Author Topic: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?  (Read 12111 times)

Icerose20

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Up until the loss of The Solar System to the Wobbies, Comstar was the only that could produce the maneuvering drives needed for the Warships.  Not the Compact KF drives.  (Not counting the Clans)  But they can make these drives for dropships?  What I do not understand is why the IS didn't start prototyping smaller 'warships'(up to 150K tons) during the time of late 3040s till they could get the handle on making the bigger drives.  Yeah, they might be inefficient against dedicates assault dropships, but rapid reaction force to planets that have minimal garrison would be perfect for these miniWarships.

Basically, use dropships engines that are already being produced or that could be modified and design a Warship around it. 

Frabby

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #1 on: 26 September 2018, 05:02:35 »
I would rather interpret the data as thrust engines having been the last hurdle that was overcome; that doesn't say much about other hurdles such as compact KF drive manufacture or naval weaponry.

To me, the really fascinating in-universe aspect is that they designed new vessels from the ground up right from the start, instead of tipping their toes in the water first with established Star League era designs. I personally love the Fox-class corvette, but if I was in charge of the FedSuns efforts to build a WarShip then I'd have used a tried and proven design first that doesn't hold any nasty design errors. Something like the Mako or perhaps Vincent class.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #2 on: 26 September 2018, 08:48:07 »
given that compact cores are an older technology relative to the standard core, and that the IS never lost the technology to manufacture new standard cores, i suspect that they just needed data on what settings to input into the manufacturing lines. given they lost a lot of data on the actual physics behind the KF drive, they wouldn't have been able to work that out from base principles. the Helm core filled that knowledge gap, and probably had some details on the setting themselves.

Transit drives though they didn't have any infrastructure for. while they can build stuff for dropships, those are far smaller than the drives needed for even the lightest warship. and dropship drives would include a lot of features not needed for a warship (like systems to allow use in atmosphere, water landings, etc.), the removal of which would involve a substantial redesign of the engines themselves. and let not forget that the drives also provide the electrical power for the ship, which a warship would likely need a lot more of by tonnage than a dropship would, given things like the better sensors, stronger maneuvering thrusters, and possible presence of extensive energy weaponry (capital class or otherwise)

none of those are insurmountable hurdles on their own obviously, since they would all be stuff they could work out using existing knowledge. but the issue is one of scale. none of their dropship drive factories would be set up to produce drives as large as a warship would require, and it wouldn't be quite as simple as producing a bunch of small drives and strapping them together in a hull.

so i can believe that the transit drives were the last hurdle.

Comstar had maintained and even built new warships during the succession wars, and thus Terran factories for warship transit drives still existed, so them manufacturing the drives made some sense too. though i suspect that prior to Tukayyid and the Schism, the factories were under orders to drag their heels on production, to slowdown the successor state's warship production, which would not have suited comstar's long term plans.

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #3 on: 26 September 2018, 17:03:10 »
Not a bad argument, except for the Behemoth.  They absolutely could make engines for 100,000 ton ships that didn't land on planets.

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #4 on: 26 September 2018, 17:33:50 »
The problem with that is nobody was building warships small enough to use behemoth drives, and the fact that they had to go to Comstar suggests they couldn't easily scale up from that.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #5 on: 26 September 2018, 17:36:16 »
Behemoth drive system is 13,000 tons.
a hypothetical 100K warship with the same 2/3 thrust profile is 12,000 tons.
obviously there is something going on there that is different.
not that a 2/3 100K warship is going to be all that useful.


Daryk

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #6 on: 26 September 2018, 17:44:17 »
More useful than no warship at all.

And why no one thought of it is certainly a mystery.  There's plenty that you can cram into a 100,000 ton warship that can't be installed in DropShips...

Icerose20

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #7 on: 26 September 2018, 18:01:58 »
for a 100K ships, the 1K difference in drive size is just not that much to quibble about.  I wish i didnt lose my Battletech books my family has done.  So, what current book is the updated Warship construction rules at? 

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #8 on: 26 September 2018, 18:13:26 »
More useful than no warship at all.

And why no one thought of it is certainly a mystery.  There's plenty that you can cram into a 100,000 ton warship that can't be installed in DropShips...

Ooh, sounds like a design challenge waiting to happen.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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glitterboy2098

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #9 on: 26 September 2018, 18:25:46 »
Ooh, sounds like a design challenge waiting to happen.
only if you also limit it only to that hardware available circa ~3050
and include some judging criteria that discounts overly optimized designs.. (since the IS powers would not have had good naval doctrines or perfected the ideal weapons mixes and placements.. hell, even the hegemony never optimized their later stuff despite centuries of experience to draw on)
« Last Edit: 26 September 2018, 18:28:57 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #10 on: 26 September 2018, 18:29:13 »
for a 100K ships, the 1K difference in drive size is just not that much to quibble about.  I wish i didnt lose my Battletech books my family has done.  So, what current book is the updated Warship construction rules at?

Strategic Operations.  And the fact that there is any kind of tonnage difference means they are not the same engine.

Icerose20

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #11 on: 26 September 2018, 18:41:54 »
compared to the size of the craft, 1% difference is nothing. 

