Honestly, I would see a classic Griffin body as an ideal place to start if one wanted to make a Bluestreak/Prowl/Jazz/Smokescreen type of wheeled AutoMech. But judging by the dialog, Groundwave is likely on track for a plain ol' non-convertible form.
- Herb
Gryphon Wheeled AutoMech 50-ton concept
Mass: 50 tons
Chassis: Standard LAM
Power Plant: 250 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Jump Jets: Standard
Jump Capacity: 90 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
1 PPC
1 LRM 5
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-X
Cost: N/A
Type: Gryphon Wheeled AutoMech
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Tonnage: 50
Battle Value: N/A
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 5
LAM Conversion Equipment 7.5
Engine 250 Fusion 12.5
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Wheeled Cruise: 6
Wheeled Flank: 9
Heat Sink 11 1
Gyro 3
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor 120 7.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 16 14
Center Torso (rear) 7
R/L Torso 12 14
R/L Torso (rear) 5
R/L Arm 8 12
R/L Leg 12 14
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
Heat Sink CT 1 - 1.0
LRM 5 Ammo (24) RT 1 - 1.0
LRM 5 RT 1 2 2.0
CASE RT 1 - 0.5
PPC RA 3 10 7.0
Note: No Turret in Wheeled Mode
Gryphon Wheeled AutoMech 55-ton concept
Mass: 55 tons
Chassis: Standard LAM
Power Plant: 275 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Jump Jets: Standard
Jump Capacity: 90 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
1 PPC
1 LRM 5
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-X
Cost: N/A
Type: Gryphon Wheeled AutoMech
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Tonnage: 55
Battle Value: N/A
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 5.5
LAM Conversion Equipment 8.25
Engine 275 Fusion 15.5
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Wheeled Cruise: 6
Wheeled Flank: 9
Heat Sink 11 1
Gyro 3
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor 128 8
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 18 16
Center Torso (rear) 7
R/L Torso 13 16
R/L Torso (rear) 5
R/L Arm 9 12
R/L Leg 13 15
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
LRM 5 Ammo (24) RT 1 - 1.0
LRM 5 RT 1 2 2.0
CASE RT 1 - 0.5
PPC RA 3 10 7.0
Note: No Turret in Wheeled Mode
So, the difficulty: I'm not sure which fits in better with the published Syberian units, and whether to go with single heat sinks or doubles. This is representative of an AutoMech type that didn't stand out as being common enough to get included in the report from Interstellar Expeditions and, for that matter, a medium wheeled AutoMech was literally cut from the publication. I kind of feel like a 50-ton AutoMech with single heat sinks might work better, then, with the idea being that they eventually got completely eclipsed by the Seekers in that tonnage range, while the Beetle and the Sounder were flexible enough to take its other roles. I'm also not at all set on these names for the AutoMech classes. They're just working names that popped into my head.
Thoughts, ideas, comments, suggestions?
From what it sounds like, you'll need at least 3 chassis to represent the middle Automechs.
A 6/9/6+ scout type that carries ECM/Beagle (Mirage, Hound), 6/9 - 5/8/5 type with punch (Sunstreaker, Sideswipe. Blue Streak, Prowl, Wheeljack, Jazz, ) then the 4/6 armor and guns (Trailbreaker, Ironhide, Ratchet) possibly.
Says the guy who inspired me to kitbash them as accurately as possible 8)
the one flaw i can see is the fact that by being wheeled and a comms unit, it is pretty much overlapping with the existing types. so i doubt you'd see more than a handful.
though the weight range is good one, and perhaps the type could be adapted to another role?. perhaps instead you could base a bimodal tracked type off Warpath (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Warpath_(G1)) from G1.? a 55 ton chassis would make for a good trooper unit, and it could mount a variety of heavier weapons meant to bolster those of the lighter Beetles.
From what it sounds like, you'll need at least 3 chassis to represent the middle Automechs.
A 6/9/6+ scout type that carries ECM/Beagle (Mirage, Hound), 6/9 - 5/8/5 type with punch (Sunstreaker, Sideswipe. Blue Streak, Prowl, Wheeljack, Jazz, ) then the 4/6 armor and guns (Trailbreaker, Ironhide, Ratchet) possibly.
I wouldn't let the limited number of chassis types in the Syberia write-up be too restrictive for your consideration; that was basically an arbitrary cross-section devised by the IE team who encountered them (doing ALL of the various types I could think of could have filled a full-sized TRO, which I don't think they'd let me get away with), with some simplification tossed in during the process (such as how the AeroMechs and Seekers were implied to be one class when they could potentially be two distinct classes, with the AeroMechs based more on the Aerialbots and the Seekers based on the F-15-type Seekers).
Nearly certainly. Although I think I implied that the Syberian Ironhide and Ratchet could be variants of the Sounder class (mainly because I was seeing all of them transform into a similar "armored SUV" type of vehicle), there's no real reason they couldn't be different actual chassis types, as I just implied the AeroMechs and Seekers might be.
The truly fun part, for me, would be picking out which extant BattleTech units best fit the look of the Transformers you want to have. Mirage and Hound may have similar equipment, but they'd almost HAVE to have different chassis types; I see the Griffin fitting our Bluestreak, Prowl, Smokescreen, and Jazz types mainly because the class Griffin's prominent chest shape and broad lower legs almost perfectly fits the way those G1 figures looked in robot mode. For Sunstreaker, Wheeljack, and Tracks, who have flatter chests and whose legs split from their front wheels (instead of the back, as Bluestreak, Prowl, etc. so), I'd imagine a different-but-almost similar body type...possibly the Shadowhawk or Wolverine. (Sideswipe is funny, because he transforms much like the "griffins," but ends up with a body that looks closer to other "flat-chest" types in robot mode.)
...Yeah, I've probably put way more thought into these guys than is entirely necessary.
- Herb
The Seekers could be the ones that use improved jump jets for better flying speed. AerialBots could be the same mass, use standard jump jets to go a bit slower, but gain back another 3.5 tons for payload and armor in comparison. Which reminds me...
You could run it either way, since there's a lot of variety you can accomplish in both chassis using the same engine, gyro, structure and armor. I mean, the Seeker carries six tons of cargo and 3 tons of electronics, but is 3.5 tons shy of maximum armor. I took a page from your description, and had Spanner drop the ECM/BAP of the Sounder, and made his "VeeMech" special equipment be a salvage arm: he still carries two 3-ton cargo bays. A "FerroSkin" VeeMech could instead swap that for more armor, drop one of the cargo bays, and pack on, say, 3 medium lasers in place of one of the cargo bays, thus improving his firepower and protection.
Maybe? But they make for interesting ideas. And I'm trying to decide on which is funnier: three Wheeled AutoMechs all at 55 tons but totally different loadouts like the "Classic" trio, or dropping their weights to be the same as their "IIC" counterparts at 40, 45 and 50 tons, or making them the same mass as their Primitive counterparts at 50, 55 and 60 tons. Or, maybe more accurately, which AutoMech to make which mass. I'm not as well-versed in Transformers as I'd like, enough to be able to do all of them, consisting mainly of half-forgotten G1 stuff and a smattering of the more recent Robots in Disguise and RescueBots cartoons.
Breaking down the categories, though:
40-ton 6/9/7/11 Wheeled AutoMech, 6.5 tons armor, 6 tons weaponry (enough for a BAP/ECM and 3 MLs)
40-ton 7/11/8/12 Wheeled AutoMech, 6 tons armor, 3 tons weaponry (RiD Sideswipe, armed with just a sword/light vibroblade)
45-ton 6/9/7/11 Wheeled AutoMech, 6.5 tons armor, 6.5 tons weaponry
50-ton 5/8/6/9 Wheeled AutoMech, 8 tons armor, 11 tons weaponry (StrongArm could fit here)
50-ton 6/9/7/11 Wheeled AutoMech, 7 tons armor, 5 tons weaponry (this could be a RiD Sideswipe that picks up a laser or two in addition to the sword)
55-ton 5/8/6/9 Wheeled AutoMech, 8.5 tons armor, 11 tons weaponry (Another StrongArm alternative, but maybe better for someone like Drift)
AeroMech, 50-ton Flying AutoMech, 8 tons armor, 8.5 tons weaponry
That'd certainly fill out the medium categories pretty well. I'm holding off on VTOL AutoMechs because the construction rules drive me crazy, thanks to rotor weight. For example, trying to build Windblade ends up extremely difficult
That's certainly one way to handle the AeroMechs. Or at least for Silverbolt's analog, as he was bigger than the others and uncomfortable being a flyer (this would explain his slower speed, despite G1 Silverbolt being based on one of the fastest jets of the day). Then again, another option would be to build G1 Silverbolt as a WiGEMech, and have him spend most of his time skimming the ground, while being BIG.
Well, if you're using the original Nebula California rules, using any armor or structure types that take critical slots isn't allowed for convertible AutoMechs. They're fine for non-convertibles, though. XL engines are even more restrictive, as the AutoMechs can only use standard/large standard fusion, or standard/large standard fuel cell engines, regardless of transforming capability.
Well, the Syberian AutoMechs are derived from Star League tech at its zenith (with some notable absences, such as the aforementioned XLs), so I would suggest maybe using the Primitive or classic forms of the Wolverweenie/Shad/Griffin trinity there. The Primitive chassis types does make for more variety, of course.
I would build Wingblade as a Seeker variant, to be honest. She's a jet, despite the fan blades, just like G1 Thrust. In about every way that matters, she'd not need to change too far from a Seeker (she even transforms a lot like them).
But, of course, that's just me. ;)
- Herb
Are WiGEMechs built like AutoMechs with a requirement for Jump Jets for movement or are they built more like AeroMechs with flight limited by elevation instead of altitude? I ask because they do have a different crit requirements.
Aren't there also Industrial Chassis types for even more variety?
Definitely a Seeker like Thrust. Rotors could be used as VTOL equipment that other Seekers lack or as part of a more primitive Seeker variant.
I'm curious is superheavies could be used. Such as Fortress Maximus style mech/bots.
I'm not seeing a different crit requirement in my tables here (where the conversion equipment slots are spelled out, AeroMechs and WiGEMechs have the same required slots) And they do require jets, as per the following:
"WiGE AutoMechs: Wing-in-Ground Effect AutoMechs are a rare hybrid of vehicle and fighter AutoMech types. Though built like fighter AutoMechs, their alternate mode behaves in accordance with WiGE vehicle rules. Requiring thrusters to achieve their speed and lift, WiGE AutoMechs function as typical jump-capable units in ’Mech mode. But when converted to vehicle mode, each Jump MP translates to 1 WiGE MP (Cruising), with Flank MP calculated as normal. "
Yup.
Yeah, but mostly this is a cosmetic thing in BT; aerospace fighters wound up gaining VTOL capabilities in Total Warfare, last I recalled, so our Thrust/Wingblade would simply be showing off more obvious VTOL equipment than most, since their flight modes use aerospace fighter rules.
- Herb
I'm curious is superheavies could be used. Such as Fortress Maximus style mech/bots.
Superheavies might be better suited for Sky Lynx (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Sky_Lynx_(G1))
Now I wonder how you would design the combiners (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Combiner), such as Devastator (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Devastator_(G1))? Would this be a similar tonnage cost as the LAM conversion equipment where you pay 15% for the VeeMech capability, but you would then pay another 15% for the ability to combine? Much less dangerous individually, but becoming the larger Mech would be a nasty surprise.
Triple changers might have a higher percentage of mass needed for the LAM conversion equipment, since they need more flexibility (i.e. Blitzwing).
Perhaps the combiner% should vary based on the number of units needed to work together, as some units are merely Multi-component (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Multi-component_Transformer) transformers where each is part of the whole rather than full combiners (where each individual can be separate).
For the thrill of it, try to imagines rules for a Mobile Structure (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mobile_Structure) AutoBoP or Democon:
Fortress Maximus (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Fortress_Maximus_(G1))
Metroplex (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Metroplex_(G1)) (though this might feature the Building rules instead of Mobile Structures)
Omega Supreme (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Omega_Supreme_(G1))
Scorponok (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Scorponok_(G1))
Trypticon (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Trypticon_(G1))
Still, with the additional communications systems, perhaps Groundwave can become a Cityspeaker (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Cityspeaker). Who knows, if Groundwave ever transforms, he could become a Headmaster (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Headmaster_(technology)).
[b]Syberian Faction Chassis Class/Type BattleMech Vehicle[/b]
Primus Optimal AutoBoP Leader (Wheeled/100) Grand Titan HQ Vehicle
Beetle Bee AutoBoP Beetle (Wheeled/35) Commando Rotunda
Wheeler Jack AutoBoP Jack (Wheeled/50?) Shadow Hawk? Rotunda
Jazzy (Streaker) AutoBoP Streaker (Wheeled/55?) Griffin Rotunda
Blue Streaker AutoBoP Streaker (Wheeled/55?) Griffin Rotunda
(Vee-)Brawny AutoBoP VeeMech (Wheeled/60) Wolverine Striker
Beetle Jumper AutoBoP Beetle (Wheeled/35) Commando Rotunda
Beetle Gear AutoBoP Beetle (Wheeled/35) Commando Light SRM
(Vee-)Hounder AutoBoP VeeMech (Wheeled/60) Wolverine Ibex Armored
Huffa Minor AutoBoP Leader (Wheeled/100) Grand Titan Thor SPHA
Ferro-Vee AutoBoP VeeMech (Wheeled/60) Wolverine MASH Vehicle
Sensor Ghost AutoBoP Ghost (Wheeled/40?) Assassin? Zephyros
Prowler (Streaker) AutoBoP Streaker (Wheeled/55?) Griffin Rotunda
(Vee-)Wrenchit AutoBoP VeeMech (Wheeled/60) Wolverine MASH Vehicle
Swiper Jack AutoBoP Jack (Wheeled/50?) Shadow Hawk? Rotunda
Sunny Streak(er) AutoBoP Streaker (Wheeled/55?) Griffin Rotunda
(Vee-)Trailer AutoBoP VeeMech (Wheeled/60) Wolverine Striker
Beetle Charger AutoBoP Beetle (Wheeled/35) Commando Light SRM
Hauler Crane AutoBoP Crane (Wheeled/75?) Grasshopper JI-100
Aero Fire AutoBoP* Seeker II (Aero/55?) Crusader Rusalka
Grimdark DynaBoG Grimdark (Bestial/100) Shiro White Flame
Grim-Slagger DynaBoG Grimdark (Bestial/100) Shiro Trebaruna
Grim-Slugger DynaBoG Grimdark (Bestial/100) Shiro Balius
Grim-Snarler DynaBoG Grimdark (Bestial/100) Shiro Trebaruna
Swooper DynaBoG Swooper (Aero/50?) Stinger LAM (Mk I) Stinger LAM (Mk I)
MechaTankus DemoCon Tankus (Tracked/100) Shootist Ajax
Shocker Tankus DemoCon Tankus (Tracked/100) Highlander Rommel
Star Seeker DemoCon Seeker (Aero/50) Phoenix Hawk MechBuster
Wave Sounder DemoCon Sounder (Wheeled/60) Prim. Thunderbolt Packrat LRPV
-Red Frenzy Drone DemoCon Grunt Drone (BA/2) Golem BA --
-Laserwing Drone DemoCon Flight Drone (Aero/1.5?) Aeshna (Micro) --
-Ravager Drone DemoCon Quad Drone (BA/1) Rottweiler BA --
-Blue Rumbler Drone DemoCon Grunt Drone (BA/2) Golem BA --
Sky Seeker DemoCon Seeker (Aero/50) Phoenix Hawk MechBuster
Thunder Seeker DemoCon Seeker (Aero/50) Phoenix Hawk MechBuster
Acid Seeker DemoCon Seeker (Aero/50) Phoenix Hawk MechBuster
Ion Seeker DemoCon Seeker (Aero/50) Phoenix Hawk MechBuster
Nova Seeker DemoCon Seeker (Aero/50) Phoenix Hawk MechBuster
Bit Seeker DemoCon Seeker (Aero/50) Phoenix Hawk MechBuster
Heat Seeker DemoCon Seeker (Aero/50) Phoenix Hawk MechBuster
Cell Seeker DemoCon Seeker (Aero/50) Phoenix Hawk MechBuster
Sun Seeker DemoCon Seeker (Aero/50) Phoenix Hawk MechBuster
Deflector (Triad) DemoCon Triad (Emplacement/20) Hankyu Oro Turret
Scrapper-D DemoCon Dozer (Wheeled/40?) Apollo Turhan
Crusher-D DemoCon Grinder (Tracked/45?) Beowulf Mithras
Hooker-D DemoCon Lifter (Wheeled/75?) Grasshopper JI-100
Hauler-D DemoCon Dozer (Wheeled/40?) Apollo Indra
Mixer-D DemoCon Dozer (Wheeled/40?) Apollo Coolant Truck
Salvager-D DemoCon Grinder (Tracked/45?) Beowulf Zorya
Scrap Sector InterSectCon Sector (Bestial/60?) Quickdraw Stalking Spider
Bomb Sector InterSectCon Sector (Bestial/60?) Quickdraw Fire Scorpion
Kick Hopper InterSectCon Hopper (Bestial/40?) Spider Tarantula
*Reprogrammed from DemoCon
*The only major exception I am aware of is ravage in beast wars. Where apparently the little robokitty became a feline predacon with a humanoid mode after the great upgrade. But that was the far future of the setting. Sorta. (Beast wars involved time travel so it gets complicated)
And he STILL had a tape cassette mode, which was funny.and a thick russian accent..
- Herb
[quote author=HABeas2 link=topic=76748.msg1811795#msg1811795 date=1645869821]
In order to stay relatively close to the BattleTech we know and love, I put some limits on how big the various transforming types could get.[/quote]
I can understand that. At some point the conversion process goes from seconds to minuets and that moves things beyond even aerospace time scale. But they'd still be fun.
[quote]
The weight tables went like this:
From the (Transforming) AutoMech Construction Basics Table--
Fighter/WiGE AutoMechs - Max Tons: 55 (Fighter), 80 (WiGE) - Other Restrictions: Only biped ’Mechs
Vehicle AutoMechs - Max Tons: 100 (Tracked), 85 (Wheeled), 55 (Hover) - Other Restrictions: Biped and Quad ’Mechs only
VTOL AutoMechs - Max Tons: 40 - Other Restrictions: Only biped ’Mechs
Bestial AutoMechs - Max Tons: 100 - Other Restrictions: Not available to tripod ’Mechs
Emplacement AutoMechs - Max Tons: 200 - Other Restrictions: Available to all ’Mech forms
Beyond those, an AutoMech could be made into any unit type that was non-transforming in nature, so you could do Mobile Structures and DropShips as AutoMechs, but they'd never have a robot mode. Likewise, I didn't write up rules for combiner types, planet-sized transformers, and other oddities of the TF universe, because I wanted the results to stay closer to BT than TF in the end.[/quote]
Very cool. I can see wanting to be closer to BT than TF. So I can understand no combiners and planet-size transformers. I don't know about trimodal and triple changers being excluded though. I'm also not sure why quads and tripods are excluded from so many categories.
We have Sky Lynx for a Quad AeroMech. I've also seen a custom tripod aerialbot that converted into a Focke-Wulf Triebflügel. I wish I could find the picture. :-[ It was cool though. All the aerialbots were german fighters.
[quote]....
And thanks to this conversation, I have spent a portion of today going over the cartoon cast of the first season of Transformers, identifying which Autobots would convert to which AutoMech Chassis types, what new classes I would need to fill them out, and what minis would be needed to match them closest as far as aesthetics.
Hope you're all happy! :D
- Herb
[/quote]
I am. :)
[quote author=HABeas2 link=topic=76748.msg1811868#msg1811868 date=1645898279]
Okay, so, using the info from the original Nebula California text... Going through the characters featured in Season 1 of the original G1 Transformers cartoon... Cross-referencing with specs given and/or implied.... And combing through Iron Wind Metals' BattleTech minis (both standard and online exclusives), I've come up with this:
(snip)
[/quote]
Very cool! Thanks! :thumbsup: If IronWind Metals ever made minis of more civilian style vehicles would your selections change any? Like the Saturnus for Mirage
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Saturnus_V and the Simca for Rachet and Ironhide https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Simca ?
[quote]*Reprogrammed from DemoCon
* Speaking of Megs and Shockwave, here they are tank Transformers. Even though their original G1 bodies both converted into guns, both have since received tank mode versions that aimed at giving their G1 bodies some agency of their own in alt modes. Same goes for how Soundwave got a wheeled vehicle mode despite originally being a tape deck.
* I am introducing battle armor drones here to cover the "tapes." They do not transform. I was not about to devise a set of transformation rules for BA-sized drones when they already have too many space/mass challenges to deal with. Just imagine they make the transformation sound as they deploy from their host and you still get most of the G1 feel anyway.
* As indicated by the question marks, I'm not as positive on some mini and tonnage recommendations, but I decided to fill in something just the same.
>> Swooper - A unique Aerofighter AutoMech derived from the Mark I form of the Stinger LAM ('Mech and Fighter forms). Likely 50 tons, as it is basically a DynaBoG ("Dinobot") version of the Seeker, and covers "Swoop."
>> Grunt Drone - humanoid battle armor-sized robotic drone, visually closest to the Golem in shape and size. Covers the "Rumble" and "Frenzy" cassette deployers. Likely 2 tons as well.
>> Flight Drone - Micro-Fighter robotic drone, visually closest to the Aeshna fighter (use the Micro-scale mini, of course). Covers "Laserbeak" cassette deployer. Likely 1.5-2 tons. No more than 3. Bust out the ultra-light Support Vehicle rules to make that one!
>> Quad Drone - quad battle armor-sized robotic drone, visually closest to the Rottweiler in shape and size. Covers "Ravage," and likely 1 ton.
* Worth noting, perhaps, is that the DynaBoG and InterSect Confederacy are lower-tech than their corresponding allies, and thus should probably be using IndustrialMech components, like Grimdark does.
I'm getting the shakes now, so I'll call it a day here and leave this rambling post for you guys to discuss.
- Herb
Conclusions:
* Leaving variants aside for the moment, we need the following all-new base chassis types:
>> Jack - A medium-weight Wheeled AutoMech likely derived from the Shadow Hawk ('Mech)/Rotunda (Vee). Perhaps 50 tons in mass. Covers the AutoMech versions of "Wheeljack" and "Sideswipe."
>> Streaker - A medium-weight Wheeled AutoMech likely derived from the Griffin ('Mech)/Rotunda (Vee). Perhaps 55 tons in mass. Covers the AutoMech versions of "Jazz," "Bluestreak," "Prowl," and "Sunstreaker."
>> VeeMech - Assumed to be a Wheeled AutoMech equal to the Ender class used by the DemoCons, so assumed to have a 60-ton mass, but likely derived from a different chassis--in this case, the Wolverine ('Mech)/Striker or MASH (Vee). Striker variants cover AutoMechs versions of "Brawn," and "Trailbreaker," while MASH variants cover AutoMech versions of "Ironhide," and "Ratchet." Still another vehicle form variant--this one derived from the armored Ibex--covers AutoMech version of "Hound."
>> Ghost - A unique Wheeled AutoMech likely derived from the Assassin ('Mech)/Zephyros or Swift Wind (Vee). Perhaps 40 tons in mass. Covers the AutoMech answer to "Mirage." (Assassin 'Mech form based on opinions voiced in this thread.)
>> Lifter - A rare Wheeled AutoMech likely derived from the Grasshopper ('Mech)/JI-100 Recovery Vehicle (Vee). Perhaps 75 tons in mass. Covers the AutoMech answer to "Hauler" (an Autobot seen only in the pilot series, who never transformed, but possibly morphed later on into "Grapple" of later seasons), and "Hook" (one of the Constructicons).
>> Seeker II - A unique Aerofighter AutoMech likely derived from the Crusader ('Mech)/Rusalka (Fighter). A 55-ton Seeker variant. Covers the AutoMech version of "Jetfire," who is basically a bigger Seeker (and whose original toy--an corresponding mini--were the up-armored form of the same Veritech the original P-Hawk was based on).
>> Swooper - A unique Aerofighter AutoMech derived from the Mark I form of the Stinger LAM ('Mech and Fighter forms). Likely 50 tons, as it is basically a DynaBoG ("Dinobot") version of the Seeker, and covers "Swoop."
>> Grunt Drone - humanoid battle armor-sized robotic drone, visually closest to the Golem in shape and size. Covers the "Rumble" and "Frenzy" cassette deployers. Likely 2 tons as well.
>> Flight Drone - Micro-Fighter robotic drone, visually closest to the Aeshna fighter (use the Micro-scale mini, of course). Covers "Laserbeak" cassette deployer. Likely 1.5-2 tons. No more than 3. Bust out the ultra-light Support Vehicle rules to make that one!
