Author Topic: Clan Dropship Question (Read 12201 times)

Hawkeye Jim · « **on:** 02 February 2011, 19:29:26 »

While reading thru the Clan field manuels, it seems that the Clans are very fond of creating supernovas in their clusters. Did they ever design a dropship to carry such a unit intact? I don't see one in any of the material I've read. It would seem to be inefficient to use two dropships every time they wanted to transport one unit.

Moonsword · « **Reply #1 on:** 02 February 2011, 19:36:34 »

The closest I'm aware of is the Horses' Outpost design, which moves a Nova along with a vehicle star.

A Lion could probably fairly readily be modified to do the job, though there are fluff indications that it's not really a satisfactory outcome.

Hawkeye Jim · « **Reply #2 on:** 02 February 2011, 20:18:35 »

Apparently the Lions did not work out for that.

An old Star League combined arms transport, many Lions went with the Exodus Fleet when it left the Inner Sphere. The Clans eventually refitted the ship for their revised unit structure, though they could never manage a refit that could support Elementals, so the design eventually was delegated to use by dezgra and freeborn units. All Lions in service with the Clans are from the Exodus fleet.

Moonsword · « **Reply #3 on:** 02 February 2011, 20:21:41 »

That's the section I'm referring to right there, yeah.

Alan Grant · « **Reply #4 on:** 02 February 2011, 23:24:20 »

Not really, unless you took something like an Overlord-C and modified it.

Hawkeye Jim · « **Reply #5 on:** 03 February 2011, 01:08:52 »

A Sassanid will carry an entire trinary of Elementals, but I don't think it will carry mechs.

Fear Factory · « **Reply #6 on:** 03 February 2011, 02:39:13 »

Quote from: Hawkeye Jim on 03 February 2011, 01:08:52

A Sassanid will carry an entire trinary of Elementals, but I don't think it will carry mechs.

Yep.

Probably better off using multiple dropships to haul your unit around. The closest Dropship based on what you are asking is among Clan Hell's Horses: Outpost.

Hellraiser · « **Reply #7 on:** 03 February 2011, 02:57:50 »

Union and Overlord class ships are known to be modified to carry alternate non-mech forces, a LOT.

See the Outpost write up where the Horses touman is full of modified dropships.

The best option IMHO is to take a Union-C and drop a Star of Mechs to add 2 Stars of Elementals and some Cargo room, WALLA, Super-Nova carrier.

An Overlord could be modified to carry Two SuperNova-Trinaries in the same way.

DaveMac · « **Reply #8 on:** 03 February 2011, 03:37:17 »

One possible reason that the Clans didn't develop a specific dropship to carry a supernova was that it would be immediately obvious whats its cargo was?

Istal_Devalis · « **Reply #9 on:** 03 February 2011, 10:25:19 »

I'm still hoping the Clan develop an equivalent to the Aurora and its modular bays. Considering how popular Omnis are, you'd think they'd leap at a way to do similar reorganizational tricks with their transports. They do need new transport dropships, and not everyone has access to the Mercer. The Broadsword, Union-C, and Leopard-C are getting long in the tooth, and not really suited for today's environment of no safcon and capital missiles/sub-capital weapons.

EDIT: Thinking about it, who do we know that actually has a working Dropship production facility in the IS? Do we have any IS dropship production confirmed beyond the Isegrim and Aesir/Vanir?

Moonsword · « **Reply #10 on:** 03 February 2011, 10:32:02 »

Everyone needs new transport DropShips, honestly. It's a universal problem.

Istal_Devalis · « **Reply #11 on:** 03 February 2011, 10:38:58 »

I'm surprised the Diamond Shark's havent leapt on that, honestly. They came out with the Broadsword to begin with. Partner up with the Nova Cats and do something with that facility on Avon.

Moonsword · « **Reply #12 on:** 03 February 2011, 10:39:43 »

They may well be waiting to see how the market goes in the post-Jihad era.

Hawkeye Jim · « **Reply #13 on:** 03 February 2011, 11:20:52 »

With all the inovation the Clans have made in their ground forces, you'd think they would want to redo their delivery systems just as much. Apparently not.

Moonsword · « **Reply #14 on:** 03 February 2011, 11:24:36 »

Aerospace transportation isn't a high priority for most Clans. Several were beginning to pick at the problem in TRO3067 (Spirits, Horses, and Vipers), then the Jihad blew up in everyone's faces. Notably, the only new transport IC in that whole mess is the Aurora, which was already in development anyway.

