2750 or 3057, which Warship designs to be used, why was their artwork redone?

[FawcettE]

Hiho  :D searching the forum didn't provide me with satisfying results.

Between the publication dates of TRO:2750 and TRO:3057 lies a time of 5 years.
Why were those Warship designs completely redone? Cannot believe, the artist of TRO:3057 did those new ones by accident?  ???

And what does it mean for us players?
As the old 2750-designs are now acquirable via Ironwind Metals' online store ...
which designs are new players recommended to choose?

2750 for everything pre-exodus, including the time-period after the clan's "golden century"?
3057 for some few clans (Jade-Falcons, Steel Vipers, Nova Cat, ... which else?!)? And are those different designs possibly mixed in one touman?

What designs would a player take, who wants to play the Wolf's Dragoons warships?  :))
(this last question haunts us especially, since we only can estimate those could be ClanWidowmaker-->ClanWolfCacheFleet-->PartOfWolfDragoonTaskForceAsOf3005 ... so the technically inferior 2750 variant is to be chosen?)

[marauder648]

Probably due to legal shenanigans with them not having rights to the artwork *cough*unseen*cough* and so to stop that they just re-did the art work with an etch-a-sketch and fuzzy felts. 

I like the artwork for the 2750 ships far more than the 3057 art, but the art of the revised 3057 and the 'lost' ships at the back blows them both out the water.  Its the same with the 3067 art for the ships, its amazing stuff. The problem is because of the...'iffy' nature of the looks of most of the 3057 art (some look good, not all but some) they don't match up at all with the art of the revised 'lost' ships or anything like the house lords ships in 3067 or ANY other book where warships are shown as new designs. 

If I had monies I'd throw it at the Btech folks to see if I could get them to commission an artist or three to re-do the 3057 ships so that 3/4 of them don't look like dogs eggs.

[snewsom2997]

If I am not mistaken, the art for TRO3057 was drawn without the artist having any knowledge of the art in TRO2750. Since they were all dawn with the floor being perpendicular thrust, I doubt they were shown the rules in Aerospace/Battlespace either.

Art was commissioned, and Art was provided, however little thought was given to continuity.

[Weirdo]

I asked about this a couple forum incarnations ago, and the answer Randall Bills gave was this: In-universe, SLDF shipbuilding evolved over the lifetime of a class, with the earliest vessels looking like 2750 models, and the last ones built looking like 3057s. During their pre-REVIVAL refit, all Clan ships were upgraded completely to the 3057 standard.

To sum up: SLDF ships, or salvage of such ships are canonically 2750 OR 3057. Clan ships are all 3057.

If you're feeling ambitious, you could try to kitbash something that's halfway between them even.

[cray]

If I am not mistaken, the art for TRO3057 was drawn without the artist having any knowledge of the art in TRO2750.

I also heard something like that. The "oh shit" moment happened way too late in the process to change it.

[Pouncer]

Quite a few years ago I drew up a version of the Aegis that was meant to be an early revision, showing some of the elements that would become the 3057 but still many of the original's lines.  Unfortunately that sketchbook seems to have gone missing.

-POUNCER

[Intermittent_Coherence]

Most of the 2750 designs looked like phallic symbols of varying sizes. With fins and what not.

Not all of the 3057 redesigns were that good, IMHO. The Mckenna was badass of course what with that shark like aesthetic. Same with the Lola and the Cameron. And of course the Aegis looks more solid.

I'm kinda neutral on the Soviet Soyuz, the Potemkin and the Liberator.

I could do without the Texas trowel, the Black Lion drumstick, the Congress bellows, the Vincent brick, or the Essex.

[Daryk]

The original Vincent was much better, in my opinion.  Given the fluff about modularity for the Vincents, I'm going to stick with that art if I do any variants.

[marauder648]

The original Vincent was much better, in my opinion.  Given the fluff about modularity for the Vincents, I'm going to stick with that art if I do any variants.

Oh so true! The modern Vincent looks like either a football coaches whistle or some weird tea strainer.

