Explain To Me How The Merc Trade Works In BT

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Tai Dai, i'd be more accepting of your "nobles can take anything they want from rivals through main force, with no fear of repercussion by their peers and liege lords" stance if you can point me to a place in the setting where they have done just that. because everything i've found so far points to nobles in every successor state scheming because they can't just drop in with troops and take what they want, and being deathly afraid of the social and political backlash from their peers and liege lords should their various small and hidden uses of force will be found out.. a stance that would not happen if they knew the higher lords would just look the other way.

Oh I do agree they need a modicum of political cover to just grab one another's stuff.

But a bare modicum of cover is pretty easy to accomplish.  The game focuses much higher than the petty noble level, so their examples are underrepresented.  EDIT: But as mentioned upthread, there's Duke Ricol's shenanigans.  There's also the apocryphal plot of MW1, Ryan Steiner's shenanigans over multiple novels, and I'm sure there are some others as well.  Even Ideal War discusses low level warfare falling beneath the notice or care of its relevant House Lord (although that one isn't petty nobility related).

Instead I'll give you an example at the Great House level:  The War of Davion Succession that took place during the Star League.  Mary Davion had by contemporary accounts, abdicated her claim to the New Avalon throne before marrying into House Kurita.  That didn't stop House Kurita from claiming some legal "fiction" as basis for their outright invasion of the Federated Suns to support her Luthien-born son's claim to said throne.  Only when the War drug on and got out of hand did the Liege (House Cameron) step in and put an end to it in OPERATION SMOTHER. Had Kurita won the war quickly, there would have been a fait accompli and it would have been over with.  Physically possessing the throne on New Avalon surely would have outweighed the legal arguments of either side regarding her son's claim to it.

Where that kind of example is being set, I'm sure it's being followed at lower echelons.

[glitterboy2098]

Ricol's main plots were a Kurita attacking Steiner worlds (not his own supposed allies), while his involvement in the Rasalhague resistance movement was purely political scheming (as was that resistance movement), and as part of the Black Dragons he actually advised against the use of force for political changes and gain, in favor of using political influence for gradual change.
i've already pointed out that the plot of MW1 is about political scheming (using the description from the game itself)
Ryan Steiner was involved in a secessionist movement in Skye (which HAS to rely on main force in the primary stages of the succession if it is to work), and yet most of what he was involved in was still a shadow war fought with spies, assassins, and false flags.. not open warfare.
Ideal War is a complicated issue because it was the WOB and the local nobility conducting "peacekeeping" operations on their own worlds (much like Wilmarth was doing on Caledonia, and any noble is required to do), with a conspiracy involved to prevent the cause of the uprisings and the means being used to fight them from becoming known off world.

there are frankly terrible examples, because none of them actually involve any of the stuff you are claiming.

as for the great house level.. well that is to be expected. ultimately the War of Davion succession was a nation vs nation conflict, like many others. the succession claim was just an excuse for the invasion. entire nations fighting other nations is to be expected. and as real world politics have shown, it is very hard for those outside the conflict to force the aggressor to give up anything they have stolen through invasion. short of everyone else declaring war and doing their own invasions of the area.
but being grudgingly open to inter-nation warfare is very different from a state tolerating what would basically be a constant low grade civil war between its own constituents. which is basically what the nobles you describe would be involved in. there would be no scheming or hidden plots involved, because they could just hire some soldiers and go and take anything they wanted. it would be highly unlikely that any successor states could actually exist with such a structure.. they'd shatter themselves apart through sheer anarchy. it is notable that this is exactly what happened to the Republic of the Sphere post Grey Monday, when the ability to monitor and punish the actions of their political constituents was lost. the scheming ended, the knives came out, and the state died as everyone with ambition suddenly discovered that a couple lances mechs and some conscripts could take whatever power , wealth, and authority they wanted with no more repercussions than having to defend it from the next guy with the same idea.

the only way it could maybe work is if there was some sort of highly stylized dueling culture involved, with honor codes and proxy battles... but as we've seen with the clans, it doesn't really work with such a system either. it just keeps the damage low enough that everyone involved can claim it works, while its adherents find every loophole they can to exploit it.

and if there was a clan style dueling culture governing inner sphere low level politics, the clan arrival would not have been such a WTF moment for the inner sphere.

[guardiandashi]

Where I was saying I feel there'd be collectively more mechs and mechwarriors outside service to Great Houses than those within, I wasn't saying that once an invader dispatches the defending House garrison there'd then be an even larger number of mechs in private armies onworld after that.

I was simply saying I feel there's more mechs and mechwarriors in all the private armies added together than in the great house armies.

Some 3025 numbers as example:
House Kurita has just over 400 worlds, and control of 80 mech regiments in its House Army (13 mercenary, and 67 DCMS mech regiments).  That leaves 80 worlds with a House Army mech garrison, and over 300 without one.
House Davion has almost 500 worlds, and control of 110 mech regiments in its House Army (30 mercenary, and 72 AFFS mech regiments).  3025 deployment puts many multiregiment merc outfits all on one world, but even if they were spread out more than canonically accurate to say no more than 1 mech regiment per world, that still means almost 300 worlds again are undefended by House Mech forces.

The two military powerhouses of 3025 leave very roughly 2 thirds of their worlds undefended by House Mech forces.   Granted, there's probably some House conventional forces on many, perhaps even most of those worlds.  The mech-centric nature of the game leaves that detail unspecified.  But since it IS a mech centric universe, to me it stands to reason that the petty nobility on those 2/3rds of the worlds in those empires want some mechs precisely because their respective House Lords haven't bothered to post any there.  Protection from mech-armed Pirates is a primary reason to want/need mechs in your own private army.  Keeping up with House Jones is a secondary motivation: once they have Mechs... you'll need some too to remain at political parity with them once they possess mechs and mechwarriors.

For mercs, most of the inner sphere is fertile ground for low-level warfare that's literally beneath the notice or care of the 5 Great Houses.  So long as the players on any given world don't let their wars make the respective House Lord begin to care, there's really nothing sociologically stopping them from warring upon each other, which means there may not be work for mercs on every single planet, but there's enough of these planets that there's always work somewhere.

