Author Topic: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?  (Read 5774 times)

Red Pins

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Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« on: 20 December 2019, 00:42:05 »
A quick glance through sourcebooks and fluff has just basically told me they're more smaller and compact, but not a definitive answer.  Help, please?
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #1 on: 20 December 2019, 00:46:17 »
They do dominate.  Clan LRMs are amazing.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #2 on: 20 December 2019, 01:19:56 »
The only real downside is that they do variable damage, in 5 point chunks. The CERPPC still does 15 points, and clan pulse lasers get the -2, which keeps them competitive.

Some people like the 3 point hits from SR ATMs, but tube for tube I'll still back the versatility of the CLRM. They go indirect, too!
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #3 on: 20 December 2019, 02:37:31 »
iATMs, with Streak on direct fire and indirect capable.  But yeah, for straight out numbers LRMs.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #4 on: 20 December 2019, 03:40:36 »
Heat might be a bit of a concern for 'Mechs. Also this isn't 1st ed Starfire where everyone is fielding custom forces so there's nothing to stop min-maxing (For reference that's one of the downsides of having a rule book so small in can apparently fit in your pants back pocket.)

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #5 on: 20 December 2019, 04:00:24 »
What they don't tell you is that the reload mechanism of Clan LRMs is prone to catastrophic failure by using lightweight mechanical parts they simple break after to much stress... that's the reason most clan magazines only have a single ton of ammunition.

Another issue is that the fuze and guidance section of those clan missiles is plain garbage - the sophisticated Holy LRM, for example, has two separate guidance systems, and a multi-purpose warhead that is great in blasting through armor and slicing through meat. The Clan LRM warhead is an unstable high explosive in a light metal case - guidance is a radio-guided-package, very simple to disrupt.

For the grizzle business of warfare you should not use Clan Missiles or any Clan System at all - that stuff only works for the Clown-Circus-Warfare that those guys are playing.

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #6 on: 20 December 2019, 06:38:26 »
Heat gets you in the end. Your first few LRM20s are free, then you rapidly run out of crits for HS and ammo.

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #7 on: 20 December 2019, 07:14:01 »
For funzies in a campaign I outfitted the opfor with LRM carriers that carried six cLRM20s

That was fun

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #8 on: 20 December 2019, 08:59:24 »
I think the Clan LRM is the best weapon the Clans have. Great range, no minimum range, heat not a huge issue, and light weight for the launcher. A Bane 3 is one of the most deadly mechs out there.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #9 on: 20 December 2019, 10:02:29 »
For funzies in a campaign I outfitted the opfor with LRM carriers that carried six cLRM20s

That was fun

Real question was how much ammo you gave them?  And did your opponent declare they would fight in the shade?

For the OP . . . its one of those acknowledged things (aka Apollo's law type) that most folks look past, like its more efficient to mount 3 LRM5s rather than a LRM15.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #10 on: 20 December 2019, 10:12:21 »
standard ammo load of four tons. they were there for a good time, not a long time. I also gave them Clan FF
« Last Edit: 20 December 2019, 10:16:16 by Sartris »

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #11 on: 20 December 2019, 10:14:09 »
Yeah, 4 rounds . . . I was just wondering if you did T-Augs or smoke for giggles.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #12 on: 20 December 2019, 10:14:15 »
they were there for a good time, not a long time

I need to remember that sentence, it'd make an excellent unit motto. :thumbsup:
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #13 on: 20 December 2019, 10:19:03 »
Yeah, 4 rounds . . . I was just wondering if you did T-Augs or smoke for giggles.

i wasn't big on advanced ammo but a company of those laying mines for a few turns to prep a battlefield would be... sufficient

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #14 on: 20 December 2019, 21:45:22 »
I just look at it as, after 50 years, the Clans still have a massive advantage in tonnage compared to IS models.  Why haven't they decided to sacrifice durability etc.in favor of the lighter unit?

Fluff only goes so far, in the face of that kind of advantage.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #15 on: 20 December 2019, 23:44:40 »
I think the Clan LRM is the best weapon the Clans have. Great range, no minimum range, heat not a huge issue, and light weight for the launcher. A Bane 3 is one of the most deadly mechs out there.

