Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion

[five_corparty]

100% love this TRO(lite.. thing, whatever. :-)

Took the commando, the IS griffen, the mixed Loki and grasshopper into a brawl with the boys this weekend.  LOVE them!  The griffen did the best- it's like the 3025 griffen but PERFECT: for just skirmishing with a couple of hatamotos, it did great, just popping up and down a ridge line.  The commando was doing well- love the weapon mix- but it caught a gauss into the LT and that was the end of him.

The Hopper took an OBSCENE amount of damage, but its throw weight was light.  It was a BAD battle for it, I think in other situations it'll be a MONSTER.

The Mixed Loki, the uvber Glass cannon, had a rough night.  I was rolling cold, but when I connected?  My son gasped- "HOW MUCH DAMAGE?"
"16.  okay, now take 22 to the CT."
OHMYGOD DAD, THIS BANSHEE HAD NO DAMAGE!

Well, he's gonna learn tonight!  ;) ;D

Overall, I personally think it's a great book, love what I'm seeing. 

[MyndkryM]

Clan Warrior society collectively rediscovering the concept of social mobility is incredibly interesting and important on the eve of the book called ilClan.  That was why I brought it up in the first place.

Also interesting is that both examples are Wolf Empire. Transitioning from a Clan to an Empire and doing things in a "new way".

Nice find and good read.

[SteveRestless]

The Wolves have always been on the permissive/flexible/well-treated side as pertains to the Non-Warrior castes. All the way back to our beef with the Widowmakers boiling over, based on their treatment of Lower Caste workers.

[GreekFire]

Something that I personally found interesting was that the Goliath C entry seems to suggest that it was Corean engineers who designed the 'Mech, giving them a certain liberty in operating that I don't think has been seen beyond the Rasalhague Dominion before now. Of course, this could be because of a severe lack of non-military Wolves, but still.

[wolfspider]

Any word on when the mechs in the new Recognition Guides will be added to the Master Unit List? I would love to give them a go in Alpha Strike.

[Dragon Cat]

Clan Warrior society collectively rediscovering the concept of social mobility is incredibly interesting and important on the eve of the book called ilClan.  That was why I brought it up in the first place.

It sounds very similar to ideals and practices adopted by the Not Named quiaff?  :D that'd be a twist Kerensky's own Clan following their practices...

[Valkerie]

I'm fairly sure that willingly testing down into support castes at the end of an old Warrior's career has not been mentioned, or at the very least had not been mentioned anywhere in a major publication that I recognize off the top of my head.  Otherwise the existence of Solahma in general would be a spectacular waste of the kind the Clans are supposed to abhor.

Little late here.  I noticed that, but not being very well read on Clan society, I had no idea if it was thing or not prior to this.  It makes far more sense for a society based on not wasting things to do this, rather than just throw people out with the proverbial garbage.

[nckestrel]

The Clans don’t see battle itself, or a warrior dying in it as a waste.  A waste is a warrior not going in to battle. 
Solahma units are not a waste. It’s cutting costs. Think of a sports team. You want to clear off aging past their players. You need to clear cap space and/or payroll costs in order to have space/playing time for the young, new stars.  But you don’t mind getting one more championship out of them.
Solahma units are that veteran team that might have one more championship in them before you dismantle them for good. And they would rather go down trying than retire quietly.

[Wrangler]

Clan society is to change.  Supposedly the Clans we know it will be changed in hundred years.  We will see.

RG is beginning of it.

[Jellico]

Not having read the book...

What is a "support caste"?

Warriors have been retiring to training roles for years. Sea Fox merchant factors spring to mind. Military service is a requirement for a civilian politician in the Rasalhauge Republic.

The main odd thing here is "willingly". If you can win a Trial by combat you have inherently proven your fitness for combat. To willingly test down basically means throwing the Trial.

That implies a warrior willing to give up a combat position while still being the most qualified to fill that position.

There is a disturbing amount of free will being shown here. It is one thing to retire (rather than death by glory) when you are no longer qualified. It is another when you are still combat capable.

