UrbanMech Theory

[Mendrugo]

Many have questioned the design philosophy behind the UrbanMech - a light 'Mech with the speed of an Annihilator.  Useless on raids or in open field battles, it has been described as well suited for dense urban combat, because it can use its jump jets to reposition itself to adjacent streets.  Even in those circumstances, though, they aren't great.

However, I have an alternate theory.

The Mobile Long Tom entry in TRO:3025 says that it was developed as part of the Star League's "Main Guardian Defense System," which consisted of fortifications and mobile artillery intended to defend cities.  Looking at the stats for the Mobile Long Tom, they have exactly the same movement profile as the UrbanMech.  Coincidence?

Theory: The UrbanMech was also designed as a component of the Main Guardian Defense System, intended as dedicated escorts for the Mobile Long Toms.  Their speed would let them keep pace with their charge, and prevent them from succumbing to the temptation to rush off into battle. 

Looking at the Main Guardian concept itself, it seems odd that the Star League would invest in fortifying its cities, given the overwhelming might of the SLDF and the lack of any major foe that would be likely to besiege a major urban center. 

Thus, the Main Guardian infrastructure was probably intended for border worlds that were threatened by pirate attacks.  The Urbie debuted in 2675, during the Golden Years of the League.  Perhaps the League rolled out the Urbie and Main Guardian to protect facilities in areas where there was still ongoing banditry, and then expanded it massively once the Third Hidden War began, when false-flagged House forces began launching heavy raids against their neighbors to gain commercial advantage or retaliate for earlier raids. 

As one of the more paranoid Great Houses, even during the Star League, the Capellan Confederation would be one of the most likely to invest heavily in Main Guardian infrastructure.  It might not be a coincidence that cities like Tikograd were heavily fortified, that the Confederation's military doctrine was, for much of the Succession Wars, focused on massed artillery formations, and that the UrbanMech is more common in the Capellan Confederation than in any other Successor State. 

Your thoughts?

[Jellico]

The Urbanmech, like the Panther and Valkyrie is an exercise in mounting the largest weapon type possible on the smallest chassis.

[Daryk]

If they had gone with a 3/5/3 chassis, I could buy that...

[Orin J.]

Many have questioned the design philosophy behind the UrbanMech -

citation needed. it's a highly mobile turret with a gun potentially able to breach the cockpit and disable any 'mech.

and it's cheap. the philosophy always seemed solid to me. I don't treat it like a mobile asset, I treat it like a defensive emplacement that happens to be self-relocating when the situation calls for it.

[Major Headcase]

As for the Urbanmech's origins, it doesn't need to be some greater design philosophy. There are lots of niche style Battlemechs already, machines designed for a specific role that perform poorly when forced into a "general combat" role exemplified by the typical image of the does-everything-exceptionally-well Battlemech. Rifleman. Jagermech. Ostscout. Spider. Etcetera... The Urbbie is just another of these. Someone in SLDF Civil Defence Planning said "I like turrets, but what if the enemy comes from over there instead of over here??" And in an age were they make a Mech to solve every problem; "POOF!", the Urbbie was born.
As for the SLDF fortifying cities: while the SLDF was large and powerful, the Amaris war and the Succession Wars show how important fortified cities are when orbital bombardment is off the table. Like most powerful subjugators, the Star League planned for all military eventualities. IF a civil war in the SL happened, it would mean a majority of the member nations would be in revolt, because the House Lords were too gutless to stand up to Terra unless they felt certain of the possibility of victory. This would mean portions of the SLDF would become potential enemies, and the only forces they could TRULY trust in that eventuality would be units from the TH. This would reduce the SLDF's fighting strength and chain of supply, making "loyalist" territory extremely important to protect.
Rome made the same provisions for self defenses as the reliance on legions from the provinces grew.

[Mendrugo]

citation needed.

BattleCorps MilTech UrbanMech IIC 2: "As derided as the ’Mech is in the Inner Sphere, the UrbanMech fares little better in the Clans."

Technical Readout: Succession Wars: "During the Succession Wars the ’Mech was considered more of a liability than an asset. The Great Houses relegated the humble UrbanMech to garrison duty or stripped it for parts."

TRO: 3039: "Critics often note that, one way or another, an UrbanMech is good for about two minutes of combat."

Operation Excalibur: "The UrbanMech, a 30-tonner armed only with a small laser an an autocannon, thoroughly outclassed, outmatched, and outgunned, went down in a shrill clattering of parts, a severed leg, a fragmenting sheet of plate steel."