I completely agree with you about the Kraken (Bane) 3 with its 8 LRM 15's. Having no minimum basically makes them long range SRM 15 packs...

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #16 on: 21 December 2019, 09:29:26 »
I think the Clan LRM is the best weapon the Clans have. Great range, no minimum range, heat not a huge issue, and light weight for the launcher. A Bane 3 is one of the most deadly mechs out there.
  Yeah, I used a Bane 3 for the first time in a tournament -It was a monster. The Bane and Black Python easily took down 4-5 times their weight in Omnis.

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #17 on: 21 December 2019, 10:44:12 »
Clanners tend to favor trail combat so indirect fire is a afterthought for many. That said, you see LRMs on allot of Clan loadouts, from light mechs to assaults.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #18 on: 21 December 2019, 10:50:42 »
Hence pretty much every Omni having a double erppc loadout.

My first real experience using cLRMs was a Nova Cat B. I was horrified as we were on a small map and it was my only unit until someone pointed out the removal of minimum range.


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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #19 on: 21 December 2019, 10:55:43 »
I suspect you were then horrified in the other direction...  ^-^

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #20 on: 21 December 2019, 11:22:37 »
Using the business end of horror is much more enjoyable it turns out

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #21 on: 21 December 2019, 11:43:14 »
Heh... good point!  :thumbsup:

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #22 on: 21 December 2019, 12:05:57 »
What they don't tell you is that the reload mechanism of Clan LRMs is prone to catastrophic failure by using lightweight mechanical parts they simple break after to much stress... that's the reason most clan magazines only have a single ton of ammunition.

Another issue is that the fuze and guidance section of those clan missiles is plain garbage - the sophisticated Holy LRM, for example, has two separate guidance systems, and a multi-purpose warhead that is great in blasting through armor and slicing through meat. The Clan LRM warhead is an unstable high explosive in a light metal case - guidance is a radio-guided-package, very simple to disrupt.

For the grizzle business of warfare you should not use Clan Missiles or any Clan System at all - that stuff only works for the Clown-Circus-Warfare that those guys are playing.
Are the stress/warhead/guidance things actually written down somewhere, at least in fluff?  They sure don't have any actual impact on the tabletop to that effect, either directly on the board or indirectly on the strategic scale...

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #23 on: 21 December 2019, 12:54:30 »
I've never seen it even hinted anywhere.  I suspect it was something Hptm. Streiger came up with themselves.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #24 on: 21 December 2019, 13:08:42 »
Are the stress/warhead/guidance things actually written down somewhere, at least in fluff?  They sure don't have any actual impact on the tabletop to that effect, either directly on the board or indirectly on the strategic scale...
  Some GMs use fluff in campaigns and tabletop, fluff rules are like quirks and may be applied, depending on the GM.

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #25 on: 21 December 2019, 15:13:01 »
I've never seen it even hinted anywhere.  I suspect it was something Hptm. Streiger came up with themselves.
Yes I'm guilty to just blowing hot air.

Although there are a couple of options to make Clan Tech not the Mary Sue its supposed to be (for example crit on 7+ instead of 8+)
LRM and SRMs work like DumbFire unless you mount Artemis but then you don't get the +2, Streaks do not get auto hit but need to roll for cluster but +2.

Stuff like that
« Last Edit: 21 December 2019, 15:39:06 by Hptm. Streiger »

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #26 on: 21 December 2019, 18:04:01 »
The only real downside is that they do variable damage, in 5 point chunks. The CERPPC still does 15 points, and clan pulse lasers get the -2, which keeps them competitive.

Some people like the 3 point hits from SR ATMs, but tube for tube I'll still back the versatility of the CLRM. They go indirect, too!

Per page 96, BMM, ATM deal damage in 5 point chunks too. EDIT - nemmind, I just re-parsed what you wrote.

5 point clusters are the least valuable form of cluster in the game. 1 or two point clusters can critseek, single big hits can punch a hole, but an an equivalent value of 5 pointers, in my experience, usually have to strip the mech of most of its armor before anything worth hitting gets knocked out. A hit from an AC/20 is usually far more valuable than from twenty LRM

Big hits followed by many small clusters are the best way to wreck a mech efficiently.
« Last Edit: 21 December 2019, 20:07:05 by Greatclub »

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #27 on: 21 December 2019, 20:52:55 »
Yes I'm guilty to just blowing hot air.

