Author Topic: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn  (Read 135910 times)

Stormlion1

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1050 on: 07 October 2023, 20:38:34 »
If I remember she was a crackerjack mechwarrior. Topnotch and a great leader. But she was also hot-headed and prone to the occasional bad decision.
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StCptMara

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1051 on: 07 October 2023, 23:28:27 »
If I remember she was a crackerjack mechwarrior. Topnotch and a great leader. But she was also hot-headed and prone to the occasional bad decision.

Ever read the fight from her perspective that was in the Twilight of the Clans books? Where she just could not *grasp* the Inner Sphere tacts, and her 'mech was disabled because she fought and gave orders based on "how dare they!" not "Take out this threat!"
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Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1052 on: 08 October 2023, 10:08:27 »
Ever read the fight from her perspective that was in the Twilight of the Clans books? Where she just could not *grasp* the Inner Sphere tacts, and her 'mech was disabled because she fought and gave orders based on "how dare they!" not "Take out this threat!"

She had that problem all thru her career it seems.

But I think that in the end with the Vipers murdering everything in sight and their own Annihilation at the door the Blood Spirits thought maybe one last hurrah could be had and the ‘best’ Khan they’ve had in years could lead them out of it once again.

Gaiiten

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1053 on: 08 October 2023, 10:43:27 »
But I think that in the end with the Vipers murdering everything in sight and their own Annihilation at the door the Blood Spirits thought maybe one last hurrah could be had and the ‘best’ Khan they’ve had in years could lead them out of it once again.

Then the Spirits did elect her again for their Khan, they were not threatened with annihilation. They simply had not learnt not understood how bad a leader Karianna Schmitt was.
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Shin_Fenris

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1054 on: 09 October 2023, 11:50:15 »
Then the Spirits did elect her again for their Khan, they were not threatened with annihilation. They simply had not learnt not understood how bad a leader Karianna Schmitt was.

I enjoy Karianna Schmitt as a character. Spirits in general always seemed to have really solid tactical commanders & incredibly poor strategic ones. Or maybe they just didn't have the word count required for nuance. I dunno. But I'd say the reelection would be more like the espirit de corps that the Spirits were named for - to the average Bloodnamed Clanner, I'm sure she didn't seem like a "bad" leader, since she held them all together in the face of adversity & whatnot. Given that her actions led to said adversity is kinda moot in that mindset.
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tassa_kay

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1055 on: 09 October 2023, 13:30:01 »
I enjoy Karianna Schmitt as a character. Spirits in general always seemed to have really solid tactical commanders & incredibly poor strategic ones. Or maybe they just didn't have the word count required for nuance. I dunno. But I'd say the reelection would be more like the espirit de corps that the Spirits were named for - to the average Bloodnamed Clanner, I'm sure she didn't seem like a "bad" leader, since she held them all together in the face of adversity & whatnot. Given that her actions led to said adversity is kinda moot in that mindset.

Agreed, and to add to this, I think it’s relevant that Karianna Schmitt has such an uncanny resemblance to their founding Khan, both physically and temperamentally, and that’s a powerful thing in a society that’s so big on symbolism.
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HobbesHurlbut

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1056 on: 09 October 2023, 18:08:14 »
Fellow Spirits, I need your help with naming a VTOL transport that carry a single ProtoMech. It move very fast.
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Wolf72

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1057 on: 09 October 2023, 18:26:26 »
w/o getting into design territory, is it cargo or lift hoist based?

Call it "Blood Hawk" simple, cheesy, fits.  Or look up some mythological (real world) god/dess' of air names.  Sorry but that wasn't quick.

Blood Sparrow?
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HobbesHurlbut

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1058 on: 09 October 2023, 18:30:03 »
w/o getting into design territory, is it cargo or lift hoist based?

Call it "Blood Hawk" simple, cheesy, fits.  Or look up some mythological (real world) god/dess' of air names.  Sorry but that wasn't quick.

Blood Sparrow?
Lift Hoist based
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Wolf72

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1059 on: 09 October 2023, 18:32:32 »
deploy 5 vtol for 5 PM, nice. 
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HobbesHurlbut

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1060 on: 09 October 2023, 18:43:46 »
At 14/21 movement profile. When you need to reinforce someone in a hurry but they're not engaged in fighting, deploy the VTOL lifters instead of a big dropship or the precious Arcadia Proto Carrier DropShip.
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HobbesHurlbut

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1061 on: 09 October 2023, 19:43:28 »
A friend suggested the name Phooka/Pooka/Puca for the fast transport.
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Wolf72

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1062 on: 09 October 2023, 20:58:02 »
isn't that the name of one of the WoB LAMs?
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HobbesHurlbut

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1063 on: 09 October 2023, 21:18:26 »
isn't that the name of one of the WoB LAMs?
not a canon one that i can see.
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tassa_kay

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1064 on: 09 October 2023, 21:29:22 »
The Pwwka (the WoB LAM) is indeed an alternate (probably more accurate) spelling of Pooka.