Tactics of Duty: "It was an UrbanMech, squat and ugly, looking more like some monstrous, round-topped kitchen appliance on legs than a BattleMech.  UrbanMechs massed only thirty tons, but they were slow for their size and difficult to maneuver.  In 'Mech-to-'Mech combat, most MechWarriors thought of them as dead meat - easy kills."

TRO: 3050 (Upgrade): "Created to defend the cities of the Star League, the Successor States reserved the humble UrbanMech for garrison duty."  (This text, more than any other, suggests a link between the Urbie and the Main Guardian Defense System.)

TRO: 3025:  "UrbanMechs were, in fact, among the last defenders of the Star League, fighting for control of vital urban centers as civil authority collapsed around them. Many were destroyed in the carnage, which is why the 'Mech is rarely seen outside Liao space. In the present era, House Liao maintains a relatively large number of UrbanMechs, deploying them in the fortified cities along its frontiers, where they have encountered both Davion and Marik forces."

TRO: 3025: "The Armstrong mobile Long Tom rifle variant is the last remnant of the Star League's main guardian defense system.  Key cities on garrisoned worlds usually possess this system."

Red Khopesh: "UrbanMechs didn't always get a lot of respect from the pilots of larger machines"

[SteelRaven]

The Urbie makes allot more sense once you look for the next cheapest AC/10 and AC/20 platforms.

The Rommel and Patton tanks are actually more expensive than the Urbenmech and the Urbies jump jets can help it get to firing positions the difficult or impossible for Battletanks. Urbanmechs also require one Mechwarrior to pilot vs a tank crew of 3 Tankers.

I do like the logic as the Urbies only exist to be a walking gun turret but even in the fluff text, other mechs can do the same job better. Maybe the Urbie was a stop gap before another mech took it's place and simply stay in existence thanks to it's affordable nature. Then again, the SLDF kept the Mackie in service until Kerensky packed his bags and left .

[Daryk]

Rommel/Patton tanks need 5 crew...

[MarauderCH IIC]

Rommel/Patton tanks need 5 crew...

What is the cost difference between training a MechWarrior and five tankers?

[Failure16]

You know, I'm not sure off-hand, but there is a lot more to force maintenance/upkeep than simply training costs.

I like Mendrugo's original contention of the UM being a component part of a specific doctrine.  It is not something I ever considered myself. It makes more sense than it simply being 'another BattleMech'.

Personally, I prefer to use UMs in an assault gun role supporting infantry or combat engineers (though I wish it had proper arms and hand actuators, natch). Even then I feel it could use that next increment of speed (I got you, Daryk), but at least it works. Elsewhere, the speed makes it nonviable as part of a front-line or even second- or third-line BattleMech formation. Put another way, when the logistical tail routinely outpaces you (or it is more convenient and faster to park your 'Mech on a Dragon Wagon), it's time to hang up your spurs and kick it with the sleepy looking guys in ranks.

The jump jets don't really help it either, even in a city. They don't hurt enough that I'd rather have a medium laser instead, but there were an awful lot of buildings in the original CityTech counter mix that were taller than L1 and -2. And the ones that were not were as apt as not to collapse under a thirty-tonne load limit, which led to interesting things when it came to rolling on the basements table.

But, you know, a lot of people laugh at UrbanMechs if they are in a BattleMech of similar mass or greater. Until they face one on Solaris VII using the original Dueling Rules in a Class 1 or even 2 fight. Then everyone else is laughing. A medium-heavy autocannon, six tonnes of armor, and the extra heat sink is no joke when living and dying in one-quarter time. Because everyone gets to the killing floor at the same time, and the victor gets to strut out as fast or slow as they want to.

[SteelRaven]

Rommel/Patton tanks need 5 crew...

Alright, my apologies. I don't play vehicles so I was going off Sarna.

(that said, I hate the was BT determines number of crew per vehicle)   

[Two Guns Blazing]

I guess the "real world" factors of making something cheap to suit a specific purpose, providing one element amongst many elements for city defence, was what made it attractive...especially when you consider training and maintenance on top of initial purchase cost of the unit.

Dropping the small laser, the jump jets and 1/2 ton of armour and using that 2 ton to make a total of 3 ton of ammo for the AC10 would be preferable for the Mech to fill a role where in a city (not a small town or low level settlement, but a city with a large area consisting of tall buildings), it could co-ordinate with other Urbanmechs to create a grid of interlocking arcs of fire down clear fire lines (the streets), but do so on an armoured platform that could retreat or advance at will (no need to set-up or pull-down a weapons system to move), is a cool idea. For urban areas with lower building heights, you could give it back the jump jets and have 2 ton of ammo, instead, if you wanted to.

Moving at ~30km/h is not a bad speed as a component of a larger formation maintaining a grid of interlocking arcs, when you have to withdraw or advance only one block at a time before taking up a firing position so another Mech in the grid can then move...if you are forced into a full blown retreat though, it's certainly not an ideal top speed...