[Weirdo]

My personal headcanon:

Vincents Mk 39(or below, if we ever get any) are 2750s, while Mk 42 means 3057.

Lola Is are 2750, IIs are the ship in the foreground of the 3057r art, and IIIs are 3057.

Essex Is are 2750, while all ships of the second Essex class are 3057.

All Aegii started as 2750s, but any that received the Di Tron refit to the 2750 stats became 3057 in appearance. Yes, I know that sentence can be very confusing. :)

Black Lion Is and early Black Lions are 2750s(with the ships of the second class deliberately engineered so that their radar returns might confuse older warbook programs), while they eventually evolved into the Phalon-style 3057s. A crime against style if you ask me, but it is what it is.

Like the Black Lion, all Davion and early Terran Congrii are 2750s, with later Terran/SLDF construction evolving into 3057s, with equally dire aesthetic consequences.

[marauder648]

Weirdo your head canon makes a LOT of sense :)  Thing is not all of the 3057 art is poopy pants.

The Sov Soy looks good, as does the Essex and Liberator, the Cameron looks good too especially when you see it in something like this.



And the Lola even looks good but it has to be of this quality whilst I prefer the 3057 Aegis over the older art and the McKenna looks alright (not great but alright).

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/images/c/cf/CBS_Blood_Fury.jpg  (not shown because its a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE picture)

But the rest... Ugh!  The Vinny looks like a christmas cracker toy or something you find in a Kinder Surprise, the Whirlwind just looks ugly, the Congress looks like a designer mouse whilst the Black Lion looks like some kind of ladies 'personal relaxation' toy. The York's an iron (with an extra steam feature), the Texas looks like something used to plain wood whilst I'm not going to mince words here, the Potemkin and Volga look like err....'male relaxation...toys...' or something you order off specialist websites.

Again if I had monies i'd throw it at the Btech folks see if I could get them to revise the revised book and just re-work the art of all the dropships, jumpships and Warships so they don't look rubbish.  Things is the 3057 IS ships look fine really, its just the SLDF/Clan ones that look god aweful.

If I could draw beyond match stick men i'd give it a shot!

[croaker]

My own headcanon:

All published, named ships with art in TRO 2750 look like that art. The 3057 art of these ships (with some exceptions listed below) do not exist and are a figment of your imagination.

The 3057 sculpts for the Black Lion and Congress exist but are different, original ships.

The 3057 McKenna art is what the Nightlord battleship actually looks like, but the mini is badly out of scale.

[HobbesHurlbut]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/images/c/cf/CBS_Blood_Fury.jpg  (not shown because its a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE picture)

Oh Thanks! I had that for my wallpaper on my old computer and I had forgot about it!

[Fireangel]

Since we're talking headcannon, to me the 2750 ships were built by one company's specs, while the 3057 were built by a different set of specs: the name of the class refers to the SLDF requisition, which "rubbed off" to other ships built for the class.

In other words, they are two completely different ships of two different classes that happen to have identical stats because they were designed and submitted by separate companies to fulfill the exact same specifications.

Heck, this justifies divergent appearances of the same subclass types and allows for the possibility of a third "look" made by a different company.

That's just my .02 c-bills...

[FawcettE]

Ok, your answering helps me a verylot to orientation  O0

But in Technical Readout 3057 revised (p. 128, see attachment) it is stated, that both ship designs are existing in Clan toumans.
By name Clans Wolf, Ghost Bear & Smoke Jaguar are some that deploy PRE-exodus ships. (with pre-exodus tech?  :D ) ...

How am I supposed to use that important canon-information??  :o

I'm working on a project, warship etc. guide where this info is vital in doing my "job", giving fellow players a quick overview when creating space scenarios.
(see attachment)

[Intermittent_Coherence]

Ok, your answering helps me a verylot to orientation  O0

But in Technical Readout 3057 revised (p. 128, see attachment) it is stated, that both ship designs are existing in Clan toumans.
By name Clans Wolf, Ghost Bear & Smoke Jaguar are some that deploy PRE-exodus ships. (with pre-exodus tech?  :D ) ...

