Author Topic: Intra-planet redeployment?  (Read 7662 times)

Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #30 on: 01 July 2020, 20:17:13 »
I can only appeal to the real world here, where every Fire Team has a "Designated Marksman"...

Sure, you may have that one guy in the section who scores the highest on the range but they will still get the issue rifle along with all the other grunts in the platoon & company.  Sniper rifles are not basic issue nor are they regular TO&E.  M-16 or -4s, M203s, M249s, or M240 (or 60s to go back) . . . sniper rifles are not issued to the line troops.
Colt Ward
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Ruger

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #31 on: 01 July 2020, 20:35:26 »
Sure, you may have that one guy in the section who scores the highest on the range but they will still get the issue rifle along with all the other grunts in the platoon & company.  Sniper rifles are not basic issue nor are they regular TO&E.  M-16 or -4s, M203s, M249s, or M240 (or 60s to go back) . . . sniper rifles are not issued to the line troops.

Doesn’t have to be a true sniper rifle, nor would it be a true sniper. Some countries do/did issue a designated marksman’s rifle to a soldier in a squad/fire team to provide long range fire options vs the majority of the units more intermediate range firepower. In the US, this rifle would often be a scoped variant of the M14, and that soldier would often also carry a M4 carbine.

Ruger
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Wolf72

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #32 on: 01 July 2020, 20:38:52 »
Do infantry get gunnery skills? If so, I would imagine a full platoon+ of sniper rifles may not get better than the average for them.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #33 on: 02 July 2020, 00:41:59 »
Infantry have 2 skills, Gunnery & Anti-Mech (Piloting), similar to every other unit.

The difference is they can choose to not be Anti-Mech trained which means it defaults to 7 or 8, I forget.

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Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #34 on: 02 July 2020, 02:25:26 »
Doesn’t have to be a true sniper rifle, nor would it be a true sniper. Some countries do/did issue a designated marksman’s rifle to a soldier in a squad/fire team to provide long range fire options vs the majority of the units more intermediate range firepower. In the US, this rifle would often be a scoped variant of the M14, and that soldier would often also carry a M4 carbine.

Ruger

Sure, but he is talking about militia infantry getting someone trained, assigned and equipped with a sniper rifle.  The DBG infantry components may- but then they are more likely to have a company of scout-snipers for each regiment rather than one assigned to each platoon.  But they are a elite formation and more likely to be in a situation where they need a sniper along with being equipped.
Colt Ward
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Daryk

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #35 on: 02 July 2020, 02:41:38 »
Hellraiser: yep, it's 8.

Colt: read the fluff in Shrapnel, especially about the Taurian rifle...  ^-^

RifleMech

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #36 on: 02 July 2020, 22:18:39 »
Dropships would be best. I don't know if every planet would be able to have dropships for their defenders. But they might be able to contract any dropships in port if needed.

Looking at the weights for support units, they could be equipped with bays, including Mech Bays. I'm not sure how fast they can go but they wouldn't have to stop to rest either. That would speed their travel as well as let them be rested when they arrive.

They also don't have to pick one specific location and risk being wrong. They could stop at a central point and then move to the location the raiders head for.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #37 on: 02 July 2020, 23:07:54 »
Alàs, t'he planetlifter got nerfed in later publications. It cannot transport up to heavy mechs anymore.

No doubt, but she still has the 20-ton cargo bay for running bug mechs across/between continents for militia units.

Also to be clear, with no mech bay, the Planetlifter cannot perform mech drops or otherwise deploy a Locust/Stinger/Wasp directly into a combat zone.  Cargo has to be offloaded, which takes time per rules in SO.
« Last Edit: 02 July 2020, 23:19:18 by Natasha Kerensky »
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #38 on: 03 July 2020, 00:50:02 »
And in later eras things like the Gun can also be run on Planetlifters, which is actually a decent threat to anything in its size class.
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #39 on: 03 July 2020, 17:33:11 »
And in later eras things like the Gun can also be run on Planetlifters, which is actually a decent threat to anything in its size class.

Alàs, t'he planetlifter got nerfed in later publications. It cannot transport up to heavy mechs anymore.