[Frabby]

It's a nice theory but I feel it is countered by the fact that the UrbanMech was created a whooping 73 years after the LT-MOB-25. If it was designed with the Guardian city defense in mind then it was a very late afterthought...

[Mendrugo]

My thought on that is that the LT-MOB-25 was created due to the SLDF's experiences on the Taurian front in the Reunification War - when assaulting Taurian fortresses, it would be difficult to deploy fixed artillery for a siege, due to the heavy counterbattery fire from the elevated and hardened Taurian positions.  The solution was the self-propelled Long Tom. 

The mobile Long Tom could have been incorporated into the Main Guardian infrastructure decades later, once it became apparent that the SLDF wasn't going to be laying siege to fortresses again in the foreseeable future.

[Daryk]

What is the cost difference between training a MechWarrior and five tankers?

The salary difference is 1,500/month for the MechWarrior vs. 4,500/month for 5 vehicle crew (Campaign Operations, page 25 refers).

[Greywind]

TRO: 3039: "Critics often note that, one way or another, an UrbanMech is good for about two minutes of combat."

The average battle is less than 2 minutes. Most fights don't go over 12 rounds.

[Mendrugo]

The average battle is less than 2 minutes. Most fights don't go over 12 rounds.

The game mechanics dictate that.  In the fiction, there are accounts of ‘Mechs hammering at each other for hours in running battles.  That’s the standard the Urbie’s being measured against in 3039.

[Elmoth]

I think the time frames would be better if the map scale was shifted up by 10 or so, and the same with the time frames. it would make for longer battles fiction-wise.

I like the urbie as a mobile turret. I dislike it as a mech, but as a terrain feature it is cozy. I think ti would look great it if was a quad able to go hull down.

The theory of the Urbie as an escort for the long tom looks really nice, except that he is not much of a deterrent, so I don't know if it is worth it as an escort....

[massey]

Urbanmechs should probably be used as an infantry support mech.  They provide extra firepower and some hole-punching ability to basic platoons of grunts on foot.  The fact that they don't move fast doesn't matter, because neither do the infantry that they're supporting.  They're really just a big mobile field gun.

I see Urbanmechs similarly to the Wasp, Stinger, and Locust.  They are good enough at their specialist role to be useful, while being cheap enough to spam them.  Imagine having 1 Urbanmech for every battalion of foot infantry (9 platoons) or even 1 for every company (3 platoons).  That's going to make it much harder to take a city.

They are supposed to take advantage of hidden unit rules (ambushing an attacker so they don't get a TMM), and their jump jets let them break LOS afterwards.  A 2 hex jump isn't much, but if you win initiative, it's probably enough to let you move around a corner.  With their 6 tons of armor and AC-10, they're like a cheaper version of the Panther.  Yes, the Urbanmech is slower than the Panther, but in city terrain where you have to make lots of turns and roads require a piloting skill check when you run, they aren't that much slower.  Most mechs have "wasted" movement, where you'll have to make a piloting skill roll if you move forward that extra hex.  The Urbanmech simply accepts that it's only ever going to plod forward.  Plus the AC doesn't have a minimum range.

You can also use them for invading cities.  If somebody hits you with a hidden unit (using your own tactics against you), then an Urbie is a lot more survivable than other light mechs.  And if the hidden unit is something big (like an SRM carrier or something with an AC-20), then all you lost was an Urbanmech.

[Greywind]

The game mechanics dictate that.  In the fiction, there are accounts of ‘Mechs hammering at each other for hours in running battles.  That’s the standard the Urbie’s being measured against in 3039.

*shrug* Mechanics trumps fiction.

[Ruger]

The average battle is less than 2 minutes. Most fights don't go over 12 rounds.

I would dispute that in my experience.

I once had a lance on lance battle in which my force of mostly intro tech ‘Mechs (I think three 55 tonners including a Dervish, and one Hitman) took on an equal bv force of more advanced tech ‘Mechs.

My Dervish didn’t get rendered combat ineffective until round 22.

And we still had the rest of our lance with assorted battle damage, IIRC.

I’ve had other fights last longer. And shorter length battles too, of course.

Ruger

[SteelRaven]

If you want a more optimized machine, pick anything other than a Urbie.

I like the idea of the Urbie only because you have bad designs in the real world but our community has a weird tendency to worship mechs that are little more than memes.

[Marveryn]

It's a nice theory but I feel it is countered by the fact that the UrbanMech was created a whooping 73 years after the LT-MOB-25. If it was designed with the Guardian city defense in mind then it was a very late afterthought...

