BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Universe => Clan Chatterweb => Topic started by: Crow on 02 April 2017, 11:42:59
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Just wait for our latest plan to reach fruition... the warrior caste will fall, and the scientists shall rule the galaxy!
Muahahahaha! For Science! :D
Are there any other Society operatives out there, or did they all die in the Reavings?
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I like to think that there are other branches left.
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Same as with secret WoB bunkers still hiden, scatered around entire Inner Sphere.
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Aperture Science: The Society
We do what we must
because we can
For the good of all of us.
Except the ones who are dead.
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Although some of their methods were morally questionable, I kind of wish the Society had succeeded in transforming the Homeworlds. I think the result would certainly have been more interesting than the Clan Classic factions that now rule the Homeworlds. (Although hopefully they will evolve into something more interesting, too.)
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I always figured they shot there military bolt but there was outposts beyond Clan space and in the Inner Sphere based Clans that were never discovered or rooted out.
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I like to think that there are other branches left.
The IS clans (aside from the falcons) probably still have Society branches hidden inside them. though since the non-falcon IS clans have been giving their scientists more reign to be innovative, i doubt there is much push for a takeover.
and IMO the homeworld clan's probably still have Society remnants in their Science castes. even after the purges, there is little way that you could remove all the influence. (short of genocide of the entire caste and starting over from raw untrained recruits) they'll just be much weaker and far more covert for a long time. heck, you'd have to kill more than just all the scientists even.. you'd also have to kill all the laborors that dealt with the scientist caste to any degree (or worked with those who did). all the warriors that interacted with the scientist caste for any length of time. etc. pretty much you'd have to wipe out most of population in general to be sure you got every possible person who could spread the seed of the Society and its ideals.
IMO the Society is a bit like Marvel's Hydra.. you'll never be able to get rid of it completely, because it is all pervasive and hides in plain sight within the social structure of the clans themselves. subverting any existing status quo to their own ends. all you can do is cut off whatever head rears up into public view.
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Although some of their methods were morally questionable, I kind of wish the Society had succeeded in transforming the Homeworlds. I think the result would certainly have been more interesting than the Clan Classic factions that now rule the Homeworlds. (Although hopefully they will evolve into something more interesting, too.)
I couldn't agree with this more. It would have made for both a more interesting contrast with the Jihad and the IS Clans, and a more interesting looming threat.
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Also, this thread really has my itching to create a badass Society cluster to run through a WoR campaign.
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Hello! It is like fate that I saw this thread pop up! I like the idea of the subsurface efforts of the Society and their struggle in dealing with a Warrior Caste based system. I wish there had been a little bit more to it all when the Society came out in full force. I am sure that there are remnants of their existence in small pockets hidden in various Clans, waiting for an opportunity to rebuild and continue their efforts.
I have just wrapped up working on a Clan Burrock force, and wanted to make a compliment to it with a Society-based mech composition!
I am currently trying to figure it all out. The whole idea is to create a force that I can play on its own, max of 400pts in Alpha Strike. Or the force can be fielded alongside or mixed with elements from my already created/painted Burrock. Does the below strike a good balance? I read the Septicemia is the workhorse of the Society, so I figure it would be a mainstay. The Osteon and Cephalus would be much more infrequent. Protomechs seem to fit the Society style as well, so a trio of Sprites to add some long ranged punch alongside the capability of the Osteon. The Cephalus would be a great spotter for anyone looking to toss indirect fire. I need to adjust the points some more later, by upping/lowering skills. But this feels like a good base.
Un Prime:
*Septicemia-D-Z @50pts Skirmisher/Skill3
Trey Alpha:
*Septicemia-E @50pts Skirmisher/Skill4
*Septicemia-A-Z @58pts Brawler/Skill4
*Septicemia-D @38pts Skirmisher/Skill4
Trey Beta:
*Osteon-Prime @63pts Juggernaut/Skill5
*Cephalus-Prime @29pts Scout/Skill3
*Sprite Ultraheavy Protomech x3 @60pts Missile Boat/Skill4
Total: 348pts
If I am in the wrong place to post this, please let me know and I will remove it. Thanks!
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For the LAST time, the Society is DEAD.
Who are we? We are most certainly NOT the Society. Nope. Nada. We have never had any contact with the Society. In fact what is this "Society" you are talking about? Is it some kind of social club?
What was that? No that was most definitely no a laboratory that you saw. What is it then? Uhm...It is our...uhm... distillery...yes it is a distillery. It is where we make beer for drinking.
You want to try some? Well it is very strong. It has a powerful kick to it. You still want to try some? Ah...sure right this way.
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An overt attack from the Society is not even needed. Just manufacture some data.
"Umm yes it seems like one of the Society scientist that you killed had already seeded about half the warriors with not named genes."
Sit back with popcorn.
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For the LAST time, the Society is DEAD.
Who are we? We are most certainly NOT the Society. Nope. Nada. We have never had any contact with the Society. In fact what is this "Society" you are talking about? Is it some kind of social club?
What was that? No that was most definitely no a laboratory that you saw. What is it then? Uhm...It is our...uhm... distillery...yes it is a distillery. It is where we make beer for drinking.
You want to try some? Well it is very strong. It has a powerful kick to it. You still want to try some? Ah...sure right this way.
Exactly. In some ways the Society's "death" allows it to work in even greater secrecy.
An overt attack from the Society is not even needed. Just manufacture some data.
"Umm yes it seems like one of the Society scientist that you killed had already seeded about half the warriors with not named genes."
Sit back with popcorn.
It's all about the false flags, baby!
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I always figured they shot there military bolt but there was outposts beyond Clan space and in the Inner Sphere based Clans that were never discovered or rooted out.
Yeah, there are quite a few references in WoR of Bandit or Society jumpships getting away or misjumping...
The IS clans (aside from the falcons) probably still have Society branches hidden inside them. though since the non-falcon IS clans have been giving their scientists more reign to be innovative, i doubt there is much push for a takeover.
and IMO the homeworld clan's probably still have Society remnants in their Science castes. even after the purges, there is little way that you could remove all the influence. (short of genocide of the entire caste and starting over from raw untrained recruits) they'll just be much weaker and far more covert for a long time. heck, you'd have to kill more than just all the scientists even.. you'd also have to kill all the laborors that dealt with the scientist caste to any degree (or worked with those who did). all the warriors that interacted with the scientist caste for any length of time. etc. pretty much you'd have to wipe out most of population in general to be sure you got every possible person who could spread the seed of the Society and its ideals.
IMO the Society is a bit like Marvel's Hydra.. you'll never be able to get rid of it completely, because it is all pervasive and hides in plain sight within the social structure of the clans themselves. subverting any existing status quo to their own ends. all you can do is cut off whatever head rears up into public view.
I think that the best place to look is in the Barrens, or what used to be the Overwacht province of the OA. And of course, the Deep Periphery, where all scary things come from >:D
Quite honestly, some of the comments in WoR/WoR:Supp, lead me to believe that some remaining Society members might have joined Genecaste. Or who knows, maybe the Society was a Genecaste plot the entire time?
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The IS clans (aside from the falcons) probably still have Society branches hidden inside them. though since the non-falcon IS clans have been giving their scientists more reign to be innovative, i doubt there is much push for a takeover.
and IMO the homeworld clan's probably still have Society remnants in their Science castes. even after the purges, there is little way that you could remove all the influence. (short of genocide of the entire caste and starting over from raw untrained recruits) they'll just be much weaker and far more covert for a long time. heck, you'd have to kill more than just all the scientists even.. you'd also have to kill all the laborors that dealt with the scientist caste to any degree (or worked with those who did). all the warriors that interacted with the scientist caste for any length of time. etc. pretty much you'd have to wipe out most of population in general to be sure you got every possible person who could spread the seed of the Society and its ideals.
IMO the Society is a bit like Marvel's Hydra.. you'll never be able to get rid of it completely, because it is all pervasive and hides in plain sight within the social structure of the clans themselves. subverting any existing status quo to their own ends. all you can do is cut off whatever head rears up into public view.
I can really see that.
But I meant with branches, as in research branches, such as Genetic, Armament, Space, and Conventional sciences. We know that a lot of ground installations for Genetic & Armament (Mech/Proto) were lost. However their space facilities might be completely untouched (Newgrange YardShips from the exodus perhaps?). And we haven't seen any new vehicle designs, those might not have been ready.
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I am currently trying to figure it all out. The whole idea is to create a force that I can play on its own, max of 400pts in Alpha Strike. Or the force can be fielded alongside or mixed with elements from my already created/painted Burrock. Does the below strike a good balance? I read the Septicemia is the workhorse of the Society, so I figure it would be a mainstay. The Osteon and Cephalus would be much more infrequent. Protomechs seem to fit the Society style as well, so a trio of Sprites to add some long ranged punch alongside the capability of the Osteon. The Cephalus would be a great spotter for anyone looking to toss indirect fire. I need to adjust the points some more later, by upping/lowering skills. But this feels like a good base.
Un Prime:
*Septicemia-D-Z @50pts Skirmisher/Skill3
Trey Alpha:
*Septicemia-E @50pts Skirmisher/Skill4
*Septicemia-A-Z @58pts Brawler/Skill4
*Septicemia-D @38pts Skirmisher/Skill4
Trey Beta:
*Osteon-Prime @63pts Juggernaut/Skill5
*Cephalus-Prime @29pts Scout/Skill3
*Sprite Ultraheavy Protomech x3 @60pts Missile Boat/Skill4
Total: 348pts
Looks nice! While the Septicemia is the most common Mech used by Society forces, you aren't necessarily limited to them, either. I'd check out the Stormcrow Z, Viper Z, Summoner Z, Timberwolf Z, Savage Coyote Z and Turkina Z if I were you. You can also look into stuffing a few Royal mechs in to round out your point value
Quite honestly, I think that you should use more Protomechs and vehicles, if possible, but that's just how I play Society forces. I haven't played AS, but the feeling I get is that Protomechs didn't transfer well to AS rules due to their low armor.
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But I meant with branches, as in research branches, such as Genetic, Armament, Space, and Conventional sciences. We know that a lot of ground installations for Genetic & Armament (Mech/Proto) were lost. However their space facilities might be completely untouched (Newgrange YardShips from the exodus perhaps?). And we haven't seen any new vehicle designs, those might not have been ready.
I get this feeling, too. Sure, post-WoR, any non-warrior possessing Society-related knowledge was subject to Annihilation, but as we all know, knowledge wants to be free. And what made the Society truly dangerous is, in some senses ineradicable 1) e.g. "the Society is an idea" and 2) the data to create mutagenic virotherapy, the genetic coding for a corrupted trueborn line, targeted viral plagues or the SLOT virus can all fit on a flash drive.
There was significant Raven involvement in the Society. Ravens like orbital factories, and also didn't have time to pack up everything before they left the Homeworlds. The Basilisk Q was developed (and possibly produced?) in a station above Lum and the Ferro Lamellar for the Osteon didn't just come from nowhere. To heavily infer here, I'm really surprised if the Society didn't have orbital factories hidden somewhere in or around the Kerensky Cluster, quietly pumping out a slow stream of Minotaur Zs and the like. Really the only problems are 1) labor (which you can mostly automate, anyway) and 2) avoiding detection from Watch patrols.
I really doubt that we'd see new vehicle designs aside from the slap-dash jury-rig a Nova CEWS on whatever was left in the Brian Caches past 300 years. I don't think that the Society had time given the timetable of their rebelion. The put most of their effort into the Ceph-Sept-Ost trio and the 3rd gen Protos. Vehicles mostly serve as meat shields and cannon fodder and were only used after their invasion of Babylon.
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I really doubt that we'd see new vehicle designs aside from the slap-dash jury-rig a Nova CEWS on whatever was left in the Brian Caches past 300 years. I don't think that the Society had time given the timetable of their rebelion. The put most of their effort into the Ceph-Sept-Ost trio and the 3rd gen Protos. Vehicles mostly serve as meat shields and cannon fodder and were only used after their invasion of Babylon.
That is the difference between that they wanted to do (wait longer and prepare further) and what they were forced to do (rebel). Mechs and Protos were clearly given priority for development, and during WoR they were rushed into combat. But if they were true to their long term goals, then they were likely also busy developing vehicles, fighters, etc. However such units would be on a lower priority and definitely not be ready for production when the WoR hit.
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That is the difference between that they wanted to do (wait longer and prepare further) and what they were forced to do (rebel). Mechs and Protos were clearly given priority for development, and during WoR they were rushed into combat. But if they were true to their long term goals, then they were likely also busy developing vehicles, fighters, etc. However such units would be on a lower priority and definitely not be ready for production when the WoR hit.
For me, the Society MO/warfare style doesn't specifically require combined arms or units of all types and having new combat units per se, it's more about 1) does this defeat Clan warriors and 2) can we produce enough of this unit to make a difference in secrecy? Protomechs, genetically modified PBI and SLDF vintage pretty much fill that nice. Mostly, I'm pissed off that the Society didn't get that much access to BA, but it's not the end of the world.
I think the Bashkir Z, Batu Z and Sabutai Z do a pretty good job of covering the bases as far as fighters go. What more can you want than iHL/iATM spam?
There's really just one (new) vehicle design that I can justify: the iATM Carrier. 3xiATM12 and Nova CEWS w/ Ferro Lamellar.
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For me, the Society MO/warfare style doesn't specifically require combined arms or units of all types and having new combat units per se, it's more about 1) does this defeat Clan warriors and 2) can we produce enough of this unit to make a difference in secrecy? Protomechs, genetically modified PBI and SLDF vintage pretty much fill that nice. Mostly, I'm pissed off that the Society didn't get that much access to BA, but it's not the end of the world.
I think the Bashkir Z, Batu Z and Sabutai Z do a pretty good job of covering the bases as far as fighters go. What more can you want than iHL/iATM spam?
FerroLamellar, XXL engines, etc. The frames are a bit outdated compared to how far the Society could go. And they would need every advantage they could get for their end plan. Therefore I think that a lot of the Z refits and SLDF vehicles were improvised solutions.
There's really just one (new) vehicle design that I can justify: the iATM Carrier. 3xiATM12 and Nova CEWS w/ Ferro Lamellar.
[drool] [drool]
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There's really just one (new) vehicle design that I can justify: the iATM Carrier. 3xiATM12 and Nova CEWS w/ Ferro Lamellar.
There's not even that many Clan vehicles carrying ATMs. Just Mars, Zorya, and Stantovit variants among the Golden Century/older designs. And if they were converted to iATMs, only the Stantovit really has the speed to exploit specialty and HE munitions.
Later Spheroid Clan vehicle designs emerge with ATMs like the Balac and Hephaestus C, but that doesn't help the Society.
Among SLDF designs, the Rhino and Chaparral are the only dedicated missile carriers with obvious iATM conversion potential, but are again too slow.
However, the Kanga, with its LRM rack and SRM pack, would be a good candidate for mobile iATM platform. Maybe a plasma cannon could replace the AC. A jumping hover tank seems like the kind of disruptive, high-tech solution the Society would favor.
It's too bad there are no canon vehicle designs with Society toys. It's weird to field a trey consisting of one Septecemia, three Society protomechs, and seven SLDF tanks.
Some quad BA that could be piloted by non-Elementals would have been nifty, too.
FWIW...
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Looks nice! While the Septicemia is the most common Mech used by Society forces, you aren't necessarily limited to them, either. I'd check out the Stormcrow Z, Viper Z, Summoner Z, Timberwolf Z, Savage Coyote Z and Turkina Z if I were you. You can also look into stuffing a few Royal mechs in to round out your point value
Quite honestly, I think that you should use more Protomechs and vehicles, if possible, but that's just how I play Society forces. I haven't played AS, but the feeling I get is that Protomechs didn't transfer well to AS rules due to their low armor.
Thanks for the look! The thing is I could essentially create two Septs with the above, since this Force could be mixed with another two stars of a Clan force(still deciding whether to go Coyote or Burrock). I have a Timber Wolf, Summoner, Viper, Stormcrow, and a Savage Coyote sitting here in the house. I will have to mull over it anvit though!
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There was significant Raven involvement in the Society.
Anyone remember how much the Ravens purged their Scientist caste after they moved...?
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Anyone remember how much the Ravens purged their Scientist caste after they moved...?
From what I gathered in WoR, little to none at all. The Watch report claimed that there was no Society presence in the OA/RA. The Ravens were pretty beat after they fled the Homeworlds and I don't think that they were in a position to reave some of their scientists even if they wanted to. This leads me to believe that the Raven Alliance is the best hiding spot for the Society at present...
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From what I gathered in WoR, little to none at all...
That is a pretty nice analysis of their situation plus possibilities. Noting the Ravens as potential for a force to build on, plus I can explore some Aerotech, which I haven't really gotten into as of yet!
The potential for Society elements to exist are as high as before I feel. Just because they haven't come to light or are not in plain sight, just gives them a better chance at hiding in the shadows and rebuilding.
I think the Socoety idea is a good idea and can continue to be cause for chaos and internal strife within the Homeworld Clans as well as spreading like a cancer to the IS Clans in certain situations.
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"The Society - planning a future from safe spaces, but future among the Clans does not know safe spaces."
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"The Society - planning a future from safe spaces, but future among the Clans does not know safe spaces."
*Triggered!*
Well, actually... we have drugged up warriors 'improved' with mutagenic virotherapy to do that for us...
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What you need is more Royal tanks and older BA - PA(L)s in your units. Followed by Proto and Mech forces. Lastly some Aero and older model droppers to carry the day.
TT
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Well, actually... we have drugged up warriors 'improved' with mutagenic virotherapy to do that for us...
"I wanted a Catgirl but she got no cuddly pelt, but sharp scales."
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Is the society dead dead or BT faction dead? As in a remnant escaped and could rise again?
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There's a mention of Invasion-corridor Society elements, but only an offhanded remark. And well, it's not like the Clans ever successfully exterminated the Bandit Caste despite trying, so survivors can still be out there.
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Besides the Royals and the few IS -( C ) class refits, do you think the Society would have any of the SLDF in Exile tech, pre Operation: Klondike?
Including the Pentagon tech and pre-clan versions of them.
TT
( By IS -( C ) I mean examples: Warhammer-6R ( C ) and Marauder-3R ( C ). Also note that the Marauder-2R is an upgrade of the 1R Royal. )
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I don't see why not - I am sure a multitude of sins where covered by them excuse of " we holding on to this for testing"
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With sufficient amount of time I would assume that they would have refurbished them into Warhammer Z's. ;)
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Too bad they never developed an Improved Arrow IV, or an Arrow V.
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A4 only weighs about 12 tons + ammo.
TT
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A4 only weighs about 12 tons + ammo.
TT
Longer range would be nice, 12 maps perhaps >:D
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A4 Cluster Improved EMP munition. >:D
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A4 only weighs about 12 tons + ammo.
TT
?? Improved doesn't mean less weight, all the improved versions of existing equipment expands functionality, usually with some trade off. For example:
iFASCAM - instead of 1 hex of 30, choose 3 consecutive hexes of 10
iGuided - reduce range for more single target damage
iAOE - reduce range for more AOE damage
and maybe the improved launcher takes up more crits.
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Would Field Artillery Scaterable Remote Senors be useful? The CEWS ought to be able to read them no problem right?
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Would Field Artillery Scaterable Remote Senors be useful? The CEWS ought to be able to read them no problem right?
Remote sensors weight almost nothing, so let them be combined with a normal mine field, making an interactive minefield.
Mines: An enemy Mech weighting at 60 tons just stepped into the minefield, you want us to detonate?
You: Wait for it.....
Mines: He is at the center
You: Detonate!
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iArrow V Cluster -- Like FASCAM, but instead of releasing mines, fires LB-X bomblets for critting and AI damage. Use with Arrow IV Homing is obvious.
iArrow V Top Attack -- Like Arrow IV Homing, but rolls on the punch hit location table. Probably reduce damage to 10 points so probability of decapitation/cockpit kill is not too high/automatic.
iATM Top Attack -- Rolls on the punch hit location table. Maybe halves damage so probability of decapitation/cockpit kill is not too high/automatic. (Per ER 2750 and other fluff, the SLDF should have had "Headhunter" LRMs and SRMs with this capability.)
FWIW...
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Would Field Artillery Scaterable Remote Senors be useful? The CEWS ought to be able to read them no problem right?
Yes. With the Nova CEWS' active probe capabilities, the Osteon and Septicemia should be able to monitor up to two sensors at a time at least.
It's actually a little surprising that remote sensor dispensers made no appearance on any canon Society designs given the indirect fire capabilities of iATMs. Indirectly firing iATMs and LRMs (like from the Sprite) from behind intervening terrain (and falling back through more sensors and terrain) would have been a good tactic to preserve Society hardware and upset/frustrate Clan Warrior assumptions.
Even if the indirect fire didn't connect often, Clan Warriors would be tempted to waste shots on the sensors, helping take fire away from Society protos and other Society units in the Warriors' faces.
Society should also have made extensive use of LRM Thunder, and reverse-engineered the Leaguers' TAG-following LRMs. Maybe Narc, too.
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What about genuine multi-purpose LRM ammo, so that they have to separate torpedo launcher pods?
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I mean you can always design a remote sensor layer using the support vehicle rules as long as you're not planning on using it in direct combat, right? Nobody is going to call that munchy...
Asymmetric warfare is the name of the game.
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Yeah, but missiles are cooler.
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Yeah, but missiles are cooler.
Sure, I suppose. But aesthetics isn't going to win battles.
The Society did not shy away from using mines, missiles, artillery, indirect fire, booby traps, smoke, ambushes, physical attacks, etc. (to say nothing of computer and genetic viruses and mutant ablative foot troops) in order to win.
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Sure, I suppose. But aesthetics isn't going to win battles.
The Society did not shy away from using mines, missiles, artillery, indirect fire, booby traps, smoke, ambushes, physical attacks, etc. (to say nothing of computer and genetic viruses and mutant ablative foot troops) in order to win.
Let me rephrase:
Missles, as the delivery system for such components as remote senors and mines being fired indirectly by an improved Arrow IV launcher, are cooler.
And quite possibly more effective and efficient than designing a vehicle that cant perform in combat and needs a multi person crew that needs to be trained.
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Let me rephrase:
Missles, as the delivery system for such components as remote senors and mines being fired indirectly by an improved Arrow IV launcher, are cooler.
And quite possibly more effective and efficient than designing a vehicle that cant perform in combat and needs a multi person crew that needs to be trained.
What do you think is the best TAGing platform available to the Society? The Cephalus Prime, maybe?
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What about genuine multi-purpose LRM ammo, so that they have to separate torpedo launcher pods?
Well a little fluff and some subtraction of Missile per tonnage, we can get:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Multi-Purpose_Missile (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Multi-Purpose_Missile)
2x Weight per shot
SO meaning :
120 LRM = 1 ton NOW: 60 LRM = 1 ton
100 SRM = 1 ton NOW: 50 SRM = 1ton
or just halve the ammo per ton to use dual-purpose Missile/Torpedo ammo.
TT
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Now which ones can deploy from unxer water and hit land/air targets?
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Now which ones can deploy from unxer water and hit land/air targets?
The dual purpose missiles from truetanker are likely your best bet.
An ammo reduction is a hefty penalty, I myself was thinking of single-purpose (Torpedo mode only) with a c-bill penalty (x 1.5).
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given there are dual-environment missiles already around for BA, mech compatible versions seem reasonable. and they would seem to fit the hit-and-run, dirty tricks approach of the Society.
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Crazy thought...
Canon indicates that some Clan totem animals, like the Jade Falcon and Smoke Jaguar, were genetically modified by the Scientist Caste (or their SLDF forbears). It would have been interesting to see the Society take this work to the next level and turn the Clan totem animals against the Warrior Caste.
Fire Mandrills and Ice Hellions big and fast enough to knock Elemental battle armor around. Burrocks big and aggressive enough to spit armor-corroding mucus at battle armor and mechs and swallow Elementals whole (a la Dune). Ghost Bears big enough to knock protomechs to the ground. Diamond Sharks big enough to compromise the environmental sealing on battlemechs in underwater combat. Etc.
Not terribly practical on the TW battlefield, but certainly interesting for AToW. Maybe some nutty Society members with genetic terraforming backgrounds could have developed such monstrosities as a psychological weapon to be wielded against the Warrior Caste more than anything else.
FWIW...
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Has anyone looked at whether the AToW bonuses from Society mutagenic virotherapies and/or combat drugs (WoR, p. 219-223) could have an impact on TW infantry stats? I'm not familiar enough with AToW to do any conversions off the top of my head and am hoping that someone has done my homework for me.
For example, would the "Exoskeleton Adaptation" mutation grant a mutant Society infantryman two points of TW damage, instead of one (before adding armor kits, PALs, or battle armor suits)? Maybe in combination with the "Robust Augmentation" or "Muscle Enhancement" mutations and/or the "Focus" or "Rage-C" drugs?
Would the "Articulation Augmentation" mutation grant a mutant Society infantryman a TW gunnery skill bonus? Maybe in combination with the "Feralize" drug?
And could the "Fatigue Resistance" mutation grant a mutant Society infantryman an additional hex of TW movement? Maybe in combination with the "Qwikstim-C" or "Rage-C" drugs?
Maybe not. Even an Elemental is just another infantryman when outside his battle armor suit under TW rules. But I was hoping that some of these mutations and drugs are extreme enough to affect the much less granular TW infantry stats.
Would be a shame if these mutations and drugs only affect AToW play and have no impact on TW beyond whether quad protomechs can be piloted or not.
Thanks much for any help.
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Has anyone looked at whether the AToW bonuses from Society mutagenic virotherapies and/or combat drugs (WoR, p. 219-223) could have an impact on TW infantry stats? I'm not familiar enough with AToW to do any conversions off the top of my head and am hoping that someone has done my homework for me.
For example, would the "Exoskeleton Adaptation" mutation grant a mutant Society infantryman two points of TW damage, instead of one (before adding armor kits, PALs, or battle armor suits)? Maybe in combination with the "Robust Augmentation" or "Muscle Enhancement" mutations and/or the "Focus" or "Rage-C" drugs?
Would the "Articulation Augmentation" mutation grant a mutant Society infantryman a TW gunnery skill bonus? Maybe in combination with the "Feralize" drug?
And could the "Fatigue Resistance" mutation grant a mutant Society infantryman an additional hex of TW movement? Maybe in combination with the "Qwikstim-C" or "Rage-C" drugs?
Maybe not. Even an Elemental is just another infantryman when outside his battle armor suit under TW rules. But I was hoping that some of these mutations and drugs are extreme enough to affect the much less granular TW infantry stats.
Would be a shame if these mutations and drugs only affect AToW play and have no impact on TW beyond whether quad protomechs can be piloted or not.
Thanks much for any help.
From a story stand point I am curious if any society mad scientist ever got ahold of a manei domeni warrior ?I mean yikes a 7 ft tall beast with a bionic everything would be nutz
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Crazy thought...
Canon indicates that some Clan totem animals, like the Jade Falcon and Smoke Jaguar, were genetically modified by the Scientist Caste (or their SLDF forbears). It would have been interesting to see the Society take this work to the next level and turn the Clan totem animals against the Warrior Caste.
SNIP
I want to see literally flaming hell's horses. You know, Nightmares, because that's what they'd be at that point.
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Well...
Cyber bodies in the shape of Equine, Prostetic Myomer Inplant, Armed with SRM-2 launcher with Inferno ammo....
Lemme sleep on the stats for now... I'll have something up later. >:D
TT
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Well, Combat Equipment has rules for some of the Inner Sphere combat drugs and how they interact under BT rules. But I don't think the WoR drugs have TW rules.
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Well, Combat Equipment has rules for some of the Inner Sphere combat drugs and how they interact under BT rules. But I don't think the WoR drugs have TW rules.
Thanks for the assist, Maelwys. The passages on Rage and Quikstim on p. 82 give me some hope.
Using the Combat Equipment passage on Spheroid Rage, Rage-C should modify gunnery by -1 but reduce Clan unarmored infantry point totals from 25 to 18 prior to game start. Maybe a similar TW rule would apply to the "Articulation Augmentation" mutation, as it improves DEX at the expense of Glass Jaw-type effects in AToW (and some infantry taken out by mutagenic diseases per WoR).
And using the Combat Equipment passage on Spheroid Quikstim, Quikstim-C should reduce Clan unarmored infantry point totals from 25 to 21 prior to game start but add back 1 point for every 5 points lost during the game. A similar rule could apply to the "Exoskeleton Adaptation" or "Robust Augmentation" mutations, as they would seem to improve survivability at the expense of some infantry taken out by mutagenic diseases per WoR.
Any other references, conversion calculations, or suggestions out there?
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Belter mods, after all the original SLDF came from Terra.
TT
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One of the ideas that I enjoy most about the Society (and one that I feel was unfortunately little explored) was that they could basically scrape almost limitless amounts of Dark Caste/sibko washouts/ne'er-do-wells out of the gutter, give them mutagenic viral therapy so they don't look quite human anymore, dose them with "stim packs", put Mauser IICs in their hands and throw them onto the battlefield. We live for the
Swarm Science! Not very ethical, but hey, but it's something expendable to throw at the enemy while my Protomechs hold the line [skull]
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Well, for a game I designed a Society forces of modified warriors very similar to Tyranids. A horror force with one of the most intense battle sessions I had ever to fight against.
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One of the ideas that I enjoy most about the Society (and one that I feel was unfortunately little explored) was that they could basically scrape almost limitless amounts of Dark Caste/sibko washouts/ne'er-do-wells out of the gutter, give them mutagenic viral therapy so they don't look quite human anymore, dose them with "stim packs", put Mauser IICs in their hands and throw them onto the battlefield. We live for the Swarm Science! Not very ethical, but hey, but it's something expendable to throw at the enemy while my Protomechs hold the line [skull]
Any surviving portion of the Society could have gotten a lot of useful data from the WoR conflict, plenty of data points.
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What steps post WOR do you think were taking to avoid another uprising? Is there more or less collaboration among the sciietist?
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What steps post WOR do you think were taking to avoid another uprising?
Give them many tasks to solve, increase development and researching budgets, give them official recognation for successes
Is there more or less collaboration among the sciietist?
What do you mean? Collaboration among the scientists against the warrior caste?
Or for all the Clans` benefit and so more inter-Clan cooperation.
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The 2nd are the scientists working as a caste for the betterment of the Clans or is that counter to each clan being a society onto itself?
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Can any conclusion be made about the Society's naming conventions?
The protomechs seem to continue with the supernatural, while the Mechs seem to orientate towards biology
and one Warship seems to have been named after a scientist/inventor.
Hobgoblin: Mischievous household spirit.
Boggart: Household spirit or a malevolent genius loci inhabiting fields, marshes or other topographical features.
Sprite: Supernatural fairy-like creatures or as an ethereal entity.
Cephalus: Hero-figure in Greek mythology
Septicemia: Blood poisoning
Osteon: Roughly cylindrical bone structures
Nikolai Tesla (Block I Davion-class destroyer): Mad scientist/inventor
From the WOR concept we also have the following four names:
Allele: variant form of a given gene
Axon: long, slender projection of a nerve cell
Oncogene: a gene that has the potential to cause cancer
Telomere: region of repetitive nucleotide sequences at each end of a chromosome
Can any Society's naming conventions be derived for other unit types (BA, CV, ASF, SC, DS)?
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From the WOR concept we also have the following four names:
Allele: variant form of a given gene
Axon: long, slender projection of a nerve cell
Oncogene: a gene that has the potential to cause cancer
Telomere: region of repetitive nucleotide sequences at each end of a chromosome
Do you have a source for this or was I just not paying close attention to WoR?
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Do you have a source for this or was I just not paying close attention to WoR?
The concept blog:
https://benhrome.wordpress.com/2011/04/01/my-latest-project-war-of-reaving/
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Do you have a source for this or was I just not paying close attention to WoR?