>> Quad Drone - quad battle armor-sized robotic drone, visually closest to the Rottweiler in shape and size. Covers "Ravage," and likely 1 ton.
>> Triad - Rare emplacement-type AutoMech, typically deployed in groups of 3, visually closest to the turret of an Oro heavy tank. Probably 20 tons in mass, and represents the three Decepticons who comprised "Reflector" (called "Refractor" these days, as I understand it).
>> Dozer - A Wheeled AutoMech type used as part of a special team of DemoCons collectively known as Contructors, visually most similar to the Apollo ('Mech), but with vehicle forms that vary individually by function (Turhan, Indra, and Coolant Truck in this case). Likely 40 tons in mass apiece, they respectively cover the Constructicons "Scrapper," "Long Haul," and "Mixmaster."
>> Grinder - A tracked AutoMech type that, with the aforementioned Dozers and a Lifter named "Hooker-D," rounds out the DemoCon Constructors. Visually similar to the Beowulf (a beefed-up Mongoose 'Mech, if you will), with vehicle forms akin to the Mithras and the Zorya light tanks. Likely 45 tons. Covers the Constructicons "Bonecrusher," and "Scavenger," respectively.
>> Sector - The most common chassis type among the InterSect Confederacy (allies of the DemoCons), these are Bestial AutoMechs derived from the Quickdraw ('Mech), with quad modes resembling the Stalking Spider and/or the Fire Scorpon. Coming in around 60 tons, they cover the Insecticons "Sharpnel" and "Bombshell"...or whatever they're being called these days.
>> Hopper - The next most common chassis among the ISC is another Bestial AutoMech derived from the Spider ('Mech), which fittingly resembles the Tarantula 'Mech in Quad mode. This 40-ish tonner covers the Insecticon "Kickback."
* Worth noting, perhaps, is that the DynaBoG and InterSect Confederacy are lower-tech than their corresponding allies, and thus should probably be using IndustrialMech components, like Grimdark does.
I'm getting the shakes now, so I'll call it a day here and leave this rambling post for you guys to discuss.
- Herb
And/Or PrimitiveMech components?
Have a good rest. :beer: :thumbsup:
Gotcha covered: Syberian Spybird recon drone (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/non-combat-vehicles/syberia-spybird-recon-drone/). At 3 tons on the dot, fits perfectly into one of the VeeMech/Sounder cargo holds.
and a thick russian accent..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHVE5j4I0L8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHVE5j4I0L8)
OK, I've got some renaming and a little shifting around to do on versions. Y'now, you could also split the slower Sounder/VeeMech ones based on the Thunderbolt from faster 60-tonners based on the Wolverine, too.
So, these are a bit more burly than the Ravage drones??
Gotcha covered: Syberian Spybird recon drone (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/non-combat-vehicles/syberia-spybird-recon-drone/). At 3 tons on the dot, fits perfectly into one of the VeeMech/Sounder cargo holds.
Shakes? Well, that's worrisome.
Welcome to the California Nebula says "No Primitive Components", and implies lesser factions use Industrial components instead, but YMMV. :)
Very cool. I can see wanting to be closer to BT than TF. So I can understand no combiners and planet-size transformers. I don't know about trimodal and triple changers being excluded though. I'm also not sure why quads and tripods are excluded from so many categories.
We have Sky Lynx for a Quad AeroMech. I've also seen a custom tripod aerialbot that converted into a Focke-Wulf Triebflügel. I wish I could find the picture. :-[ It was cool though. All the aerialbots were german fighters.
Very cool! Thanks! :thumbsup: If IronWind Metals ever made minis of more civilian style vehicles would your selections change any? Like the Saturnus for Mirage
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Saturnus_V and the Simca for Rachet and Ironhide https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Simca ?
Makes sense. A lot of the Seekers are just variants of each other.
Sounds cool. I just figured Soundwave would be an Enplacement mech but a wheeled vehicle is cool.
Their not having an internal structure is a bit of a problem. :( But I love being able to use the Cassettes.
Primus Optimal overweight for a wheeled automech?
Would Swooper be better as an AirMech and not a true FighterMech?
Would Quad Drones like Slugfest, Zaur, and Ramhorn be heavier drone types than Ravage?
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Zaur_(G1)
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ramhorn_(G1)
Would biped Drones like Overkill and Dial be heavier than Rumble and Frenzy Drones?https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Overkill_(G1)
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Dile
and a thick russian accent..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHVE5j4I0L8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHVE5j4I0L8)
I like, but was this built as a VTOL or a jet? I'm not sure a jet can run by solar power and batteries.
Yeah. Not sure what causes them; it seems mostly to come from having coffee, but not enough food, and then getting intensely active in something, which could be anything from shoveling snow or laying flooring, or typing a lengthy section of material, or just plain talking. The usual solution is to get an infusion of sugar, which I really don't like to do too much, as I prefer NOT to tempt diabetes any more than I already have....
Trimodal units in BT are hybrid modes, a-la AirMechs, which are more like stopping half-way through the normal transformation process, while the actual Triple-Changers are supposed to be three very different forms. The issue THERE is that some parts would thus have two or more slots necessary to support two alt modes--such as jets AND tracks in Blitzwing's legs--if we wanted to be faithful to the franchises. This creates too many complications for me, and so I left the Triple-Changer functionality out, and instead decided that if we really wanted to represent all forms of a multi-changer, we could just make two AutoMechs with similar 'Mech forms (such as a Seeker-based "Blitz Seeker," and a Tankus-based "Blitzer Tankus" to cover Blitzwing). I'm pretty sure I head some good reasons for leaving out Tripods and Quads from some forms, likely based on where I put the Conversion gear slots, and how to deal with extraneous limbs.
Eww. Sky Lynx! Honestly, I see him as a DropShip anyway, and thus non-transformable. (And, if you go with my recommendation above for triple-changers, this is one way to deal with Astrotrain's shuttle alt mode as well.)
What the hell did I just watch? ???Beast wars was a bit of a trip, even ignoring the early CGI. (Was done by the same studio as reboot, iirc.. so pretty cutting edge for the time and budget) weird mysteries, silly plots, continuity snarls, time travel, (new)Megatron being an almost Shakespearean ham..
Yeah. Not sure what causes them; it seems mostly to come from having coffee, but not enough food, and then getting intensely active in something, which could be anything from shoveling snow or laying flooring, or typing a lengthy section of material, or just plain talking. The usual solution is to get an infusion of sugar, which I really don't like to do too much, as I prefer NOT to tempt diabetes any more than I already have....
Welcome to the California Nebula says "No Primitive Components", and implies lesser factions use Industrial components instead, but YMMV. :)
Yeah, as the AutoMechs branch off from Star League-era tech and so many are built to be convertible, they've progressed past Primitive tech, but they may use Industrial gear instead.
Trimodal units in BT are hybrid modes, a-la AirMechs, which are more like stopping half-way through the normal transformation process, while the actual Triple-Changers are supposed to be three very different forms. The issue THERE is that some parts would thus have two or more slots necessary to support two alt modes--such as jets AND tracks in Blitzwing's legs--if we wanted to be faithful to the franchises. This creates too many complications for me, and so I left the Triple-Changer functionality out, and instead decided that if we really wanted to represent all forms of a multi-changer, we could just make two AutoMechs with similar 'Mech forms (such as a Seeker-based "Blitz Seeker," and a Tankus-based "Blitzer Tankus" to cover Blitzwing). I'm pretty sure I head some good reasons for leaving out Tripods and Quads from some forms, likely based on where I put the Conversion gear slots, and how to deal with extraneous limbs.
Eww. Sky Lynx! Honestly, I see him as a DropShip anyway, and thus non-transformable. (And, if you go with my recommendation above for triple-changers, this is one way to deal with Astrotrain's shuttle alt mode as well.)
Probably.
So much so, that there's basically no point even giving them different minis at all, unlike how I handled two very cosmetically different Tankuses.
In many subsequent lines, Soundwave got basically an SUV/Armored Van alt mode, and continues to do so today. this gives him agency and I tend to side with that when it comes to making AutoMechs that one might see on the battlefield.
At their size, their internal structure is basically the core robotics, which can't sustain tactical-scale damage without basically coming apart, much like how the meaty human operators of said battlesuits do.
He's always the big guy who can go toe to toe with MechaTankus; 100 tons or bust! :)
I *did* consider it, but ultimately went with a fighter mode because his landing legs were stubby enough to be gear, rather than full legs. At least on the classic toy I have....
Probably. Those might fit the Shedu/Fenrir types, but they weren't in Season 1, so I didn't get to them.
Nah. I mean, I already maxed out Rumble and Frenzy's weights, so Overkill and Dile would just be bottom heavy versions of them, or built as quads.
- Herb
Jack Class Wheeled AutoMech
Mass: 50 tons
Chassis: Earthwerks SHD
Power Plant: Magna 250
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Maximilian 43
Armament:
1 Medium Laser
1 LRM 5
1 ER Large Laser
Manufacturer: Syberian Industrial Output
Primary Factory: Syberia
Communication System: O/P 300 COMSET
Targeting & Tracking System: O/P 2000A
Introduction Year: 2750
Tech Rating/Availability: E/E-F(F*)-D-D
Cost: 4,149,500 C-bills
Type: Jack Class Wheeled AutoMech
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 50
Battle Value: 1,113
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 5
Engine 250 Fusion 12.5
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Double Heat Sink 10 [20] 0
Gyro 3
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor 152 9.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 16 23
Center Torso (rear) 8
R/L Torso 12 18
R/L Torso (rear) 6
R/L Arm 8 16
R/L Leg 12 16
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
LRM 5 Ammo (24) RT 1 - 1.0
LRM 5 RT 1 2 2.0
CASE RT 1 - 0.5
ER Large Laser LT 2 12 5.0
Medium Laser RA 1 3 1.0
Quirks: Battle Fists, Rugged (1 Point), Ubiquitous (Syberia)
Streaker Class Wheeled AutoMech
Mass: 55 tons
Chassis: Earthwerks GRF
Power Plant: CoreTek 275
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Starshield A
Armament:
1 ER PPC
1 LRM 5
Manufacturer: Syberian Industrial Output
Primary Factory: Syberia
Communication System: Neil 6000
Targeting & Tracking System: Octagon Tartrac System C
Introduction Year: 2750
Tech Rating/Availability: E/E-F(F*)-D-D
Cost: 4,687,407 C-bills
Type: Streaker Class
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 55
Battle Value: 1,140
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 5.5
Engine 275 Fusion 15.5
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Double Heat Sink 10 [20] 0
Gyro 3
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor 144 9
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 18 18
Center Torso (rear) 7
R/L Torso 13 18
R/L Torso (rear) 6
R/L Arm 9 14
R/L Leg 13 17
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
LRM 5 Ammo (24) RT 1 - 1.0
LRM 5 RT 1 2 2.0
CASE RT 1 - 0.5
ER PPC RA 3 15 7.0
Quirks: Battle Fists, Rugged (1 Point), Ubiquitous (Syberia), Jettison-Capable Weapon (ER PPC)
Hounder Class Wheeled AutoMech
Mass: 60 tons
Chassis: Crucis-AM
Power Plant: Vlar 300
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Maximillian 60
Armament:
1 Medium Laser
1 SRM 6
1 ER Large Laser
Manufacturer: Syberian Industrial Output
Primary Factory: Syberia
Communication System: Garret T11-b
Targeting & Tracking System: Sync Tracker(39-42071)
Introduction Year: 2750
Tech Rating/Availability: E/E-F(F*)-D-D
Cost: 5,176,960 C-bills
Type: Hounder Class
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 60
Battle Value: 1,185
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 6
Engine 300 Fusion 19
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Double Heat Sink 10 [20] 0
Gyro 3
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor 152 9.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 20 20
Center Torso (rear) 7
R/L Torso 14 20
R/L Torso (rear) 6
R/L Arm 10 16
R/L Leg 14 16
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
CASE LT 1 - 0.5
SRM 6 LT 2 4 3.0
SRM 6 Ammo (15) LT 1 - 1.0
Medium Laser HD 1 3 1.0
ER Large Laser RA 2 12 5.0
You need to get that checked out. At minimum, pick up a cheap heart/blood oxygen monitor (the type that goes over your finger) off Amazon or something and, next time this happens, check your pulse and blood oxygen level.
I have a suspicion that either your pulse rate is spiking, which happened to my mother, who's diabetic, in similar circumstances, and forced her to give up caffeine recently. It's also similar, though, to an issue I had recently, though, where my blood oxygen level would drop low. Having that information during an episode provides two additional data points you can provide a doctor. And, if you can, you're going to want to see a doctor - this is the kind of problem you want to get checked out before it snowballs.
The idea of triple-changers give me headaches.
Though the SDF-1... >:D
Not good. Please be careful.
In the case of Swoop I just wonder if AirMech to Mech would be better as they don't seem to fly as fast as Seekers.
Figuring out where to put all the crits is a problem. I have done the similar mech different vehicle thing but I still wonder if triple changers would be possible.
FighterMechs don't have crits for conversion equipment so that'd free up a slot in each leg for jump jets. The other taken by tracks. So Blitzer could be possible. Broadside would have floats in each side torso for his ship mode and still have room in his legs for jump jets. AutoMechs like Springs and Sandstorm though could just need rotors as Wheeled and VTOL Mechs already have conversion equipment slots. So they could would also have wheel slots and Rotor slots. I think it'd work. I'm usually trying to find a way to get motive systems either all in the legs or the arms to better fit their TF art/toys.
AutoMech Conversion Equipment Table
Item Number of Critical Slots and Location
Fighter/WiGE AutoMechs
Landing Gear 3 (1 per Torso location)
Avionics 3 (1 Head, 1 per Side Torso)
Fuel 1 per ton of fuel (any location)*
Jump Jets 1 per Jump MP (Leg and Torso locations only)
Improved Jump Jets 2 per 2 Jump MP (Leg and Torso locations only)
Vehicle AutoMechs
Conversion Gear 4 (1 per Arm/Leg)**
Wheels 4 (1 per Arm/Leg of wheel-based AutoMechs only)
Tracks 4 (1 per Arm/Leg of track-based AutoMechs only)
Hover Fans 4 (1 per Arm/Leg of hovercraft AutoMechs only)
Floats 4 (1 per Side Torso/Leg of surface naval AutoMechs only)
UMU 1 per UMU MP (Leg and Torso locations only, submersible AutoMechs only)
VTOL AutoMechs
Conversion Gear 4 (1 per Arm/Leg)**
Rotors 1 per VTOL MP (Leg and Torso locations only)
Bestial AutoMechs
Conversion Gear 2 (1 per Side Torso)
Emplacement AutoMechs
Conversion Gear 4 (1 per Arm/Leg)
*The first free ton of fuel does not require a critical slot, and is considered to be internal to the engine.
**May be reduced to 2 slots (in the legs/rear legs only) if the unit forgoes its turret-rotation ability.
Yeah, not my favorite either. I was thinking more this guy. I forgot he had a biped mode too. Still, if only bimodal Automechs are possible, there's a Seeker that converts to a QuadMech.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Dropshot_(Armada) (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Dropshot_(Armada))
I have done that for Astrotrain. Mostly though I've worked on his train form. The shuttle part is just a shuttle looking fighter.
Yeah. It kind of make it easier as each variant is a different Seeker. Trying to keep the weight the same with different weapons is trickier. Especially since a lot of weapons don't have a BT version.
That's cool. Plus it eliminates changing size as it converts. ;D
I figured a robotic structure for BA would get the same 1 point the fleshy gets.
Makes sense. How about Cutthroat and Divebomb? https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Cutthroat_(G1) (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Cutthroat_(G1))
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Divebomb_(G1) (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Divebomb_(G1))
Any idea about a Beetle with a trailer that turns into jump jets and a partial wing?
https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/f/f9/Bumblebeeclassicstoy.jpg (https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/f/f9/Bumblebeeclassicstoy.jpg)
When my pulse rate spikes, that feels different. I have seen my doctors multiple times over this throughout the years, and my blood is regularly tested as I'm a high risk for diabetes with a family history of it. To date, all my tests have kept coming back normal, and the doctors are at a bit of a loss. My own observations eventually tracked it to my coffee use; no other caffeine sources seem to trigger it, though, and enough less-sugary foods do tend to ward off these effects if I have enough with my coffee. This has been going on for well over a decade by now.
No! Bad! *squirts you in the face with a water bottle* (SDF-1 as an AutoMech would basically be a Caspar; no transformation, but if you wanted to really have fun with the parallels, the carrier arms could be carrier DropShips, instead of an integral part of the ship design, and you could resort to having heavy 'Mechs walk all over the hull to act like all those destroid gun batteries SDF-1 had.)
Although they do flap wings and often seem slower than the dedicated jets, many of the more detailed depictions of Swoop imply that he's still a jet. He may just have a slower Thrust than the Seekers, is all.
I simply felt it best not to delve into that, because any rules for them would probably hurt more than help the concept.
Well, in NebCal, conversion equipment slots run like this:
(snip)
...so your FighterMech does have quite a few conversion equipment slots, with the final count based on how much thrust and fuel you want them to have in flight mode. And with so many being "torso or leg only" slots, you can run out fast. It's not IMPOSSIBLE; it's just prohibitively expensive (I would also be thinking of slapping a triple changer with heavier conversion gear because UNLIKE a standard LAM, the third mode is not just a "semi-conversion" like AirMech mode, but a complete change in motive type. Otherwise, folks would might make ALL their convertibles into triple-changers.)
Ew! Armada crap! Get away from me with that garbage!
Tempting, yes, but the number of times they've used Astrotrain to transport other full-sized Transformers around, I feel an AutoMech version of shuttle mode would HAVE to be an aerodyne DropShip not too unlike a modified Leopard.
Sure, if you're trying to be 100% accurate, but again we're looking at BTech tech mimicking TF tech. Starscream's Null Rays should likely be Light PPCs, but most TF guns are just lasers in various flavors, and maybe some missiles.
Yerp!
Yerp!
I stuck to Season 1 of the cartoon series. When you go to fringe units seen only in the comics, you likely won't see much of my concern. BUT! In the event of a longer-legged pteranodon type, an AirMech-looking "Mech mode" may work in lieu of a standard Mech mode.
Oh, cute! But, nope. Not thinking on that for now.
- Herb
Does all coffee do that or just that brand?
Sure FighterMechs have some slots but they don't have any that require crits in the arms and legs like the other AutoMechs. That's were I think there's room for triple changers. I agree it'd be expensive, and space would run out really quick, so there wouldn't be many but I think it could be possible. Making the conversion system heavier makes sense but would the increased weight be based on the bimodal or trimodal conversion system? Or maybe it'd just be better to pay extra for the motive system? UMUs for floats and subs, Rotors for VTOLs, Wheels and Tracks using QuadVee rules. Hovers would still be an issue but could be based on vehicle's extra 10% for lift systems.
;D Yeah, Armada wasn't the best but Dropshot was based on an unreleased G1 triple changer toy.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:TFGDropshot.jpg (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:TFGDropshot.jpg)
Since he sized kept changing, why no both?
Not so much as 100% accurate but not quite so limited by BT either. I would have used Centurion Weapon Systems for Starscream's Null Rays but Light PPCs work. It's hard to tell since sometimes they fire single blasts other times they fire bursts and sometimes they have other effects.
Would biped BeastMechs with quad animal forms use crawling movement when in animal mode?
Would thunderbolt missile launchers (prototype or production) be among the post Star League equipment Automechs have access to? Or should Narc Launchers with post Star League Ammo be better?
Question: Would Headmasters / Power Master / Weapon Master fit in this? Battle Armor (Detachable - Remote) body?
They would solve minor problem investigating Human ruins in smaller spaces.
It doesn't seem to be brand-related.
As the NebCal rules are written now, conversion equipment weighs 5% for bestial conversions, 10% for emplacement conversions, and 15% for all other conversion types. For a triple changer, I would likely say "add 5% if the unit is to have a second non-Mech mode, regardless of the type chosen," which would make a bestial triple-changer double its conversion gear mass, while a two-vehicle triple-changer would need to clear 20% of its mass for conversion gear. The maximum unit weight would be set by the most restrictive alternate mode picked, so a Blitzwing (tank/fighter triple-changer) would be limited to 55 tons. AND the unit would need to allocate the conversion gear crits needed for both modes where they were prescribed, thus forcing the Blitzwing model to need to allocate 1 Landing Gear slot to all three torso locations, an Avionics slot to each side torso and the head, and any jump jets would need to go in the torso slots at 1 per jump MP, because.... the legs would be occupied by 1 Conversion gear and Tracks slot each, filling them up, while the arms would need 1 Conversion Gear and 1 Tracks slot each to retain turret rotation in vehicle mode. Any fuel beyond the first free ton will also need to go into the torsos at 1 slot per ton. That's a MINIMUM of 11 slots if you only put 1 jump jet on the thing. As Blitzwing's main cannon is in the turret, it needs to be put in one arm or the other to have that firing arc and hit location, and at least two more weapons must appear--1 in each side torso--to cover his wing-mounted weapons in fighter mode. The wing guns might be lasers, but the cannon is usually depicted as an actual tank gun, so that's an AC of some type (unless you want to actually mount a Rifle Cannon). Remembering that we have a maximum weight of 55 tons to work with here, and that we lost 11 of that to the ability to triple-change, another 5.5 tons to internal structure, 3 to the control systems, and an indeterminate amount to engine, jump jets, gyros, and armor.... what's left for guns, ammo, and heat sinks that would make this guy effective?
And what an ugly toy it was! ;)
That would be redundant. I'm liking the idea of a pair of AutoMechs--one a Wheeled convertible that vague resembles a train in vee mode (how often in the cartoons did Astrotrain really use tracks anyway?)--and the other a non-transforming aerodyne Mech transport, whose programming are so entwined with working together that they practically have a conjoined intelligence between them. The Wheeled AutoMech version always travels aboard the DropShip version, so they're always seen together, and they share a color scheme to underscore their shared identity, like a fighter pilot and his plane. In conversation, they even share the same voice, and habitually split the talking between them when communicating with others, so you can't even tell them apart over the radio. Bam! Astrotrain without having to make new rules!
The dumb thing about the CWS is that it's basically a system that hacks other Mechs via radio, the way Enterprise dismantled Reliant's shields in Star Trek II. It worked best only if a SLDF unit was facing another SLDF unit, otherwise it was far less reliable. And you DON'T want that kind of hackability in robots meant to fight each other, so why build in such a weakness? The CWS was really made for SLDF security against possible theft, and the folks who settled Syberia probably didn't see that as a problem until the machines were already fighting each other without their input.
Bestial AutoMechs transform between biped and quad movement modes and use whatever's appropriate to their form, but if you're planning to hack it so the machine never acts like it has a biped mode, yeah, your biped will be using crawling rules.
Narc Launchers would likely be better; T-Bolt missiles didn't come along until the Clan Invasion years, and--unlike the various alternate PPC types we've seen--they had no stated basis in SLDF-era prototypes.
Ultimately, it's not for me to dictate what happens on your tables, but the notion of the *-Master units was always that they were armored beings meshing with the Cybertronian to achieve their added functionality. Otherwise, they were basically deployer drones like Soundwave's cassettes. I don't think I even put rules for the BA drones in NebCal, but it's an easy enough reach as we've seen, without delving into Machina Domini tech, so I recommended it here for our Rumble/Frenzy expy. I would take the latter approach, rather than the Machina-Domini based *-Master approach. Keeps the meat out of play.
- Herb
I think I've got a Blitzwing Triple Changer. I need to assign armor values but I'll do that later. I am wondering about the turret though. Why is it in the arm?
I think I've got a Blitzwing Triple Changer. I need to assign armor values but I'll do that later. I am wondering about the turret though. Why is it in the arm?
Sounds cool. I still like the idea of an Astrotrain FighterMech who can deploy drones and then convert. But a large non converting Astrotrain shuttle that is linked to a converting TrainAutomech is cool too. :thumbsup: I'm not sure how many time Astrotrain actually traveled on the rails. I know he did but it wasn't a lot. If AutoMechs can have quirks, would giving Astrotrain and others a +1MP to cruising when traveling by rail be reasonable?
I don't remember any BA AutoMechs. I'm not sure HeadMasters and EngineMasters would work in BT as they're combiners. TargetMasters though are just drones that turn into guns, so who could use them would be limited to the AutoMech's lifting ability. The same would be for other GunMechs and EquipmentMechs too. A Megatron GunMech couldn't be more than 5.5 tons so a Seeker could pick him up. 2.5 tons, if he's only used with one hand. I'm not sure how they'd work in Drone Mode though. Would the Drone still have access to all it's Gun Mode weapons?
Because that's where the transforming table puts it. The logic was that the arms represent the broadest firing arc in Mech and vehicle modes, while the torsos represent most of the tank's main hull. The head also joins the turret in vehicle mode, but our theoretical Triple-changer has no slots free in that location at all due to the fighter mode requirements.
