Improved Nightstar

[Trailblazer]

I wasn't necessarily thinking a one-on-one fight, I just meant which 'Mech would I rather have (without considering price).  But part of the question is, which would you rather have against the Clans?  (That's usually the only case where my conscience allows me to take a Thunder Hawk in the first place.)

[Diablo48]

Hm... though I guess fluff could be used to circumvent that a little. Something like: It's a new production line on Loburg to replace the old T-Hawk line, however while adapting the lines StarCorps Engineers kinda screwed up so the lines output is only half of what it was used to be and due to its rareness, the LC ships all output directly to the Arc-royal theater only to fight the Jade Turkeys.
(I guess an actuall BT writer could easily come up with something that's a little more inspired)

btw, but even the Hellstar is like downright vicious against regular Clan assaults or heavies. And besides, well.. some units are just more maxed out than others...

Yeah, but the Hellstar is very beatable and can be outperformed by heavily optimized 3/5 assaults which can add either a TC or another headcapper on top of what it has as shown below.

Code: [Select]

Thunder Hawk IIC

Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-D
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 23,500,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 3,277

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
    2  ER PPCs
    3  Gauss Rifles
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel                   152 points                5.00
    Internal Locations: 1 HD, 6 LA
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             300                       9.50
    Walking MP: 3
    Running MP: 5
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             17(34)                    7.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 1 CT, 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 LL, 1 RL
Gyro:               Standard                                               3.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 296                 18.50
    CASE Locations: LT, RT, RA                                             0.00

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     31           50       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  11       
                                           L/R Torso     21           32       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  10       
                                             L/R Arm     17           34       
                                             L/R Leg     21           37       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gauss Rifle                                  RA        1         6        12.00
2 ER PPCs                                    LA        30        4        12.00
Gauss Rifle                                  RT        1         6        12.00
Gauss Rifle                                  LT        1         6        12.00
@Gauss Rifle (16)                            RA        -         2         2.00
@Gauss Rifle (16)                            RT        -         2         2.00
@Gauss Rifle (16)                            LT        -         2         2.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 0

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:     10    Points: 33
3          7       8       8       0      4     0   Structure:  5
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

[ABADDON]

True that. 4/6 is unlikely to outmanoeuver a 3/5 and at least statistically wise your TH IIC should come out of top when you pair both mechs against each other for a couple of matches. But 75 down the lane is really outright cruel.

[CloaknDagger]

Now you guys give me an idea.

IS can't beat clan long range specialists like the hellstar.

But do they need to?

Code: [Select]

Bright Star

Mass: 80 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Era Specific
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-F
Production Year: 0
Cost: 22,762,140 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,320

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 400 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h (64.8 km/h)
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h (97.2 km/h)
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Laser-Reflective
Armament:
    1  Medium X-Pulse Laser
    1  Medium Pulse Laser
    8  Medium Lasers
    1  ER Small Laser
    1  Small Laser
    9  Machine Guns
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                     122 points                8.00
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             400                      26.50
    Walking MP: 5 (6)
    Running MP: 8 (9)
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             15(30)                    5.00
Gyro:               Standard                                               4.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
    TSM Locations: 3 LA, 3 RA
Armor:              Laser-Reflective             AV - 240                 15.00
    Armor Locations: 5 LA, 5 RA

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     25           39       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  10       
                                           L/R Torso     17           25       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  9         
                                             L/R Arm     13           25       
                                             L/R Leg     17           32       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 Medium Lasers                              RT        12        4         4.00
4 Machine Guns                               RT        0         4         2.00
4 Medium Lasers                              LT        12        4         4.00
2 Machine Guns                               LT        0         2         1.00
Small Laser                                  LT        1         1         0.50
ER Small Laser                               LT        2         1         0.50
Medium Pulse Laser                           CT        4         1         2.00
Medium X-Pulse Laser                         CT        6         1         2.00
Machine Gun                                  HD        0         1         0.50
Machine Gun                                  RL        0         1         0.50
Machine Gun                                  LL        0         1         0.50
@MG (200)                                    RL        -         1         1.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 3

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 23
5          7       5       0       0      4     1   Structure:  4
Special Abilities: TSM, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA




Or if that's bad, this:

Code: [Select]

Bright Star

Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Era Specific
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-F
Production Year: 0
Cost: 14,856,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 3,133

Chassis: Unknown Composite Structure
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 32.4 km/h (43.2 km/h)
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h (64.8 km/h)
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Laser-Reflective
Armament:
    2  Gauss Rifles
    1  Large VSPL
    1  Medium X-Pulse Laser
    1  Medium Pulse Laser
    1  Medium Laser
    2  ER Small Lasers
    2  Small Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Composite Structure          152 points                5.00
Engine:             Fusion Engine                300                      19.00
    Walking MP: 3 (4)
    Running MP: 5 (6)
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             12(24)                    2.00
Gyro:               XL                                                     1.50
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
    TSM Locations: 3 LA, 3 RA
Armor:              Laser-Reflective             AV - 307                 19.50
    Armor Locations: 5 LA, 5 RA