[Frabby]

Testing down into a non-warrior caste does indeed put a huge question mark behind the entire concept of solahma. Testing back up into warrior status was previously unheard of. Social mobility was named as a main reason for why the Wolverines drew Nicholas' wrath and got killed with fire.
The really interesting question is what happens to your bloodname if you have one and then voluntarily retire in this way?

[Scotty]

Not having read the book...

What is a "support caste"?

In the case of the Clans in question, anything other than Warrior.  Diamond Shark/Sea Fox there's a reasonable claim to be made that there is no practicable difference between Merchant and Warrior after a certain rank.

Warriors have been retiring to training roles for years. Sea Fox merchant factors spring to mind. Military service is a requirement for a civilian politician in the Rasalhauge Republic.

Training roles are still technically Warrior caste.  Rasalhague is absolutely a special case by virtue of having civilian politicians at all, and arguably they're not a part of the Clan caste system as practiced by the rest of the Clans in the first place.

The main odd thing here is "willingly". If you can win a Trial by combat you have inherently proven your fitness for combat. To willingly test down basically means throwing the Trial.

That implies a warrior willing to give up a combat position while still being the most qualified to fill that position.

Or it demonstrates that Warriors are trusted to make decisions on where their best service to the Clans can be performed.  This is a radical concept for the Clans and is entirely why I think that it's the most interesting thing in the entire Recognition Guide, bar none.

[Colt Ward]

Testing down into a non-warrior caste does indeed put a huge question mark behind the entire concept of solahma. Testing back up into warrior status was previously unheard of. Social mobility was named as a main reason for why the Wolverines drew Nicholas' wrath and got killed with fire.
The really interesting question is what happens to your bloodname if you have one and then voluntarily retire in this way?

No, it happened quite a bit- Vlad tested washouts to be replacements, the merchants mentioned, the Cobra's reserve roster, and more

 . . . 'testing down' would just be you are getting kicked out of the warriors, what are you good at?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

So I got the book and I read it, but quite honestly I wish that any other name besides "Dominator" had been chosen for that mech.

It just sounds too much like a villain form an 80s cartoon who raided Rob Halford's closet for his costume.

[Karasu]

The discussions about the route map to the Griffin C made me think that a 'family tree' of sorts for the chasses with the most variants might be an interesting project.  The Marauder may be a bit complicted, but maybe something like the Wasp would be a good starting point.

[Jellico]

Or it demonstrates that Warriors are trusted to make decisions on where their best service to the Clans can be performed.  This is a radical concept for the Clans and is entirely why I think that it's the most interesting thing in the entire Recognition Guide, bar none.

The Wolves showed Smoke Jaguar levels of foresight and planning with their Empire excursion. They are now a shockingly tiny minority over a nominally hostile population. They have already sold their souls, opening the Touman to anyone with a pulse, to get the numbers to survive. This is an extension of that logic.

[hf22]

The Wolves showed Smoke Jaguar levels of foresight and planning with their Empire excursion. They are now a shockingly tiny minority over a nominally hostile population. They have already sold their souls, opening the Touman to anyone with a pulse, to get the numbers to survive. This is an extension of that logic.

To pull on the type of quasi-historical inspiration Battletech does a bit, the Wolves might even be a good case to do a Sparta vs Rome like imperial drama over the extension of warrior caste membership (Sparta refused to expand its citizenship and so was overwhelmed by its imperial achievements, versus Rome who was much better at integrating local elites into its body of citizens, as the old textbook lessons went).

[Centurion03]

The Wolves showed Smoke Jaguar levels of foresight and planning with their Empire excursion. They are now a shockingly tiny minority over a nominally hostile population. They have already sold their souls, opening the Touman to anyone with a pulse, to get the numbers to survive. This is an extension of that logic.

I suspect Alaric Ward (-Steiner-Davion) being as outside-the-norms of a Clan Warrior as you can get having a big impact on the way the Wolves operate.

Everyone loves a winner, and as long as Alaric Ward keeps winning, the Wolves will let him keep doing what he's doing. 

If the Touman actually remains this open to outsiders once the Sibko graduates start increasing is another matter. 

[Natasha Kerensky]

The Wolves showed Smoke Jaguar levels of foresight and planning with their Empire excursion.