Sure! And since wheeled AutoMechs automatically gain +1 MP in vehicle mode already, that means AutoTrain gains +2 Cruise on tracks, or +1 Cruise off tracks when in vehicle mode, which can really offset some MP loss for towing anything like an actual train might.
There weren't any in NebCal. I steered clear of BA-scale drones, and the use of Mech rules limited your max sizes to 10 tons if you wanted something transformable (even then, I'm not sure you COULD get something that transformed effectively at that scale). But if I WERE to devise drone rules for BA, the discussion above is likely (*coughdefinitelycough*) how I'd do (*coughhavedonecough*) it. they just can't transform. And I always tended to see the various *-masters as combiners, even if they technically were, but more of an armored pilot/passenger who was electronically bonded to their chosen 'Mech. In other words, the *-Masters were just another version of the cassette gimmick. Taking THAT approach, our BA drones would just need cargo space set aside for them; the AutoMech would operate itself as normal. In BT terms, they'd just work like mechanized battle armor.
And I won't touch gun-mode transformers outside of making them emplacement batteries. MechaTankus and Shocker Tankus are tanks, Cat damn it! They don't need no Seeker to tell them where to shoot!
- Herb
| Blitzwing Tons Internal Structure 5.5 Conversion Equipment (Triple mode) Fighter/Tracked/Mech 11 Engine 110 3.5 Walking/Cruising 2 Running/Flanking 3 Sprinting/Overdrive 4 Safe Thrust 4 Max Thrust 6 Over Thrust 8 Heat Sinks 10 Gyro 2 Cockpit Drone 3 Fuel (80) Damage Threshold 18 Armor 112 7 IS AV Head 3 7 Center Torso 18 18/7 Right/Left Torso 13 14/6 Right/Left Arm 9 8 Right/Left Leg 13 12 Weapons and Equipment Medium Rifle Cannon 2RA 5 Ammo (18) 2RA 2 Small Vibrosword 1LA 3 Medium Laser 1RA 1 iNarc Missile Launcher 3LT 4 iNarc Missile Launcher 3RT 4 Ammo (8) 2CT 2 Improved Jump Jet 2LT,2RT 2 Landing Gear 1CT,1RT,1LT Avionics 1H,1RT,1LT Conversion Gear 1RA.1LA,1RL,1LL Tracks 1RA.1LA,1RL,1LL |
Why the medium rifle cannon? That seems...highly obsolete. Is it something specific to the Transformer it's based on? (I don't actually know which one that is).
Also, anyone have thoughts on the Jack (SHD) , Streamers (GRF) or Hounder (WVR) wheeled AutoMechs?
Blitzwing (G1) (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Blitzwing_(G1))
at a guess the rifle cannon was to give him a tank gun in his tank mode.
given they are often shown as energy weapons, you could probably get away with an ER laser.. and given their general accuracy in the show you could probably use a mechmortar. :P
edit: interesting idea, though i doubt you could use it in the story.. the 2005 IDW version of Astrotrain's shuttle mode looks to be the size and shape of a leopard class dropship. if you drop the idea of it having a mech mode*, you could probably have an AI controlled dropship for the DemoCon's.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:SouthOfHeaven-Astrotrain.jpg
(https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/0/05/SouthOfHeaven-Astrotrain.jpg)
*or, as might be more interesting.. the main AI is in the hull of the dropship, but it has a remote operated drone body that is a more conventional mech or VeeMech. which functionally allows it to be both a normal sized robot and a giant space ship without mass changing magic. and since syberian AI isn't as developed as a Caspar system, perhaps it can only really control one or the other at a time, so when the dropship is parked it can interact with the drone body, while the dronebody could be stored when it is operating as a dropship.
I think Small craft could be made to come very chunky aerodyne LAM. Skylinks had two brains as well, one does the walking and other flying or even the talking. It was in the show though I think them splitting apart would have to be dropped.
Jetfire would likely not be able to done that way unless aerotransport is a must. he did enlarge like Asrotrain had.
You know, I've been wondering, do the Drones of Syberia really possess distinctive 'heads' in the sense of thier inspiration? Especially given how emotive they tend to be in the media, as it seems to some kind of living or at least highly flexible metal.
Star League tech definitely would not be that advanced for such a detail, and actual faces seem to be an odd affectation for a mass produced product.
Also, mentally trying to figure out how to remove and replace the heads on the Wolverine and Griffin mechs is daunting, to say the least. ;)
I prefer the masked look that Optimus and Wheeljack had, especially for the heads, instead of the full facial features personally. Well, I'll see what I do when the minis arrive.
That's cool. I just wondered how an arm would act as a turret when it contains a wheel or other motive system. Are regular Mech turrets available?
That's cool. After thinking about it I suppose a Gestalt Drone and Interface Cockpit might work as a head but it adds more complication that I'd care to go.
Why the medium rifle cannon? That seems...highly obsolete. Is it something specific to the Transformer it's based on? (I don't actually know which one that is).
Also, anyone have thoughts on the Jack (SHD) , Streamers (GRF) or Hounder (WVR) wheeled AutoMechs?
edit: interesting idea, though i doubt you could use it in the story.. the 2005 IDW version of Astrotrain's shuttle mode looks to be the size and shape of a leopard class dropship. if you drop the idea of it having a mech mode*, you could probably have an AI controlled dropship for the DemoCon's.
*or, as might be more interesting.. the main AI is in the hull of the dropship, but it has a remote operated drone body that is a more conventional mech or VeeMech. which functionally allows it to be both a normal sized robot and a giant space ship without mass changing magic. and since syberian AI isn't as developed as a Caspar system, perhaps it can only really control one or the other at a time, so when the dropship is parked it can interact with the drone body, while the dronebody could be stored when it is operating as a dropship.
Hmm...can AutoMechs mount remote drone equipment and control other drones? Another question would be if AutoMechs don't have to have a Mech mode, can an AutoMech still convert? Right now, I'm thinking Primus Optimal with a trailer that converts to an emplacement with a remote controlled drone.
I wonder if AutoMechs have any technology from the Star Empire.
I think Small craft could be made to come very chunky aerodyne LAM. Skylinks had two brains as well, one does the walking and other flying or even the talking. It was in the show though I think them splitting apart would have to be dropped.
Jetfire would likely not be able to done that way unless aerotransport is a must. he did enlarge like Asrotrain had.
You know, I've been wondering, do the Drones of Syberia really possess distinctive 'heads' in the sense of thier inspiration? Especially given how emotive they tend to be in the media, as it seems to some kind of living or at least highly flexible metal.
Star League tech definitely would not be that advanced for such a detail, and actual faces seem to be an odd affectation for a mass produced product.
Also, mentally trying to figure out how to remove and replace the heads on the Wolverine and Griffin mechs is daunting, to say the least. ;)
I suppose the big transport version of Jetfire could be a 200 ton Superheavy LAM with the illegal quirk. Which would kind of work since he crashed a lot.
The drones faces vary between robotic and more lifelike. Since living metal isn't a BT thing, I figure the "living" faces are actually projected from a big TV screen where the Mechs cockpit viewport would be. I think a bigger question would be why drones would need distinct male and female forms in Mech Mode. My guess is marketing to female customers before the war started and the fleshlings left.
honestly? i'd do all of the above. some have articulated mechanical heads, some just have immoble faceplates (perhaps with eyes or other lights they flash as they speak), and some rely on display screens/holograms. perhaps have it be a sign of the age of the chassis design.. with viewscreens and articulated heads being older types dating back to the time during or not long after the humans were still around, and newer builds using the more simplified head designs due to the need to reduce the amount of resources spent on combatants. (since with no humans around the need for features meant to make interactions more comfortable with humans were limited)
Rattus Bestial Automech
Mass: 15 tons
Chassis: Standard Biped
Power Plant: 75 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
1 Medium Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-E
Cost: 1,183,810 C-bills
Type: Rattus
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Tonnage: 15
Battle Value: 379
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 1.5
Engine 75 Fusion 2
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sink 10 0
Gyro 1
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor 48 3
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 5
Center Torso 5 7
Center Torso (rear) 2
R/L Torso 4 4/6
R/L Torso (rear) 2
R/L Arm 2 4
R/L Leg 3 6
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
Heat Sink CT 1 - 1.0
Cargo RT 1 - 0.5
ECM Suite RT 2 - 1.5
2 Heat Sinks RT 2 - 2.0
Cargo LT 1 - 0.5
Remote Sensors/Dispenser LT 1 - 0.5
4 Heat Sinks LT 4 - 4.0
Medium Laser RA 1 3 1.0
Cynofelis Beastial Automech
Mass: 20 tons
Chassis: Standard Biped
Power Plant: 180 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 97.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 194.4 kph
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
1 Medium Pulse Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3150
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-D
Cost: 3,691,440 C-bills
Type: Cynofelis
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Tonnage: 20
Battle Value: 364
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 2
Engine 180 Fusion 7
Walking MP: 9
Running MP: 14(18)
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sink 10 0
Gyro 2
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor 24 1.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 4
Center Torso 6 3
Center Torso (rear) 1
R/L Torso 5 3
R/L Torso (rear) 1
R/L Arm 3 2
R/L Leg 4 2
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
Supercharger CT 1 - 1.0
Cargo RT 1 - 0.5
2 Heat Sinks RT 2 - 2.0
Cargo LT 1 - 0.5
Heat Sink LT 1 - 1.0
Medium Pulse Laser RA 1 4 2.0
Panthera Beastial Automech
Mass: 30 tons
Chassis: Standard Biped
Power Plant: 180 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 64.8 kph
Maximum Speed: 97.2 kph
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
1 ER Large Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3150
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-E
Cost: 2,251,340 C-bills
Type: Panthera
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Tonnage: 30
Battle Value: 588
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 3
Engine 180 Fusion 7
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sink 10 0
Gyro 2
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor 53 3.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 6
Center Torso 10 7
Center Torso (rear) 2
R/L Torso 7 8
R/L Torso (rear) 1
R/L Arm 5 4
R/L Leg 7 6
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
Cargo RT 1 - 0.5
Heat Sink RT 1 - 1.0
Chain Whip LA 2 - 3.0
Cargo LT 1 - 1.0
2 Heat Sinks LT 2 - 2.0
ER Large Laser RA 2 12 5.0
Silverback Beastial Automech
Mass: 40 tons
Chassis: Standard Biped
Power Plant: 120 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 32.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 54 kph
Jump Jets: Improved
Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
4 Small Laser
2 'Mech Mortar 2
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3150
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-E
Cost: 2,916,760 C-bills
Type: Silverback
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 40
Battle Value: 579
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 4
Engine 120 Fusion 4
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 5
Heat Sink 10 0
Gyro 2
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor 96 6
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 8
Center Torso 12 14
Center Torso (rear) 4
R/L Torso 10 12
R/L Torso (rear) 3
R/L Arm 6 8
R/L Leg 10 12
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
Improved Jump Jet CT 2 - 1.0
Airburst Mortar 2 Ammo (12) RT 1 - 1.0
'Mech Mortar 2 RT 2 2 5.0
2 Improved Jump Jets RT 4 - 2.0
Cargo RT 1 - 1.0
2 Heat Sinks RT 2 - 2.0
2 Small Lasers LA 2 1 1.0
Heat Sink LA 1 - 1.0
Shaped Charge Mortar 2 Ammo (12) LT 1 - 1.0
'Mech Mortar 2 LT 2 2 5.0
2 Improved Jump Jets LT 4 - 2.0
Cargo LT 1 - 1.0
2 Heat Sinks LT 2 - 2.0
2 Small Lasers RA 2 1 1.0
Heat Sink RA 1 - 1.0
Rhinokeros Bestial Automech
Mass: 60 tons
Chassis: Standard Biped
Power Plant: 240 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
2 Ultra AC/5
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-D
Cost: 4,791,360 C-bills
Type: Rhinokeros
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 60
Battle Value: 883
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 6
Engine 240 Fusion 11.5
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sink 10 0
Gyro 3
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor 120 7.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 20 18
Center Torso (rear) 5
R/L Torso 14 13
R/L Torso (rear) 4
R/L Arm 10 11
R/L Leg 14 16
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
Cargo RT 2 - 1.5
Ultra AC/5 Ammo (40) LA 2 - 2.0
Ultra AC/5 LA 5 1 9.0
Communications Equipment LT 4 - 4.0
Cargo LT 2 - 1.5
Heat Sink RL 1 - 1.0
Ultra AC/5 Ammo (40) RA 2 - 2.0
Ultra AC/5 RA 5 1 9.0
I like them. I saw that you went for making them as close to their original Mech models in terms of firepower, but of course, you probably know that just about every named AutoMech would likely have a unique weapon loadout of its own (Many Streaker-types--Bluestreak, Prowl, and Smokescreen, for instance--tend to have a pair of small laser-type weapons mounted on either side of their heads, while Jazz's shoulders are clear.) Also, definite credit where it's due: Hounder class is better than the generic "VeeMech" class I called them.
(based on what was my first real exposure to Transformers media, their addition to the netflix war for cybertron series giving the idea of them co-existing with the G1 types, and the fact that they're getting an origin film for the live action series this year..)
The beastmechs of Axilum
Located on Syberia's southern hemisphere, the bio-dome preserve of Axilum is a massive canyon similar to the Valles Marineris of Mars, which the creators domed over and converted into a nature preserve recreating Syberia's pre-colonization atmosphere and preserving a portion of the worlds otherwise extinct ecosystem. managing this gigantic zoo and defending its infrastructure from the warring factions of syberia are an entire faction of bestial automechs, the Axilun Management and Logistics force, or AxiMaLs. With alternate forms designed to allow them to travel within the nature preserve without unduely disrupting the massive and dangerous creatures within, AxiMaL automechs include many cosmetic features giving their bestial forms a more organic look, giving the impression massive terran and alien animals. however the emphasis the creators gave to the AxiMaL automechs limited the size and combat power, leaving them more vulnerable in warfare with the other factions of the planet, and their organic appearance is considered unsettling by most other automechs.
figuring out how to handle Predacons will be tricky. both lore wise and the fact many of them use alt modes that.. just don't really work well with the nebula california ruleset. so they'll require rather more effort for adaption.
Best not to think too hard about it; but as it happens, Mech turrets DO predate the Star League, so...
Same here. So let's not.
G1 Blitzwing, in his original toy specs, was said to shoot explosive shells from his main gun. Of course, those same specs also mentioned the launchers in his wings fire concussion missiles, and he has a sword and a gyrojet gun in robot mode, so... yeah.
I can see it, but again, I see remote-controlled drones as a vulnerability compared to on-board AIs.
G'nope. They don't even have FTL travel; It probably took a good hundred years for that Grimdark to land on Toreel for the opening fiction of NebCal to happen, so a trek to the much more distant systems of the Star Empire would have been possibly taken them more time than the AutoMechs collectively even existed.
Heheheh. Cute!
Sure, if you wanted to root it in human origins. That could work. (In at least one non-BT story I've written, the use of a digitally projected face on a robot shell was pretty much how a character gave his machine its personality. Granted, they did it in Robocop 2, but it makes perfect sense as a shortcut toward putting an expressive "human" face on a clunky mecha body.)
(based on what was my first real exposure to Transformers media, their addition to the netflix war for cybertron series giving the idea of them co-existing with the G1 types, and the fact that they're getting an origin film for the live action series this year..)
They're getting a movie? That's cool.well sort of.. the next installment of the live action franchise is supposed to be out either late this year or next year (i've seen conflicting dates given). Transformers: Rise of the Beasts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformers:_Rise_of_the_Beasts), in which Optimus Primal, Rhinox, Cheetor, and Airazor are currently slated to be included. concept art got leaked awhile back of what is likely Optimus Primal (https://cdn.thefpsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/transformers-rise-of-the-beasts-optimus-primal.jpg)
I like the write ups. They really capture the feel of them. I do wonder about the heat sinks though. I know Heat Sinks outside the engines take crits but you also have them taking weight. Fusion Engines come with 10 heat sinks so their weight wouldn't need to be added in. They could for ICEs though.they don't actually take up weight, it is just a quirk of the megameklab program. thankfully the bestial automechs are fairly simple, and i could use cargo slots as both crit space and tonnage for the conversion gear.
One possibility is the Predacons are an offshoot faction that was originally designed to protect the dome or, alternatively, were protectors of another dome, linked to the same faction that built the Democratic Congolomerate AutoMechs. They may seek to steal genetic samples from the AxiMal faction to attempt to use to reterraform the planet, rebuild their own dome, or may simply have been programmed to destroy AxiMal facilities due to their link to the Autonomous Barony of Primus.considered that. also considered having them be a sort of "internal dissent" faction sharing the same chassis selection but having their own ideas about how to proceed. like say, putting less priority on defending the ecosystem within a dome and more on mining operations to exploit minerals found within the canyon.
considered that. also considered having them be a sort of "internal dissent" faction sharing the same chassis selection but having their own ideas about how to proceed. like say, putting less priority on defending the ecosystem within a dome and more on mining operations to exploit minerals found within the canyon.
though i do like the idea that the AxiMaLs are aligned with the AutoBoP's, and the DemoCron's backing the other side.
well sort of.. the next installment of the live action franchise is supposed to be out either late this year or next year (i've seen conflicting dates given). Transformers: Rise of the Beasts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformers:_Rise_of_the_Beasts), in which Optimus Primal, Rhinox, Cheetor, and Airazor are currently slated to be included. concept art got leaked awhile back of what is likely Optimus Primal (https://cdn.thefpsreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/transformers-rise-of-the-beasts-optimus-primal.jpg)
they don't actually take up weight, it is just a quirk of the megameklab program. thankfully the bestial automechs are fairly simple, and i could use cargo slots as both crit space and tonnage for the conversion gear.
i figure that the flying types can be aeromechs (for the avian and pterosaur types), while the bug-flyers can be VTOL-mechs. honestly the hardest part if dinobot and BW-Megatron.. a velociraptor and Tyrannosaurus rex respectively. since their beast modes are bipeds as are their robot forms, they don't fit well. though i'm thinking i might want to take a closer look at Grimdark in the book, to see if he is still a T-rex like Grimlock, or if he got adapted.
Personally , use the generation ‘Mech you like the best. ;)For Groundwave's new body. Your using same rounded head for Griffin (assume the Nighthawk drone launches from there.) with similar radio antennas that Thunderbolt body he had was using with no LRM 5? Right?
Iirc he's got an external comm module instead of the LRM pod.
The head is probably replaced with an armored housing instead of a canopy, since the AI computer goes in it. The drone probably is stored behind a hatch on the chest off to one side.
For Groundwave's new body. Your using same rounded head for Griffin (assume the Nighthawk drone launches from there.) with similar radio antennas that Thunderbolt body he had was using with no LRM 5? Right?
Doing picture research, I kind of wish there wasn't a complete tech restriction or a list of "only can use specific weapons", as I'd totally see Thunderbolt-5s being a thing for many of the shoulder launchers.
Or I can just mentally picture the LRM being a single high explosive warhead that explodes within proximity and does damage like an LRM splash. 🤔
Basic layout is going to be Unseen Griffin. I've got a plastic Unseen Griffin I was planning to mod, but it's already painted up in Niops Association (ie. TH parade) colors: white, with blue and grey trim, so I'm loathe to modify it. Instead, I'm thinking of ordering an unpainted one off eBay, and use that one instead. Not sure how I want to handle the mods for it, other than using an Ostscout jump jet pack for the jump jets: I'd always intended Groundwave, in either form, to have folding satellite dishes, etc. On the GRF body they'd replace the LRM pack, on the VeeMech/TDR body, they replaced the SRM rack, though my plastic mini for Groundwave doesn't have the missile pod, either, and I haven't figured out how to do the antennas.I did make pick of the TDR version of Groundwave as the cover art for your story on the wiki.
The only stated restriction in the book is that, for the most part, they're limited to weapons developed by 2750 (well, 2751, since they've got ER PPCs), with the exception of melee weapons, but I know I wouldn't worry too much about that - Thunderbolt missile launchers don't seem like a huge stretch for local industry to come up with.
figuring out how to handle Predacons will be tricky. both lore wise and the fact many of them use alt modes that.. just don't really work well with the nebula california ruleset. so they'll require rather more effort for adaption.
Mirage is coming along nicely. Planning a chest part incorporating the nose fins, while keeping the driver area of the Zyphros as the Assassin's head. The turret will be repurposed as the stabilizer mount and rest of the body.
It is. I think ECCM would help but it's still vulnerable. The bright spot is that the Drone's Drone is more at risk than the Drone is.
That's cool. I just wondered as they do seem to posses Luminescent Vibro-Weapons, the IE knew how Blasters worked, and the shield technology dates back to the 21st century.
I like the write ups. They really capture the feel of them. I do wonder about the heat sinks though. I know Heat Sinks outside the engines take crits but you also have them taking weight. Fusion Engines come with 10 heat sinks so their weight wouldn't need to be added in. They could for ICEs though.
I could see thunderbolts and light AC's, since they're fairly straight forward.
Well, to be fair, what really is the point of a biped that transformers into another biped? Rule-wise, why would that even BE relevant? Even the idea of spending tonnage on conversion gear seems ludicrous at that point.
Now, as to Predacons: the spiders are easy enough conversions; I used them for the InterSectCon faction, after all [Tarantula for Black Arachnia, Stalking Spider for Tarantulus would be my picks for their beast modes]. And the Pred version of Scorponok would work pretty much the same way [Fire Scorpion would be perfect for his beast mode]. Pterasuar, meanwhile, is another Seeker-style variant, not unlike how I handled Swoop, though there's argument for the possibility that their flight mode looks more like an AirMech than a fighter [a Mk I Wasp would be my choice there, I think, using AirMech for his fight form and Mech mode for robot mode]. I *did* turn T-Rex style Grimlock into a quad in NebCal, of course, which would mean the same for Pred-Meg if you use the same approach, but considering how useful the forearms of either T-Rex 'bot--or the forearms of an actual T-Rex, for that matter--truly are, what are you really missing there?
Dinobot, if anyone, creates the most jarring offset, but even then, he's really just a smaller T-Rex with longer arms, so we'd be back to taking a Grimlock approach, but looking for sleeker models to get his Mech and Quad forms better in line. Perhaps the Cuirass or a classic Black Knight for 'Mech mode, and a Jaguar or Thunder Fox for quad mode.
Meanwhile, your Optimus Primal expy's beast mode could be represented by a Mandrill; it's humanoid, sure, but give it more of a hunch and the long arms are basically legs again. The rest have no issues going biped to quad, methinks.
- Herb
Stupid suggestion. Maybe a more duable combiner is bunch of mini-Veebots merging to form a assault sized Mech or Superheavy. That or drones attaching to a Veebot.
The Beast Wars Cartoon had it explained that the Maximals and Predacons would be in beast mode due to higher energon (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Energon#Beast_Era) radiation (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Energon_crystal) affecting their systems. So a similar method might be the Aximals/Predacons having circuitry that is more sensitive to local environmental conditions (whatever those are), requiring increased maintenance (or even circuit failures) if they are in robot mode for too long while outdoors. So Beast Mode would represent the transformers using a form of deployable protection that is weak against standard weapons damage, but strong vs the ambient environment. (Like the Interceptor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interceptor_Body_Armor) body armor vs MOPP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOPP_(protective_gear)) gear)
In their bases the outside environment is kept out so they can be in robot mode without suffering problems. Specialized equipment can be made in the base, carried in Beast Mode, the transformer changes into robot mode for special research in a single location, then the robot changes back into 'protected' mode for long-distance travel. The specialized equipment is hardened against the environment that is why it can survive long-duration.
(Also, the Beast Wars transformers were a lot smaller than the G1 transformers. See the episodes where Beast Wars Megatron was only slightly taller than Ravage, rather than towering over him.)its actually even more obvious when BW megatron finds the Ark and tries to change history by killing Optimus Prime before G1 even happened.