Yes but that many years is enough to see problem with the guarding and try to correct it.  We don't know what the rest of the system call for.  but perhaps whatever was prior they decided it woudlnt hurt to add some urbies.  At least the two may compliment each other and may had been initial part of the system but were added as time went on

[Agathos]

Urbanmechs should probably be used as an infantry support mech.  They provide extra firepower and some hole-punching ability to basic platoons of grunts on foot.  The fact that they don't move fast doesn't matter, because neither do the infantry that they're supporting.  They're really just a big mobile field gun.

Or I could invest in the real thing. If I'm looking at a motorized AC/10 field gun platoon from TacOps, the Urbie seems to suffer in comparison. I get two guns per platoon, I'm harder to kill with anti-'Mech weapons, I can't jump but I also can't skid, and I can move into and through buildings. (And I can drag the guns up the stairs for better sightlines -- don't ask). I guess the Urbie fits that niche where I think the enemy is bringing a lot of flamers and machine guns, or where I happen to have a MechWarrior standing by but I don't have time to draft and train an infantry platoon.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I guess the "real world" factors of making something cheap to suit a specific purpose, providing one element amongst many elements for city defence, was what made it attractive...especially when you consider training and maintenance on top of initial purchase cost of the unit.

Dropping the small laser, the jump jets and 1/2 ton of armour and using that 2 ton to make a total of 3 ton of ammo for the AC10 would be preferable for the Mech to fill a role where in a city (not a small town or low level settlement, but a city with a large area consisting of tall buildings), it could co-ordinate with other Urbanmechs to create a grid of interlocking arcs of fire down clear fire lines (the streets), but do so on an armoured platform that could retreat or advance at will (no need to set-up or pull-down a weapons system to move), is a cool idea. For urban areas with lower building heights, you could give it back the jump jets and have 2 ton of ammo, instead, if you wanted to.

Moving at ~30km/h is not a bad speed as a component of a larger formation maintaining a grid of interlocking arcs, when you have to withdraw or advance only one block at a time before taking up a firing position so another Mech in the grid can then move...if you are forced into a full blown retreat though, it's certainly not an ideal top speed...

Jump jets are a pretty big asset in a city.  Stripping them doesn’t make it a better mech.

[massey]

Or I could invest in the real thing. If I'm looking at a motorized AC/10 field gun platoon from TacOps, the Urbie seems to suffer in comparison. I get two guns per platoon, I'm harder to kill with anti-'Mech weapons, I can't jump but I also can't skid, and I can move into and through buildings. (And I can drag the guns up the stairs for better sightlines -- don't ask). I guess the Urbie fits that niche where I think the enemy is bringing a lot of flamers and machine guns, or where I happen to have a MechWarrior standing by but I don't have time to draft and train an infantry platoon.

But that wasn't a legal option until pretty late in the game.  Even though it's been retconned as being available earlier, I think you have to keep in mind what actually existed when they created the mech.

Besides, the real question isn't "what would a certain specific player do?"  It's "what would the Star League do?"

[Kit deSummersville]

Most fights don't go over 12 rounds.

Sure, then the judges make the decision who the winner is.

[Wolf72]

The game mechanics dictate that.  In the fiction, there are accounts of ‘Mechs hammering at each other for hours in running battles.  That’s the standard the Urbie’s being measured against in 3039.

I think those hours long battles are due to mechwarriors taking one, maybe two pot shots at opponents then disengaging and reengaging.  Not your stand and deliver the goods slugfest many tend to think of.

[Mendrugo]

Besides, the real question isn't "what would a certain specific player do?"  It's "what would the Star League do?"

Strap jump jets to a tank?

[massey]

Strap jump jets to a tank?

Now there's an idea!

[Daryk]

*shrug* Mechanics trumps fiction.

All it takes is rolling map boards...  ^-^

[carlisimo]

I like that theory a lot.  I'd like to think that there is an in-universe explanation, because all you'd have to do to make it a 3/5/3 is drop the pointless extra heat sink and find a ton elsewhere (the small laser and/or armor).  Or you might accept a 3/5/2 and give up a little less.

[Daryk]

Or, you know... maybe put in TWO Large Lasers (or a BLAZER CANNON!  :D), a few HS, and kick it up to 3/5/3...

[truetanker]

Neat theory...

