas IIC, and a Blood Asp.
The Star Commander of the first star assigns the opponents mechs as follows:


Dire Wolf is assigned the Phoenix Hawk IIC
Executioner is assigned the Savage Coyote
Warhawk is assigned the Grizzly
Gargoyle is assigned the Atlas IIC
Timber Wolf is assigned Blood Asp

The commander of the second clan star however may assign his warriors as follows:
Phoenix Hawk IIC - Timber Wolf
Savage Coyote - Gargoyle
Grizzly  - Warhawk
Atlas IIC - Executioner
Blood Asp - Dire Wolf

Only the Grizzly and Warhawk are involved in one and one combat.
Every other mech is fighting two other opponents.
If the Warhawk beats the Grizzly, the Warhawk pilot must wait for either to be shot at or for a star 2 opponent to defeat the two mechwarriors from Star one.

Another option, the Steel Vipers have a "Coil" strategy where their mechwarriors will encircle an enemy unit.  (Lance, company, etc.)  Once encircled, the Steel Vipers will move in a circular motion and fire at their nearest opponent while simultaneously making the circle smaller and smaller.  (To play this in a game, I simply allow the Steel Vipers switch targets but under no circumstances may the Steel Vipers have two or more mechs fire at one opponent in one turn.  In my games, the Steel Vipers may switch targets even if the coil has yet to be formed or even attempted.)

Regarding elementals on the battlefield:  They are not concerned about mechwarrior honor and they may shoot at anyone and everyone unless a formal duel has been issued and accepted.


marcussmythe

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #16 on: 25 May 2018, 07:16:23 »
Though it came many years later, I find that an odd paralell to the Clans Warrior may be found in the Warboys -  no hope for a future. Just glory and being remembered.

For trueborns that only value trueborn offspring, your only chance at reproductive success is martial glory and having your genes incorporated into later sibkos.  Thus survival is only of value as it advances that goal - living is something you do in hope of future glory.  If you can get glory -now-, at the mere cost of your life?  Well, thats a done deal.

The picture of a clan warrior calling out an overwhelming enemy force while screaming “WITNESS ME” is just so spot on.

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #17 on: 25 May 2018, 08:17:17 »
They have a standard Small Laser. A Medium Laser would be insane.
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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #18 on: 25 May 2018, 08:28:45 »
*hides the Carona's from Brakiel.*

I meant in the sense that a Medium Laser would be insane on a medium weight suit which already has full armor, jump jets, and a SRM2 pack. Personally, I love the Corona and Cuchulainn.

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #19 on: 25 May 2018, 09:05:33 »
They have a standard Small Laser. A Medium Laser would be insane.

Heck with that . . . I wanted a Small Heavy on them when they came out, and my desire changed to Improved when those came out.
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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #20 on: 25 May 2018, 09:31:54 »
Your commander on the field will assign your mechwarrior(s) their target(s).  If star 1 is a Dire Wolf, Executioner, Warhawk, Gargoyle, and Timberwolf vs star 2 of a Phoenix Hawk IIC, Savage Coyote, Grizzly, Atlas IIC, and a Blood Asp.
The Star Commander of the first star assigns the opponents mechs as follows:

Regarding elementals on the battlefield:  They are not concerned about mechwarrior honor and they may shoot at anyone and everyone unless a formal duel has been issued and accepted.

Actually . . . no . . . the unit commander does not usually declare the duels.  Like I said earlier we have examples of challenges broadcast in the open, in some cases just by connecting with a weapon, it is extremely rare for a commander to assign matches b/c that impinges on the honor of the warriors and may not work out if the other side is not cooperating.  Which is typically why the only time we see that sort of thing, the commander suggests and the warrior makes the requested challenge by broadcast.  Challenges to duels can also be declined or altered depending on circumstances.  That is IC . . . OOC, of course we arrange them for fun fights.