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     31           49       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  13       
                                           L/R Torso     21           31       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  11       
                                             L/R Arm     17           34       
                                             L/R Leg     21           42       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gauss Rifle                                  RT        1         7        15.00
Medium X-Pulse Laser                         RT        6         1         2.00
Medium Pulse Laser                           RT        4         1         2.00
Gauss Rifle                                  LT        1         7        15.00
Large VSPL                                   LT        10        4         9.00
Small Laser                                  HD        1         1         0.50
2 ER Small Lasers                            RL        4         2         1.00
Small Laser                                  LL        1         1         0.50
Medium Laser                                 LL        3         1         1.00
@Gauss Rifle (24)                            RT        -         3         3.00
@Gauss Rifle (8)                             LT        -         1         1.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 0

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      8    Points: 31
3          6       6       3       0      4     0   Structure:  4
Special Abilities: TSM, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA




[Diablo48]

True that. 4/6 is unlikely to outmanoeuver a 3/5 and at least statistically wise your TH IIC should come out of top when you pair both mechs against each other for a couple of matches. But 75 down the lane is really outright cruel.

Yeah, that is one design I have not and probably never will actually field.  Even within the context of Clan tech that is just cruel, and against the IS it is even worse.

Now you guys give me an idea.

IS can't beat clan long range specialists like the hellstar.

But do they need to?...

While those could beat the Hellstar, that is really just a function of the damage reduction from the armor screwing over the energy boat.  Without that protection they would die before they could do too much damage, and they would not have a chance against the Thunder Hawk IIC I posted earlier.

What the IS really needs to do against the Hellstar or Thunder Hawk IIC is not get drawn into its game because they cannot hope to overpower it in a slugging match.  The solution is to swarm it with fast, expendable machines (preferably vehicles) and overwhelm it because it will have trouble killing more than one per turn.  It is also extremely vulnerable to infantry, but it has the speed to leave them in the dust more often than not which limits their utility.  Remember, IS forces need to draw inspiration from the Soviet Red Army when fighting against the Clans because they cannot hope to match them one-on-one.

[CloaknDagger]

What the IS really needs to do against the Hellstar or Thunder Hawk IIC is not get drawn into its game because they cannot hope to overpower it in a slugging match.  The solution is to swarm it with fast, expendable machines (preferably vehicles) and overwhelm it because it will have trouble killing more than one per turn.  It is also extremely vulnerable to infantry, but it has the speed to leave them in the dust more often than not which limits their utility.  Remember, IS forces need to draw inspiration from the Soviet Red Army when fighting against the Clans because they cannot hope to match them one-on-one.

Soviet, eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0FbGuImTCE

[Sabelkatten]

Since Stealth Armor is a good equalizer...

Code: [Select]

Nightstar NSR-11X

Mass: 95 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 26 791 375 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2 299

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 380 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43,2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64,8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Stealth Armor
Armament:
    2  Gauss Rifles
    1  ER PPC
    1  Guardian ECM Suite
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                     145 points                9,50
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             380                      20,50
    Walking MP: 4
    Running MP: 6
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             14(28)                    4,00
Gyro:               XL                                                     2,00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3,00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA    R: SH+UA
Armor:              Stealth Armor                AV - 216                 13,50
    Armor Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT, 2 LA, 2 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     30           33       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  10       
                                           L/R Torso     20           27       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  5         
                                             L/R Arm     16           23       
                                             L/R Leg     20           27       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ER PPC                                       RT        15        3         7,00
Guardian ECM Suite                           LT        0         2         1,50
Gauss Rifle                                  RA        1         7        15,00
Gauss Rifle                                  LA        1         7        15,00
@Gauss Rifle (8)                             RT        -         1         1,00
@Gauss Rifle (8)                             LT        -         1         1,00
@Gauss Rifle (8)                             RA        -         1         1,00
@Gauss Rifle (8)                             LA        -         1         1,00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 8

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      7    Points: 23
4          4       4       4       0      4     0   Structure:  4
Special Abilities: ECM, STL, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
Endo-composite structure would be a great addition (2 tons more armor), but I prefer tourney-legal tech.

[ABADDON]

Soviet, eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0FbGuImTCE

No, that's not it. Just the quantity over quality approach that they were (in)famous for during WW2.

[Diablo48]

Since Stealth Armor is a good equalizer...

