Author Topic: Warship Armor  (Read 15798 times)

ABADDON

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Warship Armor
« on: 29 August 2011, 05:42:56 »
I just found myself wondering, what technological advantages causes the difference in points/ton ratio when comparing Clan Warship Armor and IS tech warship grade Armor.
Is it just more efficiently produced, similar to Mech grade Ferro-Fibrous or is it because of the HarJel or maybe even both?

cray

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #1 on: 29 August 2011, 06:30:40 »
I just found myself wondering, what technological advantages causes the difference in points/ton ratio when comparing Clan Warship Armor and IS tech warship grade Armor.
Is it just more efficiently produced, similar to Mech grade Ferro-Fibrous or is it because of the HarJel or maybe even both?


Basically, the technology's better. Beyond that, the differences are unpublished speculation.

I think HarJel has been implicated for some of the differences (specifically, the aftermath of damage) but it's not like stopping air leaks is a big deal. People stopped concerning themselves with total armor coverage of combat units when the US figured out "all or nothing" armoring for warships in 1912. You protect the stuff that matters, like crew combat comparments, engines, and magazines, not every little bubble of air in the ship, and HarJel's not going to add anything to stopping a hyper-velocity NAC shell.

Could be the armor architecture's better - people stopped using simple slabs of steel plate in tanks in the 1940s as they figured out new ways of arranging the armor to get much more weight-effective means of using steel. Whipple shields are a great example of this on spacecraft: using the same aluminum alloy, a few space sheets of aluminum will provide much, much better protection against hypersonic space debris than a solid slab of aluminum.

Could be the materials are better. What's the difference between a carbon steel made in 1890 and an Aermet 340 steel made in 2010? Likewise, not all "ferro-carbide" is necessarily created equal.

In short, the technology's better and there's not a lot of fluff to explain why. You can grope around in the dark with real world comparisons, but that doesn't provide a canon explanation.
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ABADDON

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #2 on: 29 August 2011, 06:45:00 »
Ah, k. That helps, cray. thx. Thought, I had overlooked that part in the sourcebooks.

CJvR

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All or nothing...
« Reply #3 on: 29 August 2011, 16:41:27 »
The main reason for that particular armor structure had more to do with evolving gunnery. With the effective fighting range growing ever longer the only real threat to a ship came from the heavy guns and they grew in size and lethality so AorN was a logical consequence of that development. It had actually been used before in the early central-battery & turret ships but improvements in armor strength made AorN obsolete until the offensive technologies caught up again. With BT's unbreachable armor I expect AorN to have fallen out of favor.

cray

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Re: All or nothing...
« Reply #4 on: 29 August 2011, 17:01:59 »
It had actually been used before in the early central-battery & turret ships but improvements in armor strength made AorN obsolete until the offensive technologies caught up again.

I saw that this morning, in fact. I had thought it started with the Nevadas, but the central battery ships did play around with it, too.

Quote
With BT's unbreachable armor I expect AorN to have fallen out of favor.

BT does not have unbreachable armor. On WarShips, short of having more than 700 capital points of armor (or more, when facing mass drivers and nukes), it is quite possible to get internal damage without destroying all armor in a location. Other than Leviathans, no canon ships can shrug off a 70-point capital bay salvo without a critical hit opportunity.

And no matter how thick the armor, capital missiles always get a critical hit opportunity.

Further, BT's large spacecraft are ludicrously oversized for their crews, weaponry, engines, fuel, cargo, and total tonnage. They're giant tin-foil blimps that show substantial buoyancy in air. You could try to armor the whole ship, but very little of the ship's volume actually needs armor - why not concentrate armor to 100x the thickness over the 1% of the volume that actually needs protecting?