Well, to be fair, what really is the point of a biped that transformers into another biped? Rule-wise, why would that even BE relevant? Even the idea of spending tonnage on conversion gear seems ludicrous at that point.agreed for BT. it made a degree of sense in the transformers franchise given the different tech and setting involved (and the fact that a T rex or JP style velociraptor that became a robot made for a wicked cool toy) but for BT and Syberia if it doesn't add any practical mechanic effect it is a waste of conversion gear tonnage
Now, as to Predacons: the spiders are easy enough conversions; I used them for the InterSectCon faction, after all [Tarantula for Black Arachnia, Stalking Spider for Tarantulus would be my picks for their beast modes]. And the Pred version of Scorponok would work pretty much the same way [Fire Scorpion would be perfect for his beast mode]. Pterasuar, meanwhile, is another Seeker-style variant, not unlike how I handled Swoop, though there's argument for the possibility that their flight mode looks more like an AirMech than a fighter [a Mk I Wasp would be my choice there, I think, using AirMech for his fight form and Mech mode for robot mode]. I *did* turn T-Rex style Grimlock into a quad in NebCal, of course, which would mean the same for Pred-Meg if you use the same approach, but considering how useful the forearms of either T-Rex 'bot--or the forearms of an actual T-Rex, for that matter--truly are, what are you really missing there?more or less my thoughts for most of them. the insects generally are already covered, i just need to work up the designs. (and figure out how to represent the mass and crits of the extra legs and the tail options from the book in MML)
Dinobot, if anyone, creates the most jarring offset, but even then, he's really just a smaller T-Rex with longer arms, so we'd be back to taking a Grimlock approach, but looking for sleeker models to get his Mech and Quad forms better in line. Perhaps the Cuirass or a classic Black Knight for 'Mech mode, and a Jaguar or Thunder Fox for quad mode.
Meanwhile, your Optimus Primal expy's beast mode could be represented by a Mandrill; it's humanoid, sure, but give it more of a hunch and the long arms are basically legs again. The rest have no issues going biped to quad, methinks.
Yes, but that's getting redundant for a "species" of drones, IMO.
Luminescent vibros are just vibroblades with some kind of lighting gimmick attached to make them shine in the dark; it's cosmetic at best and easy enough for anyone to do. (Retractable energy blades are a total no-go, though.) IE worked out how blasters and shield technology worked, but in their estimation--and the gameplay rules--both were very limited technologies in the long term, what with shields being useless against non-energy weapons such as ACs, Gauss rifles, and missiles, and blasters suffering from cripplingly BAD ranges, near-complete ineffectiveness against BAR 5+, and a major to-hit penalty. Our Syberians have no need for such RejecTech. (Guess we know who'd win in THAT match-up now!)
For fusion plants, the formula for free sinks is still Rating/25, IIRC. Any more costs slots space, but any sinks counted "free with the engine type," like the 10 for all fusion plants, 5 for fission, and 1 for fuel cells--should be weight-free even if they take up slots. ICEs get no free slots or sinks, so each one would cost, but you only need them for energy weapons. The trouble there, of course, is that you'd ALSO need power amps for said weapons when using ICEs.
Light ACs, at least. But the T-Bolts... well, they really SHOULD have been available in the way-back times, but haven't been thanks to canon. There's room for something "primitive" to fit the bill, I'm sure, like a missile hardpoint, and your story can always handwave something, I'm sure, that the humans came up with along the way too. I mean, it wasn't like all these alternate conversion-capable non-LAM Mechs existed before they came along...- Herb
The Beast Wars Cartoon had it explained that the Maximals and Predacons would be in beast mode due to higher energon (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Energon#Beast_Era) radiation (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Energon_crystal) affecting their systems. So a similar method might be the Aximals/Predacons having circuitry that is more sensitive to local environmental conditions (whatever those are), requiring increased maintenance (or even circuit failures) if they are in robot mode for too long while outdoors.
(snip)
For Scorponok, it could be where the robot mode has regular hands, while in Beast Mode the myomers and joints are re-positioned to effectively form Claws, imposing a 'Piloting' penalty in cases of fine manipulation. So robot mode provides fingers and protects the environmental armor, while beast mode has less precise manipulators but allows them to travel outdoors for longer periods of time. (Of course Scorponok also had the annoying tendency to use his claws when typing on computers)
(Also, the Beast Wars transformers were a lot smaller than the G1 transformers. See the episodes where Beast Wars Megatron was only slightly taller than Ravage, rather than towering over him.)
The detail with that idea for the mini-Veebots is the strength/sturdiness needed for the linkage equipment required to transfer stress from an arm-Veebot to the torso-Veebot(s).
Still, a mini-Veebot acting as an additional turret (such as the Minicons (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Mini-Con)) would allow a Veebot to engage one target by itself, while the turret Veebot could engage a second target with no secondary target modifiers. Or where a full size Veebot might not have a Beagle Active Probe, but a Minicon might have a BA-scale sensor pack and feed that data to the Veebot. These structural, power, and data connections would need their own mass and crit slots though.
the explanation i went with for Syberia (if you read the fluff i posted ) is that the designs were originally created to help manage the wildlife of the dome. being made to look like animals (including stuff like faux fur and skin) was a way to help the bots blend in more with the local megafauna and thus not stress out of the wildlife they were managing quite as much. and since the death of the humans, they've generally kept those features due to the limited creative inertia of syberian AI's. (much the same way that the AutoBoP's and DemoCons continue to fight the old wars and emulate the human societies that created them. the AxiMaL's are just ones from a society focused on ecological preservation and terraforming.)
mostly i just figured it would be fun to toss some more bestial automech options into the mix, and a third (or fifth?) faction that wasn't closely aligned with the existing AutoBoP and DemoCon groups.
I never understood that since TFs consume energon.
Maybe have BeastMechs be more vulnerable to ECM, Centurion WS and Tasers in Mech Mode?
I missed that one but then I missed a lot of that series.
Turrets I can kind of see but it should take a couple turns after the VeeBot converts. One to board the Bot and one to convert. Other combiners like I'm not sure about. I can't see how they'd combine without flying or being connected in a bay. I can see a larger drone going prone and separating into smaller drones more than I can see smaller drone combining into a bigger one. Crits and weight for connections would be good too. :thumbsup:
The Beast Wars Cartoon had it explained that the Maximals and Predacons would be in beast mode due to higher energon (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Energon#Beast_Era) radiation (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Energon_crystal) affecting their systems. So a similar method might be the Aximals/Predacons having circuitry that is more sensitive to local environmental conditions (whatever those are), requiring increased maintenance (or even circuit failures) if they are in robot mode for too long while outdoors. So Beast Mode would represent the transformers using a form of deployable protection that is weak against standard weapons damage, but strong vs the ambient environment.
In their bases the outside environment is kept out so they can be in robot mode without suffering problems. Specialized equipment can be made in the base, carried in Beast Mode, the transformer changes into robot mode for special research in a single location, then the robot changes back into 'protected' mode for long-distance travel. The specialized equipment is hardened against the environment that is why it can survive long-duration.
For Scorponok, it could be where the robot mode has regular hands, while in Beast Mode the myomers and joints are re-positioned to effectively form Claws, imposing a 'Piloting' penalty in cases of fine manipulation. So robot mode provides fingers and protects the environmental armor, while beast mode has less precise manipulators but allows them to travel outdoors for longer periods of time. (Of course Scorponok also had the annoying tendency to use his claws when typing on computers)
(Also, the Beast Wars transformers were a lot smaller than the G1 transformers. See the episodes where Beast Wars Megatron was only slightly taller than Ravage, rather than towering over him.)
The detail with that idea for the mini-Veebots is the strength/sturdiness needed for the linkage equipment required to transfer stress from an arm-Veebot to the torso-Veebot(s).
Still, a mini-Veebot acting as an additional turret (such as the Minicons (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Mini-Con)) would allow a Veebot to engage one target by itself, while the turret Veebot could engage a second target with no secondary target modifiers. Or where a full size Veebot might not have a Beagle Active Probe, but a Minicon might have a BA-scale sensor pack and feed that data to the Veebot. These structural, power, and data connections would need their own mass and crit slots though.
the explanation i went with for Syberia (if you read the fluff i posted ) is that the designs were originally created to help manage the wildlife of the dome. being made to look like animals (including stuff like faux fur and skin) was a way to help the bots blend in more with the local megafauna and thus not stress out of the wildlife they were managing quite as much. and since the death of the humans, they've generally kept those features due to the limited creative inertia of syberian AI's. (much the same way that the AutoBoP's and DemoCons continue to fight the old wars and emulate the human societies that created them. the AxiMaL's are just ones from a society focused on ecological preservation and terraforming.)
mostly i just figured it would be fun to toss some more bestial automech options into the mix, and a third (or fifth?) faction that wasn't closely aligned with the existing AutoBoP and DemoCon groups.
its actually even more obvious when BW megatron finds the Ark and tries to change history by killing Optimus Prime before G1 even happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9t7G_lHeiY
(the maximals manage to fix things and prevent history from changing.. mostly)
a detail i've largely dropped to avoid having to create BA and protomech sized automech rules. but that is why i went with the lighter masses for their units (being about 1/2 the mass of comparable roles in the AutoBoP's and DemoCons), and i'd generally say they should all have the "low profile" quirk plus whatever negative quirks that fit the chassis to balance it out. (non standard parts for example would be an obvious one)
(this actually is a little closer to the war for cybertron trilogy depiction, where in Kingdom the beast wars characters are shown as being much closer in size to the G1 bots, though mass shifting was definitely in play in that for rattrap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEJ9WpZk45Q
more or less my thoughts for most of them. the insects generally are already covered, i just need to work up the designs. (and figure out how to represent the mass and crits of the extra legs and the tail options from the book in MML)
that said what might make a fun way to do the minis would be to get some cheap plastic animal toys to cut up and hang some parts of off light and medium mechs of the roughly right sizes.
and yeah, i was thinking that i could probably just swap the animal mode to a quadruped where needed. perhaps some of the local beasts lean towards the old Victorian dinosaur style critters:
(http://www.cotswold-homes.com/images/content/issue-14-autumn-2014/articles/misunderstood-monster/misunderstood-monster-2-6x4.jpg)
I suppose it would be but there were different types of drones during the Star League too. Now that I think about it though, how much do non mech AI's weigh? Those that convert and those that don't? I'm guessing a 3 ton AI could replace regular control systems but what about smaller AutoMech Drones? Would regular drone equipment be good enough for their AIs since they wouldn't have to tonnage for a 3 ton AI?
So Luminecent Vibro-Weapons are okay as long as they're not retractable? I suppose other Star Empire equipment is limited but so is some BT equipment. In a way their Shields are better than the IS's Blue Shield System. It protects against all energy weapons, not just PPCs. Laser Cannons do pack a punch and are lighter even if they aren't that accurate. Not that weapons fire was all that accurate in the animation. Some TFs also had shields. If allowed they wouldn't quite be the same since the SE shields seem to be for Aerospace only. There also weren't that many, that I can remember, so a few AutoMechs with RejecTech should be possible. They'd be the reason why they're tech was rejected. Of course now I really want a book full of RejecTech. ;D
That's what I thought, which is why I was surprised to see tonnage listed for them. I didn't know MegaMekLab did that. You need power amps with fuel cells too. And support engines of all kinds need heat sinks. Would they be really ancient Automechs?
How about a more primitive version of the Narc Launcher? It's just a just a big single tube missile launcher, like the Thunderbolt. It just has high tech homing equipment. Remove than and you've got something like a Thunderbolt.
I never understood that since TFs consume energon.
Maybe have BeastMechs be more vulnerable to ECM, Centurion WS and Tasers in Mech Mode?
True, I was going with a reason for Herb as to why the original Beast Wars crew had to remain in beast mode most of the time. Their choice was survival, your setup is to prevent panic.
You are right, having the extra faction would be fun
It could be compared to drinking from a garden hose vs drinking from a fire hose. Or how some food needs to be cooked before eating (and raw energon needs to be processed before consuming)
But your idea about vulnerability to EM effects would be good. Perhaps PPCs would be added to the list?
For combining into a larger bot (i.e. Devastator), you'd need the legs to form first, then the lower torso bot climbs the legs and transforms, then the upper torso bot climbs and transforms, then each of the arm bots climb and transform.
The fun part is that this would technically be a triple-changer bot, plus if the combined transformer is over 100 tons then each of the smaller bots would likely need to use the SuperheavyMech construction rules (i.e. 20% of mass as internal structure). So you would have a BIG Mech, but the available tonnage percentage would be much lower than if it was a single Mech. It means that whoever develops it can use existing factories to make the smaller combiner bots instead of needing to develop a larger factory to make the single larger bot (I figure a factory that makes six 50-ton Mechs per month would be cheaper than a factory that can make a single 300-ton Mech every month).
Never liked that version of Voltron. Combiners always seemed an iffy approach to me, but the 20 vehicles to make one robot screamed "too many ways to defeat this thing!"
Maybe, but TBH, combiner 'Mechs would just be a whole bunch of extra rules and handicaps I wouldn't want to touch anyway. What happens if you blow the leg or arm off just one of the component Mechs, rendering it incapable of transformation? Now it's out of commission, and so is your mega-Mech. To keep them all useful in BT, I would just treat a combiner as a well-coordinated team of Mechs; you get more tactical options and firepower that way, anyway, and don't need to come up with a ton of specialized rules.
- Herb
It could be compared to drinking from a garden hose vs drinking from a fire hose. Or how some food needs to be cooked before eating (and raw energon needs to be processed before consuming)
But your idea about vulnerability to EM effects would be good. Perhaps PPCs would be added to the list?
Beast Wars Megatron meets Ravage - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHVE5j4I0L8
Beast Wars Megatron meets G1 Optimus - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9t7G_lHeiY (this the Season 2 finale)
For combining into a larger bot (i.e. Devastator), you'd need the legs to form first, then the lower torso bot climbs the legs and transforms, then the upper torso bot climbs and transforms, then each of the arm bots climb and transform.
The fun part is that this would technically be a triple-changer bot, plus if the combined transformer is over 100 tons then each of the smaller bots would likely need to use the SuperheavyMech construction rules (i.e. 20% of mass as internal structure). So you would have a BIG Mech, but the available tonnage percentage would be much lower than if it was a single Mech. It means that whoever develops it can use existing factories to make the smaller combiner bots instead of needing to develop a larger factory to make the single larger bot (I figure a factory that makes six 50-ton Mechs per month would be cheaper than a factory that can make a single 300-ton Mech every month).
In BattleTech terms, I think I'd be hard-pressed to come up with a tech that only works in one mode and not the other from a purely environmental standpoint. I mean, motive systems vary with conversion-capable units only because the very act of conversion re-orients the motive systems into their necessary configuration for optimal use (wheels and tracks to the ground, rotors and jets to appropriate thrust vectors, even extra legs to the ground, and so forth), but armor, structure, and weapons tend to retain their utility in both modes or we would be just asking for trouble in combat. The same tends to go for the various types of environmental sealing that (again) is a built-in feature of all BattleMech designs (and a good number of IndustrialMechs).
If there's one thing I ignored outright in making a BT-to-TF ruleset, it was scale and size changing. That tech just doesn't exist in BT, and the ProtoMech class was definitely not available to the Syberians. (I'm straining things as it is to put BA-scale drones in, but if your Beast Wars drones happened to use those, they'd last about a minute in a crossover fight and would never have a transforming capacity--another bridge I wouldn't cross there.) So, letting them just be lighter Mechs is perfectly fine to me.
Never liked that version of Voltron. Combiners always seemed an iffy approach to me, but the 20 vehicles to make one robot screamed "too many ways to defeat this thing!"
I think we can agree to skip the time travel arc. ;)
You're basically talking about the robotic/remote-controlled drone systems already in TacOps and Campaign Ops, I believe (or wherever they are now; my intimate knowledge of rulebooks has decayed in the last decade). Aside from the rules we kludged in this thread already for BA-drones, which basically just say all human control systems are now drone control systems, non AutoMech drone systems should be unchanged from their standard rules.
At the 'Mech scale, a luminescent vibroblade is going to be just a vibroblade in terms of damage and whatnot. We have rules for those already, and there's no need to remake the wheel. (The human-scaled versions used in NebCal for the Star Empire setting were just for them.) As to the rest, that's up to whatever you really want on your table. I can only speak to the "canon" I wrote for NebCal, and as I wrote it, the AutoMechs don't have Star Empire tech (yet).
More like AutoMechs based on IndustrialMechs, I'd say.
We already discussed that, didn't we? We're basically describing an explosive Narc munition is all.
Others covered this, I know, but the gist was, as Primal put it in episode one: "This is too much of a good thing." The pre-human Earth was basically so heavily irradiated by raw energon that the Cybertronians would have been breathing it in constantly. If we literally breathed our food in with every inhalation, how quickly do you imagine we'd all have diabetes?
Once more, I'd call that reaching. In this case, you're basically building a handicap into their very gimmick, which makes it even weirder they would want it!
Oh, right! And after the superweapon/second moon was used, most of that raw energon was stabilized or vaporized, too. (Which made it practically unnecessary to have beast modes, but by then, half the beast forms were chrome plated anyway, so...)
Maybe, but TBH, combiner 'Mechs would just be a whole bunch of extra rules and handicaps I wouldn't want to touch anyway. What happens if you blow the leg or arm off just one of the component Mechs, rendering it incapable of transformation? Now it's out of commission, and so is your mega-Mech. To keep them all useful in BT, I would just treat a combiner as a well-coordinated team of Mechs; you get more tactical options and firepower that way, anyway, and don't need to come up with a ton of specialized rules.
- Herb
True, too many vehicles trying to combine means you might have trouble even before the enemy shoots at the combiner:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSIQkMS6HoI
So a locally-developed C3i network that would likely mass more than the 2.5 ton canon system, but it would allow a 'combiner' group to better coordinate fire. Have some sort of hardwired setup where only those 6 can link to each other, rather than re-arranging the C3i network before each battle? If the group works together all the time, a Boosted C3i system might make sense.
I would think that would take at least a turn per mech to convert plus another turn to climb into position, with a big skill penalty. That's a couple minuets for a combiner with 6 mechs. I suppose that would work but if anyone screws up they all fall taking damage and having to start all over again.
I suppose smaller factories would be helpful but they should already have large factories making AutoMechs. I would think a superheavy bay, at least, would be needed to assemble the large drone for testing and any repairs. It'd be hard to repair a combiner that can't fit in a standard bay because damage causes multiple parts to be stuck together.
I can see some items being used in one mode and not another. Like physical weapons. They aren't that useful in AltMode. Sure some could be used for ramming or industrial work as well as physical combat. They could also help form the AltMode like an Axe becoming a vertical stablizer or something. A fighter swinging an axe about is a bit of a stretch though.
I'm glad you didn't go with scale and size changing. I could see Protomech sized drones though. Other than the weight of the AI, I think they'd be easier to build. Even with conversion systems. I don't think they'd last long either but I can see them existing.
That and the robot ends up being dropship sized. Apparently TF gets more confusing as many combiners have extra team members (spare limbs) and can swap members with other teams. Bruticus swapping an arm with Superion and such.
And I was wondering about weight and crit requirements for the Flux Capacitor. ;D
The basic ones are in TacOps. The more advanced stuff is in Interstellar Ops. Although, I'm not sure all of it is or not. I think there was an even more advanced version but I don't remember. So a AI Drone is built as is but a controlled drone would use BT rules. Cool. :thumbsup:
I was thinking more about those that didn't convert though. Or do but not to Mech mode. Like a Drone Thorizer.
Yep. Was just throwing out a possible reason for Thunderbolts to exist there. :thumbsup:
Makes sense. Pretty quick I guess.
Sure it is but isn't that handicap already built into industrial chassis?
I missed that one too.
They could be BA or ProtoMech sized so they can operate in the same hex together.
I suppose smaller factories would be helpful but they should already have large factories making AutoMechs. I would think a superheavy bay, at least, would be needed to assemble the large drone for testing and any repairs. It'd be hard to repair a combiner that can't fit in a standard bay because damage causes multiple parts to be stuck together.
GAH! C3! Thank CAT the Syberians don't have that gear! What a freaking nightmare! No; the closest I'd come, maybe, is to just treat the "combiner team" as one unit in the Initiative order, so they "act as one." Or maybe give them an attack bonus that applies when all component units are active on the field together, a-la a simple special force rule--negated once you KO a single unit as a kind of "morale effect."
Thanks to BT's "bulkytech" aesthetic, ProtoMechs needed the Clans to come along and invent them; otherwise, the jump went from power armor/light batter armor to 'Mechs (implying that Inner Sphere/Star League tech just can't bridge the gap effectively in between). I could stretch for battle armor, since the SL had power suits and exoskeletons have always been around for the setting, but Protos in Syberia? Nerp.
BA-size would justify operating in the same hex, but why make them combine? OOO! The central unit is a 'Mech, but its combiner team is all battle armor, and it uses Mechanized BA rules when they combine. The central unit remains in control, and gains the benefits of the team's armor as extra protection from attacks, plus maybe whatever electronic suites they have that the central unit lacks! Minimal new rules, and the SAME questionable behavior, but in this case, who'd care? It wouldn't be the first time someone tried to use their own battlesuited troops to get around their armor maximums.
- Herb
Funny, but still just another strike against them.
There's another.
Physical weapons are of questionable value even in the best of times, anyway. I'm not at all averse to leaving them out because the rules don't generally support physical weapon attacks by non-Mechs except in the case of some industrial gear and ramming.
Thanks to BT's "bulkytech" aesthetic, ProtoMechs needed the Clans to come along and invent them; otherwise, the jump went from power armor/light batter armor to 'Mechs (implying that Inner Sphere/Star League tech just can't bridge the gap effectively in between). I could stretch for battle armor, since the SL had power suits and exoskeletons have always been around for the setting, but Protos in Syberia? Nerp.
Yeah; the post-Devastator combiners tended to use a more interchangable technology. The most recent combiner in my collection that I can completely build has Bruticus's torso and limbs that are mostly Protectobots. Pretty sure they'd have an identity crisis. (Another part of the TF lore that's always fun is how the minds fuse in combined modes; I'd not want to codify those rules either, so... Another strike against combiners!)
Thank Cat we won't be touching that, then!
If built as a robotic, it should be independent; if built as a remote-controlled drone, it is controlled by the parent unit. If this is Syberia, the preference is to have ALL drones use robotic control systems, so they can behave individually and be less susceptible to ECM (or, in the case of those Syberians not operating inside a decent magnetosphere, sunspot activity).
What about them?
Your table, your rules. Were it me, I'd be making do without.
I know *I* wouldn't stand a chance...
I can't recall exactly, but I think most of that can be mitigated with better armor and enviro sealing. But if one were to go with a story that establishes them as IndyMech-based, they would at least have a good reason for that gimmick.
It was fun. They killed off a couple characters in rather incidental ways, gave folks a reason to buy more toys, and never once explained to us what the Vok were up to, while setting the stage for Ravage to show up.
BA-size would justify operating in the same hex, but why make them combine? OOO! The central unit is a 'Mech, but its combiner team is all battle armor, and it uses Mechanized BA rules when they combine. The central unit remains in control, and gains the benefits of the team's armor as extra protection from attacks, plus maybe whatever electronic suites they have that the central unit lacks! Minimal new rules, and the SAME questionable behavior, but in this case, who'd care? It wouldn't be the first time someone tried to use their own battlesuited troops to get around their armor maximums.
...Or, as I suggested above, you could just give them some special force rules that give the team a boost when all of them are present on the field, to reflect their morale and enhanced coordination, and let them move anywhere they like so they can do fun things like triangulate their fire.
- Herb
The larger factories making Automechs are the ones making the 50-ton combiners. A SuperHeavy Bay for assembling/testing the 300-ton combiner would be useful and the nice part is that since the SuperHeavy bay is just the final step the rest of the factory costs the same as a non-combiner factory. A factory making a SuperHeavy would be more expensive than a faster factory that can make combiner Veemechs.
So the following setups:So Devastator as a combiner was the prototype, and it had delays in processing because it would poll its 6 components before making every decision. Since there were 6 units, there could be tie votes, meaning only the most obvious choices were taken (initiative penalties, and randomly selects the current target each turn unless commanded by a 'superior').
- Veemech Repair Bay - standard Mech Repair bay, used to repair Veemechs and LAMs
- Standard VeeMech factory - does not produce Combiners (your 'large' factory)
- Combiner Factory/testbed - as Standard Veemech factory, but includes a SuperHeavy bay for assembly/testing/repairs
- Combiner Factory - as Standard Veemech factory, but produces combiner Veemechs. Can repair Combiners, but only if they are separated
- SuperHeavy Bay - can repair a fused combiner, or a SuperHeavy Veemech
- SuperHeavy Factory - produces SuperHeavy Veemechs (i.e. Fortress Maximus), but is more expensive per ton of output than a Combiner Factory/testbed
The next generation combiners were manufactured with a linkage system and control system that worked properly, and espionage on both sides would allow the plans for that linkage system to get copied (aka why the Combiner toys can link with each other). The data channels would not be compatible though, so no taking the arms of Bruticus (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Bruticus_(G1)) and attaching them to Scattershot (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Scattershot_(G1)) to make a more aggressive Computron (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Computron_(G1)).
SuperHeavies (like Fortress Maximus) are a rare resource because they can only be built in specialized factories and need SuperHeavy repair centers in case of damage (or they only get fixed via very slow field repairs)
They were built using support vehicle rules. I'm guessing they'd be more ancient than those built using combat vehicle rules.
That's cool. Who are the Volk?
I suppose that'd work with six 50 ton mechs but what about five 60 ton mechs? Or some other combination of tonnages that add up to 200?