Although there are a couple of options to make Clan Tech not the Mary Sue its supposed to be (for example crit on 7+ instead of 8+)
LRM and SRMs work like DumbFire unless you mount Artemis but then you don't get the +2, Streaks do not get auto hit but need to roll for cluster but +2.

Stuff like that
This is kinda getting too close to house-rules at this point.

The cLRMs are really great, and they're quite possibly the most improved weapon of all (going from a dedicated fire-support weapon to a useful general-purpose missile you can slap on just about everything), but they're not a mary-sue, and I've actually got more mileage out of the various Clan energy weapons (ERML, ERLL, ERPPC, and all the pulses).
Big hits followed by many small clusters are the best way to wreck a mech efficiently.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #28 on: 21 December 2019, 21:29:44 »
Clan LRMs and SRMs are a straight upgrade to the classic missile technologies left to stagnate in the Inner Sphere.  They absolutely dominate.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #29 on: 21 December 2019, 22:05:10 »
Per page 96, BMM, ATM deal damage in 5 point chunks too. EDIT - nemmind, I just re-parsed what you wrote.

5 point clusters are the least valuable form of cluster in the game. 1 or two point clusters can critseek, single big hits can punch a hole, but an an equivalent value of 5 pointers, in my experience, usually have to strip the mech of most of its armor before anything worth hitting gets knocked out. A hit from an AC/20 is usually far more valuable than from twenty LRM

Big hits followed by many small clusters are the best way to wreck a mech efficiently.

I agree but ATMs are amazing though. Because HE ATM12 comes out to eight clusters on a 11 or 12 when rolling for hits and at least five clusters on anything better than a 5. Overall, the cLRM is probably superior, but ATMs certainly earn their keep in the right hands and under the right circumstances.

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #30 on: 22 December 2019, 01:56:29 »
standard ammo load of four tons. they were there for a good time, not a long time. I also gave them Clan FF

IMO ya need more ammo than that.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #31 on: 23 December 2019, 07:23:57 »
Every campaign  I have ever been ammo cost . At best 2X for a preferred  customer . 2.8 for an allowed customer  . 30 =50 x base price black market.  Found it ok for Streak LRMs as they are only expended should they hit . Also Semi Guided Follow  The Leader and ARAD ammo not available  for Clan . Logistical  train depending  on client  may not have the support option of Clan ammo

For example a mercenary  unit working for the Marian Hegemony  in the 3070s without  allowed  customer  status with the Diamond Sharks pay the black market  30-50 x for reloads . This is not sustainable  .
« Last Edit: 23 December 2019, 07:49:26 by Col Toda »

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #32 on: 30 December 2019, 23:23:09 »


  On topic:  In lore I think Colt has the right of it.  The Clans typically duel one on one and a lot of the flexibility of LRMs in general are an afterthought and rarely used.  To the Clans, LRMs are simply a secondary weapon to use once you've opened holes in the armour- in which they compete against SRM/SSRMs, LB-X autocannons and the newer ATMs and HAGs as well. 

 The 'real life' answer is of course that canon designs aren't supposed to be optimized to let players that like to create their own units tinker with them.  There's also an argument for variety, considering Clan LRMs have existed since 1989.

Yes I'm guilty to just blowing hot air.

Although there are a couple of options to make Clan Tech not the Mary Sue its supposed to be (for example crit on 7+ instead of 8+)
LRM and SRMs work like DumbFire unless you mount Artemis but then you don't get the +2, Streaks do not get auto hit but need to roll for cluster but +2.

Stuff like that

  While Red Pin's question wasn't exactly clear in which sense Clan LRMs should 'dominate' (My interpretation is that he's asking why more designs don't feature them), I'm curious why you feel the need to state your own house rules and fluff as fact, as well as take the opportunity to complain about the 'Mary Sue' Clans.

