Author Topic: Military Commander Take II  (Read 3298 times)

Colt Ward

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Military Commander Take II
« on: 26 June 2019, 11:54:27 »
Captain James T Kirk
Captain Hikaru Sulu
Captain Jean Luc Picard
Commander Ben Sisko
Captain Kathryn Janeway
Captain Daniel Archer
Captain (neo) Pike
Commander Adama
Commander William Adama (neo)
Commander Cain
Rear Admiral Helena Cain
Captain Apollo
Captain Lee 'Apollo' Adama (neo)
Colonel TC McQueen
Commodore Glen Ross
Marshall Stacker Pentecost
Ranger Nate Lambert
Colonel Jack O’Neil
General George Hammond
General Henry Landry
Lt Col Cameron Mitchell
Colonel Samantha Carter
Major John Sheppard
Colonel Everett Young
Colonel David Telford
Admiral Ackbar
General Veers
Admiral Piett
Grand Admiral Thrawn
Commander Palleon
Commander Wedge Antilles
General Garm Bel Iblis


So its been a while since this was discussed (like . . . 10 years?) but I got to thinking about popular representations of military commanders in Sci Fi, particularly ship's captains though quite a few I posted are not.  Some are more heavily portrayed in books (SW Legends characters) but I look forward to the varied responses & POV.

Edit-  To make it a bit clearer, who comes off as the best representation of a commander?
« Last Edit: 26 June 2019, 14:32:22 by Colt Ward »
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Kidd

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #1 on: 26 June 2019, 13:09:07 »
No Honor Harrington.

Tell me, can you fail any harder than that? :D

Colt Ward

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #2 on: 26 June 2019, 13:11:04 »
I said it was not conclusive, lol . . . and afaik has not been in a movie or TV show?  My SW picks all had time on either movies or cartoons IIRC.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Kidd

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #3 on: 26 June 2019, 13:42:49 »
Haha, nah just yanking your chain. BTW, you don't actually ask any clear question in your post. I suppose you're just asking for general reviews?

Hmm, I'm not a Trekkie or BSGer, so I can't comment on most of these.

I liked Stacker Pentecost as the head of a small, dying, (para-)military organisation. He had to juggle recruitment, training, diplomacy, scientific R&D, logistics, the battlefield, and in the end stepping into the cockpit himself when needs must - he is to me THE template for a Battletech commander out of all on this list that I know of.

Ackbar is more the top-down fleet admiral, directing the grand fleet and interacting with squadron/flotilla leaders (Calrissian), yet also showing understanding and compassion for each Rebel lost in the fight. He shows a good combination of command presence, decisiveness and delegation in his brief moments onscreen. I love watching his scenes. It's a pity he doesn't get to shine in the new movies.

Veers is unfortunately the henchman to Vader, the Bad Guy, not much screentime as a result, but his competence is clear - as one has to be, to survive long under Vader's command. Wonderful poise; he is arguably the exemplar of peak Imperial military strength - survives ROTJ as well.

It's easy to dismiss Piett as the butt-monkey, the incompetent henchman to counter Veers' cool effectiveness, but remember he's at least better than Ozzel or Needa*. I guess the Navy just doesn't have m(any) competent commanders. Julian Glover, wish you had done even better serving the Lannister cause.

*who serves mainly to showcase Vader's rad smack talk skillz. Sick burns, homey.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #4 on: 26 June 2019, 13:48:15 »
What, no Colonel Wilma Deering?!
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qc mech3

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #5 on: 26 June 2019, 14:13:43 »
I tough Palleon was Captain of the Chimera under Thrawn.

I'll add to the Star Wars crew:
General Madine
General Rieekan
Admiral Motti
General Tagge
Baron (Commander?) Soontir Fel
Admiral Daala

Colt Ward

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #6 on: 26 June 2019, 14:33:29 »
Yeah, Palleon was Thrawn's flag captain . . . and I left off some of the SW list for the same reason as Harrington, I was unsure they had any actual screen time.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Daryk

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #7 on: 26 June 2019, 18:09:27 »
Does Nick Fury count as "sci-fi"?  ???

hoosierhick

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #8 on: 26 June 2019, 18:48:30 »
Yeah, Palleon was Thrawn's flag captain . . . and I left off some of the SW list for the same reason as Harrington, I was unsure they had any actual screen time.

Wasn't he at least named towards the end of Rebels?

qc mech3

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #9 on: 26 June 2019, 18:55:37 »
From my list, only Fel and Daala are Legend characters. All the others are cannon from the original trilogy. Thrawn, Palleon and the Chimaera became cannon with the Rebel show
« Last Edit: 27 June 2019, 07:28:37 by qc mech3 »

Ruger

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #10 on: 26 June 2019, 19:45:55 »
No Honor Harrington.

Tell me, can you fail any harder than that? :D

No Colonel Alois Hammer.

No General Johnny Rico and variants.

No LT. Jean Razak and variants.

Ruger

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monbvol

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #11 on: 26 June 2019, 20:10:26 »
Or Captain Dylan Hunt(Andromeda)?

