Author Topic: Plastic minis  (Read 5402 times)

BARNESGN

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Plastic minis
« on: 15 May 2011, 12:04:49 »
Who can yo purchase the plastic minis from? Dumb question I know but humor me.

DarkISI

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Re: Plastic minis
« Reply #1 on: 15 May 2011, 12:08:14 »
You can get the Loki from the Battleshop, the Thor seems to be unavailable.
http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=27_218

The low quality Intro Box miniatures are not available outside of the boxed set.
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Gordon

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Re: Plastic minis
« Reply #2 on: 26 May 2011, 13:47:36 »
Beautiful... I only want MORE of this quality plastic miniatures!
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DarkISI

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Re: Plastic minis
« Reply #3 on: 26 May 2011, 14:28:52 »
See here: http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,5435.msg140510.html#msg140510

Quote
Hello,

Thank you for your comments. I'm afraid I cannot get into all of the particulars as to why plastic miniatures remain a rarer and more difficult endeavor for us than metal at this time. This is, however, an ever-changing market, and we don't know yet what the future holds for it.

Thank you,

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MEP

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Re: Plastic minis
« Reply #4 on: 26 May 2011, 22:20:30 »
As has been stated many times in the past (we need a sticky), the plastic minis of the Thor/Loki quality are more expensive to tool up for. Molds for injection molding (which are made out of solid aluminum or (better yet) steel) are much more expensive than molds for metal/resin casting (which are typically made out of flexible silicon resin). A good injection mold will last a lot longer and produce better results over time with less wear, but we're talking about different orders of magnitude when it comes down to tooling cost.

So in order for plastic minis to be profitable they have to sell significantly more quantities than they would sell with metal minis. Unless CGL can sell way more minis than are currently being sold through IWM right now, it is simply not cost-effective to make the higher quality plastics. This is probably why the only plastic mechs you can find are in the intro set, which is easily the best-selling set of minis in the CBT line-up.

Companies like Games Workshop can sell pretty nice plastic minis for two reasons:

A) They're charging for these things like they were made out of metal even when they're not.

B) They're selling tens of thousands of most of their plastic product line.

The other thing GW is doing though is switching to resin casting for their metal figurines. Resin behaves much more similarly to tin when molded. It's not exactly the same, but it's close enough that they can use a lot of the same molds or they can make new molds with the same sculpts at least. I wouldn't be surprised if other mini manufacturers started looking at resin as an option. The end result would be essentially the same minis we have now, only made of a very hard and dense thermoset plastic that actually kind of feels like plaster to the touch though it's pretty easy to work with.

Just pray that IWM doesn't try to follow Privateer Press' lead. Their plastic minis suck because they're using a cheap plastic in what looks like they're old metal molds. Terrible results, requires tons of clean up work to make them look good.
« Last Edit: 26 May 2011, 22:30:55 by MEP »
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JPArbiter

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Re: Plastic minis
« Reply #5 on: 27 May 2011, 14:43:04 »
Which is why the Thor and Loki were selected as well, because they have the same leg and hip assembly and similar arms, only the torsos and some specific weaponry is unique.
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MEP

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Re: Plastic minis
« Reply #6 on: 27 May 2011, 15:02:00 »
Which is why the Thor and Loki were selected as well, because they have the same leg and hip assembly and similar arms, only the torsos and some specific weaponry is unique.

If only they'd used that logic to make the Timber Wolf and the Mad Dog instead. They would've sold out of intro sets in 5 days instead of 10.  ;)
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Jal Phoenix

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Re: Plastic minis
« Reply #7 on: 27 May 2011, 17:15:57 »
I'd give a lot for more minis of the same incredible quality of those two plastics.  I still have to shake my head at the necessities of casting.  Metal minis - rubber mold.  Plastic minis - metal mold. 

Stormlion1

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Re: Plastic minis
« Reply #8 on: 27 May 2011, 18:09:34 »
I'd rather have metal over plastic any day of the week, theres something satisfying about the weight of a mech in ones hand.
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Fallen_Raven

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Re: Plastic minis
« Reply #9 on: 27 May 2011, 18:37:29 »
I wish they (whoever is in charge of such issues) could find a way to make high quality plastics as a yearly thing, an ever growing intro set. Two or three popular mechs every year would be great, and it would let new players get ahold of some quality minis for comparatively cheap.
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MEP

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Re: Plastic minis
« Reply #10 on: 27 May 2011, 19:29:10 »
I'd give a lot for more minis of the same incredible quality of those two plastics.  I still have to shake my head at the necessities of casting.  Metal minis - rubber mold.  Plastic minis - metal mold.