  As an aside, perhaps you'll be happy to know that while I dropped considerable amounts of money on the game over the years- first to FASA, then FANPRO and of course, CGL- (I collected every Jihad sourcebook as it released) I have spent exactly $0.00 towards Battletech since 2015 or so (with the exception of HBS's video game).  As someone that enjoyed the Clans, I got tired of buying 3025 material I didn't enjoy and reading complaints about the Clans in whichever media I came across (here, other forums, Reddit, Megamek, HBS forums, Piranah's forums etc.).

  Is that what you mean when you tell people not to use Clan LRMs in a threat that had no mention of using them ?  Are you assuming a blanket statement

  P.S. I've seen the kickstarter of course, and it's a good first step in my mind.  I'm still on the fence with contributing to it just yet, but I'm still feeling a bit cynical and suspect that the popularity was just people buying up cheap 3025 minis.  I'll probably keep lurking and maybe if some more Clan featured products continue to appear I'll bite again.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #33 on: 30 December 2019, 23:44:37 »
The only real downside is that they do variable damage, in 5 point chunks. The CERPPC still does 15 points, and clan pulse lasers get the -2, which keeps them competitive.

Some people like the 3 point hits from SR ATMs, but tube for tube I'll still back the versatility of the CLRM. They go indirect, too!


Per page 96, BMM, ATM deal damage in 5 point chunks too. EDIT - nemmind, I just re-parsed what you wrote.


Well parse it for me then, because I'm with what you were starting to say.

ATM's don't hit like SRMs for Per Missile damage.

Short Range ATMs do 5 point groupings.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #34 on: 30 December 2019, 23:51:18 »
I first parsed 3 point clusters. What (I think) he meant was 3/missile damage

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #35 on: 30 December 2019, 23:58:47 »
AH,  Ok,  the "hits" throws off that message but I can now see what you were seeing :)

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #36 on: 31 December 2019, 07:22:15 »
My interpretation is that he's asking why more designs don't feature them

Maybe it's because most of the LRM tubes went to Bane 3 production  :D
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #37 on: 31 December 2019, 08:38:41 »
Whatever the in- or out-of universe explanation, a high percentage of clan mechs utilize energy weapons. When I did a census of units in megamech a few years ago, I noticed unlike IS units that see a decline in missile weapon percentages overall from 3050-3150, the margins remain roughly the same for the clans.

I’m thinking it has something to do with cERPPCs, cERLLs, and cERMLs all being ridiculously good weapons

Scientist Caste: shouldn’t we use a variety of weapon systems to more efficiently exploit enemy weaknesses?
Warrior Caste: PEW PEW

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #38 on: 31 December 2019, 08:58:10 »
Whatever the in- or out-of universe explanation, a high percentage of clan mechs utilize energy weapons. When I did a census of units in megamech a few years ago, I noticed unlike IS units that see a decline in missile weapon percentages overall from 3050-3150, the margins remain roughly the same for the clans.

I’m thinking it has something to do with cERPPCs, cERLLs, and cERMLs all being ridiculously good weapons

Scientist Caste: shouldn’t we use a variety of weapon systems to more efficiently exploit enemy weaknesses?
Warrior Caste: PEW PEW

Were you counting by individual system, by tubes or outgoing damage? Because I wonder if that decline was in stuff like SRM2s and LRM5s while the average tube count stayed relatively intact by way of mounting bigger versions. Since the Clans were introduced with weight-saving tech, it would make sense for their percentage to stay stable, while IS designs took time catching up.

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #39 on: 31 December 2019, 09:14:49 »
It was by individual weapon system as a percentage found on individual variants (including Omni configs) - in other words, a smaller percentage of variants used missiles in 3150 as during the clan invasion. For IS designs, it was across the board. MMLs dug into LRM use but the totals for missile weapons overall went down in relation to energy weapons (eg the ERML and ERPPC that saw an explosive and consistent proliferation  after 3058)

You are correct that the small launchers (excluding the MML3) saw the biggest dropoffs. Iirc most of the SRM-2 use by the dark age came from the superheavy republic tripods
« Last Edit: 31 December 2019, 09:16:22 by Sartris »

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #40 on: 31 December 2019, 14:33:41 »
You are correct that the small launchers (excluding the MML3) saw the biggest dropoffs. Iirc most of the SRM-2 use by the dark age came from the superheavy republic tripods

If only folks would realize the utility of small launchers and different ammo types.  I think that's the main reason the super heavy tripods have them. Load those small SRM launchers with inferno or drag munitions and watch PBIs go away!

