Transport Bay Capacities RE: Extra Equipment

[SCC]

Ok, the TM says that a transport bay has room for a vehicle ('Mech, ASF, CV etc...), it's crew and support staff, but what can a transport bay carry when dealing with a unit that carries extra equipment, such as:
A)Omni pods?
B)True Hand Held weapons (like on the AXM-6T and -6X and QKD-8X)?
C) ASF's external weapons
D) Field gunner infantry (transport bays aboard dropship, not compartments on APC's)
E) Ammo, When transporting is the 'Mechs ammo in the 'Mech, in the bay or some where else and an/could extra ammo for the 'Mech be carried in the bay? Also Disposable weapons for infantry/BA and one-shot launchers, where are they carried?

[guardiandashi]

in general every transport bay has some "discressional or unused weight" re the ammo example I expect ammo and ordnance would be stored in designated storage areas and not loaded into combat units until shortly before they deploy

[Sigma]

A mech cubicle weighs 150 tons. It can carry 100 tons worth of stuff.

And that's why the spare arm for my Atlas was in Jenny's Locust bay Sarge.

[guardiandashi]

A mech cubicle weighs 150 tons. It can carry 100 tons worth of stuff.

And that's why the spare arm for my Atlas was in Jenny's Locust bay Sarge.

(or in the other 80 tons of weight the locust bay provides if not actually in the locust's bay)

[Sigma]

(or in the other 80 tons of weight the locust bay provides if not actually in the locust's bay)

That's the joke. It's like, "Crate of machine gun ammo, crate of machine gun ammo, spare ML, giant hand, WAIT WHAT?"

[MadVoorpak]

Yeah, my group if you have 40 t of mech in  mech bay.

You can use some of that extra storage space.

[Orin J.]

That's the joke. It's like, "Crate of machine gun ammo, crate of machine gun ammo, spare ML, giant hand, WAIT WHAT?"

"but commander, i thought it was a new cargo attachment for my locust! What do you mean the Atlas needs it back?"

[Matti]

Ok, the TM says that a transport bay has room for a vehicle ('Mech, ASF, CV etc...), it's crew and support staff

Crew accommodations are provided for vehicle crews, or MechWarrior, or fighter pilot of respective bays. In addition of combat personnel one technician can be included, NOT whole Tech Team. 'Mech and ASF Bays have enough tonnage to hold the personnel along with 100 ton unit. But vehicle bays are broken: Light Vehicle Bay takes 50 ton slice from the DropShip and can hold 50 ton Vedette Medium Tank along with its 4 man crew and vehicle technician; do they sleep inside the tank?

but what can a transport bay carry when dealing with a unit that carries extra equipment, such as:
A)Omni pods?
B)True Hand Held weapons (like on the AXM-6T and -6X and QKD-8X)?
C) ASF's external weapons
D) Field gunner infantry (transport bays aboard dropship, not compartments on APC's)
E) Ammo, When transporting is the 'Mechs ammo in the 'Mech, in the bay or some where else and an/could extra ammo for the 'Mech be carried in the bay? Also Disposable weapons for infantry/BA and one-shot launchers, where are they carried?

A) Only those currently mounted in the unit, rest goes to Cargo Bay
B) If unit in question weighs 100 tons, hand held weapon has to go to Cargo Bay
C) Cargo Bay by the rules, though those could maybe be fitted on the plane before launch
D) Nothing in the rules, but I guess Field Gun goes to Cargo Bay
E) Unit can have all the ammo it can carry, all other ammo goes to Cargo Bay

But as others have mentioned, 20 ton Locust in 'Mech Bay would waste 80 tons of potential cargo capacity. So 'Mech Bay with Locust on it could hold 80 tons worth of ammo, armour, spare parts, personnel consumables (food, water, toilet paper...) and whatever else you can think of. How that affects to maintenance, repairs, and orbital dropping is anybody's guess.

[boilerman]

A mech cubicle weighs 150 tons. It can carry 100 tons worth of stuff.

And that's why the spare arm for my Atlas was in Jenny's Locust bay Sarge.

Yea that's how I do it, 50 tons is for the physical bay, its equipment and accommodations.  If the unit stored in the bay is not of the maximum mass for a vehicle of that bay type the difference can be used for cargo.  And has been mentioned before in other threads BT DropShips are huge gas bags relative to their mass so it doesn't have to physically be in the bay. 