Even better Captain Edward Jellico(ST:TNG)?

Captain John J Sheridan(B5)

Captain Elizabeth Lockley(B5)

Commander Jeffery Sinclair(B5)

Matti

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #12 on: 26 June 2019, 22:31:17 »
I second on commander of Hammer's Slammers
You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights errant, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

Sharpnel

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #13 on: 26 June 2019, 23:19:09 »
Does Nick Fury count as "sci-fi"?  ???
Yes. Superheroes are most definitely sci-fi
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Deadborder

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #14 on: 27 June 2019, 05:56:39 »
Daala could lose a battle to a force lead by a can of Spam. Hell, the Spam could outwit her on its own
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qc mech3

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #15 on: 27 June 2019, 07:35:43 »
Daala could lose a battle to a force lead by a can of Spam. Hell, the Spam could outwit her on its own

Never said otherwise  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Only Fel, Thrawn and Palleon were written to be competent and more then cannon fodders.

From the Perry Rhodan universe (french translation, so I don't know their english ranks), you have:

Perry Rhodan, Stellarque
Reginal Bull, Vice-Stellarque
Atlan, Emperor
Julian Tefflor, Admiral
.... So many more I'm forgetting  :-[ :-X :-X

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #16 on: 27 June 2019, 13:40:08 »
Commander John Crichton
Force Lieutenant Aeren Sun (I think that was her rank)
Captain Bialar Crais
Scorpius (rank unknown, but only one person in the entire Peacekeeper force was shown to have the authority to give orders to him)
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Colt Ward

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #17 on: 27 June 2019, 13:58:25 »
Okay, not asking for a list- I just presented one to get the ball rolling.  It was more about the presentation and who acted the most like you would expect of a proper commanding officer.  If its not on my list, fine but compare & contrast to discuss the merits of who you think exhibited the behaviors.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

CapricornNoble

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #18 on: 27 June 2019, 16:56:26 »
I'd actually have to think pretty hard on this.....

Based on my experiences , I'd probably judge commanders on the following traits (in no particular order):
-energy & intensity
-tactical/operational vision
-integrity
-ability to motivate their forces (charisma)
-a certain touch of ruthlessness (this combines with charisma to produce the right "command presence" to actually get units to accomplish missions under duress)

The only SF characters who immediately come to mind as high on all categories are maybe.....
Ivan Antonov  (David Weber's Starfire novels)
Commissar Yarrick (40K)
Colonel Quaritch (Avatar film)

Most of SF is ship/naval-focused and I think the leadership style and command presence of an admiral is probably hugely different from what I've seen in the Army and Marine Corps. Every full-bird Navy Captain I've ever met has had a soft command presence to me, when you are used to working for Colonels like: an armor officer with PTSD, a soft-spoken Recon Marine who can bench press 2x what you can even though he's 50, and an infantry officer who can melt lieutenants with just his eyes but more often encourages people with positive reinforcement.

Daryk

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #19 on: 27 June 2019, 17:03:42 »
Charisma counts for a LOT.  I won't invoke Godwin's Law, but it seems to have trumped everything else historically, and not just in the case that inspired Godwin.

Ruger

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #20 on: 28 June 2019, 02:54:56 »
I'd actually have to think pretty hard on this.....

Based on my experiences , I'd probably judge commanders on the following traits (in no particular order):
-energy & intensity
-tactical/operational vision
-integrity
-ability to motivate their forces (charisma)
-a certain touch of ruthlessness (this combines with charisma to produce the right "command presence" to actually get units to accomplish missions under duress)

The only SF characters who immediately come to mind as high on all categories are maybe.....
Ivan Antonov  (David Weber's Starfire novels)
Commissar Yarrick (40K)
Colonel Quaritch (Avatar film)

Most of SF is ship/naval-focused and I think the leadership style and command presence of an admiral is probably hugely different from what I've seen in the Army and Marine Corps. Every full-bird Navy Captain I've ever met has had a soft command presence to me, when you are used to working for Colonels like: an armor officer with PTSD, a soft-spoken Recon Marine who can bench press 2x what you can even though he's 50, and an infantry officer who can melt lieutenants with just his eyes but more often encourages people with positive reinforcement.

I’d actually consider both James T Kirk and Jean-Luc Picard to exhibit different versions of those traits, as well as William T Riker and Benjamin Sisko.

Thrawn possessed most of those, except possibly the charisma part, while from the Legends universe, Soontir Fell did as well, possibly with Garm Bel Iblis as well. Anakin Skywalker could display those traits as well, as could Obi-Wan Kenobi.

John J Sheridan possessed them in spades, and G’Kar came to display many of those qualities as well.

Ruger
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CapricornNoble

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #21 on: 28 June 2019, 08:34:46 »
I’d actually consider both James T Kirk and Jean-Luc Picard to exhibit different versions of those traits, as well as William T Riker and Benjamin Sisko.

Thrawn possessed most of those, except possibly the charisma part, while from the Legends universe, Soontir Fell did as well, possibly with Garm Bel Iblis as well. Anakin Skywalker could display those traits as well, as could Obi-Wan Kenobi.