I am going to dispute part of your analysis, not the overall numbers that is or sounds right but your assumption that all units are deployed either all or nothing IE a full mech regiment on planet, or it has no "national" unit at all.
I remember quite a number of source books indicating that that units like the 12th davion guards, (a 1 regiment unit) has the regiment garrisoning 4 planets, 1 battalion on each, with a roving "response" battalion that rotates periodically through all 4 planets, but often is on the "central" planet where it can move to any of the others quickly.

another point is that each house, allocates those forces depending on perceived, value, and threat for the worlds in question.

for example New Avalon has typically 4+ regiments at all times, because it has: Axhernar battlemechs (makes locust, wasp, phoenix hawk, enforcer, dervish, a bunch of subassemblies.) Corean Enterprises (makes centurion, and Valkyrie plus parts) Lyncomb-Davion Intratech (makes stuka, lightning, and hellcat aerospace fighters, plus subassemblies)
in addition NAIS, NAMT its also the house capital, etc, but its a long way from the borders, so ...

the point is that most of the "high risk" border worlds will typically have large garrisons, with lower "risk" and less "important" planets having corresponding smaller garrisons, sometimes as little as a lance to company sized force.
now granted the house lord would LOVE!! to have a big enough army to have a full regiment garrison on every world (granted they likely still wouldn't deploy them that way, but would have say a battalion where a lance/company garrison is now, with the remainder concentrated, on the "critical" planets, and a big force to use to go on the offence.

[Kit deSummersville]

I remember quite a number of source books indicating that that units like the 12th davion guards, (a 1 regiment unit) has the regiment garrisoning 4 planets, 1 battalion on each, with a roving "response" battalion that rotates periodically through all 4 planets, but often is on the "central" planet where it can move to any of the others quickly.

Regiments have 3 battalions, not 5.

[SCC]

Mercs aren't exactly known for following the standard IS force structure and the Dragoons regiments have had force strengths as high as 145% which is defiantly into having 5 battalions territory.

[Colt Ward]

Tai Dai, i'd be more accepting of your "nobles can take anything they want from rivals through main force, with no fear of repercussion by their peers and liege lords" stance if you can point me to a place in the setting where they have done just that. because everything i've found so far points to nobles in every successor state scheming because they can't just drop in with troops and take what they want, and being deathly afraid of the social and political backlash from their peers and liege lords should their various small and hidden uses of force will be found out.. a stance that would not happen if they knew the higher lords would just look the other way.

The whole of Initiation to War was a book about just this sort of situation- even that one group that did not keep up their own mech forces hired mercs!

[Tai Dai Cultist]

...there are frankly terrible examples, because none of them actually involve any of the stuff you are claiming.

Granted they're not examples of petty nobles on the same planet warring upon each other, but they are examples of wars that came about due to lesser powers than a Great House. 

as for the great house level.. well that is to be expected. ultimately the War of Davion succession was a nation vs nation conflict, like many others. the succession claim was just an excuse for the invasion. entire nations fighting other nations is to be expected. and as real world politics have shown, it is very hard for those outside the conflict to force the aggressor to give up anything they have stolen through invasion. short of everyone else declaring war and doing their own invasions of the area.
but being grudgingly open to inter-nation warfare is very different from a state tolerating what would basically be a constant low grade civil war between its own constituents. which is basically what the nobles you describe would be involved in. there would be no scheming or hidden plots involved, because they could just hire some soldiers and go and take anything they wanted. it would be highly unlikely that any successor states could actually exist with such a structure.. they'd shatter themselves apart through sheer anarchy. it is notable that this is exactly what happened to the Republic of the Sphere post Grey Monday, when the ability to monitor and punish the actions of their political constituents was lost. the scheming ended, the knives came out, and the state died as everyone with ambition suddenly discovered that a couple lances mechs and some conscripts could take whatever power , wealth, and authority they wanted with no more repercussions than having to defend it from the next guy with the same idea.

I have issue with alot of what you just said:

1: Your use of the word nation.  Davion vs Kurita is a clash of empires, not nations.  There's a huge difference between what the words mean.  Neither the Draconis Combine nor the Federated Suns is a nation.  Writers and TPTB that occasionally say otherwise literally don't know what they're talking about ;)  Examples of groups that would arguably qualify as interstellar nations include the the Azami, Rasalhague, Skye, The Clans, many Periphery powers, and perhaps a few others.

2: The War of Davion Succession was NOT like any other Davion vs Kurita war in one special way, and that one special way is exactly why I chose it as an example.  Both Houses recognized a higher authority and were both vassals of that authority (the Star League Court).  You're free to disagree, but I still say that particular war is the same thing as two Counts having an armed "disagreement" over a succession issue... the difference is only a matter of scale.  Rather than having fiefs that span stars, on the same world we could have fiefs that span cities and towns.

3: I strongly dispute the notion that just because two petty nobles have the same liege lord they're automatically on the same side.  As a matter of fact, it's probable that in many planets' cases there are ancient fiefs with just as ancient grudges born primarily out of having to look at each other all the time.  You can be enemies just because you're neighbors even more easily than you can be considered allies just because you're neighbors. 

4: It'd be anarchy if nobles could just have free reign to war upon one another?  Yep.  That was the critique of the Ares Conventions back when they were ratified.  Again consider that even during the unparalleled peace of the Star League, it was not just socially acceptable to use armed force in lieu of some other option like taking someone to court, it was socially acceptable to do so as an option of first recourse. 
Sure, sure you can't have every fief at war with every other fief at all times, obviously that'd be interstellar anarchy.  That's why you have to do both of two things: 1, maintain at least some veneer of legitimacy to what you're doing, no matter how flimsy (Mary Davion's abdication was forced and illegal, therefore her son deserves the throne!), and 2 keep the fracas from putting your liege in a position to have to tacitly condone or otherwise address the violence.  (e.g. The First Lord unleashing the SLDF to stop the War of Davion Succession that didn't resolve itself cleanly).

Never forget the BTU is at its heart a dystopian setting.  It presumes a very dim view of human nature.  That's why I see more more Machiavellis and Baelishes/Littlefingers around than Starks or Atreideses.

the only way it could maybe work is if there was some sort of highly stylized dueling culture involved, with honor codes and proxy battles... but as we've seen with the clans, it doesn't really work with such a system either. it just keeps the damage low enough that everyone involved can claim it works, while its adherents find every loophole they can to exploit it.

and if there was a clan style dueling culture governing inner sphere low level politics, the clan arrival would not have been such a WTF moment for the inner sphere.

