TRO Succession Wars and Harmony Gold

[JadedFalcon]

basically a cross between what was done for Yamato:2199 (updated retelling of the story) and the major visual changes seen in the recent Star Trek feature films?

honestly that would be the smart thing for them.. but clearly they either aren't interested, can't conceive of it, or just flat out lack the funds to do so.

Something like that. The redesigns present in the live-action Transformers movies are another example of same story, different look and toy line. Part of my brain is still stuck on this and is trying to come up with a motive for HG (other than extortion).

[Maingunnery]

Something like that. The redesigns present in the live-action Transformers movies are another example of same story, different look and toy line. Part of my brain is still stuck on this and is trying to come up with a motive for HG (other than extortion).

Well HG seems to creatively lacking, maybe they were counting on the Movie deal to have others make the redesigns for them?

[Wrangler]

Realistate company pretending to be a media company which has likely fired most of it's media staff (i suspect) doesn't not bode well for something trying to create/expand the franchise.  Their media zombie.

[Kentares]

Well HG seems to creatively lacking, maybe they were counting on the Movie deal to have others make the redesigns for them?

I still think the timing of this has something to do with that.

[victor_shaw]

So from what I have seen on the Robotech side of this.
HG has tried on multiple occasions to relaunch the IP.
It seems while it appears to have made money the Shadow chronicles was not well received by the fandom, and only just made back its cost.
So they where hesitate to roll with Robotech: Shadow Rising.
So they first tried to make a little money with as little capital spend as possible on Robotech: Love Live Alive but failed to bring in enough.
Next they seem to have gotten the idea to crowed fund their next series Robotech Academy.
I personally think this was a proof of concept attempt to see if they could crowed fund Robotech: Shadow Rising.
Since it failed it seems that they dropped the shadow chronicles arc altogether.
Then you have the live action movie that has been in development hell for awhile now.
Add to this the failure of Robotech tactics, due to bad financial planing. and you have a IP in trouble.
With the licence up in a few years they have little to no time to restart the franchise with any level of quality that would appeases the fans.

So right now HG has a IP with little to no money making potential.
This is more then likely why they are going all in with the lawsuit.
I don't think they thought PGI/HBS would take it this far.
As to what they will get out of the lawsuit if they win, which at this point seems unlikely.
If they could have gotten PGI/HBS to back down or they won in court they could have gotten back their lawyers fees, and damages for the use of the images without permission.

As this case looks like its going south for HG, I doubt they will ever be able to get the live action movie off the ground as the licence stands.
IMHO their best bet is to go the Star Trek route and redesign the mech and modify the plot for the live action movie.
Since I don't see them being willing to put out the money if they are not guaranteed to get it back then I would say the live action movie is dead to.

[victor_shaw]

SO, was thinking about this the other night.
What will it mean to PGI/HBS/CGL if this case get thrown out.
None of these companies own the images, as they are owned by Big West.
So if this does get thrown out aren't they still in the same place as they would have to get permission from Big west to use these designs or have the them approve any deviations from them?

[sadlerbw]

It will mean no one is currently suing them over the images they have made. That’s it. It doesn’t prevent Big West or anyone else who might feel like it from suing in the future. Actually, nothing prevents any other companies from doing that right now either. However, so far no one other than HG seems to feel that what The BattleTech family of companies are doing is derivative of their IP, so the BT companies would likely feel free to continue on with their new, original designs.

[ANS Kamas P81]

they would have to get permission from Big west to use these designs or have the them approve any deviations from them?

Except that, as far as Battletech is concerned, those original Big West designs have had a retgone done on them, and the new artwork that we're getting is "what they looked like all along."  It shows a good-faith attempt to redress the situation by using new artwork that is not copyrighted by Big West, while still having art that matches the stats - and there will always be similarities in "warrior robots" that you just can't get past.  When you want a warrior robot with a missile launcher on it and some big guns for arms, well...you get it. 

Scenes a faire is what Leonard French called it a while back.  Things that are going to be visually similar just because it's the basic nature of the thing.  A depiction of a battleship, for example, is going to have turrets with guns on it, a general slim 'football shape' to its lines, and various towers for control of the ship, radios, radars, exhausts, and so on.  A tank, meanwhile, will generally have one big gun on it, maybe a smaller one next to it, a box shape overall, tracks, and look very heavily armored.  A humanoid warrior robot is going to have two legs, two arms, a head, a body, and guns all over it in various logical places (usually) whether they're cannons or lasers or missiles.  Similarity in design isn't always copyright infringement, if there's obvious function dictating form.

[klarg1]

SO, was thinking about this the other night.
What will it mean to PGI/HBS/CGL if this case get thrown out.
None of these companies own the images, as they are owned by Big West.
So if this does get thrown out aren't they still in the same place as they would have to get permission from Big west to use these designs or have the them approve any deviations from them?