I have wondered about combining the old optional rules for reduced crit space on mechs (The lighter the class the fewer crits there are.) and Protomech weights to make XXL Mechs 2-9 tons. I never got around to doing it though but I wonder if it'd work for AutoMechs in that weight class.
I suppose that'd work with six 50 ton mechs but what about five 60 ton mechs? Or some other combination of tonnages that add up to 200?
Support vehicle rules CAN reflect more primitive units, but they can also just represent commercial-grade, non-military production. The Tech rating isn't just about age; your family car isn't a main battle tank, after all.
In the Beast Wars part of the G1 continuity (Beast Wars and Beast Machines are generally considered part of G1 because of the crossover with classic cartoon elements like the wrecked Ark, G1 characters, and Ravage), the Vok were an alien species that were using Earth as a "project" and saw the Transformers' arrival there as a contamination bad enough to abandon the whole thing and sterilize the planet. I don't think it's ever explained what they were about and other continuities have them elsewhere, doing other things.
The VOLK are something else entirely, and unrelated to this conversation (at present).
Well, I did say that it's your story and game table. I'm gonna try and stop nay-saying your ideas on the grounds of how I see my own Syberian head-canon.
- Herb
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Vok
the show never really explained who or what they were. they basically existed to be the source of McGuffins the factions would fight over and generally do the whole "mysterious powerful beings" routine. i'm pretty sure that the main reason they existed was so that the show's storylines could have more variety, given the small casts and the fact that prehistoric earth didn't have a local population to interact with.
Anything 100 tons or less I am assuming can be built in a regular Veemech factory. The difficulty is in setting up the initial combination capability, so there would be testing done in a SuperHeavy bay, while the attached Veemech factory is used to produce (and re-re-re-refit) the 6 variants needed. So you might have a 6-Mech setup that is 20 tons each to create a 120-ton combiner. Or you might have an 60-ton central Mech that has four 35-ton Mechs serving as its limbs for a 200-ton combiner Mech.
The key is the proper linkage system, so the Veemechs can support each other, communicate, etc. Since each of the combiner mechs will need 3 forms (vehicle, Mech, and combiner component), their transformation systems will be larger than a standard Veemech that only has two forms (vehicle & Mech).
Or go with Herb's idea that combiners use a form of communications that is almost hard-wired into a specific group, giving them various benefits. So instead of a single large combiner, you have 5-6 Mechs that work together REALLY well. Unfortunately if a member of the group gets destroyed, the benefit is lost until a replacement comes from the factory and the remaining members can synchronize with the new member.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Vok
the show never really explained who or what they were. they basically existed to be the source of McGuffins the factions would fight over and generally do the whole "mysterious powerful beings" routine. i'm pretty sure that the main reason they existed was so that the show's storylines could have more variety, given the small casts and the fact that prehistoric earth didn't have a local population to interact with.
Or go with Herb's idea that combiners use a form of communications that is almost hard-wired into a specific group, giving them various benefits. So instead of a single large combiner, you have 5-6 Mechs that work together REALLY well. Unfortunately if a member of the group gets destroyed, the benefit is lost until a replacement comes from the factory and the remaining members can synchronize with the new member.
That's cool. Although, I'd still like to know more about your Syberian head-canon. I was also wondering about blending those rules in general as IS Protos. Not just Syberian Drones.
I think Herb's idea might work better. I think there'd still be a lot of problems for the drones when they try to connect. That said, one of them might have a command console (second AI) that's dormant until combined when it activates to control the others.
The closest the IS was coming to ProtoMechs was stealing Clan-made machines and using hacked-up pilots and implants to approximate the Clans' EI-enhanced fighter phenotypes. I could justify an eventual drone tech for it, but not without a Clan tech base, which we've yet to see anywhere in the CNAZ.
That said, this conversation has veered away from what IS likely in the realm of Syberian tech and into how to add more to it that's not. I'm just acknowledging that so I don't pop in repeatedly saying "they can't do that," which tends to ruin everyone's speculative fun. GB's storyline, after all, is not strictly in line with how I envisioned everything, but I don't want to rain on his parade or anyone else's.
Eh, again, you don't need a command console if the AIs are designed to think independently but have built-in coordination as part of their programming. They would just function like a well-oiled machine until a part breaks down, then fall to "mediocre" performance. If instead you NEED to have a combiner force, though.... that's a bridge to far for me. The closest I can get there is the mechanized drone BA squad/single Mech angle, and that's almost a war crime.
- Herb
I might be getting better at this.
I might be getting better at this.
I'm calling Mirage done. Leaving the right arm alone and not going to worry about a head. Vehicle mode is essentially done, may add the second turret for looks and to represent the weapons.
I was thinking something more IS based using more conventional controls and fractional accounting. Something like the Sloth. Only scaled up. Weapons would be IS based, of course.
That's cool and totally understandable. I think it is nice knowing where canon is or could be though. I don't think knowing that would ruin anyone's fun. I think knowing where the line for canon is, is a good thing. And if we're speculating, is some modern equipment, even Clan, available to drones, if there's a reference to something similar used by the SLDF or older? Like Chemical Lasers (old age of war weapon), Reflective Armor (fluff for an ASF in TRO:2750 mentions it), Cruise Missiles based on an old Earth weapon) etc... Would Tank Cannons be among them as old Earth Weapons?
For Mirage, I think it'll come down to how well the paint job will sell it. The Assassin has alot of metal to remove from the chest and head to match the G1 look and the Zephros already pretty much has the canopy of the Assaasin, if painted correctly, is how I saw it.
What i should have done was elongate the Zephyros nose to match the Assassin chest peice, perhaps.
In-universe, the reason the IS doesn't have ProtoMechs is because of a combination of Clan-level materials engineering (which makes structure and armor battlefield-effective) and the need to deal with power/weight/balance issues. The fusion plants are in range of both tech bases, but to get around gyros, the Clans relied on EI neutral implants and a phenotype that took generations to develop. The Inner Sphere can match that EI/pilot tech with VDNI and multi-amputee warriors, but getting the same strength of structure and armor without the kind of excess bulk that would make their ProtoMechs more 'Mech-sized would likely be an issue. Even then, neither tech bases have come up with a drone system equivalent---but then again, canonically speaking, neither have they done so with battle armor.
And yet, I'm able to see BA versions of drone and robotics as easily produced. So... If I *had* to introduce a robotic/drone unit in the ProtoMech/UH ProtoMech tonnage ranges (circa 2-15 tons), it would likely use a slightly different control system mass (say 20%, with a minimum (*checks some notes*) 700kg control system mass (equal to the internal chassis weight of a Clan-made assault battlesuit, to account for an IS-based design with additional robotic/drone controls). Then an internal structure weight of 15% (as opposed to the 10% of Clan ProtoMech IS weights, to deal with the tech variance). Then an armor weight of, um, (*checks more notes*) 60 kg per armor point (a rounded average of the weight for Support Vehicle BAR 10 armor between Tech ratings D and E). After that, weapons loads would have to use BA-scale Inner Sphere weapons with SL-era equivalences (if we're just sticking to Syberia), or Inner Sphere-scaled BA weapons of any available type to the era of play.
I then would not allow them to do some things Clan Protos can do, such as using any alternate MP systems beyond jumping and ground, or making use of mechanized ProtoMech capabilities some units can do. Stuff like that. (Basically similar capability limits to those Inner Sphere BA have when compared to their Clan versions, to account for refinements yet to be realized.)
The rule of thumb I gave for the settlers of Syberia were Star League era. At the time I envisioned their arrival in the CNAZ, the Caspar tech was, at best, in a prototype state of development, and a lot of what would become known as the pinnacle of First Star League tech was at least theoretically attainable. The Syberia settlers perfected their own versions of all that tech to what would be First Star League standards, then kind of went overboard on the convertible 'Mechs concept before they started shooting at each other, then telling their drones to do the same, then losing control over the situation entirely and getting themselves killed off for all of that cleverness. The tech would have stopped evolving there, but anything UP to that level of achievement could have been in play, including less advanced gear used for lower-priority/cost-saving/resource-saving work. Going all the way back to 20th century stuff, though, might be an overstep, since anything pre-2300 was pretty much obsolete against the most common electronics, targeting, and armor technologies of the Age of War and later.
- Herb
Syberian Faction Chassis Class/Type BattleMech Vehicle
Beach Beetle AutoBoP Beetle (Wheeled/35) Commando Swift Wind
Com Blaster AutoBoP Sounder (Wheeled/60) Prim. Thunderbolt PackRat
Astro-Scout AutoBoP Scout (Aero/30) Daimyo Sholagar ASF
Grapple Crane AutoBoP Lifter (Wheeled/75) Grasshopper JI-100
(Vee-)Hoister AutoBoP Hounder (Wheeled/60) Wolverine Striker
Inferno Crane AutoBoP Lifter (Wheeled/75) Grasshopper Coolant Truck
Supreme Ultima AutoBoP Vengeance (DropShip) -- Vengeance (DS)
Com ’Ceptor AutoBoP Sounder (Wheeled/60) Prim. Thunderbolt PackRat
Power Glider AutoBoP Glider (Aero/40) Crossbow (CRS-6B) Hiryo (WiGE)
Red Jack AutoBoP Jack (Wheeled/50) Shadow Hawk Rotunda
Sea Coaster AutoBoP Coaster (Hover/55) Axman (AXM-2N) Maxim Hovertank
(Vee-)Skidder AutoBoP Hounder (Wheeled/60) Wolverine Striker
Smoke Streaker AutoBoP Streaker (Wheeled/55) Griffin Rotunda
Tracker Jack AutoBoP Jack (Wheeled/50) Shadow Hawk Rotunda
Warp Tanker AutoBoP Tanker (Tracked/70) Hollander Rommel Howitzer
Air Support Team
Aero-Bolt AutoBoP AeroMech-C (Aero/50) Clint IIC P-Hawk Mk I (Fighter)
Aero-Raider AutoBoP AeroMech (Aero/40) Wasp-1 S-Hawk LAM (Fighter)
Aero-Diver AutoBoP AeroMech (Aero/40) Wasp-1 Rapier ASF
Aero-Shot AutoBoP AeroMech (Aero/40) Wasp-1 Rapier ASF
Aero-Fire AutoBoP AeroMech (Aero/40) Wasp-1 Rapier ASF
Defense Support Team
Spot Lifter-P AutoBoP Lifter (Wheeled/75) Grasshopper JI-100
Rotor Blade-P AutoBoP Rotor (VTOL/40) Dola Cavalry VTOL
Aider Vee-P AutoBoP VeeMech (Wheeled/60) Wolverine MASH
Groove Sneaker-P AutoBoP Sneaker (Wheeled/30) Hermes Centipede (+wheels)
Street Streaker-P AutoBoP Streaker (Wheeled/55) Griffin Rotunda
Elite-One Team
Optimal Una AutoBoP Seeker II (Aero/55) Crusader Rusalka (Fighter)
Luna Jack AutoBoP Jack (Wheeled/50) Shadow Hawk Rotunda
Chroma-Vee AutoBoP Hounder (Wheeled/60) Wolverine Demon Tank
Fire-Vee AutoBoP Hounder (Wheeled/60) Wolverine Demon Tank
Green-Sneaker AutoBoP Sneaker (Wheeled/30) Hermes Centipede (+wheels)
Lance-Sneaker AutoBoP Sneaker (Wheeled/30) Hermes Centipede (+wheels)
Ark-One AutoBoP Enhanced Vengeance NA Conquistador (DS)
Team Star Train
Star Train Alpha DemoCon Leader (Wheeled/100) Banshee Long Tom MV
Star Train Beta DemoCon Enhanced Leopard (DS) NA Broadsword (DS)
Team Blitzer
Alpha Blitzer (Tankus) DemoCon Tankus (Tracked/100) Highlander Demolisher
Beta Blitzer DemoCon Seeker II (Aero/55) Crusader Waneta (Fighter)
Death Seeker DemoCon Seeker (Aero/50) Phoenix Hawk Mechbuster
Ram Seeker DemoCon Seeker (Aero/50) Phoenix Hawk Mechbuster
Thrust Seeker DemoCon Seeker (Aero/50) Phoenix Hawk Mechbuster
Blast Seeker DemoCon Seeker (Aero/50) Phoenix Hawk Mechbuster
Vibroblade Drone DemoCon Flight Drone (Aero/1.5) Aeshna (Micro) --
Bikescout Drone DemoCon Bike Drone (Wheeled/1.5) Minigun Cycle (Inf) --
Ender Formation
Master Motor DemoCon Leader (Wheeled/100) Grand Titan HQ Vehicle
Break Ender DemoCon Jack (Wheeled/50) Shadow Hawk Rotunda
Dead Ender DemoCon Jack (Wheeled/50) Shadow Hawk Rotunda
Wild Ender DemoCon Jack (Wheeled/50) Shadow Hawk Rotunda
Drag Ender DemoCon Ghost (Wheeled/40) Assassin Zephyros
Brute Formation
Master Onslaught DemoCon Leader (Wheeled/100) Grand Titan Long Tom MV
Brute Blaster DemoCon Orbiter (Aero/40) Arbalest Slayer
Brute Brawler DemoCon Brawler (Tracked/65) Pulverizer Manticore
Brute Swindler DemoCon Sounder (Wheeled/60) Prim. Thunderbolt PackRat
Brute Stormer DemoCon Rotor (VTOL/40) Dola Cavalry VTOL
Avenger Alpha DemoCon Enhanced Achilles (DS) NA Tracker (WS)
Season 2 G1 Cartoon identities added (exempting a bunch of generics and some oddities not worth mentioning). Plus the command ships!
(snip)
The list also corrects some IE mis-identifications that came out naturally as I tweaked the various model types going forward.
Have funsies!
- Herb
I'm curious how big the armies of Syberia are. Are there more than couple dozen bots or the mass produced? I would hope the later.
Im curious if AutoMechs have society or culture they adopted from the humans before they went extinct.
No humans means no Kiss Players, good!
Got the DJ pretty much done. The vehicle mode i was tempted to give the more prominent headlight hood style, but decided against it. The wheel guards aren't as distinctive as like, but wanted to play it safe.
Got the DJ pretty much done. The vehicle mode i was tempted to give the more prominent headlight hood style, but decided against it. The wheel guards aren't as distinctive as like, but wanted to play it safe.
Weird as it may sound, I really can't stand any of the anime interpretations of Transformers, and the more I hear of the Kiss Players series, the more I think there's something very wrong with the water in Japan....
Looks good. :thumbsup:
I liked G1 but it got weird with Head and Target Masters. I tried the later ones but they were even more weird. Some of the designs were nice though.
Funny, though; I never appreciated until now just how much the Jazz's front wheels migrate from toy to toy incarnation. I have three different versions of him here, and all three put those wheels in different places in robot mode.
I was getting fatigue when they hit the Head/Target-Masters era, but for me the breaking point was Pretenders. It took a WHILE for me to accept Beast Wars, and forget about the outcome of Beast Machines. But just about NONE of the anime interpretations worked for me, despite the fact that I grew up loving Robotech, Star Blazers, and even thought the lion Voltron was kind of cool (if somewhat insipid [just go straight to the Blazing Sword, okay? we all know every other attack you have won't work. sheesh!]). This is particularly ironic for me as I know the Transformers have Japanese toy/anime origins, and yet their interpretations just fail to appeal. "Kiss Players" was a comic series, I think, and I've only heard/read bits and pieces about it...and every one of those pieces is so far off the reservation they make me wonder if it was an acid trip.
So, yeah, my favorites go as close to the G1 cartoon and more mature variations thereof that we can get.
....Is anyone even interested in the season 3 line-up?
[BLANKET CORRECTION: I kept calling Leader-class 100 tons; they're 85 tons and I really need to pay better attention to my own rules!]
- Herb
So, okay... It mushroomed into about 188 identified units across the three seasons, and I even included design types GB and Glitterboy tossed into this discussion....
I ended up making a spreadsheet, and spending a good full three days combing through images on TFWiki and IWM....
I may have broken my brain.
that's all for now...
- Herb
Next up is the local security VeeMech, Prowl. Vehicle mode was alot easier than I expected.
I'm still trying to figure out Rachet / Ironhide with the MASH base.
In an alternate timeline, Sunstreaker carries a flux capacitor....You mean this?
(And yeah, I know there's an actual Transformer for that one too.)
- Herb
Yeah, that guy. I'm pretty sure there's also an Ecto-1 Transformer and I know there's a bunch of GI Joe and Star Wars ones. I dunno if they ever made toys for the Star Trek ones, though.
- Herb
So, okay... It mushroomed into about 188 identified units across the three seasons, and I even included design types GB and Glitterboy tossed into this discussion....
I ended up making a spreadsheet, and spending a good full three days combing through images on TFWiki and IWM....
I may have broken my brain.
that's all for now...
- Herb
Yeah, that guy. I'm pretty sure there's also an Ecto-1 Transformer and I know there's a bunch of GI Joe and Star Wars ones. I dunno if they ever made toys for the Star Trek ones, though.
- Herb
if they ever do a Fortress Tiberius toy i am so getting one.
Am I seeing the equivalent of surprised goggle eyes on what I'm assuming is Trypticon there...?
You are the wind beneath my wings. Looking forward to seeing the spreadsheet.
You mean this?
Yeah, that guy. I'm pretty sure there's also an Ecto-1 Transformer and I know there's a bunch of GI Joe and Star Wars ones. I dunno if they ever made toys for the Star Trek ones, though.
- Herb
if they ever do a Fortress Tiberius toy i am so getting one.
"They do exist!https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ectotron (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ectotron)
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Star_Trek_vs._Transformers
Okay, now for the chassis round-up....
Okay, now for the chassis round-up....
DropShips--
1 Achilles-class (Enhanced) - Mods result in a vessel that resembles a Tracker-class WarShip [DemoCon Flagship "Avenger"]
2 Leopard-class (Enhanced) - Mods result in vessels that resemble Broadsword-class DropShip [Sky Train-Beta and Skylinker-One]
1 Titan-class (Enhanced) - Mods result in vessel that resembles a Hamilcar-class DropShip [AxiMaL flagship "Axiom"]
1 Triumph-class (Enhanced) - Mods result in vessel that resembles a Claymore-class DropShip [PresiDom flagship "Farside"]
2 Vengeance-class (Unmodified) - [Supreme Ultima and Supreme Guardia]
1 Vengeance-class (Enhanced) - Mods result in vessel that resembles Conquistador-class DropShip [AutoBoP flagship "Arc-One"])
--TOTAL: 6 distinct ship types
Other--
2 Giant Mobile Structures - Tonnage??? - Tracked - 17x17 hex Urban-style maps
1 Luftenburg-class aircraft carrier - Tonnage: 100K tons - Surface Naval - Template E
--TOTAL: 2-3 distinct Miscellaneous super-support unit types.
Footnote: *Unit is a drone, and may not operate >50km from its designated command unit (>500km in space).
Units by Faction:
AutoBoP Alliance: 101
- AutoBoP units - 87
- DynaBoG units - 5
- AxiMaL units - 6
AutoBoP-Friendly Non-Combatant: 12
- JUniCom units - 12
DemoCon Pact: 82
- DemoCon units - 61
- IntSecCon units - 3
- PresiDom units - 18
Unaffiliated units - 8
Unit chassis designs folded into this list include not only published types from Welcome to the Nebula California (devised by myself), but also unit types developed in or referenced by this thread by other users, most notably Giovanni Blasini and Glitterboy2098. A vast majority of the types listed here have yet to receive baseline stats. [And, once more, it should be noted that any such stats SHOULD be considered baseline only; the semi-intelligence of the AutoMechs of Syberia, couple with centuries of repairs, bypasses, and randomizations, has changed many named units in more than just their cosmetics and colors, after all.]
Thanks!
- Herb
Cannonshop literally just finished (mostly) a Star Trek into Ngo-Verse crossover story. and those of us in the thread have been working up some rough and ready stats for trek tech.
Are these individual 'Mech counts? Wow, the factions are smaller than I was expecting, though it makes sense, given the source material, I suppose.
Now I just gotta work out how big Fortress Tiberius would be. I'm figuring a wee bit smaller than the 190,000 ton mass listed in the old Franz Joseph sourcebook.
Sounds cool! Is there a link?
Here is the direct link to page 1:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-fiction/something-derived-from-somewhere-else/
Question: do you see DropShip types using the rules for the SDS system, in terms of extra mass for their automation, or just using the baseline construction rules, with the normal control components and crew quarters mass accounting for their automation?
-
Ditto these - how do you see the automation mass working on these?
Are these individual 'Mech counts? Wow, the factions are smaller than I was expecting, though it makes sense, given the source material, I suppose.
No, thank you! That's incredibly helpful, and leaves us plenty of room in this thread to work out stats for these!
Now I just gotta work out how big Fortress Tiberius would be. I'm figuring a wee bit smaller than the 190,000 ton mass listed in the old Franz Joseph sourcebook.
TFU has other factions listed besides Autobot and Decepticon.
<snip>
Also Herb didn't list any FloatMechs or SubMechs so there could be more factions out there. That means that the numbers could easily be multiplied. Many factions just "share" similar designs. Others have designs that are unique or do not have designs that others do. This can be for various reasons. They can also be varied to represent different tech levels/resources.
I was wondering about TFs like Unicron. Would they work as EmplacementMechs? Just call it a Satellite or Space Station and use the FrankenMech jump jet rules so multiple JJs equal 1 thrust point?
Cannonshop literally just finished (mostly) a Star Trek into Ngo-Verse crossover story. and those of us in the thread have been working up some rough and ready stats for trek tech.
Star Wars (Forgot about these) A reason to use Star Empire equipment! >:D
Back to the Future - Gonna need that Flux Capacitor. ;D We can use Boondoggles to workout the hover conversions.
G.I. Joe - A reason to use Tank Cannons. >:D
Ghostbusters - Infantry and Vehicle Scale Proton Packs and Slime Blowers for fighting Ghost Infantry, Ghost Mechs and bad moods. :))
Star Trek - Phasers, Disruptors, Photon Torpedos, Shields, Cloaking devices (already covered but allowed for Converting Mechs), Warp Drives (It'd probably be easier to treat Fortress Tiberius as just a weird large aerospace fighter, with the warp nacelles as thrusters. But I'd love to see what BT Warp Drives look like.) >:D
That does make me wonder if other "large" AutoMechs could actually be miniature in scale as a disguise. They look like they're miles away but are really much closer. It kind of makes sense considering the size of their Mech Forms when compared with other AutoMechs.
(snip)
So, let's try and make sense of how it works on Syberia, and note that these robotics construction rules will likely apply ONLY to the AutoMechs of Syberia for now.
(snip)
Which is partly why I'm presenting it. Like I said elsewhere, there's enough here now to fill a full-sized TRO.
The only naval AutoMech I found in the aforementioned 4 seasons of TF cartoons I worked out here was actually a hovercraft, Seaspray. Although it would have been easy to make him naval, I figured hover gave him more chances to join the battle with his buddies. And as to factions, much like the bots themselves, I limited myself to the ones we saw in those 4 seasons of cartoons.
Unicron is an abomination, and one of the outliers I specifically excluded in the "4 seasons of toons." If you were to make him, the closest I could come under the rules I sketched out above would be a gargantuan space station, and he would not be able to transform, as per my rules above.
Cool! (As I've done my own look into BattleTrek, I'm going to withhold any further remarks on the subject. No need to have too many chefs in the same kitchen.)
I shall stay FAR away from most of those, too....
I made a very deliberate choice to avoid "size changers" when it comes to AutoMechs, which is half the reason the AutoMech version of Megatron and Shockwave are not handguns, and the AutoMech versions of Soundwave and Blaster are vehicles rather than boom boxes. (The other half being that they need more damned agency of their own, damn it!) The reason i used any in my list here was to access a broader range of looks than standard 'Mechs alone, and to account for some degree of comparative mass between related Mech and alt modes. Glitterboy's AxiMaLs also spelled out they were made small, and their chassis types run on the lighter side, so using ProtoMech and micro-Mech figures for them helped cover that aesthetic, I hope.
But since pics on the IWM site don't always come with a clear sense of scale, I wouldn't know what any of this will look like until someone actually tries to make some of these happen. Luciora?
- Herb
Looks great to me. :thumbsup:
I would have put Seaspray as a hovercraft too. Would his girlfriend Alana count?https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Alana (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Alana)
There's also Broadside. https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Broadside_(G1) (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Broadside_(G1)) Scale his carrier form down to 100 tons and he could launch drone seekers.
I'm primarily sticking to the G1 Autobots, as a personal interest. However, the vehicles aren't in scale to the mechs obviously. Sometimes they kind of match up, with enough work. The Seekers, as Pixies and Mechbusters roughly match up they way I build them up. Megatron and the Ajax work ok, while Grimlock and his White Flame aren't too bad scale-wise either.