(Paid for the PDF of Strategic Operation, and they said no warship can be smaller then 100K tons, but I know the Bug-Eye, was 6100 Tons, so whats the deal)
« Last Edit: 26 September 2018, 19:51:53 by Icerose20 »

Frabby

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #12 on: 27 September 2018, 02:10:39 »
(Paid for the PDF of Strategic Operation, and they said no warship can be smaller then 100K tons, but I know the Bug-Eye, was 6100 Tons, so whats the deal)
The Bug-Eye didn't quite fit the rules even when it was first created (not that there were set-in-stone WarShip construction rules back then, which of course didn't stop FASA from pushing a TRO out the door...).
The Sub-compact KF Drive was then written into the rules to allow ships like the Bug-Eye to be built. But it's a fringe tech for a fringe design.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #13 on: 27 September 2018, 02:33:31 »
The Bug-Eye didn't quite fit the rules even when it was first created (not that there were set-in-stone WarShip construction rules back then, which of course didn't stop FASA from pushing a TRO out the door...).
The Sub-compact KF Drive was then written into the rules to allow ships like the Bug-Eye to be built. But it's a fringe tech for a fringe design.

Actually, the Bug Eye could be legally created as far back as battlespace, which put a minimum mass for a compact jump core (not the ship itself) at... I think 2500 tons. It only ceased to be legal when Aerotech 2 and the revised rules were released, and only became doable again with the release of tactical operations (for rules on the subcompact core) and strategic operations (for the most up to date rules on jump capable vessels in general).

In a way, I've always been a bit morose about the change in AT2. I liked having the option of making sub-hundred thousand ton ships, and the subcompact option never really scratched the itch. But now we have primitive jumpships!
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Icerose20

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #14 on: 27 September 2018, 02:36:55 »
Well, My idea for a 'mini' Warship was around 50K tons, not 100K.  But i decided to try the 100K range.  Biggest problem with creating the Warship is, the rules for construction are spread around 4 books.   It used to be 2. 

Of course, I do not build Warships the way its suggested in the book.  Step one: size, Step Two: KF Drive; step 3: THE TOYZ;  (MWHAHAHA) Step 4, i need some armor don't I, Step 5: Yeah, I need a Planetary Drive.  Step 6: Adjust TOYZ.


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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #15 on: 27 September 2018, 12:14:11 »
compared to the size of the craft, 1% difference is nothing. 


First of all it's closer to 7.7% of a difference (1,000 tons is not 1% of 13,000 tons). 

Second, that's a potential huge amount of difference, a cell phone from two decades ago while potentially nearly the same mass as a modern one had dramatically different capabilities.  Going even further back, a bronze sword, though nearly identical in mass to a steel sword will have vastly different properties.  Teching up even further just dramatically changes the potential that a certain mass can provide for whatever it is functioning with.

Icerose20

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #16 on: 27 September 2018, 13:17:33 »
So the dropship drives are more inefficent then the Warship drives.   

USN doesn't us Nuke Power on every ship, even if they are more efficent then the Gas Turbine they use on almost every other class of ship. 

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« Last Edit: 27 September 2018, 15:38:58 by Icerose20 »

glitterboy2098

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #17 on: 27 September 2018, 14:22:54 »
can you move the design over to the designs section of the forums? so the thread doesn't get moved around by the mods?

Daryk

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #18 on: 27 September 2018, 17:14:57 »
It wouldn't have been a bad thing if the mods moved the thread... a lot of what we're discussing could be best illustrated by a design or two.

Icerose20

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #19 on: 27 September 2018, 18:55:16 »
Its an interesting idea, and in some way explain how the house get to start building the far bigger warships. 

Charistoph

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #20 on: 27 September 2018, 21:13:45 »
I would rather interpret the data as thrust engines having been the last hurdle that was overcome; that doesn't say much about other hurdles such as compact KF drive manufacture or naval weaponry.

Not necessarily.  The tech for Warship transit drives was basically a rejigging Dropship drives for the needed requirements.  In relative terms, its worrying about the screw design for your cruisers when you're used to building frigates.  Most of the principles are there, but difference in scale needs to be taken in to account and what few adjustments are needed for that adjustment.

In a way its saying, "First, let's figure out how to make sure the hull doesn't cave in under its own weight as well as repel the medium its going to operate in.  Then figure out how to support the massive engine/generator we're going to power the thing with, then we'll worry about the tech we know, but just have to modify to fit."
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Starfox1701

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #21 on: 29 September 2018, 12:59:05 »
Not really a rocket engine iis a rocket engine..... There's no manufacturing reason that's logical for the bottle neck. Its not like you are building the engine oon the ground and have to boost it to orbit. Also consider the tonnage of these things. Just how the hell you going to move one of them? Building them at Sol and shipping them all over the inner sphere makes even less since then the other houses not being able tto make them in the first place.

Charistoph

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #22 on: 29 September 2018, 21:35:02 »
Not really a rocket engine iis a rocket engine..... There's no manufacturing reason that's logical for the bottle neck. Its not like you are building the engine oon the ground and have to boost it to orbit. Also consider the tonnage of these things. Just how the hell you going to move one of them? Building them at Sol and shipping them all over the inner sphere makes even less since then the other houses not being able tto make them in the first place.

Yes, the rocket engine that hobbyists send up every week is the same as what they used on the X-15, and the same as what was used for the boosters on the space shuttle.

