Clan fighting styles in actual games

[glitterboy2098]

While it's true that the Clans assumed the Inner Sphere would magically know about the system they invented entirely on their own (I love the Clans!), the Inner Sphere did quickly adapt to exploiting the system.  Sometimes for the worse, like the planet that challenged Clan Ghost Bear to a game of American Football instead of a 'mech duel. 

my favorite example of the early invasion honor weirdness was on of the first non-periphery worlds hit in the combine. it was a remote world, with no real defense. when the clans arrived, they did their little challenge.. and theo nly person to respond was an old retired DCMS pilot with an introtech archer. who, in combine fashion, responded with a recitation of linage and service history and accepted single combat.
so the fate of that world fell to a one on one duel between an old Samurai in an Archer and the pilot of a Nova omnimech. apparently the archer pilot faired well enough despite the tech imbalance.
i love it because it is an example of both the clan and the combine honor systems actually working synergisticly.. instead of the IS just being confused and steamrolled, or figuring out how to exploit and troll the clan invaders.

i also sometimes wonder if said pilot had been with the Ryuken at Misery, where the Combine and Clan honor system had last met in such fashion (via the Wolf's Dragoons)

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I've only seen one way that actually works to factor in Clan Zell (specifically, bidding) vs IS forces:  Both players have a common reference in a roster of the IS side, but neither side is yet presumed to be IS or Clan.  Both players bid against that IS list and the lowest bid plays the Clan side and the "loser" of the bid plays the IS side.

As for a balanced way to represent Zell on a battlefield:  I'm convinced there isn't one.  As opined upthread, it's a roleplaying schtick.  If one were to try to codify a balanced way of doing Zell, I'm thinking the only way it could work is for the competition to be between two players ostensibly on the same side of the battle competing for greater honor and glory than the other against a common, third force ran by a third player or a GM.  Tally up some list of "achievements" and/or assign point values to certain feats in order to keep it from being subjective as to who won the greater honor.

[bobthecoward]

Assume a versus game that is using bid down. By convention,the bid is down to as low as needed to win.

What percent chance of victory is that?

It seems under that interpretation, the clan should always possess a significant bv2 advantage.

[Colt Ward]

TDC . . . I actually like that idea and will have to suggest it to my agent.

IS Defenders of Some City have two objectives to defend and have their force already set.  Those who want to play Clan prepare their side as X Clan, those who want to defend the IS against the invaders are on that side.  The Clan players bid between themselves for the two objectives, one being more prestigious for some reason.  Then the Clan players bid between themselves for inclusion . . . then besides bidding between themselves they also compete in performance on the battlefield.  The IS players would give out reputation for feats- more than just winning your duels.  So to be the top Clan player you had to do it in style!  In a Nova Prime dueling a Thunderbolt when a Vedette sticks its nose out?  Style points for DFA'ing the Vedette while in your duel with the TBolt.

Hmmm . . .

[Colt Ward]

Assume a versus game that is using bid down. By convention,the bid is down to as low as needed to win.

What percent chance of victory is that?

It seems under that interpretation, the clan should always possess a significant bv2 advantage.

Provided the Clan force is not fighting in a phone booth, the 3060s equivalency is one IS company to a binary of Clan mechs.  Honestly, from what I have played the cutdown is typically 80%-90% of the IS BV.

[bobthecoward]

Provided the Clan force is not fighting in a phone booth, the 3060s equivalency is one IS company to a binary of Clan mechs.  Honestly, from what I have played the cutdown is typically 80%-90% of the IS BV.

And how often does the clan player win in that case?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

TDC . . . I actually like that idea and will have to suggest it to my agent.

IS Defenders of Some City have two objectives to defend and have their force already set.  Those who want to play Clan prepare their side as X Clan, those who want to defend the IS against the invaders are on that side.  The Clan players bid between themselves for the two objectives, one being more prestigious for some reason.  Then the Clan players bid between themselves for inclusion . . . then besides bidding between themselves they also compete in performance on the battlefield.  The IS players would give out reputation for feats- more than just winning your duels.  So to be the top Clan player you had to do it in style!  In a Nova Prime dueling a Thunderbolt when a Vedette sticks its nose out?  Style points for DFA'ing the Vedette while in your duel with the TBolt.

Hmmm . . .

Since my post, I've thought more about it...

It might be a helluva hoot for a 4 player game where everyone's Clan.  Two teams of two players, but at the end of the day it's still 1 player wins: Whoever racks up the most Zell achievements/points.  It'd be a very interesting dynamic where which team wins the Trial is secondary concern to which player wins the most points/honor.  Very appropriately Trueborn-like where making your codex look good is more important than your Clan winning!

[Colt Ward]

And how often does the clan player win in that case?

Considering that bidding rarely happens, it would be difficult to say.  I have won most of my Trials but its never easy to figure the cut down . . . I mean if your a Wolf player in a canyon against a Lyran Wall of Steel . . . what is the bid?