Well, I do need to procure a Patton for Shockwave. I'm starting work on Rachet next. I was pleasantly surprised to find out just how accurate the MP was to the animated version. I couldn't find the tires at first, then I found out the fold into the arms and were on his back.
I'm also kind of tempted to paint his MASH mode in a way where he's like Optimus with a separate trailer, in a way to reference his G1 toy.
Thanks.
Alana was an outlier and I didn't deal with her. In fact, she didn't even appear on the cast lists of the seasons I touched on. Moreover, she doesn't even have a toy to work with, so... yeah, no.
As to Broadside, who did you think the AutoMech Luftenburg on my list was? ;)
You know, I never had an original G1 of Ratchet or Ironhide (or Prime, really; closest I got in original series toys was an Ultra Magnus), but I honestly didn't like the way Ironhide and Ratchet seemed to look as toys, which didn't match their cartoon versions. They had too much of a Go-Bots vibe to me, and I always felt the Go-Bots designers were just phoning in their work. Heck, looking at the toys, it wasn't until about 2008 that we got a Ratchet who looked the way I preferred. Still, hey, if you want to nod to that, uh, gun-thing he and Ironhide had, go for it!
Ultimately, all I can do is make suggestions here. You're the one creative enough to actually make something of them, which I find totally more awesome.
- Herb
I'm trying to find a way to balance the G1 toys with the MP toy release. A mix of animated and toy, if that make sense. Ratchet, the way I'm planning would look like the Animated/MP toy, then his vee mode would be like Optimus and his trailer. If that makes sense :)
I may do some additional work on the vehicle, but this way, the main mech has 6 wheels , 2x4 with the rest supporting what is now the trailer. No I'm not going to kitbash the weapons/repair platform mode. It was hard enough removing enough of the Wolverine chassis to fit the new boxy torso to the point that I'm not looking forward to Ironhide's kitbash :P
A cool non-converting AutoMech. I was thinking of one that could convert and storm the beaches after launching it's drones.
If I remember right, Ironhide was my first transformer. I got Rachet later. I was disappointed they didn't look like they did in the animation but I was still happy to have them. They were kind of cool though in that Ironhide and Ratchet could work as two units or one. They remind me now of a pickup with a truck camper.
I liked the GoBots. I don't think the show was as good but I liked the toys. I'm glad they got folded in with Transformers. I always played with them together anyway.
I'm trying to find a way to balance the G1 toys with the MP toy release. A mix of animated and toy, if that make sense. Ratchet, the way I'm planning would look like the Animated/MP toy, then his vee mode would be like Optimus and his trailer. If that makes sense :)
Herb, the Illegal Quirk would apply Syberian Drones, right?
The best you'd get would be a maritime Soundwave. No flight deck is small enough for a convertible BT unit, even under the looser Syberian rules.
- Herb
The best you'd get would be a maritime Soundwave. No flight deck is small enough for a convertible BT unit, even under the looser Syberian rules.
I'm sure most kids did. I just felt they lacked personality that the Transformers had. I like that they merged in too, though; their lore always did seem pretty compatible, and some re-interpretations of their design in more recent years has given them the personality I always thought they lacked.
Animated is a great inspiration as well, I must admit. I was originally thrown by the art style, but it definitely grew on me, and their full-throated adaptation of the notion that many Transformers share body types from the moment of their forging was one particular area that inspired me to do the same for the Syberian AutoMechs.
- Herb
I see two design options for a water-borne Soundwave:
1) Small version:
Soundwave launches VTOL minicons from itself to aid in storming the beach (primarily for spotting and drawing fire from enemy units)
2) Large version:
Soundwave is a Triple-changer, having a robot form, a boat form, and an interlink form that attaches to a non-transforming helicopter carrier. So Soundwave first commands the helicopter carrier that supports other Automechs (refueling, ammo loading, repair tools, weapon bays), and when it is time to attack Soundwave can join the attack while sending basic instructions to the (very stupid) drone brain on the Heli carrier. Maybe Soundwave can provide its targeting bonus to a single weapon when interlinked? So the drone might have Gunnery 5 (or 6?) normally, but when Sounwave is interlinked one of the guns gets to use Soundwave's Gunnery skill.
(snip)
I'm not sure why Ironhide wouldn't have the same interlinking capability that Soundwave has. I'm also not sure why he wouldn't just fire a flak round from the Long Tom at the enemy seeker.
Ironhide interlinking is physically going directly to the weapon, a quick few second action where Ironhide still has arms and legs and the ability to use them. Soundwave's interlink is a dedicated transformation that allows his mind to fully link with the entire ship. In this mode Soundwave cannot move without transforming out of it.
Think of Ironhide's link as a USB plug in on a remote terminal, while Soundwave's link as becoming a mainframe-adjunct. Soundwave will be doing far more processing and will need access to the ship's cooling grid to keep from overheating. Instead of the small cable (https://youtu.be/3RNzyYurjHg?t=399) seen when cartoon Soundwave links to a Decepticon computer, this would be a massive array of cables connecting to access ports that are revealed when Soundwave assume this third mode. Think of it like when the Paranoid Commander links (https://youtu.be/w3shPjw54z0?t=4302) to his spaceship's Dinomech mode (https://youtu.be/w3shPjw54z0?t=4365). Or when the two robots (Ail-1 and Toil) linked (https://youtu.be/w3shPjw54z0?t=4650) to the surface activators.
As to ammo, I was just going with standard ammo for all the weapons to keep it relatively simple. I also figure that non-artillery weapons would be easier to use to hit airborne targets.
Oh okay. That's a bit more interlinking than I'd care to go but if it works for you that's cool. I think I'd rather go with remote controlled systems and less smart drones.
Erm. Per the rules, even of the CalNeb, the AutoMechs themselves ARE "smart drones."
- Herb
I thought the cassettes, and similar, were drone drones. ???
Oh okay. That's a bit more interlinking than I'd care to go but if it works for you that's cool. I think I'd rather go with remote controlled systems and less smart drones.
In the case of this particular setting, they were "drones," yes, but only insomuch that they could only operate within a certain range of their command unit, and that they could be cut off by ECM, prompting an immediate retreat or shutdown. I didn't add any other restrictions beyond those, and even allowed non-battle armor units to be designated as "drones" with no real change to their construction whatsoever. This made what was a "drone" to the AutoMechs, and what wasn't, a mostly academic distinction up to the creator's whim.
(snip)
(Oh, and drones that just happen not to follow the decision trees, because those weren't even a thing when they were created, leaving them with a more...randomized battle behavior.)
- Herb
As to remote controlled systems and smart drones, I figure the Jormungand equipped in this manner with Soundwave interfacing would be similar to G1's Teletraan-1 (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Teletraan_I) being used by Optimus Prime. Soundwave would be able to remote control it from anywhere on board or within direct communication range, but that Jormungand would be forced to use its own Piloting/Gunnery ratings. So the Jormungand is a dumb drone, but only specific control signals (the correct frequencies/encryption) will be obeyed. Similar to the shuttle used in the 1986 Transformers movie, these larger drones only do what they is told, but can at least be put on automatic with basic instructions.
Another example might be an ARTS-style repair bay that can handle the basics, but if Ratchet or others with the correct skills can link in then Ratchet's Technician skills can be used instead of the basic skills that an ARTS bay uses.
The interlink ability was me thinking of a way to give an Automech's enhanced Gunnery to another unit's weaponry. I figured it should have some penalty as a result, and decided to go with needing a dedicated transformation mode. The other option would be adding the full drone hardware to give a full Gunnery and Piloting upgrade to the vessel, potentially giving that vessel a full intelligence as well. A full upgrade would require more mass than the interlink systems, but would also provide the Gunnery bonus to all of the vessel's weaponry instead of just the one that the linked Automech was providing. The drone used in this manner would be much cheaper than an actual (non-transforming) Automech due to the lower computer tech required to built it.
This interlink tech could even be an early version of the Headmaster (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Headmaster_(technology)) transformers that only have two modes - robot and control system. Essentially the Automechs started with a 2-mode transformer, and added a third mode to provide the datalinks needed. As tech crawls on and industry steadily grows, the units with interlink ability will gradually shed their vehicle mode to provide better capabilities (or just be smaller).
possible idea for a non-transforming automech.. Shockwave done as a Cyclops variant. i don't think they ever showed him transforming in the shows i've seen, and the toys apparently don't have a standard form, instead being all over the place for alt-modes. so him not being a transforming model wouldn't be much of a stretch.
alternately could be a highlander variant, i guess?
possible idea for a non-transforming automech.. Shockwave done as a Cyclops variant. i don't think they ever showed him transforming in the shows i've seen, and the toys apparently don't have a standard form, instead being all over the place for alt-modes. so him not being a transforming model wouldn't be much of a stretch.
alternately could be a highlander variant, i guess?
This interlink tech could even be an early version of the Headmaster (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Headmaster_(technology)) transformers that only have two modes - robot and control system. Essentially the Automechs started with a 2-mode transformer, and added a third mode to provide the datalinks needed. As tech crawls on and industry steadily grows, the units with interlink ability will gradually shed their vehicle mode to provide better capabilities (or just be smaller).
That's cool. So all the drones have AIs? If they do, why limit how far they can operate on their own? ???
I know the command decision trees weren't a thing then but I was thinking the drones creators would have created their own on the way to the AI drones. A tech progression, just sooner and eventually more advanced than the SLDF's. I was thinking the drones without AIs and those using them mostly be relics using older technology. For example, Broadside using remote controlled drones while Soundwave uses AI drones.
I also wondered about using the illegal quirk for similar reasons. Those drones were failed experiments that somehow managed to survive. Kind of like Syberian versions of the Champion LAM and Scorpion LAM. I kind of figured they might try the same kinds of things and fail that IS designers did later on.
Can AutoMechs have Chassis Mods? If so, would they pay extra weight for them? Examples being Beachcomber having the Dune Buggy Mod. Or Water Walk having the Flotation Hull Mod? Would he be built using an Industrial chassis as a conventional fighter, since flotation hulls aren't allowed for aerospace fighters?
Arbitrary dependency. Their AIs are constantly coordinating with the master units much like the coordinated teams that have replaced the combiners in this setting. Outside of the master's range, they get "lost."
That may be a step or two deeper into the weeds than I would consider necessary, but if it works on your table, have fun with it. Remember this was all going into a playable "joke" project that was made on a shoestring budget and no playtesting. I can delve deep into my fun projects, but after a point, they stop being fun and start being work. These days, I have less tolerance for the latter.
Had they possessed the specs, maybe. But if the specs were never given to them, no. As I just said in another reply, the Sybertronians can't innovate; they can only build what they already know how to build, with alterations that are ultimately more cosmetic than anything. Creativity takes more sentience than they actually have.
Erf, I'd say the transforming ones can have chassis mods legal to their 'Mech type. A key thing about all transforming Mechs in Battletech--including those in the CNAZ: they are ALWAYS BattleMechs/WorkMechs first and foremost. they may have some extra tricks and such, but at the end of the day, their alt modes are functional costumes. A LAM is a BattleMech in fighter drag. A Syberian AutoMech that becomes a tank is a BattleMech in tracked vehicle drag. Odds are, if the component you want has an "NA" in the column for 'Mech slots, it'd be unavailable under legal construction rules, and you'd have to make up the slots for it if you wanted to put it on anyway. If you want it, in your games, go nuts. For me, it's a bridge I'd have to decide to nuke or not only if and when I got there.
Meanwhile, my Beach Beetle is basically a Beetle-class AutoMech that happens to have a different-looking vehicle mode than most other Beetles.
- Herb
Oh, I almost forgot...
Here's the spreadsheet I put together that I keep referring to.
- Herb
I was thinking created by the humans, not the drones. The drones might make new parts once in a while but I don't think they'd create new drones of a design that their creators considered failures.
That's cool :) I was just wondering to make them more unique. I do know if a unit has NA they can't use that component but there should be some allowances since converting Mechs aren't normal. So if Chassis Mods were available a Tankus class AutoMech could be amphibious.
That's cool. A lot of buggies were made out of Beetles. It wouldn't be the first time different mechs shared the same chassis. :thumbsup:
Thanks! I'm looking forward to looking at it more when my eyes aren't so blurry. :beer: :thumbsup:
You'd be right. But the humans on Syberia only lived for about 100 years before their conflicts wiped them out. They accomplished quite a lot when you consider they devised their own practical AI tech, a while slew of new transforming Mech types (however questionable), and made all of that their "gold standard" while simultaneously building a society and then breaking up it up into factions who would inevitably fall to an apocalyptic war.
Technically speaking, BattleMechs are always amphibious; they just can't float very well.
Sure, but as is evident in Beetle Bee's design, most Beetle AutoMechs actually convert into more sedan-like vehicles, rather than dune buggies or bugs. heck, even the Bug AutoMechs don't do that. Of course, that's all mainly because I'm limiting my selections to minis IWM actually makes. Players willing to go farther afield may find more interesting designs elsewhere.
Good luck. My eyes have gone steadily more blurry over the last five years, to the point where yesterday I need to read a clock through two overlapping magnifying glasses AND my readers.
- Herb
Oh, I almost forgot...
Here's the spreadsheet I put together that I keep referring to.
- Herb
That is a big accomplishment in a 100 years.
:) I was thinking making them float and of those built to industrial standards.
That's cool. It sounds like they started with a few basic chassis and then branched off from there. Limiting selections to IWM makes sense. It'd be nicer if all BT imagers were available to be used but they're not. :(
That's no good. :( I'm using readers instead of prescription lenses. I guess we should both see an eye doctor.
I was wondering about Scourge and the Sweeps. The Wasp LAM MkI works well if using later versions of Transformers. Universehttps://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:ScourgeAligned-UltimatePopUpUniverse.jpg (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:ScourgeAligned-UltimatePopUpUniverse.jpg) I was wondering about using the Thrush ASF for a more G1 feel?
I don't recall anyone actually linking to Teletran like that, except maybe Soundwave through a wire. They usually contacted him through com equipment or treated him like a computer. I figure he'd be more a non-converting drone since in the animation he did launch and control a satellite drone to rebuild the transformers.
If it's just controlling weaponry or using another drone to spot for them, it sounds like some kind of C3 Tech. That could be some kind of quirk since some units in older TROs did have abilities like that. They were just more limited than a full C3 system.
We did discuss Headmaster and Targetmaster units earlier, but as far as the "canon" for Syberians goes (such as it is), I envisioned they never achieved it there. Plus, they--and the Powermasters--were basically a combiner variation, which I didn't dare approach beyond the concept of coordinated teams. Instead of merging for the kill, Team Constructor just triangulates its six members really well against an enemy and hits them from all sides at once.
The Syberians, while capable of some degree of learning, are not capable of innovating when it comes to tech, however. Everything they create is based on specs their long-dead human masters left them with.
- Herb
I know, right? And here you go, asking for MORE? Sheesh! Greedy, ain't ya? ;)
Well, again, if this is to be an item you want to borrow from other unit types that has no listing for its Mech slots, you'll need to answer that question, because that's how Mechs are built, with just about every game-valid item identified (and vulnerable to damage) via slot space. And we've gone about as deep into the weeds as I'm willing to get because trying to come up with rules for everything can get pretty exhausting. Hell, I suddenly realized I had a project due for publication in about two weeks late LAST NIGHT and I went "WTF am I screwing with all these Transformers for?"
Again, the option to look elsewhere always exists for the bold. Poke around the internet and I'm sure you're bound to find a 3D printer or other game company's line of minis that fits better for your liking. I stuck with IWM and their BattleTech lines for the obvious reason that this was my idea of how to translate Transformers to BattleTech, rather than the other way around.
I've been overdue for seeing an eye doctor for well over 10 years now. I probably have no means to cover a prescription anyway, and basically no funds to my name at all. SO I make do with magnifiers.
(Corrected your url above, btw.)
As probably evidenced with the fact that my versions of Megatron and Shockwave became tanks here, and my version of Wreck-Gar is using a garbage truck alt mode that only appeared in the TF Animated series (when he was voiced by the incomparable Weird Al), probably gives away the fact that I took some liberties. Among them was giving Syberian Scourge his flying wing toy form, rather than the goofy space sled with a face on it thing he had in the G1 cartoons. If you'd prefer otherwise, well, again, you do you. I ain't stopping you; I'm just not using it that way in my CNAZ headcanon. :)
- Herb
True. The goal I would want is that the Automech when connecting through a 'deep link' would need to form a much larger connection surface than normal, thus the linking unit needing another transformation mode. It wouldn't be like wearing the full body of the drone as their own, just boosting one critical area at a time. So if there was an underwater threat, the linked unit could take the data from the sonar array to have a better chance at spotting the target, but the drone uses its on Gunnery when firing. Or the linked unit tells the drone to scan for underwater threats, and if the drone spots the target the linked Automech uses its own Gunnery skill on the LRT. A single linked unit cannot provide its bonus to the sonar and the LRT on the same tactical turn though.
Another comparison might be the game Five Nights at Freddy's, where you are one person watching through a dozen security cameras and needing to open and close doors at the correct times. The Automech is a separate unit from the drone, is getting data from the drone, can focus on different locations one at a time, but cannot move while linked in and is limited to the drone's capabilities.
In this case it is using the other drone's sensors to spot, and the other drone's weapons to shoot. The key is that Soundwave is using its better CPU/Gunnery skill vs a single target, and can swap its attention to any target in range and the appropriate gun rapidly. If the drone had been designed with better computer systems to begin with, Soundwave wouldn't need to connect directly.
C3 is not available for the Syberian Automechs, so I couldn't use that.
I guess you could compare it to a drone control system, just controlling a drone larger than itself and needing a direct physical connection.
Quick update on Ratchet and peek at Ironhide.
Felt the original MASH unit was too big for either, so cut up the vehicle and made more manageable scaled vees out if them. The main boxy look is kept overall, and they scale a bit better to the other vees.
Quick update on Ratchet and peek at Ironhide.
Felt the original MASH unit was too big for either, so cut up the vehicle and made more manageable scaled vees out if them. The main boxy look is kept overall, and they scale a bit better to the other vees.
;) I hope your project goes well. :)
I would love to get a 3D printer. Unfortunately, its so far down the list of things I need to spend money on it doesn't make the list. I can also understand sticking with IWM minis. It'd be nice if BT had other came markers that could be used though.
That's cool. Some are cool designs. And I suppose converting motorcycles would be a bit too far for BT.
What is his alt form supposed to be? A Spaceship? Hovercraft? Flying Boat? The Thrush might be an improvement. Could make him an airship, I guess. :)) https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:Hearts_of_Steel_Scourge.JPG (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:Hearts_of_Steel_Scourge.JPG)
Now for Balloon. https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Balloon (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Balloon)
The Crab might work for the Mech Mode. Leave off the top laser and reverse the legs. Hmm...don't have an Airship form listed. Very slow FighterMechs?
As do I. preliminary proofs are looking good.
BT has a LOT of minis in its repertoire, and as Luciora keeps demonstrating to us, sticking with the form out of the box is hardly a requirement, especially for a game that's less WYSIWYG than others. But it's worth noting that IWM's site also shows a number of other minis for other lines. Some Shadowrun figs might be moddable into convincing enough exotic units (such as the Black Ice figures, which include a tiger and spider, both formed in a techy, low-res fashion; or the various biker figures--bikers removed, of course--might make better substitutes for some of the wheeled AutoMech forms I recommended, if they can fit the scale [I have no idea, though; SR is a 28mm game system, so I'm just guessing wildly]; the drones supplied with the Riggers & Drones look neat, too; and of course the Cyber-Assassin looks pretty Mech-like, save for his head...). Some of their fantasy figures, if they're presented sufficiently armored, can likely make for interesting 'Mechs with only a little tweaking (I see one called "Elf Thorn Warrior" there that looks like an Arena 'Mech already). The old VOR minis they still offer have some promise (looking specifically at the Shard and Union factions there). And then, there's the old Crimson Skies line, with some planes that could also pass for modern ASFs with just a little tweaking. <-- And that's all just keeping my focus on Iron Wind Metals, who could probably really use the love, y'know?
Well, I mean, they are wheeled vehicles, and that's pretty much how I saw some of the "Centipede + Wheels" conversions in my spreadsheet work, as many of them were the "female Autobot" types who eventually got motorcycle toys made for them; I saw them as kind of becoming "wide-wheeled" bike-vees here, so I picked the Centipede hovercraft and suggested "add wheels" to it. These would just be BIG bikes, of course.
The funny part is, it looks like they barely changed his transformation there and yet his spacecraft form makes for a perfect airship gondola.
Eesh! Well, ignoring the silliness of it, a balloon may technically be an airship-class unit, but since Airship isn't a vehicle mode option for AutoMechs, why not a VTOL? It's just got an unusual form.
- Herb
I try and stick as close to both sources as I can, adding enough parts or mods to make the reference pretty clear while keeping the pedigree of of the base kit.
My original Bumblebee and Optimus originally were just a paint scheme on top of a canon variant, it wasn't til the release of Nebula California that I started to the more detailed kitbashes.
Bee originally was a Firestarter M, then I did the Commmado movie-esque mod afterwards for example.
That's cool. It's just I can see Afterburner a bit more easily than I can Wreck-Gar. Although, if AutoMechs could ride each other.... :)). I'd also probably go more with the female autobot's car forms than their newer motorcyle ones.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Afterburner_(G1) (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Afterburner_(G1))
It would be nice if 1-2 wheel crits could be removed to represent 2-3 wheelers.
I do have a question about Rotors though. Page 44 under Rotors says each weighs 1 ton and takes 2 critical slots. I think the 2 slots was errata'ed to 1 slot. You're notes above would seem to indicate that so that's cool. But your notes say 1 critical per MP. Is that Cruising MP or Flank MP? Also Page 44 says that Rotors provide 1.5 MP per rotor. So if a VTOLMech has 6 Rotors, how many slots do they take?
Do FighterMechs and WiGEMechs have a maxium number of Jump Jets that they can mount? Is it still number of Jump Jets equals Walking MP and number of Improved Jump Jets equal Running MP? So a 5/8 FigherMech with max JJ would have a Thrust MP of either 5/8 and 16/24 with max IJJ? Or are they both limited to the Bots Walking MP? So a 5/8 Bot would have a max of 5 jump jets with Thrust being be 5/8 and 10/15 depending on the jump jets used?
For WiGEMEchs, would it be better to multiply the number of JJs x3 for cruising/flank speeds? Like LAM's in AirMech Mode? I ask because if they follow WiGE Rules, and 1 jump jet equals 1 MP, WiGEMechs would need a minimum of 10 standard jump jets or 5 Improved Jump Jets since it takes 5MP to take off and another 5 MP for minimal forward movement. That would also mean that a WiGEMech would have to have a movement Mech MPs of at least 10/15 (walking) or 7/11 (running) in order to mount the minimum number of Jump Jets?
Can WiGEMechs jump in vehicle Mode using their jump jets? If yes, would it be like an AirMech paying 2 MP to fly at 2 or more elevations above the ground, or would the MP cost be the same but limited by number of JJs or would they need more additional JJs to jump?
As to two-wheel VeeMechs, my notes show them as an option that costs the ability to have a turret. This is particularly funny as all the wheeled AutoMechs I put are turretless, yet put in four wheels slots anyway.
Heh. That's a fun one, isn't it? I think, perhaps, what I wanted was each Rotor being 1 ton/1 slot/1.5 Cruise MP, so a VTOLMech with 6 Rotors would be a 9/13 VTOL. Any other way to interpret all that text would get confusing real fast!
Meh. How about just making them match what we gave the aeros, so our jump jets stay consistent at 1.5 MP per?
Afterburner-style bikes is exactly what I had in mind, really, but the closest I could find in BT minis for that would have involved getting a Chalchiuhtotolin and slicing away its center hull to get two "bikes."
If I went with "car" modes for the femmes, well, here's what I'd get:
Elita-One - G1 Cartoon and 1 toy: A car similar to Arcee. If we were tossing the slim "cycles" look I was aiming for, I'd switch her to a wheeled Saladin, similar to Blurr, as the toys share a body type. There's also a toy version of Elita that's a pink speedboat. I went with her Combiner version, who flies.
Chromia - G1 Cartoon: A short truck/van thing. Toys: 2 slim-brick car forms, and four motorcycles (mostly Afterburner-style), but apparently transforming like Prime Arcee. The Centipede + Wheels can go with both, really, depending on how many wheels you give it. Or honor the cartoon and make her a VeeMech/Hounder type.
Moonracer - G1 Cartoon: A sedan-style car that I translated to a Jack-class model. Toys: 1 slim-brick car form and 1 motorcycle. See Chromia.