Sarcasm done, the structural engineering that goes in to different scales of rockets is due to their different design jobs and loads.  Heck, just putting the Jump Core under the stress of movement, which is also much lighter than the Standard Core, by the way, requires different engineering challenges than just being able to lift a Mt Rushmore head at a gravity of acceleration.  The basic engine tech is already there, it's everything in between that needs consideration.
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Atarlost

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #23 on: 30 September 2018, 10:47:54 »
The thing about large craft engines is that they don't have to scale like mech and ASF engines.  The Mammoth obviously has four by the art.  The Aegis and McKenna have lovely rear shots that plainly show two and three respectively.  There's no in universe reason a small, slow, starter warship couldn't have been built around existing large dropship engines.  Two Behemoth engines (or twice as large a cluster if the Behemoth is already using a clusters) should by Newton get you a 200,000 ton 2/3 warship.  Three should get you a 3/5.  The Fox is a little larger than that, but a satisfactory starter warship could have been designed to the available dropship transit drives. 

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #24 on: 30 September 2018, 12:25:03 »
Its not like the Fox sat there for 20 years w/o an engine.

They only had the Helm Core for 25 years at that point & didn't start even working on Warships till what, 8 years?, prior to its launching.

In that time they had to work out what the Helm Core had, then had to deal w/ scaling up the shipyards to Warship production.

I'm sure there were other bottlenecks & hurdles along the way.

And its not like they were using CS engines for long.   

By the time they lost Terra the FS had 3 locations going producing 2 different warships, so they had clearly overcome their own issues & were creating engines on their own.

1 snipit of info from 3057 that was probably only relevant for a year or 2, 5 at most, is not this "it was impossible for them" that its made out to be.

They were stuck, they saw a way to speed up the process,  CS said no,  they were working on alternatives, CS finally said, Ok,  so they went with CS & continued to work on the Alternatives to bring mass production on line.

Which is why the Fox is by FAR the most mass produced IS ship come 3067 with something close to 2 dozen of the class floating around out there.

Sure the FWL & DC get credit for massive variety of ships, but the FC was making ships in raw #s designed to transport large #s of dropships to support the Army with large #s of Assault Droppers & Fleet Wings assigned to them.


The only class out there that can compare to the raw combo of (#s + size + quality of design) is the Thera which is so well designed compared to most of the other IS ships as to almost be a crime & yet gets 6-8 of them cranked out in just a few years.
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idea weenie

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #25 on: 30 September 2018, 13:45:35 »
So the dropship drives are more inefficent then the Warship drives.   

Dropship drives have to deal with vacuum and different atmosphere types, while Warship drives only have to deal with vacuum.

The additional equipment to remain efficient and safe when going from space to atmosphere could easily explain the difference in mass.

Here is a reddit post explaining more about it.  Short version is that the upper stage Merlin engine had a larger engine bell because it was to fly in vacuum.

So if you have an engine that has to work in both environments, you need some sort of containment for the exhaust while in vacuum to keep it at the engine's proper efficiency.  This could be additional magnetic field systems to extend the fusion containment, or additional panels that extend over the exhaust that are physically moved into place.  Since a pure vacuum engine (i.e. Warship) doesn't need the variable-performance modifications, it is lighter for the same thrust.

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #26 on: 30 September 2018, 17:41:14 »
Good point Idea Weenie... the thing that comes to mind though, is why not just accept the inefficiency to get a WarShip (ANY WarShip) into production?  Perhaps we should start a design forum thread for this, with the parameters being a standard Behemoth engine (13,000 tons) and everything else normal (meaning the designs would be either 100,000 tons with 2/3, or 200,000 tons with 1/2 thrust).  The latter would  be particularly scary in the 3040s...

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #27 on: 30 September 2018, 19:23:44 »
Fluff wise, they had better things to pour resources that were spread out between vast galactic partners who had the parts to supply production of a Warship's engines.  Look at the League when they tried build those 3050 destroyers, the Impavido. It took alot effort to pull in enough to just build interplanetary drives for the League.

Allegedly it was the big engines and not the compact kf drives themselves that were the issue when the TRO: 3057 explain what was going on.

Fluff wise it just plain hard get resources gathered, thus the expense went through the roof.  Which is all fluff reason, the focus of the game is Mech combat, everything secondary.  Warships could trump too much so they were made exceedingly hard to make and afford. 

Which i think sucks.  I like naval combat, i believe the universe is big enough for more than 2 warships per succession house or faction to exist. Which would not cause armies not to march on each other.
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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #28 on: 30 September 2018, 20:16:15 »
It seems that the real problem appears to be the power distribution systems.  At transit speeds a 100kt civilian dropship's engine only uses 8.83 tons of fuel per burn-day (and only 1.84 using the hyper-efficient military engines), meanwhile a warship uses more than double that at 19.75.  The K-F drive by itself may force significantly heavier power systems, and other items such as capital-scale weapons and/or electronics systems (targeting, sensors, etc.) may not be "warship-level" if left to dropship power levels. 

Could an odd merge between a warship and dropship have existed?  Probably, but some pretty serious drawbacks may have been needed to create a compromise which the house militaries were unwilling to consider (I mean, think about a heavy assault dropship, with half it's weight used towards a K-F drive, but unable to charge the K-F drive via the internal power system, and weapons stuck to standard sized).

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #29 on: 30 September 2018, 22:34:49 »
Good point Idea Weenie... the thing that comes to mind though, is why not just accept the inefficiency to get a WarShip (ANY WarShip) into production?  Perhaps we should start a design forum thread for this, with the parameters being a standard Behemoth engine (13,000 tons) and everything else normal (meaning the designs would be either 100,000 tons with 2/3, or 200,000 tons with 1/2 thrust).  The latter would  be particularly scary in the 3040s...

What makes you think the KF Core issue had been resolved in the 3040's?