One problem,  I've seen Urbies take out an OpFor of faster mechs before. Nothing special, just that an AC20 is scary enough to force either a Moral roll or PSR, which ever is needed. Same thing when non-Anti-Mech troopers meet one... there's a reason why most soldiers wear brown pants!  ;D

TT

[glitterboy2098]

the advantages a mech has over a tank or infantry field gun is largely in terms of height and cross-terrain mobility.. being two levels tall an urbanmech can see over small buildings that would otherwise block line of sight for a tank or fieldgun, and in doing so it also can benefit from partial cover making it harder to kill while it fires. a tank or field gun with LOS is going to be exposed for the most part. (the exception being field gun platoons stationed inside a building.. but that take a lot of time to set up
a mech also benefits from being able to more easily pass through terrain.. a mech passing through rubble/rough ground, woods, or waterways is just slowed down a little. but for a vehicle those could all stop them entirely, depending on type of vehicle. and would hinder or stop infantry field guns as well.

a mech has an advantage over field guns too in that it can fire while moving.. something that field guns cannot due to the need to set up guns for firing, and break them down for transport. (a vehicle can fire on the move, but then we get back to the "can;t cross terrain as easily" issue)

if combat makes its way into the city, having mechs on hand to provide heavy mobile and tall firepower to the vehicles and infantry is useful. but few nations will want to devote important resources to a medium, heavy, or assault class urban specialist mech. so fitting as much of that firepower and armor onto a light mech makes sense in that regard.

[Mendrugo]

That’s exactly the idea - the kind of ‘Mech most likely to try to overrun a Mobile Long Tom would be a fast striker unit - and the AC/10s on the Urbies are sufficient to take those apart as they try to breach the defensive perimeter around the LT-MOB-25.  I can see anywhere from a lance to a company of Urbies assigned to each Long Tom during the League’s height.

[Two Guns Blazing]

Jump jets are a pretty big asset in a city.  Stripping them doesn’t make it a better mech.

where in a city (not a small town or low level settlement, but a city with a large area consisting of tall buildings),

I feel it does make the Mech better by dropping the jump jets in the situation I specified...in a city consisting of tall buildings, and by that I was suggesting buildings the height of which the Urbanmechs jump of 2 wouldn't be able to jump onto or over...and although that doesn't make the jump jets 100% useless, it certainly lessens their effectiveness, and in this case, I'd prefer to be carrying the extra ton of ammo...I then go on to say that if you are operating in smaller towns, you could re-equip the jump jets if desired, because they would be more useful where the buildings are shorter...

[Arkansas Warrior]

No city is made up entirely of skyscrapers*.  And even if they were, there might well be other obstacles-tall medians in divided roads, ditches or canals too wide to step over, etc. that jump jets would still be useful with.  They also allow you to jump behind an enemy that closes; something the UrbanMech couldn't otherwise do, with it's low speed.  Likewise, jets allow you to move two hexes *and* change direction to face however you like.  Pretty useful if an Axeman runs up behind you.  Even if most of the buildings are too tall to jump over in a single bound, jump jets still provide much-needed maneuverability for something as slow as an UrbanMech.




*Ok, maybe some sci-fi city that's one huge arcology could count as a single tall building, but it might be big enough for mechs to run around *inside* it.

[LastChanceCav]

My theory is the first generation of mechs were designed to match the art of someone else. When the original 3025 came along the designs came first, testing the limits of the design rules [cough]Charger[/cough]. The fluff came after and ever since then the writers have been trying to make a universe work around it.

Cheers,
LCC

[Greywind]

I would dispute that in my experience.

I once had a lance on lance battle in which my force of mostly intro tech ‘Mechs (I think three 55 tonners including a Dervish, and one Hitman) took on an equal bv force of more advanced tech ‘Mechs.

My Dervish didn’t get rendered combat ineffective until round 22.

And we still had the rest of our lance with assorted battle damage, IIRC.

I’ve had other fights last longer. And shorter length battles too, of course.

Ruger

So you have some outliers. How does that invalidate what I said about "average"? There's a reason the ammo bins tend to be stacked around 10-12 shots.

[Ruger]

So you have some outliers. How does that invalidate what I said about "average"? There's a reason the ammo bins tend to be stacked around 10-12 shots.

That was just one example. Most of the battles I’ve been in have taken 15 to 20 rounds, unless someone gets in a lucky crit.

Edit: of course, the groups I’ve been in have not played with things like targeting computers, or many XL engines, or with Clan tech, so that could bias the results.

Ruger

[Daryk]

That very much biases the results... for the exact reasons I prefer not to play with those particular innovations...

[glitterboy2098]

That’s exactly the idea - the kind of ‘Mech most likely to try to overrun a Mobile Long Tom would be a fast striker unit - and the AC/10s on the Urbies are sufficient to take those apart as they try to breach the defensive perimeter around the LT-MOB-25.  I can see anywhere from a lance to a company of Urbies assigned to each Long Tom during the League’s height.

except that a mobile long-tom is generally not going to be inside a city where the Urbanmech actually fights best. it will, at best, be located on the outskirts of town, not even in the suburbs. much less the city center. more likely several miles outside of the city limits, where it can fire at anything that is approaching the city in support of mobile units like tanks and medium and heavy mechs that are attempting to block the approachs to the city.