Then again, how many people play with alternate munitions and PBIs anyway?
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #41 on: 31 December 2019, 15:13:02 »
If only folks would realize the utility of small launchers and different ammo types.  I think that's the main reason the super heavy tripods have them. Load those small SRM launchers with inferno or drag munitions and watch PBIs go away!

Then again, how many people play with alternate munitions and PBIs anyway?

My meat space games are relatively few in number but almost exclusively mech-only with the sole alternate munition being infernos and even that only uncommonly.

It was by individual weapon system as a percentage found on individual variants (including Omni configs) - in other words, a smaller percentage of variants used missiles in 3150 as during the clan invasion. For IS designs, it was across the board. MMLs dug into LRM use but the totals for missile weapons overall went down in relation to energy weapons (eg the ERML and ERPPC that saw an explosive and consistent proliferation  after 3058)

Yeah, that's about what I'd expected.

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #42 on: 31 December 2019, 19:14:31 »
Even in a mech-only game, those little racks loaded with nonstandard rounds can be very useful. Take smoke rounds, and consistently fire them at every L1 or L2 hex in range. It'll provide cover even a superheavy can hide behind, helping to mitigate an Ares' greatest weaknesses - height and the superheavy to-hit mod.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #43 on: 01 January 2020, 06:31:24 »
It was by individual weapon system as a percentage found on individual variants (including Omni configs) - in other words, a smaller percentage of variants used missiles in 3150 as during the clan invasion. For IS designs, it was across the board. MMLs dug into LRM use but the totals for missile weapons overall went down in relation to energy weapons (eg the ERML and ERPPC that saw an explosive and consistent proliferation  after 3058)

You are correct that the small launchers (excluding the MML3) saw the biggest dropoffs. Iirc most of the SRM-2 use by the dark age came from the superheavy republic tripods

Single large damage weapons are more effective than cluster weapons in more situations. It is why truly enormously damaging weapons like Heavy Gauss Rifles are gimped and MRMs and HAGs clustered.

Clusters come into their own after armor has been ablated but was all know the frustration of sand blasting attacks.

With more and better direct fire weapons becoming available and LRMs not really progressing beyond LRM20s and a vast history of combat experience developed over the last 40 years that the number of launchers per Mech dropped.

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #44 on: 01 January 2020, 10:12:04 »
I mean that makes sense but I think it’s a meta thing that has a logical in-universe contrivance. Dudes making the mechs just used fewer missiles over time.

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #45 on: 01 January 2020, 12:05:26 »
Or . . . it was no longer the longest ranged weapon besides the AC/2 plinker?
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #46 on: 01 January 2020, 12:08:07 »
New weapons like gauss don’t plink. It’s the range and concentrated damage. Obviously the combination of those traits is highly appealing. An extension of the paradigm with more weapons where the longest range did low damage would have not seen as precipitous decline of missile systems

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« Last Edit: 01 January 2020, 12:10:45 by Sartris »

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #47 on: 11 January 2020, 03:07:31 »
It's not really a valid question, is the answer. The devs and anyone else involved with creating new designs and configurations are the reasons that the designs are what they are. Its all fluff, nothing more.

A clan lrm20 is 5 tons, 6 heat, with an average roll of 7 you are hitting with 12 missiles per launcher. Each ton invested is going to net you over twice as many points in damage on average. An er ppc does the same, but generates over twice the heat. A Gauss rifle is only going to net you 25% more damage then the tonnage sunk into the weapon, but with 5 less heat, but has a min range.

Some point to the cluster roll as a reason why. Some are even adding in the concentrated damage of an er ppc or gauss rifle, while suggesting that the single location struck is a good reason to use them over lrms. That thinking is flawed outside of the risk of a headshot. Its flawed because all of the damage is hitting a single location, so if you miss the location that you wanted to hit it means nothing. Hitting a fully armored leg of an assault mech means nothing when you needed to hit the CT for a few points. Since the most likely roll is a 7 the clustered nature of lrms means that you're likely to hit that ct with those clusters. It also means that you avoid the "all or nothing" nature of a 15 point slug.