Armor and Infantry/Elementals attitudes depend on the Clans.  The Hell's Horses include tanks in the bid and expect them to be accorded the same rights- along with Infantry/Elementals.  One of the most famous cases was when the Crusader Wolves ignored a pair of Mars tanks on a ridge to focus on the 'more honorable' mechs . . . and because they ignored the challenges the Horses did not feel constrained.  The pair of tanks pounded the Wolf forces so bad they had to call in their last bid- and still failed.  This was UNDER BMR rules IIRC where they would have been easy to kill.  Ghost Bears, maybe the Star Adders and Blood Spirits would also follow this as they value their Elementals and to a lesser degree their armor under combined arms philosophy.

I would think the Horses, Ravens and Spirits would also feel that way about Proto points but I am not sure any other Clan would.
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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #21 on: 25 May 2018, 09:37:43 »
I meant in the sense that a Medium Laser would be insane on a medium weight suit which already has full armor, jump jets, and a SRM2 pack. Personally, I love the Corona and Cuchulainn.

There's always the Gnome. Yes, it's a small, but it's a CLAN ER small, so... ow?
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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #22 on: 25 May 2018, 09:38:49 »
Heck with its energy weapons, I want those Advanced SRMs for my Clan mechs so they can reach past 9 hexes with SRMs and still fire inferno . . .
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Androsynth

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #23 on: 25 May 2018, 09:50:11 »
Wow, thanks everyone. Got a ton of great ideas and responses throughout this thread. I have a much better picture of how to do this with some new players. My group is generally pretty good playing within theme, so I think that they would dig a lot of the 'fighting like the clan actually would'. It's been too long since I've delved into the BT universe, but I am very much remembering why I liked it so much. There's just so much backstory. Think I'll track down a couple of the old clan sourcebooks too. 

I've got a much better idea how to do this now, I think my proto-group will really enjoy this.

Quote
The picture of a clan warrior calling out an overwhelming enemy force while screaming “WITNESS ME” is just so spot on.

Funny, I thought the same thing. The clan's have a very cult like feel to them. The fact that their whole system basically collapses after contact with the 'real world' of the IS fits too.

Brakiel

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #24 on: 25 May 2018, 09:59:16 »
There's always the Gnome. Yes, it's a small, but it's a CLAN ER small, so... ow?

The Gnome is also a heavy weight suit. It's actually pretty hard to cram a standard Medium Laser onto a medium BA. 500 kg is eaten by the gun alone. Even going mixed tech, you have to choose between being underarmored or slow.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #25 on: 25 May 2018, 10:10:13 »
It is worth noting that despite what the rulebook says, you don't have to go through the "i am so and so, i challenge the pilot of [insert unit(s) here]" every time.

in the fiction, most of the engagements, especially during the initial invasion, just saw the clan pilots picking a target and sticking to it, with no apparent communication. fancy broadcast invitations to duel were largely restricted to special circumstances.

as a Clan player and playing at a higher honor level, you shouldn't need to declare it a duel as a player either.. just pick a target and everyone should know those two mechs are involved in a duel. IMO the only time you need to do the extra step of declaring aloud that it is a duel is when said duel is not a simple one on one match up. when that Dire Wolf Pilot challenges an entire opposing Lance for example, or that Timberwolf pilot declares it will not use it's Missiles for the duel. etc. and this is mostly so all the players are aware of the conditions and the table's GM doesn't give you dezgra points when you didn't earn them.

at lower honor levels, when duels are not automatically assumed, yeah, make sure you declare them.


Here are some ideas:
Vehicles, infantry, and aircraft don't belong on your field.  So you may concentrate fire.
this depends on the clan involved. most would agree.. but the Hell's Horses (and later the Stone Lions) count Vehicles as Honorable units which Zell does apply, on a "2 tanks = 1 mech" basis.
this has generated a lot of interesting debate on the forums and at official events when the Horse's view and the common clan view clash.

many of the clans have some minor variation, some more logical than others. the horses accept vehicles as honorable. the Hellions have their 'flurry' variant, where you can take massed light mechs against a heavier opponent. etc.
« Last Edit: 25 May 2018, 10:15:17 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #26 on: 25 May 2018, 10:38:57 »
That's half of Zellbringen.  The other half happens before the battle, which we normally don't see in tabletop games.  The Clan commanders will typically bid among themselves for the honor of fighting the match with the least forces, and bid away assets until nobody else feels confident of winning with less.