John J Sheridan possessed them in spades, and G’Kar came to display many of those qualities as well.

Ruger

Yes, as I was thinking about it more while drifting off to sleep, and Kirk, Sisko, and Sheridan were foremost in my mind. In particular Wrath of Khan-era Kirk. Kirk is an excellent ship commander but I think I was too focused on judging operational-level examples. But the OP didn't mandate a specific level of warfare, that was just my own bias and filter.

Oh, and I'll add JT Marsh from Exosquad. I really need to re-watch that show.

Ruger

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #22 on: 28 June 2019, 10:13:15 »
Oh, and I'll add JT Marsh from Exosquad. I really need to re-watch that show.

I agree. Admiral Winfield also. Jonas Simbacca as well.

I only wish the second season made it to release on dvd. I need to finish the series to go with my first season dvd’s.

Ruger
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Deadborder

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #23 on: 28 June 2019, 17:54:10 »
Never said otherwise  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Only Fel, Thrawn and Palleon were written to be competent and more then cannon fodders.


Then again, Pelleon recommended Daala as his replacement as the leader of the Imperial Remanant... even though he'd also described her as an incompetent who did more damage to the Empire then the Rebels ever did. So I'd question his judgement a little.

Or, you know, the stock terrible writing in the Expanded Universe
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qc mech3

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #24 on: 28 June 2019, 19:55:36 »
True for the writing  :thumbsup:

My head-cannon is that Palleon was fed-up with the remnant and gave them what they deserved.  ;D ;D ;D

Nightlord01

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #25 on: 01 July 2019, 05:43:18 »
Yes, as I was thinking about it more while drifting off to sleep, and Kirk, Sisko, and Sheridan were foremost in my mind. In particular Wrath of Khan-era Kirk. Kirk is an excellent ship commander but I think I was too focused on judging operational-level examples. But the OP didn't mandate a specific level of warfare, that was just my own bias and filter.

Oh, and I'll add JT Marsh from Exosquad. I really need to re-watch that show.

Kirk was literally the worst Captain in the history of Sci-Fi, followed closely by Jason Burke. The CO should never, ever leave their ship in a tactical environment, ever!

One of the best I've read of was Captain (Navy) Jonathan Wolfe from Black Fleet, and Captain (Army) Andrew Greyson from Frontlines. Those two actually behave like military officers.

To be fair, most of the way Naval Officers are portrayed in Sci-Fi is disappointing to me, so only finding a couple I can appreciate isn't really that unusual.

Daryk

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #26 on: 01 July 2019, 15:56:50 »
TV and movies have a hard time conveying what officers actually act like.  Hollywood likes to idealize what they think we're like, in both directions (villain and hero).  In reality, we're all human.  We make human mistakes.  But we have responsibilities that most people don't have.  That's a hard concept to convey visually.  Not impossible, but hard.  People most interested in making a buck aren't usually keen on "hard".  Movies like "12 o'Clock High" and "The Caine Mutiny" were hard, but won acclaim (and decent profits) nonetheless.  Both of those were shown to me in professional training, and generated quite spirited discussion among the students.

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #27 on: 01 July 2019, 16:25:29 »
After rogue One on e of my friends had this to say about Ackbar and the other Mon Calamari admirals/captains:

they seem to be angry. Always. All the time. And act like bloodlust blinded suicides. bringing the rest of the fleet with them for the downfall.

And looking at the footage of their battles, sacrificing unit afte runit for no apparent gain, or directly doing a MELEE ATTACK WITH A SHIP I ended up agreeing with him.

Mon Calamari are only leading fleets because they are the big hardware providers of the resistance, not because they are any good at it.


Kidd

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #28 on: 01 July 2019, 18:52:43 »
After rogue One on e of my friends had this to say about Ackbar and the other Mon Calamari admirals/captains:

they seem to be angry. Always. All the time. And act like bloodlust blinded suicides. bringing the rest of the fleet with them for the downfall.

And looking at the footage of their battles, sacrificing unit afte runit for no apparent gain, or directly doing a MELEE ATTACK WITH A SHIP I ended up agreeing with him.

Mon Calamari are only leading fleets because they are the big hardware providers of the resistance, not because they are any good at it.
Ouch. I almost physically felt that. Ouch.

I don't like it but I don't necessarily disagree with it - perhaps a compromise position is that the Mon Cals are more fervent and willing to expend ships and people compared to the other Alliance leaders...

Colt Ward

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Re: Military Commander Take II
« Reply #29 on: 01 July 2019, 22:22:34 »
Eh, that Hammerhead was rule of cool.

You see Ackbar do much more with tactics (like the Ackbar Slash) than you do in the movies.  You are also forgetting, it was a human that convinced Ackbar the fleet should stay at Endor and that they needed to close with the Imperial fleet.  Ackbar ended up agreeing and commanded them to get to close range to check the superlaser- its like artillery or CAS is not going to drop on their own folks (usually).
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

 

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