Code: [Select]

Nightstar NSR-11X

Mass: 95 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 26 791 375 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2 299

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 380 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43,2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64,8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Stealth Armor
Armament:
    2  Gauss Rifles
    1  ER PPC
    1  Guardian ECM Suite
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                     145 points                9,50
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             380                      20,50
    Walking MP: 4
    Running MP: 6
    Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             14(28)                    4,00
Gyro:               XL                                                     2,00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3,00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA    R: SH+UA
Armor:              Stealth Armor                AV - 216                 13,50
    Armor Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT, 2 LA, 2 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     30           33       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  10       
                                           L/R Torso     20           27       
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  5         
                                             L/R Arm     16           23       
                                             L/R Leg     20           27       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ER PPC                                       RT        15        3         7,00
Guardian ECM Suite                           LT        0         2         1,50
Gauss Rifle                                  RA        1         7        15,00
Gauss Rifle                                  LA        1         7        15,00
@Gauss Rifle (8)                             RT        -         1         1,00
@Gauss Rifle (8)                             LT        -         1         1,00
@Gauss Rifle (8)                             RA        -         1         1,00
@Gauss Rifle (8)                             LA        -         1         1,00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 8

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      7    Points: 23
4          4       4       4       0      4     0   Structure:  4
Special Abilities: ECM, STL, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
Endo-composite structure would be a great addition (2 tons more armor), but I prefer tourney-legal tech.

The problem here is that you loose so much armor that it does not really give you any benefit in a slugging match and leaves you totally sunk if the enemy manages to close.  With Endo-Composite and a Small Cockpit for another three tons of armor it would be viable, but as you said that would require experimental technology (although Endo-Composite is one of those things I think should really be tournament legal because it does nothing on the tabletop).

No, that's not it. Just the quantity over quality approach that they were (in)famous for during WW2.

Exactly.  The Soviets did not really bother counting their troops in numbers smaller than millions and suffered enough casualties to visibly shift the male/female balance in their overall population for those generations.  When playing against the Clans with an IS force, you need to have the same tolerance for heavy losses because you cannot hope to take then one-on-one.

[Sabelkatten]

The problem here is that you loose so much armor that it does not really give you any benefit in a slugging match and leaves you totally sunk if the enemy manages to close.  With Endo-Composite and a Small Cockpit for another three tons of armor it would be viable, but as you said that would require experimental technology (although Endo-Composite is one of those things I think should really be tournament legal because it does nothing on the tabletop).

IMHO a small cockpit isn't worth it on anything above a fast medium. But totally agreed on the Endo-Comp!

However I wasn't actually aiming for taking on an equal-weight clan mech in a duel, more like making a mech that's so troublesome for clan opponents that they'll be enticed to move closer - which is where the rest of your forces can reach them effectively! >:D Even against good clan pilots that +2 for long range is real painful.

Essentially a stealth Pillager faster than the average assault, with 33% more firepower. In tactical role, that is.

[ABADDON]

Whenever I see a design with stealth armor, I can't help but think about just how much better the Chameleon LPS is.

[Diablo48]

IMHO a small cockpit isn't worth it on anything above a fast medium. But totally agreed on the Endo-Comp!

The Small Cockpit is just more limited, but it can let you cram that last little bit into even an assault to make itself worthwhile.  My Thunder Hawk from earlier is a perfect example because without the Small Cockpit it would have to give up a ton of ammo which would seriously hinder it on the field.  This design would also make good use of it because the Stealth Armor will reduce the number of PSRs you have to roll in long range combat and the extra armor will keep it from folding if the enemy makes it into short range while its allies cover it.

However I wasn't actually aiming for taking on an equal-weight clan mech in a duel, more like making a mech that's so troublesome for clan opponents that they'll be enticed to move closer - which is where the rest of your forces can reach them effectively! >:D Even against good clan pilots that +2 for long range is real painful.

Essentially a stealth Pillager faster than the average assault, with 33% more firepower. In tactical role, that is.

Fair enough, however there are still good odds it will be targeted and torn apart due to its firepower and vulnerability.  Your typical 2/3 veteran Clan pilot will probably be looking at 9's (2 base + 4 range + 2 stealth + 1 terrain/movement) which is really not enough to protect it with the thin armor and XLE, especially if there is a LPL, TC, and/or elite pilot in play.  The only way it will be ignored is if it is standing next to something like that Thunder Hawk I posted or if there are brawlers closing, and if that happens then it is not really helping you any.

[Sabelkatten]

To be honest I ignore the official skill lists since they don't make any sense to me. I mean, I have no problem with people improving pilot skills across the board to speed up games, but the idea that a typical clan pilot - after massive losses and with rushed training to replace them - gets better isn't believable IMHO. The same with the idea that current IS pilots with a couple of years of academy training goes into the field more skilled than 3rd SW pilots that were often trained to pilot a mech since they were old enough to comprehend the systems!

So I stick with the old-style skill levels of 6/5-3/2 for IS pilots, 5/4-3/2 for clan pilots, which of course will color my view of how effective equipment is.

But for the small cockpit, it's very simple. One single fall will eat up the armor boost you got from the saved ton. With 200+ points of armor you're bound to get a lot of damage-induced PSRs, and the +1 to PSRs will probably end up causing more than one extra fall!