When do IS Energy Weapons simply become 'obsolete'?

[Challenger]

If an IS Mech Manufacturer really wants to fit a clan tech energy weaponry to their mech they now can. There is limited domestic production in most houses, Clan Sea Fox will sell weapons for the right price and the Wolf Empire is looking ripe for some good old fashion succession war style raiding/corporate espionage. In short, if your willing to pay the 'price', these weapons are available.

Unlike their ballistic weaponry, and to a lesser extent their missile weapons, Clan Energy Weapons are simply superior to their Inner Sphere counterparts, to the point that the Inner Sphere still doesn't have a proper answer to the Clan Large Pulse Laser or ER PPC and the attempts have significant drawbacks a designer has to work hard to overcome.

In the 3060/70's, the majority of Inner Sphere developers had no other choice, so the designers were forced to work out how to squeeze a 10ton Heavy PPC onto a medium mech, overcome the excessive heat of the X-Pulse series or just accept the limitations on their designs due to outdated weaponry.

But, now a 'first line' manufacturer doesn't need to accept those limitations, they just have to convince their buyers to stump up the cash for an obviously 'superior' weapon. Given the state of the universe, I wonder how long until the Houses will accept nothing less than the best available, and IS weaponry fades into oblivion as 'obsolete' technology.


The question is somewhat inspired by reading the history of the 19th century when even states that had been producing artillery pieces for centuries seemed to be buying Krupp or Armstrong artillery. It was also inspired by my own decreasing interest in designing IS mechs now that most design challenges can be solved by 'fitting a clan tech weapon instead'.

Challenger

[AlphaMirage]

There is a lot of inertia in the designs and its not like people were making large investments in armaments manufacture during the Dark Age. Even the Clans could see use in IS tech lasers for their vehicles as those are limited to SHS only. Also there is not much difference except the slight damage boost in Aerospace applications between the two thus if you want to make a dropship or aerospace fighter they can still be used. I don't think they will ever be obsolete except on Battlemechs but only after the Clans have taken over in the ilClan era, even then they aren't everywhere.

[ThePW]

the Simple Answer(tm) to that question is: They Won't.

There is no detailed explanation or backstory on how they make weapons, how they are sourced, what specific materials are used, etc. Only whom makes parts, whom assembles those parts and whom installs those parts. Clan tech remains classified by its TECH Rating (SO Corrected 2nd Printing, 2011) of E or F so it's not like you are gonna see cERML's in Space Walmart. The only thing that has changed was availability, in terms of tech advancement where stuff that used to be Experimental became more common after 3090 (TRO Prototypes 35132)

But AlphaMirage also makes a point from a In Character prospective: It is getting easier to get Clan tech and make use of it but it still remains difficult to use and, more importantly, Repair.

Out of Charactor, when you being told by your GM, just how much or how long it will take to fix stuff, it remains challenging to upkeep your precious Clan Ubermechs...

Mind you: I'm referring to SO from over a decade ago; the rules have likely evolved in the current version of that book. Correct me, Please!

[Starfury]

They won't become obsolete due to cost and the lower availability of Mech production in the Dark Age. Even the Capellans who had mothballed factories and material for 50 years still produce IS energy weapons. The Free Worlds Leauge has only recently reclaimed some of its main industrial heartland from the Republic of the Sphere and the Wolf Empire. IS energy weapons still hit hard enough, have decent if shorter ranges, and are efficient for a large amount of chassis. Certain advancements like the reengineered laser outstrip Clan Tech in one way or another. 

Another thing that will make IS energy weapons stay in use is the lack of HPG communications. Even though Sea Fox appears to be slowly rebuilding the HPG Net, it takes a lot of time and effort to arrange shipping of components from one planet to another. You can't just go hit Sea Fox up via your phone app and say I want 30 Clan ER PPCs today and expect next day delivery. Logistics is a huge key.

[Sartris]

Until armor becomes universal that IS lasers can’t damage, they’ll stick around. The humble ML continues to show up on new designs when even more advanced IS tech is available

[Challenger]

Armstrong and Krupp were hardly within easy reach of Pacific, yet their weapons were in regular use by forces on both sides of that ocean by the 1890’s. Communication and Logistical issues can be overcome with planning and preparation.

I think we also have to take perspective into account. If you’re a mech manufacturer in 3145, do you want you new mech to have an ‘inferior’ gun on it, or do you fit it with the newest shiny. If you’re buying a mech in 3145, do you want a mech with an ‘inferior’ weapons fit, or do you buy something with the best gun you can afford.

There is a reason the F-16 is one of the world’s most popular jet fighters and the F-20 program died, no-one wanted to buy the ‘lesser’ aircraft.