How am I supposed to use that important canon-information??  :o

I'm working on a project, warship etc. guide where this info is vital in doing my "job", giving fellow players a quick overview when creating space scenarios.
(see attachment)

Actually, what that means is that the aforementioned Clans used ships that had been launched prior to the Exodus, where as the others use ships that are newly built in the Kerensky cluster. It does not exactly specify what design aesthetic the ships themselves used. Notably the art in Operation Klondike used 3057 designs almost exclusively. With just one exception, a Lola.

Also by the time Operation Revival came along, most of the ships in the Clans fleet had been refitted with new Clan technologies such as Harjel, along with older tech such as LF batteries. The assumption is whatever remained of the "old" designs would have been refitted to the new ones as well by this time.

[marauder648]

Thing is the Clan 'upgrades' then don't make sense, they just visually ruin their ships and in some cases radically alter the design whilst not doing anything to them other than enlarging the aerospace bays for the Clan base 5 fighter groups  and throwing on a lithium fusion battery. 

Instead its a case of

Scientist 1 - So, these new designs, what about point defences? We know from the Pentagon Civil War and the Amaris war that nuclear missiles and fighter swarms are a major threat to warships and we are sure that the robber lords lack any warships of their own but might have Aerospace assents a pleanty, enough to be a threat.

Scientists 2 - We don't need them, this is basically us putting some chrome rims on them despite it being a Prius.

S1 - Err..so..no improvements at all, no alterations, nothing, just PURELY visual?

S2 - Yep!  What can possibly go wrong.

If they took the time to in some cases massively rebuild a ship for purely cosmetic changes save the LF battery and harjel then it just makes absolutely no sense, even for the Clans to waste resources rebuilding and altering the exterior of their warship fleet without altering them in some way to improve upon them.  Basically all they did was put a body kit on the ship. 

Although with some classes it would be a complete rebuild.



to this god aweful abomination.



Thats not a body kit, thats a complete rebuild of the ship which was done seemingly purely for cosmetic reasons.  That just makes no sense.

[Intermittent_Coherence]

Thing is the Clan 'upgrades' then don't make sense, they just visually ruin their ships and in some cases radically alter the design whilst not doing anything to them other than enlarging the aerospace bays for the Clan base 5 fighter groups  and throwing on a lithium fusion battery. 

Instead its a case of

Scientist 1 - So, these new designs, what about point defences? We know from the Pentagon Civil War and the Amaris war that nuclear missiles and fighter swarms are a major threat to warships and we are sure that the robber lords lack any warships of their own but might have Aerospace assents a pleanty, enough to be a threat.

Scientists 2 - We don't need them, this is basically us putting some chrome rims on them despite it being a Prius.

S1 - Err..so..no improvements at all, no alterations, nothing, just PURELY visual?

S2 - Yep!  What can possibly go wrong.

And Harjel. Don't forget the Harjel.

Really, the Clans venerate the old Star League heritage so much and focus on ground combat so much, it's kinda understandable, if you squint a bit. The Star League on the other hand, had been actively using these ships for centuries and never really thought of adding anything.

[marauder648]

True but even so it still to me makes little sense to spend resources the Clan's really didn't have to basically pimp my ride.  With the SLDF I can kind of understand it because they simply didn't need to. 

For the Clans the loss of a Warship is basically near irreplaceable, especially if its a major unit.  The SLDF never came at you with one warship, it came at you with dozens, with supporting fighters and dropships and an entirely different doctrine.

The Clan's whilst forming ships into Naval Stars didn't keep them together in groups but instead used them as singletons which in turn made them very vulnerable as the SLDF ships were not meant to operate alone, but as part of a squadron or flotilla, and the Clan ships then lacked that defence in depth. 

That and the rules for AMS and stuff had barely been put on paper when TRO2750 turned up and it always hinted that the ships had smaller weapons (IE Mech scale) but they were not on the rules because they simply didn't matter.