Here you go:
https://benhrome.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/war-of-reaving-2007-timeline-defunct.pdf
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Here you go:
https://benhrome.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/war-of-reaving-2007-timeline-defunct.pdf
Whoa. Why does this timeline actually make more sense? Clan Harambe Fire Mandrill survives in the alternative timeline! :D
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Here you go:
https://benhrome.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/war-of-reaving-2007-timeline-defunct.pdf
Hyper Elementals? Are there any clues/ideas on them?
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Hyper Elementals? Are there any clues/ideas on them?
I believe he meant something along the lines of what we saw, gene/virotherapy enhanced Elementals, kind of a Clan-version of the Manei Domini-enhanced infantry and BA troopers. But I don't know if the planning went further than that generic description or if it matched what showed up in WoR.
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I believe he meant something along the lines of what we saw, gene/virotherapy enhanced Elementals, kind of a Clan-version of the Manei Domini-enhanced infantry and BA troopers. But I don't know if the planning went further than that generic description or if it matched what showed up in WoR.
Maybe a perfected form of Mutagenic Virotherapy that elevates it to the level of cybernetic troops?
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Maybe a perfected form of Mutagenic Virotherapy that elevates it to the level of cybernetic troops?
Does a battle armour not elavate them to a level of cybernetic troops?
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Does a battle armour not elavate them to a level of cybernetic troops?
In context, its about when the BA suit isn't on.
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Doesn't it make EI a cyberwear, QuiAff?
TT
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Cephalus: Hero-figure in Greek mythology
The name is also used as a blanket term for a family of nervous system disorders.
I'm rather disappointed that there were no official vehicles making use of the Nova CEWS. Heck, we don't even see an iATM Mars.
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I'm rather disappointed that there were no official vehicles making use of the Nova CEWS.
I have plans on how to fix it, I'm just still trying to work it in to an official product.
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>:D
In that case.... CHH uses Nova Cews...
>:D
TT
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I have plans on how to fix it, I'm just still trying to work it in to an official product.
Won't be a Society "Z" unit, though. :(
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Won't be a Society "Z" unit, though. :(
Actually that was the plan, and the things I had designed fit within the "Z" unit type description and the limits we saw in Wars of Reaving and the WoR Supplemental (i.e. not a bunch more new Omnis). There were various reasons it didn't happen, but I'm gonna keep trying to make it happen if I can.
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Actually that was the plan, and the things I had designed fit within the "Z" unit type description and the limits we saw in Wars of Reaving and the WoR Supplemental (i.e. not a bunch more new Omnis). There were various reasons it didn't happen, but I'm gonna keep trying to make it happen if I can.
It sounds like you need an 'Old is the new Z' page, goods for a Home World FM or Society XTRO (this very please).
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Actually that was the plan, and the things I had designed fit within the "Z" unit type description and the limits we saw in Wars of Reaving and the WoR Supplemental (i.e. not a bunch more new Omnis). There were various reasons it didn't happen, but I'm gonna keep trying to make it happen if I can.
Oh, well then. I'd be happy to see that come about. O0
Can you share any hints? Will they be Clan vehicle refits, old Briar-cache Star League unit refits, or a mix?
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Can't share any hints, at least not any that'd be useful, since it's still all in the planning phase on my end. It has to get accepted by TPTB as something that'd be a useful investment of time and money, and even then, changes happen in the production process all the time that could change the unit designs & listing that I have.
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changes happen in the production process all the time that could change the unit designs & listing that I have.
So true, it even happens in my own fan projects.
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How do we get a fan-funded Basilisk Q and Hobgoblin in the works?
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How do we get a fan-funded Basilisk Q and Hobgoblin in the works?
I'm less interested in the Hobgoblin (one APGR with too much ammo, or four with not enough), but I'd love to see a Basilisk Q. Maybe version of the B that doesn't have so much unused weight in a TRO as well...
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How do we get a fan-funded Basilisk Q and Hobgoblin in the works?
If we offer to fund the whole amount in one go, then IWM might go for it.
It has happened with other sculpts.
And I would be fully willing to contribute for the Basilisk Q.
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The Hobgoblin would actually be pretty good if you pulled the APGauss, ammo and Magnetic Clamps for an ERML and Proto MASC and left everything else the same, making it a sort of super-Basilisk. I agree that the canon variants are pretty bad. It just looks so good though, aesthetically :))
I'd be down to throw some money down towards a fan financed Basilisk Q. Otherwise, I'll probably just 3D print my own
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The Hobgoblin would actually be pretty good if you pulled the APGauss, ammo and Magnetic Clamps for an ERML and Proto MASC and left everything else the same, making it a sort of super-Basilisk. I agree that the canon variants are pretty bad. It just looks so good though, aesthetically :))
I'd be down to throw some money down towards a fan financed Basilisk Q. Otherwise, I'll probably just 3D print my own
The second Hobby would be fine if it had more than 5 shots per gun. Given its armor, there's an extremely good chance that thing will massively outlive its ammo, a problem the primary Boggart rather has; would have been nice to have a shorter-range, lighter proto-scale plasma cannon for that. Or just more than 10 rounds per ton.
Also, why does the Procyon have to be so damn expensive to buy? It's double the price of similar protomechs. Makes it a real pain putting together my Society proto force. >:(
/vent
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Quick, somebody critique my Society Sept for an 8000BV force
6x Basilisk Q (half loaded with inferno SRMS, and half with regular for crit-seeking)
6x Hobgoblin (Fusilade loaded with EMP missles for stunning)
6x Boggart 2
3x Sprite (one bin each filled with smoke rounds)
If customs are allowed, I'd prefer modding the Hobgoblin to lose the MagClamps and give it a bigger gun than the AP Gauss, or replace this proto entirely with something else. Any suggestions? Maybe two uns of vees, perhaps?
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Quick, somebody critique my Society Sept for an 8000BV force
6x Basilisk Q (half loaded with inferno SRMS, and half with regular for crit-seeking)
6x Hobgoblin (Fusilade loaded with EMP missles for stunning)
6x Boggart 2
3x Sprite (one bin each filled with smoke rounds)
If customs are allowed, I'd prefer modding the Hobgoblin to lose the MagClamps and give it a bigger gun than the AP Gauss, or replace this proto entirely with something else. Any suggestions? Maybe two uns of vees, perhaps?
Any room to trade for some Sprite 2s if you're looking for a bigger gun? Can't get much bigger than an ERLL on a Proto.
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I mean, you're not wrong. The Sprite 2 is awesome. Mostly I'm reticent because it would be hard to mod the Sprite mini (how to remove the missile pods on the arms?)
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Quick, somebody critique my Society Sept for an 8000BV force
6x Basilisk Q (half loaded with inferno SRMS, and half with regular for crit-seeking)
6x Hobgoblin (Fusilade loaded with EMP missles for stunning)
6x Boggart 2
3x Sprite (one bin each filled with smoke rounds)
If customs are allowed, I'd prefer modding the Hobgoblin to lose the MagClamps and give it a bigger gun than the AP Gauss, or replace this proto entirely with something else. Any suggestions? Maybe two uns of vees, perhaps?
Why keep to the Hobgoblin in the first place? If you want Fusilades, why not use the Sprite 3? You'd get a much better unit that way.
Otherwise go with something like the Roc Z, or even some Procyon 5/Z and a Mist Lynx Z filled with IIW and IMP warheads. I've found the IIW are a great way to help deal with someone that brings inferno SRMs to try and take out your protomechs.
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I thought of using the Hobgoblins mostly because of that dank flavor (they look so nice!) and they make decent tanks because of their obscenely high armor.
I was hoping to use only 3rd/4th gen protos, but I also have a Trey of Centaurs, Rocs, Gorgons and Minotaurs laying around to sub in. I suppose I might as well change the Hobgoblins out for Minotaur Zs
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How are you going to transport those Minotaurs, though, without some mechs?
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Quick, somebody critique my Society Sept for an 8000BV force
6x Basilisk Q (half loaded with inferno SRMS, and half with regular for crit-seeking)
6x Hobgoblin (Fusilade loaded with EMP missles for stunning)
6x Boggart 2
3x Sprite (one bin each filled with smoke rounds)
If customs are allowed, I'd prefer modding the Hobgoblin to lose the MagClamps and give it a bigger gun than the AP Gauss, or replace this proto entirely with something else. Any suggestions? Maybe two uns of vees, perhaps?
You're sinking over 1600 BV2 into the six Hobgoblins. Trading in the Hobgoblins and maybe one more proto, you could buy two Mist Lynx Zs (about 1900 BV2) and their four iATM-3s for your IMP warhead delivery. The Mist Lynx Zs have better speed and mobility to get the IMPs into their SRM-ish range, deeper ammo bins to keep the IMPs coming, and maximal Streak-like missile hits for the IMPs when the iATMs connect. Plus Nova CEWS so only one Mist Lynx Z needs to be exposed to short-range enemy fire at a time.
The Mist Lynx Zs and Basilisk Quads should obviously try to cripple an enemy unit or two each turn with IMP and inferno attacks, while the Sprites smoke the remaining enemy units. Then the Boggart 2s can go for the kill on the crippled units, assisted by whatever Mist Lynx Zs or Basilisk Quads or Sprites aren't needed to cripple or smoke other enemy units the next turn.
It really sucks that there's no fast, BV2-cheap hovertank or other vehicle with a couple iATM-3s for IMP delivery. If you can modify units, maybe see if you can save some BV2 by modifying a couple Asshurs or Shamashes with iATM-3s instead of using the Mist Lynx Zs (or Hobgoblins).
If mods are available, you could also create a Cephalus configuration with a couple iATM-3s. Should be about the same BV2 as the Mist Lynx Z but more survivable. Even more than vehicles, it makes little sense that a Cephalus with iATMs does not exist.
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Might as well use a Storm Crow Z or Summoner Z or maybe even Batu Zs at that point, but point taken. I was trying to not use Mechs, and only use protos. I want to remain pure!
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Might as well use a Storm Crow Z or Summoner Z or maybe even Batu Zs at that point, but point taken. I was trying to not use Mechs, and only use protos. I want to remain pure!
I've tried that before. Then my opponent started filling up his units with inferno SRMs.
Remember, for every three infernos that hit, you roll a location on the protomech and that location is gone. Had 40 points of armor? lolnope, all gone, plus the internals. Was that a torso? Better take out a personal ad for a new pilot.
Protos are super vulnerable to inferno attacks. You're going to want some kind of defense against that counter, and in my experience IIW and diversity were the best answers.
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Might as well use a Storm Crow Z or Summoner Z or maybe even Batu Zs at that point, but point taken. I was trying to not use Mechs, and only use protos. I want to remain pure!
Nothing wrong with that. I was just pointing out that to deliver IMPs, you're sinking a lot of BV into a very substandard design (the Hobgoblin).
If you want to stay proto-pure and canon, ditch the Hobgoblins and go with Xeno's suggestion of the Sprite 3 for IMP delivery.
But like the Hobgoblin, Sprites are slow, which doesn't match up well with the short, 9-hex range of IMP warheads (except in ambush or urban situations). In a mobile or open engagement, you need something faster to bring the IMPs to your enemy, and there are simply no other canon protomechs, nevertheless speedier ones, than the Hobgoblin or Sprite 3 with Fusillades
The cheapest thing in the canon for mobile IMP delivery is the Mist Lynx Z, which is why I recommended using a couple of them in place of the Hobgoblins.
I would actually _not_ recommend a Stormcrow Z, Summoner Z, Septicemia A, or Batu Z for IMP delivery. The effects of IMPs max out after six missiles. Because iATMs have built-in Streak capabilities, anything larger than an iATM-6 for IMP delivery is a waste. The Stormcrow Z, Summoner Z, Septecemia A, and Batu Z all carry iATM-9s or -12s.
Conversely, the Viper Z is suboptimal with only one iATM-3 -- it can't max out IMP effects.
So not only is the Mist Lynx Z the cheapest canon platform for IMP delivery after protomechs, it's dual iATM-3s are also optimal for IMP delivery. The Mist Lynx Z can max out IMP effects without wasting iATM tubes.
The alternative to the Mist Lynx Z is to go non-canon and mount Fusillades on a faster protomech or iATM-3s or -6s on a faster combat vehicle. Given the fragility of the Mist Lynx Z for its BV, I'd certainly go those routes if the scenario allowed. ("Hey GM, the Society is made up of scientists. Let me experiment!")
But other than your IMP delivery platform, it's a well-rounded and effective Society proto force. Not much else to argue with other than the inherent vulnerabilities of protos.
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Badger-C E config.
And the best part is same weight and they come two to a Point!
TT
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Badger-C E config.
That's a good idea. Just change "ATM-3" to "iATM-3" and you're good to go. Deploy at least two for maximal IMP effects. 5/8 wheeled movement, 5 tons of armor, and less than 500 BV2 each.
The Zorya ATM variant is another good option. Carries an ATM-6 (switch to iATM-6) and an LB 5-X. 5/8 tracked movement and increased armor over the original. Less than 700 BV2 each.
They could each be faster, but will definitely get the IMPs into play quicker than the Hobgoblin or Sprite 3.
And the best part is same weight and they come two to a Point!
The Society actually deploys seven vehicles to an Un, but obviously doesn't apply to a BV-limited game.
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That's a good idea. Just change "ATM-3" to "iATM-3" and you're good to go.
That applies to anything with ATMs :P
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I also went and played with the Donar to make it Society-friendly, drawing on a few version concepts.
Donar Assault Helicopter (iATM)
Clan experimental
21 tons
BV: 928
Cost: 3,424,820 C-bills
Movement: 9/14 (VTOL)
Engine: 49
Internal: 15
Armor: 57 (Ferro-Fibrous)
Internal Armor
--------------------------------------
Front 3 16
Right 3 14
Left 3 14
Rear 3 11
Rotor 3 2
Weapon Loc Heat
----------------------------------------
iATM 3 FR 2
iATM 3 FR 2
Improved Heavy Medium Laser FR 7
Clan TAG FR 0
Ammo Loc Shots
----------------------------------------
iATM 3 ER Ammo BD 20
iATM 3 HE Ammo BD 20
Equipment Loc
----------------------------------
Nova CEWS RO
Mast Mount ROBasically, the big laser is replaced with a smaller improved heavy medium laser (same damage, less range), the two streaks are replaced with a pair of iATM-3s, and the mast mount from the Close Support version now finds a use for the Nova CEWS (rather stupid a TAG can't be put up there, seeing as how that's exactly how it's used IRL (https://c1.staticflickr.com/2/1458/25835924554_aa63b3b271_b.jpg)).
The TAG could be swapped out for a 30-rated engine (boosting speed to 10/15) and a light TAG, or just exchanged for another ton of ammo if that is needed. All for less than 1000 BV.
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Anybody have any examples of Society forces/Opfors they'd like to share?
Here's my Sept:
1x Cephalus prime
2x Septiciemia prime
6x Boggart 2
3x Sprite 2
7x Vali
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That seems like a brutal amount of Artillery...
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That seems like a brutal amount of Artillery...
I am of the opinion that the best way to mitigate the bad (fluffed) gunnery of Society vee forces is to use vees where lack of good gunnery matters the least (use mass homing artillery barrage). Also, I can see that SLDF artillery is probably a fair amount of what was left in the Brian Caches two centuries later after the Clans poached all the Mechs and ASFs.
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I am of the opinion that the best way to mitigate the bad (fluffed) gunnery of Society vee forces is to use vees where lack of good gunnery matters the least (use mass homing artillery barrage). Also, I can see that SLDF artillery is probably a fair amount of what was left in the Brian Caches two centuries later after the Clans poached all the Mechs and ASFs.
Completely logical. ;)
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I am of the opinion that the best way to mitigate the bad (fluffed) gunnery of Society vee forces is to use vees where lack of good gunnery matters the least (use mass homing artillery barrage). Also, I can see that SLDF artillery is probably a fair amount of what was left in the Brian Caches two centuries later after the Clans poached all the Mechs and ASFs.
True, but you're putting all your eggs into one TAG basket. That one Cephalus has to provide all target marking duty (remember, Sprite 2 was errata'd to remove the light TAG). Maybe replace that Un of Sprite 2s with an Un of Satyr 4's and another Un of something else. Hell, with the saved BV, you could get yourself a Turkina Z.
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True, but you're putting all your eggs into one TAG basket. That one Cephalus has to provide all target marking duty (remember, Sprite 2 was errata'd to remove the light TAG). Maybe replace that Un of Sprite 2s with an Un of Satyr 4's and another Un of something else. Hell, with the saved BV, you could get yourself a Turkina Z.
With that Qty of Artillery it might be best to not use any TAG and 'let statistics do the talking'. It will save a lot of TAG+Arrow penalty BV.
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With that Qty of Artillery it might be best to not use any TAG and 'let statistics do the talking'. It will save a lot of TAG+Arrow penalty BV.
Precisely my thinking. With five tons of ammo, each Vali need not fire Homing rounds every turn, the Cephalus doesn't need to be TAGing all the time. The Valis could just as well be firing FASCAM or smoke rounds or even plain vanilla unguided rounds to deal with fast movers and large clusters of units.
But, I suppose that I could swap a Vali for a Royal Zephyr or something and maybe use a bin of Narc'd LRM ammo on the Sprites
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Anybody have any examples of Society forces/Opfors they'd like to share?
Here's my Sept:
1x Cephalus prime
2x Septiciemia prime
6x Boggart 2
3x Sprite 2
7x Vali
That's an interesting Sept. It goes for sheer armor-defeating firepower over the Society's usual "dirty trick" attacks on heat sinks and myomers.
I am of the opinion that the best way to mitigate the bad (fluffed) gunnery of Society vee forces is to use vees where lack of good gunnery matters the least...
I agree. Alternatives could include the Huey, Pollux, Padilla, Chaparral, Ballista, Marksman, and Thor. Whether you're Society or not, it's almost always better to use vehicles in the off-board artillery role due to their fragility than waste more durable mechs.
Short of these artillery platforms, the next best vehicles for unskilled Society crews are those that carry weapons with a targeting modifier, like pulse lasers, LB-X cluster, or TCs. But even between the SLDF and Golden Age, such vehicles are few and far between. Only the LB-X Carrier and Oro come to mind. (We are in great need of a handful of vehicle Zs with Nova CEWs and/or iATM conversions.)
My impression is that, while vehicle crews may have been the worst, all types of Society warriors suffered from a lack of training and/or trueborn fitness relative to Clanners. So I think that also argues for weapons on Society omnimechs and protomechs that impose targeting and other modifiers whenever possible, including modifiers that benefit the Society warrior (pulse lasers, LB-X cluster, TCs, etc.) or that impose penalties on the Clanners (EDP, infernos, IMP, IIW, plasma cannons, smoke, etc.).
Since the latter tend to be shorter-ranged weapons and munitions (under 15 or 9 hexes), I prefer faster omnimechs and protomechs for delivering EDP, infernos, IMP, IIW, and plasma cannons. And since the former can be longer-ranged, I prefer slower omnimechs and protomechs for delivering large pulse, LB 10-X or smaller, LRM smoke and FASCAM, etc.
For omnimechs, this actually turns some Society tactical fluff on its head. Instead using the Cephalus Prime, I employ faster omnimechs with iATMs in the Nova CEWs spotter role, like the Mist Lynx Z, Viper Z, Stormcrow Z, and Timber Wolf Z. This ensures that my IMP and IIW (and even HE and standard ATM) warheads get into range. I also prefer to run two of these spotters, both to make the Nova CEWs network more resilient and to only expose one at a time while the other gets Nova CEWs bonuses for its iATM attacks.
(And unlike Clanners in-game, no player with half-a-brain is going to be fooled into ignoring a Cephalus, anyway.)
Since they have trouble getting into range for IMP, IIW, and HE warheads, instead of using the Osteon Prime, Savage Coyote Z, or Turkina Z for iATM delivery, I use designs like the Osteon D and its four pulse large lasers tied into the Nova CEWs network for reliable ranged support.
It's more straightforward for Society protomech tactics. Generally their shorter-ranged weapons (EDP, Fusillade, plasma cannon) are aligned with their more mobile protomechs, like the Basilisk Quad and Boggart, while their longer-ranged weapons (LRM smoke or FASCAM) are aligned with their slower protomechs, like the Sprite.
(However, I skipped the Sprite since the LB-X carrier comes with three LRM-5s for smoke/FASCAM delivery.)
Finally, since the Society fields so many vehicles per Un, I'd be tempted to put a Mobile HQ or something else with 4-7 tons of communications equipment off-board for the initiative bonuses. Those bonuses will really boost the value of the more mobile protomechs and the omnimech Nova CEWs spotters.
Putting it altogether, it looks like this:
Un 1: Basilisk Quad B, Basilisk Quad B, Basilisk Quad B
Un 2: Boggart, Boggart, Boggart
Un 3: Stormcrow Z (w/ IMP and IIW)
Un 4: Stormcrow Z (w/ IMP and IIW)
Un 5: Osteon D
Un 6: Osteon D
Un 7: Mobile HQ, Oro, Oro, Oro, LB-X Carrier (w/ smoke/FASCAM), LB-X Carrier (w/ smoke/FASCAM), LB-X Carrier (w/ smoke/FASCAM)
Aided by initiative bonuses from the Mobile HQ off-board, the Basilisks and Boggarts cripple Clanners with initial attacks on their heat scales (plasma cannons) and targeting/movement (electric discharge armor), while the lead Stormcrow Z and the LB-X Carriers keep the Clanners down with similar heat sink/myomer attacks from IMP, IIW, and LRM smoke/FASCAM munitions. Then the Nova CEWs on the lead Stormcrow Z guides accurate pulse laser fire from the Osteon Ds and accurate HE or standard ATM fire from the second Stormcrow Z to finish off the Clanners. If that's not enough to kill, then massed pulse laser and LB-X fire from the LB-X carriers and Oros can deliver the coup de grace.
I'd also note that with all the incendiary attacks and LB-X cluster rounds being thrown, this Sept should also have no problem with Clanner battle armor, vehicle, or solahma infantry (and maybe even aerospace fighters).
This Sept lacks a massed artillery attack from off-board or big guns like the HAG-40s on the Septicemia Prime. But it still delivers a lot of raw firepower, while maximizing nearly all the modifier levers (heat, targeting, movement, initiative) that the Society can pull to make the battle as uneven as possible.
It would be interesting to "experiment" and see what Septs do best against a standard Clan binary or trinary on a regular board.
And of course, this is all optimized without BV or other constraints.
FWIW...
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Nice Sept you have there! Using a Mobile HQ is something that I have though of doing as well, especially as my own interpretation of Society tactics focuses on initiative-dependent moves like backstabbing and crippling opponent mobility via Protomech encirclement. Using a Mobile HQ makes sense because 1) it gives the Society the advantage and 2) Clans don't use them, so there are at least a few left in the Brian Caches
The idea behind my Sept was something like: disperse the opponent with non-guided Arrow IV saturation and/or funnel individual enemy units with FASCAM rounds, and then use superior mobility to concentrate firepower on the nearest outlying enemy unit, while hindering enemy LOS against attacking Society units with smoke rounds. Although I realize that this force + tactics would only succeed against a 4/6 or slower Clan star or binary in broken terrain.
I think that one of the failings of the force that I posted is that it somewhat lacks critseeking ability, unlike your vehicle trey. I personally would go with Demolisher C over the Oro if fighting in a city or in broken terrain, but I understand the utility of the LPL.
I chose Valis as arty of choice because they have on the deepest ammo bins. I need an arty unit with at least 4 tons of ammo (1 homing, 1 non-guided, 1 FASCAM, 1 smoke). While I have considered Copperhead rounds for the numerous tube arty units out there (like the Marksman, Pollux, Ballista, etc) these units just don't have a deep enough ammo bin to make it worth it unless I am fielding these units in more than an Un or two
Something that I've been considering lately is experimenting with 'dirtbag Society forces' for competitive BV play designed a bit like '3025ish dirtbag militia' forces, but with a few Protomechs. I'm less the "in-bed-with-Clan-Coyote" Society player and more "we're still out there hiding out in an asteroid, you just think you killed all of us muahahaha" kind of guy but this means less access to resources. How would you approach the problem "how does an small independent Society cell win?" I guess the real problem is translating this to the table top and making it fun and not too munchy ::)
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As a reminder, please post all designs to the relevant Fan Designs board, not out here.
I've relocated the Combat Vehicles that were posted here to this thread:
http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=58302.0
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Something that I've been considering lately is experimenting with 'dirtbag Society forces' for competitive BV play designed a bit like '3025ish dirtbag militia' forces, but with a few Protomechs. I'm less the "in-bed-with-Clan-Coyote" Society player and more "we're still out there hiding out in an asteroid, you just think you killed all of us muahahaha" kind of guy but this means less access to resources. How would you approach the problem "how does an small independent Society cell win?"
Obtain Strength From Numbers. Trade quality for quantity, specifically mechs for vehicles. Use few or no mech Uns with only one unit each in favor of vehicle Uns with seven units each, even if they're small, junky, or outdated Golden Century or SLDF vehicles. Seven Shamashes attacking a single omnimech is verboten in Clan Trials. It should be de rigueur for Society remnants.
Maintain Dirty Tricks. Maintain the Society remnant's ability to reduce Clanner targeting accuracy and firepower and restrict Clanner movement through EMP, incendiary, smoke, and FASCAM attacks. Pick protomechs and vehicles with plasma cannons and multiple small LRM (smoke/FASCAM) and SRM (inferno) racks. Artillery munitions can also supply incendiary and smoke attacks. If the campaign allows, pick vehicles with ATMs and upgrade them to iATMs with IMP and IIW warheads.
Make Firepower Count. With limited resources and unskilled warriors, ensure that the Society remnant can hit reliably by picking protomechs and vehicles with pulse lasers, LB-X cluster, targeting computers, and Artemis V FCS. Of course, area attack weapons and artillery also help offset poor Society gunnery skills. If the campaign allows, upgrade vehicles with Nova CEWs networks. This is especially effective on certain SLDF Royal variants where a Guardian ECM suite, Streak SRM-2, or anti-missile system can easily trade out for a Nova CEWS.
Concentrate Tactics. Don't do a little of everything in an Un or Trey. One plasma cannon or three iATM tubes or two pulse lasers or five LB-X cluster hits in an Un or Trey won't do much to unbalance the battlefield and cripple or destroy a Clanner unit. Focus each Un or Trey on one or two tactics. Several plasma cannons will max out the heat on mechs. At least six iATM tubes are needed to max out the IMP modifiers. A handful of pulse lasers or tens of LB-X cluster will strip armor, crit out, or knock a Clanner unconscious more quickly.
Reinforce. Society infantry were few in number and irregular. But with limited or no mech and vehicle production, a Society remnant would probably leverage its iron wombs and genetic engineering talents more heavily to supplement its forces. Canon Clan infantry units from TRO 3085 are shockingly powerful, and a Society remnant should field them and infantry carriers (Bandit, Badger, Svantovit, etc.) in quantity. If you can house rule some BT-level effects from mutagenic virotherapies and battle drugs for your Society remnant infantry, all the better. Similarly, if defending a Society remnant base, fortifications with Nova CEWS and iATM turrets, prepositioned minefields, and preplotted artillery targets should be the order of the day.
Surprise With Wildcards. For example, the possibilities of the Clan Cargo variant of the Saladin and its 17-ton payload bay, high speed, and thick armor intrigue me. Could a Boggart, a couple Basilisks, or other quad protos mechanize with and deploy directly from the Saladin's payload bay using the infantry carrier rules (or the cargo unloading rules and the help of an infantry unit or two)? Or maybe the Saladin just disgorges hordes of mutagenic, feralized, Society remnant infantry? Could a Saladin carry a weaponized Mobile HPG and a small fusion engine to power it? Similarly, what about some biochem warheads on other units?
Putting all this together, here's my take on some dirtbag-ish Society remnant Treys:
E-M Strike Trey
Un 1: Basilisk Quad B, Basilisk Quad B, Basilisk Quad B
Un 2: Hephaestus C (iATM), Hephaestus C (iATM), Bandit (C) E (iATM), Bandit (C) E (iATM), Svantovit (iATM), Svantovit (iATM), Svantovit (iATM)
Un 3: Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry
Note: The Hephaestus C (iATM), Bandit (C) E (iATM), and Svantovit (iATM) trade the ATM launchers in the canon Hephaestus C (ATM), Bandit (C) E, and Svantovit (ATM) for equivalent iATM launchers.
E-M Battle Trey
Un 1: Hobgoblin, Hobgoblin, Hobgoblin
Un 2: Zorya (iATM), Zorya (iATM), Zorya (iATM), Zorya (iATM), Badger (C) E (iATM), Badger (C) E (iATM), Badger (C) E (iATM)
Un 3: Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry
Note: Zorya (iATM) and Badger (C) E (iATM) trade the ATM launchers in the canon Zorya (ATM) and Badger (C) E for iATM launchers.
Incendiary Strike Trey
Un 1: Basilisk Quad (Infernos), Basilisk Quad (Infernos), Basilisk Quad (Infernos)
Un 2: Epona F, Epona F, Bandit (C) F, Bandit (C) F, Saladin (Clan Cargo), Saladin (Clan Cargo), Saladin (Clan Cargo)
Un 3: Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry
Note: The Basilisk Quads can mechanize with the Saladins (Clan Cargo) using infantry carrier rules or cargo unloading rules. If using the latter rules, then the Clan Assault Infantry also mechanizes with the Saladins to assist with unloading.
Incendiary Battle Trey
Un 1: Boggart, Boggart, Boggart
Un 2: Ares (Plasma), Ares (Plasma), Indra (BA), Indra (BA), Badger B (Infernos), Badger B (Infernos), Badger B (Infernos)
Un 3: Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry
Strike Trey
Un 1: Boggart 2, Boggart 2, Boggart 2
Un 2: Epona Prime, Epona Prime, Bandit (C) C, Bandit (C) C, Saladin (Clan Cargo), Saladin (Clan Cargo), Saladin (Clan Cargo)
Un 3: Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry
Note: The Boggart 2s can mechanize with the Saladins (Clan Cargo) using infantry carrier rules or cargo unloading rules. If using the latter rules, then the Clan Assault Infantry also mechanizes with the Saladins to assist with unloading.
Battle Trey
Un 1: Boggart 2, Boggart 2, Boggart 2
Un 2: Enyo, Enyo, Enyo, Enyo, Badger (C) B, Badger (C) B, Badger (C) B
Un 3: Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry
Networked Assault Trey
Un 1: Royal Lightning (Nova CEWs), Royal Lightning (Nova CEWs), Royal Lightning (Nova CEWs), Royal Nightshade (Nova CEWS), Royal Nightshade (Nova CEWS), Royal Nightshade (Nova CEWS), Saladin (Clan Cargo)
Un 2: Royal Von Luckner (Nova CEWS), Royal Von Luckner (Nova CEWS), Royal Rhino (Nova CEWS), Royal Rhino (Nova CEWS), Royal Demon (Nova CEWS), Royal Demon (Nova CEWS), Royal Demon (Nova CEWS)
Un 3: Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry
Note: The Royal Lightning (Nova CEWs), Royal Von Luckner (Nova CEWS), and Royal Demon (Nova CEWS) each trade one Streak SRM-2 for a Nova CEWS. The Royal Nightshade (Nova CEWS) and Royal Rhino (Nova CEWS) each trade their Guardian ECMs for a Nova CEWS.