You can easily attribute many rolls within 1 or 2 points of the target number to hitting non-vital regions of the ship, while the critical systems have armoring at more credible levels. Thin plate, rather than sub-millimeter foil.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Marwynn

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #5 on: 29 August 2011, 17:32:42 »
Been meaning to ask, cray, what would be a more realistic size for BT's spaceships? Some of these ships are hundreds of metres long and a few hundred thousand tons in mass.

cray

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #6 on: 29 August 2011, 17:35:47 »
Been meaning to ask, cray, what would be a more realistic size for BT's spaceships? Some of these ships are hundreds of metres long and a few hundred thousand tons in mass.

Divide all dimensions (but sail diameter) by a factor 2 to 3.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Marwynn

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #7 on: 29 August 2011, 17:50:39 »
By that much eh? Filing that away as part of my fanon, thanks.

Jellico

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Re: All or nothing...
« Reply #8 on: 29 August 2011, 20:35:36 »
I saw that this morning, in fact. I had thought it started with the Nevadas, but the central battery ships did play around with it, too.

BT does not have unbreachable armor. On WarShips, short of having more than 700 capital points of armor (or more, when facing mass drivers and nukes), it is quite possible to get internal damage without destroying all armor in a location. Other than Leviathans, no canon ships can shrug off a 70-point capital bay salvo without a critical hit opportunity.

And no matter how thick the armor, capital missiles always get a critical hit opportunity.

Further, BT's large spacecraft are ludicrously oversized for their crews, weaponry, engines, fuel, cargo, and total tonnage. They're giant tin-foil blimps that show substantial buoyancy in air. You could try to armor the whole ship, but very little of the ship's volume actually needs armor - why not concentrate armor to 100x the thickness over the 1% of the volume that actually needs protecting?

You can easily attribute many rolls within 1 or 2 points of the target number to hitting non-vital regions of the ship, while the critical systems have armoring at more credible levels. Thin plate, rather than sub-millimeter foil.

Arguably it goes back to HMS Warrior. As soon as people started playing with iron and bulkheads they twigged to the idea that not only could they armour everywere, they didn't need to armor everywhere. All or nothing was a logical development to where gunnery was going at the time. It held up better over time than what precceeded it, but that doesn't mean the European style at the time was wrong in context. Besides there were big issues with the immune zone concept when you were not fighting on a flat open map with ideal visability.

Swinging it back round to Battletech, you are probably right about the vast areas that need no armour at all. It is interesting to consider on an abstract level whether we are looking at penetration crits or hitting unarmoured areas.

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #9 on: 29 August 2011, 20:55:31 »
Maybe the harjel has a function similar to the plastic film in safety glass; it basically just holds the flakes of armour together enough to keep the plate of armour in place just a few minutes longer; it does not have to be everywhere, just key intersections of frame to armour.

Fallen_Raven

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Re: All or nothing...
« Reply #10 on: 30 August 2011, 00:21:04 »
Further, BT's large spacecraft are ludicrously oversized for their crews, weaponry, engines, fuel, cargo, and total tonnage. They're giant tin-foil blimps that show substantial buoyancy in air. You could try to armor the whole ship, but very little of the ship's volume actually needs armor - why not concentrate armor to 100x the thickness over the 1% of the volume that actually needs protecting?

You can easily attribute many rolls within 1 or 2 points of the target number to hitting non-vital regions of the ship, while the critical systems have armoring at more credible levels. Thin plate, rather than sub-millimeter foil.

Well some of the art indicates that Warships are not round, so a small part of the ships width is only a deck or two high. Which affects volume more than surface area, but it does save on the amount of space that would be "vital".
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Khymerion

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #11 on: 30 August 2011, 08:14:39 »
On the topic of AoN, I was wondering why there were not dorsal and ventral turrets for major weapon batteries in an attempt to save space, tonnage, and heat sinks by letting the battery fire in an arc instead of just locked into what might as well amount to casemate mounts.   While I love the warships to death, the ability to consolidate the massive broadsides into turrets might promote smaller warship masses as being more viable.
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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #12 on: 30 August 2011, 18:25:45 »
I am sorry, but blank statements like that immediately make me as "why?"