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #40 on: 03 July 2020, 17:48:02 »
The gun in an "Omni-Hornet" for lack of a better term, so at 20 tons, it IS able to be on a planet lifter which was Kamas' point.
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #41 on: 04 July 2020, 19:29:35 »
The gun in an "Omni-Hornet" for lack of a better term, so at 20 tons, it IS able to be on a planet lifter which was Kamas' point.
I don't have access to my books right now, but loading a 20 ton 'Mech onto a transport would take 20 or more minutes, and the same to unload, plus travel time. Ignoring the fact that the minimum raid force size is 4 'Mechs, so moving a single one around is stupid, there's the fact that once a raid moves into the 'smash and grab' phase you'll only have an hour at the outside to intercept the raiders, unless their target is your 'Mechs, in which case sending only 1 is precisely what they want.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #42 on: 04 July 2020, 20:08:03 »
To be fair, something like a planetlifter isn't going to be taking things into combat.  Just bringing them into theater, like tanks on an airlift.  My thought was bring it to the area - specifically where there's a runway to handle the Planetlifter - and then from there move it into combat under its own power.  It's not like you need to hot-drop the thing.

If you do, then you're back to requiring a DropShip.
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guardiandashi

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #43 on: 05 July 2020, 02:23:06 »
something like a planetlifter by itself isn't much good for redeploying assets (and would typically be used by the defenders not the attackers) on the other hand if you have 4 or more of them and can take a lance of mechs into the general area of something it looks like the enemy is going to attack that you don't have enough defenses onsite for what it appears that they are bringing then it can make a difference, and or could be extremely useful.

also with the old writeup of the planetlifter (pre nerf) the cargo deck of the planetlifter could be unloaded a lot faster than the weight of the cargo would imply IE you have a 20 ton mech strapped to the cargo deck in hot standby (takes 1-2 min to bring it ready to operate, and you land and come to a stop, drop the cargo floor, and cargo.  Then taxi away and get clear.  some people quickly disconnect all the cargo straps, the mech then stands up and walks off ready for combat in ~2-3 min not 20+

that was supposed to be one of the big advantages of the planetlifter.

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #44 on: 06 July 2020, 19:30:25 »
Post Nerf I feel like the best use of the PL now is to deploy 5-6 platoons of Jump Infantry/Paratroopers.

Sure its not a mech, but 2 companies of infantry able to dig into woods/buildings with support weapons can make for a very annoying day if you have to go through them.

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Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #45 on: 06 July 2020, 23:07:42 »
Post Nerf I feel like the best use of the PL now is to deploy 5-6 platoons of Jump Infantry/Paratroopers.

Sure its not a mech, but 2 companies of infantry able to dig into woods/buildings with support weapons can make for a very annoying day if you have to go through them.

Which is why I talked about using the better FB-335 and moving a pair of light tanks, towed guns and infantry.
Colt Ward
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Wolf72

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #46 on: 07 July 2020, 06:39:04 »
FB-335: oi! that's big plane.  I wonder if they would consider a propeller and solar/fusion design to increase range.
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Jellico

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #47 on: 07 July 2020, 09:07:48 »
How about a Tonbo? Slow, but can give certain Mechs a speed boost.

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #48 on: 07 July 2020, 09:17:55 »
Very informative posts. Thanks!
For what you are all saying, it seems that

1. A dropship seems to be the only really viable option of you have to move more than 150 km.

2. That dropships might be more common than I thought. So a militia might have a Leopard or Union to move stuff around. These dropships can be used for other uses in the meantime, like hauling ore from the asteroid belt when not in use by the militia. I can see a very dirty union with only 6 or 8 cubicles operational being used for this usage.

I thought there would be cheaper transports that only work in a planet, but chan transport more mechs than there really are. you do not really need t be able to attach to a jumpship, or be able to fly for months at a time to be useful as a planetary transport, but that kind of transportation does not seem to exist in the BT universe. It is like everything is hauled in 8-10 wheel trucks since delivery bans do not exist, but hey :)

In any case production and logistics have never been a focus of the Bt universe, so it is no biggie. I will just review my mental availability of dropships and crank it up like 50-100%.