Command and Support Trey
Un 1: Sprite (Smoke or FASCAM), Sprite (Smoke or FASCAM), Sprite (Smoke or FASCAM)
Un 2: Mobile HQ, LB-X Carrier (Smoke or FASCAM), LB-X Carrier (Smoke or FASCAM), LB-X Carrier (Smoke or FASCAM), Vali, Vali, Vali
Un 3: Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry
Rogue Trey
Un 1: Shamash, Shamash, Shamash, Shamash, Shamash, Shamash, Shamash
Un 2: Asshur (Proto AC), Asshur (Proto AC), Odin, Odin, Svantovit (Original), Svantovit (Original), Svantovit (Original)
Un 3: Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry
Special Weapons Trey
Un 1: Centaur Z (BioChem), Centaur Z (BioChem), Centaur Z (BioChem)
Un 2: Saladin (HPG), Saladin (HPG), Saladin (HPG), Saladin (HPG), Bandit D (BioChem), Bandit D (BioChem), Bandit D (BioChem).
Un 3: Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry
Note: The Centaur Zs and Bandit Ds carry biochemical warheads in their LRMs per the IO rules. The Saladin (HPG) mounts a Ground-Mobile HPG (12 tons) and fusion engine (up to 5 tons) to power it in place of the 17-ton cargo bay in the Saladin (Clan Cargo).
You could take all or pieces from three of these treys to make a sept. But WoR Supp (p. 2) mentions that the Society would also field four independently operating Treys (alongside the Coyotes). So I would pick four complementary Treys from the list above and use those as the basis for a Society remnant force.
Hope this helps… my 2 Kerenskies… FWIW…
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Something that I've been considering lately is experimenting with 'dirtbag Society forces' for competitive BV play designed a bit like '3025ish dirtbag militia' forces, but with a few Protomechs. I'm less the "in-bed-with-Clan-Coyote" Society player and more "we're still out there hiding out in an asteroid, you just think you killed all of us muahahaha" kind of guy but this means less access to resources. How would you approach the problem "how does an small independent Society cell win?" I guess the real problem is translating this to the table top and making it fun and not too munchy ::)
I like the idea of a few warships (hulled out into transports, like the original Leviathan) being used to move remaining members of the Society, and setting up shop somewhere rimward of the former FWL
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You mean like the Carrack?
TT
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You mean like the Carrack?
TT
Something like that, yeah, but I don't know how many Carracks the Society would have access to, since most were owned by the Cats and the Sharks.
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Natasha, that is a truly dizzying array of possible Society forces that you've put together. You're totally right about maximizing as many dirty tricks to win the day vs raw firepower. I suppose the trick here is getting someone to play against you when you play Society ;D
I like the idea of a few warships (hulled out into transports, like the original Leviathan) being used to move remaining members of the Society, and setting up shop somewhere rimward of the former FWL
Per Ben Rome's WoR draft, some remnants of the Society ended up in the Trader's Domain just outside the Raven Alliance. I like to think that this is the case especially since there was a note in WoR discussing the dangers of Society infiltration on the RA and the report was a little too over the top that there was no danger.. ;)
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Networked Assault Trey
Un 1: Royal Lightning (Nova CEWs), Royal Lightning (Nova CEWs), Royal Lightning (Nova CEWs), Royal Nightshade (Nova CEWS), Royal Nightshade (Nova CEWS), Royal Nightshade (Nova CEWS), Saladin (Clan Cargo)
Un 2: Royal Von Luckner (Nova CEWS), Royal Von Luckner (Nova CEWS), Royal Rhino (Nova CEWS), Royal Rhino (Nova CEWS), Royal Demon (Nova CEWS), Royal Demon (Nova CEWS), Royal Demon (Nova CEWS)
Un 3: Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry, Clan Assault Infantry
Note: The Royal Lightning (Nova CEWs), Royal Von Luckner (Nova CEWS), and Royal Demon (Nova CEWS) each trade one Streak SRM-2 for a Nova CEWS. The Royal Nightshade (Nova CEWS) and Royal Rhino (Nova CEWS) each trade their Guardian ECMs for a Nova CEWS.
Nova CEWS generates +2 heat, and units that don't track heat need to have enough HS to cover that. The Royal Nightshade has a LPL that's already using up its 10 free HS, so it would need another 2T from somewhere to fit the Nova—maybe dropping the speed down to 12/18, which would give an extra 0.5T to maybe add to armor. The rest of those units have spare HS capacity from the engine, so they're fine.
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I take it Society refits of old IIC Mechs would mostly consist of stripping something for Nova CEWs and replacing missiles with iATMs. That'd make sense, right?
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I take it Society refits of old IIC Mechs would mostly consist of stripping something for Nova CEWs and replacing missiles with iATMs. That'd make sense, right?
A handful of IICs are in the Society RAT on p. 32: Jenner, Urbanmech, Clint, Griffin, Rifleman, Guillotine, Rifleman, and Warhammer. No IIC mechs show up on the Society's record sheets in WoR Supp so we don't have any official mods, but Nova CEWS and iATMs are the two signature Society mech weapons.
Personally, given the omnimech-heavy nature of their Coyote allies and the Society's high-tech nature, I would have assumed that the Society fielded old-school Golden Century/Coyote omnimechs, like the Coyotl, Lupus, and Woodsman, before resorting to IICs and SLDF Royals. As omnis, installing Nova CEWS and iATMs would logically have been easier on these designs.
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Personally, given the omnimech-heavy nature of their Coyote allies and the Society's high-tech nature, I would have assumed that the Society fielded old-school Golden Century/Coyote omnimechs, like the Coyotl, Lupus, and Woodsman, before resorting to IICs and SLDF Royals. As omnis, installing Nova CEWS and iATMs would logically have been easier on these designs.
I certainly agree. I was quite honestly surprised that the Coyotl, Lupus and Woodsman didn't appear on the Society RATs (although the Woodsman did appear on the Burrock/Dark Caste RAT). On the other hand, the Cephalus and Osteon appeared more on the Burrock/Dark Caste RAT than they did on the Society RAT, which to me makes no sense. In my view of things, Burrock/Dark Caste RATs should be more likely filled with Royals and other units raided from Brian Caches over the centuries, whereas the Society would use more omnimechs and other high-tech toys fliched from "failed" black projects that were taken off the books.
In universe, putting Nova CEWS on everything should be easy to do, right? I mean, WoB put c3i's on everything under the sun, even old SLDF designs. Of course the Society didn't have the resources that WoB did, so I'm of the opinion that Nova CEWS should mostly be restricted to being mounted on Omnis and other cutting edge forces that aren't meant to be cannon fodder. I really wish that there was a Kingfisher, Gargoyle or Hellion with Nova CEWS. they showed up in the Society RATs, too, after all...
Lastly, yes Nova CEWS + iATMs is a good starting point to give a unit more of a Society feel, but there are other things to consider as well. I would look into using high-tech toys in intelligent or unexpected ways like, improved Heavy Lasers, ER Pulse Lasers, arrays of AP Gauss, mech tasers, mech mortars, Streak LRMs, retractable blades, and heck, maybe even Fluid guns and mine layers. And that's before we start talking about bioweapons, compute viruses, etc. The idea is to throw the (Clan trueborn) enemy off balance with a combination of tactics that synergize and allow the combined-arms Society force to win initiative and overrun the opposing force. When I think of designing a Society unit, I ask myself, "how can I make this unit the just right amount of munchy, that it comes off being munchy with style?"
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In my view of things, Burrock/Dark Caste RATs should be more likely filled with Royals and other units raided from Brian Caches over the centuries, whereas the Society would use more omnimechs and other high-tech toys fliched from "failed" black projects that were taken off the books.
Seconded. Those RATs are a little whack.
The other mech I'd use in Society formations is the Rabid Coyote. Easy to procure from the Society's Coyote allies, easy to upgrade from ATMs to iATMs, and its pulse laser array has built-in accuracy to offset the Society mechwarriors' poor gunnery skills.
In universe, putting Nova CEWS on everything should be easy to do, right?
The thing that makes me hesitate is the description in WoR Supp about how it's hard for the post-Reaving Clans to remove Nova CEWS from the surviving Osteons. The Nova CEWS is fixed equipment on the Osteon, which makes me think it may be hard to add or remove from non-omni designs. But it's ignorable fluff, regardless.
I'm of the opinion that Nova CEWS should mostly be restricted to being mounted on Omnis and other cutting edge forces that aren't meant to be cannon fodder.
I agree.
In the remnant Society treys above, I only used Nova CEWs on the old SLDF Royal tanks because: 1) I prohibited myself from using any mechs, 2) most of the junky Clan tanks I used could be easily upgraded from ATMs to iATMs, and 3) the SLDF tanks had the most firepower of the units I restricted myself to so they benefitted the most from Nova CEWS.
But for a normal Society Trey, I'd reserve the Nova CEWS for omnimechs, and use iATMs and other Society tricks on regular mechs and tanks.
maybe even Fluid guns and mine layers.
I was using fluid guns on some homegrown Society designs until I realized that vehicle flamers can spray obscurant ammo just as far for a fraction of the tonnage. A flamer with access to both inferno and obscurant ammo basically acts like a short-range iATM with access to both IIW and IMP ammo -- it can screw with Clanner heat levels and targeting modifiers. (Corrosive ammo is also nice.) Great for mobile, in-your-face units like protos. small hovertanks/WIGEs, etc.
I really need to find time to post some of my Society designs...
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I was using fluid guns on some homegrown Society designs until I realized that vehicle flamers can spray obscurant ammo just as far for a fraction of the tonnage. A flamer with access to both inferno and obscurant ammo basically acts like a short-range iATM with access to both IIW and IMP ammo -- it can screw with Clanner heat levels and targeting modifiers. (Corrosive ammo is also nice.) Great for mobile, in-your-face units like protos. small hovertanks/WIGEs, etc.
I can imagine repurposed Coolant Trucks spraying down city streets with lubricant, causing Mechs to slide into mines, and hopefully fall over prone. Then the Trucks can spray them with obscurant.
You know, kind of like Home Alone, but with genocide and Protomech pilots hopped up on meth
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actually i could beleive that they didn't refit the IIC's and royals, because we are told several times they had to kick off without enough preperation. so odds are any IIC's and royals were ones yanked from production lines or pulled from brian cache's short notice in order to arm the various Cells. a case of "our cell doesn't have enough of our own designs.. what can we beg, borrow, and steal to make up the difference?"
the Brian Caches for vehicles would have been largely untouched over the centuries, thus lots of SLDF era vehicles. Protomechs are cheaper and faster to build than mechs for the clans, so plenty of "Z" proto's. Omnimechs can be easily fitted with society tech, but non-Omni's would need extensive refits, so the Non-Omni's were probably thrown in without changes. at most maybe replacing standard ATM's for iATM's.
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A lot of those older units such as Royals or early Clan designs would likely require refurbishment before they could be put into combat.
So any Society survivors might have a lot of them.
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actually i could beleive that they didn't refit the IIC's and royals, because we are told several times they had to kick off without enough preperation. so odds are any IIC's and royals were ones yanked from production lines or pulled from brian cache's short notice in order to arm the various Cells. a case of "our cell doesn't have enough of our own designs.. what can we beg, borrow, and steal to make up the difference?"
the Brian Caches for vehicles would have been largely untouched over the centuries, thus lots of SLDF era vehicles. Protomechs are cheaper and faster to build than mechs for the clans, so plenty of "Z" proto's. Omnimechs can be easily fitted with society tech, but non-Omni's would need extensive refits, so the Non-Omni's were probably thrown in without changes. at most maybe replacing standard ATM's for iATM's.
At the same time, though, one-off designs weren't exactly impossible to come by. While I'm sure some old Hunchback IICs had to be reactivated while missing an AC/20 and side torso, it's hard to think that they never really tried updating them at all.
Then again, IIC "Z" designs may good for a Society fan continuity, where they actually had more time.
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Anyone have designs for glider protos that they've cooked up?
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At the same time, though, one-off designs weren't exactly impossible to come by. While I'm sure some old Hunchback IICs had to be reactivated while missing an AC/20 and side torso, it's hard to think that they never really tried updating them at all.
Then again, IIC "Z" designs may good for a Society fan continuity, where they actually had more time.
i suspect that as the wars of reaving went on, you did see a lot of custom versions popping up due to macguyvered repairs. i was making the point that from everything we have been told, the Society could build a lot of mechs, thus the focus on proto's and their massive use of vehicles. so it is likely that many of the mechs they used were either Omni's they could 'disappear' off the assembly lines and load with their own pods in each cell's operational hideouts, or stuff from the less well picked over Brian Caches. but since they didn't have much in the way of construction ability for mechs it seems unlikely that they'd have much capacity for major refits of the brian cache stuff.
so basically, you might see a few 'ace customs' and a lot of "well we don't have X, but we do have Y" type repairs in the later stages of the conflict, it seems unlikely they'd bother doing extensive rebuilds of non-omni's into society specific variants. expediency and limited resources appear to be the defining traits of the Society's direct action Cells.
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I can imagine that there were a lot of one-off or short-run rebuilds of second line 'Mechs into society models. Chiefly low-level stuff, like swapping ATMs for iATMs and the like, but nothing massive and drastic. And even then, these would have been more of opporunistic cases or rebuilding damaged 'Mechs then actual production runs
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I can see more Royal / SLDFiE vehicles getting the " clan " treatment, eg: swapping older SLDF tech for clan variants... PPC _ER or not, (IS) to ERL + 2 SHS and an extra ton somewhere... LRM-20 (IS) for two clan LRM-15 and more ammo.. a clan STREAK-6 = to an old SLDF SRM-6 in tonnage.
TT
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Anyone have designs for glider protos that they've cooked up?
I do.
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I do.
As long as we get to see them someday...
For Science!
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I do.
Hidden canon designs?
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As long as we get to see them someday...
For Science!
I sure hope so. I'm trying my best to get them made canon.
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I sure hope so. I'm trying my best to get them made canon.
I'd throw down IRL C-Bills to see that happen. I mean as long as the Canon designs don't mount Protomech Autocannons ;)
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I dunno, a Jenner IIC with Protomech ACs is something I'd enjoy.
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Hey, does anybody know if Glider protos can carry bombs? >:D
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Well, technically.... If by bombs you mean the 1.5 ton assault battle armor it carried and then dropped from alt. 5, then yeah! Joking aside, I believe so.
TT
Which gives an idea... Horrid as it sounds, picking up enemy non- jumping BA and "DFA"ing them unto their friends below as impromptu bombs. What kind of kinetic damage would this cause?
Furthermore, another idea crosses my sick mind, Glider Proto Nova's... Not saying Slyphs here, but Toads and Gider Protos.
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Hey, does anybody know if Glider protos can carry bombs? >:D
no.
Bomb hardpoints are automatic on fighters, and under optional rules, VTOl's.
Bomb bays are only available to dropships, smallcraft, fighters, and LAM's.
the bomb rack seen on the sylph BA is only available to BA.
none of these are available for protomechs
this does not preclude that changing in the future, but it seems unlikely they would. bombs aren't really all that useful unless you have full flight. the sylph BA has a hard time using its bomb rack without dying in the process, and LAM's struggle to use non-Rocket launcher non-TAG bomb options while in airmech mode.
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Does anyone have any custom Society designs (such as Omni variants) that they would like to share?
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Does anyone have any custom Society designs (such as Omni variants) that they would like to share?
Yes, but I can't
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Yes, but I can't
Custom designs /= canon designs. Unless you're trying to tell us something. 8)
I guess what I was getting at is certain Mechs present on the Society faction list are sufficiently fast enough to be useful for ferrying Protos with MagClamps around, like Hellion, Linebacker or Gargoyle, or at the very least could stand to have a Nova CEWS slapped on them.
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Does anyone have any custom Society designs (such as Omni variants) that they would like to share?
Well, beside the vehicle thread I posted a while back, (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=58302.0) I've got a few omnimech Z configs.
I posted some of my Society omniconfigs over here. (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=61178.msg1411555#msg1411555)
Also, Prince of Darkness made a good 8T protomech (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=44647.msg1304093) that could totally work as a Society Gorgon Z.
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Custom designs belong in the Fan Designs forum, please.
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Custom designs belong in the Fan Designs forum, please.
Done.
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Does anyone have any custom Society designs (such as Omni variants) that they would like to share?
Mine are for MY AUverse... it evolves WoB-Society forces.
I might PM you a few later this week after I relocate them Crow...
TT
;)
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Custom designs /= canon designs. Unless you're trying to tell us something. 8)
I guess what I was getting at is certain Mechs present on the Society faction list are sufficiently fast enough to be useful for ferrying Protos with MagClamps around, like Hellion, Linebacker or Gargoyle, or at the very least could stand to have a Nova CEWS slapped on them.
They're custom designs that I'm trying to get made canon designs.
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Good luck. Step one of that process is to make it to some level of the volunteer circles. The only one of those that isn't invitation only(to the point that asking tends to automatically disqualify you forever) is the Demo Agents.
Step two is to wait until they ask for design submissions, usually geared towards a specific upcoming product. There are no blind submissions, and it has been at least a few years since the last call for designs, and if you've heard of any new Reaving-era products coming up, you know more than me.
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It was part-way through the process, then it got stopped for reasons not specific to it. Then there was maybe a way to work it in, but that fizzled out. Still trying to find somewhere to make it happen.
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... and only NOW does it click in my head that you've already got a Beemer. :-[
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Haha, I figured you were simply explaining the process for everyone on the outside, just so no one expects anything to come soon
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...sure. Let's go with that. :)
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[EDIT]
Moved here. (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=58889.msg1412268#msg1412268)
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Much like Fan Designs, Fan Rules go in... C:-)
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Much like Fan Designs, Fan Rules go in... C:-)
Derp, got myself mixed up with the Society Toybox (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=58889.0) thread.
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They're custom designs that I'm trying to get made canon designs.
Please try to shoehorn a Society glider proto in there. Maybe one that doesn't suck like the Hobgoblin. That would be a kindness.
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Please try to shoehorn a Society glider proto in there. Maybe one that doesn't suck like the Hobgoblin. That would be a kindness.
I'd like to see some vehicles with Nova CEWS installed as well. Maybe even a VTOL.
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They're custom designs that I'm trying to get made canon designs.
New units, or variants of existing units? If the latter, did you have to get art commissioned by Plog? ;D
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Yeah, got most of all of that in some form or another. But like I said, various things have derailed it for the timr being.
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Yeah, got most of all of that in some form or another. But like I said, various things have derailed it for the timr being.
Godspeed! For science!
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Yeah, got most of all of that in some form or another. But like I said, various things have derailed it for the timr being.
Good luck!
Maybe even for an XTRO Wars of Reaving ... would be 8)
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Does it seem out of character for Society forces to use Nighthawk PAL suits? Or what sort of infantry would you use?
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Does it seem out of character for Society forces to use Nighthawk PAL suits? Or what sort of infantry would you use?
i could see some Cells using them, since i'd imagine there would be a fair number left in the brian caches (stealthy commando BA being not very clanlike). but i'd imagine they'd be a case of "we can't really get much else".. since Nighthawk's really aren't ideal for battlefield use. especially in a 3 suit Un.
honestly i'm surprised we didn't get some new Society battlearmor, or at least some new Society battlearmor variant.
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Does it seem out of character for Society forces to use Nighthawk PAL suits?
Actually that does seem like a good idea, they did have asses to Caches and data, while at the same time most of their infantry likely won't have the right phenotype for Elemental Suits. So there is means and motivation.
Or what sort of infantry would you use?
Conventional: Clan Space Marines & Clan Motorized Point (LRM)
BA: Suits made for normal infantry and cockpit based suits (Buraq, Warg)
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Headhunter Toads, if any. Older Salamanders maybe some Standard, but not much.
More Mutagen Grunts the anything else.
TT
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they did have asses
Oops typo: Access...
TT
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Actually I was thinking of giving Nighthawks infantry support TAG to spot for artillery or for covert ops (sneak in and hack into the Clan firebase, destroy the HPG, sabotage the power plants, that sort of thing). I wasn't considering using them in a stand up fight.
Headhunter Toads, if any. Older Salamanders maybe some Standard, but not much.
More Mutagen Grunts the anything else.
What's the best idea you have to to get the most mileage out of the mutagrunts? Mauser IIC between the hands? Inferno SRMs?
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Damage or Survivable?
TT
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PBI--> Damage
BA--> Survivable
You can always find more willing test subjects to turn into Mutagrunts
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I can think of that the Society could not recruit many people of the Elemental genotype. These sem to be very conservative and loyal to the Way of the Clans.
Furthermore, maybe their Super Elementals were not ready for the fight, because neither the new bred nor the new BAs were ready.
And third, it seems that TPTB did not want to get to much new technologies introduced into the mess the WOR was.
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Does anyone have any ideas of weaponized support vehicles for Society/bandit forces?
Something that might mount fluid gun or sensor dispenser, perhaps? I know that there's already the Mech mortar Flatbed truck and there are those Operation Klondike designs as well, although I don't know how I feel about them.
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Does anyone have any ideas of weaponized support vehicles for Society/bandit forces?
Something that might mount fluid gun or sensor dispenser, perhaps? I know that there's already the Mech mortar Flatbed truck and there are those Operation Klondike designs as well, although I don't know how I feel about them.
The Mech mortar Flatbed truck is pretty good, but as artillery it follows the rule: 'the more you bring, the more effective it is'.
But with advanced SV I usually think concealed carriers or mobile bases:
Cargo train with hidden VTOL platforms
Oil-tanker with internal yard
Permanently air-borne fixed-wing base
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Does anyone have any ideas of weaponized support vehicles for Society/bandit forces?
Something that might mount fluid gun or sensor dispenser, perhaps? I know that there's already the Mech mortar Flatbed truck and there are those Operation Klondike designs as well, although I don't know how I feel about them.
Well... >:D
I've made a fun unit:
Burnin' Hell Double Sept.
Recon Trey:
Stormcrow Z
Viper Z
Mist Lynx Z
Battle Trey:
Summoner Z
Summoner Z w/ Resgate Un ( 3 (P)AL )
Timber Wolf Z
Attack Trey:
Osteon G w/ Resgate Un ( 3 (P)AL )
Septicemia E w/
Septicemia F
Assault Trey:
Turkina Z
Osteon B
Osteon C
Tank Un:
2x Royal Rhino
2x Royal Puma-005b
2x Royal Von Luckner
1x Pollux ADA Heavy Tank
Infantry Un:
3x Fast Recon Hover Infantry ( 3x 20 Troopers or 4 Squads of 5 each! )
Liberal use of Fire based A4 and Inferno ammunitions approved! :flame:
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Where's the support vees Crow was asking about?
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Where's the support vees Crow was asking about?
Tank Un:
2x Royal Rhino
2x Royal Puma-005b
2x Royal Von Luckner
1x Pollux ADA Heavy Tank
Again, liberal use of Fire making ammo in progress.
Which is why I gave him 2 Un of Resgate (P)AL... go with Spotter if you prefer, has LTAG and is FIREPROFF!
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Those are combat vees. He was asking about support vees.
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IMO this is a question would answer with "Do as you like it!".
Very likely that they would use such units, I even think the Warrior caste would do this either, especially those warriors left behind on plants for years without support.
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Does anyone have any ideas of weaponized support vehicles for Society/bandit forces?
Drones with booby traps.
They should be trivial for the high-tech Society to field.
And they preserve the Society's limited military manpower.
And they prey on Clan warrior prohibitions against targeting civilian targets (at least in the early going).
Also, check out the Brunel Dump Truck, which was modified by various Pentagon powers into AC/20 and LRM-20 variants.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Brunel (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Brunel)
If the SLDF found room to bring Brunels or their production capability on the Exodus, you can probably justify any canon support vehicle in the Homeworlds that was both practical (e.g.., no luxury or racing vehicles) and existed before the Exodus.
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Or don't forget the Voidseekers...
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Would the society really go for drones?
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With how many resources they poured into projects to minimize the Warrior Caste's numerical superiority, and maximize the capabilities of their own men? I'd say for certain they would. You could argue that they were trying to do similar with the Synaptic Project and Feralize, just using cognitively-limited humans instead of computer systems as drones...
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Despite their doing quite a bit to minimise the manpower, there's no evidence they looked at drones at all, using humans they didn't care about where the Republic or WoB would use robots/drones to avoid wasting those they value. I would call it a cultural blind spot. They are still a Clan society after all, with the inherent distrust of anything involved in the fall of the Star League, such as the Caspar drones.
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Would the society really go for drones?
Canonically they did not.
But logically it makes a lot of sense.
The Society had (or should have had) the technical know-how.
The Society lacked the Warrior Caste's obvious prejudice against robotic alternatives to Clan warriors.
And the Society is actively seeking to exploit the Warrior Caste's assumptions and prejudices.
I assume Rome et al. did not apply drones to the Society either because they did not think to do so or because drones are less interesting game- and fiction-wise than human warriors.
But logically, drones and the Society make sense. Their numerical inferiority gives them a strong impetus to do so.
And to the extent that the Society lacked significant production facilities for dedicated drone manufacturing, then modifications to existing support or combat vehicles to turn them into drones would be the next best thing.
You might not want to apply massed drones to an entire Society campaign. But coming across a Society cell that is drone-happy would make for an interesting game or two. Or a small Society drone used to target for indirect iATM and Arrow IV could add a dimension to Society games.
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Maybe if it was a pod-able drone-brain, then they could rapidly build up from cached material and salvage.
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I've thought a few times about drones but forgot about Booby Traps. That's the perfect use for them. Society is about asymmetric warfare. Just strap a Booby Trap on any support vehicle you like and wait for the elite star to march through some narrow terrain and detonate. The amount of resources used is minimal, although this sort of trick would likely only work a few times before the Trueborns caught on.
If you're thinking Drones like the Revenant, I think that's going about things wrong as it's still a "stand up" fight and doesn't quite mesh with the whole asymmetric warfare part. Maybe drone operated SLDF vees with Nova CEWS might work though...
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Once again, remember that the Society had limited time and resources. The uprising was something thrown together in a hurry in response to Andrews' insanity. They may not have had access to Drone tech in the first place, or not had the time or resources to bring a system even to limited production.
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plus it is worth pointing out too that drone tech actually doesn't reduce the number of warriors you need. because each drone requires an operator to sit at a drone controller and run it remotely. and for combat drones you need combat trained pilots. all drone tech does is move that pilot out of the unit itself and into a centralize location a bit farther from the actual shooting.
now, a full on Robotic Cockpit system like the WOB Revenants and SDS's Blackwasp and Voidseekers used would remove the need for warriors. but those are a lot harder to develop.
and i doubt that the Society had a lot of time to develop drone systems for most things either.
sadly the Hi-Scout (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hi-Scout) with its PathTrack and Napfind drones was a post-exodus development in the IS. (introduction date of 3000)
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Besides which, this is the Society we're talking about. It's a lot easier for them to fill vehicle crews with drug-addled Bandits, civillian conscripts, warrior washots, slaves or whatever else. The workforce allready exists without the added expense of developing an advanced piece of tech to do the same job
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Once again, remember that the Society had limited time and resources. The uprising was something thrown together in a hurry in response to Andrews' insanity. They may not have had access to Drone tech in the first place, or not had the time or resources to bring a system even to limited production.
Most of the Society's tech is an extrapolation of already developed technology developed in secret. Drones would have basically needed to be developed from (almost) nothing, and automated warrior technology would have been difficult to hide or explain away.
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If you're thinking Drones like the Revenant, I think that's going about things wrong as it's still a "stand up" fight and doesn't quite mesh with the whole asymmetric warfare part.
I'm thinking drone support vehicles with booby traps strapped to them. Simple, cheap, available, fast to field, and exploits Warrior Caste prohibitions against civilian targets and the Society's superior E/W capabilities.
Maybe drone operated SLDF vees with Nova CEWS might work though...
That could work too, but would be more involved.
A car can be controlled with an RC system and some servos and linkages. (Just watch Mythbusters.) With no weapons -- only a bomb -- all you have to do is drive it close to an omnimech and press "boom".
A tank requires more. Its tracking/targeting/firing systems have to either relay data back to the operator or have some level of AI running them.
The Society certainly has the technical know-how to do the latter, but the former should require less time, resources, and facilities.
Once again, remember that the Society had limited time and resources.
I think that argues in favor of the Society using support vehicle drones with bombs. They certainly cost less and take less time to field than developing or manufacturing a new combat vehicle. And they might even be faster and cheaper than pulling an SLDF tank out of a Brian Cache and restoring it to operability.
They may not have had access to Drone tech in the first place,
There's drone tech and then there's DRONE TECH.
Caspars and Voidseekers are DRONE TECH -- AI-ish systems that could operate independently. Maybe the Society had preserved that SLDF technology.
But even if not, there's still canon drone tech like the Hi-Scout, NapFind, and PathTrack or the Bullet Suicide Drone -- remote-controlled systems run by a human operator. Even if the SLDF's AI systems were lost to the Society, remote controls were certainly well within the Society's technical capabilities.
not had the time or resources to bring a system even to limited production.
With support vehicles, I'm not talking about a factory production line. The Society didn't create one even for crewed combat vehicles.
I'm talking about modifying civilian cars and trucks in garages so they can be operated remotely and blown up.
plus it is worth pointing out too that drone tech actually doesn't reduce the number of warriors you need.
Sure it does.
If we're talking about AI, there's no human operator involved.
If we're talking about remote-controlled combat vehicles, you need one operator instead of several crewmen and that operator will probably survive more battles than those crewmen.
If we're talking about remote-controlled and -detonated support vehicles, you don't even need a operator with training on military systems. You just need a laborer or tech who can drive a civilian vehicle remotely and press the red button that goes "boom".
Besides which, this is the Society we're talking about. It's a lot easier for them to fill vehicle crews with drug-addled Bandits, civillian conscripts, warrior washots, slaves or whatever else. The workforce allready exists without the added expense
A human crew is always going to cost more to house, feed, and train (even in abject poverty) than an RC system and one operator.
of developing an advanced piece of tech to do the same job
Most of the Society's tech is an extrapolation of already developed technology developed in secret. Drones would have basically needed to be developed from (almost) nothing
In TacOps, "Drone (Remote) Systems" are available to the Clans and are mid-tech (rating C). Based on this, the Society should not have to develop much of anything.
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What's logical isn't necessarily what happened. Despite it being a good idea, we have zero evidence that the Society used drones in any way, and all the evidence they used humans for everything. Therefore, we have to assume they didn't bother with drones, for some reason or another.
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What's logical isn't necessarily what happened. Despite it being a good idea, we have zero evidence that the Society used drones in any way
Sure. That's why I wrote:
Canonically they did not.
But we're not talking about canon. Crow wanted to know how the Society _could_ have leveraged support vehicles in combat (which we have no evidence of either). I offered remote drone systems and boobytraps as perhaps the simplest, cheapest, fastest, most straightforward way to do so.
Therefore, we have to assume they didn't bother with drones, for some reason or another.
The Society had the technical capability, strong motives, and asymmetric doctrine to employ drones. The only reasons for the Society to not have employed drones are external: the writers didn't think of it or the writers reasoned that too much drone use doesn't fit with the flavor of the universe (which I would generally agree with).
If remote-controlled hovertruck bombs don't fit your concept of the universe, that's fine. I'm just opening up a very logical and likely possibility for home play. What Crow or I do with our Society cells isn't what you have to do with yours.
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Natasha Kerensky 100% agree.
What's logical isn't necessarily what happened. Despite it being a good idea, we have zero evidence that the Society used drones in any way, and all the evidence they used humans for everything. Therefore, we have to assume they didn't bother with drones, for some reason or another.
Dat headcanon tho. We have only one source: WoR, which is written from the warrior's perspective and as such shouldn't be considered 100% reliable or complete.
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The Society had both the technical capability and strong motives to employ drones. The only reasons for the Society to not have employed drones are external: the writers didn't think of it or the writers reasoned that too much drone use doesn't fit with the universe.
It is mostly because the geneticists were in control of the Society during WoR. Like the warriors, these were heavily invested in human abilities, and thus likely have a bias against drones. They have spend generations to create the best warriors and were quite willing to go very far to make even better ones.