If turrets are the be-all and end-all why did ships-of-the-line have hundreds of fixed guns. Don't say sailing rig as iron clads combined relatively few guns with fairly large degrees of traverse and a sailing rig. The answer probably comes back to Battletech weapons being relatively light weight and needing to be available in large numbers to achieve an effect. A battleship's turret could weigh 10% of the ship's mass. Single batteries in BT typically weight 1-3% of the ship's mass.

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #13 on: 31 August 2011, 01:49:06 »
Clan Armor you can put more points per ton.
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verybad

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #14 on: 31 August 2011, 02:43:31 »
On the topic of AoN, I was wondering why there were not dorsal and ventral turrets for major weapon batteries in an attempt to save space, tonnage, and heat sinks by letting the battery fire in an arc instead of just locked into what might as well amount to casemate mounts.   While I love the warships to death, the ability to consolidate the massive broadsides into turrets might promote smaller warship masses as being more viable.

Think of it as warship battles are actually taking place in 3 dimensions, not the flat boards they're modeled in. The turrets are actually in the most efficient pattern possible, but the 3 dimensions adds more complexity to that pattern than a simple duplication of blue naval turrets locations.
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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #15 on: 31 August 2011, 07:41:38 »
In the WarShip battle over Tharkad during the FedCom Civil War, Werewolf (the WiE flagship McKenna) is described as having its H-N-PPCs in turrets and when her target (Fylgia? Yggdrasil? Pretty sure it was a Mjolnir) makes the mistake of straying into her "kill zone" where all of the PPCs can hit the target, the duel's over.

Obviously, a McKenna's arcs being what they are there is no way you could drop all the PPCs onto one target in a naval game, but it is there in the fluff for at least one instance.
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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #16 on: 31 August 2011, 09:27:36 »
In the WarShip battle over Tharkad during the FedCom Civil War, Werewolf (the WiE flagship McKenna) is described as having its H-N-PPCs in turrets and when her target (Fylgia? Yggdrasil? Pretty sure it was a Mjolnir) makes the mistake of straying into her "kill zone" where all of the PPCs can hit the target, the duel's over.

Obviously, a McKenna's arcs being what they are there is no way you could drop all the PPCs onto one target in a naval game, but it is there in the fluff for at least one instance.

Could be that it meant all the NPPCs from one broadside (one broadside plus a fore-side and an aft side); six 60-cap bays at extreme range is nothing to sneeze at; if within medium capital range you can add the 40-cap NAC bays, a 17-cap NL bay and 2 AR-10 launchers (4 if bearings-only launched); if everything hits, it will strip even the nose armour of the Mjolnir, to say nothing of the thresholds.

A. Lurker

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #17 on: 31 August 2011, 11:24:16 »
On the topic of AoN, I was wondering why there were not dorsal and ventral turrets for major weapon batteries in an attempt to save space, tonnage, and heat sinks by letting the battery fire in an arc instead of just locked into what might as well amount to casemate mounts.   While I love the warships to death, the ability to consolidate the massive broadsides into turrets might promote smaller warship masses as being more viable.

Capital weapons tend to mass hundreds and thousands of tons each. You'd need a turret mechanism capable of moving that mass, and doing so quickly and smoothly enough to be able to track targets that move and maneuver rather more quickly than any blue-navy vessel ever did in turn...and then you'd still only be able to engage in one direction per turret at a time and would have to watch your field of fire for chunks of your own ship that might get in the way (a real concern for historical turret-mounted weapons on both naval vessels -- where at times the simple muzzle blast of the main guns was problem enough -- and aircraft).

From a layman's perspective on the engineering side, multiple semi-fixed batteries (they already can't be totally rigid or we wouldn't have firing arcs at all) that can trade targets as needed definitely look easier to handle than the headache of multi-thousand-ton turrets trying to cover an entire hemisphere at once. Plus, they're arguably potentially better at absorbing battle damage simply because, having brought more guns, you can afford to lose more of them as well before you start to seriously feel it.