The theoretical purpose of the NuSeen artwork is to be distinct enough from the Macross / Dougram images that they avoid this sort of issue. If this case breaks in favor of PGI/CGL/HBS, the expectation would be to move forward with them, and never speak of these problems again.

That does not prevent anybody from claiming infringement and suing, but nothing prevents that, no matter the artwork. The goal can only be to be "distinct enough that nobody complains".

[Tymers Realm]

The goal can only be to be "distinct enough that nobody complains".

And personally, I think the Classic art does just that. While there is a lot of resemblance between the Unseens and Classics, there's enough differences to make the argument work in CGL's favor.

[wolfspider]

And personally, I think the Classic art does just that. While there is a lot of resemblance between the Unseens and Classics, there's enough differences to make the argument work in CGL's favor.

That is what I am hoping for!  ;D

[ColBosch]

That does not prevent anybody from claiming infringement and suing, but nothing prevents that, no matter the artwork. The goal can only be to be "distinct enough that nobody complains".

If the case is dismissed with prejudice on the grounds that HG doesn't have the copyrights, then it sure as hell does stop the lawsuits.

[Skyth]

If the case is dismissed with prejudice on the grounds that HG doesn't have the copyrights, then it sure as hell does stop the lawsuits.

Only from HG.  Anyone else can file a lawsuit claiming infringement.  Including you.

[ColBosch]

Only from HG.  Anyone else can file a lawsuit claiming infringement.  Including you.

*sigh* Seriously? Does this sort of pedantic wordplay really add anything to the conversation? Yes, you are technically correct, but without any evidence in my support I would be thrown out of court rather quickly.

[Netzilla]

Well, it would have been a more relevant point if he'd said "Big West" rather than "you".

[Tai Dai Cultist]

*sigh* Seriously? Does this sort of pedantic wordplay really add anything to the conversation? Yes, you are technically correct, but without any evidence in my support I would be thrown out of court rather quickly.

I think it also serves the point that even (arguably) HG's claim is ridiculous as well, and yet still that's taking a while to resolve.

[monbvol]

It is taking so long because there is enough room in Harmony Gold's undeniable distribution rights that they could potentially still have a case.

[ANS Kamas P81]

No, it's taking so long because they only hear these kinds of cases two days out of the month, and they don't have a case.  If they did they wouldn't need to keep filing a new version of it each time someone puts up a defense; it's literally asking the judge for a do-over when you make an Amended or Second Amended complaint.  And their distribution rights do not cover the 41 character designs they claim as copyright, very simply: because those copyrights were held by Big West and not Tatsunoko, therefore Tatsunoko could not license them to Harmony Gold, therefore Harmony Gold does not own the copyright.  They may be able to distribute Macross and Robotech all they like, but they have no legal standing to claim ownership of the art like they are.

[sadlerbw]

*sigh* Seriously? Does this sort of pedantic wordplay really add anything to the conversation? Yes, you are technically correct, but without any evidence in my support I would be thrown out of court rather quickly.

Lemme hit ya with some nuance: Lets say the case does get dismissed with prejudice. But why exactly was it dismissed? PGI lists 15 affirmative defenses here. Depending which ones were accepted as the reason for dismissal, it would change the impact. If it was dismissed because HG doesn't hold the copyrights, then the ACTUAL copyright holders would not in any way be prevented from deciding they think the classics look too much like their stuff. If it was dismissed because PGI was found not to infringe, then Big West and Tatsunoko's ability to bring the same complaint would be affected. If it was found not to infringe due to scenes a faire, then those two plus whomever owns Gundam, Transformers, and any other warrior robot IP would have their chances of winning if they brought a case diminished.

The only ones who could actually be prohibited from filing this complaint or one substantially similar is HG. I know it FEELS pedantic, but this is legal stuff...it's all minutiae and pedantry! I do agree that the statement about even you being able to sue wasn't exactly making the right point. The point is, it lowers the chances of another lawsuit from someone who isn't HG, but doesn't outright prevent it.

[pheonixstorm]

Lemme hit ya with some nuance: Lets say the case does get dismissed with prejudice. But why exactly was it dismissed?

A dismissal or summary judgement would be based on IF HG OWNS THE COPYRIGHT. Everything beyond that would be settled at trial. Your nuance quickly falls apart if this does not go to the end. Having the case dismissed is not the same as having an actual judgement rendered. The judgement in this case being do the images violate copyright. While the PGI art is the least like the original the same cannot be said for the CGL art, which IMO is not a violation. The case against HBS over the art claimed is even less likely to be seen as infringement but HG had to do something to bring up the old FASA settlement...

The answers to the SAC are not the same as an actual motion for summary judgement or dismissal.

[sadlerbw]

You are correct. Dismissed was the wrong word...sort of. Dismissed due to summary judgement is a much narrower thing. I got ahead of myself!

[Phobos101]

So I just stumbled upon this:

http://thisrobotechthing.tumblr.com/post/77369766765/say-hello-to-some-of-the-more-unloved-designs-that

which I thought was a pretty ironic (in the current context) effort by HG and friends back in the day to circumvent the limitations of their licence...

