Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion

[MarauderD]

I thought it might be nice to have a place for us to discuss both the already released volume 1 and all of the upcoming volumes of the guide over the next year. 

Both of the new Griffin variants grabbed me.  First, I like the 3N because it reminds me of the old SHD-5D in that it uses Endo and Ferro as weight savings with a standard engine.  The Case II means it is nice and durable, and the weapons mix lets it sit at range and plink away.

The Griffin C has dethroned the 6S and 6S2 as the best Griffin variant, IMO. 6/9/9 movement makes it a cavalry mech, and the clan ER PPC and Streak-10 bring weapons up to date.  I might have preferred a LRM-15, but that is the charm of the C.  It isn't perfect--it is good, but not flawless.  The IS XL engine is a vulnerability, and I like that it is there.  First, it is consistent with the C being an update of an IS mech--the 3M.  Second, a perfectly designed mech is boring.  I don't need Jagermech levels of flaws in my mechs, but absolutely perfectly designed mechs are less appealing to me, for some reason I can't put my finger on.

Cheers

What do you all think of the the new variants you're seeing?

[Colt Ward]

While the C is a update to the captured -3M & -1DS, its not a straight update to the -3M.  The -3M & -1DS both have a larger LRM rack and -3M has a back up laser but the important thing with both are the internals . . . both have IS XLs and CASE to build on.  I can honestly deal with the C using the Streak with the OOC explanation of 'we want the gun ports to match all of our released plastic minis' than the 'new toy syndrome' . . . granted the are using new-ish toys to make the design function, but its a better reason to me and can easily get behind it.

I am looking forward to what they release going forward to meet the 'gun ports' paradigm- especially if it gives us a rework of the old Twycross C mechs, just more SHS please!

[GreekFire]

The Griffin C is a refit of a refit. The older -3M and -3DS models were converted to the -4R variant, which then served as the base for the C.

As a refit of the -4R, I'm unsure how much I like it. The ERPPC gives it a headcap, sure, and it has decent range...but I really like the weapon mix of the -4R which makes it a really versatile mid-ranged skirmisher. Losing the 9-hex short range of the Snub and the two tons of ammo for the MML-5 kind of sucks, overall damage output isn't increased, and you end up with something more than 700 (!!) BV more expensive for your trouble.

[Crackerb0x]

Right, but those iJJs can routinely give you a +4 defensive mod. I personally believe that the headcap ability + extra damage from the streak LRMs + the iJJs are totally worth an extra 700 BV. Also no minimum on the Streak LRMs really improve it's ability to snipe and keep consistent hits and damage into the short range brackets. Finally, not firing the LRMs unless they hit mean your ammo is going to go further.

[GreekFire]

Right, but those iJJs can routinely give you a +4 defensive mod. I personally believe that the headcap ability + extra damage from the streak LRMs + the iJJs are totally worth an extra 700 BV. Also no minimum on the Streak LRMs really improve it's ability to snipe and keep consistent hits and damage into the short range brackets. Finally, not firing the LRMs unless they hit mean your ammo is going to go further.

The -4R already had the iJJs for the 6/9/9 speed.

Max damage output is nearly the same between both variants as well, although the C obviously has longer range for its damage output. But I was never left wishing for more range on the -4R due to its massive jump range, and like I said, losing the 9-hex short range of the Snubbie hurts. With the swap for a cERPPC, you either have to contend with more accurate ERPPC, ERLL, Gauss Rifle, etc. return fire, or else you have to hang back at medium range yourself and have less accurate firepower.

It's certainly not a bad design, I'm just definitely unconvinced that it's worth the extra 700 BV.

[Colt Ward]

The Griffin C is a refit of a refit. The older -3M and -3DS models were converted to the -4R variant, which then served as the base for the C.

As a refit of the -4R, I'm unsure how much I like it. The ERPPC gives it a headcap, sure, and it has decent range...but I really like the weapon mix of the -4R which makes it a really versatile mid-ranged skirmisher. Losing the 9-hex short range of the Snub and the two tons of ammo for the MML-5 kind of sucks, overall damage output isn't increased, and you end up with something more than 700 (!!) BV more expensive for your trouble.

Its not a refit of the -4R . . . it straight says the Wolves were converting -3M & -1DS they were capturing to the C standard.  The -3M and -1DS can still be found on the battlefield of 3150 and 'large numbers of both varians would be converted by Clan forces to their Griffin C standard.'  Last sentence of the 1st paragraph of the variant section.

I do want to know if Tristan Ximander was the guy asking to help make his KS character a war criminal.

[GreekFire]

Its not a refit of the -4R . . . it straight says the Wolves were converting -3M & -1DS they were capturing to the C standard.  The -3M and -1DS can still be found on the battlefield of 3150 and 'large numbers of both varians would be converted by Clan forces to their Griffin C standard.'  Last sentence of the 1st paragraph of the variant section.