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #18 on: 31 August 2011, 12:30:19 »
On the topic of AoN, I was wondering why there were not dorsal and ventral turrets for major weapon batteries in an attempt to save space, tonnage, and heat sinks by letting the battery fire in an arc instead of just locked into what might as well amount to casemate mounts.   While I love the warships to death, the ability to consolidate the massive broadsides into turrets might promote smaller warship masses as being more viable.

Warships in space have one advantage over waterborne vessels-- there is no penalty for the ship's vector not being lined up with the long axis of the ship.  Except for high speed passes at very close ranges, you can get away with just training the ship, with a small amount of traverse at the mounts to engage multiple targets.

Instead of turrets, we would expect ships to be asymmetrical.  One long side would be taken up by the heavy anti-ship weapons and the other side, shielded by the bulk of the hull would be the massive radiators needed to reject the waste heat of the power systems (on a per watt basis, radiator size is minimised by only running at 20% thermal efficiency, so there will be lots of waste heat).  Warships would look like the great fore-and-aft rigged sailing ships with great incandescent sails and guns firing out the bottom, with opposing fleets lining up, faced keel to keel.  The small anti-ASF weaponry would be mounted in turrets.
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verybad

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #19 on: 31 August 2011, 15:54:22 »
Warships in space have one advantage over waterborne vessels-- there is no penalty for the ship's vector not being lined up with the long axis of the ship.  Except for high speed passes at very close ranges, you can get away with just training the ship, with a small amount of traverse at the mounts to engage multiple targets.

Instead of turrets, we would expect ships to be asymmetrical.  One long side would be taken up by the heavy anti-ship weapons and the other side, shielded by the bulk of the hull would be the massive radiators needed to reject the waste heat of the power systems (on a per watt basis, radiator size is minimised by only running at 20% thermal efficiency, so there will be lots of waste heat).  Warships would look like the great fore-and-aft rigged sailing ships with great incandescent sails and guns firing out the bottom, with opposing fleets lining up, faced keel to keel.  The small anti-ASF weaponry would be mounted in turrets.

All well and good until you start taking shots from multiple angles. Distributed guns and armored sections would improve survival. Why would you line up with the other fleet just to make them happy? You encircle their fleet and hit their unarmed side if it's designed like that, keeping the ships their facing at logner range, shift as they try to react.
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Khymerion

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #20 on: 31 August 2011, 16:55:26 »
I honestly don't mind the trade off of not having 3/4 of my guns unable to fire a turn for the ability to have massive dorsal and ventral turrets.   The weight saved in heat sinks and mass of the now superfluous extra casemate batteries gets to be negated at this point.   Rarely do I seem to have the problem when running battlespace/aerotech 2/TW/SO of being surrounded at any one time by warships... which is what I want to see turreted.

I can accept major limitations.  Forward and stern batteries would not be able to trace back over each other...  okay, no problem there.  270* arcs fore and aft.  Solved.   90* arc turn per round/minute.  This is capital scale and these are massive guns...  I could easily accept that individual turrets (IE Bays) couldn't mount more than triple or quad mounts.  Limits it to really being effective with N-PPCs, N-Gauss, and N-Laser 55s.  Then again, rarely seem to have a problem of a major warship crossing two arcs in a single turn so the turret problem really isn't a problem.  If it is, you are probably WAY too close and you shouldn't be seeing the paint job on their hull anyways.

Is ventral and dorsal armaments a limitation?  Not if the ship can roll itself in any meaningful way.   This is 3 dimensional space, there is nothing saying that the ship can not roll to bring both sides of it's turret clusters to bear.   It seems almost to be a massive advantage to keep turrets rather than casemate guns and massed broadsides.

By the way, that is an artifact left over from Leviathan... which had a much simpler arc system than the convoluted weapon arcs we have today.  They were also a good deal larger than the ships we have in Battletech... so it made sense to a minor degree there...  but there at least the anti-fighter and anti-missile guns were turreted.  Much simpler game though.