[glitterboy2098]

So I just stumbled upon this:

http://thisrobotechthing.tumblr.com/post/77369766765/say-hello-to-some-of-the-more-unloved-designs-that

which I thought was a pretty ironic (in the current context) effort by HG and friends back in the day to circumvent the limitations of their licence...

given these were created prior to the japanese court rulings they were not created for legal reasons. rather, tatsunoko had convinced HG to redesign all the macross stuff so that tatsunoko could pull a "reverse robotech".. take the animation and recut it with all new japanese dialog to create a seperate show for release in japan. this is likely one reason the Alpha fighter actually only made a limited appearance in the pilot, probably to let them cut those scenes and insert some other mecha to avoid the MOSPEADA connection.

the Mac III actually has since appeared in the newly created sequences for the Love Live Alive video. specifically it appears in the background fighting invid as the ASC and UEEF attempt to escape earth at the start of the invid invasion.

and yes, the 'jaw' on the Phalanx/spartan thing opened up to reveal even more missiles. the shoulder boxes on the Tomahawk/Excalibur and Defender/Raider-X ones were also missile launchers, as were the leg boxes on the Spartan/Gladiator.

[Luciora]

Logistics be damned!  Fire everything and then run away and hide as you need reloading!

[pheonixstorm]

So I just stumbled upon this:

http://thisrobotechthing.tumblr.com/post/77369766765/say-hello-to-some-of-the-more-unloved-designs-that

which I thought was a pretty ironic (in the current context) effort by HG and friends back in the day to circumvent the limitations of their licence...

Hehe played with those designs a lot when I played the RoboTech RPG. The Sentinels stuff was... interesting.

[klarg1]

Well, it would have been a more relevant point if he'd said "Big West" rather than "you".

True, and it is what I was trying to hint at in my previous comment, but it seems extremely unlikely. Big West hasn't shown any animosity towards Battletech in the past, that I am aware of, and CGL seems to be making a pretty public, and (IMO) good-faith effort to move towards distinctive art and style.

I was, admittedly, being pedantic to avoid guaranteeing a future I cannot predict, but I think we would be in good shape, if we got past this immediate hurdle.

[victor_shaw]

True, and it is what I was trying to hint at in my previous comment, but it seems extremely unlikely. Big West hasn't shown any animosity towards Battletech in the past, that I am aware of, and CGL seems to be making a pretty public, and (IMO) good-faith effort to move towards distinctive art and style.

I was, admittedly, being pedantic to avoid guaranteeing a future I cannot predict, but I think we would be in good shape, if we got past this immediate hurdle.

So I guess my question would be would it be better for them to just ignore Big West, or to step-up and present there images to BW and get them to sign-off on them being different enough?

[sadlerbw]

There is no reason to send out images you have made to ask a company if they think they would infringe or not. Why? Because as a copyright holder there is zero reason to ever say, “those images are fine.” No one is going to give you permission to make anything. At best they might say that anyone who wants to create derivative works should seek a license and ignore your question.

[Daemion]

So I just stumbled upon this:

http://thisrobotechthing.tumblr.com/post/77369766765/say-hello-to-some-of-the-more-unloved-designs-that

which I thought was a pretty ironic (in the current context) effort by HG and friends back in the day to circumvent the limitations of their licence...

Huh. The MAC III kinda makes me think of the Vanquisher.

[Patton1945]

Except that, as far as Battletech is concerned, those original Big West designs have had a retgone done on them, and the new artwork that we're getting is "what they looked like all along."  It shows a good-faith attempt to redress the situation by using new artwork that is not copyrighted by Big West, while still having art that matches the stats - and there will always be similarities in "warrior robots" that you just can't get past.  When you want a warrior robot with a missile launcher on it and some big guns for arms, well...you get it. 

Scenes a faire is what Leonard French called it a while back.  Things that are going to be visually similar just because it's the basic nature of the thing.  A depiction of a battleship, for example, is going to have turrets with guns on it, a general slim 'football shape' to its lines, and various towers for control of the ship, radios, radars, exhausts, and so on.  A tank, meanwhile, will generally have one big gun on it, maybe a smaller one next to it, a box shape overall, tracks, and look very heavily armored.  A humanoid warrior robot is going to have two legs, two arms, a head, a body, and guns all over it in various logical places (usually) whether they're cannons or lasers or missiles.  Similarity in design isn't always copyright infringement, if there's obvious function dictating form.

To build on this point, what it feels like HG is doing is acting a lot like "Ford suing GM because GM cars have 4 wheels, an aerodynamic body, and a dedicated round wheel used for steering."

Actually, for that matter, if visual copyright worked the way HG is claiming, why DON'T car companies Sue each other like that?  There's cars from competing companies who are much, much closer looking than some of the HG complaints (assuming what I saw on Reddit was accurate).