In all of the games that I played last year, an average of 2 games per month, there has been at least one unit killed by a headshot. Most of those have been gauss rifle slugs to the head, but there have been some that have been hit a few times with smaller weapons, and one srm that killed a pilot by rolling a 2, then 12, then an 8, and I believe its 5 for the pilot on a fresh shadowcat. Do headshots happen? Yup! There is that question if the headcapper is worth it since it does happen, but then again the most clusters you have to roll, the more spins you get to win.

If I am running clan units, the deciding factor of what variants comes down to BV and my view of the unit. I know that clan er ppcs are great and their LPL is OP, except when I use it since that unit is always out of position somehow. I mess with I.S. LRMs and indirect fire so using LRMs without that stupid min range for just a handful of extra BV is an easy weapon choice. I can fire 3 lrm 20s and run with my standard 10 dhs, or i can fire a single er ppc and run before considering how much heat I'm going to build up when i fire another weapon. For 3 tons over the weight of a gauss rifle i can use 3 lrm 20s and average over twice the damage of the GR with the potential of doing up to 4 times the damage. Now a GR and ERPPC combo would be close to the tonnage, heat, and average damage of the 3 lrm 20s. At that point its a matter of dispersion and potential additional damage. With my personal experience and preference, my choice would be the lrm launchers as there is less of a chance of hitting all of the wrong locations and I gain indirect fire on top of it.

One last thing, the clanners don't fight as they say on the box. Either they have no idea what zel is, or they say that they will but declare that they are playing as x clan who doesn't adhere to it unless its to protect themselves. Also, fluff wise, they abandoned it. That means that clanners are not "above" using indirect fire. Being able to hit someone when they cannot hit you is a big bonus. You can have all the 15 slug weapons in the world, but if I can melt your unit with indirect fire before its able to establish LOS against my lrm unit, it means nothing. Post Zel death the clans really should have put more lrms on their units. There should be upgraded LRM carriers, but there isn't any. Why? Because they don't make sense, or because....Devs say so?  :drool:

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #48 on: 11 January 2020, 18:20:18 »
Hitting a fully armored leg of an assault mech means nothing when you needed to hit the CT for a few points. Since the most likely roll is a 7 the clustered nature of lrms means that you're likely to hit that ct with those clusters. It also means that you avoid the "all or nothing" nature of a 15 point slug.

Sure. But how did you dig that hole in the CT in the first place? Dumb luck by rolling a lot of 7s? The difference between the number of CT hits and the number of side torso hits isn't that big - less than 4% per side torso if I've done my math right.

Big guns for digging holes. 1, 2, and, yes, 5 point clusters for exploiting them. That is how to consistently kill something quickly.

edit - well, relatively consistently. Better than having to strip a mech of every bit of armour it has, anyway.
« Last Edit: 11 January 2020, 23:00:29 by Greatclub »

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #49 on: 12 January 2020, 00:41:18 »
Whatever the in- or out-of universe explanation, a high percentage of clan mechs utilize energy weapons. When I did a census of units in megamech a few years ago, I noticed unlike IS units that see a decline in missile weapon percentages overall from 3050-3150, the margins remain roughly the same for the clans.

I’m thinking it has something to do with cERPPCs, cERLLs, and cERMLs all being ridiculously good weapons
I think it's often just easier to throw on most energy weapons than it is other types of weapons.

"Okay, I just kit out my Adder A with the main course: two LRM-20s!  Now what do I do with the last 2 tons?"

Well, if you go with missiles you need to put a minimum of about 2 crits and 1.5 tons on weapons (both the gun itself and ammo), unless you're picking rocket-launchers or one-shots which are less than stellar and fairly short lived.

If you go with ballistics you're either going with puny machine guns with a minimum of about 2 crits and 1 ton on them which has extremely limited anti-mech abilities or a "real" gun, the lightest of which are light ACs.  The "light" clan LB-2X AC itself still needs 4 crits and 6 tons for gun and ammo, which is not exactly something you throw on as an afterthought.