I’m not suggesting that IS tech will become extinct any time soon, simply that it will disappear from front line units because no self respecting front line unit will want it once better becomes available.


All that said, I agree that the current rules don’t reflect the situation I’m envisaging. But, as ThePW points out, the rules are a decade old and IIRC designed around the 3067 era when the IS had been exposed to these weapons for 17 years.

The IS now has 90+ years of experience of working with these systems. 5 whole clans have moved into the IS, it seems to my mind incredible that this kit would still be viewed as difficult to maintain. Has there been no defections, no-one has stollen a maintenance manual?


As an aside, the IS Medium Laser is I think unique in not having a proper clan equivalent. The Clan ER Medium Laser is really a Large Laser Minus (15 hex range, 7 damage) and out preformed by the IS Medium in the role of light, low heat secondary weapon. If the tech bases are ever merged, the IS Medium Laser is the only weapon I’d hope to see retained.

Challenger

[AlphaMirage]

You could argue that the cERSL is equivalent, it is more limited than the ML but not bad for a close range backup. The cERLL is arguably a PPC+ as well. Clan energy weapons are weird.

[Maingunnery]

You could argue that the cERSL is equivalent, it is more limited than the ML but not bad for a close range backup. The cERLL is arguably a PPC+ as well. Clan energy weapons are weird.

And not to forget the chemical medium laser. 

[AlphaMirage]

I love the chemical medium laser, I think its a great weapon and kinda wish they fluffed it in as what is powering infantry lasers blaster rifle style.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

When the Inner Sphere began mass-producing Clantech ER lasers in the Republic Era, Inner Sphere ER lasers became obsolete.  But they keep producing the IS ER lasers because they're cheaper and easier to maintain than Clantech ones.  Same goes for the other guns, and very few factories are able to produce Clantech pulse lasers or ER PPCs anyway.

[ColBosch]

There is a big difference between "obsolete" and "not worth using anymore."

[Von Jankmon]

The medium and large laser will never become obsolete because they are not. They are cheap and reliable and relatively simple to make and operate.  Those qualities are always desirable, and often preferable.  I can see ilclan era mech producers deliberately choosing them as design options for valid reasons.

[ColBosch]

The medium and large laser will never become obsolete because they are not. They are cheap and reliable and relatively simple to make and operate.  Those qualities are always desirable, and often preferable.  I can see ilclan era mech producers deliberately choosing them as design options for valid reasons.

Exactly. They're obsolete, yes. But they're not useless.

Here's a real-world example: adjustable vs. fixed wrenches. A good adjustable wrench will round off most bolts before its mechanism fails; fixed wrenches are therefore obsolete. But it's still far cheaper to produce fixed wrenches than high-quality adjustables, and for most uses the older tech is just fine. You're unlikely to break even a cheapo fixed wrench unless you're pulling apart engine blocks or the like.

And we shouldn't discount "invalid" reasons, either. People still buy and use revolvers, which have arguably been obsolete for over a century. (AND WE'RE NOT REHASHING THAT ARGUMENT HERE.) Sometimes obsolete technology is used simply because of social or bureaucratic inertia, or for cost (like Von Jankmon mentioned), or simply because people like the tech for wholly emotional reasons. "Obsolete" just means that superior technology exists; it's not a value judgement.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Or to use a military tech example, the T-34 medium tank was obsolete by the 50s at least, and it's still being used by some countries.

[The Wobbly Guy]

Extreme example- the USS Harnett County was built in 1944 during WW2, and is still in service in the Philippine Navy as the Sierra Madre, facing down the PRC.

Way obsolete, but not useless!

[Starfury]

Super extreme example: the Maxim machine gun is still in use and that's from 1884!

[Challenger]

A version of the Lee-Enfield SMLE is still in use with the Indian Police Force (and I think their border force?) and Blücher was sunk by 19th century coastal defences in 1940,  I agree that obsolete does not mean useless and it certainly doesn't mean harmless. For certain uses (training, border security, issuing to 'unreliable' troops) obsolete equipment might even be preferable. Warfighting is rarely one of those cases.

For that reason militaries do not typically buy obsolete equipment. A 7.62 bolt action rifle will absolutely kill a man, but try issuing them to the US Marine Corp and see the response. Try suggesting that the US Army should readopt the Sherman... Issuing your troops inferior kit typically achieves three things,

• Kills your troops morale
• Looks very bad in the papers
• Gets your troops killed

One on one, Clan mechs kill equivalent Inner Sphere mechs, their weaponry is simply superior. If you could close that technological gap, why wouldn't you?