For my own campaign I have house ruled that more than 1 unit can be placed in a bay, with penalties of course for some balance. For 'Mech and ASF bays 2 is the max regardless and their combined mass cannot be more that half the capacity of the bay.  So combined 2 'Mechs in the same bay cannot mass more than 50 tons.  This simulates the limited floor space in the respective bays.

For vehicle bays the combined mass of the vehicles in the bay is 5% less than the bay capacity for each unit placed in the bay.  Example:  for a 50ton light vehicle bay I could place 6 Savannah Masters in it or 2 20-ton tanks.  Vehicles tend to be pretty boxy and low pressure relative to area they entire vehicle covers so they can be packed more tightly than 'Mechs and ASFs.

The penalties are additional maintenance and unloading time.  Not that I keep close track of either but maintenance and unloading time doubles for each vehicle in the bay.  IIRC it takes 1 turn and half a unit's MP to dismount a carrying unit so using the above example the first Savannah Master would take 12 turns to unload, the 2nd one would take 10 turns etc.  In total it would take 43 turns to unload all 6 Savannah Masters, which is only a little over 7 minutes.

The navy term for 2 sailors using the same rack, AKA bunk, at different times of course, is hot racking so I call doing this hot loading a bay.  If a DropShip is in the leading element of a raid or assault I would not hot load bays.  Hot loading in my opinion is for DropShips landing in a relatively safe landing zone, although it might be close to the front.

[SCC]

Crew accommodations are provided for vehicle crews, or MechWarrior, or fighter pilot of respective bays. In addition of combat personnel one technician can be included, NOT whole Tech Team. 'Mech and ASF Bays have enough tonnage to hold the personnel along with 100 ton unit. But vehicle bays are broken: Light Vehicle Bay takes 50 ton slice from the DropShip and can hold 50 ton Vedette Medium Tank along with its 4 man crew and vehicle technician; do they sleep inside the tank?

ASF/'Mech bays pay a penalty for exo-atmo launch capability and for 'Mech bays, the height of the 'Mech (take a look at StratOps pg 42 for this last one)

[Jackmc]

do they sleep inside the tank?

Matti, you should know the setting/game well enough by now to know that's a mass slice not a volume slice.

ASF/'Mech bays pay a penalty for  the height of the 'Mech (take a look at StratOps pg 42 for this last one)

Umm, no.  That page does not say what you think it says.  Dropships have incredible amounts of volume to spare and the 150 tons for a cubicle is a mass charge not a volume one.


-Jackmc

[FedComGirl]

Crew accommodations are provided for vehicle crews, or MechWarrior, or fighter pilot of respective bays. In addition of combat personnel one technician can be included, NOT whole Tech Team. 'Mech and ASF Bays have enough tonnage to hold the personnel along with 100 ton unit. But vehicle bays are broken: Light Vehicle Bay takes 50 ton slice from the DropShip and can hold 50 ton Vedette Medium Tank along with its 4 man crew and vehicle technician; do they sleep inside the tank?

That is a good question. It also applies to all vehicle bay sizes, small craft bays, and protomech bays. The last one seems especially broken now that we have Ultra-Heavy Protomechs. How can a 50 ton bay carry 75 tons of Protomechs, repair gantries for them and quarters for their drivers, and their techs?

ASF/'Mech bays pay a penalty for exo-atmo launch capability and for 'Mech bays, the height of the 'Mech (take a look at StratOps pg 42 for this last one)

Shouldn't that also apply to Small Craft Bays as well?

[Matti]

Matti, you should know the setting/game well enough by now to know that's a mass slice not a volume slice.

Yes it is. But accommodations for vehicle crew (beds, toilets, air circulation...) should take some mass slice too. Not to forget tools and equipment for vehicle maintenance & repairs.

[Jackmc]

Yes it is. But accommodations for vehicle crew (beds, toilets, air circulation...) should take some mass slice too. Not to forget tools and equipment for vehicle maintenance & repairs.

I totally agree.


-Jackmc

[Jackmc]

Shouldn't that also apply to Small Craft Bays as well?

I had to think about this one and a couple of rulesets ago I would have agreed with you, but with the current rules that say that Small Craft must have actual quarters for their crew, I'd say no since it'd be assumed that the crew is living onboard the SC.  that said, there should still be a smaller mass charge to accoutn for the launch catapult.  Which illustrates an issue i wish would change in the deisng rules. 