None of this should be taken as an indication that I don't want to see some new developments along these lines, I do. I'm just trying to explain why we're not seeing them yet.

Hellraiser · « **Reply #15 on:** 03 February 2011, 12:30:31 »

The IC problem is the clans themselves.

Dropships are filled w/ techs not Warriors.
Safecon pretty much means you don't need a massive gun boat either.
Lastly if you are denied Safecon, which seems rare, then you have your massive Warships w/ Trinaries of Clan Fighters to clear a path for you.

Better to have a Tank (Warship) clear a path for you than try to arm & armor your Bus (Dropship).
At least that is the way they look at it, and I do sort of agree to a limited extent.

ShadowRaven · « **Reply #16 on:** 03 February 2011, 13:32:29 »

Though, one would think that with the Invasion they would have learned that Safcon is not always an option, and warships aren't as well. Then came the Jihad, where that was taken to a whole new level, with Suicide Jumpships and other nastiness

Hellraiser · « **Reply #17 on:** 03 February 2011, 13:37:32 »

Quote from: ShadowRaven on 03 February 2011, 13:32:29

Then came the Jihad, where that was taken to a whole new level, with Suicide Jumpships and other nastiness

This is true but your not going to make a dropship immune to most of those issues.

Your best bet, IMHO, is to make dropships Fast, Well Armored, and cloaked in AMS.
Weapons are of limited viability, better to just load up on fighters and let them do the shooting.

ShadowRaven · « **Reply #18 on:** 03 February 2011, 13:47:52 »

No, they won't be imune, but that whole new aproach is something that those who design Dropships in the clans are going to need to take into account. Not the Suicide Jumpships. No one but the WoB is likely to use that kind of nutbar tactic, but attacks from Pocket Warships, and getting shot at with Sub-Cap's on the way in. Personally, if I where the clan designers, I would switch away from big troop carriers, to smaller faster ones with only a star of mechs or such on each. With Fighter Spam, and a lot of dropships comeing in fast, I see a better chance of getting to the ground, at least with the forces for secureing a beachhead LZ

Hellraiser · « **Reply #19 on:** 03 February 2011, 14:16:36 »

Quote from: ShadowRaven on 03 February 2011, 13:47:52

Personally, if I where the clan designers, I would switch away from big troop carriers, to smaller faster ones with only a star of mechs or such on each. With Fighter Spam, and a lot of dropships comeing in fast, I see a better chance of getting to the ground, at least with the forces for secureing a beachhead LZ

I totally want to agree with you except for one thing.
The whole "jumpships is rare & docking collars is limited" thing.

Personally I would use Colossus-C type things for troop transports but surround them with Titans to clear the path.
And it would be a heavy ratio of Titans to the Colossi.
An Invader w/ 3 collars would be 2 CVs and 1 troop ship and I don't actually think that is enough but its what I would do for balance.

ShadowRaven · « **Reply #20 on:** 03 February 2011, 14:19:11 »

Jumpships generally are not rare in the clans. Maybe more so now then they where, but whole planetary invasions are on the rareish side these days too.

Sid · « **Reply #21 on:** 03 February 2011, 14:43:34 »

Quote from: ShadowRaven on 03 February 2011, 14:19:11

Jumpships generally are not rare in the clans. Maybe more so now then they where, but whole planetary invasions are on the rareish side these days too.

Not only this, but the Clans bid down, remember.

While the Clans may tend to organize their forces into Super Novas, it's unlikely they'd actually need to transport an entire super nova at once- Galaxy Commanders bid away parts of their Galaxies, then Star Colonels bid away parts of their clusters and so on. Prior to the invasion, I can't imagine cases where entire clusters fought together in a single trial.

Even then, the Clans don't have that many planets anyway, so it's not as if they have to transport them far.

And, as some one mentioned previously, there's also the issue of 'safcon' where the attackers can land without being fired upon. Who cares if your unit is split across several ships when they're all allowed to land safely and join up again before the trial begins?