Here, I can not see anything that prevents honestly the turreted main battery.   Give it a massive weight penalty, 50% of the mass of the bay...  since it is covering now a large number of arcs.   I wouldn't mind if it meant I could centralize my guns and know that I can actually fire them at an enemy instead of looking at a massive sheet of weapons, 50% to 60% which may never fire a shot in anger at another warship in the life span of the ship.

I love Leviathan to death.  I would still kill to take an Illustris or Shiva out for a spin again...  even if both are far too big to be battletech warships.  BTW:  only Mars, Ultor, and Repulse are reproducible in any way with our current rules.  But this was a game that had 1.2 million ton frigates (Hipper & Indomitable) and destroyers (Moltke) that were somehow inferior to the 1.2 million ton cruisers  (Invictus) so a good deal of things did not make sense there either.

Maybe the addition of these kind of weapons MIGHT shake the clingy bits of Levithan that are still clinging on... either that or give us back our 25, 50, and 100 laser cannon capital bays and crowbars if we are going to cling to bones of our dead ancestors.  It might add another bit of tactics to the game instead of engaging the the might art of 19th century Napoleonic naval combat in space during the 31st and 32nd century.   After all, we gave the battlemech a turret and if those walking garbage cans can manage to fumble around and still use a turret, nothing prevents something the size of an Essex or Black Lion from doing the same.

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verybad

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #21 on: 01 September 2011, 02:13:21 »
The numbers for ships are so loose (to cover the ships that were written before there were construction rules) that I don't really view them as anything other than a game. It's not a simulation.

Essentually, if the game were to be made realistic and make sense, it would be a different game.

Fighters should have turrets also for instance. They would be much easier to build turrets onto (especially with laser weapons). Armor, as been mentioned many times, should be much heavier, as should fuel/mass.

I've thought of the forward and rear sited turrets that give much better arcs before myself, but those are unlikely to ever happen. Unfortuneatly, the aerospace side of the game isn't popular enough marketwise to ever get a full on remodel.

If you want realistic, then probably use Traveler tech, and keep the Btech fluff.

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rlbell

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #22 on: 01 September 2011, 03:00:39 »
All well and good until you start taking shots from multiple angles. Distributed guns and armored sections would improve survival. Why would you line up with the other fleet just to make them happy? You encircle their fleet and hit their unarmed side if it's designed like that, keeping the ships their facing at logner range, shift as they try to react.

The asymmetric ships maneuver, too, and there is no automatic reason that they are less maneuverable than the symmetric ships.  Unless the symmetric ships are much more maneuverable than the asymmetric ships, or detection ranges are really short, attempting an englobement invites defeat in detail, if the asymmetric ships can engage part of the symmetric force before the disparate elements are close enough to support each other.

Your assumption that the symmetric ships are maneuverable enough to open the range faster than the asymmetric ship can roll seems a tad optimistic.

In the BTU, unlike the sort of milieu I had in mind when describing the great sheets of incandescent  radiating surfaces, the only way to figure out where the asymmetric ships's guns are pointing, if it isn't shooting, is to get close enough to read the "This side towards enemy" decal.

As to why to I would line up my ships into a parallel formation when facing such a group of vessels?  Because, if they are trying to keep me from shooting their radiators out, I probably want to keep them from doing the same thing to me, and both forces have the detection ranges and maneuverability to keep one from crossing the other's 'T'.  In a universe where heat rejection is by radiators, and you cannot shoot through your own radiators, symmetrically armed ships make less sense, especially if their radiators are also symmetric.

By the way, that is an artifact left over from Leviathan... which had a much simpler arc system than the convoluted weapon arcs we have today.  They were also a good deal larger than the ships we have in Battletech... so it made sense to a minor degree there...  but there at least the anti-fighter and anti-missile guns were turreted.  Much simpler game though.

Here, I can not see anything that prevents honestly the turreted main battery.   Give it a massive weight penalty, 50% of the mass of the bay...  since it is covering now a large number of arcs.   I wouldn't mind if it meant I could centralize my guns and know that I can actually fire them at an enemy instead of looking at a massive sheet of weapons, 50% to 60% which may never fire a shot in anger at another warship in the life span of the ship.