Actually, there IS a highly stylized dueling culture involved in the IS in the form of the "chivalric warfare" that evolved over the course of the Succession Wars.  Battles take place away from populated areas, JumpShips and HPGs are off limits, you acknowledge defeat and withdraw without further damage to the world if you're outmaneuvered in the field, etc.  Of course the unwritten code wasn't always followed, but it was followed often enough to set the norm.  The Clans weren't alien because they had their quirky rules different than the IS's about honorable warfare.. they were alien because they were surprise invaders from beyond the unknown and had wunderwaffen like Omnimechs and BattleArmor.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

I am going to dispute part of your analysis, not the overall numbers that is or sounds right but your assumption that all units are deployed either all or nothing IE a full mech regiment on planet, or it has no "national" unit at all.
I remember quite a number of source books indicating that that units like the 12th davion guards, (a 1 regiment unit) has the regiment garrisoning 4 planets, 1 battalion on each, with a roving "response" battalion that rotates periodically through all 4 planets, but often is on the "central" planet where it can move to any of the others quickly.

That's a fair response.  But OTOH I think there are more sources that suggest that spreading regiments out to cover multiple worlds isn't actually done (normally).

If you look at the NAIS Atlases of the 4th SW, the defending units in Kurita and Liao space are almost always entire regiments all onworld together.  That couldn't have been the case if they were spread out protecting multiple worlds as you describe.

And it can't be a Kurita/Liao vs Davion doctrine thing, because the same phenomenon carries thru virtually all sourcebooks that discuss battle outcomes.  War of 3039 and Clan Invasion books also discuss entire regiments being onworld when attacked, so it's also Davion and the Davion-influenced AFFC that have entire regiments together when attacked.

Going back to what I was saying about there surely being a lot of mechwarriors and mechs outside of Great House service:
If you were to assume all of the following:
There are about 300 worlds in an empire w/o a Great House mech garrison
There are on average 12 mechs on each of those worlds in private hands

That'd mean that there's over 33 regiments worth of battlemechs in that one Great House in the hands of petty vassals and such.  I'd say that still makes for a whole lot of "normal" company sized merc outfits when you multiply similar rates across each of the 5 Great Houses.

[Kidd]

Going back to what I was saying about there surely being a lot of mechwarriors and mechs outside of Great House service:
If you were to assume all of the following:
There are about 300 worlds in an empire w/o a Great House mech garrison
There are on average 12 mechs on each of those worlds in private hands

That'd mean that there's over 33 regiments worth of battlemechs in that one Great House in the hands of petty vassals and such.  I'd say that still makes for a whole lot of "normal" company sized merc outfits when you multiply similar rates across each of the 5 Great Houses.

Those numbers are in contradiction with this:

I was simply saying I feel there's more mechs and mechwarriors in all the private armies added together than in the great house armies.

I'd really like to know how you characterise one group of planets as a nation, and another group of planets as an empire.

And to recap: You're saying that nobles are constantly fighting wars (hot or cold) with each other on their planets, with the tacit approval of the government, for which purpose they keep private Mech armies to themselves, making up the majority of Mechs in the Inner Sphere, which is why the House armies appear under-manned, and when an invasion occurs some of these Mechs will refuse to participate in the planetary defence, and this is again tacitly allowed by the planetary ruler, and an exchange of Great House control goes peacefully without the intervention of these Mechs?

I find that a little hard to believe. This theory discards much of what we know about the Battletech universe mainly to address a non-issue (army sizes). There isn't any canon evidence for this sub-planetary warfare - there isn't a single instance where say Prince Davion lands on a Kurita planet and is told "Lords A, B and C are sitting this one out, so we'll only have to deal with Lord D and the planetary militia" in conventional Successor State warfare. There might be a couple of instances in the Civil War or Dark Age, but I'd say those are probably exceptions rather than the rule.

[Scotty]

I believe we're getting very far afield of the salient point that was "Mercs don't fight who they're not contracted to", which was fairly quickly clarified to on the point of "minor nobles do a lot of hiring small Merc units".

"Majority" might be pushing it, but the biggest (the 1%, if you will) Mercenary units in 3025-3030 comprise something on the order of 15+ Regiments (EDIT: holy shit I was way off).  Hell, between the Wolf's Dragoons (5), Kell Hounds (2), Northwind Highlanders (4), Gray Death Legion (1), Waco's Rangers (1), Eridani Light Horse (3), Hansen's Roughriders (1), Fighting Urukhai (3), Blue Star Irregulars (3), Brion's Legion (1), 21st Centauri Lancers (1), Dioscuri (2), Dismal Disinherited (3), 15th Dracon (1), Filthy Lucre (1), Grave Walkers (2), Grim Determination (1), Illician Lancers (4), Langendorf Lancers (1), Lexington Combat Group (3), Little Richard's Panzer Brigade (1), Lone Wolves (1), 17th Recon (1), Screaming Eagles (2), Simson's Cutthroats (1), Smithson's Chinese Bandits (2), 12th Star Guards (4), 12th Vegan Rangers (4), Wylie's Coyotes (1), and MacCarron's Armored Cavalry (5, still technically Mercs in that period), that's over 65 full Regiments of 'Mechs ignoring all other kinds of units like infantry and armor before we even start getting into Battalion sized commands, which are still significantly less common than Company or Lance sized units. It's not outside the realm of reason to suggest that there are another 175+ Regiments spread across all Mercenary units.

Sources: all of these units are listed in Combat Manual: Mercenaries. 

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Those numbers are in contradiction with this:

That's because for my headcanon I presume a lot more than just 12 mechs per planet on average.  But rather than argue my head canon, I'm trying to be more conservative.  (those numbers also are presuming that any place where there's a House mech garrison, noone has a private army)

I'd really like to know how you characterise one group of planets as a nation, and another group of planets as an empire.

na·tion
ˈnāSH(ə)n/Submit
noun
noun: nation; plural noun: nations
a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.

em·pire
ˈemˌpī(ə)r/Submit
noun
noun: empire; plural noun: empires
1.
an extensive group of states or countries under a single supreme authority, formerly especially an emperor or empress.