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I'd say they could have made use of suicide implants with attached highly explosive prosthetic implants to warriors and civilians that lost limbs, drugged them out of their minds and " reprocessed " their will to be more fanatical. Not only this, but give them Body Armor that is made up of cheap materials also packed with more explosives, carrying Satchel Charges. Hell even the civilians would wear shaped charged clothing when outdoors near warriors, waiting for the moment... a comm call or sound they were taught.
TT
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It is mostly because the geneticists were in control of the Society during WoR. Like the warriors, these were heavily invested in human abilities, and thus likely have a bias against drones. They have spend generations to create the best warriors and were quite willing to go very far to make even better ones.
In principle, maybe. In practice, quite the opposite.
The Society employed lots of very genetically flawed and drug-addled soldiers, too. And washed-out warriors and freebirths. They even threw other castes into battle.
Clearly the Society's geneticists were willing to forgo any perfect-warrior-uber-alles principles in favor of overthrowing the warrior caste and (later) pure survival.
So the Society had no prohibition that would have kept them from employing remote-controlled drones.
And in keeping with their tactical doctrine, they would have sought to exploit that warrior caste prohibition.
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I'd say they could have made use of suicide implants with attached highly explosive prosthetic implants to warriors and civilians that lost limbs, drugged them out of their minds and " reprocessed " their will to be more fanatical.
Sure, but now we're copying Manei Domini flavor. I don't want my Society cell tasting like toasters... ;-)
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In principle, maybe. In practice, quite the opposite.
The Society employed lots of very genetically flawed and drug-addled soldiers, too. And washed-out warriors and freebirths. They even threw other castes into battle.
Clearly the Society's geneticists were willing to forgo any perfect-warrior-uber-alles principles in favor of overthrowing the warrior caste and (later) pure survival.
So the Society had no prohibition that would have kept them from employing remote-controlled drones.
And in keeping with their tactical doctrine, they would have sought to exploit that warrior caste prohibition.
It isn't about the perfect warrior, it is about thinking in warriors.
Both from a cultural and professional perspective they won't consider drones.
But if they have to, they will find and use ways to make people into their warriors, disposable or not.
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Sure, but now we're copying Manei Domini flavor. I don't want my Society cell tasting like toasters... ;-)
While Manei Dominei has it's merits, I quite prefer the flavor of Genecaste, to be honest. And let's face it, doesn't all of the mutagentic virotherapy stuff the Society use almost reek of collusion with the Genecaste?
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While Manei Dominei has it's merits, I quite prefer the flavor of Genecaste, to be honest. And let's face it, doesn't all of the mutagentic virotherapy stuff the Society use almost reek of collusion with the Genecaste?
Similar tech, but with radically different goals. But if you're talking about Genecaste Wolverines trying to subvert the Society to destroy the homeworld Clans, then I'm on board with that. I like the silly notion that both Blakist Wolverines and Genecaste Wolverines were obsessed with destroying the Clans, without being aware of the other's plans.
In regards to booby traps, bombs and minefields on static locations were used by the Society, at least in the Inner Sphere. So if drones weren't their forte, things like roadside bombs may have been used. We're just lacking in examples.
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It isn't about the perfect warrior,
Earlier you wrote:
They have spend generations to create the best warriors and were quite willing to go very far to make even better ones.
Regardless of the adjective, washouts, drug addicts, and mutated sub-humans are not the "perfect", "best", or any other kind of superior warrior.
These were all ways to bypass the traditional, time- and resource-intensive routes -- eugenics, artificial wombs, and intensive training and testing -- that the Clans took to create better warriors. So clearly the Society was _not_ willing to go far to create better warriors, at least not under the pressures of the Wars of Reaving.
Maybe they intended to do differently after the WoR, but during their wartime existence, members of the Society took whatever shortcut they could avail themselves of to create military force, even when those shortcuts resulted in monsters.
it is about thinking in warriors.
If the Society was "thinking in warriors", then the bulk of their forces would not have been composed of SLDF tanks crewed by non-warrior caste members.
Both from a cultural and professional perspective they won't consider drones.
I think the evidence shows the exact opposite. The Society did _not_ worship at the altar of the Warrior Caste, and because of that, they were willing to do whatever necessary to field a military capability during the WoR. Drones fit well with this mentality.
If you're willing to take on the expense, time, cruelty, and horror of combat drugs and mutagenic virotherapies, why wouldn't you also have your weapons developers field some cheap drones en masse?
And let's face it, doesn't all of the mutagentic virotherapy stuff the Society use almost reek of collusion with the Genecaste?
Assuming the Genecaste is real at some level, it seems pretty easy to draw a line between them and the Society.
Of course, maybe the Genecaste rumors resulted from encounters with test subjects at a couple remote Society research facilities.
Or maybe the Genecaste rumors and even the term itself were invented by Society members to draw attention away from themselves.
In regards to booby traps, bombs and minefields on static locations were used by the Society
This is a good point. In terms of tactical doctrine, there's not much difference between a mine and a bomb on a remote controlled civilian truck.
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As said, there's no evidence at all that the Society had either a) access to drone tech or b) any interest in using it.
Let's look at these two points. The Clans had abandoned drone tech centuries ago. They had no active examples of the tech, and did not seem to ha e preserved samples either. It has been commented several times that Clan society is very labour intensive with little use of automation. For the Society to deploy Drone tech, they would need to in essence redevelop it from the ground up, which does not fit with their use of technology nor their deployment of it.
Despite all their advancements, every piece of tech the Society used was one of three things. Either it was tech currently being used by the Clans, tech that was under development by the Clans or something that was a direct outgrowth of existing actively used tech. Drone technology is none of these.
The second thing is, as said, the Society had plenty of human resources to draw from. They had an ample supply of warm bodies that they could throw into battle and easily replenish. They made use of canon fodder infantry and essentially expendable vehicles where the human pilot/crew were the most easily replaceable part, often pumped full of drugs. They sent their experimental Protomechs into battle with pilots hopped up on Feralize, which turned them into mindless berserkers. The replacement (and care and feeding) of their crews was not an issue.
So why would the Society spend their all ready limited time and resources to develop a technogy that their readily replaceable expendable crews were all ready doing?
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Earlier you wrote:
Regardless of the adjective, washouts, drug addicts, and mutated sub-humans are not the "perfect", "best", or any other kind of superior warrior.
These were all ways to bypass the traditional, time- and resource-intensive routes -- eugenics, artificial wombs, and intensive training and testing -- that the Clans took to create better warriors. So clearly the Society was _not_ willing to go far to create better warriors, at least not under the pressures of the Wars of Reaving.
Maybe they intended to do differently after the WoR, but during their wartime existence, members of the Society took whatever shortcut they could avail themselves of to create military force, even when those shortcuts resulted in monsters.
If the Society was "thinking in warriors", then the bulk of their forces would not have been composed of SLDF tanks crewed by non-warrior caste members.
I think the evidence shows the exact opposite. The Society did _not_ worship at the altar of the Warrior Caste, and because of that, they were willing to do whatever necessary to field a military capability during the WoR. Drones fit well with this mentality.
If you're willing to take on the expense, time, cruelty, and horror of combat drugs and mutagenic virotherapies, why wouldn't you also have your weapons developers field some cheap drones en masse?
I don't know how, but you are completely misinterpreting my point.
They come from a culture that has no respect for drones, but did respect their own work.
If you were to suggest drones to them, they will likely laugh at you or shoot you for the insult.
And when they had to rebel they either, used their expertise to 'enhance' people, or just throw more people at the problem.
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Y'all taking this way too seriously. For SCIENCE!
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As said, there's no evidence at all that the Society had either a) access to drone tech...
... the Society to deploy Drone tech, they would need to in essence redevelop it from the ground up
TacOps gives the Clans access to drone (remote) technology. Therefore, the Society had access to it. The Society did _not_ have to develop drone technology, at least the remote control variety, from the ground up.
The Society could also have had access to more advanced drone technology. The Society produced equipment, like the CLPS on the Cephalus, that was thought lost with the Star League. It's possible that, like CLPS, the Society had preserved the SLDF's AI-controlled drone technology used on the Caspars and Voidseekers.
The former is canon. The latter is speculative.
The second thing is, as said, the Society had plenty of human resources to draw from.
Quite the opposite. As Herb commented a while back, the Society had small and irregular infantry formations precisely because they did _not_ have plenty of human resources to draw from.
They come from a culture that has no respect for drones
The Warrior Caste had no respect for drones because, if taken far enough, drones could replace the warriors' role in Clan culture.
But the Society had no respect for the Warrior Caste and was opposed to its rule. The Society did _not_ share the values of the Clan culture they came from. The Society wanted to supplant and replace the Warrior Caste.
Drones play right into that.
Y'all taking this way too seriously. For SCIENCE!
FOR SCIENCE!
Again, it's whatever folks like for their own games. If drones don't fit with your Society or BT headcanon, then don't use them.
But I think the argument that no Society cell would ever, ever use drones goes way too far given what we know about the Society and drone technology in the BT universe.
YMMV...
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The Warrior Caste had no respect for drones because, if taken far enough, drones could replace the warriors' role in Clan culture.
But the Society had no respect for the Warrior Caste and was opposed to its rule. The Society did _not_ share the values of the Clan culture they came from. The Society wanted to supplant and replace the Warrior Caste.
Drones play right into that.
The Society see the Warrior Caste as a tool, and believes that the warriors should know their place, but other then that they both come from the same culture. And historically for them the SLDF defeated the best drones ever made, and the scientists made the warriors better then the SLDF.
There might be an argument for remote-controlled suicide drones, but the Society could get the same effects with either drugged up minions or stationary explosive traps.
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I get the distinct impression that while the Society would have had no problems using drones, that simply wasn't where their effort was focusing.
I think we can agree that during the Wars of Reaving, the Society didn't have drones. Either for lack of resources, lack of effort into that direction, or simply a cultural blind spot, they didn't develop on that technology. I'm personally biased towards the idea that the ones on top didn't feel the project would have been worth their limited resources. I mean, how many named Society leaders do we know? Balzac is the only one that comes to mind, and he was a geneticist. The heavy use of virotherapies and pathogen weapons suggests that a lot of resources went into various biological divisions, which seem to suggest the majority of Society leaders were geneticist or at least more leaning towards the field of biology. That probably led to a resource allocation bias on the part of the Society.
At best, I only think drones would pop up later in some kind of AU where the Society survived wholly or partially the WoR.
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The Society see the Warrior Caste as a tool, and believes that the warriors should know their place, but other then that they both come from the same culture.
Getting OT, but I think there should be much more substantive cultural differences than just which caste gets to lead. Depending on which canon rumor you believe, the Society has been developing in one form or another since Nicky K's campaign to retake the Pentagon worlds -- nearly as long as Clan culture has been in development. And the Society is rooted in scientific reason, evidence, and processes, not military axioms.
If the Society had succeeded, I don't think the Clans would look like the Clans anymore. I don't think issues of property, privilege, and justice would be decided in might-makes-right trials. I don't think the Crusader/Warden preoccupation with conquering/saving the Inner Sphere would still drive politics in the Homeworlds. I don't think there'd even be Clans anymore, as the Society was more loyal to its caste than to a Clan or group of Clans.
And historically for them the SLDF defeated the best drones ever made,
As important and big as it was, I don't think a battle from 200+ years ago would keep the Society from employing a related weapon or tactical doctrine in the WoR.
It's like saying General So-and-So charged up a hill in the Civil War and was defeated to the last man, therefore, the US Army should never seek to defeat an enemy situated on a hill today.
Military doctrine is employed situationally, not absolutely.
There might be an argument for remote-controlled suicide drones,
That was the original argument I made, using support vehicles.
But I could see an argument for combat vehicles modified with remote control drone systems given the Society's limited human resources and the costs of maintaining a vehicle crew.
I could also see manufacturing of small remote control drone combat vehicles in a Society cell dominated or mostly composed of weapons developers, instead of genetic engineers.
Due to precedents like CLPS, I could even see a limited number of AI drones based on Caspar/Voidseeker technology that the Society carefully husbanded in secret.
I think the key to the Society or any BT faction using drones is that they have to lose, as Amaris and the Blakies did. The "bad guys" in BT universe can flirt with Terminator-type capabilities, but they can't take over the universe with drones. The MechWarriors always prevail in the end.
I get the distinct impression that while the Society would have had no problems using drones...
I think we can agree that during the Wars of Reaving, the Society didn't have drones.
Yes, I think that's accurate. There is no canon use of drones by the Society but neither is there anything canonical that keeps the Society from employing drones.
At best, I only think drones would pop up later in some kind of AU where the Society survived wholly or partially the WoR.
I think there is enough access and plenty of reasons for the Society to resort to drones during the WoR in a home-brewed campaign.
FWIW...
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Getting OT, but I think there should be much more substantive cultural differences than just which caste gets to lead. Depending on which canon rumor you believe, the Society has been developing in one form or another since Nicky K's campaign to retake the Pentagon worlds -- nearly as long as Clan culture has been in development. And the Society is rooted in scientific reason, evidence, and processes, not military axioms.
The Society and the scientist caste aren't as isolated from the castes, as you would expect. Not only do they employ people from other castes, they also have quite a few former warriors in their ranks. The shared history and continuous mixing of the castes will ensure some shared cultural opinions. They even shared some of the same excessive confidence that is typical of the Warrior caste.
If the Society had succeeded, I don't think the Clans would look like the Clans anymore. I don't think issues of property, privilege, and justice would be decided in might-makes-right trials. I don't think the Crusader/Warden preoccupation with conquering/saving the Inner Sphere would still drive politics in the Homeworlds. I don't think there'd even be Clans anymore, as the Society was more loyal to its caste than to a Clan or group of Clans.
Yes if the Society had won, there would have been big changes, the Warrior Caste would likely be reduced to competing bloodhouses, with little or no influence over the other castes.
As important and big as it was, I don't think a battle from 200+ years ago would keep the Society from employing a related weapon or tactical doctrine in the WoR.
It's like saying General So-and-So charged up a hill in the Civil War and was defeated to the last man, therefore, the US Army should never seek to defeat an enemy situated on a hill today.
Tactics can be discredited, for example what would a soldier say if you suggest they form an infantry square (Napoleonic) on the modern battlefield?
Yes, I think that's accurate. There is no canon use of drones by the Society but neither is there anything canonical that keeps the Society from employing drones.
The best odds for that will after WoR, as during that conflict the geneticists won't stop fighting and thus be more likely to be killed off.
It would also help if they can get some agents in the RotS drone program.
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Anyone have any ideas for support vees for a Sept which is geared for asymmetric warfare?
Generic support fee to drop remote sensors
Generic support fee to lay mines
Generic support fee to put spray oil slick over a given area
Can anything else think of other dirty tricks in addition to those above? Would you suggest combining these functions into a single vehicle or keep each role separate?
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Also, what would you prefer to use for a cheap TAG?
1) A point of custom Erinyes with 6pts of armor 6/9(12) with Proto MASC and Light TAG
2) Clan Hover Infantry with 16x Mauser IICs and 4x Infantry Support TAG?
3) Something else
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I'd go with an Asshur Arty Spotter, a Donar (recon variant), or a Saytr 4 (7/11, AP Gauss, & a Light TAG).
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Anyone have any ideas for support vees for a Sept which is geared for asymmetric warfare?
Vehicle Annex has all you need.Generic support fee to drop remote sensors
Cortez Explorer, Mosquito Radar Plane, Jonah SubmarineGeneric support fee to lay mines
Fulmar Patrol WiGE, Mosquito Radar Plane, Torrent Heavy BomberGeneric support fee to put spray oil slick over a given area
Saurer-Bucher Fire Engine, Cellco Ranger, Corx Mobile Tunnel Miner, Lama-Deux VTOL, Dixon Law Enforcement Airship, Dixon Firetender Airship, Pompier FireMech, Vampyr SalvageMechCan anything else think of other dirty tricks in addition to those above? Would you suggest combining these functions into a single vehicle or keep each role separate?
Go redundant whenever you can. Most support vees die almost the instant the enemy decides they're worth diverting weapons fire from combat targets.
Rule 1 of support vees: Make sure there's always something more important for the enemy to shoot at.
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Come to think of it...
Can anything else think of other dirty tricks in addition to those above?
Searchlights. Go through Vehicle Annex and look closely at how many units mount searchlights. Now take a few of these to a night ambush, light up your enemy, and let your combat units retain their darkness modifiers. You'll definitely want redundancy here, those floodlight units will attract a lot of fire. Find something crazy fast if you can, knowing that lighting someone up does not actually require a to-hit roll, so you don't care how many modifiers you put on yourself.
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Anyone have any ideas for support vees for a Sept which is geared for asymmetric warfare?
Generic support fee to drop remote sensors
Generic support fee to lay mines
Generic support fee to put spray oil slick over a given area
I'd mount this stuff on the Flatbed Truck from TRO:3060.
It's built to combat vehicle standards, so it doesn't suffer the vulnerabilities of the support vehicle rules.
It's 5/8 speed, so it has reasonable movement against Clan heavy cav.
BV starts at 34, so it's cheap and can be fielded in numbers.
It's on the HW Clan General list in the MUL, so the Society should have ready access to it.
And it has plenty of cargo space for adding these kinds of support weapons to, along with up-armoring, a supercharger, fire control, or other mods.
It's really the BT universe's version of real-world "gun trucks" (which you can wiki).
Can anything else think of other dirty tricks in addition to those above?
Paint/obscurant ammo for fluid guns/sprayers. Negates gunnery skill advantages of Clan phenotypes and technology. A close-range/low-tech way to get some of the same effects as IMP ammo on Society iATMs.
Smoke also comes to mind, especially on vehicular grenade launchers.
Bola ammo also comes to mind, but it's a Spheroid invention for the Narc launcher, so the Society would probably have to independently develop the same idea.
Would you suggest combining these functions into a single vehicle or keep each role separate?
With the exception of remote sensors, I think you could go either way. I could see an Un of seven Flatbed Trucks each carrying a fluid gun, two tons of ammo, two minelayers, and two vehicular grenade launchers. Or I could see an Un of three Flatbed Trucks with two fluid guns each, two Flatbed Trucks with lots of minelayers (if space allows), and two Flatbed Trucks with lots of vehicular grenade launchers (if space allows). It's when you get down into the smaller support vehicle trucks weighing only a few tons that you can't make these tradeoffs.
The key is to use these support vehicles en masse, as their thin armor/vulnerabilities, inaccurate firing systems, and limited weapons tonnage require a lot of bites at the apple to have a significant effect. Some will never make a hit.
I may have already linked to this upthread, but here's my take on modifying a few BT support vehicles to act as low-tech technicals, gun trucks, and portees:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=41700.msg961572#msg961572 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=41700.msg961572#msg961572)
These are all single-purpose, but again, with the exception of the smallest ones, they don't have to be that way.
Hope this helps.
P.S. I'll also plug the drone/boobytrap concept from upthread again.
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Anyone have any ideas for support vees for a Sept which is geared for asymmetric warfare?
Generic support fee to drop remote sensors
Generic support fee to lay mines
Generic support fee to put spray oil slick over a given area
Can anything else think of other dirty tricks in addition to those above? Would you suggest combining these functions into a single vehicle or keep each role separate?
How dirty is dirty?
I can think of many ideas:
Headhunter Elementals
Resgate PA(L) variants
Hover APC, Sensor - we have had this since the beginning of the franchise
Vali - for Arrow launched FASCAM aka Thunder Arrow,
Ballista - same
Chaparral - same, most likely the MG variant to boot
Huitzilopochtli - same
Padilla - same, has TAG
Mobile Long Tom - for LT launched FASCAM aka Thunder Shell
Thor C - for Thumper launched FASCAM aka Thunder Shell
TAV-1 Thumper-ICE - for Sniper launched FASCAM aka Thunder Shell
Marksman C - same
TT
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This hurts, but now I have more use for captured Inner Sphere Unions.... ;D
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=62244.0
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This hurts, but now I have more use for captured Inner Sphere Unions.... ;D
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=62244.0
That's a shame. A damn shame.
Now I want a mech cubicle that mirrors the light vehicle ones, i.e. mechs 50t or less can fit in. This would allow the packing of more ultraheavy protos.
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Can you ask a follow up question just to make sure I'm clear on things? Can a point of Ultra-Heavy Protos fit in a single 'Mech bay?
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Can you ask a follow up question just to make sure I'm clear on things? Can a point of Ultra-Heavy Protos fit in a single 'Mech bay?
I will ask.
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Well, can a point of regular protos fit in a single mech bay? If not, that'll be your answer.
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Well now... looks like any Outpost 3070 refit dropper can now carry 3 Points of Protos, a Star of Tanks and double BA Stars as well...
Oh... juicy!
TT
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Can you ask a follow up question just to make sure I'm clear on things? Can a point of Ultra-Heavy Protos fit in a single 'Mech bay?
We got an answer, it is nly one per bay.
I am so going to use the house-rule for using the spare space for cargo.
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We got an answer, it is nly one per bay.
I am so going to use the house-rule for using the spare space for cargo.
Makes sense, they're in the same weight range as ultra light battlemechs...and there's a thought brewing around that. I dunno what it is right now, will get back to you.
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So wait, Ultra-Heavy Protos can only be transported in Mech Bays? There's no Ultra-Heavy ProtoMech Bay? Can Ultra-Heavy Protos use Light Vee Bays at least? 150 tons for a Mech Bay seems pretty steep, for one Sprite.
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I know, right?
But alas, no Light Vee Bay...
Bright side is you can now Combat Drop them, from close to near Orbit! And if your using a Broadsword, you can now drop off a Point of Svartalfa!
TT
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I know, right?
But alas, no Light Vee Bay...
Bright side is you can now Combat Drop them, from close to near Orbit! And if your using a Broadsword, you can now drop off a Point of Svartalfa!
TT
That's garbage. We need an Ultraheavy ProtoMech Bay which is 100 tons.
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Crow~
Your Clan is ToPing for whatever... standard clan practices is to batchall for the item(s). You don't need to tell them every little unit your carrying. Let's assume you asked for SafeCon and they agreed, now your unit is using a Union C, a captured Outpost and a old Broadsword.
To the enemy, your bearing down with 30 Mechs, 25 BA, 10 Tanks and 4 Aero.
What this means, your really carrying 20 Mechs, 25 BA, 10 Tanks, 4 Aero and 10 Ultra Heavy Protos being carried by the Outpost!... funny thing too the 3070 upgrade carries 10 standard Protos as it's upgrade.... also 10 Mechs -> 2 points of Ultra! No need for Arcadias...
I'm trying to show you that 10 tons is the absolute minimum requirements to use a standard mech bay... all the way up to 100 tons... it'll use less designs, that to be honest, CGL and the new TPTB want to reuse. Meaning very absolute no new designs, including warships and such... their happier when the last are gone...
In a nutshell, it makes perfect sense to carryout a raid without a dedicated bay, which means truthfully, not having to redesign an official recordsheet, when one is already created. Say that it is garbage, just makes no point, even if validated.
TT
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What forces are my Scientist comrades using for their Society Cells these days?
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What forces are my Scientist comrades using for their Society Cells these days?
Whenever I am allowed, this (with proxies): https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=63829.0
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Whenever I am allowed, this (with proxies): https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=63829.0
Stunning work. Also nice to know that you used the Nixe B config I designed. Neat. 8)
One issue I have here is that there was a missed opportunity to flesh out a Society Glider Protomech! :'(
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Does anyone else think that there could be a viable combat use for any of the Resgate variants in Society forces, or am I just smoking too much necrosia?
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Does anyone else think that there could be a viable combat use for any of the Resgate variants in Society forces, or am I just smoking too much necrosia?
Resgate?
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Oh dear.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Resgate
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Oh dear.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Resgate
Now I am thinking about using them as spotters in easily combustible battlefields (infernos+heavy woods or oil-fields).
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Just imagine a raid on a major petrochemical refinery, especially since tiny suits like that are much easier to conceal(or disguise as actual civilian suits) and sneak in to a place...
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Or sprinkle iATM infernos to taste. It's that easy!
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Or sprinkle iATM infernos to taste. It's that easy!
Blanket the area with Arrow IV infernos, then switch over to homing rounds and reveal the Resgate Spotters hidden by Resgate Interdictors. Finish off with anti-mech attacks.
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Blanket the area with Arrow IV infernos, then switch over to homing rounds and reveal the Resgate Spotters hidden by Resgate Interdictors. Finish off with anti-mech attacks.
I have also thought of this. Arrow IV infernos are proprietary Cappie tech though as I recall.
Or would Nighthawks work better than Resgates due to having stealth armor?
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I have also thought of this. Arrow IV infernos are proprietary Cappie tech though as I recall.
You’re right and a strict opponent would not allow. But the technology is based on captured Clan Arrow IV FASCAM samples (a derivative of the Terran Hegemony’s Arrow IV FASCAM rounds from 400 years ago), and it has been around for about two decades by WoR. In my head canon, if the Society can obtain samples of, reverse engineer, and upscale Cappie magclamps, they can surely drop canisters of napalm from their Arrow IV FASCAM rounds.
Or would Nighthawks work better than Resgates due to having stealth armor?
No TAG, and no ECM bubble to hide allied TAG units like the Resgate Spotters. (I think — did not double check hidden unit rules.)
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TAGging reveals a hidden unit.
Conventional spotting for Indirect LRM fire or non-homing artillery does not.
Now imagine a protomech or two with an ECM, hidden... and spread as much as possible within that ECM radius is a few squads of Nighthawks for hidden spotting...and a single squad of Salamanders to make whoever tries to change in and flush out the ECM unit regret their life choices. >:D
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No TAG, and no ECM bubble to hide allied TAG units like the Resgate Spotters. (I think — did not double check hidden unit rules.)
Nighthawks have Stealth armor and Infantry Support TAG with those basic manipulators though
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Nighthawks have Stealth armor and Infantry Support TAG with those basic manipulators though
But no fire-resistant armor like the Resgates.
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But no fire-resistant armor like the Resgates.
Are fire resistant Resgates with ECM hiding in flaming hexes really better than Nighthawk (also comes ECM) and also has stealth armor? I can see advantages of both, but Nighthawks seem like the better suit generally. And it seems logical that the Society has access to both suits given the integral role that the Scientist Caste has had in BA development and access to the original SLDF plans if not vintage suits.
Also, a fun trick with Society forces is that Uns consist of 3 BA, and that's exactly the number of rear mounted locations. You can mount them all in the rear locations so that they don't get squished and (if they mount ECM, like the Nighthawk or Resgate Interdictor) can act like an integral ECM.
Vanilla Nighthawks seem to me to be the best TAG support (likely) available to the Society.
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Are fire resistant Resgates with ECM hiding in flaming hexes really better than Nighthawk (also comes ECM) and also has stealth armor?
I was assuming a scenario that really saturated the mapboard with Arrow IV Inferno, which obviously favors the Resgate for surviving Arrow IV missed shots, moving through hexes on fire, and anti-mech attacks against targets in hexes on fire.
But if the risk of instant death by immolation is limited, then sure, the stealth modifiers on the Nighthawk are more reliable for avoiding enemy fire than whatever random smoke modifiers the Resgate might enjoy.
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I was assuming a scenario that really saturated the mapboard with Arrow IV Inferno, which obviously favors the Resgate for surviving Arrow IV missed shots, moving through hexes on fire, and anti-mech attacks against targets in hexes on fire.
But if the risk of instant death by immolation is limited, then sure, the stealth modifiers on the Nighthawk are more reliable for avoiding enemy fire than whatever random smoke modifiers the Resgate might enjoy.
Oh yes, certainly. Point taken. I suppose in that case, you could just also use ASF-dropped inferno bombs and ignited oil slick deployed by fluid guns if you wanted to really set the entire map ablaze.
Speaking of which. Has anyone ever thought of designing a Protomech with a Fluid Gun? :D
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What we really need is an Inferno Cruise Missile 120.
BURN Map BURN
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At that point you run into the issue that when a weapon gets big enough it can be very hard to light fires with it...because the raw damage trends to completely clear the woods in the blast radius.
On the other hand, I think I just found a good use for a Kalki's single shot, where missing a specific hex isn't likely to be a huge waste...
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At that point you run into the issue that when a weapon gets big enough it can be very hard to light fires with it...because the raw damage trends to completely clear the woods in the blast radius.
Forget the woods, ignite the soil! >:D
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Anyone care to critique my Society force I'm building "Glitch Cell" (which will appear in metal at some point, even if I have to kitbash it). I kind of want to add some support vees here, especially mine layers and sensor dispensers. Thoughts?
- Hunter Killer Protomech Sept
6x Basilisk Q 1
6x Basilisk Q 2
6x Boggart 2
3x Sprite 1
- Protomech Binary (False Flag)
10x Centaur 4
15x Roc 1
15x Gorgon 3
10x Minotaur 3
-Omnimech Sept
2x Cephalus
4x Septicemia
1x Osteon
-Omnifighter Un
3x Batu Z
-Support Trey
14x Vali
6x Pollux ADA
1x Mobile HQ
-Recon Sept
21x Resgate Interdictor (w/ support TAG)
-Fire Trey
9x Salamander
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Well, one thought is that you can swap out the Roc 1s with Roc 4s and drown the enemy in Ghost Targets. That would very much fit into the "dirty fighting" that the Society likes to use, and fit in to the "Glitch" concept of the cell.
Ghost Targets in protomechs are interesting, since they use Gunnery for the GT roll. It's pretty cheap to drop down Gunnery of protomechs, so you can easily ensure that your point will make their GT rolls.
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... support vees here, especially mine layers and sensor dispensers.
The SLDF made multiple prototypes of the Beagle LRRP, which mounts two mine dispensers. They were destroyed, but maybe the Society could bring them back.
Clans have the Saladin (Cargo), with a 17-ton bay that could be filled with mine layers and sensor dispensers.
It would be nice to have an airborne unit with a recon camera for stand-off LRM indirect fire spotting (and finding hidden units). But I don’t know of anything canonical that fits.
Upthread, I strongly recommended modifying the Flatbed Truck from TRO 3060 for this kind of role. It’s a combat vehicle by the rules masquerading as a support vehicle.
- Hunter Killer Protomech Sept
6x Basilisk Q 1
6x Basilisk Q 2
6x Boggart 2
3x Sprite 1
I’m a little leery of so much reliance on melee-range EDP attacks. Some Clan designs can really eviscerate at short-range. Maybe trade some Basilisks for Boggart 1s to retain a stand-off ability to cripple Clan units.
- Protomech Binary (False Flag)
10x Centaur 4
15x Roc 1
15x Gorgon 3
10x Minotaur 3
I like this concept. Alternately, it could be an allied Coyote unit.
The Z omnimech configs also make sense here, especially for posing as a Clan without protos. Maybe a star of each, non-Society protos and Z omnis? Or a Trinary?
I might use some Gorgon 2s in place of the Rocs and Gorgon 3. The pulse bonuses may be useful against faster Clanners or with poor Society gunnery skills.
If you need TAG support here, the Satyr 4 is a good cheap option, maybe in place of some Centaurs. (Full disclosure: That’s also a plug for my one canon design contribution.)
I like Xeno’s Roc 4 suggestion, but your Resgate Interdictors and the Nova CEWS on your omnis can deliver a lot of ghost targets, too.
-Support Trey
14x Vali
6x Pollux ADA
1x Mobile HQ
The Pollux is probably superior in the AA and anti-BA roles, but I like LB-X Carriers for Society support too, if you need variety. They also carry several LRM-5s each for mines, smoke, etc.
-Recon Sept
9x Resgate Interdictor (w/ support TAG)
9x Resgate Interdictor (w/ support TAG)
1x Clan Hover Infantry (w/ Mauser IIC)
Like the handheld TAGs on the Resgates. I love Clan Assault Infantry but they don’t fit the recon role here. Too bad Society virotherapies and combat drugs don’t translate to the BT board game to make Society infantry more interesting.