I don't agree. Firstly, there's the quote "The model most commonly fielded by the Wolf Empire, simply known as the Griffin C, is unusual in being a refit of a refit. Built upon a common refit of older Griffins..."

With the common refit probably being the -4R, since both the -4R and the C share the same speed, engine, armor, heat sinks, and internal structure. then there's the quote you said, but you left out a word, being:

"Large numbers of both variants would eventually be converted"

Meaning the base model (the -3M or -1DS) could have been refitted into the -4R, then refitted again.

[Scotty]

I've seen discussion on Vol 1 in no fewer than six different threads, but I've seen absolutely no one talking about the most interesting thing in the entire book.

[Crackerb0x]

The -4R already had the iJJs for the 6/9/9 speed.

Max damage output is nearly the same between both variants as well, although the C obviously has longer range for its damage output. But I was never left wishing for more range on the -4R due to its massive jump range, and like I said, losing the 9-hex short range of the Snubbie hurts. With the swap for a cERPPC, you either have to contend with more accurate ERPPC, ERLL, Gauss Rifle, etc. return fire, or else you have to hang back at medium range yourself and have less accurate firepower.

It's certainly not a bad design, I'm just definitely unconvinced that it's worth the extra 700 BV.

Hrm. I don't know how I missed the iJJs being there. Derp. The weird short range of the snubbie is definitely a helper. Improving the overall range by another 8 hexes, though, I feel makes the 4N, which looks like a great brawler on paper, into a great stand-off mobile sniper, even counting the other weapon systems it has to contend with. I dunno that's worth the ~700 BV, but I think it's marginal improvement. 

[Crackerb0x]

I've seen discussion on Vol 1 in no fewer than six different threads, but I've seen absolutely no one talking about the most interesting thing in the entire book.

And which part would that be, Scotty?

[Scotty]

And which part would that be, Scotty?

It's mentioned in two places: one of the Griffin notable pilots, and the Dominator notable pilot.

It is not a piece of equipment.

[Crackerb0x]

It's mentioned in two places: one of the Griffin notable pilots, and the Dominator notable pilot.

It is not a piece of equipment.

The only common thing I'm seeing between the two is that both note an aging Clan Warrior. 100% chance I'm missing something stupid.

[Scotty]

The only common thing I'm seeing between the two is that both note an aging Clan Warrior. 100% chance I'm missing something stupid.

I'm fairly sure that willingly testing down into support castes at the end of an old Warrior's career has not been mentioned, or at the very least had not been mentioned anywhere in a major publication that I recognize off the top of my head.  Otherwise the existence of Solahma in general would be a spectacular waste of the kind the Clans are supposed to abhor.

[Weirdo]

Maybe solahma is for those who refuse to test down with dignity?

[Scotty]

Maybe solahma is for those who refuse to test down with dignity?

That would be a reasonable interpretation.  But the big implication here is that Solahma isn't the only option for old Warriors, and that's something that I've seen anywhere else.  It represents a fairly big paradigm shift for Clan society if it's a recent development.

[Colt Ward]

I'm fairly sure that willingly testing down into support castes at the end of an old Warrior's career has not been mentioned, or at the very least had not been mentioned anywhere in a major publication that I recognize off the top of my head.  Otherwise the existence of Solahma in general would be a spectacular waste of the kind the Clans are supposed to abhor.

The Sharks did have warriors that 'retired' . . . Angus Labov became a merchant before being recalled.  But the Griffin C pilot just wants to avoid joining the solahma, it does not say anything about testing out of the warrior ranks even- just reduction.

I don't agree. Firstly, there's the quote "The model most commonly fielded by the Wolf Empire, simply known as the Griffin C, is unusual in being a refit of a refit. Built upon a common refit of older Griffins..."

With the common refit probably being the -4R, since both the -4R and the C share the same speed, engine, armor, heat sinks, and internal structure. then there's the quote you said, but you left out a word, being:

"Large numbers of both variants would eventually be converted"

Meaning the base model (the -3M or -1DS) could have been refitted into the -4R, then refitted again.

Sorry, I was flipping screens and did not mean to leave out a word.

The -3M and -1DS were both factory builds and refits of the -1N and/or -1S, just like the C is a build (Keystone) and refit of the -3Ms & -1DS.  'Large numbers of both' refers to the -3M & -1DS . . . eventually just means that over time the Foxes, Crusader Wolves and maybe the Bears & Ravens, with the comments about the Dracs use of the -1DS, converted their captured -3M & -1DS in garrison clusters to the Clans' standards.  We do not have a introduction date, so 'eventually' is easily explained as 'over the 5 years' from the last TRO.

[Wolf72]

I'm fairly sure that willingly testing down into support castes at the end of an old Warrior's career has not been mentioned, or at the very least had not been mentioned anywhere in a major publication that I recognize off the top of my head.  Otherwise the existence of Solahma in general would be a spectacular waste of the kind the Clans are supposed to abhor.