Also, aren't pretty much all Clan vehicles named after war gods?
« Last Edit: 09 October 2023, 21:31:02 by tassa_kay »
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Crimson Dynamo

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1065 on: 09 October 2023, 21:36:24 »
I enjoy Karianna Schmitt as a character. Spirits in general always seemed to have really solid tactical commanders & incredibly poor strategic ones.

Not sure I agree here. The Spirits' famed frugality with their limited resources over long decades, successfully prosecute lengthy defensive campaigns in adherence with need to conserve resources, give up territory when necessary, forge limited alliances when beneficial, and heavy emphasis on high-quality training all speak to a generally good strategic grasp.

I think it's very easy to question that strategic ability considering the interference in the Burrock Absorption, and I used to be very critical of that decision, but now I look at it as the Spirits almost had to try. Their fiercely, deeply hated rivals about to be laid low by some other schmucks? If Karianna Schmitt didn't attempt to intervene on her terms, I think it likely she would expect somebody (potentially lots of somebodies) to come for her job and then intervene against the Adders and Burrocks. If she didn't, someone else would, in other words.

Fellow Spirits, I need your help with naming a VTOL transport that carry a single ProtoMech. It move very fast.

The Seelie. Scottish folklore term for fairies, something quick and definitely carrying something mischievous.
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tassa_kay

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1066 on: 09 October 2023, 22:04:03 »
Not sure I agree here. The Spirits' famed frugality with their limited resources over long decades, successfully prosecute lengthy defensive campaigns in adherence with need to conserve resources, give up territory when necessary, forge limited alliances when beneficial, and heavy emphasis on high-quality training all speak to a generally good strategic grasp.

Exactly. We saw plenty of that both before the Absorption War, and afterwards in FM:U and WoR. Granted, they made some mistakes, but pretty much all of the Clans have made poor tactical and strategic decisions throughout their existences. Even the Adders aren't exempt from this, as we saw with the resurgent Burrocks.

Quote
I think it's very easy to question that strategic ability considering the interference in the Burrock Absorption, and I used to be very critical of that decision, but now I look at it as the Spirits almost had to try. Their fiercely, deeply hated rivals about to be laid low by some other schmucks? If Karianna Schmitt didn't attempt to intervene on her terms, I think it likely she would expect somebody (potentially lots of somebodies) to come for her job and then intervene against the Adders and Burrocks. If she didn't, someone else would, in other words.

A few things here to add to your point.

First, as you said, the Spirits simply had to try. The Burrocks had spent almost the entirety of their mutual existence going out of their way to prey on the Spirits, and that's after their failed attempt to get them Annihilated for having the audacity to suggest trying to find another way to deal with the Wolverines. FM:CC mentions that the feud had unbalanced both Clans, and we all saw just how bitter and hateful (and rightly so, IMO) the Spirits had become. Of course they would jump on the chance to end the Burrocks for good.

On top of that, you have the Grand Council assigning the Absorption to the Adders, which is technically against Clan law anyway, not giving the Spirits (or even the rest of the Clans) the opportunity to bid for the right. There's no way you can convince me that the Adders' nine-out-of-ten Galaxies used in the Absorption (which fits the Adders' conservative bidding practices and makes perfect sense for them) was the lowest bid on the table. The Spirits had a legitimate grievance here.

Also, the Spirits had no way to predict that the Burrocks and Adders would ally in order to repel them. That's simply not typical Clan thinking; they're very much a dog-eat-dog society, and it was absolutely unprecedented that the Burrocks would, by-and-large, submit willingly to the Adders instead of fighting for their right to exist. Before that point, that's just not something we've ever seen from the Clans, who we all watched sabotage tf out each other during REVIVAL.

Then there's the elephant in the room: the Adders themselves were in this very same position when the Jaguars were given the right to Absorb Clan Mongoose. Per WoK, they were outraged when the Jaguars were given the right of Absorption despite their own long-running and costly feud, and they launched pre-emptive attacks of their own. It's only because Jaguars gonna Jaguar that the same thing didn't happen to the Adders when they decided to interfere in the Mongoose Absorption.
« Last Edit: 09 October 2023, 22:12:36 by tassa_kay »
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Shin_Fenris

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1067 on: 10 October 2023, 05:11:35 »
Not sure I agree here. The Spirits' famed frugality with their limited resources over long decades, successfully prosecute lengthy defensive campaigns in adherence with need to conserve resources, give up territory when necessary, forge limited alliances when beneficial, and heavy emphasis on high-quality training all speak to a generally good strategic grasp.