Cost, I don't think should be an issue for House militaries, and even mercenaries to an extent. The majority of a mech's cost is determined by its tonnage and its engine rating, doubling the weapons cost wouldn't likely shift the needle that much.

Maintenance and ease of procurement absolutely should be an issue and that is why I tended to avoid too much mixed tech in the 3050-3067 era. I absolutely agree with the rules that make it harder to maintain a jury rigged mixed tech mech than a factory standard machine, but that is also my point in the post 3145 era. Once you have mixed tech mechs being produced in a factory, using factory produced (i.e. not salvaged) clan components, why should those be harder to maintain? As far as I am aware, Clan tech isn't harder to maintain, its harder for a Inner Sphere techies to maintain because they are not trained on it, don't have the manuals or the spare parts. I don't see that that should hold true in 3145.
 
ColBosch's "invalid" reasons are worth considering as well. 'Tradition', 'familiarity', 'bureaucracy', 'reactionaries', 'budgets' are all historical reasons for militaries marching to war with 'last years' weaponry. I could definitely see a few units/houses insisting on using existing weapons for any of the above reasons. That said, none of those are good reasons, and history looks poorly on militaries that have left their troops in possession of inferior weapons when the shooting starts.

The difference between giving a technician a fixed wrench and a tank crew a T-34 is the fixed wrench is very unlikely to get the technician killed. The T-34 will absolutely get its crew killed if it goes anywhere near the shooting.

Challenger

[Challenger]

Super extreme example: the Maxim machine gun is still in use and that's from 1884!

Ok that is pretty cool and I didn't know that.

Challenger

[Challenger]

The medium and large laser will never become obsolete because they are not. They are cheap and reliable and relatively simple to make and operate.  Those qualities are always desirable, and often preferable.  I can see ilclan era mech producers deliberately choosing them as design options for valid reasons.

I’d have to disagree

The Medium Laser is borderline, as while I think I agree with Alphamirage’s suggestion of the ER Small as a replacement, there are things it still does better.

The standard large laser though is obsolete. The Clan ER Medium does basically the same job for 4tons, 3 heat and 1 crit less (in exchange for 1 less damage). For 1 extra ton, you could upgrade to the infinitely superior Clan Large Pulse Laser. If you can’t afford that ton, you should really be using a 4ton ER Large Laser.

Gains in reliability are to my mind questionable, the clan designs are 100’s of years old now, any real kinks should have been worked out by now. Besides, I’m mounting it on a decidedly not simple, not easy to maintain battlemech. It seems like a false economy to skimp on the weapons. Like fitting a maxim machine gun to an F-16 rather than a vulcan cannon.

Thats not to say the large laser is useless, just that there are now weapons that do its job of being a relatively light, medium range, medium damage weapon….better.

Challenger

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

The IS now has 90+ years of experience of working with these systems. 5 whole clans have moved into the IS, it seems to my mind incredible that this kit would still be viewed as difficult to maintain. Has there been no defections, no-one has stollen a maintenance manual?

There's an article in Shrapnel about this: Clantech is not really made to last. Compared to IS tech which is made of Star League dontbreakium where you can stash it in a closet for 200 years and it'll still work, Clantech needs constant attention and wears out fast.

[ColBosch]

There's an article in Shrapnel about this: Clantech is not really made to last. Compared to IS tech which is made of Star League dontbreakium where you can stash it in a closet for 200 years and it'll still work, Clantech needs constant attention and wears out fast.

That makes a lot of sense, especially with Omni technology and the Homeworlds' economic system.

[BrianDavion]

There's an article in Shrapnel about this: Clantech is not really made to last. Compared to IS tech which is made of Star League dontbreakium where you can stash it in a closet for 200 years and it'll still work, Clantech needs constant attention and wears out fast.

I'm curious, what sharpnal issue do you recall?

[Pat Payne]

Extreme example- the USS Harnett County was built in 1944 during WW2, and is still in service in the Philippine Navy as the Sierra Madre, facing down the PRC.

Way obsolete, but not useless!

And what about the B-52 Stratofortress... 70+ years old and still flying, in fact it may hit 90 before it is finally replaced.

[Starfury]

The B-52 will probably be in service until the sun burns out at this rate.

I can see IS energy weapons being moved to second tier designs as new construction comes online, but I doubt we'll ever see them go out of use completely.  There are several new weapon types the IS invented Clans haven't developed their own versions of, ranging from the aforementioned reengineered lasers, bombast lasers, variable speed pulse lasers, plasma
rifles, and more.  There is also the Periphery states to consider who are running at Jihad or higher tech levels that still make tons of use of older IS energy weapons. A PPC with a capacitor does 15pts of damage out to 18 hexes and only weighs 8 tons with the capacitor. It may be able to only do 15 points every other round, but that matches the Clan ER PPC.