Since bulk of the Inner Sphere is a hodge podge of planets of disparate cultures (despite the efforts/propaganda of Houses Kurita and Liao to the contrary) that means empire is a more fitting description than nation.

In the places I mentioned as being plausible examples of interstellar nations, they are more-or-less contiguous areas of shared cultural values/identity/language.  Nation fits them better than empire.

And to recap: You're saying that nobles are constantly fighting wars (hot or cold) with each other on their planets, with the tacit approval of the government, for which purpose they keep private Mech armies to themselves, making up the majority of Mechs in the Inner Sphere, which is why the House armies appear under-manned, and when an invasion occurs some of these Mechs will refuse to participate in the planetary defence, and this is again tacitly allowed by the planetary ruler, and an exchange of Great House control goes peacefully without the intervention of these Mechs?

Constantly fighting wars?  Yes, but in the sense that across the Inner Sphere, there are always petty wars being fought on at least several planets any given time.  Not in that every petty noble is constantly engaged in warfare.

These constant wars are why they have private armies?  You betcha.

And the House Armies appear undermanned because of the private armies?  Nope, never argued that.  Apologies if it appeared that's where I was going.

Some private armies will refuse to participate in planetary defense?  Yes and no.  They "participate" by defending their own fiefs and refusing to step foot outside them.  If House Kurita comes for the world and never sends forces into Baron von Obstinate's fief, then he just might watch the invasion over the holovids and congratulate the winner afterwards.  If the defenders won, he cites how he protected whatever "vital strategic" assets in his fief from the invaders.  If the invaders win, he offers fealty to the new regime in exchange for keeping his title/position.  Will EVERY petty nobleman behave this way?  No.  But will some?  Sure.  Will most?  In my dystopian view of the BTU, I say again yes.  The Lawful Good Houses that refuse to bend the knee to the invaders get weeded out when invaders win and divest them of their holdings.  The surviving Houses are the ones that are morally flexible.  Aristocratic Darwinism.

...There isn't any canon evidence for this sub-planetary warfare -

Just a handful from one sourcebook (HB:HD)
Parma:  Noble on Noble warfare exactly as I'm describing
Cogdell: Peasant rabble vs Noble private army warfare
Kittery: Capellan peasant insurrection being left to the planetary authorities to handle

there isn't a single instance where say Prince Davion lands on a Kurita planet and is told "Lords A, B and C are sitting this one out, so we'll only have to deal with Lord D and the planetary militia" in conventional Successor State warfare. There might be a couple of instances in the Civil War or Dark Age, but I'd say those are probably exceptions rather than the rule.

Lords A, B, and C sitting it out is fundamentally the same thing as just sitting on whatever strategic assets are physically located in their fiefs.  If conquest of the world doesn't require taking those assets, then there's no reason to bring A, B, and C into the fight.

The Battle of Luthien (3052) scenario book does describe militia forces above and beyond the House (and mercenary) forces involved in the major campaign facing off with peripheral Clan forces going after secondary or tertiary objectives.  Same fundamental idea, and for all we know plenty of planets have a militia that is formed by private armies banding together for mutual defense rather than being a permanent, fulltime formation.

[cpip]

That's because for my headcanon I presume a lot more than just 12 mechs per planet on average.  But rather than argue my head canon, I'm trying to be more conservative.  (those numbers also are presuming that any place where there's a House mech garrison, noone has a private army)

Which, of course, isn't the case, since on multiple occasions in scenarios we've seen corporate BattleMech security forces guarding important factories (Irian, Defiance, etc.) -- so it's actually MORE likely that a planet valuable enough to have a BattleMech regiment from the House army may have private BattleMechs on world as well.

Just a handful from one sourcebook (HB:HD)
Parma:  Noble on Noble warfare exactly as I'm describing
Cogdell: Peasant rabble vs Noble private army warfare
Kittery: Capellan peasant insurrection being left to the planetary authorities to handle

As was mentioned above, Operation: Flashpoint's entire premise is exactly two petty nobles with BattleMech units slugging it out on a single world. That local 'Mech force, now unified, reappears in the Jihad sourcebooks as the Kaumberg Planetary Guard during the scenarios set around Democracy Now's efforts in the region.

Several mercenary units (the Martian Cuirassiers spring to mind immediately from Mercenaries Supplemental) have their start as a private corporate security force that the corporation started hiring out; Grandin's Crusaders from Total Chaos is exactly a small noble military unit of "Mechwarrior-Knights" that decided to go mercenary to help support the Grandin family.

There's plenty of room for small mercenary units drifting around. I actually think there's too many regimental-size units, but lance or company-sized units seem entirely plausible to me.

[Kovax]

If a noble refuses to assist his overlord in defending the world, and his fief has been granted under the stipulation that he provides certain forces for the defense, then the attackers BETTER win, or he's going to be in trouble for failing to provide the required forces.  "I was busy protecting this other important asset" doesn't cut it if/when his overlord specifically ordered him to reinforce another group.  Not to say that it doesn't happen, but it's definitely not the norm that we see in the setting.

A noble may only send the required forces, and withhold the other half (or whatever he's got above and beyond the requirement), so there's likely to be a modest amount of additional force on planet beyond the officially stated defense, but that extra can't always be counted on.  Depending on the planet and noble, those extra forces may be a mere token infantry platoon to discourage thieves and saboteurs, or a real military force in its own right, with Battlemechs.

Then there are private and dedicated local defense units: corporate security, palace guards, and such, which as a general rule will never leave their posts to participate in events outside their narrow areas of responsibility.  They're not counted in the planetary garrison, and will only be engaged by an attacker if the specific focus of their responsibility is threatened. That means, an attack on RunOfTheMill Industries will need to include their corporate security lance in an assessment of the planetary defenses, but an attack on the local starport would not need to include them.

Then there are the "security" forces of the planetary government or leading nobles, mostly intended to put down local uprisings rather than guard against invasion.  That will consist primarily of infantry and a few armored vehicles.  Again, it's not considered part of the planetary garrison, but any determined assault on the planet that's more than a raid may need to deal with them at some point, particularly if the defender is willing to fight and risk collateral damage to hold the cities.

Add mercenaries to that list, a LOT of mercenaries, in House, local noble, and corporate employ.

All of this adds up to a LOT of units that are not listed as parts of the House armies, and a lot of opportunities for mercenaries at multiple levels, with only the big players at the top level being detailed in the novels and source books.