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The Z omnimechs also make sense because they can be swapped out to "non-Society" configs quite quickly to further cover their tracks.
The Gorgon, incidentally, the the perfect weight to make a custom variant with MagClamps. A Septicemia can carry it without any issue, and even the Cephalus isn't terribly crippled by it, since it already goes so fast.
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The Z omnimechs also make sense because they can be swapped out to "non-Society" configs quite quickly to further cover their tracks.
I agree that using such units as a false flag force with fit the fluff. Of course, if I fill out a force of Z mechs, but then is "cell" gets larger and larger approaching a cluster, and I want something a bit more "ghetto." My intention with this unit is that "Glitch Cell" is non-Coyote (Raven scientists operating out of Circe) and therefore perhaps a bit more resource poor and more Protomech and underhanded-tactic intensive (mines, basements, flaming hexes, smoke, etc). I might even forgo using Mechs and ASF entirely.
The Gorgon, incidentally, the the perfect weight to make a custom variant with MagClamps. A Septicemia can carry it without any issue, and even the Cephalus isn't terribly crippled by it, since it already goes so fast.
I agree, but I'm somewhat hesitant to use customs, unless its infantry or support vehicles. I mean the Society is munchy enough as it is. :)) And while I like the idea of Mag Clamps, in practice I'm actually not a big fan of current designs using them outside of the Minotaur Z, and even then it misses out because the Septicemia is 5 tons to light. The Procyon Z and Centaur Z are simply too fast to make it worthwhile, and the Roc Z and the Hobgoblin trade too much away. Mag Clamps make sense in campaign play of course, when you're trying to minimize your losses between scenarios.
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One last thing
-Recon Sept
9x Resgate Interdictor (w/ support TAG)
9x Resgate Interdictor (w/ support TAG)
1x Clan Hover Infantry (w/ Mauser IIC)
Isn't a Sept two Treys and a command Un? I believe this would mean you should have three Clan Hover Infantry points.
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Yep... he's forgetting that loophole I showed him on May 27th, 2018!
« Sent to: Crow on: 27 May 2018, 16:18:19 »
Society Unit Definition Chart
Unit Infantry/Platoon Vehicle ProtoMech BattleMech Aerospace
Un 3 7 3 1 3
Trey 9 21 9 3 9
Sept 21 - 21 7 21
Avg Exp. Regular1 Regular2 Regular Veteran2 Veteran
1 - Add random mutagenic virotherapy effect for each trooper
2 - Subtract 1 from roll on Random Skills Table (Expanded) (see TW, p. 273)
3 Platoons of Clan Infantry equals: 60-75 Troopers, based on their movement equals a Un, or a Short Star ( 3 points ).
Now two Trey of 1x Resgate Interdictor, 1x Resgate Support ( LMG ) and 1x Resgate Spotter ( that's Light TAG ) and a Un of 3 Salamander BA might come in handy.
Or replace the Un with 7 Bandit-C / Badger-C C config. ( both have a clan LRM10 and carry 5 tons Infantry ). Adding Incendiary LRM fire... backing up the few Septicemia F's / Bowman that are supporting this unit.
( Trey of Resgate, Trey of Septicemia F / Bowman with a support mech and a Un of Bandit-C C. ) This is what I'd run...
TT
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I’m a little leery of so much reliance on melee-range EDP attacks. Some Clan designs can really eviscerate at short-range. Maybe trade some Basilisks for Boggart 1s to retain a stand-off ability to cripple Clan units.
Alternatively, I could additionally use cheap Protos like a Trey of Cecerops to box in Mechs in order to more efficiently deliver EDP attacks
I like Xeno’s Roc 4 suggestion, but your Resgate Interdictors and the Nova CEWS on your omnis can deliver a lot of ghost targets, too.
What do ghost targets do again? I don't remember precisely...
Like the handheld TAGs on the Resgates. I love Clan Assault Infantry but they don’t fit the recon role here. Too bad Society virotherapies and combat drugs don’t translate to the BT board game to make Society infantry more interesting.
Does anyone have any experience using Clan Assault Infantry or something similar?
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What do ghost targets do again? I don't remember precisely...
Well, keep in mind they changed from original TacOps publishing. Check the errata or the latest version of the rulebook to find the latest rules.
Anyway, during the End Phase any ECM can be changed to operate in Ghost Target (GT) mode. This turns off all the regular ECM abilities.
After the movement phases, any unit with ECM operating in GT mode can make a Piloting roll at +3 (e.g. with a standard Piloting 5 MechWarrior, 8+ is needed on a 2d6 roll). If it succeeds, GT is activated. This allows the player to assign a GT to any non-infantry unit within the ECM's range (6 hexes for regular ECM, 4 hexes for Nova CEWS and Watchdog). If the unit is hostile, then all that unit's non-physical attacks suffer a +1 to-hit. If the unit is friendly, then all non-physical attacks against that unit suffer +1 to-hit. This value stacks (so multiple units with ECM can use it on the same target) to a maximum to-hit of +3.
Since Protomechs don't have a Piloting skill, they use Gunnery instead. This can make it pretty easy to get a high chance at GT success, since dropping Gunnery on a Protomech can be pretty cheap.
Does anyone have any experience using Clan Assault Infantry or something similar?
I've used them, plus Clan Heavy Jump infantry. Speed limits them mostly to defensive operations, but holy hell can they be vicious. With an Armor Factor of 2, they shrug off a lot of weapon damage if they have cover. Only infernos and flamers are a real danger to them (well, and artillery). You're also looking at 30+ damage per point, which is insane when you remember that's all in 2 point clusters. Their BV cost puts them up there with Elementals, but if your enemy isn't equipped to properly deal with conventional infantry, these guys create some large no-go zones.
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Intriguing, Xeno, thanks for the tips 8)
How does everyone feel about Dark Caste/Bandit auxiliary forces? Good idea? Bad idea? Cheap cannon fodder or only out of desperation?
I'm very drawn to a mostly Protomech Society force. I just want to be pure! :D
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They're kind of a force of desperation, since discipline will necessarily be quite poor in a bandit force.
I've run Society forces without any mechs. It can be fun, but you put yourself at severe risk. Since a non-mech Society force is mostly combat vees, protomechs, and CI, it's very vulnerable to fire (particularly Inferno rounds). A good counter to this is to bring mechs with iATM launchers loaded with IIW, but then you'd be breaking the no-mech rule for your forces. The other alternative are units with Plasma Cannons, like Boggarts.
In my experience, it seems to work best if you use some ultraheavy protos as your "tip of the spear", with vees providing support. You'll probably want vees with decent speed (5/8 or better) to keep up the momentum. I find the Enyo tank works pretty well for the role, especially given the general crew quality of Society vehicle Uns.
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How does everyone feel about Dark Caste/Bandit auxiliary forces? Good idea? Bad idea? Cheap cannon fodder or only out of desperation?
Pretty much cannonfodder to consume enemy munitions, and if they run out than the Society forces can attack.
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I've run Society forces without any mechs. It can be fun, but you put yourself at severe risk. Since a non-mech Society force is mostly combat vees, protomechs, and CI, it's very vulnerable to fire (particularly Inferno rounds).
I've also considered this vulnerability extensively. Which was my ulterior motive for making this poll about inferno usage:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=60557.msg1389603#msg1389603 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=60557.msg1389603#msg1389603)
Most people don't use infernos/fire the majority of the time (unless you're Weirdo!), but I guess if someone knows you're using mostly combat vees, protomechs, and CI, you're likely to get hosed. Hence, my interest in fire-resistant BA like Resgate and Salamanders to compensate slightly
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I've also considered this vulnerability extensively. Which was my ulterior motive for making this poll about inferno usage:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=60557.msg1389603#msg1389603 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=60557.msg1389603#msg1389603)
It's also why I posted these.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=58889.msg1420072#msg1420072
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Non-canon custom tech is a bridge too far for me. I mean, I even like the idea of omni-Protos but I can't bring myself to field them.
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Non-canon custom tech is a bridge too far for me. I mean, I even like the idea of omni-Protos but I can't bring myself to field them.
Very understandable, I have been busy making normal-tech 'prototypes' for just that case.
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Alternatively, I could additionally use cheap Protos like a Trey of Cecerops to box in Mechs in order to more efficiently deliver EDP attacks
Yeah, that would help ensure that mobile Clanners can’t just back up and keep your Basilisks at 4-5 hexes where they get chewed up before delivering any EDP mods.
But I also worry that because the EDP attack has to be delivered point-blank, that it’s often a death sentence that turns the Basilisk into a one-shot weapon. The nice thing about the Boggarts is that they can stand off at six or 12 hexes with their plasma cannons, maintain some movement modifiers, and hopefully make multiple attacks before they go down.
Like infantry and BA making anti-mech attacks, I think the Basilisks have some shock value and can preoccupy a high-value unit. But they’re rarely going to make a kill on their own and they’ll probably die trying to inflict their EDP modifiers. So I’d also mix in the Boggarts and advanced ATM munitions platforms to ensure the Society gets the targeting, movement, and heat modifiers they so desperately need against the Clanners.
What do ghost targets do again? I don't remember precisely...
Already covered upthread, but with enough ECM bubbles between target and attacker and the right skill rolls, the attacker could be looking at up to a +3 to-hit modifier. (My old TacOps says +4 but I’m sure Xeno has the latest.) Very much in keeping with the Society’s indirect attacks on Clan omnimech systems (instead of only pounding through armor), and with the Nova CEWS, the Society holds an upper hand here. And high-techish flavor to boot.
Does anyone have any experience using Clan Assault Infantry or something similar?
Also already covered upthread. I’d just add that their Clan-grade ER support lasers are longer-ranged than many BA weapons — out to 12 hexes (at a +4) and 8 hexes (at a +2). And they can jump 2 hexes with those lasers (3 if they dump them and rely on their Mausers), and it will take 40 points of damage to destroy the point (20 members with an armor divisor of 2). They are vulnerable to AI weapons like any unarmored infantry. (Given that they’re Elementals, I would assume a latent anti-mech attack capability, but I don’t recall if they actually have that under the rules.)
With the Society’s weirdo organization, you could probably play with “squad” and “platoon” size to enable larger numbers of more dangerous support weapons. The Clan-grade ER _heavy_ support laser shoots out to 21 hexes (+4) and 14 hexes (+2) and does about a quarter more damage the the plain version. But it requires a crew of 3 instead of 2, so to pack in the same number of support lasers, the Society “platoon” has to grow to at least 24 (I think), instead of the 20 in the Clan Assault Infantry Point/“Platoon”.
What would be really interesting is virotherapies and combat drugs that alter BT infantry stats for Society units. I’d like to think that the dermal armor virotherapy would add another armor divisor to standard Clan infantry armor, and that a combat drug could effectively add another by letting the infantry fight through pain and wounds that would sideline regular Elementals. That would be a total armor divisor of 4, requiring 96 points of damage to take out that 24-member Society “platoon”. Exactly the kind of horrifying zombie-ish capability you’d expect out of Society infantry experiments. But alas, no such rules exist in the canon.
How does everyone feel about Dark Caste/Bandit auxiliary forces? Good idea? Bad idea? Cheap cannon fodder or only out of desperation?
Five thoughts:
One, use the Bandit Caste to man the support vehicles you were interested in upthread. Think real-world “technicals” and modify things like the Flatbed Truck from TRO 3060 to deliver mines, remote sensors, mortar rounds, smoke, etc. that aren’t affected by the bandits’ poor skills.
Two, desperate bandits — or the brainwashed bandit subjects of Society experiments — could pilot faster support vehicles in kamikaze attacks. These could be ramming attacks at mech legs or jury-rigged with booby traps (or mix of both). Even something as simple and cheap as a J-37 can be relatively dangerous if its pilot is suicidal. Charge of 50 tons moving up to 8 hexes or an 80-rated engine if booby trapped. Neither requires gunnery skill rolls and only the former requires a piloting skill roll (I think). (The Society version would be the drones discussed upthread.)
Three, supplementary infernos. Some bandit infantry or low-grade vehicles with infernos can tip the enemy’s heat scale into additional modifiers when the Society’s Boggarts and advanced ATM munitions fall a little short.
Four, there are two prepared Clan infantry types in TRO 3058 that are good stand-ins for Society-aligned bandits, one with SRMs and the other with LAWs.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dark_Caste_Bandits (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dark_Caste_Bandits)
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Motorized_Heavy_Infantry (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Motorized_Heavy_Infantry)
Five, Clan Burrock made a resurrection and allied with the Society. Like regular Coyote forces working alongside Society “special” forces, you could have regular Burrock forces doing the same, supported by their “irregular” Bandit Caste forces above. I dunno what the WoR RATs say, but the Burrock forces shouldn’t be as well equipped as the Yotes (fewer omnis and bearing some random damage, for example). But if you want some slightly degraded second line Clan mechs and BA with decent skills in your Society mix, Burrock is a way to go.
Hope this helps.
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Yeah, that would help ensure that mobile Clanners can’t just back up and keep your Basilisks at 4-5 hexes where they get chewed up before delivering any EDP mods.
But I also worry that because the EDP attack has to be delivered point-blank, that it’s often a death sentence that turns the Basilisk into a one-shot weapon. The nice thing about the Boggarts is that they can stand off at six or 12 hexes with their plasma cannons, maintain some movement modifiers, and hopefully make multiple attacks before they go down.
Well the idea was something like, never deploy in open terrain, and first deploy lots of saturation Arrow IV and mines scatter the enemy battle formation. Then attack a straggler with Arrow IV/LRM/SRM smoke rounds, Fluid Gun paint, ECM ghost targets, Plasma/Inferno induced heat, EMP iATMs.... and THEN close in to attack with EDP Basilisk attacks. I intend to use Boggarts more as mid-field interdictors to keep from getting flanked.
A problem I have is that there aren't many iATM units that I like. And I'm adverse to customs. I kind of wish that there was a Procyon with iATMs, that would have been nice. I've mostly gravitated around the Batu Z and Osteon prime as my iATM delivery systems of choice
Hobgoblin - too slow to get in range, not enough endurance
Sprite 3 - ditto, I'd rather take the vanilla Sprite
Mist Lynx Z - with that armor it will last maybe a turn, I'll pass
Viper Z - very mobile, but only one ton of ammo
Septicemia A - meh, it could have been way better
Stormcrow Z - quite acceptable actually
Summoner Z - blow off the left arm and the pilot is cooked
Timberwolf Z - runs too hot to get the most out of the iATMs
Osteon prime - my preferred iATM boat, yes its slow but you enemies will come to you and you have Nova CEWS
Savage Coyote Z - decent, but kind of wish it had more HAG30 ammo, probably an expensive paperweight
Turkina Z - holy death, but too many eggs in one basket perhaps
Batu Z - love this
Sabutai Z - delicious if you can pull it off, but no tail guns makes me nervous
I’d just add that their Clan-grade ER support lasers are longer-ranged than many BA weapons — out to 12 hexes (at a +4) and 8 hexes (at a +2). And they can jump 2 hexes with those lasers (3 if they dump them and rely on their Mausers), and it will take 40 points of damage to destroy the point (20 members with an armor divisor of 2). They are vulnerable to AI weapons like any unarmored infantry.
With the Society’s weirdo organization, you could probably play with “squad” and “platoon” size to enable larger numbers of more dangerous support weapons. The Clan-grade ER _heavy_ support laser shoots out to 21 hexes (+4) and 14 hexes (+2) and does about a quarter more damage the the plain version. But it requires a crew of 3 instead of 2, so to pack in the same number of support lasers, the Society “platoon” has to grow to at least 24 (I think), instead of the 20 in the Clan Assault Infantry Point/“Platoon”.
What would be really interesting is virotherapies and combat drugs that alter BT infantry stats for Society units. I’d like to think that the dermal armor virotherapy would add another armor divisor to standard Clan infantry armor, and that a combat drug could effectively add another by letting the infantry fight through pain and wounds that would sideline regular Elementals. That would be a total armor divisor of 4, requiring 96 points of damage to take out that 24-member Society “platoon”. Exactly the kind of horrifying zombie-ish capability you’d expect out of Society infantry experiments. But alas, no such rules exist in the canon.
It's hard to decide between Clan Heavy Jump Infantry, Assault Infantry and Clan Hover Infantry here. I guess it depends on the terrain
One, use the Bandit Caste to man the support vehicles you were interested in upthread. Think real-world “technicals” and modify things like the Flatbed Truck from TRO 3060 to deliver mines, remote sensors, mortar rounds, smoke, etc. that aren’t affected by the bandits’ poor skills.
Two, desperate bandits — or the brainwashed bandit subjects of Society experiments — could pilot faster support vehicles in kamikaze attacks. These could be ramming attacks at mech legs or jury-rigged with booby traps (or mix of both). Even something as simple and cheap as a J-37 can be relatively dangerous if its pilot is suicidal. Charge of 50 tons moving up to 8 hexes or an 80-rated engine if booby trapped. Neither requires gunnery skill rolls and only the former requires a piloting skill roll (I think). (The Society version would be the drones discussed upthread.)
I really like this idea :thumbsup:
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Bear in mind, aero units are not allowed to use most alternate munitions. Your iATM birds will be limited to the three regular ammo types.
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A problem I have is that there aren't many iATM units that I like. And I'm adverse to customs.
Well, keep in mind that for an omnimech, customs are pretty damn easy to do. And if it's a small swap, that can make the custom a lot easier to stomach. Take some of these, for example. (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=61178.msg1411555#msg1411555) The Summoner I have there makes the thing rather less of a pilot death trap on the arm, while the Mist Lynx is suddenly a lot more survivable thanks to the ability to hit the 4+ TMM values. I don't have it here, but if you dropped the LAMS of the Viper Z you could put in another tonne of ammo, which is a very minor change.
And if you want to use any Society-themed vehicles (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=58302.msg1341568), you're going to have to do some customs, because we never got any Society vees.
Sprite 2 - ditto, I'd rather take the vanilla Sprite
Don't you mean Sprite 3? The Sprite 2 just has an ERLL; it's the Sprite 3 that has the Fusillades.
It's hard to decide between Clan Heavy Jump Infantry, Assault Infantry and Clan Hover Infantry here. I guess it depends on the terrain
Heavy jump is my go-to force, since they have maximum mobility and can keep hitting the +2 TMM.
Bear in mind, aero units are not allowed to use most alternate munitions. Your iATM birds will be limited to the three regular ammo types.
One of the dumber rules in the game, IMO, especially when you intend to do some mud moving. They needed to make special exceptions just to let the ATM even mean anything to Aerospace.
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Well, keep in mind that for an omnimech, customs are pretty damn easy to do.
An easy custom is still a custom. Please bear in mind that some folks stay away from ALL customs as a matter of principle.One of the dumber rules in the game, IMO, especially when you intend to do some mud moving. They needed to make special exceptions just to let the ATM even mean anything to Aerospace.
It is what it is. Unless your group wants to use house rules(another form of custom), not liking it doesn't make it go away.
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Bear in mind, aero units are not allowed to use most alternate munitions. Your iATM birds will be limited to the three regular ammo types.
Wow, that's really lame, but thanks for pointing that out. I guess I'll have to be munchy in other areas to make up for it.
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Does anyone have any ideas for what they would use a Septicemia Z for? (the one with the mobile HPG)
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Does anyone have any ideas for what they would use a Septicemia Z for? (the one with the mobile HPG)
1. Communication between various cells.
2. Use it to perform a EMP attack on the enemy.
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That's very much a strategic unit, or the centerpiece of a scenario. Stop/protect the HPG before it fires, kind of stuff.
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almost forgot.
3. Transmitting a computer virus to an enemy WarShip.
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To send a message to hidden units in space about when to start an attack.
Pre-arranged signal.
TT
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So I'm trying to plan out minis for my Society force, but am coming up with blanks in many slots. Here's what I've got locked in so far:
1st Sept:
Osteon
Savage Coyote
Mad Cat
?? (Probably a second heavy. Likely to remain unknown until Kickstarter stuff comes in.)
Septicemia
Septicemia
Cephalus
2nd Sept
Command Protomech Un
Sprite
Minotaur
Minotaur
Protomech Trey
1st Un
??
??
??
2nd Un
??
??
??
3rd Un
Basilisk Quad
Basilisk Quad
Basilisk Quad
Support Trey
1st Infantry Un
Arrow IV Platoon
Arrow IV Platoon
?? (Must fit in a Heavy Tracked APC)
2nd Infantry Un
?? (Must fit in a Heavy Hover APC)
?? (Must fit in a Heavy Hover APC)
?? (Must fit in a Heavy Hover APC)
Vehicle Un
Heimdall Monitor Tank
??
??
??
??
??
??
Any ideas to fill in the open slots?
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Infantry Uns are 3 Points...
A Heavy Hover carries 6 tons, unless your going old SLDF variant...
TT
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Ah, was unclear. Each point will get its own APC. But the APCs are non-negotiable. It's hard finding a faction that deploys APCs in odd numbers, so I can FINALLY get the 5th hover and tracked APCs my Marians need.
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Well...If I was running this:
3 Points of these: https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Assault_Infantry (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Assault_Infantry) using these as transportation support: https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Indra (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Indra).
But since you are...then how about these instead: 1x Hemdall,2x Marksman ( AC ), 2x Ballista, 2x Royal Burke.
Same speed bump but more firepower at rage.
Ballista acts as the " muscle " of the unit, Burke as the range master while the Marksman ( AC ) provides bodyguard duties. Rushing in with that AC/20 and LL combo... That Heimdall acting as a mobile missile system, an A-Z variant if you will, using iATMs.
TT
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No customs or customization of any kind, please.
And to slightly alter the above lists: The infantry units marked ?? don't all have to fit in the APCs, so long as in total there are an odd number of Heavy Tracked and Hover APCs when all is done.
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For one of your protomech Uns, the Boggart 2 is almost a must.
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For the Protos, I would go with one Un of a Sprite 2 and a pair of Sprite 1s. For the second Un, I would have a pair of Boggart 2s and a single Boggart 1.
For your last 'Mech, what about the Summoner Z? These are Society forces, so having the 8x AP Gauss to backup the iATM 12 should work well as the finisher for the other 'Mechs of the Sept.
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I like the Boggarts idea, but I'd rather my Protos be faster than a pure Sprite Un. Maybe I'll look at Rocs or Centaurs.
I do like the idea of a Summoner Z. That'll depend on what I end up with in the Kickstarter.
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I like the Boggarts idea, but I'd rather my Protos be faster than a pure Sprite Un. Maybe I'll look at Rocs or Centaurs.
I do like the idea of a Summoner Z. That'll depend on what I end up with in the Kickstarter.
The Sprites are slow, but you're talking LRMs and an ERLL, so not exactly short ranged.
Another option is going for a mechanized Un. Minotaur Zs and Hobgoblin 2s would provide some strong punch once dropped off at the party.
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No customs or customization of any kind, please.
And to slightly alter the above lists: The infantry units marked ?? don't all have to fit in the APCs, so long as in total there are an odd number of Heavy Tracked and Hover APCs when all is done.
Fair enough, the ATMs would work well any way.
On the infantry question: they weigh in @ 4 tons each for 20 troopers. So yeah, they can fit as long as your not using the variant that has less transportation space.
TT
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Hmmm... how about 1 Minotaur and 2 Rocs? They can be carried by a Trey of the two Septicemias and any heavy Omni without slowing them down, and can also maneuver just fine on their own if no Omnis are available.
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I do like the idea of a Summoner Z. That'll depend on what I end up with in the Kickstarter.
Problem with the Summoner Z is that it really needs more ammo for those APGRs. Without doing some kind of small custom swap (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=61178.msg1411555#msg1411555), it's hard to recommend it. Picking one of the regular Summoner variants would probably serve a unit better.
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How much does it have per gun? I'm away from my files.
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Eight guns, one tonne (40 shots) of ammo. If all guns fire, it's only got five rounds to shoot.
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Acceptable, given that the Society only beats the Clans when fighting from ambush and quickly withdrawing. Short ammo loads mean you're not tempted to stick around long enough to get killed.
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Hmmm... how about 1 Minotaur and 2 Rocs? They can be carried by a Trey of the two Septicemias and any heavy Omni without slowing them down, and can also maneuver just fine on their own if no Omnis are available.
That could work. Personally I don't like the Roc Z, the Medium Chemical Laser seems like a waste to me, especially given 30 rounds of ammo, but it's not a horrible choice.
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The Summoner Z has only 5 shots for its 8 APGRs, sure, but do you ever think about the implications of a critical hit when the left arm gets hit? The pilot is gonna turn into meatloaf.
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The Summoner Z has only 5 shots for its 8 APGRs, sure, but do you ever think about the implications of a critical hit when the left arm gets hit? The pilot is gonna turn into meatloaf.
That seals the deal. It's so funny I can't *not* deploy it!
As long as at least one Warrior goes down with him, and the Scientists get to poke said meatloaf a bit, it's still a victory for SCIENCE!
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/a504751c-ca14-4ac2-8188-bb73392cb5f9/d4z8kp9-96dfdad3-0d6d-43c3-beba-9a67689b1041.jpg/v1/fill/w_550,h_688,q_75,strp/science__if_you_don_t_use_your_brain____who_will__by_bws_d4z8kp9-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7ImhlaWdodCI6Ijw9Njg4IiwicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvYTUwNDc1MWMtY2ExNC00YWMyLTgxODgtYmI3MzM5MmNiNWY5XC9kNHo4a3A5LTk2ZGZkYWQzLTBkNmQtNDNjMy1iZWJhLTlhNjc2ODliMTA0MS5qcGciLCJ3aWR0aCI6Ijw9NTUwIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmltYWdlLm9wZXJhdGlvbnMiXX0.Tuu31StBA671_l2ARTfTxd-UrKz3myfPevVdwk-NX1o)
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The Summoner Z has only 5 shots for its 8 APGRs, sure, but do you ever think about the implications of a critical hit when the left arm gets hit? The pilot is gonna turn into meatloaf.
That's the other reason I don't much care for it. The Society has issues with getting enough warriors, so you'd think they'd make use of things like CASE II on the APGRs to help reduce the chance that a single APGR getting knocked out cascades into all of them frying the pilot.
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Weirdo, have you ever considered using the Maultier? There's probably loads of them laying around in Brian Caches, and they don't have much in the way of weapons to make them attractive to your average Clanner.
The vanilla Maultier has 3 tons of space and the MG version has 4 tons for infantry, enough for a Clan Jump Platoon
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The problem is that using the Maultier means I'm not using an odd number of Heavy APC minis, one of my primary goals in all of this.
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That's the other reason I don't much care for it. The Society has issues with getting enough warriors, so you'd think they'd make use of things like CASE II on the APGRs to help reduce the chance that a single APGR getting knocked out cascades into all of them frying the pilot.
In the Wars of Reaving book, in addition to their own hidden sibkos from the wilds of Clan worlds, the Society uses a lot of capturing and brainwashing. There's a Cephalus variant with a 'Mech Taser built for that. My take on it is that they've been "disappearing" Clan warriors off battlefields for some time prior to the Reaving and running them through some MK-ULTRA camps, as well as raising their own sibkos. There's a few references in the book to Society warriors being on drugs in battle as well, and in the Wars of Reaving Supplement, it is explicit that the Society is using 12 year old children as ProtoMech pilots towards the end.
What I'm getting is that the Society functions a lot like ISIS or the Lord's Resistance Army except it's run by evil versions of Elon Musk, John McAfee, Timothy Leary, and Neil Degrasse Tyson. They're amoral, not immoral, and everything is a cost-benefit analysis of likelihood of accomplishing the mission versus cost, independent of things like the value of human life. This is even moreso than the Clans. So they're using an army made up of cadets from their own sibkos, brainwashed and drugged-up Clan warriors, bandit outcasts, Smoke Jaguar survivors, disaffected Burrocks, and child soldiers. That last one comes because they're probably too easy to recruit and the Society needs bodies on the front line and doesn't truly care if they come back so long as the Society gets what it wants in the end.
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In the Wars of Reaving book, in addition to their own hidden sibkos from the wilds of Clan worlds, the Society uses a lot of capturing and brainwashing. There's a Cephalus variant with a 'Mech Taser built for that. My take on it is that they've been "disappearing" Clan warriors off battlefields for some time prior to the Reaving and running them through some MK-ULTRA camps, as well as raising their own sibkos. There's a few references in the book to Society warriors being on drugs in battle as well, and in the Wars of Reaving Supplement, it is explicit that the Society is using 12 year old children as ProtoMech pilots towards the end.
What I'm getting is that the Society functions a lot like ISIS or the Lord's Resistance Army except it's run by evil versions of Elon Musk, John McAfee, Timothy Leary, and Neil Degrasse Tyson. They're amoral, not immoral, and everything is a cost-benefit analysis of likelihood of accomplishing the mission versus cost, independent of things like the value of human life. This is even moreso than the Clans. So they're using an army made up of cadets from their own sibkos, brainwashed and drugged-up Clan warriors, bandit outcasts, Smoke Jaguar survivors, disaffected Burrocks, and child soldiers. That last one comes because they're probably too easy to recruit and the Society needs bodies on the front line and doesn't truly care if they come back so long as the Society gets what it wants in the end.
I really like this take. 8)
The problem is that using the Maultier means I'm not using an odd number of Heavy APC minis, one of my primary goals in all of this.
You could always use like 3 Heavy APC minis and an even number of something else Maultier/Svantovit/Maxim C/Badger C/Bandit C/Magi. I agree that Heavy APC is probably the way to go though
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What would all the other APCs be for? I'm so confused...
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What would all the other APCs be for? I'm so confused...
Mines, booby traps, loot. The sky is the limit, really.
Weirdo, I know that you're okay about "custom" infantry platoons, so just use your fertile imagination >:D
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I respectfully request that you keep suggestions to the minis force I said I'm trying to build, and leave out extraneous APCs or whatnot. If I were that rich, I'd just buy a pack of APCs and toss the spare in my bits box.
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I respectfully request that you keep suggestions to the minis force I said I'm trying to build, and leave out extraneous APCs or whatnot. If I were that rich, I'd just buy a pack of APCs and toss the spare in my bits box.
Oh, I thought that you were rich :D
Unrelated, do you know if you can split infantry platoons between APCs? This is more relevant for my question because I want to use an even number of APCs :P
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You cannot, unless you're using the squad deployment rules from TacOps.
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You cannot, unless you're using the squad deployment rules from TacOps.
Well seeing that most of Society forces use advanced rules anyway (not suitable for pickup or tournament play anyway)
I don't see this as an insurmountable problem
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If it works for you, then rock on with Science.
Me, I prefer to stick to platoons, for playability reasons. Moving 3-5 platoons around the table is one thing. 9-25 squads is another thing entirely, even if they are individually tiny. Also, bad memories. Last time I saw squad deployment being used, the guy was going full cheese, with the deliberate intent that his opponent have as little fun as possible. What he did is no longer actually possible, but it still tainted squads for me.
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Oh, I just wanted to fit three Clan Jump platoons into two Maxim C so I wouldn't have to buy 3. I mostly save my shenanigans for Protomechs :))
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That *should* work, though you may find deployments bulky. Recommend you take a very close look at the squad rules, especially for their weights, and rules for consolidating into platoons.
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Okay, I think I've got my Support Sept nailed down:
Command Un:
Sprite
Minotaur
Minotaur
1st Trey:
1st Un:
Boggart
Boggart
Roc
2nd Un:
Centaur
Centaur
Centaur
3rd Un:
Basilisk-Q
Basilisk-Q
Basilisk-Q
2nd Trey:
1st Un:
Ad-hoc Point + Heavy Tracked APC(LRM)
Arrow IV Platoon
Arrow IV Platoon
2nd Un:
Heavy Jump Point + Svantovit IFV
Heavy Jump Point + Svantovit IFV
TAG Platoon + Heavy Hover APC(SRM)
3rd Un:
Heimdall Monitor Tank
Athena Combat Vehicle
Athena Combat Vehicle
Epona Pursuit Tank
Epona Pursuit Tank
Asshur Artillery Spotter
Asshur Artillery Spotter
How's it look?
