Author Topic: Dealing with Assaults  (Read 7160 times)

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #30 on: 02 April 2020, 09:26:10 »
My question for the OP is: What force are you putting together to defend against the big stuff?

More specifically, is this a force you're putting together to stop your opponent, or is this a force already existing that you're in command of? If you have a choice, yeah, the above tomes of advice are good advice (speeeed!). If you're being told that this is the force you have available- a garrison force defending against an attacker, for example- and you don't have any changes you can make, that's different. In war, you don't always get a chance to field an optimal force against the enemy. (My granddad had some stories about Bastogne, for example...)

Assuming you get to build a force, yeah, what you have just doesn't have the mobility to do the job- you're trying to take on Mechs twice your own weight in a slugfest, and their armor simply makes that a losing proposition. Speed is life against heavier opponents- if you can get it, do it. Spiders are a longtime favorite for fans, because it moves like a ferret on meth, but your bare minimum should aim to be 5/8/5. Jump jets are a key, to me- be able to disengage if the going gets tough. That means that while units like the Panther or Enforcer are still useful, they shouldn't be relied on as your centerpiece- they're just not able to change positions enough to ensure their safety. 4/6 units without jump jets (like the Centurion) are as good as speed bumps- at least aim, if you can, to get long-range variants of those Mechs out there so they can fire sooner before being overrun. My advice for units to explore include the Phoenix Hawk, Clint (seriously), Trebuchet (if you have a large map), Jenner, and Griffin.

If you're just stuck with a force with no alternatives to swap out because that's what's on hand per the scenario/campaign requirements, that's rough- your opponent has huge advantages here. Terrain is always helpful, but with your speed issues he has the same advantages you do overall. Your best bet is to group-fire on one or the other (preferably the Crab) and hope you can put it down with overwhelming force before dealing with the other one, but that's a rough proposition- better than any other ideas that come to mind, but still not fun. In war, sometimes you have a losing proposition and can't do more than your best, but the force you listed above is in for a rough day- which might be realistic, but not all that fun as a game. If they're on the attack, see about the possibilities of putting down minefields? In particular, vibro-bombs mean your lighter units can walk right over the top of them, while his beefy monsters are finding the ground exploding with every step. They honestly don't do a great deal of damage usually, but if he gets paranoid about where he's walking it might give a little more of an advantage. Thunder LRMs are a later invention, but also handy- he can see where they land, but that can be handy itself- he knows where he can't safely walk, and watches avenues of advance slowly disappear.
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Getz

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #31 on: 02 April 2020, 10:24:24 »
I have lost count of the number of atlas and assault mechs that I have destroyed with just two of my wolfhounds over 35 years of playing Battletech... Speed is usually the best counter to assault mechs.

And I've lost count of the number of times I've squashed a cocky light flat before it did anything of note, but let's not turn this into a forum for boasting about our "l33t sk1lz."  Certainly taking down assault mechs with lights equipment requires finesse, but also luck - it only takes one lucky round of shooting from the assault mech and your Wolfhound is dead meat - and in actual fact the Wolfhound is not a good pick for the job.  It might be durable for a light but that won't save you against something nearly three times your mass, meanwhile it can't jump and it isn't quite fast enough to reliably generate a high target modifier under all circumstances.
« Last Edit: 02 April 2020, 10:26:26 by Getz »

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #32 on: 02 April 2020, 10:41:28 »
Turn the pilots into jelly. Grab two spiders or ostscouts (RS with hands) jump into rear hex of the big nasty and give em a couple of punches. Next round jump out with one and jump back in with the other one and punch two more times. 1 in 6 for a head hit with a punch. Once you land a few head hits start kicking them to knock them down and score a free pilot hit for falling. I had a table-mate that did this ALL the time. Takes some patience but when it works it's spectacular

If you're jumping around fishing for head hits it'd be more accurate to say that you'll have a (roughly) 1 in 22 chance of landing a punch most of the time.
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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #33 on: 02 April 2020, 10:43:34 »
Eh, a Wolfhound 1 against a Atlas 7-D stands a good chance if it stays out 8-10 hexes from the Atlas and keeps its movement up.  It basically becomes a LL vs LRM20 duel 10-15 hexes, and is best to keep it there if you can.  Dip below 10 hexes and while the WLF may have 3 more MLs to add into the fight, the Atlas gets its AC/20, pair of MLs and SRMs.  Biggest problem the WLF has is maintaining that distance, if the Atlas player can pin the WLF against a terrain feature or map edge then it can press into brawl.