Hm. We'll have to agree to disagree, I think. Given what little we're shown of BS commanders, it reads like, more often than not, they're beast at Cluster actions or smaller (tactical) but anything involving a full Galaxy or multiple Galaxies coordinating (strategic), not so much. You really cannot take away their actions during the Burrock Absorption and say "hey, other than this, they were brilliant!" 'cause that's one of the few really pertinent accounts we have to CBS doing literally anything in canon lore.

Also, forging limited alliances is more political than strategic in the sense I'm referring, something the Spirits were definitely not great at outside of the Mandrills and the very, very brief Cloud Cobra program. Actually, every point you just mentioned, if you take the word "Spirits'" out, sounds exactly like the Capellan Confederation.

Not saying that's a bad thing. Or even that not being the best at strategy is damning in any way. Merely pointing out that the takeaway I've had from every canon instance is that your individual Spirit MW is one of the toughest in the Clans, your Star Commanders are more often than not going to win equal odds, your Trinaries and Cluster commanders on the scene are, again at even odds, going to have a string of victories, but anything larger than that & there's going to be the very real possibility the war will be lost even if individual battles are won. Again, as seen in the Burrock Absorption. And the WoR.

Maybe my use of "poor" in lieu of a more neutral "lackluster" or "average" is the issue here.
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tassa_kay

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1068 on: 10 October 2023, 05:23:27 »
I think you're both right, honestly. The Spirits are great at making the most out of the least, fighting in defense of what they do have, and aiding each other as opposed to jockeying for position/glory, but they've also shown that they are slow to adapt (the Great Refusal is a perfect example of this) and so reliant on the chain of command that they fall apart when they lose their commander (as seen in the Absorption War). I also think quite a bit of their actions during the WoR were questionable from a strategic POV, most especially the way they threw their touman into the Viper Annihilation for absolutely no gain. Having their DropShips shot down over both Circe and New Kent was just... embarrassing.
« Last Edit: 10 October 2023, 05:28:32 by tassa_kay »
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My Personal Units: Thuggee Warrior House Nagah (Capellan Confederation), 29th Blood Drinkers (Clan Blood Spirit), Nightmare Galaxy (Clan Hell's Horses), 1st Raven Rook Cluster (Raven Alliance)
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Shin_Fenris

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1069 on: 10 October 2023, 07:13:48 »
I think you're both right, honestly. The Spirits are great at making the most out of the least, fighting in defense of what they do have, and aiding each other as opposed to jockeying for position/glory, but they've also shown that they are slow to adapt (the Great Refusal is a perfect example of this) and so reliant on the chain of command that they fall apart when they lose their commander (as seen in the Absorption War). I also think quite a bit of their actions during the WoR were questionable from a strategic POV, most especially the way they threw their touman into the Viper Annihilation for absolutely no gain. Having their DropShips shot down over both Circe and New Kent was just... embarrassing.

Well, to your previous point, all Clans are guilty of making some incredibly poor strategic and tactical decisions depending on the moment (or the writer) so there's definitely fuel for either side in this. Maybe the upcoming WoR stories will give us a better example of sound strategic doctrine for the Spirits & others.
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Stormlion1

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1070 on: 10 October 2023, 17:53:04 »
Ever read the fight from her perspective that was in the Twilight of the Clans books? Where she just could not *grasp* the Inner Sphere tacts, and her 'mech was disabled because she fought and gave orders based on "how dare they!" not "Take out this threat!"

Yes, but I put that down to her expecting the Inner Sphere to fight like the Clans with all that entails. Fighting with a tech level below the Clan norm so using tactics to work around the Clan Tech advantage.
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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1071 on: 12 October 2023, 21:39:20 »
Hm. We'll have to agree to disagree, I think. Given what little we're shown of BS commanders, it reads like, more often than not, they're beast at Cluster actions or smaller (tactical) but anything involving a full Galaxy or multiple Galaxies coordinating (strategic), not so much.

As TK succinctly put, CBS was the 'more with less' Clan, making the absolute most out of a perennially poor position in terms of resources. They did this for the near entirety of their existence, centuries long.
OTP REVIVAL Trials tells us on page 16
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"The elite warriors of the Blood Spirit touman employ a brilliant defensive strategy borne of their determination to protect their holdings"


They were wise enough to contract their strategic positions to the point of leaving their Pentagon enclaves rather than sacrifice resources for symbolism and sentiment. In regards to Foster, this netted them Elementals for their troubles. They made a different strategic contraction to trade unneeded WarShips for Galaxies of BattleMechs.