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Well, my concern is that if your 1st Trey, 1st Un is running Boggart 2s, they're going to be slowed down by that Roc.
Is there a reason you're mixing your protomech Uns? Usually a mixed protomech force is used to provide one design that can punch holes (Roc, Delphyne) and then another that can exploit the holes (Chrysaor, Orc). The Minotaurs can keep up with the Sprite (especially the 3, 4 and Z), but they don't mesh well together regarding range. Sure, you could use the Minotaur 3 for LRM boating with the regular Sprite, but the regular Sprite is only slightly less than 40 BV more expensive; that's a hell of a bargain when you've almost doubled both firepower and armor.
The Arrow IV platoon... is that field artillery? I'm guessing the 1st and 2nd Un of 2nd Trey work closely together, though you might want some more TAG troops linked up to them. The Asshurs can certainly help, but a TAG platoon can worm itself into places a hovertank can't get.
One final concern is the Heimdall. That's a WiE vehicle, and there wasn't much interaction between them and the other Clans, particularly the Homeworld ones. It just feels kind of out of place in a Society force. Have you considered some top-end SLDF assault take instead? Something like the Alacorn comes to mind, especially the III, which you can load up with some fun alternate AC ammo. Shame the Mars (HAG) is 3075...
Otherwise that's a pretty good support unit.
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The mixed Uns are mostly to give more variety in my minis collection. Also, running pure Uns all the time makes me feel...cheap, somehow, like I'm talking the easy way out in my force building. Irrational, but there it is.
I was planning to stick with standard Boggarts most of the time, with the Roc meant as an escort. The Centaurs are a pure group because I really like the Centaur mini and the only other Proto-using faction I play does not get access to any Centaurs, and the Basilisks are by themselves because I'm kitbashing them as B-Q-Bs, and I don't really see those working that well with other types.
The Arrows are indeed field arty, which means only five shots per launcher. As such, I figure three TAGs is enough, four if I include the Cephalus in the mech Sept. I'm usually a bigger fan of unguided rounds and splash damage, anyway.
The Heimdall is a bit weird, but I included it for two reasons. 1, it's on the WoR RAT, and 2, I happened to own the mini and wasn't using it for anything else. All else fails, I could say my cell is part of Etienne Balzac's group down in the Falcon OZ. Much more believable that he'd be able to get ahold of a WiE machine somehow.
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Off topic here, but are there miniatures for the Basilisk-Qs yet? My Society force is disproportionately 'Mechs right now (mostly Septicemias, 3 Osteons, and eventually 3 Cephaluses, plus two Burrocks and a Cauldron-Born), and I feel like I need to round it out with some Protos.
I'm building a Hell's Horses unit at the same time, so my vehicle purchases are prioritized to them. I was also planning on using more Star League era vehicles to represent cache pulls. Would a Behemoth and Ontos be out of place in a vehicle Un?
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There is no Basilisk-Q mini yet. I'm in the process of kitbashing mine out of MWDA Fenrirs, they're the perfect size. Making the head is the hardest part. The tail is fairly easy, as by chance a buddy of mine had a bits pack from Reaper containing several chain weapons. Use a paper clip as the tail's core, and glue the chain on top...perfect.
Both of those tanks appear to be post-League designs, sadly. They'd have to be isorla brought back from the Inner Sphere Jaguar-style. Either that, or fluff your unit as being one of the cells that operated in the OZs, that would make getting ahold of such tanks much easier.
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Off topic here, but are there miniatures for the Basilisk-Qs yet? My Society force is disproportionately 'Mechs right now (mostly Septicemias, 3 Osteons, and eventually 3 Cephaluses, plus two Burrocks and a Cauldron-Born), and I feel like I need to round it out with some Protos.
Unfortunately, no, the Basilisk Q has no miniature at this time. The closest proxy would be the Procyon (quad), but that lacks a tail.
I'm building a Hell's Horses unit at the same time, so my vehicle purchases are prioritized to them. I was also planning on using more Star League era vehicles to represent cache pulls. Would a Behemoth and Ontos be out of place in a vehicle Un?
From a cache pull? Yes, the Behemoth is a 2900s design (the Exodus was in 2780) and the Ontos is a mid 2800s design.
If you're looking for assaults, tanks that might be found in Briar caches include the Alacorn, Von Luckner, Puma, Rhino, and Fury. And keep in mind that a lot of the cache pulls will either be the SLDF standard or the Royal versions.
Artillery units worth thinking about are the Padilla and the Vali, with the latter being quite cheap for its combination of speed (4/6) and deep ammo bins for its Arrow IV.
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There's always the Kokou from TP: Tokasha... it's silhouette is a Burke.
TT
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That's a good idea. Even if they're largely extinct by the time of the Reavings, we're always told that Extinct still leaves room for one or two isolated examples. For all we know, yours could be the very last one in existence. :)
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To be honest, I think using direct fire vehicles in Society forces should be discouraged as much as possible. Using a bunch of Alacorns and Royal Von Luckners is too obvious and you want to avoid a stand up confrontation like this. Use guile, not raw firepower to win.
1) Most "stand and deliver with lots of guns/wall of steel" type vehicles existing in Brian Caches are probably pretty picked over by the Jihad, as they are the most obvious choice for use in second line and solahma forces.
2) Most Clans are very biased against indirect fire, artillery and mines and will generally will not use or be prepared for such tactics. Use this to your advantage. Vehicles that use these weapons are likely to be over-represented in Brian Caches.
3) Judging from the campaign track in WoR:Supp, replacing Society forces is very costly (10 times that of the opposing Clan force). So even though Society places little value on human life, you want to win with a minimum of losses. What's the easiest ways of keeping vehicles from dying? Keeping them as far away from the front lines as possible or out of LOS (e.g. vehicles deploying artillery and indirect fire), or fast (hovercraft).
4) Society vehicle forces composed of conscripts with basic training are going to be mediocre at best. What are ways of getting the most of crews that can't hit the broad side of a barn? Artillery uses lower to-hit modifiers, so does LBX and pulse. Maybe you can even pull of NARC + indirect LRM fire.
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Ahh yes, Narc+indirect LRMs, my favorite flavor of cheese.
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To be honest, I think using direct fire vehicles in Society forces should be discouraged as much as possible. Using a bunch of Alacorns and Royal Von Luckners is too obvious and you want to avoid a stand up confrontation like this. Use guile, not raw firepower to win.
I think you're right, and this is really shifting my thinking on what I'm going to do with my vehicle Uns. Society 'Mechs are generally straight brawlers- the Septicemia Prime slaps, and the D is just a tarted-up Ryoken. The Osteon Prime is a missile boat for all seasons, and the Cephalus just goes and does Cephalus things while everyone else fights. Then there's the Burrock, of which I've got two that I'm using as Sept leader Uns. The Society doesn't have indirect long-range fire support, and that's where a vehicle Un split between indirect fire (Padilla, Marksman, etc) and spotter vehicles (Ripper, Kestrel, Gabriel) makes a lot of sense.
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I think you're right, and this is really shifting my thinking on what I'm going to do with my vehicle Uns. Society 'Mechs are generally straight brawlers- the Septicemia Prime slaps, and the D is just a tarted-up Ryoken. The Osteon Prime is a missile boat for all seasons, and the Cephalus just goes and does Cephalus things while everyone else fights. Then there's the Burrock, of which I've got two that I'm using as Sept leader Uns. The Society doesn't have indirect long-range fire support, and that's where a vehicle Un split between indirect fire (Padilla, Marksman, etc) and spotter vehicles (Ripper, Kestrel, Gabriel) makes a lot of sense.
Society doesn't use the Burrock in its forces. Personally, I would be hesitant to include them. Instead, I would spin off your Burrocks into Dark Caste/Burrock auxiliary forces for twice the fun. Like so:
2x Piranha
1x Hunchback IIC
2x Burrock
- add some random vees and infantry with a desperate, suicidal feel to taste. Boom, instant dark caste force!
In terms of missile boats, the Society has access to everything the SLDF and general Clan has. LRM Carriers, Bulldogs, Rhinos, Hachiman, heck, even Pumas :D
There are a lot more options in terms of artillery, like Vali, Chapparal, Padilla, Thor, Marksman, Ballista Huey, heck, even the Long Tom 8)
In the end, you want your forces to either win with total victory (in which case slower is fine) or be fast enough to get away for round 2.
http://masterunitlist.info/Era/FactionEraDetails?FactionId=86&EraId=14
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Can anyone give me a convincing reason why I should use the LRM flatbed truck over the vanilla Gorgon?
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Can anyone give me a convincing reason why I should use the LRM flatbed truck over the vanilla Gorgon?
Well that is difficult..... the Flatbed truck is slightly faster?
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Can anyone give me a convincing reason why I should use the LRM flatbed truck over the vanilla Gorgon?
For one, flatbeds don't drive their operators insane after a few years...
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For one, flatbeds don't drive their operators insane after a few years...
Says someone who clearly has never seen Dallas traffic.
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Can anyone give me a convincing reason why I should use the LRM flatbed truck over the vanilla Gorgon?
You’ll save over 100 in BV2 with the truck. If the plan is all indirect fire all the time, then the truck is the better bang for the buck. It’s vulnerabilities and terrain limitations vice the Gorgon won’t matter.
The truck also goes 5/8, vice 4/6 for the Gorgon. So if you know the LRM unit will stay in the backfield and you’ll be in clear enough terrain to use that 5/8 speed to keep the range open against an advancing enemy (or keep up with a retreating one), the truck also makes some sense.
But if indirect fire is not the plan or the terrain limits the truck’s ability to retreat/advance or the truck will likely be engaged at closer ranges, then you need the greater mobility and survivability of the Gorgon. You’ll get an ER micro laser to boot.
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Says someone who clearly has never seen Dallas traffic.
New Dallas? :D
You’ll save over 100 in BV2 with the truck. If the plan is all indirect fire all the time, then the truck is the better bang for the buck. It’s vulnerabilities and terrain limitations vice the Gorgon won’t matter.
The truck also goes 5/8, vice 4/6 for the Gorgon. So if you know the LRM unit will stay in the backfield and you’ll be in clear enough terrain to use that 5/8 speed to keep the range open against an advancing enemy (or keep up with a retreating one), the truck also makes some sense.
But if indirect fire is not the plan or the terrain limits the truck’s ability to retreat/advance or the truck will likely be engaged at closer ranges, then you need the greater mobility and survivability of the Gorgon. You’ll get an ER micro laser to boot.
I've also considered this. I was intending on using indirect fire with Narc. Another thing to consider is that if playing by campaign rules (warchest/support points, whatever), getting a Protomech pilot is crazy expensive, whereas a new vehicle crew is pretty cheap. Still, I might save using the flatbed trucks for Dark Caste forces (who don't use Protomechs anyway), to give them a more hit and run, down and out feel. Also I was reading somewhere on this forum that some people interpret the ammo rules for Protomechs to mean that *any* alternate ammo gets half the amount of shots
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Also I was reading somewhere on this forum that some people interpret the ammo rules for Protomechs to mean that *any* alternate ammo gets half the amount of shots
That's a flavor of incorrect I've never seen before. They're still incorrect, though.
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That's a flavor of incorrect I've never seen before. They're still incorrect, though.
I can do you one better. Riddle me this: can infantry use special munitions? More specifically, can motorized Arrow IV infantry use homing rounds?
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Field guns and field arty: Yes.
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Field guns and field arty: Yes.
Good, because I was planning on using liberal amounts of artillery infantry. Because 1) it's not something that the Clans would do and 2) even though Society PBI are basically the equivalent of Evil Rita's putty patrollers on meth, I want to keep them as far from the front lines as possible to extend their already short lifespan.
That said, is a 30-trooper Un manning a Long Tom with Copperhead rounds a bit much?
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Probably not, as they'll likely be running with Gunnery 5.
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Would anyone care to describe their Society base? (see title) I'll come back and update mine in a bit
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Would anyone care to describe their Society base? (see title) I'll come back and update mine in a bit
Which one?
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I need to finish writing up the idea that I had for one which I was going to develop into a fic/XTRO at some point and then... didn't.
The so-called "Midden" was a subterranean lair on Toashka that was located under the ruins of a Mongoose enclave. It was a combination of research facility and refit/repair facility, and wound up being home to a combination of both Society Forces and their Bandit "allies".
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What do you guys think about using masses of cheap units line Cecerops, Gabriel, LRM Flatbed with NARC ammo and Clan Heavy Jump infantry with Mauser IIC, backed up by a few big distracting units like Osteon, Alacorn, Bane 3, Annihilator C2, etc? :D
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Sounds like a party to me. Make sure the big distraction still pairs well with your main force. If they can split you from your big guy or vice versa, you'll likely get defeated in detail.
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What do you guys think about using masses of cheap units line Cecerops, Gabriel, LRM Flatbed with NARC ammo and Clan Heavy Jump infantry with Mauser IIC, backed up by a few big distracting units like Osteon, Alacorn, Bane 3, Annihilator C2, etc? :D
Will the infantry be hiding near the 'Mechs, as to latter surprise the enemies and then crit them out?
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What do you guys think about using masses of cheap units line Cecerops, Gabriel, LRM Flatbed with NARC ammo and Clan Heavy Jump infantry with Mauser IIC
In big enough numbers, this is usually a winning, if very munchy, strategy. You may not even need the big distractions. Cecerops and Gabriels to block and fix, hole-punching from the Heavy Infantry a bit farther out, and massed LRM salvos from Flatbed Trucks behind cover to crit and finish off. Just field enough to cover substantial losses and still get the job done.
Some nits:
— Need some empty Flatbed Trucks or other cheap carriers to get the infantry into range.
— No unit with a Narc launcher is listed.
— Trucks may want to carry some Smoke ammo to cover the approaching Heavy Infantry (and maybe Cecerops/Gabriels) in the initial turns.
— Flatbed Trucks may want to carry some Minelaying ammo to help the Cecerops/Gabriels) block and fix.
— Shamashes may be a better option than Gabriels.
— Flatbed Trucks (SRM) may be an even cheaper way of blocking and fixing than Cecerops/Gabriels/Shamashes.
— This strategy of many small manned units and lots of infantry is not necessarily consistent with Society fluff about limited manpower (but is consistent with subverting the Clans’ one-on-one combat doctrine).
backed up by a few big distracting units like Osteon, Alacorn, Bane 3, Annihilator C2, etc? :D
While fun, again, in big enough numbers on the small units, I’m not sure these big distractions are even needed. And with the exception of the Osteon, their limited mobility makes them vulnerable (with added crit vulnerabilities on the Alacorn).
Be careful about sinking a lot of BV into a few units that can be taken out quickly. They may prove to be a bigger distractions for your forces as your small units get wasted trying to protect them rather than taking the fight to the enemy.
If you want some bigger units, I’d go more with Septicemias, Stormcrows, and the like than 100-tonners. They can still provide solid support and stiffening for the small stuff but can also get out of trouble on their own. The Stormcrow B is arguably the Clans’ best Narc carrier to boot.
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Some nits:
— Need some empty Flatbed Trucks or other cheap carriers to get the infantry into range.
— No unit with a Narc launcher is listed.
— Trucks may want to carry some Smoke ammo to cover the approaching Heavy Infantry (and maybe Cecerops/Gabriels) in the initial turns.
— Flatbed Trucks may want to carry some Minelaying ammo to help the Cecerops/Gabriels) block and fix.
— Shamashes may be a better option than Gabriels.
— Flatbed Trucks (SRM) may be an even cheaper way of blocking and fixing than Cecerops/Gabriels/Shamashes.
— This strategy of many small manned units and lots of infantry is not necessarily consistent with Society fluff about limited manpower (but is consistent with subverting the Clans’ one-on-one combat doctrine).
I might even forego the infantry, but if I did use them, I hadn't given much thought as to transport. Saracen (Cargo), Maultier, Heavy Hover APC would all work fine. To be perfectly honest, I'm halfway tempted to use infantry with support artillery, because it's way cheaper than a Vali, Chaparral, Ballista, Marksman or Padilla. If I went that way, I would care about infantry transport way less when they are dug in at the far edge of the map anyway. I was considering using infantry with Thumper cannons to lay down smoke. Copperhead rounds might also work.
The NARC-sporting unit to be used in tandem with LRM IDF was very likely going to be 2-4 Royal Zephyrs (as mentioned in a different thread).
Also, I was going to use generous helpings of mines, smoke and artillery, of course. I hadn't painted the complete picture of my plans, but assume that I was going to try and pull every dirty trick that I could. Maybe even a Coolant Truck spraying paint or oil slick, who knows.
Using lots and lots of Flatbeds and Gabriels might *seem* incongruous given the Society's supposed lack of manpower, but if you think about the fact that a Flatbed or Gabriel only needs only 1 crew, then it seems a lot more plausible. No one would bat an eye if I used the following vehicle Un: 2x Lightning, 2x Chapparal, 2x Von Luckner, 1x Alacorn = 2*3 + 2*4 + 2*5 + 7 = 31 crew! I could have an entire Trey of 14x Gabriels and 7x Flatbeds = 21 crew and still have 10 less crew that the Un listed above. And if you add Proto taser + EMP iATM and overheat your enemy enough, your untrained hoards can close to point blank on 0/0 Star Colonel Crunch Buttsteak in his immobilized Blood Asp that much easier.
While fun, again, in big enough numbers on the small units, I’m not sure these big distractions are even needed. And with the exception of the Osteon, their limited mobility makes them vulnerable (with added crit vulnerabilities on the Alacorn).
I was almost definitely going with the Osteon here as the big distracting baddy while Septecemias were going to do the real work and Cephalus will spot for NOVA CEWS and TAG.
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I might even forego the infantry, but if I did use them, I hadn't given much thought as to transport. Saracen (Cargo), Maultier, Heavy Hover APC would all work fine. To be perfectly honest, I'm halfway tempted to use infantry with support artillery, because it's way cheaper than a Vali, Chaparral, Ballista, Marksman or Padilla. If I went that way, I would care about infantry transport way less when they are dug in at the far edge of the map anyway. I was considering using infantry with Thumper cannons to lay down smoke. Copperhead rounds might also work.
I could see bifurcating the infantry. Lots of laborers and techs manning lots of artillery at the rear, with a small number of heavy Clan infantry on Saladins (Cargo) representing the drugged up mutants for shock value at the front. Too bad those virotherapies and combat drugs have no impact on BT play.
The NARC-sporting unit to be used in tandem with LRM IDF was very likely going to be 2-4 Royal Zephyrs (as mentioned in a different thread).
I figured but thought you might be going even smaller, like the Odin (Spotter).
Since you’re running spotters with both Narc and TAG, I’d mix some A4 in with the Thumpers. I think the A4 Homing rounds do more damage than the Thumper Copperheads. I think there are also useful A4 rounds (AA, FASCAM, etc.) that may not be available to tube arty.
Also, I was going to use generous helpings of mines, smoke and artillery, of course. I hadn't painted the complete picture of my plans, but assume that I was going to try and pull every dirty trick that I could. Maybe even a Coolant Truck spraying paint or oil slick, who knows.
Seconded.
Using lots and lots of Flatbeds and Gabriels might *seem* incongruous given the Society's supposed lack of manpower, but if you think about the fact that a Flatbed or Gabriel only needs only 1 crew, then it seems a lot more plausible. No one would bat an eye if I used the following vehicle Un: 2x Lightning, 2x Chapparal, 2x Von Luckner, 1x Alacorn = 2*3 + 2*4 + 2*5 + 7 = 31 crew! I could have an entire Trey of 14x Gabriels and 7x Flatbeds = 21 crew and still have 10 less crew that the Un listed above. And if you add Proto taser + EMP iATM and overheat your enemy enough, your untrained hoards can close to point blank on 0/0 Star Colonel Crunch Buttsteak in his immobilized Blood Asp that much easier.
Good analysis. Fair enough on the vehicle crew figures.
I know you’re sticking to canon designs.
But in keeping with making the most of the Society’s limited manpower, I’ve statted out an 8-ton superfast omniWiGE with ferro-lamellor, armored motive system, and enough tonnage left over for an iHeavy Medium Laser and Light TAG and similar loadouts. Basically a high-tech Savannah Master to make use of those Society Pilot Phenotypes that fail to qualify for a Protomech or Aerospace Fighter.
I’ve also statted out a dirigible with dozens of remote control consoles for piloting a swarm of small, hyperfast VTOL and WiGE drones with Booby Traps. Sorta the Society’s version of the V-1 buzz bomb. Again, to make use of injured or failed Society Pilot Phenotypes (or laborers/techs) at the consoles in keeping with the Society’s limited manpower.
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I could see bifurcating the infantry. Lots of laborers and techs manning lots of artillery at the rear, with a small number of heavy Clan infantry on Saladins (Cargo) representing the drugged up mutants for shock value at the front. Too bad those virotherapies and combat drugs have no impact on BT play.
Good call. Would you make the mutants generic foot troopers or give them jump packs?
I figured but thought you might be going even smaller, like the Odin (Spotter).
Nah, it looks ugly! I've always had a soft spot for the Zephyr for some reason.
Since you’re running spotters with both Narc and TAG, I’d mix some A4 in with the Thumpers. I think the A4 Homing rounds do more damage than the Thumper Copperheads. I think there are also useful A4 rounds (AA, FASCAM, etc.) that may not be available to tube arty.
Truth be told, I was considering using infantry A4, Sniper, or even Long Tom. Homing all the way, baby!
I know you’re sticking to canon designs.
As I may have said before, I'm not against customs if sprinkled lightly if they enhance the flavor, one might say. But using customs as the backbone of the main force smacks of artlessness. I want my munch to be canon, thank you very much. :D
But in keeping with making the most of the Society’s limited manpower, I’ve statted out an 8-ton superfast omniWiGE with ferro-lamellor, armored motive system, and enough tonnage left over for an iHeavy Medium Laser and Light TAG and similar loadouts. Basically a high-tech Savannah Master to make use of those Society Pilot Phenotypes that fail to qualify for a Protomech or Aerospace Fighter.
I’ve also statted out a dirigible with dozens of remote control consoles for piloting a swarm of small, hyperfast VTOL and WiGE drones with Booby Traps. Sorta the Society’s version of the V-1 buzz bomb. Again, to make use of injured or failed Society Pilot Phenotypes (or laborers/techs) at the consoles in keeping with the Society’s limited manpower.
Alas, if only we could turn this into a XTRO :'(
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Good call. Would you make the mutants generic foot troopers or give them jump packs?
If the mutants are also drug-addled, then Clan Heavy Foot Infantry. Hard to see them flying straight if they’re in a battle rage.
If they’re just mutants, then maybe Clan Heavy Jump Infantry. I don’t recall any virotherapies that were intended to augment jump infantry. But I could see the mobility-restricting dermal armor mutation potentially benefitting from jump packs to get around.
As dangerous as Clan heavy infantry is, it really doesn’t do the virotherapies and combat drugs justice in BT play. I’d be tempted to require three points of damage to take down a Society heavy jump infantryman, representing the one point each for the base infantryman, his combat kit, and his dermal armor or whatever mutation underneath. And four points for Society heavy foot infantry, adding another point for the combat drug stamina. That would be some scary infantry.
I don’t recall for sure, but there may be some other virotherapy fluff (better eyesight?) that could theoretically extend the range of infantry weapons by a hex or two in BT play. Or maybe allow the unit to carry (and fire each turn) more or heavier weapons than normally allowed.
As I may have said before, I'm not against customs if sprinkled lightly if they enhance the flavor, one might say.
The super-durable, mutagenic, drug-addled, zombie heavy infantry above might be the trick.
Alas, if only we could turn this into a XTRO :'(
I also did a tracked modular battle “train” and a Clantech omni-Kanga. Need to get them posted someday.
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What do you guys think about Society use of Semi-Guided LRMs (if I restricted it to IS equipment, say Flatbed LRM trucks)?
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I think they would use them if they had them, iATMs are pretty great for sure but comparably inexpensive missiles sign me up.
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What do you guys think about Society use of Semi-Guided LRMs (if I restricted it to IS equipment, say Flatbed LRM trucks)?
If they got them, sure. I believe the odds of them getting enough for a combat load to be astronomically unlikely. The factions that widely deploy them had very little contact with any Clans prior to the Jihad/Reaving, so they'd be capturing them in small amounts from merc raiders, mostly. Those stocks would indeed be turned over to Scientists and Technicians for analysis, but there be no call from the Warriors to reverse engineer the stuff. Judging by the Z-configs we saw, the Society chose to go all-in with iATMs, largely ignoring LRMs or SRMs, so I really don't see them developing the stuff themselves.
You might see a few tons of S-Gs fielded by the Society in desperation. And I'm talking about those few tons being the sum total across the entire Society over the entire Wars of Reavings.
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If they got them, sure. I believe the odds of them getting enough for a combat load to be astronomically unlikely. The factions that widely deploy them had very little contact with any Clans prior to the Jihad/Reaving, so they'd be capturing them in small amounts from merc raiders, mostly. Those stocks would indeed be turned over to Scientists and Technicians for analysis, but there be no call from the Warriors to reverse engineer the stuff. Judging by the Z-configs we saw, the Society chose to go all-in with iATMs, largely ignoring LRMs or SRMs, so I really don't see them developing the stuff themselves.
You might see a few tons of S-Gs fielded by the Society in desperation. And I'm talking about those few tons being the sum total across the entire Society over the entire Wars of Reavings.
Well there was that Blakist asteroid base that the Society/Dark Caste raised during the WoR that was later raided by the Scorpions...
Anyway, I'll probably stick with NARC ammo anyway ;)
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What do you guys think about Society use of Semi-Guided LRMs (if I restricted it to IS equipment, say Flatbed LRM trucks)?
Weirdo’s is the conservative and most canonical take.
That said, there is precedent for the Society to take a faraway Spheroid invention, modify it for their uses, and put it into production without the Warrior caste ever knowing.
The Society did somehow get its hands on battle armor magclamps — which were only used on Cappie Fa Shih suits on the opposite side of the Inner Sphere from the Clan OZs prior to the Wars of Reaving — and managed to supersize the technology and implement it on multiple new protomech production designs up to 10x heavier than the Fa Shih. All without the Warrior caste knowing until it was too late.
Given that precedent, I think it’s certainly possible that some Leaguer semi-guided LRMs fell into the Society’s hands, were reversed-engineered and shrunken for Clan launchers, and widely produced alongside iATMs in the years leading up to the Wars of Reaving without the Warrior Caste ever knowing.
There’s no canonical evidence for this, but the precedent is certainly there for home-brewed Society campaigns or cells.
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Weirdo’s is the conservative and most canonical take.
That said, there is precedent for the Society to take a faraway Spheroid invention, modify it for their uses, and put it into production without the Warrior caste ever knowing.
The Society did somehow get its hands on battle armor magclamps — which were only used on Cappie Fa Shih suits on the opposite side of the Inner Sphere from the Clan OZs prior to the Wars of Reaving — and managed to supersize the technology and implement it on multiple new protomech production designs up to 10x heavier than the Fa Shih. All without the Warrior caste knowing until it was too late.
Given that precedent, I think it’s certainly possible that some Leaguer semi-guided LRMs fell into the Society’s hands, were reversed-engineered and shrunken for Clan launchers, and widely produced alongside iATMs in the years leading up to the Wars of Reaving without the Warrior Caste ever knowing.
There’s no canonical evidence for this, but the precedent is certainly there for home-brewed Society campaigns or cells.
This is precisely my line of reasoning 8)
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And there are plenty of Scoiety units with TAG:
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=&HasBV=false&MinTons=&MaxTons=&MinBV=&MaxBV=&MinIntro=&MaxIntro=&MinCost=&MaxCost=&HasRole=&HasBFAbility=TAG&MinPV=&MaxPV=&Role=None+Selected&BookAuto=&FactionAuto=&Factions=86
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https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=67905.0 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=67905.0)
Started posting my Society XTRO. I'm planning to follow up with some personal Society (as well as Dark Caste) units that I've created.
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So the question today is: Gabriel or Shamash?
The Shamash is probably the superior unit (more firepower, and can actually take a hit before dying) but I feel that it's more of a Blood Spirit exclusive unit and I find it hard to rationalize flavor-wise.
The Gabriel doesn't bring the guns, but at least has slightly better range, is SLDF vintage, so I feel less guilty about spamming them like Savannah Masters.
What do you guys think?
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Well there's no reason why you can't use any of theTDF mods but with clanrech.
TT
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So the question today is: Gabriel or Shamash?
The Shamash is probably the superior unit (more firepower, and can actually take a hit before dying) but I feel that it's more of a Blood Spirit exclusive unit and I find it hard to rationalize flavor-wise.
The Shamash is on the Society, General Homeworld Clan, and even General Inner Sphere Clan MUL lists by the Jihad. Despite their isolation, the Spirits must have traded some to the Mandrills or Ravens (TRO 3060 entry may confirm), and the easily copied design would have spread after that. It has been around for nearly two centuries by the Jihad, so there’s been plenty of time for the Shamash to get around.
But for that scraping-the-bottom-of-the-Brian-Cache feel of the Society, you could mix in some Gabriels, too.
What the Society really needs is a Shamash or Gabriel with pulse lasers to offset their poor training.
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Or I could just go with Cecerops, because those are the easiest for the Society to filtch :D
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Or I could just go with Cecerops, because those are the easiest for the Society to filtch :D
Well, I was thinking something larger than a micro pulse laser. And I bet seven Shamashes/Gabriels beat three Cecerops, despite the Cecerops’ greater individual survivability.
But yeah, sure, why not?!
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I guess I was thinking more about "what is the most effective and cheapest unit for blocking enemy movement?"
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Something cheap, that can survive more than one turn of your opponent being angry at it.
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Jump Infantry and/or Motorized, Hover Infantry... remember a Un is a Short Star of them...
TT
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The problem is that infantry don't stop the movement of larger units. There's a lot of jobs those troops can fill, but stopping traffic isn't one of them. You need something bigger than a battlesuit, at least.
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The problem is that infantry don't stop the movement of larger units. There's a lot of jobs those troops can fill, but stopping traffic isn't one of them. You need something bigger than a battlesuit, at least.
Hence light vees or Protomechs. Infantry (maybe with the exception of Clan Hover Infantry) just isn't fast enough to swarm even a moderately mobile Mech unless in extremely closed terrain
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I guess I was thinking more about "what is the most effective and cheapest unit for blocking enemy movement?"
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Flatbed_Truck (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Flatbed_Truck)
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civilian vehicles?
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https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Flatbed_Truck (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Flatbed_Truck)
Yes, this thought had crossed my mind already, along with the Gabriel, Shamash, generic Hover APC (LRM), Maultiers, that sort of thing.
I guess the real question now is, do I use the Royal Lightning or Royal Zephyr? :-\
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Yes, this thought had crossed my mind already, along with the Gabriel, Shamash, generic Hover APC (LRM), Maultiers, that sort of thing.
I dunno about using fragile hovers as blocking units. Obviously fast, but not as long-lived (or as mobile as long) as the protos they would replace in this role. No vehicle would be, but I think we’d be better off with cheap wheeled or tracked vehicles that might survive or stay mobile for more than a turn after making “contact”.
I guess the real question now is, do I use the Royal Lightning or Royal Zephyr? :-\
Not for blocking, I hope. Too valuable as spotters, obviously, and too fragile as hovers.
If you want to use Narc munitions, then the Zephyr.
If not, it’s a toss-up as both carry TAG. Their total firepower is fairly equal.
In terms of survivability, the Zephyr has the edge in armor and weapons range, while the Lightning has the edge in speed, although the Lightning’s speed is offset somewhat by its lack of turret.