[Garrand]

I have to agree. A noble's land tenure is based on his ability to contribute troops or equipment at the request of his overlord. What you are describing Tai Dai Cultist is a type of tenure called an allod, in that the land is held WITHOUT a reciprocal promise of military support when requested. In the European Middle Ages allods were relatively rare (with some major exceptions, such as the "Tribal" states of the Holy Roman Empire for a time). I can't see anything in the Battletech setting that suggests the status of land tenure as being allodial in nature -- what would be the point in investing nobles with titles and land then? The setting has always been a neo-FEUDAL one, and a big aspect of European-style feudalism was land tenure in exchange for military service. Are there petty wars, backstabbiing and maneuvering? Sure, just as there was in Europe for much of the Middle Ages. Not denying that sort of thing happens or could happen. But if your planet is invaded and the planetary overlord invokes your tenure agreement and you DO NOT show up for muster, then yes you better hope the invaders give you a better deal. If they don't then you will likely find your fief confiscate & military action taken against you to forcibly remove you.

When we are talking about feudal tenure, it helps to know that as a lord on your lands, you do not necessarily OWN those lands. Ultimately the land is owned by whomever is at the very top of your government (King, Emperor, etc), you are just a tenant on that land, and you pay your rent through military service. So the only reason you get that land is with the expectation of military service; doing otherwise could be seen as like a contract violation. So I also don't buy the idea that a local noble is going to "sit this out" in an invasion, unless he is prepared to take a huge risk in doing so...

Damon.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

When we are talking about feudal tenure, it helps to know that as a lord on your lands, you do not necessarily OWN those lands.

With regards to the BTU at least, nobles DO own their lands.  As far back as the 1st ed RPG, nobles are sovereigns of their own fiefs.  Yes they have lords, but they're in practical terms kings of their own petty kingdom. 

Kovax:  Let me ask you a question.  Do you presume that when a planet is raided/invaded, *every* military fighting force resists the attackers?  Not necessarily talking about private forces here.. I'm asking does every armed force around the globe abandon their garrisons to go resist the invaders' landing zone?  If so, how do defenders avoid being pulled out of place by a simple feint that leaves the rest of the planet undefended?

My large-scale view is that when you invade or perform an objective raid, you're not facing every single military defender on the entire planet.*  You're facing what's defending that particular campaign objective.  Particular targets of military value across the entire planet all have their own defenses, and they usually don't abandon those posts just in case invaders execute another combat drop in *that* vicinity.  Canonical example going back to the 3052 Battle of Luthien:  There were about a dozen militia regiments defending the rest of Luthien while the spotlight-receiving House and Merc regiments defended the Imperial City and Kadoguchi Valley.  That's the paradigm in which nobles' private armies can just stay home without getting their owner in hot water:  they're not disobeying an order to come join the battle elsewhere... the order is normally never given.

*: the natural followon is that conquerors don't have to face and defeat every single armed soldier on the planet because one the decisive battle that made the defending house garrison boost for orbit leaves the remaining indigenous forces outmatched by the victorious invading house force... numbers are irrespective when the invaders control loci of power and there's little to no appetite among the locals for a partisan war.  Even if militia outnumber the invaders 10 to 1, without a house force to lead and motivate them they're generally going to just submit to the new order.  It's very well established that planets aren't fought over to the last man; once the "ceremonial" battle has been fought and lost, the defenders cede the planet until such time they can come back to retake it  (again it's basically the same idea as the Clans' Trials of Possession, just less "formal").  Locals generally just salute a new flag/administrator/lord and go about their business as it ever was.  personally, I see no reason the petty nobility have to be excluded.

[SaltyDog325]

But if your planet is invaded and the planetary overlord invokes your tenure agreement and you DO NOT show up for muster, then yes you better hope the invaders give you a better deal. If they don't then you will likely find your fief confiscate & military action taken against you to forcibly remove you.

Damon.

There's ways of getting out of military tenure like paying a scutage or it could be outside the terms of the military tenure (like the 40 days a year, just an example). The lord can't just demand you send everything if it's not within the terms of the military tenure. That being said, I'm sure Tai Dai understands that nobles have obligations and if that obligation is show up for muster with troops or to send troops then they will (if they can't get out of it). Just don't expect every noble to send everything he has, more along the line of what his obligation to his lord says he has to.

[Garrand]

There's ways of getting out of military tenure like paying a scutage or it could be outside the terms of the military tenure (like the 40 days a year, just an example). The lord can't just demand you send everything if it's not within the terms of the military tenure. That being said, I'm sure Tai Dai understands that nobles have obligations and if that obligation is show up for muster with troops or to send troops then they will (if they can't get out of it). Just don't expect every noble to send everything he has, more along the line of what his obligation to his lord says he has to.

Yes this is correct, and I did mention in a previous post that a lord would probably have more military assets on hand than his tenure obligation would require, in order to have something local to defend his own assets, fulfill obligations with some assets being down or absent, etc. And of course the option probably exists to provide cash instead of actual service (which is where mercs come in).

Damon.

[Kidd]

TDC and cpip, thanks for the canon excerpts, I believe you have points there, but the question is: which is the exception and which is the rule? Is Parma, the example TDC gave, repeated across all the planets of the IS or is it the outlier (which I propose is why it is singled out for mention.)

What I and I think Garrand too are trying to describe here are the basic fundamentals of Battletech's neo-feudal society (as a backdrop to the original question of "why is there a market for mercs"), or how things normally work. Our stance is that this is how things are 80% of the time, while there are obviously noble rivalries, instances of internecine war are neither common nor approved of by the powers-that-be e.g. using the first example given, the Davion War of Succession was quelled by the Star League, rather than the First Lord leaving them to sort it out amongst themselves, contrary to TDC's proposition:

If the invaders win, he offers fealty to the new regime in exchange for keeping his title/position.  Will EVERY petty nobleman behave this way?  No.  But will some?  Sure.  Will most?  In my dystopian view of the BTU, I say again yes.  The Lawful Good Houses that refuse to bend the knee to the invaders get weeded out when invaders win and divest them of their holdings.  The surviving Houses are the ones that are morally flexible.  Aristocratic Darwinism.

I think that is where we disagree.

In any case, whichever model of feudalism is adopted, we know there is ample scope for mercenaries.