Going in with equal numbers and close to the same tonnage basically defies that entire concept.


I attempted to introduce that to our old BT group, by having the prospective Clan players bid among themselves for the "honor" of commanding the Clan forces.  Anyone who did not bid was limited to running one 'Mech, and anyone who LOST their bid had to play on the IS side.  It didn't fly, the Clan players wouldn't do it.  So, we got a matchup of 300+ tons of 5 Clan 'Mechs up against roughly 350 tons for 8 Inner Sphere 'Mechs.....a massacre.  The IS decided to honor Zell through the match, or at least for as long as possible, so the first Clanner to move started an "honor duel" with his Warhawk against a Stinger.....REAL honor in that duel.  Zell lasted about halfway through the first turn.


My experiences with Clan players in general have been extremely frustrating, and I will not play IS versus Clan because you can't get the many of PLAYERS to accept a "fair fight" if they see an opportunity for a "roflstomp".  There are exceptions, of course, who try to play it "by the fluff" rather than powergame it.  Sadly, you only need one player to break it.
« Last Edit: 25 May 2018, 10:40:31 by Kovax »

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #27 on: 25 May 2018, 10:51:56 »

Finally, the honour rules themselves.

The rules themselves aren't complex.  There's four levels- while lorewise the Clans initially started at level '1' in the invasion you'll likely want to use level 2 or 3.

Overall, a very good summary.

The thing to remember about this particular point is that early in the invasion, the Inner Sphere didn't know about Clan honor.  Sure, individuals might start wondering about why an enemy passed up an easy shot, or could notice that the Clans seemed to be "toying" with them, like a cat playing with its food.  "That MadCat isn't even using its missile launchers".  And the advantage for the Clans was generally so overwhelming that they were still winning easily.

The example of a Spider challenging a Timber Wolf, then running and hiding so your lancemates can concentrate fire on him while he sits there in frustration?  The Inner Sphere didn't know to do that early in the invasion.  There's a very short period of time (maybe a couple months) where the IS forces had started to figure out the honor code stuff, and where the Clans had yet to adapt.  The problem with sticking to Level 1 Clan Honor in a game is that your opponent has the rules right in front of him.  He knows exactly how to take advantage of it.  It's not really a proper historical simulation because he's got access to info that the people of the time would not have had.

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #28 on: 25 May 2018, 12:03:23 »
They have a standard Small Laser. A Medium Laser would be insane.

Thanks for the catch.  Was late- I had been thinking of mentioning some of the heavier suits and slipped up.



My experiences with Clan players in general have been extremely frustrating, and I will not play IS versus Clan because you can't get the many of PLAYERS to accept a "fair fight" if they see an opportunity for a "roflstomp".  There are exceptions, of course, who try to play it "by the fluff" rather than powergame it.  Sadly, you only need one player to break it.

To be frank, it doesn't sound like you've met a Clan player. 

What happens when you switch it to 3025? Do those 'Clan players' grab assaults and place them in heavy woods and smoke, waiting for the opponent to move into range?  They argue that 20 suicidal Savannah Masters is a fair fight against an Atlas, and send them all using ramming attacks?

I don't know how to deal with such players because I tend to simply not play with them.  I've heard, though, that if they insist that 300 tons of Clan 'mechs against 350 I.S is a fair fight you should simply swap the sides at the last minute and see if they still find it fair.

Overall, a very good summary.

The thing to remember about this particular point is that early in the invasion, the Inner Sphere didn't know about Clan honor.  Sure, individuals might start wondering about why an enemy passed up an easy shot, or could notice that the Clans seemed to be "toying" with them, like a cat playing with its food.  "That MadCat isn't even using its missile launchers".  And the advantage for the Clans was generally so overwhelming that they were still winning easily.

The example of a Spider challenging a Timber Wolf, then running and hiding so your lancemates can concentrate fire on him while he sits there in frustration?  The Inner Sphere didn't know to do that early in the invasion.  There's a very short period of time (maybe a couple months) where the IS forces had started to figure out the honor code stuff, and where the Clans had yet to adapt.  The problem with sticking to Level 1 Clan Honor in a game is that your opponent has the rules right in front of him.  He knows exactly how to take advantage of it.  It's not really a proper historical simulation because he's got access to info that the people of the time would not have had.