Daryk

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #49 on: 07 July 2020, 09:38:37 »
I'd say it isn't that delivery vans don't exist... it's just that the things you really want to move are bigger than most delivery vans.  For example, most delivery vans are too small to move a grand piano without disassembly.  You simply need a bigger truck.

Wolf72

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #50 on: 07 July 2020, 10:19:05 »
Also if you're hunting a great white shark you might need a bigger boat.

back on topic, with a solar or fusion engine and propellers your plane has a limitless range (time is another matter).
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Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #51 on: 07 July 2020, 10:38:26 »
Very informative posts. Thanks!
2. That dropships might be more common than I thought. So a militia might have a Leopard or Union to move stuff around. These dropships can be used for other uses in the meantime, like hauling ore from the asteroid belt when not in use by the militia. I can see a very dirty union with only 6 or 8 cubicles operational being used for this usage.

More like the militia can use emergency powers to requisition that civilian transport offloading the latest shipment of Nike sneakers at the spaceport to move everything as cargo.  Civilian freighter dropships are more likely to be available than military models to militias.  FREX, say my state gets invaded . . . the local reserves & Guard here do not have APCs, they have trucks & humvees (though some are uparmored . . ).

Planetary transport comes down to a trade off of- speed/volume/range/development.  A developed planet is going to have larger/more transport networks . . . while DS operating is pretty cheap, its still not going to be as cheap as a Panamax freighter traveling between continents but its going to be a few weeks to get from place to place.  However, a small craft can do a suborbital hop to carry that 5 kilo vitally important widget that gets your whole production line working again in the space of a couple hours.

When it comes to shuffling military forces in the face of a raid (or invasion) the questions are simpler-

Will the forces moved be militarily significant at their destination?

Is their relocation important enough to counter the risk of losing the equipment/personnel and transport to enemy action?


Since you are talking about air mobile/airborn operations IMO you should consider IRL doctrine on that . . . which is pretty simply, the airborne transport planes (which would be analogs of DS & conventionals like the FB-335) do not travel anywhere with a relatively intact AA umbrella.  Air mobile (more equivalent to Small Craft IMO) are a bit different but its also b/c you lose a squad or two on most craft instead of a company or two when a transport plane gets knocked down.  Because as the raider/attacker I am going to keep my aerospace assets as hidden as possible so the defender does not know exactly what resources I have on hand- it gives me a chance to take things out piecemeal if I do not need ASF to land.  Flip-side is as the defender I have to worry about a squadron of ASF pouncing on a dropship or small craft doing a sub-orbital hop- or even a single ASF shooting down something like a PlanetLifter or FB-335, even with escorting CFs loaded with AA A4 or Light AA A4 (which will not be available everywhere).
Colt Ward
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Hellraiser

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #52 on: 07 July 2020, 11:17:13 »
Something like a "March Militia" might have access to several Military Dropships.

Standard Planetary Militia, at best might be able to get a hold of the smallest/most common designs.  Leo, Fury, Gazelle.
Just enough for a small quick redeployment.
More likely as Colt said, they would move more stuff w/ a cargo hauler.


So maybe XYZ world at any given time has this attached/available.

1.  Gazelle class Dropship.
2.  2x Planet Lifters
3.  Buccaneer cargo Dropship.


Its not a lot, but, a company of heavy tanks & 2 companies of infantry w/ 3 APCs can be deployed very quickly to blunt/reinforce an area with the better part of a 2 battalions more coming as "cargo" later.

1 Tank Battalion & 2 Infantry Battalions won't stand up to a mech regiment, but it might to a good job of holding off a mixed company of Pirate raiders.  (8 mechs, 8 tanks, 4 infantry platoons)


It doesn't take much to be a mobile force either if its your finest units.

Sure, the target might only have a company of Scorpion Light Tanks & Leg Infantry battalion on hand normally as its standing defenses.
Part of a mixed Tank/Infantry brigade that is the planetary militia.

But the pinnacle of the militia is a company of Manticore/Patton tanks & being able to drop 12 of those w/ some more infantry in the path of the raiders changes the equation considerably.

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Cannonshop

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #53 on: 07 July 2020, 11:29:46 »
I think you guys might be missing some pretty obvious things here...