[Col Toda]

In the BT universe they are always a need for interim trained troops . Having mercenaries train militia instead of house regular army units do so frees up those troops for other things . During an offensive the house artillery component gets hosed by an aerospace strike and you hire Mercenaries to fill in until a fresh unit is equipped and trained . Corporate security should the on site management thinks the militia cannot hack it 

[Kovax]

With regards to the BTU at least, nobles DO own their lands.  As far back as the 1st ed RPG, nobles are sovereigns of their own fiefs.  Yes they have lords, but they're in practical terms kings of their own petty kingdom. 

Kovax:  Let me ask you a question.  Do you presume that when a planet is raided/invaded, *every* military fighting force resists the attackers?  Not necessarily talking about private forces here.. I'm asking does every armed force around the globe abandon their garrisons to go resist the invaders' landing zone?  If so, how do defenders avoid being pulled out of place by a simple feint that leaves the rest of the planet undefended?

The truth likely lies somewhere in the middle: the locals may have forces requisitioned, particularly in the area of the immediate threat, with a few additions being brought in from further away for reinforcement.  Other units will be left in place to guard their respective fiefs or objectives.  The local lords who have their forces requisitioned may (or may not) have additional assets above and beyond their required contribution, so even if they are called, they may (and probably do) still have SOME forces defending their own land.  Forces may also be called up for campaigns, so some assets will occasionally be drawn upon and sent off-world.  Again, not everything will be called, but whatever is demanded (up to a maximum of the agreed amount) had BETTER be sent.

The ruling noble and/or House military commander on site will generally make the call, knowing that he doesn't dare amass everything possible because it will leave other targets unguarded.  If he calls, and you refuse, you're in trouble.  If he calls absolutely everyone together, and his amassed forces are caught out of place if/when the attack turns out to be a distraction for the real attack, then HE's in trouble.  Depending on the invaders, they'll probably replace him if they win, and the local lords under his authority will either need to swear new loyalties to their new House and overlord, or lose their fiefs.  Whether the invaders fight each of those individual lords, or just break the main planetary army and let the various local lords capitulate without further combat, depends on the situation.

As for ownership of land, that "ownership" is generally conditional upon each heir renewing the vows of loyalty upon taking control of the fief.  If the vows of fealty are not renewed by the new lord, control reverts to the next higher authority, and the fief may be entrusted to a more loyal and dependable vassal.  It takes a serious infraction to remove a lord from his fief (lords can't revoke their vassals' fiefs without just cause), but ultimately the local lord does not "own" the land in the long run, although it's typical for a landholding family to retain control for centuries.  They've got complete control as kings of their own petty kingdoms, as long as they pledge fealty with each new generation.

[massey]

The truth likely lies somewhere in the middle: the locals may have forces requisitioned, particularly in the area of the immediate threat, with a few additions being brought in from further away for reinforcement.  Other units will be left in place to guard their respective fiefs or objectives.  The local lords who have their forces requisitioned may (or may not) have additional assets above and beyond their required contribution, so even if they are called, they may (and probably do) still have SOME forces defending their own land.  Forces may also be called up for campaigns, so some assets will occasionally be drawn upon and sent off-world.  Again, not everything will be called, but whatever is demanded (up to a maximum of the agreed amount) had BETTER be sent.

The ruling noble and/or House military commander on site will generally make the call, knowing that he doesn't dare amass everything possible because it will leave other targets unguarded.  If he calls, and you refuse, you're in trouble.  If he calls absolutely everyone together, and his amassed forces are caught out of place if/when the attack turns out to be a distraction for the real attack, then HE's in trouble.  Depending on the invaders, they'll probably replace him if they win, and the local lords under his authority will either need to swear new loyalties to their new House and overlord, or lose their fiefs.  Whether the invaders fight each of those individual lords, or just break the main planetary army and let the various local lords capitulate without further combat, depends on the situation.

As for ownership of land, that "ownership" is generally conditional upon each heir renewing the vows of loyalty upon taking control of the fief.  If the vows of fealty are not renewed by the new lord, control reverts to the next higher authority, and the fief may be entrusted to a more loyal and dependable vassal.  It takes a serious infraction to remove a lord from his fief (lords can't revoke their vassals' fiefs without just cause), but ultimately the local lord does not "own" the land in the long run, although it's typical for a landholding family to retain control for centuries.  They've got complete control as kings of their own petty kingdoms, as long as they pledge fealty with each new generation.

Well there are different types of nobles.

Baron von Billy is descended from a mechwarrior 100 years ago who bought himself a title.  He owns a very large farm (say ten thousand acres), acts as head of the local government (like being the Emperor of Kansas), and gets certain noble benefits (everybody looks the other way when your idiot son wrecks his Hover-Ferrari with a blood alcohol content 5 times the legal limit).  In exchange, he promises to supply one Battlemech in good working order, and a mechwarrior to pilot it.  Normally the eldest son goes through mechwarrior training, and signs up with the family mech in Duke Steve's army.  In this way, Baron von Billy has met his obligations and can't be asked to do more.  All of his power rests upon performing this service.  Fail to provide a mech, you lose your land.

Baron Johnny, on the other hand, has family lands that go back 700 years.  His great great great (etc) grandfather was one of the first people to land on the planet.  Baron Johnny's family has very deep ties on this world.  At one point they ruled as absolute monarchs.  He has the same title as Baron von Billy, but that guy is "new money" compared to Baron Johnny.  Johnny is still in charge of his land because there were a series of wars, and his family had the military force to prevent anyone from taking it.  Eventually they signed an alliance with some other monarchs in the area, and that's how his land eventually became part of the Free World's League.  But you can't just swap him out and give his stuff to somebody else.  He's got too much power for that.  You can't make Baron Johnny do anything he doesn't want to do unless you're willing to send a company of mechs there just to fight him.


It's all a matter of how deeply somebody is dug in.  And the individual nobles are going to know what they can and what they can't get away with.  In general I think they'll supply the forces they've promised to provide.  Anything extra is basically "outside their contract".  Remember that a lot of these guys have real political power that is outside of their official titles.  A Duke may be higher ranking than a Count or a Baron, and you may technically owe fealty to the guy above you.  But that doesn't mean that the higher up guy can survive without the support of the lower ranking men.