They didn't even start working on the Fox till the Year of Reprieve (3050/3051) after the invasion had started.
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Icerose20

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #30 on: 01 October 2018, 00:00:19 »
Many Capellans lost their lives for that problem to be solved.  :)

The planetary drive/sub-drive should not have been the last problem they had to solve.  If they said that it was the compact KF drive, then this discussion would be moot.  That would have been what I would have thought the problem was. 

A couple of one off miniWarships mentioned, with the losses of life bring the tech to fruition would have made the almost sudden appearance of the Fox, Kyushu and others more believable, IMO. 

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #31 on: 01 October 2018, 10:27:32 »
The planetary drive/sub-drive should not have been the last problem they had to solve.  If they said that it was the compact KF drive, then this discussion would be moot.  That would have been what I would have thought the problem was. 

If it the last one addressed, after everything else, why would it be so hard to believe?

Sometimes it is not the difficulty of the situation, but the when you address it which makes the stage of development last.  The Me 262 went through development hell, but not because of any technical problems, but its mission kept getting changed so often that they could never be made in sufficient numbers to make a difference in the war.
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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #32 on: 03 October 2018, 12:06:16 »
There's also the question of how proficient the Inner Sphere actually was in the construction of Mammoth and Behemoth drives. Back in 3025 (the old DropShips and JumpShips fluff), the engines on even the Excalibur and Fortress were lostech.
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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #33 on: 03 October 2018, 15:59:32 »
True, but the Behemoth was still being built, so they couldn't have been all that non-proficient...

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #34 on: 03 October 2018, 18:23:34 »
Sigh.  Real-world example time.

Air-cooled vs liquid-cooled engines.  They can both push the same mass at the same speed.  They are,however, different designs and you cannot simply expect to use one in place of the other without serious redesign of the vehicle.

In the same vein, Dropship engines are not the same as Warship engines.  You cannot take a Behemoth's drive system and slap it onto a 100 kTon Warship and expect it to work.

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #35 on: 03 October 2018, 20:16:47 »
Except that's not what they were doing... They were building new ships de novo.  There's no reason they couldn't build the front end on top of the back end of the Behemoth.

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #36 on: 03 October 2018, 20:57:48 »
Yeah, Alexander Knight, unless you're proposing that Behemoths can't operate in space(?), that point issue was already addressed up thread.

True, but the Behemoth was still being built, so they couldn't have been all that non-proficient...

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #37 on: 04 October 2018, 00:52:56 »
Royals Royce Merlin vs Meteor  ;)

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #38 on: 05 October 2018, 18:19:45 »
Royals Royce Merlin vs Meteor  ;)

You're referring to the 1,000+hp aero engine vs the same engine adapted as a ~600hp tank engine?
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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #39 on: 06 October 2018, 10:48:06 »
Except that's not what they were doing... They were building new ships de novo.  There's no reason they couldn't build the front end on top of the back end of the Behemoth.

Capital-scale weapons require bracing in the form of a keel that can only be done with something like a KF core.  If you have a KF core, you use Warship-grade maneuver drives, not Behemoth drives.

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #40 on: 06 October 2018, 13:11:46 »
I have a lot of questions, foremost being, what in the lore makes you think a KF core requires maneuver drives different than can be had from existing large dropships or jumpships?
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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #41 on: 06 October 2018, 13:52:51 »
I have a lot of questions, foremost being, what in the lore makes you think a KF core requires maneuver drives different than can be had from existing large dropships or jumpships?

Dropship drives can have their internal parts be put almost anywhere in the center of the ship as you need.  Warship drives need to physically fit around the KF core, and the KF core has to be designed to encompass the entire Warship drive when the ship jumps.

So you could have a prototype warship with a Behemoth Dropship drive slapped onto a compact KF core, but after jump you realize that the outer parts of the engine bells weren't brought along.  Time for a redesign

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #42 on: 06 October 2018, 14:07:40 »
DropShip engines are almost uniformly located on the bottom of the ship, just as WarShip engines are; their internal components don't run up the center of the ship where the KF drive would be; a cluster of DropShip engines wouldn't have to be centerlined anymore than WarShip engines are, which doesn't matter anyway because getting a KF field to wrap around every fin, flange and nozzle is the same problem (with the same solution) no matter what kind of engines you're using or where you put them.
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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #43 on: 06 October 2018, 14:32:31 »
I have a lot of questions, foremost being, what in the lore makes you think a KF core requires maneuver drives different than can be had from existing large dropships or jumpships?

Be....cause the tonnage for a 100 Kton Warship's maneuver drive and a 100 Kton Dropship's maneuver drive are not the same?

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #44 on: 06 October 2018, 14:44:00 »
Those are indeed the rules (which factor in game balance and such).  Not necessarily what we're discussing here...

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #45 on: 06 October 2018, 16:29:04 »
Be....cause the tonnage for a 100 Kton Warship's maneuver drive and a 100 Kton Dropship's maneuver drive are not the same?

Physics doesn't particularly care as long as it provides the appropriate amount of thrust.

That's really the problem with trying to compare them using real world aircraft engines and the like. It's a completely different environment with much simpler requirements for getting the thing moving. There shouldn't be any particularly good reason why a physically impossible fusion torch able to push a hundred thousand tons of spacecraft at one gravity of acceleration in space couldn't do the same to another hundred thousand ton spacecraft arranged in a different configuration. "Because they're not the same" isn't much of an argument.