JHB has good points- if its what you are being required to use then what you can do shifts.  I think the biggest realization you should make is, Meds vs Assaults you are going to lose mechs.  Accept it and do not shy away from it- don't needlessly throw them away but realize your best play might be the sacrifice of a mech for an advantage.
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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #34 on: 02 April 2020, 13:44:43 »
I've got another question to add to JadeHellbringer's above - what maps do you have access to/use?

The tactics if you're fighting them in open terrain are a bit different than if you're throwing down on rolling hills or scattered woods

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #35 on: 02 April 2020, 14:12:13 »
And I've lost count of the number of times I've squashed a cocky light flat before it did anything of note, but let's not turn this into a forum for boasting about our "l33t sk1lz."  Certainly taking down assault mechs with lights equipment requires finesse, but also luck - it only takes one lucky round of shooting from the assault mech and your Wolfhound is dead meat - and in actual fact the Wolfhound is not a good pick for the job.  It might be durable for a light but that won't save you against something nearly three times your mass, meanwhile it can't jump and it isn't quite fast enough to reliably generate a high target modifier under all circumstances.

I disagree.
Actually, against an Atlas-7D,  a Wolfhound is GREAT for the Job.
I normally use 3 myself but the fact that he did it with 2 is even better.

6/9 v/s 3/5 is MORE than enough to make this a LL v/s LRM fight. 
And there isn't enough LRM ammo to take out more than a single WolfHound.
Heck, if they make sure they have a really high TMM when they dart into 9 Hexes they can probably get the Atlas to waste some shots with the AC20.

Your going to need to be fighting on a single hex map to in order to get cornered by the Atlas.
Any sort of terrain that will block fire long enough for the Wolfie to turn & run means that Atlas is just not going to have good to hit them ever.

8 point hits aren't much to an Atlas but over a couple hours of playing, its going to stack up & then he goes down.

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #36 on: 02 April 2020, 14:34:16 »
OP mentioned Crabs as well, that would change the dynamic somewhat if the OF i more than slow moving gun boats.
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Getz

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #37 on: 02 April 2020, 16:58:12 »
I disagree.
Actually, against an Atlas-7D,  a Wolfhound is GREAT for the Job.
I normally use 3 myself but the fact that he did it with 2 is even better.

6/9 v/s 3/5 is MORE than enough to make this a LL v/s LRM fight. 
And there isn't enough LRM ammo to take out more than a single WolfHound.
Heck, if they make sure they have a really high TMM when they dart into 9 Hexes they can probably get the Atlas to waste some shots with the AC20.

Your going to need to be fighting on a single hex map to in order to get cornered by the Atlas.
Any sort of terrain that will block fire long enough for the Wolfie to turn & run means that Atlas is just not going to have good to hit them ever.

8 point hits aren't much to an Atlas but over a couple hours of playing, its going to stack up & then he goes down.

Not all assault mechs are Atlas 7Ds.  I wasn't limiting myself to such restricted context.  Try it against an Atlas RS or Banshee 3S or Marauder II and you'll quickly learn the limitations of a Wolfhound.  Even a King Crab gets to match you large laser for large laser.

Also, nobody every said the Assault is alone in this fight - in fact the OP was specifically talking about fighting lance and reinforced lance sized battles.  To be honest, when someone tries to duel one of my assault mechs with a high mobility light I usually just have the assault ignore it and let one of the medium mechs I'll also have chase the nuisance away...
« Last Edit: 02 April 2020, 16:59:47 by Getz »

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #38 on: 02 April 2020, 17:31:42 »

Also, nobody every said the Assault is alone in this fight -

Nor did I say that my two Wolfhounds were alone against the assaults I destroyed either... Yes, I did take down an Atlas 7D with two Wolfhounds a couple of times, but the other times I had more than just my Wolfhounds.

I did exactly what Hellraiser said except when the Atlas moved into light trees and I ran behind it with both Wolfhounds. Then after that, kept the fight at close range until I cored the Atlas from behind. Yes, I did lose one Wolfhound, but the second one delivered the killing blow...

So what do you use to take down an Atlas or an assault mech Getz?

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #39 on: 02 April 2020, 20:13:00 »
Moderator Notice...  C:-)


Okay, I’m putting my nose in here and it takes a lot to summon my attention.  This is beginning to get a bit too much like one upping the other to prove a point that doesn’t necessarily have a single right answer.  If you want to compare tactics or small unit composition to down assault mechs, that’s great. However, if I or the other Mods start feeling it’s getting personal or off track we will be less than understanding from this point forward.  Go back to the thread topic remembering to be civil and constructive in your discussion here.