With energy weapons you can get solid weapons at minimal weight and crit investments.  Need a light-weight PBI eater?  Micro and Small Pulse Lasers does the job at 1 ton and 1 crit, and even better than the regular machine gun.  Want something with more punch?  Some flavor of medium laser at 1 or 2 tons and 1 crit fills the role effortlessly.  Heck, even the larger energy weapons like ERLLs (1 crit, 4 tons) can be fit in easier than an AC/2, though you may not have the heat sinks to use it effectively, although that concept seems to be somewhat tertiary to certain designs... *cough* Nova Prime *cough*

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #50 on: 13 January 2020, 10:52:37 »
Thing is, before 3050 the LRM was the long range weapon ignoring the plinker 2 series ACs . . . since that time we start getting ERPPCs, Gauss Rifle, LB-5X, and getting close the UAC/5.  Later we get the Light and Heavy Gauss that also do chunk damage out to range.  Which is why we get a fall off in the number of designs mounting LRMs, its no longer the only system that hits beyond 20 hexes.

I would point out to the OP, we do get a number of mixed tech designs by 3145 that have Clan LRMs mounted- many either Drac or Republic designs IIRC.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #51 on: 13 January 2020, 17:13:28 »
Tabletop performance is just a rough approximation of in-universe performance.  Something may be the best weapon in the game, but that doesn't mean it's the standout best weapon in the story.

In real life, FASA (and later other companies) didn't want the game to become boring where every mech mounts the best weapon every time.  So you get different weapons and different mech weights, even if they aren't the absolute most efficient choice every time.

In the background, the Clans generally plan for short brutal fights where they can resupply quickly afterwards.  They don't use LRMs to their max potential because indirect fire is an afterthought for them.  They don't like doing it.  So yeah Clan LRMs are great, but they aren't necessarily any better than Large Pulse Lasers and ER PPCs.  If you aren't bombing somebody with indirect fire with a really deep ammo bin, then you aren't taking advantage of what LRMs do best.  The Clans tend to use LRMs as long range crit-seekers after the big hole-punchers have opened them up.

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #52 on: 14 January 2020, 06:31:58 »
In the background, the Clans generally plan for short brutal fights where they can resupply quickly afterwards.  They don't use LRMs to their max potential because indirect fire is an afterthought for them.  They don't like doing it.  So yeah Clan LRMs are great, but they aren't necessarily any better than Large Pulse Lasers and ER PPCs.  If you aren't bombing somebody with indirect fire with a really deep ammo bin, then you aren't taking advantage of what LRMs do best.  The Clans tend to use LRMs as long range crit-seekers after the big hole-punchers have opened them up.

But that background doesn't explain why clan LRMs didn't proliferate and replace IS LRMs. If you do want to use indirect fire, Clan LRMs are superior due to weight alone.

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #53 on: 14 January 2020, 07:58:03 »
But that background doesn't explain why clan LRMs didn't proliferate and replace IS LRMs. If you do want to use indirect fire, Clan LRMs are superior due to weight alone.

They do, to an extent, by the dark age. See the Shiro.

In Chaos Campaign clan tech is a maintenance hog that eats obscene amounts of resources to keep repaired. The inner sphere, for whatever (Nonsense handwave) reason can't produce it locally. That, right there, is an excellent reason to keep it off your combat vehicles.

It shouldn't be enough to keep them off given the disparity in performance, but wargame, balance, not-reality.

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #54 on: 14 January 2020, 07:59:09 »
The easy answer is that mixed tech didn’t become a relatively commonplace thing until after 2010. Outside of Solaris units the level 2/3 rules barrier set up by FASA was so strong that they barely used experimental and advanced tech at all (including mixed tech designs). This combined with a virtual moratorium on clan spec gear being produced by IS powers in any appreciable quantities before the jihad means outclassed IS gear is going to remain

3145/50 establishes that the combine and republic both have sufficient access to put cLRMs on a non-zero number of canon designs but it’s going to be a long while before that number represents a significant portion of variants

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #55 on: 14 January 2020, 08:01:37 »
But that background doesn't explain why clan LRMs didn't proliferate and replace IS LRMs. If you do want to use indirect fire, Clan LRMs are superior due to weight alone.

I shudder to imagine the logistics of retooling every LRM factory in the Inner Sphere to that level of sophistication, not to mention having to retrain every mech tech alive.