The unveiling of the OmniMech saw Khan Ceana Boques initiate a number of programs to counterbalance Omnis and the Spirits' expected lack of them, most notably the Spirits extreme Warrior training and the training of the lower castes to fight.

These are some examples of a strong strategic grasp in my eyes. When you consider that strategy defined is "the science or art of combining and employing the means of war in planning and directing large military movements and operations," I can't really find anything that states the Spirits were poor at this, and one source that says precisely the opposite. Tactics, "the art or science of disposing military or naval forces for battle and maneuvering them in battle," is perhaps more where you could make your case about large-scale operations, but so much of that is tied to the historically top-heavy Spirit command structure and it's rigidity. But first you had to kill some Spirit officers to disrupt that, and that reminds me of a quote from an old TV show I enjoy, "The first step of making tiger stew: first you must catch the tiger."

Quote
You really cannot take away their actions during the Burrock Absorption and say "hey, other than this, they were brilliant!" 'cause that's one of the few really pertinent accounts we have to CBS doing literally anything in canon lore.

Indeed I can. The Crusader Clan FM out and out states the great failing of the Blood Spirits in their planning for the Absorption War was that the Burrocks hated the Spirits as much as they hated the Burrocks, and would sooner join with their absorbers than see the Spirits triumphant. I don't really think that's a doctrinal issue with the Spirits, and besides which, the Star Adder entries later in that same book make it clear the Spirits inflicted massive damage on their Touman that their Burrock abtakha only partly made up for. I look forward to the upcoming historical to flesh this most interesting conflict out further.
"Well, I do, Marcus, and rule number one of the MAC has always been that the man with the plan leads. If we get shot up, I'm the first one to get my ticket punched. There are no flags in the MAC."
"And there never will be," Barton said, nodding his head in agreement.

"You guys are facing a freaking Shadow Division! These guys have strict policies against playing fair!"

"I don’t care. Kill them. I planned the defense so I know it will work. If they claim otherwise, they’re cowards. Any step back is a betrayal of me, and saying they don’t have enough men is just an excuse for incompetence and disloyalty. Tell the Krypteia to do it if you’re too soft but get it done." -Emperor Stefan Ukris Amaris I

Stormlion1

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1072 on: 13 October 2023, 09:35:04 »
In some ways I can see the Adders issue with the Blood Spirits being more overblown than anything especially as the entire issue was the Spirits interfering in the Burrock Absortion. Something decidedly against the way the Trial system worked. The years afterwords were the Adders punishing the Spirits for that. The Blood Spirits might have been able to deal with the issue with diplomacy. But the better bet would have been to wait until after the Adders Absorbed the Burrocks and then targeted former Burrock units with raids in legal trials.
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alex blood spirit

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1073 on: 13 October 2023, 17:16:47 »
was wondering if there is any information on the Spirit's first Sakhan Devon Boques history etc.

Stormlion1

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1074 on: 05 November 2023, 18:23:09 »
was wondering if there is any information on the Spirit's first Sakhan Devon Boques history etc.

Not really. The early years of the Blood Spirits were only explored in a few Battlecorp stories that came out around the time the book Historical: Operation Klondike I think. Not sure he was a character in any of those.
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alex blood spirit

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1075 on: 20 November 2023, 19:56:05 »
what if 2 minor bloodhouse ;s decided to create a new bloodhouse or name would there still be a trial of blood rite

truetanker

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1076 on: 20 November 2023, 22:06:40 »
They'd hyphenate it, like the Mandril did...

TT
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alex blood spirit

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1077 on: 24 November 2023, 00:11:23 »
thanks for the info true tanker next question did the Spirit.s get ahold of any Inner Sphere Mechs and or designs

CJC070

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1078 on: 24 November 2023, 00:21:48 »
thanks for the info true tanker next question did the Spirit.s get ahold of any Inner Sphere Mechs and or designs

During the Clan invasion I doubt it.  Although they had a large collection of Star League era mechs.

Wolf72

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Re: Clan Blood Spirit: Get Off Our Lawn
« Reply #1079 on: 24 November 2023, 08:05:29 »
During the Clan invasion I doubt it.  Although they had a large collection of Star League era mechs.

One could easily take most of the IS mechs from CI and fluff/paint them up as 2nd line mechs for any of the smaller clans.  Some simple weapon upgrades and HS/armor tweaking and you are talking some solid machines.  They would have good guns and learn to play the heat curve quickly.
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