The two weapons I can see falling by the wayside are IS ER Large Lasers and pulse lasers. The advent of VSPs, X-Pulses, RISC stuff and light/Snub PPCs make them far less useful given that most new designs will use some form of weight saving technology to make ip for the larger heat.  IS ER Large Lasers and pulse weapons can't match those weapons and Clan ones as well.

[Challenger]

And what about the B-52 Stratofortress... 70+ years old and still flying, in fact it may hit 90 before it is finally replaced.

Strictly speaking the B-52 is simply old, not obsolete. No-one had managed to build anything that does its job better than it does. (in anyway that actually matters)

Of course, it has also been upgraded to the 9's and reinvented itself to stay relevant. In its original role of delivering strategic free-fall nuclear bombs it is obsolete....mostly because that role is obsolete.

The Chinook is similar. Its hard to make it 'better' in a way that won't takeaway from its core role of 'medium lift helicopter'.

There's an article in Shrapnel about this: Clantech is not really made to last. Compared to IS tech which is made of Star League dontbreakium where you can stash it in a closet for 200 years and it'll still work, Clantech needs constant attention and wears out fast.

Now that is VERY interesting. It would make a good reason to keep older IS tech in production for those units significantly less likely to see regular action.

Challenger

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

There's an article in Shrapnel about this: Clantech is not really made to last. Compared to IS tech which is made of Star League dontbreakium where you can stash it in a closet for 200 years and it'll still work, Clantech needs constant attention and wears out fast.

I figured it was something like that: Clantech probably has much narrower tolerances to get better peak performance.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Clantech ER lasers clearly outclass IS ER. Clan pulses clearly outclass IS pulses (outside of some of the new stuff like VSPLs, RE Lasers, etc).  But the good old fashioned, humble L1 lasers?  They still have their niches.  Vehicles are one, where the lower heat is absolutely essential.  But even for mechs, there are times where a few standard, 500 year old MLs beat an equal number of cERMLs, again largely because of heat.  You rebuild a Komodo with cERMLs, it won't be able to use half its lasers for heat woes.  plus, you can find the damn things everywhere.  Why rely on a passing Sea Fox who'll make you fight him just to have the right to buy new clantech at extortionate rates when every random junk yard has 2-3 working MLs and parts you can cobble into 6 more, all available at firesale prices?

[Pat Payne]

I figured it was something like that: Clantech probably has much narrower tolerances to get better peak performance.

Although with the Clans' "waste not want not" mentality (born of their living on relatively resource-poor worlds), I would have thought that they would have engineered their weapons to last as long as possible so that they didn't have to throw out perfectly good gear because a framistat blew.

[Retry]

Eh... One could definitely improve something like the Komodo with ERs.  Personally, I'd go the ER Small route instead of ER Mediums, and used the weight saved for further upgrades to the platform (that or just make it lighter)

The potential logistical benefits of using mediums vs clan ER Smalls, though, can be compelling, depending on who's in charge of Acquisition.

Although with the Clans' "waste not want not" mentality (born of their living on relatively resource-poor worlds), I would have thought that they would have engineered their weapons to last as long as possible so that they didn't have to throw out perfectly good gear because a framistat blew.

That might make more sense if the Exodus crew were more Star-League-in-Exile flavored, laying dormant and slowly building up their position for a triumphant return to the Inner Sphere, but the Clans blow themselves up in trials on a regular basis as a form of conflict resolution.  From their perspective, if you spend a bunch of time and resources over-engineering your weapons so they will last two hundred years, when the typical service life will be serving in five trials and then getting blown to bits on the 6th, that overbuilding for a 200-year service life costs resources that could have been spent elsewhere, such as making more weapons for more 'Mechs to throw into trials.

In normal cicumstances it doesn't make much sense to build a combat vehicle for a 200-yr service life, but in Battletech combat technology moves along slowly enough that such a vehicle, while likely dated, won't be so far behind its peers 200 years in the future as to be hopelessly outclassed, as would happen in real life.

[ColBosch]

Although with the Clans' "waste not want not" mentality (born of their living on relatively resource-poor worlds), I would have thought that they would have engineered their weapons to last as long as possible so that they didn't have to throw out perfectly good gear because a framistat blew.

That mentality, like much of the Way of the Clans, is extremely flexible. It's a bit like physical attacks, orbital bombardment, or not pretending to be a freeborn in order to get a second chance at a Trial of Position.