1. every world is going to be slightly different, but a few things about habitation are that people will tend to want to build ways to move lots of goods over long distances fairly quickly.  This 'lots of goods' includes everything from commercial goods to military forces.

2. if dropships are rare, or hard to get ahold of or tasked with something higher priority, most military planners will have SOME other option.

3.  'other options' can include everything from 18 wheelers to Trains, to barges, to boats, to jet aircraft, depending on where and how far you're going to need to move those things.

4. Anything worth stealing/capturing or destroying is going to have infrastructure to move troops into, onto, or next to it if they aren't already inside.

This means there are a HUGE number of options available besides 'load onto a dropship and pray'.

most of those have already been mentioned, as a matter of fact, but keep in mind what killed the GDL.  Grayson loaded up the unit on a monorail and it got nuked.

this suggests that rail transport probably is a thing.  (More to the point, we have rules for building some).

The important thing for your campaign players isn't necessarily how the Opfor got there, but making sure you have Opfor for them to defeat.

for story-writing purposes, or for the really cool in-depth campaign designers who want to give their players a full-on simulation experience, it's a matter of cracking open the books and designing/generating/discussing all that infrastructure (and maybe using it to set time tables or restrict how many thillion infantry can actually respond to the raiders-aka how long to mobilize a serious counter-attack/defense?)

Really, all the suggestions here are good.  Seriously good, some of the questions and objections are also good.  But really, past the breaking eggs and mixing stage, what you bake into your scenario, setting, plot, or storyline really just need to be internally consistent with the game you're running or the story you're telling.  (and, of course, have some resemblance to the ruleset if you're including scenario work for actual gameplay).
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Daryk

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #54 on: 07 July 2020, 11:56:05 »
The main thing to remember here is that conventional infantry is literally the easiest thing to deploy from "standard" cargo bays without any set up or break down time.  TIME is the principal asset in responding to a raid, whether it's by surprise (from a "legitimate" civilian hauler that lied, or an obviously military raider that used a pirate point).  Vehicles (and BA) need dedicated bays (the tonnage of which can be debated elsewhere) that infantry just doesn't NEED.  Infantry continues to be relevant in this universe (despite its cost) for exactly this reason.  Time is literally priceless.

Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #55 on: 07 July 2020, 12:18:27 »
The main thing to remember here is that conventional infantry is literally the easiest thing to deploy from "standard" cargo bays without any set up or break down time.  TIME is the principal asset in responding to a raid, whether it's by surprise (from a "legitimate" civilian hauler that lied, or an obviously military raider that used a pirate point).  Vehicles (and BA) need dedicated bays (the tonnage of which can be debated elsewhere) that infantry just doesn't NEED.  Infantry continues to be relevant in this universe (despite its cost) for exactly this reason.  Time is literally priceless.

Actually, BA can load into cargo and deploy like infantry.  Both do not even need 'doors' in the design of the DS/SC/CF like mechs and other equipment.
Colt Ward
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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #56 on: 07 July 2020, 12:35:26 »
So.... what do BA Bays get you beyond regular Infantry Bays?  Are they truly interchangeable?  I'm inclined to think not, but could be easily persuaded by a page reference...

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #57 on: 07 July 2020, 13:54:02 »
So.... what do BA Bays get you beyond regular Infantry Bays?  Are they truly interchangeable?  I'm inclined to think not, but could be easily persuaded by a page reference...

I'd imagine that BA Bays allow you to maintain the suits as opposed to just move them from point A to point B.

Colt Ward

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #58 on: 07 July 2020, 14:00:28 »
I'd imagine that BA Bays allow you to maintain the suits as opposed to just move them from point A to point B.

This . . . so AeroSpace bays like Infantry/vehicle/mech bays, have quarters for the personnel along with storage/repair of suits.  Going for a suborbital hop its like the APCs . . . so 4t of cargo/infantry space means you can haul a platoon or a squad of BA, you pick.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Daryk

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Re: Intra-planet redeployment?
« Reply #59 on: 07 July 2020, 14:16:06 »
So Infantry Compartments can hold either conventional Infantry or BA?  I like that idea...

 

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