Firestar/Novastar - G1 Cartoon: Flatbed truck. Toys: Looks like she only ever got the one "slim-brick" car form, though a trading card game gave her a pickup truck form. If I went for cartoon/pickup form, I'd make her another Kup model (a VeeMech that uses a Wolverine II for its base, rather than a standard WOlverine). Otherwise, Centipede + wheels it is!
Greenlight & Lancer: G1 Cartoon: No clear vehicle modes shown, it seems. Toys: Both got the "slim-brick" car form that I'd translate into a 4-wheeled Centipede.
Arcee: - G1 Cartoon: Sporty Cybertronian car. Toys: All G1 toys are basically the same: A car (colors may vary, but mostly pink). In the Prime/Aligned continuity, she's a bike, though. I went with her bike interpretation, so she got the wheeled Centipede look, but she could as easily be translated into another "Beetle II" with a hovercraft mode like I proposed for a non-flying Elita-One above.
As to two-wheel VeeMechs, my notes show them as an option that costs the ability to have a turret. This is particularly funny as all the wheeled AutoMechs I put are turretless, yet put in four wheels slots anyway.
Heh. That's a fun one, isn't it? I think, perhaps, what I wanted was each Rotor being 1 ton/1 slot/1.5 Cruise MP, so a VTOLMech with 6 Rotors would be a 9/13 VTOL. Any other way to interpret all that text would get confusing real fast!
You're still bound by the rules for BattleMechs in this case, which IIRC, is that your jump MP can't exceed your Walk MP unless you use IJJs, which can't exceed your Running MP. So you can't skimp on your engine and just pump as many jets on until your run out of space for an AeroMech that can't get out of its own way on land, but outflies the fastest Inner Sphere fighters in space.
Meh. How about just making them match what we gave the aeros, so our jump jets stay consistent at 1.5 MP per?
Nope. Bimodal is bimodal; in WiGE form, the WiGEMech is limited to WiGE MP only; the jump jets provide the thrust needed to achieve WiGE MP and can't do that AND jump at the same time.
- Herb
Actually, Past-Herb, no. That's not been made an option; the option that costs a turret reduces the unit's CONVERSION GEAR slots, not Wheels slots. You're a moron, and you should feel bad. No, worse than that!
How about no? Because you misinterpreted the table again and seemed to think WiGEs shared the same MP as VTOLs, which they don't. Sorry, but you need to install jets for all your WiGE MP. It just sucks to be you if you're a WiGEMech. All the Seekers are laughing at you now. Especially Sky Seeker, because he's an ******.
-Present-Herb
They all have toys now? I know Arcee, Elita-One, and Chromia have toys. I didn't know the others did too. That's cool. And Elita-One flies? :o That's cool.
And the mini-choices sound good too. :thumbsup:
That is kind of funny. :) I suppose they could be like those newer bikes with two front wheels. Only with 4. Fewer crits would still be nice though. ;)
That's cool but what about odd number MP? Like 9 Running MP? If we can't exceed the MP, that's only 4 IJJ for 8 Jumping/Thrust as they're 2MP each. Or am I misreading it and it's Number of JJ = Running MP? So 6/9/18 Movement?
So a WiGEMech with 6 JJs would have a 9 Cruising MP? I guess that's work if Taking off counts as 1 of the 5 forward movement MPs. (5 up and 4 forward. 5 Hexes forward each turn after.) It works for AirMechs, why not WiGEMechs?
Would Improved JJs be 3 MP per?
That's makes sense. I asked because WiGEs can mount JJs to jump, so I wondered if WiGEMechs could also jump since they have JJ. But if the JJs are already being used, it'd make it hard to jump. I suppose if the WiGEMech wasn't moving at full speed then some JJs would be available to jump but that'd only work with the faster ones. And I'm guessing adding more JJs just to jump in vehicle mode, that didn't do anything, in Mech Mode isn't an option. Not without the Illegal Quirk. >:D
Can it be an option?
I don't know about it sucking to be a WiGEMech but I don't think they'd be very happy being so slow. Unless they use IJJ they're not going to be any faster than TankMechs or FloatMechs. I'd of thought they'd be faster since they're paying tonnage and crits for their vehicle MPs.
Can an AutoMech be built as a non-converting AirMech?
Yeah. Power of the Primes Elita-One, I think, was the first flying version, and she was basically a retool of a Starscream that was designed to merge with other bots. She unites with those "slim-brick" cars to form Orthia, though the merging gimmick of that particular series also enabled her to unite with pretty much any Transformer capable of being a limb from the same series (in which case, she became "Elita-Infinite")
Well, for THOSE, I ended up using the few trike tanks we have in BT. Gave a couple of those to the Junkion expy here. Alternatively, you could handwave that the wheels are just aligned so close to each other that they basically form a single wheel, kind of like how some of those experimental superheavy tanks used dual treads on each side.
Nope. IJJs are limited to Running MP; Standard JJs are up to Walk. If you have an odd number, you're gonna be forced to short-change your FighterMech on a Thrust Point.
Funny thing, that. The Syberian AutoMechs that transform are ALL bimodal. None have intermediate modes, which means there's no such thing as AirMech MPs among them.
Sorry, dude; that got quashed by Present-Herb.
WiGEMechs CAN jump, just only in Mech mode. In WiGE mode, they need those thrusters to power their motion. And if we're using Illegal Quirk to justify anything under the sun, well, this whole conversation becomes moot.
As noted above, consider a "bike mode" WheelMech to simply be a very narrow vehicle which puts its front and rear wheels very close together. Many motorcycle transformers actually do this in their toys, commonly by splitting one or both wheels as they switch to robot mode.
Yyyyup. Just one of the tradeoffs for being an oddball unit type. As you can see in my spreadsheet, I have no named WiGEMechs in there at all.
If you mean to get AirMech movement modes, where the base Jump is tripled into AirMech MPs? Nope. Again, we have no tri-modal AutoMechs. The Syberians built them all to be bimodal, and never perfected middle-modes. You can build them to LOOK like AirMechs, but they won't BE AirMechs.
- Herb
That's cool. I do like the Illegal Quirk but it probably is better if it isn't over used.
WiGEs are pretty oddball units. I think most people don't even know about them. I can't think of any WiGE Transformer type toy or character. It's kind of a shame since they are interesting vehicles.
Still, it is kind of odd that a WiGEMech only provides 1 hex movement while a JJ on a FighterMech provides 1 mapsheet movement.
Don't get me wrong, though: the Syberian AutoMechs are all Illegal by default, since they work on an AI system that is not covered by the standard, advanced, or even experimental rules. Not to mention that most have functionality that simply doesn't exist in the Inner Sphere.
I think it boils down to the fact that there's little they can do that other vehicle types can do just as well without specialized engineering. Most WiGE attempts in real life have basically amounted to aircraft that skim across water. We could more economically use conventional ships and aircraft to do those things already. Still, folks seem to be playing around with GEVs today, so I guess it's still developing tech.
Yup, but that's how it worked for LAMs, so changing that formula won't fly (pun intended). If we wanted BattleTech to make more sense, we probably shouldn't have put LAMs in the system at all. But then the Syberians probably wouldn't exist either...even as a fun product. ;)
- Herb
That's cool. The Syberian AutoMechs may be Illegal by default but they do exist in the realm of possibility considering the existence of LAMs, QuadVees, and CASPAR Drones. The Syberian's just went further than the SLDF with drone and conversion tech the way the Clans did with weapons. So I think AutoMechs can fit right in. I imagine the Hell's Horses would love to get their hands on some to improve and expand on their QuadVees.
I'd guess they are still developing. They do have some advantages like moving cargo faster than a ship or hovercraft. I can't see them driving in rush hour traffic though. Or in any place with stop and go traffic or buildings. In a way, cars that can convert to aircraft are more practical.
The formula for LAMs also included AirMech Movement which WiGEMechs don't get. Both use JJs, so it's kind of odd that their JJs provide so little thrust. But I suppose BattleMechs with the same number of JJs as a LAM but moving so much slower in space than is a bit odd too.
Can any Mech type mount Rotors instead of Jump Jets?
When i read, VTOLMechs...my mind went to Voltron. ;D
I do think the dropship non-transforming AutoMechs should have detachable command mech so it AI wasn't trapped on the ship all the time or controls bunch of Battle Armor sized drones who would act as it's arms & legs.
Now THAT'S how you wind up with Headmasters and Powermasters!
Yeah, see, that's what concerns me most about them. Most of them tend to be big, because they need wingspan, and they need to get up to a certain speed to stay aloft, and they need a pretty level surface. All of this tends to make them rather impractical for combat, especially in cluttered terrain. But then again, the future of combat is in drones right now, so...
The rabbit hole of what makes little sense in BattleTech nearly reaches the earth's core.
VTOLMechs can. The others really can't. Mixing them up for multiple motive types is just a complkication too far for me, and reminds me of our initial triple-changer talk a few pages back now.
- Herb
Nah. WoB already started on those. :) I was thinking HH would initially expand on the types of motive systems QuadVees have and then advance from there until their converting mechs are more like piloted AutoMechs.
Would QuadVees be available as prototype/early AutoMechs?
I wasn't thinking so much triple-changers but Mechs using Rotors instead of Jump Jets. Like Mech scale VTOL Infantry instead of Mech scale Jump Infantry.
I seem to recall somewhere that one or more of the Clans somehow had gained access to VDNI tech and were looking into their own version of the Machina Domini interface system. Does anyone else remember something like that? A clan prototype that was basically their version of the Gestalt? If so, those "headmasters" are already closer than we'd like to think.Clan Wolf, who adapted the Machina Domini tech to employ EI to make the Clan Interface cockpit. the prototype was the Skinwalker (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Skinwalker_(Ryoken_III)), and apparently the Hells Horses have obtained the system and produced the Parash 3 (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Parash)
I seem to recall somewhere that one or more of the Clans somehow had gained access to VDNI tech and were looking into their own version of the Machina Domini interface system. Does anyone else remember something like that? A clan prototype that was basically their version of the Gestalt? If so, those "headmasters" are already closer than we'd like to think.
Nerp! Although the tech is thematically related, Syberian engineering simply went its own way. But this is kind of moot, as Vehicle AutoMechs can be built with a quad Mech mode, so they're basically the same thing.
Um, if you see the rules, VTOLMechs CAN use their rotors in Mech mode as well. They just provide only 1 VTOL MP in that form.
- Herb
I guess they're pretty close with 2 Clans using it.
That's cool. I just wondered since QuadVees pay for their motive systems, making AutoMech's more advanced.[/quote]
:) I figured VTOLMechs could. Which is cool. :thumbsup: I was wondering about nonconverting mechs. I guess not. It's still a fun thought though. ;)
Would Jump Jets on a VTOL Mech act as a VTOL Jet Booster or are VTOLMechs not allowed Jump Jets?
Yup. Tip of the hat to Glitterboy for the details! And since one is the Horses, and they made the QuadVees, well... Just one step away from Headmaster QuadVees. Toss in an independent AI and you have an Honest to Cat AutoMech in the Inner Sphere.
The Syberians clearly made some advances the Star League simply hadn't, and then decided to make Mechs that could turn into anything, so... it only figures that they have the better QuadVees to boot.
Sure. In a rather steam-punky kind of way.
Nothing overtly bans it that I can see, but it may be a stretch to call it a VTOL Jet booster. Sometimes, a jump jet is just a jump jet.
- Herb
That's cool. I just figured they'd have to start someplace.
Now I want to build a steam powered mech. :)) Was disappointed TM didn't allow them for Mechs.
That's cool. I just wondered if JJs would give a VTOLMech a speed boost the way Jet Boosters would a VTOL.
You know, it’s not exactly a Headmaster, but for at least some AutoMechs, they should have the critical spaces open for a Command Console…
But, ALTERNATIVELY, the second AI could be little more than a repository CPU for a previously lost leadership-skilled AutoMech, perhaps one that was salvaged from a shell blown apart ages ago, when the skies over Syberia were still filled with the ashes of recently-devastated humanity and the fires of the AutoMechs' human cities still smouldered. Over the decades and centuries since, its piloting and gunnery protocols have been overwritten with expanded tactical and strategic data--a wealth of knowledge from experience, poured in from the overflowing processors of the main pilot AI. Or perhaps this second pilot AI is like a backup storage for the main, edited by revisions the main AI--and any of its similarly-equipped predecessors--has accumulated through experience before transferring the second pilot AI to a new host. In THAT case, your second pilot could be a silent mentor, synchronized with the AutoMech's main CPU and crammed with knowledge beyond the host AutoMech's own "living" experiences, but able only to communicate effectively with the right host's primary CPU, rather than just any other AutoMech. In this case, your second pilot is more like a "Leadership Protocol" or a "Database of Leadership" or some such, that can be passed along in the event the primary AI is corrupted or destroyed. This last option, naturally, would be EXTREMELY rare indeed, perhaps even unique to just one special AutoMech!
- Herb
One other thought: while Syberia mostly runs at an equivalent level of late Star League technology, there are a couple of items they have that are comparable to later Inner Sphere developments, like the wide variety of melee weapons. We'd also done conjecture on light autocannons and Thunderbolt missiles, since they're essentially slight variations on existing tech. What would your thoughts be on the other PPC variants, though, specifically the light PPC and heavy PPC? We already see the standard PPC, ER PPC and snub-nose PPC with Star League tech, and so I'm wondering if "like those, only bigger" or "like those only smaller" would be too much of a stretch for Syberian tech.
Sure. In a rather steam-punky kind of way.
- Herb
You can always build them with an industrial chassis if you're looking for the "older" version, I suppose, but otherwise, nah.
But just you wait. Just you waiiiit!
Looking up the rules on Jet Boosters, the main hurdle is that it must be at least 10% of the engine's mass, so... hmmmm. It's sketchy, but if you put enough jump jets in your VTOLMech to meet that gear-to-engine-mass-ratio requirement, I could see successfully convincing a GM to let your VTOLMech achieve jet booster speeds--but only in VTOL mode. But in Mech mode, you'd have to explain which motive system you were using (Jump or VTOL) every time your Mech's feet left the ground, because the two movement types don't mix that way.
Which may provide seating for an extra MechWarrior, but since the humans of Syberia went and died off...
We have some interesting possibilities here that might be the focus of a story, anyway: Your options for that second pilot are a human, or a second AI inside the AutoMech. In both cases, the unit would provide a non-stacking +2 Initiative modifier for their side thanks to having a dedicated "tactical mind" in play over and above the core AI's actual combat processing. But when we get into the weeds of how the meat vs. machine works, well, NOW it gets fun, because...
...If it's a human pilot, he acts as much like a Headmaster as you can imagine shy of being able to eject ad run around the field as a small armored unit (but you'd only get THAT with something like a Machina Domini interface suit anyway). The human MW can drive the AutoMech if it becomes disabled, much the way Chip did when he remote-puppeted Prowl in that G1 episode where his battle computers were off-lined. This makes an adventure in which a human can "hijack" an AutoMech much easier, as a potential AutoMech body-snatcher could just wait until the AutoMech is shutdown, sneak into its noggin', disable its core AI somehow, and drive the machine away like any ol' BattleMech. Unless and until the inert AutoMech comes on-line again, the human pilot can make use of all the AutoMech's functions, but not any of its programmed skills or personality, and if the AI DOES come on-line, and doesn't like the human trying to play it like that, well, the AI and the human may find themselves fighting to control the body, which the AI may have an advantage on only as long as the human doesn't want to hurt the AI's main CPU. (Remember that our Syberians can't be overridden remotely; for that, you'd need codes that died with the human Syberians centuries ago, and no AutoMech is able/willing to give them up.)
...If the second pilot is another AI, you have some FUN character options for that AutoMech, as the second pilot is potentially a fully realized Syberian AI unto itself--effectively making your AutoMech a dual-personality machine--which can be good or bad news. You could have two simultaneously active and communicative, but ultimately in-synch, AIs in one body--a Rack-n-Ruin kind of AutoMech--or you can have conflicting AIs in the body--which would result in something more like Animated Blitzwing.
But, ALTERNATIVELY, the second AI could be little more than a repository CPU for a previously lost leadership-skilled AutoMech, perhaps one that was salvaged from a shell blown apart ages ago, when the skies over Syberia were still filled with the ashes of recently-devastated humanity and the fires of the AutoMechs' human cities still smouldered. Over the decades and centuries since, its piloting and gunnery protocols have been overwritten with expanded tactical and strategic data--a wealth of knowledge from experience, poured in from the overflowing processors of the main pilot AI. Or perhaps this second pilot AI is like a backup storage for the main, edited by revisions the main AI--and any of its similarly-equipped predecessors--has accumulated through experience before transferring the second pilot AI to a new host. In THAT case, your second pilot could be a silent mentor, synchronized with the AutoMech's main CPU and crammed with knowledge beyond the host AutoMech's own "living" experiences, but able only to communicate effectively with the right host's primary CPU, rather than just any other AutoMech. In this case, your second pilot is more like a "Leadership Protocol" or a "Database of Leadership" or some such, that can be passed along in the event the primary AI is corrupted or destroyed. This last option, naturally, would be EXTREMELY rare indeed, perhaps even unique to just one special AutoMech!
- Herb
Now that is an idea I hadn't considered...and that I'm totally going to have to use now.
One other thought: while Syberia mostly runs at an equivalent level of late Star League technology, there are a couple of items they have that are comparable to later Inner Sphere developments, like the wide variety of melee weapons. We'd also done conjecture on light autocannons and Thunderbolt missiles, since they're essentially slight variations on existing tech. What would your thoughts be on the other PPC variants, though, specifically the light PPC and heavy PPC? We already see the standard PPC, ER PPC and snub-nose PPC with Star League tech, and so I'm wondering if "like those, only bigger" or "like those only smaller" would be too much of a stretch for Syberian tech.
Nobody can do it like a steam (astro)train. Woo-woo! Sssssteam power!
You really want to throw in Starlight Express now?
Isn't your Emergence story related to that ship coming here to Nebula California? It was outdate stripped down Aegis Class Heavy Cruiser, leaving during the Amaris Coup, aka the end of the Star League Era. Some tech could have survived the AutoMech wars after it arriving, thus you would have some source tech. Such as the Heavy PPCs. This is going by your own canon if Emergence is still a thing.
Now that is an idea I hadn't considered...and that I'm totally going to have to use now.
One other thought: while Syberia mostly runs at an equivalent level of late Star League technology, there are a couple of items they have that are comparable to later Inner Sphere developments, like the wide variety of melee weapons. We'd also done conjecture on light autocannons and Thunderbolt missiles, since they're essentially slight variations on existing tech. What would your thoughts be on the other PPC variants, though, specifically the light PPC and heavy PPC? We already see the standard PPC, ER PPC and snub-nose PPC with Star League tech, and so I'm wondering if "like those, only bigger" or "like those only smaller" would be too much of a stretch for Syberian tech.
Nobody can do it like a steam (astro)train. Woo-woo! Sssssteam power!
You really want to throw in Starlight Express now?
>:D Reaching 10% of the Engine's mass in JJ shouldn't be too hard with a mech 40 tons or less and only in VTOL Mode works for me. :) Saying which motive type when jumping isn't a problem either. :) Now to see if I can make a TF Airwolf. >:D
Sounds very cool. The storage depository would be like the Matrix of Leadership?
I think we'd need to be careful about straying into Clan Tech. Not that I wouldn't mind Clan Tech AutoMechs or AutoMechs with more advanced IS tech but they shouldn't have them though without encountering them. I know we've made cases for things and we can make cases for more, like HVACs and MMLs, but at what point does SL research become someone else's? Much of Clan Tech was just them expanding on Star League Tech or continuing Star League Research. That would open the door to at least Clan Prototype Tech and at least a lot of IS Tech. Full Clan Tech is just another step further. Plus the Syberians don't have TriModal AutoMechs so they didn't have everything.
That all said, I'd be okay with it if they either had very limited production or they were the Syberian's version of Lostech. That or they the tech is just being introduced do to captured tech and possibly even personnel.
:)) Astrotrain wasn't the only steam locomotive. But he is the most notable. There's also other steam powered TFs.
Someone did Waspinator. (This is from Reddit)needs a set of rotor blades coming off his back (for the VTOL equipment, which i figure would be a counter-rotating setup), and maybe some landing struts sticking off (to look like insect legs)
(https://i.redd.it/pwdy6y78oyo81.jpg)
Have funsies!
I'd not want to go TOO deeply down that route if it can be avoided; I mean, sure, the Syberian settlers were Terran Hegemony robotics geniuses and such from a never-identified corporate entity, who somehow developed a portable AI system better than Caspars within 40 years of their arrival to the system...but having them push BEYOND 2765 SLDF tech in the 100-110 years of their existence gets "iffy." Still, if they could pull off ER PPCs and Snubbies, Light and Heavy Peepers are not that far of a skip. My judgment on these would be "it's possible."
No. Just... no. Nothing from RID or the other silly anime incarnations. I'm sticking to G1/Aligned, with some nods to Animated because I LOVED that series.
Bleh.
The notion here is that it's not just a storage repository, but a second AI that's become so overloaded with knowledge and data that it's become functionally incapable of doing more than dispensing information to a host AI that does the actual work of operating the machine. If it's in synch, it works like a "higher" consciousness and thus much like the G1 interpretation of the Matrix. I would never allow more than one of these in any campaign. We can't have EVERYONE be an Optimus Prime, after all.
See above. You appear to be sensing my concern now.
Remember also: the Syberian humans were completely wiped out. Use of WMDs is heavily implied or spelled out here. Likely targets might have included whole weapons production complexes and design centers. And the AutoMechs cannot innovate. What they have, in fact, is likely a step or two BACK from what their human masters achieved pre-extinction. And it's been centuries of constant conflict in their name, between armies that are probably already at their max resource and production rates. They've basically been fighting the Succession Wars for an extra century past the point the Inner Sphere was, and it's damned amazing they have any SLDF-level tech at all.
Sure, but... meh.
- Herb
needs a set of rotor blades coming off his back (for the VTOL equipment, which i figure would be a counter-rotating setup), and maybe some landing struts sticking off (to look like insect legs)
I've understood it. It's just a question of how far things can go. More ammo types for the Narc Missile isn't much of a stretch. Streak LRMs might be a bit out of reach. After all, they didn't have everything or there'd be Trimodal AutoMechs. (Unless they did and they died an early death.) So at what point did the Human's R&D stop and how much was lost from that point. Did they get to early Clan Tech or did they get even further or not even that far?
Makes me wish we did have more pre Age of War Weapons. And while AutoMechs can't innovate, Humans who visit the visit Syberia can. It probably isn't likely but I could see it happening. They'd probably be visited by the Star Empire before more visitors from the IS or Clans arrive. Having a campaign that starts when Humans were still there and continuing to now could be fun.
Meh? I suppose Scourge as a Blimp might be, although fun. Steam trains are fun though. The Seekers as steam powered biplanes and Shockwave as an steam powered ironclad warship are pretty cool. :)
needs a set of rotor blades coming off his back (for the VTOL equipment, which i figure would be a counter-rotating setup), and maybe some landing struts sticking off (to look like insect legs)
Oh, they DEFINITELY DID NOT reach early Clan tech. Peak Star League-ish Inner Sphere-level gear was the limit, or the whole BattleTech universe wouldn't make any sense at all! ;)
Not as long as the Star Empire has no FTL they won't. Sublight interstellar wars are nigh impossible to plan and execute. But then again, yeah, it's even more unlikely that the Inner Sphere or Clans ever would even take an interest, let alone specifically go to this place. As far as they're concerned, the CNAZ doesn't even exist, and the ships lost in that region over the centuries are just drops in the bucket of how many others have been lost to the Deep Periphery in every direction.
The trouble with Hearts of Steel, while it looked pretty interesting, was how it played fast and loose with the times. The Seekers were biplanes in the late 1800s, before powered flight even existed, so how were there forms even a disguise? And most of the ground forces had to be locomotives, making their presence far from rails a rather conspicuous sight. That their weapons also devolved into cannons of the period was a bit weird, and I know there were a lot of inconsistencies the comics had when dealing with those events--to the point where they ultimately created some new characters and said they were all mind-wiped to not remember everything. And yeah, Shockwave as a transforming ironclad was awesome.
Now, it should be pointed out that the rules given in Nebula California DO strictly limit engine choices to fusion and fuel cells, but there's no reason there can't be a steampunk aesthetic painted over the whole thing like a veneer. One just needs to get creative with it, and if you want more primitive crap, well, there was XTR: 1945...
:) Good to know. SO Improved Weapons are out. Did they expand the weapons classes the way the Clans did LB-Xs, UACs, ER Lasers, Streak SRMs? Or did they feel about them the same as the SLDF? One being enough?
All that plus with the events going on at the moment, everyone's too busy to go off exploring.
Yeah, I just figure it's an alternative Earth where technology developed a little faster so there were more steam powered vehicles around. :) That he is. Could there be an alternative Syberia? Maybe some of the Humans abandoned planet to start over and their tech declined so much that they use steam power?