If you’re crewing with sucky Society gunnery skills, then maybe the Lightning so its pulse mediums give that crew a chance to hit. But that comes with shorter ranges that require the Lightning to get closer than the Zephyr. Too close in a hover is usually a bad idea, but this is an expendable lower caste crew, so maybe it’s okay.
If the crew has decent gunnery skills, then maybe the Zephyr as it won’t have to get as close to hit and thus should have a longer battlefield life. Also, the Zephyr’s standard mediums exactly match the ranges on its TAG and Narc, making targeting and spotting complementary and easy.
This above ignores BV or other balancing. The Zephyr is nearly twice the Lightning in BV2, if that matters.
I went with Zephyrs in my MUL-limited Society “cluster”. No Lightnings. But if no Narc and with bad gunnery skills or a preference for speed, I could see them.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=67090.msg1589836;boardseen#new (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=67090.msg1589836;boardseen#new)
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Not for blocking, I hope. Too valuable as spotters, obviously, and too fragile as hovers.
Zephyr and Lightning to be used for spotting for sure. Sorry, I forgot to mention that.
Lightning definitely seems cheaper and more to the point, but I've always wanted to use NARC for IDF, especially with Protos! >:D
I think for blocking, I would use a combination of Flatbed(RL) and Cecerops, with some Gabriel thrown in for fun on the side (fast enough to get around to block the backside) ^-^
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If there was an Erinyes Z, what loadout would you give it? :D
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If there was an Erinyes Z, what loadout would you give it? :D
A blowtorch so I could re-use the parts on anything better.
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A suicide bomb and an (un)healthy dose of Feralize.
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A suicide bomb and an (un)healthy dose of Feralize.
I don't think there is such a thing as a healthy dose of Feralize.
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If there was an Erinyes Z, what loadout would you give it? :D
Light TAG
Booby Trap
Don’t think Society classics like an Improved Heavy Small Laser or a Fusillade launcher will fit no matter how much the Erinyes is stripped down.
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What about nothing but EDP armor? >:D
You could either give it MagClamps or crank up the speed to 7/11
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What about nothing but EDP armor? >:D
That’s not a bad idea. In something that slow and lightly armored, it’s probably the kamikaze leg-hump of suicidal death against mechs. (You may get more damage from ramming speed and a booby trap.). But it would make a decent Elemental hunter. Should get one or two automatic kills before their SRM salvos destroy the Erinyes.
This old design thread is relevant:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=57898.0
You could either give it MagClamps or crank up the speed to 7/11
There may be a mix of extra speed, electric discharge armor, and booby trap that’s positively a little scary, if utterly suicidal, in a 2-ton proto. Especially if we ignore the Society’s human resources limitations, and these tricked out Erinyes Zs are deployed en masse.
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...it’s probably the kamikaze leg-hump of suicidal death against mechs...
Thanks for that imagery. :lol:
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If my calculations are correct, you can build an Erinyes that moves 6/9 with Protomech Myomer Booster, a Booby Trap and 8 points of EDP armor. This means you can run up and tase a Mech with the EDP armor and then explode for 9 damage. I call this the leg-hump of DOOM! :laughing_skull:
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If my calculations are correct, you can build an Erinyes that moves 6/9 with Protomech Myomer Booster, a Booby Trap and 8 points of EDP armor. This means you can run up and tase a Mech with the EDP armor and then explode for 9 damage. I call this the leg-hump of DOOM! :laughing_skull:
Yes, that will work.
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If my calculations are correct, you can build an Erinyes that moves 6/9 with Protomech Myomer Booster, a Booby Trap and 8 points of EDP armor. This means you can run up and tase a Mech with the EDP armor and then explode for 9 damage. I call this the leg-hump of DOOM! :laughing_skull:
Excellent work. But you may want to trade the myomer booster for a bigger engine. May make your booby trap more powerful.
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Can ProtoMechs even use boobytraps?
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Can ProtoMechs even use boobytraps?
Drat, no. Only unit that prohibits them in TacOps.
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Drat, no. Only unit that prohibits them in TacOps.
Oh, well. A booby trap would have been hilarious. I still think that a 2 ton Protomech with EDP armor (even without a Booby Trap) creates a threat much greater in proportion to its size. According to my calculations, the BV2 of such a Protomech isn't going to top 100BV or so, and can easily be carried by most units if the Protomech has MagClamps.
Unrelated, how the hell to the Stone Lions have more posts than us? They are a fake Clan who should never have existed!
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Drat, no. Only unit that prohibits them in TacOps.
Strange, is there a reason for prohibiting them?
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Preventing ultra-cheap suicide bombs is an extremely good idea in my book. It's hard enough getting people to not use larger units that way.
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Preventing ultra-cheap suicide bombs is an extremely good idea in my book. It's hard enough getting people to not use larger units that way.
Requiring a minimum unit tonnage might have been the most consistent option.
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Strange, is there a reason for prohibiting them?
No reason is given in TacOps. I can think of several reasons, but none of them are very satisfying.
In-universe, the excuse may be that protomechs lack a battlemech’s ejection system, and no one is crazy enough to take the risk without some chance of surviving (however small).
But this ignores drones and 99.9% of vehicles, which also lack ejection systems and can use booby traps. This implies that your average jeep driver is crazier than your average protomech warrior. (I don’t buy that.)
Another in-universe excuse may be the compact construction of protomechs. There’s just no room to stick a wad of C-4 next to the engine shielding and wire an ignitor to a battery and a button in the cockpit.
But that doesn’t make any sense as the construction rules would require the design to remove or forego something else to afford the mass and space of the booby trap in the first place. (So I don’t buy that, either.)
It may also be a Clan thing. No Clan warrior would engage in such dishonorable and wasteful tactics.
But that ignores Bandit Caste members, the Society, and desperate dying Clans like the Blood Spirits who have either rejected Clan combat norms or are in a situation where they must set them aside. (So I don’t buy that either.)
Preventing ultra-cheap suicide bombs is an extremely good idea in my book. It's hard enough getting people to not use larger units that way.
It may be a game balance thing instead of an in-universe thing.
But under the construction rules, we can also design hyperfast drone VTOLs and WiGEs with booby traps that are essentially guided/cruise missiles. Thanks to the low-end of the fusion engine table, these can weigh as little as a few tons and still do tens of points of damage each.
So it would be better to restrict booby traps to anything less than X tons, rather than single out protomechs, IMO.
[Edit: Great minds with Maingunnery on the last point.]
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Unrelated, how the hell to the Stone Lions have more posts than us? They are a fake Clan who should never have existed!
Guilty as charged!
TT
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Requiring a minimum unit tonnage might have been the most consistent option.
Were I given the authority, that would absolutely be the case, and the tonnage in question would be 201. Sadly, that cheese has since curdled.
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Although some of their methods were morally questionable, I kind of wish the Society had succeeded in transforming the Homeworlds. I think the result would certainly have been more interesting than the Clan Classic factions that now rule the Homeworlds. (Although hopefully they will evolve into something more interesting, too.)
The Homeworld Clans has already been drastically changed. How many Clans were annihilated? How many worlds were devastated? The Dark Caste has grown and started taking territory. Even the Inner Sphere has been affected, the Oberon Confederation is back and they are armed with Mechs by an "unknown supplier".
I understand that you want a greater change but let us see what a couple of decades in isolation will do.
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Preventing ultra-cheap suicide bombs is an extremely good idea in my book. It's hard enough getting people to not use larger units that way.
Err, like the Buffalo Drone Bomb?
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Were I given the authority, that would absolutely be the case, and the tonnage in question would be 201. Sadly, that cheese has since curdled.
I'd suggest minimum engine rating, which factors into the damage. ProtoMechs have smaller reactors so that might be an in-universe explanation as well.
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The Homeworld Clans has already been drastically changed. How many Clans were annihilated? How many worlds were devastated?
Sure, there was a lot of death and destruction. But we’ve still got three of the same Clans (and a new one that isn’t all that different from the others), the same five Clan castes and caste structure, and the same two protect-versus-invade Clan political factions, just now on steroids. For all the sturm und drang of the WoR, the fundamentals of Clan society in the Homeworlds are basically all still there and unchanged.
Had the Society succeeded, had the Clan caste structure been upset, had the sports team-ish barriers between the Clans been dissolved, had new political alignments come to the fore, and had the Scientist Caste been able to unleash their inventions, the Homeworlds would be a lot more different and interesting.
Instead of just waiting for Operation Revival v2.0, we’d have a whole new (or remade) part of the galaxy to explore.
It seems like a missed opportunity.
The Dark Caste has grown and started taking territory.
No, it’s dead or driven out. The Dark or Bandit Caste on and around the Homeworlds was wiped out during and after the WoR. The four surviving Clans were scouring neighboring systems for bandits in WoR Supp, and the sample bandit groups in that sourcebook had all been eliminated.
I understand that you want a greater change but let us see what a couple of decades in isolation will do.
Well, it will have been the better part of a century if/when ilClan drops. Or a couple centuries if/when the timeline accelerates to 3250 or some other date.
The way WoR and WoR Supp left things, it doesn’t seem like there will be much opportunity for change in the Homeworlds, even after all that time. Things seemed pretty static again at the end. And coming events, like taking over the Hanseatic League and other local neighbors, didn’t seem to offer much in the way of change agents for the surviving Clans.
Anything could happen over a century or two. But big changes would necessitate another story, which, unless there is another book like WoR, would happen offstage. Again, that seems like a missed opportunity. If the Homeworld Clans are going to morph into something new — and not just stage Operation Revival v2.0 — that evolution should have been part of WoR.
Don’t get me wrong. WoR and WoR Supp were great sourcebooks. I just think some more strategic thought could have gone into what the Homeworlds Clans could become and where best to tell that story. Instead of moving that corner of the BT universe forward, it just largely ended where it started, which again, I think is a missed opportunity.
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Err, like the Buffalo Drone Bomb?
The Buffalo is (relatively) slow, fragile, and requires a drone control unit. It's got enough points of failure that if you actually manage to get one on target, you deserve to get that boom.
Something cheap, fast, and easy to get on target? And relies on the technicality of being fictional to get around being an act of murder? I'd fight that kind of crap with every fiber of my being.
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No, it’s dead or driven out. The Dark or Bandit Caste on and around the Homeworlds was wiped out during and after the WoR. The four surviving Clans were scouring neighboring systems for bandits in WoR Supp, and the sample bandit groups in that sourcebook had all been eliminated.
Well, it will have been the better part of a century if/when ilClan drops. Or a couple centuries if/when the timeline accelerates to 3250 or some other date.
The way WoR and WoR Supp left things, it doesn’t seem like there will be much opportunity for change in the Homeworlds, even after all that time. Things seemed pretty static again at the end. And coming events, like taking over the Hanseatic League and other local neighbors, didn’t seem to offer much in the way of change agents for the surviving Clans.
Anything could happen over a century or two. But big changes would necessitate another story, which, unless there is another book like WoR, would happen offstage. Again, that seems like a missed opportunity. If the Homeworld Clans are going to morph into something new — and not just stage Operation Revival v2.0 — that evolution should have been part of WoR.
Don’t get me wrong. WoR and WoR Supp were great sourcebooks. I just think some more strategic thought could have gone into what the Homeworlds Clans could become and where best to tell that story. Instead of moving that corner of the BT universe forward, it just largely ended where it started, which again, I think is a missed opportunity.
Didn't read WoR Supp thought/hoped that the Dark Caste would have been the "Fifth" Homeworld Clan not as strong as their neighbors but still a force to contend with. As always in the Battletech Universe the more things change the more they stay the same.
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Even if they combined into one force, the Dark Caste never in their history has the strength to present even a single Clan with a challenge. Their strength always lay in their operating from the shadows(where hidebound Clan Warriors are it of their depth), and fleeing before they can be crushed. With very few exceptions, every time the Dark Caste ever got dragged out into the light of an actual battlefield, they died messily.
That being said, I highly doubt the Dark Caste is gone. Every society is going to have its outcasts and renegades, especially one as tightly regimented as the Clans. They've been knocked down HARD, and it'll be a long time after the WoR before you see any sizable operations, but they're still out there, and they will be back.
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Even if they combined into one force, the Dark Caste never in their history has the strength to present even a single Clan with a challenge. Their strength always lay in their operating from the shadows(where hidebound Clan Warriors are it of their depth), and fleeing before they can be crushed. With very few exceptions, every time the Dark Caste ever got dragged out into the light of an actual battlefield, they died messily.
That being said, I highly doubt the Dark Caste is gone. Every society is going to have its outcasts and renegades, especially one as tightly regimented as the Clans. They've been knocked down HARD, and it'll be a long time after the WoR before you see any sizable operations, but they're still out there, and they will be back.
Well with the heavier bandit-patrols, the new Dark Caste may just limit themselves to being the local underground.
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Well with the heavier bandit-patrols, the new Dark Caste may just limit themselves to being the local underground.
Remember the bandit hunters are usually composed of Solhama troops and the members of the 3Rs (Rogues, Renegades, and Rejects) perfect recruits for an upcoming Dark Caste leader. I mean the best troops to handle this situation.
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Often, but not always. After all, (relative)peace does occasionally break out in Clan space, and front-line warriors still need someone to get their fool selves killed against, in order for the sibko and Bloodname programs to not break down.
Well with the heavier bandit-patrols, the new Dark Caste may just limit themselves to being the local underground.
For the time being, certainly. After a decade or two, things may be different.
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Ok, a question for you Society gurus. What would the Society be like in the 3060's? I have a campaign in that timeframe based on Nebula California. We have the standard Inner Sphere mission there (adapted for time), but also a Goliath Scorpion Seeker that had a vision to join a particular Interstellar Expeditions mission. One of my players wants to play a Society Scientist Caste, so she'll be part of the Seeker's retinue. I'd like some background on the Society at that time and some hooks aimed at her character. For instance the Seeker is following an old Star League mission he had tracked down in some obscure reference. I could tie hers into that possibly, though I'd like something specifically tied to The Society's goals.
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Ok, a question for you Society gurus. What would the Society be like in the 3060's?... One of my players wants to play a Society Scientist Caste
There’s not a lot of info on the Society prior to their emergence a decade later. But there was some specific suspicious behavior surrounding unsanctioned inter-Clan gene trading, a cloning program, and a secret sibko all run by Jade Falcon scientists with some Dark Caste muscle. It’s covered well here under “Strange Happenings” with references to the relevant novels:
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/The_Society
Two specific ideas come to mind regarding your PC.
One, she could be trying to recover some vital data on or sample of the Chameleon Light Polarization System and/or the Null-Signature System. These were stealth systems used by the SLDF that show up in the Society’s Cephalus omnimech. Maybe the Society had all it needed to reproduce CLPS and Null-Sig. But if not, piggybacking on a Seeker mission to get the relevant information out of an old SLDF cache makes sense.
The Society also adopted the Spheroid (really Capellan) technology of battle armor magclamps and expanded them for use in their protomechs. Piggybacking on a Seeker mission in or around Capellan space in order to snag a magclamp sample makes some sense.
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One, she could be trying to recover some vital data on or sample of the Chameleon Light Polarization System and/or the Null-Signature System. These were stealth systems used by the SLDF that show up in the Society’s Cephalus omnimech. Maybe the Society had all it needed to reproduce CLPS and Null-Sig. But if not, piggybacking on a Seeker mission to get the relevant information out of an old SLDF cache makes sense.
The Society also adopted the Spheroid (really Capellan) technology of battle armor magclamps and expanded them for use in their protomechs. Piggybacking on a Seeker mission in or around Capellan space in order to snag a magclamp sample makes some sense.
Oh, those ARE good! Thanks! I will look them up.
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One of my players wants to play a Society Scientist Caste, so she'll be part of the Seeker's retinue. I'd like some background on the Society at that time and some hooks aimed at her character. For instance the Seeker is following an old Star League mission he had tracked down in some obscure reference. I could tie hers into that possibly, though I'd like something specifically tied to The Society's goals.
Have her figure out the Truth. The Society is in cahoots with the Genecaste, and the Wars of Reaving were started by Genecaste genenorm agent provocateurs to keep the Clans and the warrior castes down. Wake up, sheeple! :D
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Even if they combined into one force, the Dark Caste never in their history has the strength to present even a single Clan with a challenge. Their strength always lay in their operating from the shadows(where hidebound Clan Warriors are it of their depth), and fleeing before they can be crushed. With very few exceptions, every time the Dark Caste ever got dragged out into the light of an actual battlefield, they died messily.
That being said, I highly doubt the Dark Caste is gone. Every society is going to have its outcasts and renegades, especially one as tightly regimented as the Clans. They've been knocked down HARD, and it'll be a long time after the WoR before you see any sizable operations, but they're still out there, and they will be back.
Hmm, for the Home Clans, is not anything that does not not belong to them and their proper castes considered as being Dark Caste?
Especially the Inner Sphere barbarians?
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Hmm, for the Home Clans, is not anything that does not not belong to them and their proper castes considered as being Dark Caste?
Especially the Inner Sphere barbarians?
No, more like the difference between "You were Clan" or "You should have been Clan" versus "You were never Clan".
In the minds of the Clans, The Dark Caste have rejected Clan ways and are worse than the Inner Sphere Barbarians that never knew, understood, or accepted Clan ways. Spheriods are just too stupid or ignorant to know, the Dark Caste KNOW better and yet they still reject the better way. To a Clanner it's like someone purposefully being Stupid AND Evil.
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What do my fellow scientists feel about using infantry with tube artillery? I know that the Society was supposed to have used unarmored infantry a lot as berserker suicide troops, but throwing PBI in front of Elementals with APGRs just doesn't seem that effective. If I have to use unarmored infantry, I want to keep them as far from the front lines as possible. Also, if I give them a Sniper Tube with Copperhead rounds or Arrow IV with Homing Rounds, having bad gunnery would matter a whole lot less anyway...
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Oh, absolutely go with field arty. Maybe avoid the guided rounds, though. Remember that Society forces often had poor skills all around, and that includes your TAGgers. The TAG misses, your shoot does nothing. A conventional round misses, there's still a decent chance it'll drift and hit something useful. And AE like that is a great way to neutralize an enemy advantage in battlesuits or light units.
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Oh, absolutely go with field arty. Maybe avoid the guided rounds, though. Remember that Society forces often had poor skills all around, and that includes your TAGgers. The TAG misses, your shoot does nothing. A conventional round misses, there's still a decent chance it'll drift and hit something useful. And AE like that is a great way to neutralize an enemy advantage in battlesuits or light units.
Would you go with infantry platoons with Sniper/Arrow IV over Vali or Chaparral though? The second option can't really fight back, but also has deeper bins (smoke, FASCAM, etc).
My TAGers are Cephalus primes and Royal Zephyrs, which would ironically have the best pilots, and everyone else would have crap gunnery ;D
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Are they going to be on the board or off? Off-board, go with field artillery. Pair them with a BFFL or something similar, both to carry extra ammo, and so they can bug out as soon as counter-battery shells start falling. On-board, I'd go with SPGs unless BV constraints prevent it. Vehicles can more easily evade backfield raiders or relocate when their hex gets dialed in, and mobile units (especially ones with passable armor and speed) are more flexible, as they can be used as direct-fire assault guns if the opportunity arises. Got a Star of Elementals or a light mech working up your flank? A field gun is probably stuck with indirect fire and hoping it gets lucky before they're too close (and in the meantime your main force is deprived of their fire support), while an SPG can pop around the hill it's been hiding behind and blow them away with a direct shot, and hopefully be back to supporting your main force after only a turn or two.
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Are they going to be on the board or off? Off-board, go with field artillery. Pair them with a BFFL or something similar, both to carry extra ammo, and so they can bug out as soon as counter-battery shells start falling. On-board, I'd go with SPGs unless BV constraints prevent it. Vehicles can more easily evade backfield raiders or relocate when their hex gets dialed in, and mobile units (especially ones with passable armor and speed) are more flexible, as they can be used as direct-fire assault guns if the opportunity arises. Got a Star of Elementals or a light mech working up your flank? A field gun is probably stuck with indirect fire and hoping it gets lucky before they're too close (and in the meantime your main force is deprived of their fire support), while an SPG can pop around the hill it's been hiding behind and blow them away with a direct shot, and hopefully be back to supporting your main force after only a turn or two.
I've never actually used off-board artillery, but my impression was that it was pretty bad. But I guess, if I go for off-board, why not go for broke and use Long Toms?
I guess the solution would be to use both.
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Yeah, I'm an on-board-only kind of guy as well. I usually use field arty when I can't afford an SPG, or when for some reason I'm less worried about flankers getting to them.
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Why not use cheap ARs with Support-Snubbies?
Huh you ask?
Built same way as the Taurian Field Gun Infantry:
Snub-Nosed PPC (Support)*** IS / Clan (E) Medium / Support (E) 5 1.58 1,600 KG / 25.0 KG (150) 3
( From AtoW Companion )
TT
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(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9edyqSPIb1r0hqyw.jpg)
I must have mistranslated your post, because I have NO clue what that had to do with artillery. ???
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You said you like to fight ON-board, right?
Well these do the job : 15 hex, 1.58 each ( that's 2 damage apiece ), needs 1 pbi to fire these, 2 more to move it... standard Platoon has 5 of these... so doing that math, it's 10 Points downrange from these with another .52 per PBI, ( that's 20 x .52 = 10.4 ) which is to say 20 points a turn from this one platoon.
Who needs artillery when you have these?
TT
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Ah. Yeah, if you're gonna switch conversational tracks like that, you've got to give people some context or else they get topic whiplash.
Who needs artillery when you have these?
People who are talking about artillery in a way that implies they're wanting to use artillery?
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Also, your math is off. 5 Support SN-PPCs and 20 auto-rifles maxes out at 18 damage, and since no Clan-style platoon can used more than one gun that big per squad, you're stuck with the auto-rifle's 3-hex range. You need an Inner Sphere-style unit to get the most out of that gun.
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Easy fix... Mauser IIC every one!
TT
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Still don't see what it has to do with artillery. Can't indirect fire, isn't AE, missed shots don't drift, greatly limited range, can't attack aeros... How do they replace artillery? ???
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https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=69997.0 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=69997.0)
Finally getting around to writing up a Society cell that was used in a mini-campaign I played with a friend. More to come
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I am going to pose the question, if Niops defeats the Clans at Terra, does that mean that the society won?
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I am going to pose the question, if Niops defeats the Clans at Terra, does that mean that the society won?
The Society wins either way.
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How all, what do you think of this cell? I wanted to add some infantry but I'm just not sure where they would fit in
Sept 1
6 Basilisk Q
6 Boggart 2
6 Sprite
2 Zephyr (Royal)
5 Vali/Chaparral
Sept 2
2 Cephalus prime
3 Septicemia prime
1 Osteon prime
2 Zephyr (Royal)
5 Vali/Chaparral
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That's just EVIL.
My tactics with such a group would be to keep the protos back with the artillery as an escort. The mechs are your main combatants, fighting and drawing attention. Their mismatched speeds might cause problems, but you can work with it. If a mech gets isolated and your opponent tasks part of their force to take advantage of it, that's when you send your Zephyrs in. Put a salvo of guided missiles in the air, send all four of them after a single target to make absolutely sure at least one TAG hits, and then watch that target Go Away.
Use the Zephyrs ONLY in this dash-and-TAG role. They're far too essential to your force to risk in other attacks, and will be absolute top priority targets the moment your opponent knows what you've brought. If you must use guided rounds, use the Cephaloi for your usual spotting.
Speaking of which, bring plenty of normal HE ammo. Too many people focus exclusively on the TAG/Arrow combo, but with that many tubes, you can blanket entire mapsheets in light to medium damage. You won't kill big things, but a sustained bombardment on that level will see your opponent's light units (BA, Protos, light mechs and vees, the kind of stuff likely to be sent to hunt down your Zephyrs or arty) utterly vaporized in very short order.
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That's just EVIL.
Hehehe, glad someone appreciates >:D
The tactics used by these Septs are basically to use Arrow IV HE saturation to soften up the enemy first and break up any tight formations. Alternatively mines could be used to funnel forces into a kill zone, given the terrain
Boggart 2s would skirt the battlefield and use their mobility to either flank the OpFor or intercept forces trying to flank me.
Cephali would approach the nearest isolated enemy and spot for Septicemias, while artillery would lay down smoke rounds to block LOS of the enemy.
Septicemias would concentrate fire on the nearest enemies, serving as the 'tip of the spear'
Basilisk Q and Sprite would play more mid-field and act as distracting speed bumps
Zephyrs can also spot in tandem with the Cephali and drop NARC rounds to improve Basilisk Q and Sprite missiles.
I was planning on using the Osteon as the "bait" to guard the artillery units because it can stand off at pretty long range and plink ER iATM rounds but threaten anyone who gets up close with HE and EMP rounds.
Of course, battle plans never survive contact with the enemy :D
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How all, what do you think of this cell?
Good stuff.
Boggart 2s would skirt the battlefield and use their mobility to either flank the OpFor or intercept forces trying to flank me.
Basilisk Q and Sprite would play more mid-field and act as distracting speed bumps
I actually think your battle plan would be:
1. Arrow IV HE saturation with the Valis
2. Crippling/blocking/immobilizing/blinding targets with the protomechs, Cephali/Zephyrs, and Arrow IV homing
3. Sending in the Septicemias and Osteon for cleanup.
I think your protos are more than edge players and speedbumps. The Basilisks need to be in the middle of it to cripple a couple targets with their electromagnetic attack. The Boggarts can surround and block an opponent or two. And the Sprites can immobilize/blind a target or two with mines and smoke. That can all be happening while the Cephali and Zepyrs are putting six Arrow IV homing rounds into opponents’ rear armor.
You have to wait until the Arrow IV HE barrage is over so you don’t bomb you own lighter units. But I would do step 2 before seriously engaging the heavier Septicemias and Osteon. You want to make sure the enemy is reduced in number and as crippled, blind, and immobile as possible before committing those heavy assets.
One thing explicitly missing is thermal attacks (like the plasma cannons on the regular Boggart), but you can change up Arrow IV, iATM, and SRM munitions to address that.
Might also consider more pulsey configs on the Septs and Osteon depending on what gunnery skills you’re working with.
Again, good stuff.
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I actually think your battle plan would be:
1. Arrow IV HE saturation with the Valis
2. Crippling/blocking/immobilizing/blinding targets with the protomechs, Cephali/Zephyrs, and Arrow IV homing
3. Sending in the Septicemias and Osteon for cleanup.
Good call. I forgot to mention blocking with the Protomechs although I'm not sure that I have the raw numbers to pull this tactic off. We'll have to see. I guess what I'm going for is creating a Society force that could believably take on an elite Trinary. Is it good enough? We'll have to see. This force would only work in built up terrain, that's for sure, but it's not like I'm going to be playing fair anyway.
I think your protos are more than edge players and speedbumps. The Basilisks need to be in the middle of it to cripple a couple targets with their electromagnetic attack. The Boggarts can surround and block an opponent or two. And the Sprites can immobilize/blind a target or two with mines and smoke. That can all be happening while the Cephali and Zepyrs are putting six Arrow IV homing rounds into opponents’ rear armor.
Right, the idea was EDP tasing the enemy and roasting them with Inferno SRMs with the Basilisk Qs, so they would either be mostly immobile and even easier targets for guided Arrow IV or NARC missile fire
One thing explicitly missing is thermal attacks (like the plasma cannons on the regular Boggart), but you can change up Arrow IV, iATM, and SRM munitions to address that.
I've thought about this. The range of the Boggart 1 Plasma Cannon does seem tempting, but with only 10 shots, it's a bit difficult to justify. The Boggart 2 seems like a better choice because it's sufficiently annoying that it would draw fire away from my other units and I can heat up enemy units in other ways.
Note: I was planning on giving my Vehicles 4/6 or 5/6 pilots, which doesn't really matter so much because as far as I remember, Arrow IV doesn't require gunnery, and depends on the TAG spotter. Also, direct fire battletanks just feel too "conventional." Protomechs would have 3/4 pilots, and the Mechs would have either 3/4 or 4/5 pilots.
Am I missing anything? I'd like to add more things like a Mobile HQ, a vehicle with a Fluid Gun or Sensor Dispensor, but it's hard to justify over another artillery tube. I could drop one Cephalus, but somehow I feel it ruins the balance of the whole thing and I dislike the idea of having more Vehicles than Protomechs
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You have to be careful to use these only in areas of uncontested airspace, but the Dixon airship or Mosquito radar plane could prove useful. The Dixon is a flying command post, that also mounts liquid sprayers, some ground unit transport capability, and light air-to-ground firepower. The Mosquito has very good ground-scanning sensors, can drop remote sensors as well as a light bomb load (or an external TAG), and the gear to monitor two sensors at once.
One or the other might easily be worth dropping a single Vali.
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Good call. I forgot to mention blocking with the Protomechs although I'm not sure that I have the raw numbers to pull this tactic off. We'll have to see. I guess what I'm going for is creating a Society force that could believably take on an elite Trinary. Is it good enough? We'll have to see.
Dunno about going against elite, but I think you have the numbers to pull it off.
Assuming three Basilisk Qs or Boggart 2s to block (maybe stop with the Qs) the forward movement of one non-jumping Clan mech, those 12 protos should stop four mechs.
Assuming the four LRM launchers on each Sprite can smoke the forward arc or mine the forward movement of one Clan mech, those six protos should blind or slow six mechs.
And then you still have four Zephyrs and two Cephali to threaten the remaining five Clan mechs with Arrow IV Homing.
So basically you have enough light forces to engage and drag down 15 Clan mechs. That, combined with the Arrow IV HE barrage before and the Septicemia/Osteon cleanup after, should put you in the ballpark.
It’s actually the Horse Mongol Doctrine with some dirty EMP/thermal/smoke tricks and heavy artillery support.
This force would only work in built up terrain, that's for sure, but it's not like I'm going to be playing fair anyway.
Not so sure. Your Zephyrs need open terrain, and you’ll isolate opponents with or without terrain using the protos and smoke. But the Valis are vulnerable to fast movers, plus or minus the Osteon/Septecemia guards.
Am I missing anything? I'd like to add more things like a Mobile HQ, a vehicle with a Fluid Gun or Sensor Dispensor, but it's hard to justify over another artillery tube. I could drop one Cephalus, but somehow I feel it ruins the balance of the whole thing and I dislike the idea of having more Vehicles than Protomechs
It’s not canon, but I’ve ginned up Command Uns and Rogue Uns separate from my major Treys and Septs and comprised of seven of these kinds of support vehicles.
I prefer modifying Flatbed Trucks and Saladins (Clan) for stuff like Fluid Guns and Sensor Dispensers.
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You have to be careful to use these only in areas of uncontested airspace, but the Dixon airship or Mosquito radar plane could prove useful.
Good call. I think that the airspace will be kept pretty clear with 3 HAG30s and 10 Arrow IVs spamming HE rounds ;D
Assuming three Basilisk Qs or Boggart 2s to block (maybe stop with the Qs) the forward movement of one non-jumping Clan mech, those 12 protos should stop four mechs.
This is solid advice. I didn't think of it tactically this way.
It’s actually the Horse Mongol Doctrine with some dirty EMP/thermal/smoke tricks and heavy artillery support.
Whoa, never made the comparison! I think if I used Septicemia Bs and Cephalus Ds, it would appear more Mongol, perhaps?
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Good call. I think that the airspace will be kept pretty clear with 3 HAG30s and 10 Arrow IVs spamming HE rounds ;D
Not really. Remember, those weapons can only hit units that overfly their own mapsheet, essentially one hex on the low altitude map. Even if you got ahold of some Spheroid Air Defense Arrows, that's a three-hex range when all but the slowest fighters "walk" five hexes per turn.