[Mendrugo]

There are battle history reports that show the Long Tom set up in a city square being used to hammer enemy positions at the edge of its range (such as the artillery duel between the rival-held cities of Garth and Tromoth).

Not much detail is given on what the main guardian system entailed, but it appears to have involved eschewing fixed artillery emplacements in favor of mobile artillery (either tracked or rail mounted) that could be positioned to hit enemies approaching from any direction. 

I agree that you aren’t going to want to set this up in the middle of the skyscraper district, but the urban hex maps show squares and parks with enough room for it to maneuver.  Then plonk some Urbies around it and, voila, main guardian.  I’d imagine the Long Tom was chosen because it has the range to hit enemies at the outskirts from the city interior, whereas snipers and thumpers would have to do a lot more moving to get in range, and have to set up much closer to the front, increasing their risk of being overrun.

[SteelRaven]

What bugs me about that idea is that the LT-MOB-25 Mobile Long Tom is huge, not only placing it in the city is going to make the city a target but getting the vehicle into positions in the city will be a pain. It was not a vehicle built to navigate city streets with ease. Great idea for a objective in a city fight though.


 

[Wolf72]

... getting the vehicle into positions in the city will be a pain. It was not a vehicle built to navigate city streets with ease. Great idea for a objective in a city fight though.

On our next episode of Modern Marvels, watch as the Star League Engineer Corp positions its newest urban defense platform in the middle of the park district.

[truetanker]

Why not?

I've had a few on Tabletop city fights and the area really a bit more mobile than you think. There's so many ways to fire from it's a joke. Now stowing and bugging out, I really recommend flank speed in a city and cut down the nearest side street. But for the most part, it's up and out, downtown.

TT

[SteelRaven]

Why not?

I've had a few on Tabletop city fights and the area really a bit more mobile than you think. There's so many ways to fire from it's a joke. Now stowing and bugging out, I really recommend flank speed in a city and cut down the nearest side street. But for the most part, it's up and out, downtown.

TT

Yeah, I forget that while the Mobile Long Tom is depicted as a multi piece tractor trailer like system but doesn't play that way in outside of having limited speed. Visually, I always imagined it would be like moving the Space Shuttle Endeavor across LA.   

[Hellraiser]

Keeping it intro tech level, I think the real problem with the Urbie is the massive Ballistic Weapon & tiny Energy Weapon.

Flip that ratio around for something that actually fits the concept.

Make it a PPC/LL with cluster of MGs & now you have a mech designed for Urban Combat.

In the process making it 3/5/3 means you can out maneuver an Atlas in a pinch.

The old BT Mag had a couple of "Suburban-Mechs" in an article 3 decades ago and they were nice options.
PPC, LL, SRMs, all make for a better choice than the AC10 on such a small platform.

[Frabby]

Perhaps we're misled by our (wrong) idea that the Long Tom gun is set up and used in a fashion similar to real world artillery.

Unless I missed something, the Long Tom can fire on the move, and doesn't need to be set up in a static position like real artillery does.

[massey]

Keeping it intro tech level, I think the real problem with the Urbie is the massive Ballistic Weapon & tiny Energy Weapon.

Flip that ratio around for something that actually fits the concept.

Make it a PPC/LL with cluster of MGs & now you have a mech designed for Urban Combat.

In the process making it 3/5/3 means you can out maneuver an Atlas in a pinch.

The old BT Mag had a couple of "Suburban-Mechs" in an article 3 decades ago and they were nice options.
PPC, LL, SRMs, all make for a better choice than the AC10 on such a small platform.

I disagree.  Range ain't that important in a city fight.  You're rarely going to need those extra 3 hexes from the PPC.  On the other hand, the minimum range penalty is going to be significant.  Outmaneuvering something is also unlikely to be important.  You're mobile enough to position yourself before the fight, but after that you really aren't going to move much.  Anything you can outmaneuver at 3/5/3 is going to murder you anyway.

[Frabby]

The Urbie is one of the most obvious 'Mechs begging for a Blazer refit...

[SteelRaven]

I disagree.  Range ain't that important in a city fight.  You're rarely going to need those extra 3 hexes from the PPC.  On the other hand, the minimum range penalty is going to be significant.  Outmaneuvering something is also unlikely to be important.  You're mobile enough to position yourself before the fight, but after that you really aren't going to move much.  Anything you can outmaneuver at 3/5/3 is going to murder you anyway.