Moonsword · « **Reply #22 on:** 03 February 2011, 14:45:47 »

Relying on safcon is a bad idea - the Vipers specifically built the Mercer in response to an expectation they wouldn't receive safcon. At the very least, a lot of the DropShips need to receive armor upgrades, even at the cost of some of the weapons if necessary. Unfortunately that's a complicated, expensive process that requires a yard, meaning it's a luxury some Clans may not have.

Sid · « **Reply #23 on:** 03 February 2011, 14:58:52 »

Quote from: Moonsword on 03 February 2011, 14:45:47

Relying on safcon is a bad idea -

A lot of things the Clans do are bad ideas.

Doesn't change the fact that they did them, or that they were stagnant for a couple of centuries.

Moonsword · « **Reply #24 on:** 03 February 2011, 15:00:48 »

Safcon wasn't as much of an issue back then. Now, on the other hand, with primarily IS enemies to consider, they're increasingly unlikely to get it.

Istal_Devalis · « **Reply #25 on:** 03 February 2011, 15:23:30 »

The reality for Clan transports is that they cant rely on safcon anymore, not even from the other Clans. They're fairly thin skinned and a definite weak link in offensive operations. Now, they dont need to go the route of the various assault dropships we've seen, but they ARE going to get attacked by antishipping missiles and fighters. They need to be armed and armored accordingly.

They might not be the most glorious arm of the Touman, but I daresay they're likely the most important and vulnerable ATM. The Clans need to start realising this.

Sid · « **Reply #26 on:** 03 February 2011, 16:23:52 »

Quote from: Moonsword on 03 February 2011, 15:00:48

Safcon wasn't as much of an issue back then. Now, on the other hand, with primarily IS enemies to consider, they're increasingly unlikely to get it.

Sure. That may be the case now, but the Clans are hardly ones to adapt quickly or be very forward thinking. Cray has speculated on how their society is very inefficient and counter-intuitive for growth (A clan that spends resources on expanding to a new colony would then lose it to a Trial of Possession from another Clan)

The Clans are, afterall, the same ones that when they arrived in the I.S expected the Houses to know what batchall meant, to declare the forces they were defending, and to fight in open, honourable, trials.

For about 200 years the Clans stagnated- the Elemental was created in the 29th Century, and no new suits emerged until after Operation Klondike. Ditto for new weapons such as Heavy Lasers, ATMs and HAGs. Even the Jaguars' Protomechs were only designed out of desperation.

The OP was asking why the Clans didn't have transportation available for their Supernovas. I provided several points why they hadn't needed them before. Do they need them now? Probably.

Doesn't mean the Clans know that. They aren't exactly the...greatest at looking ahead. That includes the Scorpions and Nova Cats.

Hawkeye Jim · « **Reply #27 on:** 03 February 2011, 17:18:41 »

They may bid away assets before a battle, but they still need to transport the whole unit. If they have a specific goal in mind, they might assign only a supernova to the task, perhaps with aerospace support, but only a merchant class for jumping. They would have to put everything on just two dropships.

Even in the Clans, there is a limit to how many jumpships and dropships they have availiable. If they are assaulting a number of targets at the same time, they may need as few dropships at each spot as they can manage.

Maelwys · « **Reply #28 on:** 03 February 2011, 19:52:51 »

Actually, if you think about the Clan system is pretty wasteful with regards to fuel. Pack up your DropShips with your cluster. Transport said cluster to JumpShip. Jump. Now, you can save some fuel if you issue your batchall from the Jumppoint, but if not, you have to spend the fuel to ship the entire Cluster to the planet. Now you get there, issue your batchall, your opponent lets you know that they're defending with a Star of `Mechs, and a Star of Elementals.

Unless you're pretty lucky, you probably don't have a carrier for just a `Mech Star and an Elemental Star. If you're really unlucky, you were short on docking collars and took the biggest DropShips you could find...and you're now landing that Overlord-C and a Sassinid, just to unload a single `Mech Star and Elemental Star.

Am I missing something here? :)

Alan Grant · « **Reply #29 on:** 03 February 2011, 19:58:36 »

Basically

"Should they have a dropship capable of carrying a Supernova?"

Yes

"Do they?"

No

This can go in circles about the "why that is". But regardless, it doesn't exist.

We know that Clan Hell's Horses have been modifying Union-Cs and Overlord-Cs for years to suit their needs (fluff mention included with the Outpost Dropship). So in all likelihood, if they have been using the same dropship to transport a full supernova, it's been an Overlord-C modified for that purpose.