While it's true that the Clans assumed the Inner Sphere would magically know about the system they invented entirely on their own (I love the Clans!), the Inner Sphere did quickly adapt to exploiting the system.  Sometimes for the worse, like the planet that challenged Clan Ghost Bear to a game of American Football instead of a 'mech duel. 

I haven't personally seen the worst of the exploits of the honour rules in action, but every copy of the rules that I have mentions it.

The type of player that would do such a thing sounds a lot like the kind of players that Massey has encountered though.
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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #29 on: 25 May 2018, 12:30:19 »
...the Inner Sphere did quickly adapt to exploiting the system.  Sometimes for the worse, like the planet that challenged Clan Ghost Bear to a game of American Football instead of a 'mech duel. 

Because they had no mechs. I think even the militia was offworld when the Bears arrived.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #30 on: 25 May 2018, 12:39:41 »
While it's true that the Clans assumed the Inner Sphere would magically know about the system they invented entirely on their own (I love the Clans!), the Inner Sphere did quickly adapt to exploiting the system.  Sometimes for the worse, like the planet that challenged Clan Ghost Bear to a game of American Football instead of a 'mech duel. 

my favorite example of the early invasion honor weirdness was on of the first non-periphery worlds hit in the combine. it was a remote world, with no real defense. when the clans arrived, they did their little challenge.. and theo nly person to respond was an old retired DCMS pilot with an introtech archer. who, in combine fashion, responded with a recitation of linage and service history and accepted single combat.
so the fate of that world fell to a one on one duel between an old Samurai in an Archer and the pilot of a Nova omnimech. apparently the archer pilot faired well enough despite the tech imbalance.
i love it because it is an example of both the clan and the combine honor systems actually working synergisticly.. instead of the IS just being confused and steamrolled, or figuring out how to exploit and troll the clan invaders.

i also sometimes wonder if said pilot had been with the Ryuken at Misery, where the Combine and Clan honor system had last met in such fashion (via the Wolf's Dragoons)
« Last Edit: 25 May 2018, 12:41:56 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #31 on: 25 May 2018, 13:13:35 »
I've only seen one way that actually works to factor in Clan Zell (specifically, bidding) vs IS forces:  Both players have a common reference in a roster of the IS side, but neither side is yet presumed to be IS or Clan.  Both players bid against that IS list and the lowest bid plays the Clan side and the "loser" of the bid plays the IS side.

As for a balanced way to represent Zell on a battlefield:  I'm convinced there isn't one.  As opined upthread, it's a roleplaying schtick.  If one were to try to codify a balanced way of doing Zell, I'm thinking the only way it could work is for the competition to be between two players ostensibly on the same side of the battle competing for greater honor and glory than the other against a common, third force ran by a third player or a GM.  Tally up some list of "achievements" and/or assign point values to certain feats in order to keep it from being subjective as to who won the greater honor.

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #32 on: 25 May 2018, 13:29:32 »
Assume a versus game that is using bid down. By convention,the bid is down to as low as needed to win.

What percent chance of victory is that?

It seems under that interpretation, the clan should always possess a significant bv2 advantage.

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #33 on: 25 May 2018, 13:43:14 »
TDC . . . I actually like that idea and will have to suggest it to my agent.

IS Defenders of Some City have two objectives to defend and have their force already set.  Those who want to play Clan prepare their side as X Clan, those who want to defend the IS against the invaders are on that side.  The Clan players bid between themselves for the two objectives, one being more prestigious for some reason.  Then the Clan players bid between themselves for inclusion . . . then besides bidding between themselves they also compete in performance on the battlefield.  The IS players would give out reputation for feats- more than just winning your duels.  So to be the top Clan player you had to do it in style!  In a Nova Prime dueling a Thunderbolt when a Vedette sticks its nose out?  Style points for DFA'ing the Vedette while in your duel with the TBolt.