Not really.  It was a calculated move that removed the Wolves from a situation where they were surrounded by three strong Clan militaries and had little domestic military production of their own to one where they faced one or two weak and divided Spheroid militaries and access to multiple military factories.

And they’ve parlayed that position into a shot at the ilClan/Terra.

They are now a shockingly tiny minority over a nominally hostile population. They have already sold their souls, opening the Touman to anyone with a pulse, to get the numbers to survive. This is an extension of that logic.

Clans have always readily incorporated foreign elements into their societies and toumans.  That’s the whole point of trials of possession, trials of absorption, bondsmen, etc.  The Wolves are not “selling their souls”.  They’re just doing what Clans do.

[Weirdo]

So I got the book and I read it, but quite honestly I wish that any other name besides "Dominator" had been chosen for that mech.

It just sounds too much like a villain form an 80s cartoon who raided Rob Halford's closet for his costume.

Sounds very Clanlike, then. :)

Look at it this way: They could have named it the Wolf Dominator or the DominateHawk...

[MadCapellan]

Battletech is the future of the eighties, after all, & the Clans were villains in the cartoon, so.....

[Stormy]

Now we just need one painted all in black with plenty of silver spikes...

...maybe some denim blue around the join of torso and hips?

 >:D

[Weirdo]

Now we just need one painted all in black with plenty of silver spikes...

...maybe some denim blue around the join of torso and hips?

 >:D

I might steal this scheme. I've got an older Executioner mini I've been considering doing as a Solaris fighter since I'll be replacing it in my Falcon lineup with the Kickstarter beaut. Now you've inspired me to paint it as a cheesy villain, and fluff the pilot as always playing the heel both in and out of the arenas. >:D

[Atlas3060]

I might steal this scheme. I've got an older Executioner mini I've been considering doing as a Solaris fighter since I'll be replacing it in my Falcon lineup with the Kickstarter beaut. Now you've inspired me to paint it as a cheesy villain, and fluff the pilot as always playing the heel both in and out of the arenas. >:D

I'm down for that, make a Sasquatch with a gaudy "hero" design with the shield bearing some faction logo like it's Captain Ameria sent there to take them down.

Think of the ticket sales for the arenas!  :rockon:

[Weirdo]

That's right folks, the match you've been waiting for! Will evil's rule over the Class 4 Circuit be complete, or will the forces of light be triumphant? Find out this weekend, as Leftenant Liberty tries to end the five-match streak of... Tooth and Khansequences! Sunday, Sunday, Sunday!!!

[Geg]

Because its post-Jihad and all the IS Clans downsized their military to go along with Stone.  What do you do with folks you no longer want to be warriors because you have RIF'd them?  You test to see what caste they are assigned, just like when they fail out of sibkos or are crippled.

Where is this actually written?  I don't doubt it, but I don't think I have ever read it, only heard it.

[MarauderD]

Where is this actually written?  I don't doubt it, but I don't think I have ever read it, only heard it.

I agree its confusing re: the Clans.  Take Clan Jade Falcon and Wolf.  They both invaded with what, 5 galaxies of front line troops?  What are they even at now?  20+ galaxies?  How do you reconcile a willingness to reduce forces for Stone and yet both have been able to create new forces at such a rate?  I'm a little baffled at that, but realize some handwavium may be at work here.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Sounds very Clanlike, then. :)

Look at it this way: They could have named it the Wolf Dominator or the DominateHawk...

Battletech is the future of the eighties, after all, & the Clans were villains in the cartoon, so.....

I certainly cannot dispute either of these statements.  :thumbsup:

[nckestrel]

I agree its confusing re: the Clans.  Take Clan Jade Falcon and Wolf.  They both invaded with what, 5 galaxies of front line troops?  What are they even at now?  20+ galaxies?  How do you reconcile a willingness to reduce forces for Stone and yet both have been able to create new forces at such a rate?  I'm a little baffled at that, but realize some handwavium may be at work here.

FM3145 lists 14 galaxies for Wolf?
5 galaxies in 3050 with a 1% growth rate each year gives you 14 galaxies in the 3150s
A 2% growth rate hits 14 in 3100.
I don’t think those kinds of rates require handwavium.

[SteveRestless]

Also to note, the invading forces were not the whole of the clan.