[Intermittent_Coherence]

That and the rules for AMS and stuff had barely been put on paper when TRO2750 turned up and it always hinted that the ships had smaller weapons (IE Mech scale) but they were not on the rules because they simply didn't matter.

Not as if most Clans bothered much with actual naval doctrine. Shrugs..

And yeah, you'd think by the time 3057 came along somebody would finally go into detail on what mech scale weapons these ships had. Instead the stats were more or less a reprint of the old ones.

[Weirdo]

And yeah, you'd think by the time 3057 came along somebody would finally go into detail on what mech scale weapons these ships had. Instead the stats were more or less a reprint of the old ones.

We know exactly what mech-scale guns they have, per 3057r. There aren't any missing guns from those stats.

Remember, SLDF ships don't really need conventional guns, they do AA just fine without them.

But in Technical Readout 3057 revised (p. 128, see attachment) it is stated, that both ship designs are existing in Clan toumans.
By name Clans Wolf, Ghost Bear & Smoke Jaguar are some that deploy PRE-exodus ships. (with pre-exodus tech?  :D ) ...

Per Randall's explanation, those ships were refitted prior to REVIVAL, and this now sport 3057 appearances. I'm not commenting on the plausibility, I'm just saying what it is.

[croaker]

I have to agree with Marauder648.

The art change just doesn't make sense.

More than that, the 3057 art doesn't make in-universe logical sense.
All of it is clearly

a) designed for ships whose gravity plane is paralell to the direction of thrust - that 'forward' is 90 degrees away from 'down'.

b) designed by 'rule of what looks cool' rather than anything logical or sensible.

c) the miniatures for them are massively out of scale by comparison - look at the 3057 McKenna next to a 2750 one. Same with the Aegis, Vincent, etc.

[Weirdo]

Feel free to make your headcanon whatever you want, but it is what it is.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

We know why it is the way it is.  The problem doesn't go away no matter how you answer it.  It's an impossible situation.

TPTB's answer is predicated on keeping everything canon.  You can find more rational answers if you toss out this part of canon or that, but their priority was to avoid doing that.

I don't fully agree with the formula for determining what canon trumps what (I think older sources should trump newer, rather than the other way around) but it's not up to me to make that decision.  There are other cases where writers/artists mistakenly re-create something when they thought they were creating something entirely new.  But most of those inconsistencies date a good ways back, like the different artwork for the warships.  CGL now bends over backwards with fact checking to ensure as best they can they don't create new paradoxes like these.  I think everyone can support that.

But of those that they inherited, as Weirdo says they are what they are.  You might not like how the square peg is hammered into a round hole, but if you hammer it a different way it's not going to really improve the situation.

[snewsom2997]

Here is the way I look at it. Warships are basically 3 parts, Interplanetary Drive, KF-Drive, and a Skyscraper.

When the Clans did their Refits, they just used the Interplanetary Drive and KF-Drive, everything else they just tossed, recycled, refurbished, then they rebuilt the Skyscraper around that foundation, reduces the amount of raw materials required. The Aegeii alone were pushing 500 years old, I imagine the Skyscraper portion of the ship was very tired, I am amazed any are flying at all after 700 years.

As to why, the previously mentioned Harjel, and expanded ASF Bays, Clan Armor, Elemental Sized passages, and in the case of the Liberator, York, Conqueror everything else.

The Clans were stingy they wouldn't have rebuilt/redesigned the weaponry, they would have fixed what they needed to, rebuilt the structure for Harjel, LFB, Armor, ASF Bays, and just put everything else back on. Also if you make it look different it maybe doesn't tie back to the SL in Exile, if someone runs across a patrol in the deep periphery and manages to escape back to the IS.

With there being so few Shipyards and many ships, I expect it would've taken the better part of the Golden Century to the Invasion to rebuild all the ships, and they didn't even get to them all, as witnessed by the naval caches plundered/destroyed during the WoR.