I mean, heck, if we're going by what the rules say, the behemoth drive might be even harder to build than the warship drive, since the dropship engine is more fuel efficient (8.83 tons per burn day vs 19.75 in strategic mode) and the rules presume a dropship is able to operate in an atmosphere. All dropships use the same engine equation and the Behemoth's thrust only prohibits it from landing in standard gravity, and the specific prohibition against atmospheric operations is an optional design quirk, not an automatic rule.

Now I'm not saying warships should get dropship engines. The design rules are broken enough as it is. But from a purely fluff standpoint, there's no reasonable reason a behemoth's transit drive couldn't serve as a decent starting point for developing a slightly simpler transit drive for a similarly sized warships. "It doesn't work because reasons" isn't much of an argument.

Truth is, the writers wanted to create a limitation and didn't think too hard about it. A better option might have been having problems producing a structurally stable design of that size able to handle such high acceleration (Dropships and Jumpships tells us the Behemoth is prone to structural problems above one G of acceleration due to its great size, a nice starting point), possibly magnified by the need to keep a long, thin germanium core intact, requiring engineering assistance from Comstar/the Word of Blake.

However, "they needed transit drives from comstar" is the reason we got, so we're stuck with it. With that in mind, I'd probably go with saying the behemoth drive didn't provide the power they wanted for the hulls they wanted to build, and they were too much of a hurry to put the work into developing a bigger drive. They needed to close the warship gap.

Sure, a hundred thousand ton vessel tooling around with a behemoth drive might have gotten a ship in the field faster, but nations don't just build things based on pure logic (in fact, pure logic is historically in critically short supply). They've gotta sell their leaders (most of whom have no naval background whatsoever but who decide where the money goes) and their public (most of whom have even less) the idea of the ship. That this is something that will protect their people from another Turtle Bay, or Turtle Bay the hell out of their enemies, and that the compromises they make are worth when these ships might find themselves running up against ships many, many, many times their size (if not necessarily their raw capabilities).

Hell, I still remember Davion fans complaining about how House Davion was stuck with a bunch of Foxes for a lot of their fleet, even though the Fox is arguable the most sensible "starter design" out of all of the Inner Sphere's warships. Imagine that, but they're the nobility who holds the purse strings or think they can lobby your perceived "foolish endeavors" into additional political power.

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #46 on: 06 October 2018, 17:06:37 »

What about the power draw of Capital Energy weapons?
DropShips engines can't handle that.
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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #47 on: 06 October 2018, 17:12:39 »
What about the power draw of Capital Energy weapons?
DropShips engines can't handle that.

That seems more like a question of power distribution systems. It's hard to imagine a fusion plant unable to meet the energy demands of capital energy weapons when it's able to meet the demands of that horrifyingly powerful particle cannon it uses for thrust.
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Maingunnery

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #48 on: 06 October 2018, 17:27:27 »
That seems more like a question of power distribution systems. It's hard to imagine a fusion plant unable to meet the energy demands of capital energy weapons when it's able to meet the demands of that horrifyingly powerful particle cannon it uses for thrust.
Thrust does not equal electricity..... sadly
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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #49 on: 06 October 2018, 17:40:22 »
Be....cause the tonnage for a 100 Kton Warship's maneuver drive and a 100 Kton Dropship's maneuver drive are not the same?

Which means exactly nothing. All kinds of heavy equipment get glossed over in the construction rules (landing gear, the Monolith's grappling arms, the Mammoth's detachable engine mounts) so you can't just assume that the weight difference is due to the engines themselves.

Additionally, irrespective of the issue above, the fact that the rules apply different engine types to different unit types does not imply that kind innate incompatibility. (See Inner Sphere 'Mechs using Clan engines, industrial 'Mechs and BattleMech chassis using engines or other equipment nominally restricted to each other, and so on.)

Finally, I did also ask why maneuvering drives from standard JumpShips couldn't be adapted.

Truth is, the writers wanted to create a limitation and didn't think too hard about it.

Strongly disagree. If it wasn't the engines, then there's nothing to stop the Houses from (for instance) bolting giant engines on a Merchant class and bolting weapons platforms on in place of the two collars.

What about the power draw of Capital Energy weapons?
DropShips engines can't handle that.

Secondary power plant, represented by the mass difference AK cited?
« Last Edit: 06 October 2018, 17:53:18 by skiltao »
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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #50 on: 06 October 2018, 17:54:25 »
At the end of the day, period, era; you could say the Federated Commonwealth, Draconis Combine and the Free Worlds League leadership didn't see the pressing need for the Big Warship till the Clan Invasion and Turtle Bay.  And the 3040s was seeing everywhere the lostech and other technologies coming into fruition, so its possible and doable for these nations to invest in it.  In my head, Hanse, Theodore, and Thomas were all trying to do the same thing, get the kinks out as secretly as possible and try to keep the others from finding out. 

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #51 on: 06 October 2018, 18:40:33 »
Thrust does not equal electricity..... sadly

But electricity equals electricity. Fusing hydrogen and accelerating it to literally impossible speeds isn't exactly a low power operation.

Strongly disagree. If it wasn't the engines, then there's nothing to stop the Houses from (for instance) bolting giant engines on a Merchant class and bolting weapons platforms on in place of the two collars.

Except the structure of the merchant. It can't handle the thrust. Mechanically, it struggles to handle any amount of thrust over half a G, and will rapidly cease to function (though you can't normally get one accelerating that quickly, it has a structural integrity of 1, and any vessel who spends more thrust points than their structural integrity must make a control roll or take structural damage, which would kill the jumpship). It's one thing to have the thrust to push things around, its another entirely for that thing to handle the stress of maneuvering.