 C:-)

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #40 on: 02 April 2020, 23:47:40 »
One more thing to consider is you have a good number of Jump capable mechs. Considerable advantage if your fighting where there is hills, valleys and such.
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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #41 on: 03 April 2020, 08:04:44 »
 To avoid leaving you on a completely glib note, there were Inner Sphere machines that performed better against the Clans than others. I have always had descent luck with the Perseus, to give one example. Clan mechs often lacked the armor that would have given them supremacy, which is what allowed for the hard and fast approach in the first place. In bv balanced games, they also have obscenely high bv to deal with (Many players do not play bv, I am indifferent myself). Inner Sphere mechs that were lighter on armor tended to pay a cost as Clan mechs tended hit harder, with greater accuracy, and range. Keep in mind that XL engines will allow you to hit harder, but you will be much more vulnerable.

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #42 on: 03 April 2020, 09:20:47 »
 Earlier, you mentioned the Behemoth/Stone Rhino as a mech of interest. The Stone Rhino lacks speed, and uses clan jump jets to attain minor mobility. It is however a brick, with Gauss, and Large Pulse capabilities. Those Pulse Lasers allow it to take out smaller mechs that try to hide behind mobility, but you can overrun it. Its Gauss Rifles are torso mounted, and therefore vulnerable to flankers. Its SFE makes it less vulnerable to hits.

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #43 on: 03 April 2020, 09:33:24 »
 I mentioned earlier that many Clan mechs sacrifice armor. The Naga, Gargoyle, Warhawk, and Executioner would be the primary examples of assaults you will run into from the Clan lineup, but all of the above are dangerous when fielded by an experienced clan player. Three of the four assaults in TRO3050 have lower armor, with weapon configurations that range from frightful to strange. Some cases of weapon placement can also be counterproductive for players using them.

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #44 on: 03 April 2020, 10:14:59 »
whenever this topic comes up i'm reminded of the eurogamer article on tips for Doom 1


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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #45 on: 03 April 2020, 10:45:05 »
I mentioned earlier that many Clan mechs sacrifice armor. The Naga, Gargoyle, Warhawk, and Executioner would be the primary examples of assaults you will run into from the Clan lineup, but all of the above are dangerous when fielded by an experienced clan player. Three of the four assaults in TRO3050 have lower armor, with weapon configurations that range from frightful to strange. Some cases of weapon placement can also be counterproductive for players using them.

The Naga might be considered short on armor . . . others not so much.  The Executioner has weird armor placement . . . take 10 points off each leg to the side torsos and its fine for overall tonnage of armor, just where it is results in the armor problem.
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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #46 on: 03 April 2020, 11:09:30 »
The one major problem with posting any definitive answers to the OP's question is that the answer varies considerably in the 3050s from what would work in 3025.  Clan weapons, pulse lasers, and targeting computers in the later era can reduce the effectiveness of fast Lights and Mediums, making them far less effective against heavier opponents with all the right tools to engage them.  In 3025, Speed = Armor.  In 3050 or later, that may or may not be true.

Gunnery skills also play a big role in determining what will or will not work, because if the Assault pilot's gunnery is good enough, you may not be able to achieve a movement modifier high enough to avoid being hit by his or her main guns and still have a shot in return.

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #47 on: 03 April 2020, 16:09:45 »
So what do you use to take down an Atlas or an assault mech Getz?

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #48 on: 03 April 2020, 17:08:11 »
The Naga might be considered short on armor . . . others not so much.  The Executioner has weird armor placement . . . take 10 points off each leg to the side torsos and its fine for overall tonnage of armor, just where it is results in the armor problem.

The problem the clans have with armor is that when playing with any kind of balance, they have either fewer or smaller mechs, and both mean less ability to soak damage in general. You can't tank when playing clan, it's either DPS race or mobile avoidance.

The clan assaults have enough armor, with, as mentioned, exception of the side armor on the Executioner.

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #49 on: 03 April 2020, 20:02:46 »
I mentioned earlier that many Clan mechs sacrifice armor. The Naga, Gargoyle, Warhawk, and Executioner would be the primary examples of assaults you will run into from the Clan lineup, but all of the above are dangerous when fielded by an experienced clan player. Three of the four assaults in TRO3050 have lower armor, with weapon configurations that range from frightful to strange. Some cases of weapon placement can also be counterproductive for players using them.

I'm not sure the Naga, a rare Artillery mech is ever one that would be a prime example of something IS mechs would face.