You think about lower ranking nobles shirking their responsibilities, but what about when your liege is an idiot?  A battalion of hostile mechs lands 100 miles outside of the starport.  Duke Doofus IV realizes that he doesn't have enough forces to defend it, and he's going to lose.  He panics and sends out a demand that every baron on the planet send everything they have to save his stuff.  If you're the barons, do you want to leave your households undefended?  All because the Duke was a moron and didn't bother to properly defend his own stuff?  Nope, you won't do that.  And a Duke that demands that sort of thing from other nobles will quickly find that he's pissed off everyone underneath him and now he's facing a rebellion on his own world.

[Kovax]

The situation with Duke Dufus IV is a case where things break down and you've got rebellions or refusals.  Normally, either whoever is a step up from Duke Dufus is going to step in and try to sort out the mess afterwards (showing up with reinforcements), with a long drawn-out legal battle after the fact over who violated their oaths and WHY (your fief is probably safe if you can prove that he's a complete idiot, and that his orders were a threat to the House), or else the sorry Duke is going to lose to the invaders, in which case it doesn't matter what the Duke ordered, after he's deposed and replaced.

There are shades of gray where personal power and connections come into play, so Baron von Billy might suffer sanctions or confiscation of property, while Baron Johnny gets away with it.  They might also have sent a portion of their required force, risking penalties while still "mostly" following orders.  It probably also matters whether Duke Dufus was outmaneuvered and failed to engage, versus losing because he was slightly outmatched without your assistance.

[Easy]

cleanup

[Tai Dai Cultist]

In any case, whichever model of feudalism is adopted, we know there is ample scope for mercenaries.

I think we can agree to agree.  That's ultimately what I was getting at:  mercs get lots of work from patrons other than Great House Lords.. petty nobility is collectively a major employer too.

[Garrand]

You think about lower ranking nobles shirking their responsibilities, but what about when your liege is an idiot?  A battalion of hostile mechs lands 100 miles outside of the starport.  Duke Doofus IV realizes that he doesn't have enough forces to defend it, and he's going to lose.  He panics and sends out a demand that every baron on the planet send everything they have to save his stuff.  If you're the barons, do you want to leave your households undefended?  All because the Duke was a moron and didn't bother to properly defend his own stuff?  Nope, you won't do that.  And a Duke that demands that sort of thing from other nobles will quickly find that he's pissed off everyone underneath him and now he's facing a rebellion on his own world.

Keep in mind however that the Duke can only obligate that his vassals contribute forces that their oaths of Homage guarantee (this is the contract between the lord & his vassals). If the vassals are smart & actually care about their own personal territorial integrity, they'll have MORE assets available than what their feudal obligation requires. FREX lets say the local baron has an obligation of 1 Bn of light hovertanks & 1 Bn of rifle infantry, to be called up for service for defense of the planet in the case of invasion (or other operations -- depending on the actual agreement). Depending on the location of the world & the likelihood of being invaded, that local baron might have an entire REGIMENT of tanks & a regiment or two of rifle infantry available as assets, giving him a powerful force left aside for local defense. I would imagine nobles on border areas likely to get invaded would do this precise thing, whereas ones in the interior or likely not to get invaded would have only slightly more than their obligation. I would imagine FedSun barons in the Crucis March busily soiling themselves in terror during the 1st SW as they realize how inadequate their military assets were the Dragon comes pounding down the street (and start clamoring for as many mercs as they can get their hands on)...

Damon.

[massey]

Keep in mind however that the Duke can only obligate that his vassals contribute forces that their oaths of Homage guarantee (this is the contract between the lord & his vassals). If the vassals are smart & actually care about their own personal territorial integrity, they'll have MORE assets available than what their feudal obligation requires. FREX lets say the local baron has an obligation of 1 Bn of light hovertanks & 1 Bn of rifle infantry, to be called up for service for defense of the planet in the case of invasion (or other operations -- depending on the actual agreement). Depending on the location of the world & the likelihood of being invaded, that local baron might have an entire REGIMENT of tanks & a regiment or two of rifle infantry available as assets, giving him a powerful force left aside for local defense. I would imagine nobles on border areas likely to get invaded would do this precise thing, whereas ones in the interior or likely not to get invaded would have only slightly more than their obligation. I would imagine FedSun barons in the Crucis March busily soiling themselves in terror during the 1st SW as they realize how inadequate their military assets were the Dragon comes pounding down the street (and start clamoring for as many mercs as they can get their hands on)...

Damon.

Of course the local barons have more.  The discussion in this thread has meandered a bit here and there.  Somebody upthread made the argument that even after you've supplied whatever forces you were supposed to provide, other nobles can call on you for more support.  I disagreed.

What military obligations you're supposed to fulfill will vary from planet to planet and era to era.  On some no-name world in the midst of the 3rd Succession War, a low ranking noble is probably supposed to provide something like one or two mechs.  Of course, he's going to want forces to protect his own property as well.  I tend to inflate Battletech army sizes to what I consider more "realistic" (ha ha) levels by doing this.  Because you've got a lot of little guys protecting their own interests, the overall forces appear smaller than they really are.

So let's go for a quick and dirty example.

Mudball VI
Population: 80 million
Ruler:  Duke Dimwit III
Other nobles:  Barons 1-5
Major cities:  Capital City (10m), Springfield (2m), Brockway (1.5m), Ogdenville (1.5m), North Haverbrook (1.5m)

Official defending forces (provided by the Duke):  2 Battlemech companies, 1 battalion Scorpion tanks, 1 regiment infantry (with transport vehicles), 4 ASFs

Forces supplied by Baron 1:  2 Battlemechs
Forces supplied by Baron 2:  1 Battlemech, 2 Hunter Light Support Tanks
Forces supplied by Baron 3:  1 Battlemech, 4 Warrior H-7 VTOLs
Forces supplied by Baron 4:  2 Battlemechs
Forces supplied by Baron 5:  2 Battlemechs