The behemoth has a higher thrust capacity than any conventional jumpship in service (three thrust points for a hundred thousand ton vessel vs a tenth of a thrust point for a hypothetical max size conventional jumpship), and the original fluff indicates it has structural problems when it spends too much time using all that thrust.

Secondary power plant, represented by the mass difference AK cited?

The mass difference is in the warship's favor. Dropship transit drives require more mass than Warship drives.
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Maingunnery

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #52 on: 06 October 2018, 19:13:20 »
But electricity equals electricity. Fusing hydrogen and accelerating it to literally impossible speeds isn't exactly a low power operation.
The cores of Fusion reactors produce plasma/radiation, the rest of the power plant is likely divided between electricity conversion or plasma redirection into thrust. Having a process of: "plasma->electricity->plasma->thrust" makes no sense.   

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #53 on: 06 October 2018, 19:50:50 »
The cores of Fusion reactors produce plasma/radiation, the rest of the power plant is likely divided between electricity conversion or plasma redirection into thrust. Having a process of: "plasma->electricity->plasma->thrust" makes no sense.   

I fail to see how this is supposed to address the insane amounts of power available to the fusion plant, or how it would make a slightly larger drive from an equivalent dropship unable to power the same weapons. The fact that both are able to generate the same literally magical amount of thrust through the same method (strategic operations indicates they operate under the same principles) means they would also be able to provide the same amount of electrical power.

HOWEVER!

One thing that I think is important to note is that the Behemoth we're talking about (and the Castrum we've all been classy enough not to mention) is an outlier. It's at the uppermost edge of the dropship construction rules, and the edges of the spacecraft rules are where a lot of the flaws really stand out. Not only does the behemoth provide warship level thrust with superior fuel efficiency but an unexplained inability to use capital weapons, but its structural integrity of 30 is less resistant to damage than a warship of the same mass with the same SI, despite being just as resistant to acceleration and being five times heavier.  :D Also, the heatsinks are calculated differently, the control deck is heavier, and the ship has a hard maximum on armor levels based on SI, while the warship's armor limit is based on structure mass, and thus scales up as the ships get bigger.

So, from a fluffy standpoint, the Behemoth raises these questions of "but why can't you just..."  but from a crunchy standpoint, the real problem is that the dropship rules probably shouldn't be used to make ships this big so the questions never come up in the first place. If it were up to me, I'd strike the Behemoth and Castrum from the universe and limit dropships to fifty thousand tons.

(Actually, if it were up to me, I'd rebuild the construction rules from the ground up as a unified system that handles all types of large spacecraft, rather than different systems awkwardly cobbled together from three or four generations of radically different rulesets)
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #54 on: 06 October 2018, 19:57:36 »
the difference in mass might be just landing gear and minor atmosphere proofing. but the warship using more fuel suggests that its engine runs at a higher output (using more fuel per second), which in turn would suggest that its reactors would require specialized design and more exotic materials to handle the extra power density and stronger reaction. higher output due to greater fusion reactant density would certainly help explain why warships can mount full naval weapons but dropships can't.


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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #55 on: 06 October 2018, 20:06:25 »
Doesn't the difference in fuel usage come down to the 100kton DropShip sitting at the top of a generalized band and the 100kton WarShip sitting at the bottom of its band?

The mass difference is in the warship's favor. Dropship transit drives require more mass than Warship drives.

So... there's no basis in lore for claiming DropShip engines can't power capital weapons, and no basis in construction tonnage either. I'm fine with that.

Quote
It's one thing to have the thrust to push things around, its another entirely for that thing to handle the stress of maneuvering.

I'll agree that the Successor States clearly have trouble with large space construction of any kind, whether it's the hull or engines or both.

I would argue though that the JumpShip's SI value represents a combination of factors and (if we're talking engineering rather than rules) doesn't necessarily scale with how much forward acceleration it can handle. We do have precedent (in the original Cameron BattleCruiser fluff) for small ships being fitted with more powerful engines, and we can at least bring a Scout class close to 1G of thrust without passing the Behemoth's safe limits.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #56 on: 06 October 2018, 20:13:03 »
Doesn't the difference in fuel usage come down to the 100kton DropShip sitting at the top of a generalized band and the 100kton WarShip sitting at the bottom of its band?

Partly, but even if the warship got to use the lower band, it'd still be slightly less fuel efficient.

And it would be so much worse if the behemoth happened to be a military craft.

So... there's no basis in lore for claiming DropShip engines can't power capital weapons, and no basis in construction tonnage either. I'm fine with that.

I pretty much am too. I'm content to tell myself not to look too closely at it.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #57 on: 06 October 2018, 20:15:01 »
My sentiment is for unified construction rules as well.
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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #58 on: 06 October 2018, 21:44:21 »
Amen to that!

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #59 on: 07 October 2018, 02:35:46 »
I fail to see how this is supposed to address the insane amounts of power available to the fusion plant, or how it would make a slightly larger drive from an equivalent dropship unable to power the same weapons. The fact that both are able to generate the same literally magical amount of thrust through the same method (strategic operations indicates they operate under the same principles) means they would also be able to provide the same amount of electrical power.
The physical mechanism of which thrust is gained is different then that of electricity. To have WarShip levels of electric power one should have the high capacity energy conversion
See it like having a heat source and using it to heat up a green house, it can be done directly using circulating heat or converting the heat to electricity and back again (with the associated conversion losses). Using reactor plasma for thrust is very direct, but to get electricity will require some conversion.