At this point, 20 years later it don't matter except for the sake of argument.  :)

[Intermittent_Coherence]

Aegis Heavy Cruisers would have been refitted just prior to the Reunification Wars, apart from the minor one that the Clans performed to install Harjel. Even then, the design had been a few centuries old.

[croaker]

If the refits resembled the original designs in the slightest, I'd consider accepting the story. But they don't.




Ask anyone not a Battletech Otaku what those pictures show, and they'll tell you they're two totally different, unrelated spaceships. Probably from different games/sources.

And it cannot be the same transit drive. The Congress shows 3 large thrust outlets. Whatever that other ship is, it has one, of about the same size as the individual ones on the Congress.

And it still doesn't address the scale issue. Such as why the 3057-style minis tend to mass about 10 times as much as the real sculpts.

[Maingunnery]

real sculpts.

That is subjective. People will have various opinions on which versions are the real/better one.

[croaker]

That is subjective. People will have various opinions on which versions are the real/better one.

And you completely fail to address the real question, which is WHY are so many of the 3057 sculpts so badly out of scale. If that's the intended scale of the game then why are so many of the 2750 sculpts - which were made into miniatures well after the others determined the scale - so much smaller?

[Maingunnery]

And you completely fail to address the real question, which is WHY are so many of the 3057 sculpts so badly out of scale. If that's the intended scale of the game then why are so many of the 2750 sculpts - which were made into miniatures well after the others determined the scale - so much smaller?

It has happened with Mechs as well. But the 3057 sculpts look better next to dropship sculpts, but are a bit impracticably big.

[Weirdo]

The scale is inconsistent. From what I've heard, there was confusion as to how big they wanted ships to be during the first several sculpts. It is what it is.

[croaker]

Mechs get a little out of scale, yes.

But you don't see people trying to play a six-inch-tall Phoenix Hawk next to a two-inch Atlas.

[Knightmare]

But the 3057 sculpts look better next to dropship sculpts, but are a bit impracticably big.

You know, I had completely forgotten about that so I took out my first sculpt Aegis and Fox, and put them next to some micro-scale DropShips and they look pretty good. I placed the same micro ships next to a Naga and they look down right huge!

[glitterboy2098]

honestly i prefer the 3057 art. the 2750 art all the ships pretty much looked the same, just different sizes of giant [censored] with a few fins sticking off.

the 3057 art, while occasionaly resulting in a few odd window layouts when the decks are plotted out, at least all look distinct.

[FawcettE]

Ok guys  O0 thank you all for the different arguments, theories and links to appropriate sources.

I'm now fully into writing the mentioned guide. I've come to the conclusion that headcanon has to fit individually ... since there IS a gap in official Catalyst data until today.
Never mind  ^-^ it should not be confusing, but refreshing too for new players.

I'll try to list up the different headcanon point of views you gave. Personally I'm slightly (!!) favoring Weirdo's (et al's) theories that ship "look" would have most certainly occured during Star League times. And ...  ;D such one would better explain an Aegis 3057 design appearing in the Historical:1stSuccessionWar, bombing the planet surface ...?
But I'll not recommend and will leave it up to every player. (Could be the better solution BECAUSE there are that different opinions on how ... ummh sexual/sick some designs appear to the people  O:-) there are very different favored looks in 2750 and 3057, I now see)

So decoupling look factor and tech-variant from each other. We might even have a solution for our Wolf's Dragoons player --> he's free to argue >:D

Again, thanks alot !! ;)

[marauder648]

Just leave these here:

http://imgur.com/a/zmloy

Vincent
Potemkin
Congress
Nightlord
Texas
Black Lion
McKenna
Leviathan (not yet finished)

I prefer the 2750 art for spaceships, I can't STAND most of the 3057 redone stuff hence these commissions.  But I know the 2750 ships were basically long sausages so they changed in the commissions to be more...spaceshippy.

[Colt Ward]

Not as if most Clans bothered much with actual naval doctrine. Shrugs..

Its still better than FedCom doctrine- "I RAM it with my warships!  No more ships?  What are we supposed to ram with?"