Currently, for simplicity's sake, every thing is bundled together in one convient line item called a cubicle.  Many other game systems break down that line item and let you pick ala carte.  Frex.  The mass penalty for a fighter cubicle makes sense as long as the number of cubicles is equal or less than twice the number of launch doors on the craft since tha's how many craft can launch per turn and  is a pretty good indication of how many catapults the craft has.  But then you have something like a Thera which has far more fighters than it can launch at once yet all those extra fighters are still paying for a catapult they can't use.  On the flip side you might want to build a depot CV like the IJN Shinano and want far more maintenance capability than launch capability.

-Jackmc

[evilauthor]

I had to think about this one and a couple of rulesets ago I would have agreed with you, but with the current rules that say that Small Craft must have actual quarters for their crew, I'd say no since it'd be assumed that the crew is living onboard the SC.  that said, there should still be a smaller mass charge to accoutn for the launch catapult.  Which illustrates an issue i wish would change in the deisng rules. 

Huh. I thought shuttles just took off from their parent ships under their own power, no catapult required. The doors they use are assumed to be part of the ship's Structure and thus take no discrete tonnage of their own.

It's fighters and mechs that need to be deployed in space in a hurry that actually need catapults.

Of course, I like to use Shuttle Bays as simply extra heavy Fighter Bays like that one canon Warship was fluffed to do. If you have the spare tonnage, why NOT allocate an extra 50 tons to the needs of each fighter you're carrying?

[Jackmc]

Huh. I thought shuttles just took off from their parent ships under their own power, no catapult required.

Technically, asf's don't need the catapult either.  However regardless of whether your an asf or SC, a catapult is a good idea for leaving a CV that's manuvering because you don't want an engine failure (which in typically manifest during takeoff, in RL) resulting in you getting either run over by the cv or caught in the exhaust of its drive.  for cv's at rest, I wouldn't expect catapults to be used because why stress your asf/sc's aeroframe unnecessarily?


-Jackmc

[FedComGirl]

I had to think about this one and a couple of rulesets ago I would have agreed with you, but with the current rules that say that Small Craft must have actual quarters for their crew, I'd say no since it'd be assumed that the crew is living onboard the SC.  that said, there should still be a smaller mass charge to accoutn for the launch catapult.  Which illustrates an issue i wish would change in the deisng rules. 

Then wouldn't the vehicle crews also be sleeping in their vehicles? And how many SC have living quarters, or vehicles for that matter? Very few. So why are Mechs, Fighters, and Infantry, the only ones who have to pay extra for accomidations for crew and techs and repair equipement and so on?

Currently, for simplicity's sake, every thing is bundled together in one convient line item called a cubicle.  Many other game systems break down that line item and let you pick ala carte.  Frex.  The mass penalty for a fighter cubicle makes sense as long as the number of cubicles is equal or less than twice the number of launch doors on the craft since tha's how many craft can launch per turn and  is a pretty good indication of how many catapults the craft has.  But then you have something like a Thera which has far more fighters than it can launch at once yet all those extra fighters are still paying for a catapult they can't use.  On the flip side you might want to build a depot CV like the IJN Shinano and want far more maintenance capability than launch capability.

You can hand weave the fighter cubiles saying one has the catapult and others have more repair equipment. It can be explained. What isn't explained with where the vehicle/small craft crew and tech sleeps or where they're repair equipment is stored. They really should have the same extra weight the other cubicles have.

Huh. I thought shuttles just took off from their parent ships under their own power, no catapult required. The doors they use are assumed to be part of the ship's Structure and thus take no discrete tonnage of their own.

It's fighters and mechs that need to be deployed in space in a hurry that actually need catapults.

Of course, I like to use Shuttle Bays as simply extra heavy Fighter Bays like that one canon Warship was fluffed to do. If you have the spare tonnage, why NOT allocate an extra 50 tons to the needs of each fighter you're carrying?

There's combat Small Craft as well. They'd need to be launched in a hurry too since they are ultra heavy fighters.


-Jackmc

[Jackmc]

Then wouldn't the vehicle crews also be sleeping in their vehicles?

unless they're specifically added, combat vees don't having quarters they have short-term seating.