Quote
If it were up to me, I'd strike the Behemoth and Castrum from the universe and limit dropships to fifty thousand tons.
They can be redesigned to 50kt, the functionality losses aren't that big, and it would make the line-up of all dropships more sensible.
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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #60 on: 07 October 2018, 04:57:12 »
To get plasma up to a significant fraction of c, electricity absolutely has to be involved.  Heck, even just pointing it in a direction involves electricity (and lots of it).

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #61 on: 07 October 2018, 06:36:58 »
To get plasma up to a significant fraction of c, electricity absolutely has to be involved.  Heck, even just pointing it in a direction involves electricity (and lots of it).
If I wanted fast plasma, I would just open up the magnetic bottle of the reactors towards the aft and make sure that the reactor makes the plasma as hot enough as possible. It would take a bit more electricity for some extra magnetic fields, but that is hardly anything compared to the thrust.

If you mostly rely on electricity then you are going to have massive conversion losses.
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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #62 on: 07 October 2018, 06:56:44 »
More useful than no warship at all.

And why no one thought of it is certainly a mystery.  There's plenty that you can cram into a 100,000 ton warship that can't be installed in DropShips...

Ooh, sounds like a design challenge waiting to happen.

Sorry to come to this thread so late or too early. I designed the Vanguard class Corvette based on the Behemoth back in February of 2010. Know I posted it but can't find it here, probably lost in the great board crash of 2011, so I will post it again now. Basically it was an alternate FedCom testbed which began research and development after the War of 3039. Also it ties in on another discussion I am having on TAG (or Tharkad Aerospace Group) as I call them.

All reposted now -
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=63136.0

My fluff is obviously for an alternate setting as if you want to canonize it I would have more ComStar and Great House espionage efforts to derail construction which would have kept it from launching before the Clan invasion when resources and the start of the Invincible Project (aka the Fox) would have discontinued the Vanguard. Please note that existing vessels while flawed could still have served as valuable training ships for rebuilding InnerSphere warship crews.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #63 on: 07 October 2018, 15:35:18 »
The physical mechanism of which thrust is gained is different then that of electricity. To have WarShip levels of electric power one should have the high capacity energy conversion
See it like having a heat source and using it to heat up a green house, it can be done directly using circulating heat or converting the heat to electricity and back again (with the associated conversion losses). Using reactor plasma for thrust is very direct, but to get electricity will require some conversion.

And yet, still doesn't explain why two drives operating on the same principles and able to produce the same amount of thrust would have different abilities to generate electricty.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Maingunnery

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #64 on: 07 October 2018, 15:52:52 »
And yet, still doesn't explain why two drives operating on the same principles and able to produce the same amount of thrust would have different abilities to generate electricty.
Why bother assuming that the drive technologies are completely the same?
For example: Piston and turbine engines can both produce torque and use fossil fuels, but they aren't the same. 
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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #65 on: 07 October 2018, 17:12:02 »
Bending fluff to inconsistent rules is inferior to bending rules to consistent fluff.  Above the quantum scale in the real world, consistency is the rule.

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #66 on: 07 October 2018, 18:12:35 »
Why bother assuming that the drive technologies are completely the same?
For example: Piston and turbine engines can both produce torque and use fossil fuels, but they aren't the same.

Why assume they aren't? The fluff indicates the transit drives of all large craft operate on the same principles (which is explained in strategic operations). The universal technology advancement table in Interstellar Operations doesn't even differentiate between dropship and warship transit drives. It's all just "maneuvering/station keeping drive components".

Clearly the difference is scale, not technology, and when you get to Behemoth sized ships, purely arbitrary.

Really, it's the Behemoth's fault for being so big.
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Maingunnery

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #67 on: 07 October 2018, 18:51:21 »
Why assume they aren't? The fluff indicates the transit drives of all large craft operate on the same principles (which is explained in strategic operations). The universal technology advancement table in Interstellar Operations doesn't even differentiate between dropship and warship transit drives. It's all just "maneuvering/station keeping drive components".

Clearly the difference is scale, not technology, and when you get to Behemoth sized ships, purely arbitrary.

Really, it's the Behemoth's fault for being so big.
Because both rules (weight, fuel efficiency, number of integrated HS) and fluff (no DS with capital energy weapons) present different performances.
As both Turbines and Piston engines might be abstracted as ICE engines in BT, they are different technologies in RL.
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Liam's Ghost

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #68 on: 07 October 2018, 20:09:30 »
Because both rules (weight, fuel efficiency, number of integrated HS) and fluff (no DS with capital energy weapons) present different performances.
As both Turbines and Piston engines might be abstracted as ICE engines in BT, they are different technologies in RL.

And yet the fluff says the dropship and warship engines operate on exactly the same principles. Unlike your piston engine and turbine, which don't. They're all fusion rockets that primarily function by firing an insanely fast stream of fusion byproduct out the back. Any differences are a factor of size, not design. Every vessel capable of strategic movement (heat expansion mode in the fluff) shoots fused helium out the tailpipe for thrust. Vessels in tactical mode (standard movement) use a combination of fusion byproduct and unfused hydrogen reaction mass, with the fraction of reaction mass increasing as the size of the drive decreases. Larger craft use almost no reaction mass and derive their thrust almost entirely from fusion byproducts, the smallest example given, light aerofighters, rely entirely on unfused hydrogen.