[I am Belch II]

Just leave these here:

http://imgur.com/a/zmloy

Vincent
Potemkin
Congress
Nightlord
Texas
Black Lion
McKenna
Leviathan (not yet finished)

I prefer the 2750 art for spaceships, I can't STAND most of the 3057 redone stuff hence these commissions.  But I know the 2750 ships were basically long sausages so they changed in the commissions to be more...spaceshippy.

That is some good stuff. I like some of the upgrades.

[HobbesHurlbut]

Its still better than FedCom doctrine- "I RAM it with my warships!  No more ships?  What are we supposed to ram with?"

DropShips! Don't you know that's how Katrina Loyalists lost an Avalon!?

[HobbesHurlbut]

Just leave these here:

http://imgur.com/a/zmloy

Vincent
Potemkin
Congress
Nightlord
Texas
Black Lion
McKenna
Leviathan (not yet finished)

I prefer the 2750 art for spaceships, I can't STAND most of the 3057 redone stuff hence these commissions.  But I know the 2750 ships were basically long sausages so they changed in the commissions to be more...spaceshippy.

Who are the artists behind those? I see Plog, and who else?

[marauder648]

The Texas, Black Lion and McKenna are drawn by - http://shimmering-sword.deviantart.com/

[Rtifs]

The real question is, what happened to the Bug Eye?

[Weirdo]

It's in ISP3.

[I am Belch II]

I  like some of the 2750 Artwork better then the 3057 Artwork and versa vice.
I think the 2750 Ships are more what the ships should look like, with guns, and engines, and fins.
I like the 2750 Artwork for the Black Lion and Aegis more then the 3057.
I like the 3057 Artwork for the McKenna much more then the 2750, to me it looks scary.

[Sjhernan3060]

I asked about this a couple forum incarnations ago, and the answer Randall Bills gave was this: In-universe, SLDF shipbuilding evolved over the lifetime of a class, with the earliest vessels looking like 2750 models, and the last ones built looking like 3057s. During their pre-REVIVAL refit, all Clan ships were upgraded completely to the 3057 standard.

To sum up: SLDF ships, or salvage of such ships are canonically 2750 OR 3057. Clan ships are all 3057.

If you're feeling ambitious, you could try to kitbash something that's halfway between them even.

The ships in clan naval caches during the wars of reading? 2750 or 3057 in appearance?

[Weirdo]

If they're still stock SLDF ships, either 2750 or 3057.

If they've been refitted in any way by the Clans, most likely 3057, though 2750 is not impossible.

In both cases, it boils down to: Your choice.

[Wotan]

As far as i know there are only 2 ships in the clan arsenal that looks like the TRO2750 art.
The Texas class CJF Falcon's Nest as described in the Somerset Strikers sourcebook (p91).
And the Texas class SLS Prinz Eugen - as it is one of the oldest Texas and i don't believe the clans would spend any effort to upgrade their prison ship.

While we know some artwork from different sourcebooks that use 2750 artwork for clan warships, i don't think that artwork count for canon status.

[Weirdo]

I definitely won't argue with your bit about the Clans refusing to upgrade her, but I don't recall any source saying Prinz Eugen being one of the oldest Texases. Where's that from?

[Wotan]

I always had the impression the name Prinz Eugen was around very early in BT history. Just checked data on sarna - it seems the ship is at least around there in the mid-to-late 2680s or early 2690s. That means roughly half way through production time. So of the total of 52 ships it is at least one of the older ones. ;)

[Empyrus]

I can't recall if BT names ships after the first-in-class. If it does, wouldn't the oldest Texas-class ship be the Texas? Ignoring that there doesn't seem to be canonical ship with that name.

[Weirdo]

I can't recall if BT names ships after the first-in-class.

Not usually. There are a couple, such as SLS McKenna and SLS Sovetskii Soyuz, but they seem to be exceptions to the rule.

[Empyrus]

Looks like the Dreadnought is one too.
Oh, well.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah . . . Star League mostly did not do it and from what we know the Houses followed that example.