Hmmm . . .
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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #34 on: 25 May 2018, 13:45:02 »
Assume a versus game that is using bid down. By convention,the bid is down to as low as needed to win.

What percent chance of victory is that?

It seems under that interpretation, the clan should always possess a significant bv2 advantage.

Provided the Clan force is not fighting in a phone booth, the 3060s equivalency is one IS company to a binary of Clan mechs.  Honestly, from what I have played the cutdown is typically 80%-90% of the IS BV.
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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #35 on: 25 May 2018, 13:49:21 »
Provided the Clan force is not fighting in a phone booth, the 3060s equivalency is one IS company to a binary of Clan mechs.  Honestly, from what I have played the cutdown is typically 80%-90% of the IS BV.

And how often does the clan player win in that case?

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #36 on: 25 May 2018, 13:53:15 »
TDC . . . I actually like that idea and will have to suggest it to my agent.

IS Defenders of Some City have two objectives to defend and have their force already set.  Those who want to play Clan prepare their side as X Clan, those who want to defend the IS against the invaders are on that side.  The Clan players bid between themselves for the two objectives, one being more prestigious for some reason.  Then the Clan players bid between themselves for inclusion . . . then besides bidding between themselves they also compete in performance on the battlefield.  The IS players would give out reputation for feats- more than just winning your duels.  So to be the top Clan player you had to do it in style!  In a Nova Prime dueling a Thunderbolt when a Vedette sticks its nose out?  Style points for DFA'ing the Vedette while in your duel with the TBolt.

Hmmm . . .

Since my post, I've thought more about it...

It might be a helluva hoot for a 4 player game where everyone's Clan.  Two teams of two players, but at the end of the day it's still 1 player wins: Whoever racks up the most Zell achievements/points.  It'd be a very interesting dynamic where which team wins the Trial is secondary concern to which player wins the most points/honor.  Very appropriately Trueborn-like where making your codex look good is more important than your Clan winning!
« Last Edit: 25 May 2018, 14:00:27 by Tai Dai Cultist »

Colt Ward

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #37 on: 25 May 2018, 13:55:59 »
And how often does the clan player win in that case?

Considering that bidding rarely happens, it would be difficult to say.  I have won most of my Trials but its never easy to figure the cut down . . . I mean if your a Wolf player in a canyon against a Lyran Wall of Steel . . . what is the bid?
Colt Ward
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"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

bobthecoward

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #38 on: 25 May 2018, 14:30:06 »
Considering that bidding rarely happens, it would be difficult to say.  I have won most of my Trials but its never easy to figure the cut down . . . I mean if your a Wolf player in a canyon against a Lyran Wall of Steel . . . what is the bid?


Odds of winning something is a weird concept. There is an illusion of risk in RPGs I have no idea how to translate into a battle tech campaign.

Suppose you wanted a campaign to last up to 20 fights. After 20 fights, suppose you want an average player to have a 50% chance of "success" (whatever it is) and a single failure stops it (like a TPK, or near, TPK, or whatever).

Then the average chance of success in each mission would need to be 96.6%.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #39 on: 25 May 2018, 14:35:49 »
The nature of wargaming wanting to provide a balanced scenario is inherently at odds with conventional wisdom/military doctrine of considering anything less than a 3 to 1 advantage on the attack as being improper. 

The whole concept of Bidding is awkward because it's not clear if the foundational assumption is based in military science or wargaming: is the cutdown assuming the 3 to 1 ratio inherent to (realistic) military planning, or not?

marcussmythe

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #40 on: 25 May 2018, 14:57:53 »
I imagine that so long as they are competing against one another in bidding, they would cut down to exactly the least each believes they need to barely scratch out a win.  Otherwise as soon as I bid 3:1, someone will offer 2.9:1, and we are still off to the races.

This results in something like 'wargamer fair fights'.  Which is both befitting the clan ethos, and at odds with it - because challenging an IS HBK-G to 'duel' on a featureless plain, while driving a Puma Prime, and then promising to do it with only one PPC, strikes me as a very clan thing to do.  Honorable even, because if that Stravag Inner Sphere Dog was a -real- warrior, he would have enough speed and range to fight back.