I grew up in a machine shop, the son of a tool and die maker, and I worked with injection molding machines through most of high school. The reason the molds need to be made of metal is due to the temperatures and pressures involved. In order to injection mold, you have to heat the plastic up to it's melting point and then squirt the plastic through a tiny little sprue hole at very high pressure. The pressure is due to the fact that the plastic starts cooling almost instantly after leaving the heated screw, so you have to fill the mold before the plastic gets hard enough that it starts to show stretch marks or just plain won't flow anymore.

The mold itself has sealed channels running through it that you pump an anti-freeze-like mixture through. This gives you total control over the mold's temperature (which is usually set somewhere just high enough to burn you if you touch it, but not high enough to burn you severely--this I know). Each shot takes somewhere between 5-15 seconds (quicker is better obviously, but you have to give the plastic time to completely solidify which is where most of the time goes). When the mold opens, there is a series of ejector pins on one side that are hydraulically pushed through the surface to force the part out (this part changes for some molds. Really high end products, a robotic arm drops down into the mold and sucks the part out gently. Much slower and much more costly). These pins must be milled such that they're flush with the surface of the mold cavity.

Aluminum molds are common these days, but they wear out fast because they change dimension too much under temperature change. Steel molds are better and hardened tool steel molds are the best, but also the most expensive because you either have to mill them to slightly the wrong dimensions and they'll shrink during the tempering process or you have actually cut into tool steel which isn't fun (and usually involves high voltage Electron Beam Machining which actually uses controlled high-voltage current to molecularly explode the material you're trying to remove).

So you can see that the relatively craftlike process of casting tin soldiers in silicone molds is pretty cheap by comparison. Injection molding only pays off because of it's speed and the fact that the molding itself is almost zero labor. The tooling is so expensive though that you have to make thousands of whatever you're molding for it to be worth it.
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Jal Phoenix

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Re: Plastic minis
« Reply #11 on: 27 May 2011, 20:16:37 »
Yes, I understand the process.  I just thought the disparity of needing metal to make plastic and plastic to make metal was funny. 

GRUD

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Re: Plastic minis
« Reply #12 on: 28 May 2011, 04:07:38 »
Yes, I understand the process.  I just thought the disparity of needing metal to make plastic and plastic to make metal was funny.


I never knew that's how each was made.  ;D  I agree JP, that's weird.  :D
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cavingjan

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Re: Plastic minis
« Reply #13 on: 28 May 2011, 09:33:10 »
If only they'd used that logic to make the Timber Wolf and the Mad Dog instead. They would've sold out of intro sets in 5 days instead of 10.  ;)

The Madcat and Vulture don't share anything other than legs so that is six more molds you have to make (torso, torso, left arm, left arm, right arm, right arm)[shared-legs]. The loki and thor share legs and one arm so to make both, you only have to make 3 extra molds (torso, torso, right arm, right arm)[shared-legs and left arm] Now the madcat IV and vulture IV are solid suggestion since they not only share legs but also both arms. You only have to make a second torso.

Besides, the Box Set is an inefficient way to get multiple copies of the HQ minis. They've been available on the BattleShop for months.

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Re: Plastic minis
« Reply #14 on: 28 May 2011, 09:55:31 »
The Madcat and Vulture don't share anything other than legs so that is six more molds you have to make (torso, torso, left arm, left arm, right arm, right arm)[shared-legs]. The loki and thor share legs and one arm so to make both, you only have to make 3 extra molds (torso, torso, right arm, right arm)[shared-legs and left arm]

Have you seen the plastic Thor and Loki?  Unless something has changed for the new box set, the Loki is composed of: Left Torso, Center Torso, Right Torso, SRM, Searchlight, ECM, Upper Left Arm, Upper Right Arm, Lower Left Arm, Lower Right Arm, Pelvis, Upper Left Leg, Upper Right Leg, Left Knee, Right Knee, Lower Left Leg, Lower Right Leg, 3 A-Pods and a Base.  That's a lot more than just a torso and arm.  It's three torsos, an arm, an SRM, a searchlight and an ECM. 

cavingjan

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Re: Plastic minis
« Reply #15 on: 28 May 2011, 10:37:15 »
No I hadn't. But really doesn't change all that much. You still have X amount of a mini that is the same as another mini and Y amount that is different and needs unique molds. Substitute in higher numbers but the effect is still the same: less shared parts = more money to create molds for that mini.

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Re: Plastic minis
« Reply #16 on: 29 May 2011, 23:36:29 »
I scoffed at the idea of plastic minis---even high quality minis.  Then I bought a buddy the new 25th Ann. Intro Box Set but I opened it up to check it's contents before giving it to him (it only had one heavy-duty card of compiled tables and not two as advertised).  I saw the high quality plastic minis and, frankly, I was impressed.  I wanted to steal them.  So I checked BattleCorps, but as already posted, only the Loki is available---so it goes.