Additional forces on planet:
-Each baron has a lance of light vehicles and a battalion of infantry he keeps on his own lands.  Barons 1-3 have a little more wealth, and each retains a pair of light mechs as well.
-The Advanced Optics Medium Laser factory retains a lance of mechs (2 Jenners, 2 Phoenix Hawks) a lance of Striker tanks, and 2 companies of infantry.
-The Duke has a lance of medium/heavy mechs, 6 Mechbuster fighters, 2 lances of Saladin hover tanks, and a battalion of infantry as his "personal guard" that doesn't leave his castle grounds.
-Capital City maintains a lance of Urbanmechs and a regiment of foot infantry.
-Springfield has 2 Stinger mechs and a Wasp, and a battalion of infantry.
-Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrook each keep a battalion of infantry and a pair of light mechs.
-There are approximately 20 regiments of foot infantry and 5 regiments of very light vehicles (too weak for real record sheets -- treat as mechanized infantry) scattered about the planet.  These units have assigned positions around the planet and so are never concentrated in any one area.  At most, attackers will face a few companies in any one place.
-There is also an air force of 24 Defender Medium Strike Conventional Fighters.  Like the infantry, these are spread around the globe and the most an attacker is likely to face is 4-6 fighters.
-There are also approximately 1 battalion of combat vehicles, and 5 or 6 mechs that are in private hands (i.e., organized crime, lone nutjob survivalists, etc) that are completely off the books and nobody is aware of them.

--

If you look at the forces of Mudball VI on paper, you're likely to just see the Duke's forces and the reinforcements by the 5 barons.  So almost a full Battlemech battalion, a battalion of light tanks, and a regiment of infantry.  This is what shows up on the viewscreen when military strategists are looking over the planet.  And most of the time, that's all you have to worry about facing.  The rest of the forces are people's personal household guard (or corporate defense forces, or the mech grandpa keeps in the barn), and they aren't going to march out to meet you unless you are attacking something they want to protect.  Half the forces on planet are not interested in taking on every little invasion that occurs.

[massey]

Back to the original original question, the merc trade exists for a variety of reasons.  First and foremost, it exists because of cash.  But there are non-monetary reasons as well.


For the Houses/Nobles, it gives you:
-A quick source of trained soldiers in times of need
-The ability to raise more troops (temporarily) than your lands can normally support
-Access to specialized units that can fulfill rare sorts of missions
-Throwaway guys that nobody will miss
-Plausible deniability when you attack somebody else
-Well treated mercs with long-term contracts become almost as good as another House unit
-Forces that have instant loyalty to you, not that idiot cousin of yours...

For the mercs, it gives you:
-Legitimacy
-A chance at immense power and wealth
-A way off this godforsaken rock


So from a House/Noble perspective, it makes a lot of sense.  Even if it isn't that cost-efficient in the long run, you need more soldiers right this minute.  There are all sorts of units available, and you get to pick and choose.  You can hire some ragtag band of mechjocks that you intend of just feeding into a meatgrinder.  They're D- rated, everyone will think they screwed up.  Or you can hire some highly specialized group to do a job that you normally wouldn't have the ability to pull off.

From a merc perspective, there's always the chance to get rich.  While there's a lot of risk to it, if you were born just a poor kid who was good at the mech simulators, you don't have many other paths to success in the Inner Sphere.  Merc life also gives you legitimacy, which is very important if you maybe don't have a good past.  Or if you stole something important (like a mech). 

[Tai Dai Cultist]

From a merc perspective, there's always the chance to get rich.  While there's a lot of risk to it, if you were born just a poor kid who was good at the mech simulators, you don't have many other paths to success in the Inner Sphere.  Merc life also gives you legitimacy, which is very important if you maybe don't have a good past.  Or if you stole something important (like a mech).

I mentioned it upthread but I think it warrants being mentioned again:  A good portion of the mercs out there are veterans of one of the various House Armies.  Not every mechwarrior considers himself particularly tied to a Successor State.. and once you've been trained and have an initial tour of duty on your military file/resume, there's the temptation to "go pro" not just for money, but also perhaps adventure!  Mercs are "always" getting into action whereas most House Army regiments are sitting in garrison most of the time.  Sure, it takes a certain personality type to forgo more of a steady but potentially boring job for a risky one.  But those types of people are surely out there.

Mercs are also mostly seen as legit, respectable professionals in the BTU.  There's generally no shame involved in terminating service to a House Lord in favor of merc work.  For example, in Steiner space serving as a merc is normally viewed as every bit as honorable as serving in the LCAF.

[Kovax]

In addition to the forces you're OBLIGATED to send, other nobles could "request" additional forces, but you're not legally obligated to comply.  Depending on your and their contacts and connections, it may be prudent to comply, or to at least make a token effort at compliance.  Any noble with an ounce of functioning brain cells wouldn't demand or request 100% of your domestic defenses, otherwise there wouldn't be any defense against a local uprising or secondary attack.  Likewise, any vassal with an ounce of functioning brain cells would look for some legally permissible way of "delaying" the departure of at least some of his forces, for the same reason.  Any rational House drawing up the terms in the first place would leave such loopholes and loosely worded phrases to allow a small amount of discretion, while rigidly enforcing the main body of the requirement.

I see it pretty much the way that massey does, with a substantial amount of "stuff" that's not considered to be a normal part of the planetary garrison, but a small amount of it MAY still be present, or show up later in support, depending on where the attacker lands.

Varying portions of that assorted "stuff" will be owned by nobles, corporations, or a few well-connected individuals, and some of those entities will hire mercenaries for defense of their assets, instead of, or in addition to, owning their own forces.  Little or none of that is beholden to the leading noble, although it may be "practical" in certain cases to provide some measure of support upon formal request, rather than get on the noble's bad side.  As with most other things in life, what you must do or what you can get away with are often dependent upon who you know, and how many favors you or they owe.

In a society with long communication delays and a need for local authorities to exercise their own judgement, there will inevitably be a lot of "shades of gray" in the laws and regulations, to allow for some flexibility.  There's a reason why military units are rated for loyalty, and nobles are probably a lot less reliable.

[Daemion]

In a society with long communication delays and a need for local authorities to exercise their own judgement, there will inevitably be a lot of "shades of gray" in the laws and regulations, to allow for some flexibility.  There's a reason why military units are rated for loyalty, and nobles are probably a lot less reliable.

And this helps explain why the official units that are on the books which happen to be at least a month's travel away are deployed the way they are, and that a raider or invader isn't free to hit the 'unguarded' worlds with impunity. There's something there that will offer a speed bump, or an outright obstacle. And, the defenders of a stellar region probably never have to actually lift off unless it 'looks serious'.