[bobthecoward]

Considering that bidding rarely happens, it would be difficult to say.  I have won most of my Trials but its never easy to figure the cut down . . . I mean if your a Wolf player in a canyon against a Lyran Wall of Steel . . . what is the bid?

Odds of winning something is a weird concept. There is an illusion of risk in RPGs I have no idea how to translate into a battle tech campaign.

Suppose you wanted a campaign to last up to 20 fights. After 20 fights, suppose you want an average player to have a 50% chance of "success" (whatever it is) and a single failure stops it (like a TPK, or near, TPK, or whatever).

Then the average chance of success in each mission would need to be 96.6%.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

The nature of wargaming wanting to provide a balanced scenario is inherently at odds with conventional wisdom/military doctrine of considering anything less than a 3 to 1 advantage on the attack as being improper. 

The whole concept of Bidding is awkward because it's not clear if the foundational assumption is based in military science or wargaming: is the cutdown assuming the 3 to 1 ratio inherent to (realistic) military planning, or not?

[marcussmythe]

I imagine that so long as they are competing against one another in bidding, they would cut down to exactly the least each believes they need to barely scratch out a win.  Otherwise as soon as I bid 3:1, someone will offer 2.9:1, and we are still off to the races.

This results in something like 'wargamer fair fights'.  Which is both befitting the clan ethos, and at odds with it - because challenging an IS HBK-G to 'duel' on a featureless plain, while driving a Puma Prime, and then promising to do it with only one PPC, strikes me as a very clan thing to do.  Honorable even, because if that Stravag Inner Sphere Dog was a -real- warrior, he would have enough speed and range to fight back.

[Colt Ward]

When I say Trial, it basically comes down to single battles . . . played through Falcon & Wolf years ago, did those grudge matches against Falcons years ago, and ones later on.

But its a interesting question . . . the Bears won the bid to defend the call to invade by cutting the forces down from 16 to 1 to 4 to 1- and nearly LOST against Ulric.  The Wolves fought the Falcons in the Refusal War and had to go into the fights with something like 66% to 75% of the forces the Falcons had, but they also fielded Omnis & were better pilots.  They won those fights too, but . . .

[Weirdo]

This results in something like 'wargamer fair fights'.  Which is both befitting the clan ethos, and at odds with it - because challenging an IS HBK-G to 'duel' on a featureless plain, while driving a Puma Prime, and then promising to do it with only one PPC, strikes me as a very clan thing to do.  Honorable even, because if that Stravag Inner Sphere Dog was a -real- warrior, he would have enough speed and range to fight back.

A Puma pilot with true honor would hold his fire unless he was within nine hexes. Then he'd only use one PPC, or dial down the power on both.

[bobthecoward]

A Puma pilot with true honor would hold his fire unless he was within nine hexes. Then he'd only use one PPC, or dial down the power on both.
[/quote
What about just average honor?

[Colt Ward]

I think Weirdo is being slightly facetious . . . since the armor difference between the two mechs is pretty decent.  IE the Hunchback will go internal anywhere with a single hit IIRC while the Adder Prime could not go internal on the torso on a single hit.  I do agree, if you want to show they are made of brass you hold fire until 9 or even better 6 hexes . . . but some of what factors into it IMO is the size of the Trial.  If its just these two its one thing, if we are talking about a long battle against a company or battalion . . .

[Weirdo]

A Puma pilot with true honor would hold his fire unless he was within nine hexes. Then he'd only use one PPC, or dial down the power on both.

What about just average honor?

Average honor gets you to the age of fifty, in solahma duty. True honor gets you a Bloodname and couplings. Be honorable. Get laid. 8)

I think Weirdo is being slightly facetious . . . since the armor difference between the two mechs is pretty decent.  IE the Hunchback will go internal anywhere with a single hit IIRC while the Adder Prime could not go internal on the torso on a single hit.  I do agree, if you want to show they are made of brass you hold fire until 9 or even better 6 hexes . . . but some of what factors into it IMO is the size of the Trial.  If its just these two its one thing, if we are talking about a long battle against a company or battalion . . .

If it were a larger fight for a bigger goal...I'd hold fire any time I was outside nine hexes, but go full power inside that.

[marcussmythe]

What about just average honor?


Average honor gets you to the age of fifty, in solahma duty. True honor gets you a Bloodname and couplings. Be honorable. Get laid. 8)

If it were a larger fight for a bigger goal...I'd hold fire any time I was outside nine hexes, but go full power inside that.

Hmm.  Trueborn ducks into 7 when he wins initiative, firing 2x15 damage at between 4 and 6, Spheroid is throwing 1x20 and 2x5 at 11 at best.  If he runs, he would need 13's

Id take that bet.

[Foxx Ital]

I'd rather fight that puma with no range restrictions than face a squad of elemental in an American football game.  xp

[Lt_Jam]

Is there a modern rulebook that contains all the rules for clan honor in the boardgame?  If so which one is it?

[Weirdo]

Total War.