It's not much range as weight, the Urbie pays a heavy price for the AC when you can do similar damage with energy weapons or a missile system still on the cheap without being reduced to a crawl. Really, the only reason this mech exist is because some people really liked ACs but at a certain point, it's just more efficient to get a AC field gun hooked up to something with a trailer hitch if you cant afford a Rommel or a Hunchback.   

[truetanker]

Wrong!

It's all about the CRUNCH! value.

TT

[SteelRaven]

Wrong!

It's all about the CRUNCH! value.

TT

*blinks, hands Truetanker a box of Captine Crunch and walks away*

[Syzyx]

Keeping it intro tech level, I think the real problem with the Urbie is the massive Ballistic Weapon & tiny Energy Weapon.

Flip that ratio around for something that actually fits the concept.

Make it a PPC/LL with cluster of MGs & now you have a mech designed for Urban Combat.

In the process making it 3/5/3 means you can out maneuver an Atlas in a pinch.

The old BT Mag had a couple of "Suburban-Mechs" in an article 3 decades ago and they were nice options.
PPC, LL, SRMs, all make for a better choice than the AC10 on such a small platform.

This would actually be quite a poor idea in a city you hope to keep, doubly so if the soldiers/MechWarriors have to interact with the populous. ACs, however mediocre in combat, don't start fires with anything like the regularity of big energy weapons.

[Daryk]

The Urbie is one of the most obvious 'Mechs begging for a Blazer refit...

THIS!!!!  SO MUCH THIS!!! I didn't even have to say it myself!!  :D

[Marveryn]

This would actually be quite a poor idea in a city you hope to keep, doubly so if the soldiers/MechWarriors have to interact with the populous. ACs, however mediocre in combat, don't start fires with anything like the regularity of big energy weapons.

to add when you miss with missles it tend to hit something else and normally a bunch of civies structure that your fighting around.  while if you have a decent gunner you may avoid extra city damage with a one hit one kill weapon.  less spread

[SteelRaven]

If you fighting with collateral damage in the rule set, you already screwed up by having all your forces fight in the city. I doubt all your shots will be 100% on target or the OF will care, especially if they are bum rushing their way through the city to kill that Long Tom you parked in the middle of the city. Honestly, the only way you are going to minimize damage is with a array of precise short range weapons, like a bunch of small lasers and/or MG which will minimize the chance of a stray shot going wide and hitting a building down the street. Only other option is literal knife fighting with melee weapons.     

[truetanker]

*blinks, hands Truetanker a box of Captine Crunch and walks away*

Only if I can have strawberry milk, otherwise... I'll take Quake cereal!

TT

[Cannonshop]

What bugs me about that idea is that the LT-MOB-25 Mobile Long Tom is huge, not only placing it in the city is going to make the city a target but getting the vehicle into positions in the city will be a pain. It was not a vehicle built to navigate city streets with ease. Great idea for a objective in a city fight though.

funny enough, the image is HUGE, but if you go by the weight of the ammunition and the effective range, it's an eight inch (203mm) howitzer, which can EASILY negotiate most major cities (as demonstrated in the second round of european insanity known as WW2.)

[Arkansas Warrior]

to add when you miss with missles it tend to hit something else and normally a bunch of civies structure that your fighting around.  while if you have a decent gunner you may avoid extra city damage with a one hit one kill weapon.  less spread

I’m not sure I understand the logic there.  A miss with PPC or AC10 does just as much damage as a miss with an LRM10.  Sure, it’s all in one place, but that might mean it blasts a massive hole in the road instead of a scattering of potholes.  Or that a building’s structural integrity is compromised because an important girder was heavily damaged, instead of just blowing out some windows and fragging some office furniture.

[truetanker]

You know there really needs to have a critical roll for buildings.  After taking so much damage a turn, if it doesn't destroy it outright,  there should be a critical roll to the superstructure.  Like for every 10 points or thereafter damage, a roll of X means the building collapses at the level and above, dealing falling damage equal to the number of levels as standard TW rules, and/or SO-IO rulesets. If default is an 8 to start fires, why not make it a 9 or so? That way a building on fire and collapsing would sound cool looking!

TT

If unarmored,  if armor standard damage.

[Wolf72]

along with the expansion account-tech, now we can introduce demolition-tech!

What was the "level a city block" line from? MW2?

[RifleMech]

Been thinking about this and I'm still not sure. Wouldn't heavier mechs and or vehicles be a better escort as they'd have more firepower and armor? I think the Urbies would be like the scouts for the escort. Or at least the first line of defense. They encounter, and hopefully take out any enemy units first. Those they can't destroy they delay. If any get past they would hopefully be damaged enough that they wouldn't want to take on the heavier defenders.