And how many SC have living quarters

Under the current ruleset, all of them.  SC don't have seating for crew, they have long-term quarters.

-Jackmc

[Fireangel]

I had to think about this one and a couple of rulesets ago I would have agreed with you, but with the current rules that say that Small Craft must have actual quarters for their crew, I'd say no since it'd be assumed that the crew is living onboard the SC.  that said, there should still be a smaller mass charge to accoutn for the launch catapult.  Which illustrates an issue i wish would change in the deisng rules. 

I kinda assume that the SC "plugs into" the carrier's LS system while docked; this can provide the LS boost to the entire LS system needed to account for the SC crew/techs while on the carrier.

Currently, for simplicity's sake, every thing is bundled together in one convient line item called a cubicle.  Many other game systems break down that line item and let you pick ala carte.  Frex.  The mass penalty for a fighter cubicle makes sense as long as the number of cubicles is equal or less than twice the number of launch doors on the craft since tha's how many craft can launch per turn and  is a pretty good indication of how many catapults the craft has.  But then you have something like a Thera which has far more fighters than it can launch at once yet all those extra fighters are still paying for a catapult they can't use.  On the flip side you might want to build a depot CV like the IJN Shinano and want far more maintenance capability than launch capability.

-Jackmc

The tonnage might account for the machinery needed to move the ready fighter into launch position from its bay to the door.

[FedComGirl]

unless they're specifically added, combat vees don't having quarters they have short-term seating.

Actually combat vehicles aren't allowed to mount them even though some are fluffed as having them.

Under the current ruleset, all of them.  SC don't have seating for crew, they have long-term quarters.

-Jackmc

You're right. I was thinking of examples that didn't have them.

I kinda assume that the SC "plugs into" the carrier's LS system while docked; this can provide the LS boost to the entire LS system needed to account for the SC crew/techs while on the carrier.

The tonnage might account for the machinery needed to move the ready fighter into launch position from its bay to the door.

The Bays also provide a place for repairs and maintenance to be done but some Bays don't have that factored in.

[Jackmc]

The Bays also provide a place for repairs and maintenance to be done but some Bays don't have that factored in.

Yeah, but fortunately that's fairly easy to figure out.  3 MFB's = a cubicle when it comes to maintenance/repairs.  So there's you mass slice for that capability.

-Jackmc

[Nebfer]

Well the only way for vehicle bays to support their crews is if one assumes that most bays do not fit more than 90/95 tons worth of vehicle in them and the rest is in fact crew space and repair equipment. Though this dose not work if your transporting a company of say 50 or 100 ton tanks in a dropship that only has 12 light or heavy vehicle bays... The same can be done with Small craft though they also have the option of living on their units....

[Fireangel]

The accommodations for bay personnel are minimal; cots that fold up into the wall, a basic head and maybe the dropship equivalent of a sink.

[evilauthor]

The accommodations for bay personnel are minimal; cots that fold up into the wall, a basic head and maybe the dropship equivalent of a sink.

And no air recycling whatsoever? I'm pretty sure THAT takes up a significant amount of mass per person. I've always assumed crew quarters had that factored into their tonnage as well.

OTOH, who knows? Given how low density dropships are, they may well carry enough air that it won't all go bad before all the extra passengers use it all up.

[Jackmc]

And no air recycling whatsoever?

Nope.  Strat Ops specifically mentions that bay personnel have to be supported by the ship's life support system and that it messes with the balence required to run as a closed loop system requiring the ship's lifesupport to run in open mode with it's greater consumables requirement per person in a bay.

-Jackmc

[DarthRads]

My house rule is dedicated light/medium/heavy/assault bays this turns droppers into dedicated carriers of specific units.

LGT = 50t
MED = 75t
HVY = 110t
AST = 150t

A Heavy can be carried in an Assault bay but not in a medium bay...

With this rule, changing mechs becomes a big deal as it affects transport...

[FedComGirl]

Interesting. So that applies to mechs as well? I think transports would all go with the largest one just so they could be versitile and transport more.

Maybe just adding 50 tons to the bays to cover quarters, tools, drop mechanisms, etc, would work? Protomechs would still have to have either a second larger bay for the new Ultras or increase the weight of the current one to 100 tons.

[DarthRads]

Interesting. So that applies to mechs as well? I think transports would all go with the largest one just so they could be versitile and transport more.