I love Leviathan to death.  I would still kill to take an Illustris or Shiva out for a spin again...  even if both are far too big to be battletech warships.  BTW:  only Mars, Ultor, and Repulse are reproducible in any way with our current rules.  But this was a game that had 1.2 million ton frigates (Hipper & Indomitable) and destroyers (Moltke) that were somehow inferior to the 1.2 million ton cruisers  (Invictus) so a good deal of things did not make sense there either.

The reason the Moltke was inferior to the Invictus was that the Moltke had a single huge engine that massed more than half a million tons, but the three engines of the Invictus, due to the non-linear rate mass rose with power output,  probably only massed a third of that, despite having upwards of 50% more power than the Moltke.

The construction rules in Leviathan were brutally broken and even I would insist on only using canon units-- a cruiser with 100,000 power units of engines cannot survive any length of time under the guns of a battleships with 101,000 power units of engines,  Cruisers of 76,000 power rating trounce 75,000 rated frigates, and 51,000 rated frigates abuse 50,000 rated destroyers.  It is still great to play.
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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #23 on: 01 September 2011, 05:58:27 »
Always fun to watch a thread evolve after the requested answer to the original post has immediately been given in the first posting.

Keep going.  :P
« Last Edit: 01 September 2011, 06:01:31 by ABADDON »

verybad

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #24 on: 01 September 2011, 15:56:29 »
The asymmetric ships maneuver, too, and there is no automatic reason that they are less maneuverable than the symmetric ships.  Unless the symmetric ships are much more maneuverable than the asymmetric ships, or detection ranges are really short, attempting an englobement invites defeat in detail, if the asymmetric ships can engage part of the symmetric force before the disparate elements are close enough to support each other.

Your assumption that the symmetric ships are maneuverable enough to open the range faster than the asymmetric ship can roll seems a tad optimistic.
Please show me where I made that assumption? I can't find it.

Your ships are designed for a line fight. What happens if the enemy are firing from many different angles all at the same time? You can't engage them all at once. Or from any vector you may be going towards.

You have to armor all sides equally for this reason obviously. Why should I simply line my ships up to fight in the manner you wish too? That's silly. I have them do quick strikes at 1000 hex per turn speeds (for example) from many different angles. If you're using multiple ships firing at many different targets in many different directions, your design idea gains nothign as the fleets firepower is spread out just as a more conventional ships design is spread out. If your ships take motive damage, then they become MUCH more vulnerable.




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In the BTU, unlike the sort of milieu I had in mind when describing the great sheets of incandescent  radiating surfaces, the only way to figure out where the asymmetric ships's guns are pointing, if it isn't shooting, is to get close enough to read the "This side towards enemy" decal.
Nobody is going to fall for the "what way are their guns facing?" argument. Hubble class telescopes would be easy to put on btech sized dropships let alone warships. You can read the manufacturers maintainance labels on ships panels LONG before they're in firing range.

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As to why to I would line up my ships into a parallel formation when facing such a group of vessels?  Because, if they are trying to keep me from shooting their radiators out, I probably want to keep them from doing the same thing to me, and both forces have the detection ranges and maneuverability to keep one from crossing the other's 'T'.  In a universe where heat rejection is by radiators, and you cannot shoot through your own radiators, symmetrically armed ships make less sense, especially if their radiators are also symmetric.
There is no "T" in 3 dimensions, the velocity limitations of blue navy warfare are also removed. You can have ships passing within range of even the longest capital weaposn for a FRACTION of a second. Whyever would I line up my ships to be happily massacred in a 19th century formation? Spaceships go fast.

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The reason the Moltke was inferior to the Invictus was that the Moltke had a single huge engine that massed more than half a million tons, but the three engines of the Invictus, due to the non-linear rate mass rose with power output,  probably only massed a third of that, despite having upwards of 50% more power than the Moltke.