I do wish the machine gun Urbie was canon. It'd seem to make more sense in a city. At least there's customs.  >:D



 

[Marveryn]

I’m not sure I understand the logic there.  A miss with PPC or AC10 does just as much damage as a miss with an LRM10.  Sure, it’s all in one place, but that might mean it blasts a massive hole in the road instead of a scattering of potholes.  Or that a building’s structural integrity is compromised because an important girder was heavily damaged, instead of just blowing out some windows and fragging some office furniture.

missiles tend to spread.  So you get a slug that make a decent whole compare to spread weapons that you know for a fact is going to hit something beside the target your aiming.  At least with a single shot weapon you in theory can limit to damage to just your target if you hit. with the exception of streak, you know some missile no matter what is going to hit something else.  Now if your thinking of a streak urbie than I think you may have something.   

[SteelRaven]

You know, I don't have the rule set for collateral damage. What book do I need to reference for this argument?

[Hellraiser]

Well obviously Streaks & a SPL is a superior layout, but neither is Intro Tech, which is what we were discussing.

[RiotGrrl]

You know, I don't have the rule set for collateral damage. What book do I need to reference for this argument?

Missed shots are in Tactical Operations, pg 81.

[Sharpnel]

How about some Quisp cereal instead.

[Mendrugo]

Been thinking about this and I'm still not sure. Wouldn't heavier mechs and or vehicles be a better escort as they'd have more firepower and armor? I think the Urbies would be like the scouts for the escort. Or at least the first line of defense. They encounter, and hopefully take out any enemy units first. Those they can't destroy they delay. If any get past they would hopefully be damaged enough that they wouldn't want to take on the heavier defenders.

The Long Tom entry does mention Riflemen being assigned as escorts, presumably as defense against air strikes.  It’s not specified if that was a pre- or post-Amaris development.

[truetanker]

My atypical arty aassignment is Behemoth tanks with Bulldog / Goblin and accompanied by Infantry. Usually 3 LT or other, and a full lance of support. Any mechs are either their as defenders or militia.

If I

[jimdigris]

The second recognition manual has addressed the reason for the manufacture of the Urbanmech. :thumbsup:

[Hellraiser]

The Long Tom entry does mention Riflemen being assigned as escorts, presumably as defense against air strikes.

My atypical arty aassignment is Behemoth tanks with Bulldog / Goblin and accompanied by Infantry. Usually 3 LT or other, and a full lance of support. Any mechs are either their as defenders or militia.

I compromise these 2 & often assign Partisan's with my Artillery.  Often w/ APCs & Infantry
Full Platoons each of Artillery,  Tanks/APC/Infantry,  & support vehicles for Ammo/FDC/Forward Observers,  to make a full company.

[Karasu]

A while ago I played in a club 3025 competition with 8 UrbanMechs.  I was generally going up against 4-5 mixed enemies.  My tactic was to advance slowly up the board in a line and fire 8 AC10s at any target that was 7+ or better to hit.  If possible, on a sinkholes map.  It got me to the finals, and I think I'd have won if the designers had just switched that extra HS for another ton of ammo.

Which is to say that you're not going to be using Urbies in duels or pairs.  They're kind of anti-raider more than defense against a serious attack.  Stick a company in a warehouse district, and pirates or objective raiders get more than they'd bargained for.  It doesn't matter if I can't catch you when you have to come into my territory to complete your mission.

[RifleMech]

The Long Tom entry does mention Riflemen being assigned as escorts, presumably as defense against air strikes.  It’s not specified if that was a pre- or post-Amaris development.

Cool. Either way air defense is good. I was thinking more ground combat though. like the Annihilator only not it do to when it was introduced. But something like it. Along with some tanks and infantry.

[StCptMara]

I have always liked using Urbies as the anvils to another units Hammer.

The enemy doesn't just attack a place..they have an objective, and not to just "Blow up everything," usually.
What I consider my "Iconic Liao Lance" is a Lao-Hu, a Huron Warrior, and two Urbies. The Lao-hu and Huron
advance first, and engage the enemie, picking it apart as the Urbies either take entrenched positions(if it is a defensive mission), or advance slowly(like they have a choice!). When the time comes, the Lao hu and the Huron are on one side, and the Urbies are on the other..who do you run to?

I, of course, have also used a company of UrbanMechs as Assault Cavalry, doing combat drops behind the enemy from a dropship. They might not be able to move very fast..but if the other unit attacking the enemy position is doing it right, and you have a range of ACs and MRMs in your back field, with someone pouring Arrow IV on your position from off board? Well..which way are you going to run? Through the wall of slow death coming behind you, or the more conventional troops in front of you?