Maybe just adding 50 tons to the bays to cover quarters, tools, drop mechanisms, etc, would work? Protomechs would still have to have either a second larger bay for the new Ultras or increase the weight of the current one to 100 tons.

Under my rule a Super Heavy bay would be 300t (max capacity +50%)

[FedComGirl]

Shouldn't the Light Bay be 37.5 tons then?

[Dragon Cat]

One thing I've always thought the Mech bay weighs 150 tons but that's for holding it, maintaining and supporting the Mech it says nothing about the capacity of the bay

That is the same for all Mechs no matter the size so 150 tons pays for all the maintenance tools and supplies AND allows the ship to carry upto 100 tons of Mech

[Jackmc]

Shouldn't the Light Bay be 37.5 tons then?

No the light bay is fine, but his maths are off on the Hvy which should be 125 tons since the mass overhead is 50 tons.


-Jackmc

[DarthRads]

No the light bay is fine, but his maths are off on the Hvy which should be 125 tons since the mass overhead is 50 tons.


-Jackmc

Actually, I am out...
35+(35/2=17.5) = 52.5
55+(55/2 = 27:5) = 82.5
75t + (75/2= 37.5) = 112.5t...

Round up to the nearest 5t...

The reason for capacity/2 is that a 100t bay weighs 150t...or 100+(100/5=50)

[Jackmc]

The math doesn't work then because the bay includes an MFB equivalent and that masses 20 tons alone.

-Jackmc

[DarthRads]

The math doesn't work then because the bay includes an MFB equivalent and that masses 20 tons alone.

-Jackmc

Well it did about 15 years ago when it was introduced as a house rule...

[FedComGirl]

So including MFB, 20 tons, and a bare minimum of an 5 ton infantry bay for quarters, at least another 10 tons for dropchutes, arresting gear, refueling equipment and probably somethings I missed. So at minimum each bay should be total vehicle capacity plus 40 tons. If you want nicer quarters 50 tons. 

The Protomech bays still have a problem though. Do they have a larger bay for the Ultra-heavies or do they ride in mech cubicles?


And what about Battle Armor? It doesn't include any quarters or repair equipment either. And to be picky the quarters for Infantry are tiny.
Foot Infantry Bay, 2 tons of quarters/maintenance for 28 troopers. 71.4kg per trooper.
Jump Infantry Bay, 2 tons of quarters/maintenance for 21 troopers 71.4kg per trooper.
Motorized Infantry Bay; 1 ton of quarters/maintenance for 28 troopers. 35.7kg per trooper.

I suppose that's just enough for a cot and a locker each. But my brother had more gear than that when he was deployed. They'd need use of some of the vehicles cargo space to carry a change of clothes. 

Mechanized Infantry Bay; 3 tons of quarters/maintenance for 5 troopers. 600kg per trooper
Battle Armor Bay; 0 tons quarters/maintanence per trooper. I say 0 because Battle Armor weight up to 2 tons which is the listed weight for the Battle Armor Bay. The Compartment can only carry 1 ton which technically means that it can't carry the heavier BAs.

I'm really wondering if TPTB should take a second look at the cargo bays. Even if they did,  will they be able to make any changes without massive erratas?

[Dragon Cat]

Thing I would think about is ships on the sea have an unloaded weight and a loaded one

The bays on a ship are likely 150 tons for the whole unit but ontop of that it can carry upto 100 tons of Mech or fighter.  The facilities weigh 150 tons if there's a mech in it or not so all it does is allow the DropShip to carry more weight than its true cargo capacity

[Jackmc]

Thing I would think about is ships on the sea have an unloaded weight and a loaded one

Nope.  the current devs have activley retconned out the possibility of loaded vs unloaded weights and IIRC it's explicitly stated that the mass of a bay includes the mass of whatever it carries.

-Jackmc

[Dragon Cat]

Nope.  the current devs have activley retconned out the possibility of loaded vs unloaded weights and IIRC it's explicitly stated that the mass of a bay includes the mass of whatever it carries.

-Jackmc

Darn

[evilauthor]

To be fair though, "Cargo" tonnage is "Whatever tonnage is not being used by something else.
So if you're carrying a 20 ton mech in a mech bay, your available cargo tonnage shoots up by 80 tons.