The construction rules in Leviathan were brutally broken and even I would insist on only using canon units-- a cruiser with 100,000 power units of engines cannot survive any length of time under the guns of a battleships with 101,000 power units of engines,  Cruisers of 76,000 power rating trounce 75,000 rated frigates, and 51,000 rated frigates abuse 50,000 rated destroyers.  It is still great to play.
Yeah, Leviathan was not a simulation, it was a popcorn game. The background though was incredible. (and it was great fun as you say). The thing about the system was the thing that made the differerence wasn't the power, it was the armor levels on those classes of ships. A good missile strike could make up much of the difference, Battleships were hard to beat with lesser ships, but historically, that's also the case, and armor was the main reason. Torpedoes (the equivalent of missiles in Leviathan) were gamechangers.

Always fun to watch a thread evolve after the requested answer to the original post has immediately been given in the first posting.

Keep going.  :P
Yes, I agree, thank you. PS. The reason clan armor is better than lesser armor is because they use more Unobtainium.
« Last Edit: 01 September 2011, 16:02:13 by verybad »
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Fireangel

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #25 on: 01 September 2011, 16:06:45 »
PS. The reason clan armor is better than lesser armor is because they use more Unobtainium.

I thought it was handwavium? :D

verybad

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #26 on: 01 September 2011, 16:34:17 »
Handwaivium is what IS ships use, that's why they're not as good.
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Fireangel

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #27 on: 01 September 2011, 16:36:10 »
Handwaivium is what IS ships use, that's why they're not as good.

So what do Canopian ships use? Vibranium? ::)

ABADDON

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #28 on: 01 September 2011, 16:53:40 »

Yes, I agree, thank you. PS. The reason clan armor is better than lesser armor is because they use more Unobtainium.

Ah, darn it. And here I though they use a special and very secret Naquadah-Trinium alloy, instead of the usual Ferro-carbid.  :P

rlbell

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Re: Warship Armor
« Reply #29 on: 02 September 2011, 02:36:07 »
I read the following:

You encircle their fleet and hit their unarmed side if it's designed like that, keeping the ships their facing at logner range, shift as they try to react.

I thought it said that you would encircle the asymmetric fleet.  The closest ships on the unarmed side and the ships that the asymmetric ships would be facing would be further away.  I assumed that "shift as the they try to react" means that the close ships move away as the asymmetric ships roll to face them, and the further out vessels close as the asymmetric ships turn away from them.  How can this be pulled off if the encircling vessels cannot vary the range faster than the asymmetric ships can roll?

Please show me where I made that assumption? I can't find it.

Your ships are designed for a line fight. What happens if the enemy are firing from many different angles all at the same time? You can't engage them all at once. Or from any vector you may be going towards.

They can also form a form a plane, but the aerospace rules are for a 2d map.

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You have to armor all sides equally for this reason obviously. Why should I simply line my ships up to fight in the manner you wish too? That's silly. I have them do quick strikes at 1000 hex per turn speeds (for example) from many different angles. If you're using multiple ships firing at many different targets in many different directions, your design idea gains nothign as the fleets firepower is spread out just as a more conventional ships design is spread out. If your ships take motive damage, then they become MUCH more vulnerable.

I never said that the armor had to be asymmetric, just the weapons.  Unless you have inertialess drives, setting up a fleet to pass a target at 1000 hexes a turn from multiple directions requires that at some point, the groups making the seperate runs be over fifty thousand hexes apart (assuming they can thrust at ten hexes per turn per turn, for lower thrusts, the distances are greater)-- an invitation to defeat in detail as the force you are trying to engage can spoil things by accelerating to one of the forces before the planned rendezvous.  It also requires huge amounts of fuel. 

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Nobody is going to fall for the "what way are their guns facing?" argument. Hubble class telescopes would be easy to put on btech sized dropships let alone warships. You can read the manufacturers maintainance labels on ships panels LONG before they're in firing range.

The asymmetric ships all face their guns in one direction and keeps them there, until the opposing force has committed to one side, or the other.  Then, for the turn of the firing pass, each ship spends a thrust point to roll the ship to bring weapons to bear.

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A: So parents do not kill them.

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