I'm also not sure what you are taking about with 3/4 of the of the 3050 assaults being short of armor.
Executioner = 87.6% of Max  (That 12.4% missing comes from the Side Torsos as mentioned but its still packing the Clan Ferro equivilent to over 16 tons of standard armor.)
Gargoyle = 89% Max.  Its 1.5 tons short of max for it size.  Hardly low armor compared to IS 80 ton mechs like the Zeus & Victor that are 4 tons short.
Warhawk = 98% of Max.   I'm not sure how this one could EVER be considered Low armor.
DireWolf = 99% of Max.  It can only hold 3 more points so I'm guessing anything more than 1/4 ton short of max is Low to you?

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #50 on: 03 April 2020, 20:09:04 »
You can't tank when playing clan, it's either DPS race or mobile avoidance.

I disagree.
I love to tank when playing w/ clan assaults.
I will happily NOT take the amazing T-Wolf or Gargoyle & will load up on DireWolf-A & KingFisher-C w/ maybe an odd Warhawk-A.
Let alone glorious 2nd line machines like the Stone Rhino & WarHawk-IIC.  Yum Yum.
Just park them on a small hill & let the enemy try to dislodge them.

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #51 on: 03 April 2020, 20:13:00 »
there are plenty of max armor clan assaults that will absolutely accept whatever incoming fire you've got and absolutely ruin your day in return

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #52 on: 03 April 2020, 20:28:42 »
War Hawk IIC?

The Dire Wolf A, and other cLPL loaded designs, are DPS Race machines.
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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #53 on: 03 April 2020, 21:08:49 »
semantics, i guess. if it's not easily killable i see it as a tank. if it kills fast, that's a bonus

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #54 on: 03 April 2020, 21:33:02 »
Just some things based on my experience.

1) Use fast units that can flank them or take out their rear armor.

2) Use kicks to knock them down, don't underestimate the power of the punch (head armor is the same for everyone, all pilots are squishy).

3) Pack big guns and crit-seekers.
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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #55 on: 03 April 2020, 21:33:38 »
Warhawk = 98% of Max.   I'm not sure how this one could EVER be considered Low armor.

I flipped the Warhawk's armor line with that of the Supernova. Easy to do.

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #56 on: 03 April 2020, 21:37:14 »

Gargoyle = 89% Max.  Its 1.5 tons short of max for it size.  Hardly low armor compared to IS 80 ton mechs like the Zeus & Victor that are 4 tons short.

The Zeus is not seen as a cavalry mech, and performs poorly in brawls. It is not a mech I would want to compare another with. The Victor is a super heavy bully that barely outguns a Hunchback. In the right environment those Jump Jets shine, and they do add to hit mods, but it was never seen as in the norm armor wise. Both mechs have poor armor, and are easily overrun without lancemates (That AC/20 is annoying, but not enough to win on its own).
« Last Edit: 03 April 2020, 21:40:55 by Minemech »

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #57 on: 03 April 2020, 21:43:18 »

DireWolf = 99% of Max.  It can only hold 3 more points so I'm guessing anything more than 1/4 ton short of max is Low to you?
No one claimed that the Dire Wolf had low armor.

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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #58 on: 03 April 2020, 22:06:11 »
War Hawk IIC?

The Dire Wolf A, and other cLPL loaded designs, are DPS Race machines.

WarHawk, WarHammer,  4/6 clan assault with multiple PPCs & lots of Armor.

Why would it be a DPS race machine when there are so many better weapons that do more damage for the tonnage?
ERPPC-c,  MPL-c, ERMLc,  ERLL-c
None of which it has.

The LPL is one of my least favorite things about the DW-A.
I just like it for the heat curve and 3rd ton of Gauss ammo.
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Re: Dealing with Assaults
« Reply #59 on: 03 April 2020, 22:23:05 »
I flipped the Warhawk's armor line with that of the Supernova. Easy to do.

Which would give it the armor of a Battlemaster.   I'm not seeing a Battlemaster as being "Low" armored.



No one claimed that the Dire Wolf had low armor.

You claimed 3/4 had low armor.

I'm saying None of them has Low armor.

The Hellbringer has low armor.    The Rifleman/Warhammer have Low Armor.

Having max armor for a mech only 5-10 tons less isn't low, its standard.


(That AC/20 is annoying, but not enough to win on its own).
I think its GREAT at winning on its own.

In 3025 I used to have fun killing Awesomes with it on bog standard BT-2E maps.
Use the little cover they have to close & then proceed to dismantle it under the range of the PPCs.

Its in lance battles where it had issues because THEN you didn't have the ability to dodge just one opponent.
Much like trying to backstab with a FireMoth-H,  it sounds great on paper,  and works against a single opponent, but when there is a lance out there its a lot harder to pull that move off & survive to do it a 2nd time.
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