Colt Ward

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #41 on: 25 May 2018, 15:07:10 »
When I say Trial, it basically comes down to single battles . . . played through Falcon & Wolf years ago, did those grudge matches against Falcons years ago, and ones later on.

But its a interesting question . . . the Bears won the bid to defend the call to invade by cutting the forces down from 16 to 1 to 4 to 1- and nearly LOST against Ulric.  The Wolves fought the Falcons in the Refusal War and had to go into the fights with something like 66% to 75% of the forces the Falcons had, but they also fielded Omnis & were better pilots.  They won those fights too, but . . .
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Weirdo

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #42 on: 25 May 2018, 15:10:57 »
This results in something like 'wargamer fair fights'.  Which is both befitting the clan ethos, and at odds with it - because challenging an IS HBK-G to 'duel' on a featureless plain, while driving a Puma Prime, and then promising to do it with only one PPC, strikes me as a very clan thing to do.  Honorable even, because if that Stravag Inner Sphere Dog was a -real- warrior, he would have enough speed and range to fight back.

A Puma pilot with true honor would hold his fire unless he was within nine hexes. Then he'd only use one PPC, or dial down the power on both.
My wife writes books
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bobthecoward

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #43 on: 25 May 2018, 15:24:59 »
A Puma pilot with true honor would hold his fire unless he was within nine hexes. Then he'd only use one PPC, or dial down the power on both.
[/quote
What about just average honor?

Colt Ward

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #44 on: 25 May 2018, 15:37:39 »
I think Weirdo is being slightly facetious . . . since the armor difference between the two mechs is pretty decent.  IE the Hunchback will go internal anywhere with a single hit IIRC while the Adder Prime could not go internal on the torso on a single hit.  I do agree, if you want to show they are made of brass you hold fire until 9 or even better 6 hexes . . . but some of what factors into it IMO is the size of the Trial.  If its just these two its one thing, if we are talking about a long battle against a company or battalion . . .
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Weirdo

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #45 on: 25 May 2018, 16:00:37 »
A Puma pilot with true honor would hold his fire unless he was within nine hexes. Then he'd only use one PPC, or dial down the power on both.
What about just average honor?

Average honor gets you to the age of fifty, in solahma duty. True honor gets you a Bloodname and couplings. Be honorable. Get laid. 8)

I think Weirdo is being slightly facetious . . . since the armor difference between the two mechs is pretty decent.  IE the Hunchback will go internal anywhere with a single hit IIRC while the Adder Prime could not go internal on the torso on a single hit.  I do agree, if you want to show they are made of brass you hold fire until 9 or even better 6 hexes . . . but some of what factors into it IMO is the size of the Trial.  If its just these two its one thing, if we are talking about a long battle against a company or battalion . . .

If it were a larger fight for a bigger goal...I'd hold fire any time I was outside nine hexes, but go full power inside that.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

marcussmythe

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #46 on: 25 May 2018, 16:43:23 »
What about just average honor?


Average honor gets you to the age of fifty, in solahma duty. True honor gets you a Bloodname and couplings. Be honorable. Get laid. 8)

If it were a larger fight for a bigger goal...I'd hold fire any time I was outside nine hexes, but go full power inside that.

Hmm.  Trueborn ducks into 7 when he wins initiative, firing 2x15 damage at between 4 and 6, Spheroid is throwing 1x20 and 2x5 at 11 at best.  If he runs, he would need 13's

Id take that bet.






Foxx Ital

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #47 on: 25 May 2018, 16:51:40 »
I'd rather fight that puma with no range restrictions than face a squad of elemental in an American football game.  xp
Clan Ghost Bear:  We may not like you, but you're not bothering us, so you may exist.
 If your BA tactics can't be described as shenanigans, you're probably doing it wrong. ^-^ -Weirdo
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Lt_Jam

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #48 on: 26 May 2018, 21:34:09 »
Is there a modern rulebook that contains all the rules for clan honor in the boardgame?  If so which one is it?

Weirdo

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Re: Clan fighting styles in actual games
« Reply #49 on: 26 May 2018, 21:42:10 »
Total War.
My wife writes books
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

 

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