Anti-air fire is kinda like using only A-Pods to deal with infantry: you can mess your enemy up when he gets right on top of you, but you absolutely cannot prevent their approach, nor protect any buddies not also right on top of you.
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I think if I used Septicemia Bs and Cephalus Ds, it would appear more Mongol, perhaps?
I called it Mongol because it uses a lot a lighter units (like Mongol archers, your protos, Cephali, and Zephyrs in this case) to fix the enemy for relatively fewer heavy units (like Mongol lancers, you Septs, Osteon, and Valis in this case). Changing configurations doesn’t really change that analogy.
I would definitely go with a Septicemia B-Z (need the -Z for the Nova CEWS) if your gunnery skills were worse or if the opponents’ movement mods or terrain justified. Otherwise, the Prime delivers better damage and hole-punching (and still has the TC).
On the Cephalus, the D has no TAG to go with the heavy large laser. But the E combines an ER large laser with Light TAG for a little extra punch. Neither will last as long as the Prime, and the A’s jump jets are necessary in the right terrain.
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Not really. Remember, those weapons can only hit units that overfly their own mapsheet, essentially one hex on the low altitude map. Even if you got ahold of some Spheroid Air Defense Arrows, that's a three-hex range when all but the slowest fighters "walk" five hexes per turn.
Anti-air fire is kinda like using only A-Pods to deal with infantry: you can mess your enemy up when he gets right on top of you, but you absolutely cannot prevent their approach, nor protect any buddies not also right on top of you.
You're the master, I heed your wisdom.
I could ditch one Cephalus for an Un of 3 Batu Zs, which would provide air support, give more firepower, and could possible spot for artillery with pod-mounted TAG. Good idea? Bad idea?
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Hey, do you guys know if 1 Un of infantry is 21 troopers (three squads) or 1 Un is three platoons of 21 troopers (1 Infantry Un = 63 troopers)? WoR: Supp is kind of vague about this. 63 troopers seems like a lot of people, given that the Society supposedly suffered from manpower issues.
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Hey, do you guys know if 1 Un of infantry is 21 troopers (three squads) or 1 Un is three platoons of 21 troopers (1 Infantry Un = 63 troopers)? WoR: Supp is kind of vague about this. 63 troopers seems like a lot of people, given that the Society supposedly suffered from manpower issues.
The text section under "Organization" on pg 2 of WoR:S says an Un is 3 platoons of infantry troopers. Vehicle Treys formed the bulk of the Society's firepower. In WoR on pg 93 under "First Strikes" it said when the Society took over an enclave it would recruit trueborn washouts to join their forces. That's how they got so many. Remember how many washouts there are from a sibko. There's probably lots more Elemental sibkos than Mechwarrior or aerospace, just due to the quantities needed and combat loses in a battle.
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Has anyone used the Clan Hover Infantry from TRO3085 with 20 Mauser IICs? They seem like a BV steal at 114 BV because they can move 5MP without having to worry about facing chances, and get a +3 to hit AMM and do 18 damage at 9 hexes. I know that anything with hover movement can't take advantage of entering terrain, so they can't camp out in a heavy woods like jump infantry. Because they're always going to be in "open terrain" I expect them to get slaughtered the moment the opponent pays attention to them. But I like the idea of them in theory. You could even drop a few Mauser IICs and give them Support TAG, but that would probably attract too much attention, wouldn't it?
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Minor correction: They can only manage a +2 TMM, not 3. Conventional infantry don't get that free +1 that BA do.
Those troops are indeed powerful, and while their Clan armor goes a long way towards mitigating their weaknesses, you may still find them only being good for one or two strikes before they need to withdraw due to casualties. Keeping them away from mechs that go heavy on missiles or pulse lasers will help a lot, as will remembering the rules for Fast Movement - Mausers may have very good range as far as infantry go, but you'll still have plenty of turns where you're too far out to do any shooting. Giving up a shot you weren't going to take anyway in favor of an extra MP can mean the difference between life and death if it means making it behind cover.
Also, remember that while they can't enter woods, hover troops can enter buildings. They won't be as fast as motor troops (or many Protomechs), but they can still get around just fine while talking advantage of the amazing cover a building can provide.
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Minor correction: They can only manage a +2 TMM, not 3. Conventional infantry don't get that free +1 that BA do.
Those troops are indeed powerful, and while their Clan armor goes a long way towards mitigating their weaknesses, you may still find them only being good for one or two strikes before they need to withdraw due to casualties. Keeping them away from mechs that go heavy on missiles or pulse lasers will help a lot, as will remembering the rules for Fast Movement - Mausers may have very good range as far as infantry go, but you'll still have plenty of turns where you're too far out to do any shooting. Giving up a shot you weren't going to take anyway in favor of an extra MP can mean the difference between life and death if it means making it behind cover.
Also, remember that while they can't enter woods, hover troops can enter buildings. They won't be as fast as motor troops (or many Protomechs), but they can still get around just fine while talking advantage of the amazing cover a building can provide.
Wow, disappointing. Might as well use jump or foot infantry. Yeah, mostly I was planning on using them as cheap firepower against immobilized units (think Mechs tased with EDP/TSEMP, overheated with infernos/plasma, EMP rounds, maybe with artillery smoke and Paint Gun sensor obscuring paint on the side)
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Their main advantage is their speed and resistance to anti-personnel weapons. Honestly, for the role you want I think they could do pretty well, since their higher speed makes them better able to react on a fluid battlefield. You shut down a mech in hex X, and your infantry are in hex Y, the hover troops have a much higher chance of getting in close enough to take advantage of the situation than jump or foot troops do, before the target powers up again.
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Their main advantage is their speed and resistance to anti-personnel weapons. Honestly, for the role you want I think they could do pretty well, since their higher speed makes them better able to react on a fluid battlefield. You shut down a mech in hex X, and your infantry are in hex Y, the hover troops have a much higher chance of getting in close enough to take advantage of the situation than jump or foot troops do, before the target powers up again.
Right, exactly. Let's say that I shut down an elite ristar Mech, I still have like a turn at best before it powers up again, so if I move my Badger full of Clan Jump Infantry into that hex and dump off the infantry... the infantry can't do anything for a turn anyway. The Mech might just power up and walk away... leaving you're infantry to do nothing at best. Whereas (terrain permitting), it's a lot easier to move hover infantry into position to the disabled Mech, and you can fire right away. You might be able to line up a backshot if you're lucky. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
Hover infantry inside a building just seems wrong though. Whereas Protomechs inside a building feels right. :D
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You've got it pretty much dead on.
Though if you do get the chance to drop jump troops right next to a mech that isn't prepared to deal with them (especially something slow), I'd say go ahead and try it. Either you'll force that mech to maneuver on the defensive to avoid backshots...or you'll get backshots with a Clantech jump platoon, always a good thing.
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What do you think of this 5000 BV2 Society force?
9x Cecerops 1 (4/5)
6x Basilisk Quad 1 (4/5, w/ NARC ammo)
3x Sprite 1 (4/5, w/ NARC ammo)
1x Zephyr Royal, (4/5)
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That'll definitely be a pain to deal with, though it has a couple weaknesses.
1: Unless you're fighting tanks, it's going to take you forever to kill any single unit, much less an opposing battle force. I might recommend trimming down your proto numbers until you can fit in anything that can deliver damage in at least one slug of ten points or higher. I've played missile-focused forces like this before, and while the sheer amount of damage they can put out is impressive, their inability to actually punch through armor means a bit of bad luck on die rolls will mean they just can't kill a decent-sized mech in a meaningful amount of time. You'll find yourself losing Protos at a rate you can't handle, to mechs that are almost completely scoured of armor but still fighting at 100% because there's been almost no punchthrough or crits.
2: That Zephyr is very useful, and clearly a central part of your force. What's your plan for when it gets killed, possibly before you've managed to land very many pods? Note that I said When, not If. Only enemy incompetence or truly bad rolls on their part will keep a hovertank that central to a large force alive through an entire engagement if it's staying close enough to actually NARC things.
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That'll definitely be a pain to deal with, though it has a couple weaknesses.
1: Unless you're fighting tanks, it's going to take you forever to kill any single unit, much less an opposing battle force. I might recommend trimming down your proto numbers until you can fit in anything that can deliver damage in at least one slug of ten points or higher. I've played missile-focused forces like this before, and while the sheer amount of damage they can put out is impressive, their inability to actually punch through armor means a bit of bad luck on die rolls will mean they just can't kill a decent-sized mech in a meaningful amount of time. You'll find yourself losing Protos at a rate you can't handle, to mechs that are almost completely scoured of armor but still fighting at 100% because there's been almost no punchthrough or crits.
2: That Zephyr is very useful, and clearly a central part of your force. What's your plan for when it gets killed, possibly before you've managed to land very many pods? Note that I said When, not If. Only enemy incompetence or truly bad rolls on their part will keep a hovertank that central to a large force alive through an entire engagement if it's staying close enough to actually NARC things.
These are both issues I have considered. I can even add another: what if the OpFor is faster than me?
Actually what I really wish I could use are 2 things:
1) sort of a budget Joust tank... something with an ERLL and not much else, but with decent armor.
2) a Protomech with NARC pods
What is the cheapest reliable hole-punching unit, do you think? Minotaur Z is too short ranged for my taste, given it's speed. I could try to shoehorn a Royal Fury. I've also considered ditching the Sprites for Flatbed LRMs, to use those points on something genuinely threatening
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Bandit Clan hover, decent models to choose from. While unable let to transport internally, still able to via extremely, so something fast in BA.
TT
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Does the Society get LTV-4s? The SLDF had them, and a couple of those could be nice, and fit well with your speed focus. They're only marginally more expensive than Sprites, if you've got any unused BV in your force.
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Bandit Clan hover, decent models to choose from. While unable let to transport internally, still able to via extremely, so something fast in BA.
TT
Bandits have be re-errata-ed to be Omnis, so they can carry BA externally. I suppose that I could stuff some Clan Foot or Jump troopers inside, to make use of that space, that's even more BV. I would probably go with the Bandit A (C), in this case.
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Random thought: We should totally start a petition to change the name of the Basilisk-Q to Thagomizer.
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Random thought: We should totally start a petition to change the name of the Basilisk-Q to Thagomizer.
That depends, I have been thinking of calling it Facehugger.
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Doesn't really hug faces though, and as far as I can remember, it's the only unit in all of Battletech with a spiked tail. :)
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Random thought: We should totally start a petition to change the name of the Basilisk-Q to Thagomizer.
Random thought: we should start a petition to finance an IWM sculpt
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Random thought: we should start a petition to finance an IWM sculpt
Of course.
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Does anyone want to take a stab at making the meanest 5K or 10K BV2 Society forces possible? Here's my take for 5K:
5x Boggatt 2
2x LBX Carriers
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Does anyone want to take a stab at making the meanest 5K or 10K BV2 Society forces possible?
I’ll bite on the 5K force:
5x Vali (653/3265 BV2)
- Standard, Cluster, Homing, and Thunder Arrow IV (maybe Inferno, if allowed, or Smoke)
5x Satyr 4 (109/545 BV2)
- 7/11 Light TAG platform w/ AP Gauss
5x Flatbed Truck (34/170 BV2)
- 5/8 Charging Speed
5x Basilisk B (Quad) (218/1090 BV2)
- 8/12(16) Feralized Melee Weapon w/Electronic Discharge Armor
Total = 5070 BV2
Notes:
For sticklers, total BV2 could probably be min/maxed to under 5K by lowering the gunnery skills on the Trucks and Basilisk Bs, which don’t use them.
Technically, the Satyr 4 does not appear on the Society MUL, but it is on Hellion, Cat, and Raven MULs.
With 15 mobile units in the foreground and five Arrow IV launchers in the backfield, this force is designed to use superior numbers and speed to gang up on a couple Clan units per turn, cripple or eliminate them, and then move onto the next.
The Valis are vulnerable to fast movers, so the most mobile Clan opponents should be targeted first.
Against Clan omnimechs and battlemechs, a smart Society player will match the Valis’ Arrow IV rounds to the damage locations inflicted by the other Society units. The Trucks and Basilisks concentrate damage on a mech’s legs. Their attacks should be combined with Thunder rounds. When the Satyrs get a upper body hit with a Homing round, then Cluster rounds, which roll on the Shot From Above Table, should follow.
Mechs shut down by the Basilisks’ electronic discharge armor or crippled by leg damage from the Basilisks’ melee attack, the Trucks’ charges, or the Valis’ Thunder can be ignored and finished off once all the other Clan opponents are immobilized or dead.
Against Clan battle armor, the Valis’ standard, cluster, and inferno Arrow IV rounds are the preferred attack. But in a pinch, the Feralized melee attack of each Basilisk can also kill an Elemental per turn.
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That's a lot of firepower and initiative sinks, although there's no hole punching units. It's basically all 5 pt clusters. Have you actually tried using them? Since nothing in your force has more than about 20 armor/hit location, I'd be kind of afraid that something fast like a Bandit C A or a Jenner IIC 2 would tear this force apart though.
I was pretty enamored Flatbed LRM trucks for a while, but with their paper thin armor, I'm not sure if they're worth the points, unless you had something that was a huge distraction like a Demolisher C or something. Lately, I've been looking at the Hover APC (LRM) or the Heavy Hover APC (LRM) as replacements Flatbed LRM trucks because they are fast enough to get into position, have slightly more armor and are conceivably agile enough to dictate range (although lack of a turret hurts this).
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That's a lot of firepower and initiative sinks, although there's no hole punching units. It's basically all 5 pt clusters.
The Arrow IV Homing rounds from the Valis do 20-points of damage to one hit location, like an AC/20.
The frenzy attack of the Basilisks deals 12 points of damage only to the legs of mechs. Two Basilisks can frenzy on a mech per turn (they must be in the same hex), so that’s a potential 24 points of damage to the legs of a single mech in a single turn.
Similarly, the charge attack of the Trucks deals up to 7 points of damage only to the legs of mechs. Add a Truck charge to two Basilisks, and you’re doing 31 points of potential damage to the legs of a single mech in a single turn.
This is overly simplistic, but you could have two teams of two Valis, two Satyrs, two Basilisks, and a Truck. In the first turn of combat, each of those two teams could target a Clan mech with two, 20-point, Arrow IV Homing rounds and up to 31 points of leg damage. And you’d still have a Vali, a Satyr, a Basilisk, and three trucks left over to target/harass/block other Clan opponents.
In the initial turns of combat, this setup has the potential to leave a couple to several Clan mechs with large holes in their armor and/or exposed/crippled legs (if they haven’t already fallen over).
The turns after that are cleanup with the other types of Arrow IV rounds.
Clan mechs that have taken an Arrow IV Homing round to their torso or arms get Arrow IV Cluster rounds, which roll on the Shot From Above Table, which concentrates damage on the upper body (and also has a 1-in-6 chance of a head hit).
Clan mechs with exposed legs get surrounded by Arrow IV Thunder (FASCAM or scatterable mine) rounds.
Downed Clan mechs and battle armor get standard Arrow IV rounds until they’re dead.
Surviving Basilisks, Trucks, and Satyrs can add their frenzy attacks, charges, and AP Gauss to the cleanup effort.
Arrow IV Inferno rounds could also cripple Clan mechs in the first couple rounds, but are a Cappie invention and technically not Clantech.
Have you actually tried using them?
Not really because this is a Society version of the old swarm-of-Savannah-Masters or “quantity-has-a-quality-all-its-own” force/tactic, which no opponent with half a brain would let me field against a couple or few Clan mechs in a pick-up game.
It’s really a GM force for screwing with a Clan PC unit and taking them down a couple notches. And I have not had that opportunity.
Since nothing in your force has more than about 20 armor/hit location, I'd be kind of afraid that something fast like a Bandit C A or a Jenner IIC 2 would tear this force apart though.
That is the vulnerability of this force, especially the Valis. If the opponent has fast movers, you have to go after them first so they don’t remain mobile/active enough to threaten the Arrow IV support from the Valis.
But with their 8/12(16) movement, the Basilisks can threaten practically any fast-mover on the field. The thinly armored legs of lighter, faster mechs are especially vulnerable to the Basilisks’ frenzy attacks, and combat vehicles are especially prone to shutdown from the Basilisks’ Electronic Discharge armor attacks.
At 7/11, the Satyrs are also no slouches in countering fast-movers. And the thin armor of lighter mechs and vehicles are vulnerable to the AC/20-like hits of the Arrow IV Homing rounds guided by the Satyrs’ Light TAG units.
Even the 5/8 Trucks can counter some enemy movement, even surround enemy units, in a pinch.
I was pretty enamored Flatbed LRM trucks for a while, but with their paper thin armor, I'm not sure if they're worth the points, unless you had something that was a huge distraction like a Demolisher C or something. Lately, I've been looking at the Hover APC (LRM) or the Heavy Hover APC (LRM) as replacements Flatbed LRM trucks because they are fast enough to get into position, have slightly more armor and are conceivably agile enough to dictate range (although lack of a turret hurts this).
As long as you’re willing to sacrifice them in a kamikaze charge attack or two or to block enemy units, standard Flatbed Trucks make the best use of a little leftover BV2. You can get five standard Flatbed Trucks for the BV2 of one Flatbed Truck (LRM).
I’d rather have five vehicles that could add to the Basilisks’ crippling leg damage with sacrificial charges than one vehicle popping off an LRM-5 every turn (as valuable as an LRM-5 can sometimes be, especially with smoke or mine rounds).
This is even more true with the higher BV2 of the APCs. I can buy six to eight kamikaze standard Flatbed Trucks for the BV2 of one Hover APC (LRM) or Heavy Hover APC (LRM).
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The Arrow IV Homing rounds from the Valis do 20-points of damage to one hit location, like an AC/20.
I could have sworn all artillery was 5 point clusters. I guess that I should lay off the necrosia for a bit...
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A unit may be the target of only one charge/ram in a single turn.
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I could have sworn all artillery was 5 point clusters. I guess that I should lay off the necrosia for a bit...
Copperhead rounds for tube artillery also inflict concentrated damage to one hit location. Not sure if they are available to Clans/Society. Rediscovered by Cappies.
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*whispers*
"Hail Hydra..." :thumbsup:
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Copperhead rounds for tube artillery also inflict concentrated damage to one hit location. Not sure if they are available to Clans/Society. Rediscovered by Cappies.
In my head-canon, I rationalize that since the Society was able to reproduce Chamelon LPS and Null Sig systems from SLDF blueprints, and given that SLDF also came up with Copperhead rounds, that means that they also have access to those munitions. Offboard Society Long Toms with Copperhead rounds have crossed my mind a few times...
I think what I appreciate most about playing Society is that it's basically a license to be munchy, but with style.
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I think what I appreciate most about playing Society is that it's basically a license to be munchy, but with style.
I enjoy the high-low aspect of the Society. You've got bleeding-edge mechs the equal or superior of anything out there, but you're still a tiny guerrilla army who's forced to bulk out your forces with mooks, often mooks with utter crap (at least by Clan standards) gear. It's a mix that requires a very different way of thinking than most other Battletech factions, and also why I also love the Stupid Name-era Scorpions.
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A unit may be the target of only one charge/ram in a single turn.
Apologies for my enthusiasm. Corrected above.
In my head-canon, I rationalize that since the Society was able to reproduce Chamelon LPS and Null Sig systems from SLDF blueprints, and given that SLDF also came up with Copperhead rounds, that means that they also have access to those munitions.
I’d agree. (But I’m not your opponent.)
I enjoy the high-low aspect of the Society. You've got bleeding-edge mechs the equal or superior of anything out there, but you're still a tiny guerrilla army who's forced to bulk out your forces with mooks, often mooks with utter crap (at least by Clan standards) gear. It's a mix that requires a very different way of thinking than most other Battletech factions, and also why I also love the Stupid Name-era Scorpions.
The Society and Castillian/Hansa/Hellion Scorpions definitely have a more established and more exotic high/low mix. But most any faction can field a similar high/low force, especially on the defensive. Logically, elite House mech regiments should be working with or relieving junky planetary militia and local industrialmechs almost any time they’re repelling a planetary assault, for example.
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Very true. The fun of the Society and Scorpions is that with them, you regularly see the elite stuff and the junk in the same unit, not merely on the same continent. :thumbsup:
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Very true. The fun of the Society and Scorpions is that with them, you regularly see the elite stuff and the junk in the same unit, not merely on the same continent. :thumbsup:
Exactly. With the Society, I get to use vehicles with BAR armor, mines, Mechs with C3 and Chameleon LPS, LPL + TC, PBI with field guns, buckets of LB-X Carriers, massed artillery, Savannah Master Swarms (Gabriels), and other fun toys (iATMS etc), and of course, shameless amounts of Protomechs, without really feeling bad about it (I use 4/5 or 4/6 pilots).
Scorpions are just weird ;D
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Good old Pulse Rifles and standard support Autocannon on clean Standard Clan Jump Infantry, pouring out of support tanks, who mind you, have TAG.
TT
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Totally random: if there was a Gargoyle Z, what would you speculate was its loadout? Would it be a ripoff of the Gargoyle E with a Nova CEWS or something entirely different?
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Totally random: if there was a Gargoyle Z, what would you speculate was its loadout? Would it be a ripoff of the Gargoyle E with a Nova CEWS or something entirely different?
Make it look like the Prime, ERLL + iATM6 on each arm and a Nova in the CT.
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Make it look like the Prime, ERLL + iATM6 on each arm and a Nova in the CT.
Right I also thought of this. My version was very similar with 2x ERLL + 4x iATM3(60) TC, Nova and LAMS in the CT. Feels kind of anemic though. Other ideas were as follows:
2x ERPPC + 2x iATM3(40) + TC/or Supercharger
Gauss(16) + 5x iHML + 1x DHS + Nova
2x ERLL + RAC5(40) + Nova
4x iATM3(60) + 5x iHML + TC + 2x DHS + Supercharger
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What I really missed in the Society Uprising were Warriors which were genetically far more advanced than the "official" warrior caste People.
There were some genetic Augments but this were more adhoc Augments not the products of some decades of secret researchment.
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What I really missed in the Society Uprising were Warriors which were genetically far more advanced than the "official" warrior caste People.
There were some genetic Augments but this were more adhoc Augments not the products of some decades of secret researchment.
Something like the Elstars or Tank Warriors?
They had the mutant infantry (and should have been using the Serum that caused the first Hellion Civil War.) Most Clanners are subject to genetic experimentation but simply as an ongoing project for fitness not a dedicated effort to give them truly superhuman abilities. Most of the phenotypes are human just selected for specific tasks and subjected to a very hard training regime to prepare them for that endeavor.
I don't know the Society was rooted in its respect for the Clan way of Genetics (and Eugenics, Euthenics, and the like) which is simply survival of the fittest just done with greater scientific rigor. They were drawn out into the open due to the numbers of Reavings which put Warriors in charge of what they thought was the sacred duty of the Scientists.
Etienne and his pals might have been planning the next human revolution but we don't really get that as the dominant goal of the Society in the fiction. They wanted Protos so they could recycle failed warriors and take over with a minimum of resource investment (as those resources could be better invested in SCIENCE!). Most of their weapons were indirect or creative uses for existing technologies.
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What would you give Society PBI to be actually effective and threatening, but also have that mutagenic viral therapy flavor?
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I don't really remember the exact BV for our forces (maybe 8k?) but we had a four way game years ago and Weirdo had a Dark Age Marik force that I only really remember featuring an Anzu and Juliano. I had a partner who was also fielding Society (Osteon Prime is the only thing I remember from his because he lit up some BA with iATM Inferno rounds and they went "Pop"). Anyway, the highlight of the day was the Osteon needing 0's Septicimia needing 2's to hit Weirdo's Anzu out at like 19 or 20 hexes. It was incredibly dirty, though the star of the game was the Von Luckner who got pillboxes by the Juliano in the middle of the map sheet and proceeded to eat up way too much of Weirdo's fire. I believe he finally died on the last turn, but the Juliano was going to die the next turn and my 'Mechs were doing pretty well if I recall. It's been like, six or seven years so yeah, memory's fuzzy and all that!
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I assume you mean for regular BT play since the RPG rules for this are in WoR.
My question was with respect to standard BT rules, actually. I know that "plain" Dark Caste PBI with bolt action rifles and a few SRMs were the most common, but that's not how I roll. I demand shenanigans :D
Which of these types would you most want to abuse in a Society unit:
- Hover infantry that moves 5MP with Mauser IIC
- Jump infantry with heavy weapons such as Bear Hunters/Support Lasers (w/ extra helping of suicide sauce)
- Motorized infantry with field guns, especially Arrow IV
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Definitely the hover infantry, although arm them with the Clan Auto Grenade Launcher and Mausers. Its a nasty raiding force and cheap
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Definitely the hover infantry, although arm them with the Clan Auto Grenade Launcher and Mausers. Its a nasty raiding force and cheap
That's what I was thinking, too. Does the Clan Auto Grenade Launcher add additional damage on top of the Mausers?
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Definitely the hover infantry, although arm them with the Clan Auto Grenade Launcher and Mausers. Its a nasty raiding force and cheap
What about the Boreas hoverbike from AtoW?
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I think the Boreas and equivalent are always abstracted into hover mechanized troops, a 5 man squad will do the same amount of damage with either weapon but I don't typically give my hover mechanized troops Mauser IICs, just regular Pulse Laser Rifles or Gauss SMGs which are quite inferior. Mausers are reserved for Commandos and Assault Troops
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I'd think the Society would have plenty of Mauser IICs. By memory, the rifle was decently abundant within the Clans by the 3070s, and the Society had plenty of opportunity to get hands on quite a few of them. I don't think every Society infantryman would have gotten a Mauser IIC, but I do think they'd be a little bit more widespread. Infantry command Uns at least should have some.
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I think the Boreas and equivalent are always abstracted into hover mechanized troops, a 5 man squad will do the same amount of damage with either weapon but I don't typically give my hover mechanized troops Mauser IICs, just regular Pulse Laser Rifles or Gauss SMGs which are quite inferior. Mausers are reserved for Commandos and Assault Troops
You mean you're not trying to make your infantry as munchy as possible? :'(
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Been pondering...
So, we know one of the Stone Lions' sort of niches, aside from the usual Hell's Horses stuff, was using captured Society Tech which wasn't labeled dezgra and studying much of the tech that was. So, random thought, if and when we see the homeworlds again, what are the odds that many Stone Lion designs and forces tend to look a little bit Society-y? Lots of ProtoMech stars with mag clamps and weird designs (which even the Horses got into, having nicked a few Society quads and Ultraheavies to reverse engineer and make their own), a decent emphasis on Improved ATMs and Lasers as well as the odd ER Pulse here and there, and probably some powerful Nova-inspired ECM/Active Probe gear. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if, being former Horses and thus favoring cooperation, the Stone Lions may have even pulled a sneaky at some point to pull apart Nova and make their own C3 system.
Thoughts?
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I could see the Stone Lions using MagClamp Protos and more emphasis on regular ATMs, there is the Watchdog which is the ECM/AP but not C3 equipped version of the Nova gear. I don't see ER Pulses catching on however and imagine the iATMs were kept pretty close to the chest (and unfun in the tabletop game)
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there is the Watchdog which is the ECM/AP but not C3 equipped version of the Nova gear.
Not quite, since Nova still overpowers basically anything. I'd imagine they'd develop ECM/AP suite(s) that are at least up to par with that, if only just in case someone decides to start using Nova again. It would also give them, at least for a time, an uncontested edge in shutting down C3, enemy ECM lances, stealth armor ambushes, and other well-known IS dezgra tactics.
I don't see ER Pulses catching on however
Yeah, me neither, but I figure if anyone might have a few left over it might be the Lions. I'd more expect them to give iHLs a whirl.
and imagine the iATMs were kept pretty close to the chest (and unfun in the tabletop game)
If memory serves, iATMs were one of the pieces of Society tech that the Lions were allowed to dissect (if memory serves under the agreement that they would share their results with the High Council and, by extension, the rest of the Clans). As for the balance, yeah, they were really rough against the Clans, but there's two factors that I think would temper them in the event of a Clan Invasion 2. First, IMP and IIW almost certainly wouldn't make a comeback; granted, they're not the reason everyone fears iATMs, but they still offer quite a lot in their ability to debilitate opponents. Second, and perhaps more importantly, is the relative prevalence of Angel ECM in the Inner Sphere by now—said ECM being able to turn Streak missiles into standard Cluster Hits-rolling plebs, without even the Artemis bonus of standard ATMs. Assuming the ECCM from the aforementioned hypothetical ECM suite doesn't cover the whole dadgum map, there is at least one huge counter to iATMs that can be reasonably reliably obtained by any IS faction. Throw in an AMS for good measure, and even HE iATMs can be dealt with fairly reasonably.
EDIT: Oh, and apparently RISC Viral Jammers, for as uncommon as they are, counter Nova, by the way.
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I was trying to make an Erinyes design that was actually slightly useful. My first thought was give it an LRM1 and make it just fast enough (7/11) to stay out of trouble. The other thought would be to forego weapons entirely and give it only EDP armor, like a pint sized Basilisk Q2, but much cheaper. However, unlike the Basilisk Q, it probably won't survive multiple engagements. Could the Society rationalize using essentially suicide troops when Protomech pilots are so precious though?
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I was trying to make an Erinyes design that was actually slightly useful. My first thought was give it an LRM1 and make it just fast enough (7/11) to stay out of trouble. The other thought would be to forego weapons entirely and give it only EDP armor, like a pint sized Basilisk Q2, but much cheaper. However, unlike the Basilisk Q, it probably won't survive multiple engagements. Could the Society rationalize using essentially suicide troops when Protomech pilots are so precious though?
It might be something they would use for captured enemy troops that they have a score to settle with.
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It might be something they would use for captured enemy troops that they have a score to settle with.
Or simply create "subhumans" they can throw at the enemy. You know like that example that one scientist created to show that quad Protomechs could work
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Or simply create "subhumans" they can throw at the enemy. You know like that example that one scientist created to show that quad Protomechs could work
Pretty much. Find some ASF dropouts and pump them on meth and Feralize. They don't even need to be good pilots, because they would be performing melee attacks. An EDP Erinyes would be the cheapest way to get EDP effects on the field
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Does anyone think that the Society had limited access to semi-guided LRMs? Perhaps as isorla from battling the IS Houses? Obviously for SLDF Brian Cache vehicles only
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Does anyone think that the Society had limited access to semi-guided LRMs? Perhaps as isorla from battling the IS Houses? Obviously for SLDF Brian Cache vehicles only
There's not reason they couldn't have developed their own, there are multiple instances particularly the death of Ulrich Kerensky where TAG has drawn missile fire.
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Pretty much. Find some ASF dropouts and pump them on meth and Feralize. They don't even need to be good pilots, because they would be performing melee attacks. An EDP Erinyes would be the cheapest way to get EDP effects on the field
Hey don't knock the old girl, she was made to look bad, so Proto research would not continue, given 5 or 10 more tons, she would have made a great missile support for the Roc and future models
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There's not reason they couldn't have developed their own, there are multiple instances particularly the death of Ulrich Kerensky where TAG has drawn missile fire.
Don't forget that TAG can designate for normal missiles too, albeit much less efficiently than with S-Gs.
To answer the original question though: I can see it. Probably not isorla, but black market trade is always a thing and there was nearly a decade of peace for merchants, free guilders, and dark caste to make connections with their spheroid equivalents. I would agree that it would be an extremely limited stock, though.
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Basically, I've been toying with the idea of using a couple Uns of Flatbed LRM or Rotunda LRM vees and fire indirectly from behind cover. They could use either NARC or Semi-Guided ammo to facilitate this tactic. There are lots of potential TAG spotters but only a few NARC platforms (I only really like the Royal Zephyr). I suppose one could rationalize getting limited amounts of Semi-Guided ammo in much the same way that MagClamps were obtained via the Merchant Caste.