On the upside, the skyrocketing cost of warfare would likely be very good for the civilian population.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #56 on: 14 January 2020, 08:57:42 »
I don't think it would be that bad. You'd just do it in phases. As the tech progresses, so does the training. You don't have to retrain every tech, you just have to change the curriculum so that new techs get the knowledge (which they're going to need anyway, since Clantech is proliferating, even if you're not necessarily making it in house), and older techs get the knowledge as needed.

It would be the same as some of the fluff of having to train techs on the repair and use of Omnis and Omnipods in the 3050's.

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #57 on: 14 January 2020, 10:48:45 »
I shudder to imagine the logistics of retooling every LRM factory in the Inner Sphere to that level of sophistication, not to mention having to retrain every mech tech alive.

The US Army has been talking about replacing the M2 .50 caliber machine gun (since '33) with a new replacement . . . because its suddenly hard for new troops to perform PMCS on the weapon (head space & timing are HARD!) even though troops have been trained to do that since '33.  One of the requisites is to simplify the design . . . to be fair, it WAS done with the old M60 machine gun vs the new M240.  Usually its not hard to re-train folks to repair simpler versions of a weapon, its retraining the users that sometimes causes a problem b/c of learned reflexes.

Retooling & military procurement . . . well, we can all find the horror stories- and that is where you can reasonably point the finger.  In fact, the interesting one is the Capellan Confederation which seems determined not to use that 'foreign' technology.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #58 on: 14 January 2020, 12:50:02 »
On the upside, the skyrocketing cost of warfare would likely be very good for the civilian population.


Opposite. It's more likely New Avalon will shelve new school program in the outback for the weapons budget.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #59 on: 14 January 2020, 14:23:38 »
Fluff Answer: The Timberwolf was so popular that they made the Mad Cat Mk. 2 & 3, that looks kinda like domination doesn't it?

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #60 on: 14 January 2020, 14:58:57 »
Fluff Answer: The Timberwolf was so popular that they made the Mad Cat Mk. 2 & 3, that looks kinda like domination doesn't it?

'Mad Cat' was SharkFox marketing since neither are really Timber Wolf clones . . . the IV was the real descendant.  But yeah, interesting point about the SharkFoxes selling LRM equipped equipment to the IS- I mean the Ha Otoko makes a interesting point for this discussion.  For the MUL divers, does the Clan LRM equipped Ha Otoko stay in circulation and spread wider than the original?
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #61 on: 14 January 2020, 19:08:16 »
I don't know if it spreads wider than the original but it hits Inner Sphere General by the Early Republic Era.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #62 on: 14 January 2020, 19:22:17 »
I shudder to imagine the logistics of retooling every LRM factory in the Inner Sphere to that level of sophistication, not to mention having to retrain every mech tech alive.

Going with a Watsonian explanation?

The Clans rolled in at the end of a year long tether and setup factories (presumably to produce cLRMs as well) inside of a decade. Post-3060, at least two of those Clans are camped out within Successor States at any given time and their frontline units are exclusively (or near-exclusively) armed with cLRMs. Ergo, retooling factories in BT isn't that difficult as long as you know what you're doing and the people who (empirically) know what they are doing live right there.

The Doylist explanation is better: TPTB didn't want cLRMs supplanting IS LRMs on frontline mechs for reasons of faction flavor. So the cLRMs... just didn't.

I just look at it as, after 50 years, the Clans still have a massive advantage in tonnage compared to IS models.  Why haven't they decided to sacrifice durability etc.in favor of the lighter unit?

Fluff only goes so far, in the face of that kind of advantage.

Fluff is going to be the only explanation. Like you said, a piece of equipment with superiority to the degree that Clan LRMs possess in comparison to IS LRMs should mean obsolescence for the original.
« Last Edit: 15 January 2020, 10:06:07 by Apocal »

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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #63 on: 14 January 2020, 21:52:50 »
Clans had a 6 month trip . . . it was year long for a round trip.

MLO4H, I was talking about the IS LRM equipped vs the Clan LRM equipped.
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Re: Why haven't Clan LRM systems dominated?
« Reply #64 on: 14 January 2020, 22:31:17 »
The purely IS tech one was used by the Lyran Alliance and Combine initially, but after the Jihad only the Combine still uses it.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

 

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