Didn't Diamond Sharks do something akin to this?  Many merchants were former warriors that also were allowed to keep testing to maintain a reservist status?

Edit: Yeah, Colt has it above.

[Scotty]

The Sharks did have warriors that 'retired' . . . Angus Labov became a merchant before being recalled.  But the Griffin C pilot just wants to avoid joining the solahma, it does not say anything about testing out of the warrior ranks even- just reduction.

The Griffin pilot specifically tests back down to Technician because that's what he enjoys.  There are no Warrior Technicians in the Clans, that is literally literally what a caste system like the Clans is for.

I wasn't aware of the Sharks.  But the Griffin pilot is a Jade Falcon MechWarrior, and such a willing test down is (literally) unheard of for Falcons as far as I know.

[Wolf72]

Well obviously he is tainted! Probably feels getting shot at for a career was not as exciting as everyone put it.  Clans have been exposed to the IS long enough that some may want to not have to look to enjoying their last beer every week.

[Colt Ward]

The Griffin pilot specifically tests back down to Technician because that's what he enjoys.  There are no Warrior Technicians in the Clans, that is literally literally what a caste system like the Clans is for.

I wasn't aware of the Sharks.  But the Griffin pilot is a Jade Falcon MechWarrior, and such a willing test down is (literally) unheard of for Falcons as far as I know.

Then you are not talking about the Griffin C- instead you are talking about the Griffin 2N pilot of the Invasion era.  He was a IS freebirth who tested into a mech cockpit (Coventry?) and fought from whenever 'years' as a tech ended until the end of the Jihad.  It does not say he enjoyed being a tech, but that he just dropped in status after the Jihad.  I originally thought he was a Stoned RIF for the Falcons.

If you were the saKhan in charge of maintaining the touman, would you rather keep trueborns or freeborns when you have to shrink your mechwarrior rosters?

[TigerShark]

The Griffin pilot specifically tests back down to Technician because that's what he enjoys.  There are no Warrior Technicians in the Clans, that is literally literally what a caste system like the Clans is for.

I wasn't aware of the Sharks.  But the Griffin pilot is a Jade Falcon MechWarrior, and such a willing test down is (literally) unheard of for Falcons as far as I know.

Joanna from the Jade Falcon novels was reassigned as a canister nanny at a sibko. They also seem to pick members of the Watch from older warriors. Solahma seemed to just be a way for warriors to die in combat, if they could not do so during their careers. And assuming they still wanted to.

[Greatclub]

Could be the caste system is becoming more flexible instead of breaking down.

I like the grasshopper. It isn't the best mech, but it's a brick. I wouldn't hesitate to hand it to somebody's character in an rpg. The LRM is near-useless for fighting mechs, but there's always alternate ammo. I'm reminded of the baby mortar on the Merkava; utility, not dakka.

"OK, your ammo bin is empty. Lay out your minefield tokens."

[Scotty]

Could be the caste system is becoming more flexible instead of breaking down.

This is what it suggests to me, and why I'm baffled at everyone immediately trying to find any way to explain it other than this.

[Colt Ward]

Because its post-Jihad and all the IS Clans downsized their military to go along with Stone.  What do you do with folks you no longer want to be warriors because you have RIF'd them?  You test to see what caste they are assigned, just like when they fail out of sibkos or are crippled.

[Scotty]

The Dominator test pilot has absolutely nothing to do with post-Jihad downsizing.

[Dragon Cat]

The Ghost Bears have a retest into another warrior caste I can't remember if it works to lower castes

What i found interesting was that the Wolves are trying to ingratiate themselves to the population.  Upgrading factories, creating jobs, rebooting classic home designs, hunting down pirates, freeing slaves, trying to attract welcome back the Exiles into the fold and allowing native freeborn to join the Clan warrior caste

Its almost like they are acting more and more like a state instead of invaders that are better than

[nckestrel]

I suspect the option has always been there, the difference might be the willingness of IS-born to take that option.
That’s what we saw with CDS.
And with the notable pilot entry.
See the formation of the Clans, and SLDF “warriors” being assigned to other castes as needed.
We see solahma as “the worst”.  Clan warriors see it as maintaining their honor. See how Johanna sees being “demoted” to trainer. She would rather fight as an old warrior than not fight even with staying as a warrior. If you can only gain honor in battle, solahma is a better option than not being a warrior.
It’s not the option that is new, it’s the attitude towards that option.

[Scotty]

Clan Warrior society collectively rediscovering the concept of social mobility is incredibly interesting and important on the eve of the book called ilClan.  That was why I brought it up in the first place.

[Adrian Gideon]

Good stuff. Good stuff.

[Sartris]

Clan Warrior society collectively rediscovering the concept of social mobility is incredibly interesting and important on the eve of the book called ilClan.  That was why I brought it up in the first place.

not only that social mobility exists, but signs of a fundamental shift in what constitutes "good" social mobility throughout various levels of the pyramid. before the only acceptable ambition was up. the inner sphere surats are taking their toll  ;D