It's the same principle, producing the same thrust output. It's silly to assume it's somehow different when it's exactly the same and has no reason to be different. There are any number of reasons why dropships wouldn't be allowed capital weapons (power distribution, structural concerns, the fact that almost every dropship in existence is so much smaller than a warship that it's entirely reasonable that they couldn't produce the power output to support capital weapons).

Handwaving "It's different because reasons" is still just handwaving to cover up that the disconnect is a bug in the construction rules, not a feature. Almost every other dropship sorta works under these rules because they're small enough that the gaps in the rules isn't visible. The Behemoth is just too damn big.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #69 on: 07 October 2018, 21:56:05 »
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« Last Edit: 29 May 2019, 18:52:07 by Easy »

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #70 on: 07 October 2018, 22:24:22 »
Bending fluff to inconsistent rules is inferior to bending rules to consistent fluff.  Above the quantum scale in the real world, consistency is the rule.

And both are slaves to Gameplay.

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #71 on: 07 October 2018, 22:39:51 »
My understanding is that the scale gap between DropShips, and downward in tonnage, and JumpShips and WarShips is entirely due to the size of JumpDrives, JumpSails and batteries and energy conversion and transfer equipment. Otherwise, jump capable ships would scale through all the sizes through all types of spacecraft.

Transit drives (anything other than a Jump Drive) operate on fusion thrusters for all scale of spacecraft, from the huge triple nozzle WarShips , through single engine fighters, to nimble, multi-nozzle fusion powered VTOLs.

Ergo, it may be that the main reason that DropShip sizes don't scale upward smoothly to classic WarShip size is that JumpShips can only have so many Docking Collars.

Anything you build that cannot attach to a Docking Collar is NEVER going to leave that star system.

While it may be that you can build ships to any scale on the standard fusion thruster, it probably isn't the case, economically, to build any DropShip that could not be fit onto a standard Docking Collar, (or two). Thus, over the centuries, tooling and construction equipment would probably be optimized to assemble DropShips at the scale this requires. Otherwise, any specialized size over that will have to be built within it's destination system, requiring all the shipyard and support facilities that implies.

Don't misunderstand, I'm in no way advocating that dropships should get bigger. The current construction rules can't accommodate it (and I don't mean they don't allow it, I mean that if they did they'd break), and even if we had a rulesystem that could build a non jumping, warship sized ship without it coming out horribly broken, I wouldn't advocate it, because it's all kinds of pointless. Even the Behemoth isn't all that practical. It needs two docking collars, can't enter the atmosphere (a real problem when you don't have the infrastructure onsite to quickly unload it), and it does all that to carry twice the cargo of a Mammoth, which has literally none of its limitations. Two mammoths have a higher startup cost, but long term, they'll make all that up in flexibility.

The limitation on dropship size is a good thing.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #72 on: 07 October 2018, 23:21:03 »
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« Last Edit: 29 May 2019, 18:51:35 by Easy »

Maingunnery

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #73 on: 08 October 2018, 11:10:56 »
And yet the fluff says the dropship and warship engines operate on exactly the same principles. Unlike your piston engine and turbine, which don't. They're all fusion rockets that primarily function by firing an insanely fast stream of fusion byproduct out the back.
Don't forget the abstraction in BT. For BT, both Piston and Turbine engines are abstracted into ICE engines. Which is quite understandable, as they can use the same fuels, operate on the same basic principles (They're all combustion engines that primarily create rotary movement from fossil fuel combustion byproduct.), but do rely on different technologies/alloys. A factory that makes one type can't quickly switched over to producing the other.
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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #74 on: 08 October 2018, 13:38:05 »
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« Last Edit: 29 May 2019, 18:51:07 by Easy »

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #75 on: 08 October 2018, 14:05:45 »
Don't forget the abstraction in BT. For BT, both Piston and Turbine engines are abstracted into ICE engines. Which is quite understandable, as they can use the same fuels, operate on the same basic principles (They're all combustion engines that primarily create rotary movement from fossil fuel combustion byproduct.), but do rely on different technologies/alloys. A factory that makes one type can't quickly switched over to producing the other.

The abstraction is rules, not fluff. I don't know how many different ways I can say that the fluff says they operate the same way.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Maingunnery

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #76 on: 08 October 2018, 14:28:02 »
The abstraction is rules, not fluff.
The fluff doesn't go into detail, it is abstracted.
We have multiple points where there are differences, and that is to be expected as both have to meet different requirements.

Someone might be able to mount an DS engine on a WS frame, but that will have side-effects.
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Chaotic,Blues

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Re: Compact KF drives were not the hurtle the IS had with Warships?
« Reply #77 on: 12 October 2018, 02:06:57 »
Here's my theory on the subject, with two points I have noticed.

1 Both warships, and dropships use similar (but different) fusion drive technology.
2 Given what we know about capital weapons, aside from their shear mass, there is no reason a dropship couldn't use a Naval AC, or PPC.  Any ship over 50k should be able to mount these weapons without any known problems.

My theory is that dropships use Duterium based fusion drives.  Warships on the other hand use Helium 3 based drives.  What we suspect of Helium 3 based fusion, is they (might) have better power to weight rations, and require far less shielding then Duterium based. 

If everyone (out side of the wobbies, and the Com Star) assumes the drives are using the same fusion that dropships use, then the drives they create may not be able to power naval weapons effectively. 

This however, fall short when talking about naval ACs.  As I can't think of a logical reason why a large dropship can't be equipped with them as well as Capital missiles.  Also I'm assuming that fuel is just propellant, and not needed to actually run the power plant of the either craft in question.