I suppose a steampunk veneer would work. Why were engines limited to only fusion and fuel cells? If there were, how heavy would steam engines be? Range?
I've wondered if either using ICEs with reduced range or using Fuel Cell Engines with the Primitive Modifier so they'd be a little heavier but not outrageously so would work. I've also wondered about twice the crits for additional fuel. One for fuel and one for water as they'd need both.
Then he's not Waspinator, but Wasp? (In TF Animated, Wasp was a rival of Bumblebee's who was wrongly imprisoned for espionage, went nuts, and was later hybridized into Waspinator by Black Arachnia. As Wasp, though, he was a green and yellow 'bot.)was thinking more the Beast Wars style.
Then he's not Waspinator, but Wasp? (In TF Animated, Wasp was a rival of Bumblebee's who was wrongly imprisoned for espionage, went nuts, and was later hybridized into Waspinator by Black Arachnia. As Wasp, though, he was a green and yellow 'bot.)
- Herb
Cazador VTOL Veemech
Mass: 25 tons
Chassis: Standard Biped
Power Plant: 125 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
1 Medium Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-X-X-D
Cost: 1,587,917 C-bills
Type: Cazador
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 25
Battle Value: 379
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 2.5
Engine 125 Fusion 4
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
VTOL MP: 5
Vehicle mode VTOL
Cruise MP: 8
Flank MP: 12
Heat Sink 10 0
Gyro 2
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor 56 3.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 5
Center Torso 8 7
Center Torso (rear) 2
R/L Torso 6 6
R/L Torso (rear) 2
R/L Arm 4 6
R/L Leg 6 7
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
Conversion Gear LL 1 - 1.0
2 Rotors RT 4 - 2.0
3 Heat Sinks RT 3 - 3.0
Conversion Gear LA 1 - 1.0
3 Rotors LT 6 - 3.0
2 Heat Sinks LT 2 - 2.0
Conversion Gear RL 1 - 1.0
Medium Laser RA 1 3 1.0
Conversion Gear RA 1 - 1.0
was thinking more the Beast Wars style.
...
personally i kinda like the idea that in Syberia, his type is a 20-25 ton VTOL veemech based off an updated WSP-1 Wasp.
if you had to use a proper vehicle mode instead of a "faux-animal/kaiju" mode, could see the result being something akin to the Donar..
hmm.. 1 ML, light armor, high speed.
(also.. a switch to a pure vehicle mode without 'cosmetic enhancements' could easily be used to represent cases where the AutoBoP's and DemoCons have salvaged some AxiMaL chassis types for their own use, captured a factory and put them into production with their own IFF and faction codes, or the very rare defector. or if you just want to drop the blatant elements of the animal theme. which is fair since beast wars kinda did by season 2 and 3 with the transmetals)
Saker Aerial Veemech
Mass: 30 tons
Chassis: Standard LAM
Power Plant: 120 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Jump Jets: Standard
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
2 Medium Laser
2 SRM 2
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3150
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-X
Cost: 2,142,595 C-bills
Type: Saker
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Tonnage: 30
Battle Value: 537
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 3
LAM Conversion Equipment 4.5
Engine 120 Fusion 4
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4
AirMech Cruising MP: N/A
AirMech Flanking MP: N/A
Safe Thrust: 4
Max Thrust: 6
Heat Sink 10 0
Gyro 2
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor 72 4.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 7
Center Torso 10 10
Center Torso (rear) 3
R/L Torso 7 9
R/L Torso (rear) 2
R/L Arm 5 7
R/L Leg 7 8
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
2 Heat Sinks LL 2 - 2.0
Communications Equipment RT 2 - 2.0
2 Jump Jets RT 2 - 1.0
Medium Laser LA 1 3 1.0
SRM 2 LA 1 2 1.0
SRM 2 Ammo (50) LT 1 - 1.0
2 Heat Sinks LT 2 - 2.0
2 Jump Jets LT 2 - 1.0
2 Heat Sinks RL 2 - 2.0
Medium Laser RA 1 3 1.0
SRM 2 RA 1 2 1.0
I have been building them pretty strictly to the rules I set out, but I've also been gradually coming around to the notion of *some* expansions as well. For instance, the SW-era Binary Laser, and the RW-era Primitive Rocket Launchers. I can readily see arguments for them delving into expanding weapons across their size categories if they already unlocked one of the type, which makes all the ER Lasers, Streak SRMs, LBXs and UACs possible, but I feel they should be WAY more rare, if only because they have basically been fighting their own Succession Wars for 400+ years with no innovators in sight, and no actual restraints against factory destruction. They didn't have a ComStar going around murdering scientists, but then again, they didn't need to at their scale of warfare. Plus, of course, they developed every flavor of physical weapon for some reasons that likely included entertainment.
It's just a fringe terrorist group. The Empire's got the whole thing under control...
Mmmm. Could be, Rabbit. Could be...
The limits because these were still BattleMechs and IndustrialMechs being made for use in all kinds of harsh environs, including vacuum and underwater. ICEs were impractical for such tech and the Syberians never bothered with them. Steam engines would be just plain wacky, and have never been allowed for 'Mechs as far as I can recall offhand. If they were, I would consider them to have two big problems: High weight (about 2.8-3 TIMES as heavy as a comparable fusion reactor), and oversized form (as in, either treated as a Large Engine with +2 CT crits, or as a Light Engine, with +2 engine crits in each side torso; the latter would make them unusable in a transforming 'Mech right out of the gate, though).
Again, see above. The Syberians built for all environs, what with their main planet being a hot, thin-aired, water-poor world. Drilling for oil and/or diverting precious water resources for steam engines posed environmental risks they could ill afford (not that transforming their planet into a higher-tech industrial powerhouse was necessarily good for them either, but, well, that's humanity for ya).
- Herb
Heh. In my headcanon, I gave him the Wraith Alexander Mech mode, and the Tonbo Superheavy Transport copter for his beast mode. The Wraith because of its slim and round-everything body type, and the Tondo for being a VTOL with extra legs. (He and the other Beast Wars Preds are in my spreadhseet from a few pages back as well.)
ICYMI: I handled the Maximals and Preds using your original AxiMaLs as a start point, Glitterboy, and picked out the following for figure approximations:
(snip)
- Herb
was thinking more the Beast Wars style.
(snip)
(also.. a switch to a pure vehicle mode without 'cosmetic enhancements' could easily be used to represent cases where the AutoBoP's and DemoCons have salvaged some AxiMaL chassis types for their own use, captured a factory and put them into production with their own IFF and faction codes, or the very rare defector. or if you just want to drop the blatant elements of the animal theme. which is fair since beast wars kinda did by season 2 and 3 with the transmetals)
Sounds cool. :) So would Clan Prototypes be available since their performance is that of later IS versions? Not the Improved or advanced Clan Tech but the prototypes from Operation Klondike. Rare is good. :thumbsup:
I can see ICEs not being suitable do to the environment. (Although they can be used on Submarines. ??? ) And yes steam engines would be wacky. :) How about fission or battery power though?
I wouldn't go with Large Engines. I know it's tempting looking at steam trains but diesel locomotives are big too.
Plus steam powered cars used to out sell internal combustion cars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_car Acording to Wiki, it was the electric starter and some laws that killed off steam ad electric powered cars. Wiki also says that steam engines were smaller and lighter. So using Large Engines wouldn't seem to fit. TM does make steam engines the heavier for support vehicles though. That's why I wondered about using the 1.2 Primitive Engine Modifier from IO. It'd make Steam Engines heavier but not unusable. So a 20 ton 6/9 SteamMech would have a 145 Engine Rated weighing 10 tons. A 20 6/9 ICE Mech would have a 120 engine rated weighing 8 tons.
The Primitive Wasp does work good for Waspinator and the Donar looks good with it too. :thumbsup:
i can buy the "PresiDom's" (whats that short for by the way?) being a little heavier, but not by too much, otherwise it runs the risk of them being able to completely overpower the other side. in the show they didn't seem to be much tougher in most cases, they just tended to be more "combat centric" (often with more or bigger guns). which is part of why i made the AxiMaLs i wrote up generally focused more on speed with less firepower, with minor exceptions.
plus i kinda like the idea that the waspinator expy is light weight cannon fodder. :)
there were enough toys that didn't make it into the show (or outright recolors) though that you could probably keep the Wraith/Tonbo one though.. would make a good support unit, especially if it was presented as more of a slower heavy-lift design.
If Wasp and Bumblebee are both scouts, then they would have similar jobs and often be targets of each other. So that could be a latent upgrade to the code where both of them prefer to target their opponent (i.e. willing to accept a 2-pt to-hit difference in order to engage their rival)
had trouble with the name.. we'll just assume that the Scorpion Empire and the Syberians will never meet.. :)
The Cazador VeeMech is a rapid air-response unit for the Axilon biodome, often seen patrolling the airspace of the southern continent. While its AI is known to be somewhat simple minded and prone to quirky behavior, the design's mobility and relatively low resource cost has seen it produced in large numbers. Given the rate of attrition the design often suffers when facing the heavier denizens of Syberia's major factions, this rate of production is often barely sufficient to ensure sufficient numbers for the biodome's defense.
(i used 1 ton cargo slots for the conversion gear and pairs of 1/2 ton fluid storage for the rotors.. reallywish someone would ass the Syberian's to megamek and megameklab already)
decided to take a crack at Airazor.. i'm imagining a fighter mode akin to one of the WOB Spectral fighters (just without the chin gun they all seem to use) or the Shrack with the articulated wings, not sure about the mech mode.
No! NO CLAN STUFF! *baps RifleMech on the nose with a rolled up AARP magazine*
Once fusion becomes available, what's the appeal of fission, really? Same with batteries. The Syberians just had no use for such tech when they had power systems that were already inherently superior. (Although it's possible such tech was used elsewhere, they certainly didn't use it in AutoMech design.)
I was looking more at the support vehicle tables, which give a fairly clear indicator to how the weights are computed for various engine types across a given tech rating. And, dude, we're talking about how to use steam power in the construction of autonomous giant robots capable of doing battle with lasers and particle cannon! Real-world comparisons are broken!
:)) ;D Lol! I was wondering because it ends up being heavier, taking more crits, and or generating more heat than IS stuff. So the tech progression would be SLDF, CP, IS.
Other than one faction isn't as advanced for some reason? I suppose there isn't much use other than maybe entertainment value. It's the entertainment value that made me wonder about really the big TFs. Max them out at 100 tons and then use miniatures for props and extras. A 100 ton Astrotrain lands, mini TFs come out and then Astrotrain Converts. Cut to next seen and full size versions are next to Astrotrain potting their attack. Things like that. It's what I thought for combiners too. Normal sized TFs converge and start to convert, a little CGI, and there's a Superheavy Devastator. But then I'm not sure if the Humans were interested in that kind of entertainment. Maybe they just liked Gladiatorial Games?
I looked at them too. They have steam being heavier. Which is why I thought about using the 1.2 modifier to determine engine rating. For current engines. Primitive would double that. While a 2 ton difference doesn't seem like much for a 20 ton mech, that is 10% of the mech's weight. For a 100 ton mech it'd be a lot more. The speed would also be maxed out at 3/5 with a 360 rated engine at 66 tons. A 100 ton fusion mech's 300 engine only weighs 19. A 300 ICE engine is 38 tons. So the Steam Engine does end up being heavier. And of course it'd need a power amplifier on top of that. It'd need heat sinks too. And no Jump Jets and any engine hit risks a steam explosion. That's how it'd work in my head any way.
I guess we could just fake it. Liquid storage for the boilers, and sprayers to spray steam and smoke. It doesn't quite feel the same though.
No, but that's kind of just it, I feel. The Transformers could take on local vehicle FORMS, but they were still Cybertronian robots under all the kibble, and they should have retained Cybertronian technology under all the gears and smoke. I mean, I can see an argument for them picking older ballistics as a way to make even their combat prowess "blend in" with the human technology, but those guns on ironclad Shockwave could have been more akin to the cannons of a 21st century tank than the block powder pieces of Civil War-era boats. Fully embracing the local tech when you have something better is kinda dumb-ish. The US doesn't withhold our drone bombers when they fight an enemy who's making do with 1950s Cold War surplus, after all.
- Herb
Doesn't apply much to the Syberians, except maybe for Junkion-expys, but one reason a Transformers faction might use subpar indiginous weapons is if their own are in short supply, either in the form of ammunition, or spare parts.
Also, side note, did you intend for the Star Empire to also be the perfect setting for some ex-insurrectionists to be running around in a DRoST converted into a cargo ship?
No! NO CLAN STUFF! *baps RifleMech on the nose with a rolled up AARP magazine*My hero! :smitten:
*snip*
Still. No. Clans are bad. M'kay?
Nah. Combiners aren't that entertaining. ;) They probably like gladiator games, though, given the range of physical combat weapons they made.
The Syberians are relatively unique in that they didn't blow themselves past the point of losing fusion production, and it's likely that Syberia has little to no fossil fuels to speak of. They built their societies on a pretty solid fusion and fuel cell base. ICEs and battery-powered units may have found a niche, but it's probably a small one. Hmmm. Maybe that's what the JUniCom faction uses! They are the Junkion expy after all...
Right, but then you're rapidly running out your internal space and mass, which your AutoMech probably already lost a bunch already to conversion systems. I mean, look, if it's what you want on YOUR table, that's fine--and may yet be found elsewhere in the CNAZ on some Girl Genius-style, Steampunk-themed planet--but the Syberians never needed to settle for sub-fusion tech.
No, but that's kind of just it, I feel. The Transformers could take on local vehicle FORMS, but they were still Cybertronian robots under all the kibble, and they should have retained Cybertronian technology under all the gears and smoke. I mean, I can see an argument for them picking older ballistics as a way to make even their combat prowess "blend in" with the human technology, but those guns on ironclad Shockwave could have been more akin to the cannons of a 21st century tank than the block powder pieces of Civil War-era boats. Fully embracing the local tech when you have something better is kinda dumb-ish. The US doesn't withhold our drone bombers when they fight an enemy who's making do with 1950s Cold War surplus, after all.
- Herb
No! NO CLAN STUFF! *baps RifleMech on the nose with a rolled up AARP magazine*
My hero! :smitten:
True. Very true. I totally get what you're saying. :thumbsup: I'm thinking about those who never quite got that far or who's tech has declined so they have to make do with older technolgies. Like using 1950's tech to make a flux capacitor or older tech to get a tricorder to work.
I'm reminded of the one episode where Starscream, and I think long haul meet up with Merlin, via time travel shenanigans and The Decepticons invented gunpowder to fight the Autobots. (Its been a while)
That's basically what you may start to get if the worlds of the CNAZ start actually interacting, such as the opening fiction of WttNC, where the original Grimdark somehow wound up on Toreel.
- Herb
I believe that is the Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court (https://youtu.be/ci98CseGP-g) episode of the second season. Rumble, Ravage, and Ramjet joined Starscream in the far past, with Hoist and Warpath following them. Not the the most impressive episode, but still fun.
After reading this thread I am looking at some of the comments of the different worlds meeting and non have FTL to travel.
You do have all those wizards casting spells that open Gates to other worms a a few stick around for some reason.
You also have the superhero world and you know they have mad science somehow to visit new worlds and time lines that they seem to make up all the time in comics or explain all the aliens that show up from somewhere.
There is the thoughts of some of the weird monsters from add that have been used like very big dragons vs transformer or the huge track that seems to only be killed by beat down and a wish. The fighting of would you stat giants or some of very big things like Karmen.
The funny thought is the wizard looks at the platoon of stormtroops that open fire on the lone orc which is looking about to crap his pants after finding himself alive after 28 troopers open fire on him. Till the wizard does the face Palm and call the trooper idiots and tosses a lighting bolt at the orc killing the poor bastard.
After reading this thread I am looking at some of the comments of the different worlds meeting and non have FTL to travel.
You do have all those wizards casting spells that open Gates to other worms a a few stick around for some reason.
You also have the superhero world and you know they have mad science somehow to visit new worlds and time lines that they seem to make up all the time in comics or explain all the aliens that show up from somewhere.
There is the thoughts of some of the weird monsters from add that have been used like very big dragons vs transformer or the huge track that seems to only be killed by beat down and a wish. The fighting of would you stat giants or some of very big things like Karmen.
The funny thought is the wizard looks at the platoon of stormtroops that open fire on the lone orc which is looking about to crap his pants after finding himself alive after 28 troopers open fire on him. Till the wizard does the face Palm and call the trooper idiots and tosses a lighting bolt at the orc killing the poor bastard.
Ooh so we might get myomer powered catapults and such? ^-^
Sorry for bringing it up again but I am confused. Rule wise, what's the difference between the SLDF LB-X-P, and the Clan LB-X-Ps? They seem to follow the same rules and use IS ranges. I know that the Clans made them, and "Clan Bad", but they use SLDF technology. The Clans just did what the SLDF didn't want to. So are they Clan because the Clans made them or are they SLDF because they use SLDF technology? :-\ ???
Was that the episode where Warpath went jousting? Does that mean we can have AutoMechs riding other AutoMechs? Maybe Mech sized converting Motorcycles will work after all. >:D
depends on how far you want to take the idea that the california nebula remains part of the BT setting.. true D&D or superhero settings certainly might have that sort of ability, but as part of the battletech setting where KF drives are the only way to get around, it is heavily implied that they don't have such stuff. that the Star Empire next door lacks FTL would seem to support that idea.
that said, i could see anyone with fusion based sublight drives attempting for slowboat non-ftl travel of some sort (Syberians of course could probably just wait it out, or go into a hibernation mode on their AI's, while the human denizens of the star empire might try for a generation ship or cryogenic sleep). given the signifigant fractions of C that BT fusion drives can conceivably acheive, such trips would be reduced to 'merely' decades rather than centuries or millennia.
and i also wonder how many jumpships might have found their way into the region. exploration groups, refugees, colony efforts, etc. it seems to me that there might well have been a jarnfolk style nomadic spacers culture present.(and Cannonshop's story even had the Star League sending caspar type warships into the area to supply syberia)
Don't expect me to stat them.
Clan because the Clans made them and that means their engineering leads to Clan technology, whereas the only reason Inner Sphere tech is turning to Clan tech in the 3150s is because they're finally figuring out how to economically copy Clan engineering, instead of relying on tried-and-true Inner Sphere methods. If it really didn't matter what the difference was, the end points would be the same, but they're not.
Well, now, those would be the old External Cargo rules, now, wouldn't they?
Enough to colonize way more systems than we saw in WttNC, that's for sure! My map shows at least 23 worlds' worth of potential human encroachment.
- Herb
See that's what's confusing me. The prototypes I'm referring to were only expanded on what the Star League already had. Not unlike the IS expanding on PPCs with the Light and Heavy classes. The Clans improved on the PPC and ERPPC with the Improved and Enhanced PPCs before improving them further with their ERPPC. So I'm confused. If they were prototypes for the improved Clan Tech, I'd understand but these are basically prototypes of IS production quality weapons. Oh well. It's not the first time BT has totally confused me. :-\
Technically speaking, all Clan tech derives from Star League tech, and is what you get when you focus on improving your gizmos over a few centuries instead of letting your enemies flatten all your manufacturers willy-nilly, while a shadowy "neutral" party casually erases all the back-ups even as you keep paying them for the phone service. But when you say "the prototypes are the same, whether Clan or Inner Sphere," I start hearing a whispered "...so it's only a matter of time before they work out Clan technology!" in there, and I get...irked. I don't want my Syberians tainted by anything with the Clan label. They're G1, damn it, not anime Transformers! The Clans, with their furry tendencies and rampant sexuality, are anime, and I won't have it in my Syberian headcanon, Cat damn it! Grrrr! :ticked:
- Herb
:) It wouldn't be me doing that. Things that are more advanced than Star League Tech are Clan Tech, post 3060 IS Tech, or Third League Tech. ;D Some more advanced IS tech is arguable based on fluff. If I used those items they'd be very rare or limited just to special teams. But the advanced Clan Tech stuff is out. :thumbsup:
... Third League Tech... *sniff*
- Herb
:-\ What's wrong with Third League Tech?
No! NO CLAN STUFF! *baps RifleMech on the nose with a rolled up AARP magazine*the only clan item i could possibly see is chemical lasers, since they are supposed to be older tech from before even the development of standard lasers. but even then we don't know what an IS tech version would have for stats.
PresiDom = Presidential Domains (Aligned with DemoCon).what background did you have in mind?
Nothing... I just... had such high hopes for it...
*sigh*
So, anyway, about these AutoMechs?
- Herb
the only clan item i could possibly see is chemical lasers, since they are supposed to be older tech from before even the development of standard lasers. but even then we don't know what an IS tech version would have for stats.
the only clan item i could possibly see is chemical lasers, since they are supposed to be older tech from before even the development of standard lasers. but even then we don't know what an IS tech version would have for stats.
what background did you have in mind?
Oh. I liked them. I'm hoping they'll become standard one day. Or maybe they could show up in the Nebula?
Third League Tech AutoMechs? :o >:D The Urbie LAM lives! ;D :thumbsup:
I was wondering about the Operation Klondike Prototypes because they just expanded on Star League tech the same way the IS did later on with Blazers and Light and Heavy PPCs. The Star League could have produced them. They just didn't. Improved or more advanced though I would say is out. Except physical weapons, unless there's an IS version, and chemical lasers as they're an older weapon. There's other things that I'd be okay with in very limited quantities because fluff for SLDF units mentions those kind of abilities. Some would probably need quirks though do to crit limits. Beyond that though...it gets slippery.
Honestly? Not sure. Similar to the Democratic Conglomerate, I imagined them to be something like a corporatocracy feigning or abusing democratic principles in the name of legitimacy. You know, the kind of state that claims it gives its people what they want by holding meaningless elections while ensuring that no foreign commercial competition exists within their borders that doesn't feed the money back toward its ruling elite in a closed cycle. The freedom of the company store. That kind of thing. And I kind of saw their AutoMechs taking animal and monster forms as a result of their initially being meant for entertainment like a kind of high-tech, robotic answer to Jurassic Park or as automated gladiators.perhaps a collection of private holdings within or nearby to the Axilon facility belonging to various oligarchs? so they're fighting over much the same resources (including the dome itself) as a remnant of old internal power struggles over control of the project that built the biodome complex. would let them use much the same mix of automech types as the AxiMaLs, since they started as basically the private zookeepers and defenses of groups within the project's organization, using basically the same plans and factory sources.
I suppose, but we'd be talking something noticeably inferior to what the Clans made, which is basically a slightly cooler, ammo-dependent version of the standard Inner Sphere laser system. Their optimal value is on vehicles, because they get counted as ballistic weapons on those units, ProtoMechs, and conventional fighters--requiring no heat sinks or power amplifiers to maintain their effectiveness. But the Syberian AutoMechs are mostly 'Mechs and aerospace units, which DO require heat sinks to handle such weapons and usually DON'T require power amps for energy weapons anyway. Toss in the explosive chemical laser "ammo," and it's more risk to use them than it is to use a standard laser. (There was a reason such weapons went obsolete, as you can probably see now.)
AutoMechs? They're already there. That's kind of what this whole thread is about, isn't it?
Now you're just trying to piss me off...
*turns in the rolled up AARP magazine and reaches for the first edition of Strategic Operations*
C'mere, kid...
IF we were to allow prototyping of post-3050 Inner Sphere technology, my advocacy would be to apply the Inner Sphere Recovered Tech Prototype rules in conjunction with any new item added to the list as appropriate, limit everything strictly to its Inner Sphere format, and a MAXIMUM intro date of 3060 tech. This would give us:
*All the LB-X ACs
*All the Ultra ACs
*Light Gauss Rifle
*All the ER Lasers
*Snub-Nose PPC (gets a pass on its 3067 intro date by dint of having been in active development back in the 2780s)
*All Streak SRMs
*NO MRMs - They came out pre-3060, but are not really Star League derived.
*All Rocket Launchers (they were around as far back as the Reunification Wars in Primitive format, and the IS revived them in 3050, apparently, so...why not?)
*Special Exemption: NO C3 tech. I hate that crap! I DO like the proposed "C3-light" that was discussed here a few pages back, as it was solidly researched and traced back top SL origins, whereas the Dracs apparently devised their C3s independently; I could see using that "light C3" tech as an item specific to bonded teams, though. In other words, that tech is what makes the "combiners," "triple changers," and "mobile city groups" coordinate so well. (The cassettes are still drones linked to their host unit.)
As to small drones--the ones we've been talking about on a battle armor scale--I can actually see letting them have the BA-scale equivalents to all "unlocked" weapons, rather than sitting on them by intro date. But just remember that battle armor drones are built using Inner Sphere tech with the heavier Clan chassis weight to represent their internal robotics (which are tactically equivalent to the +1 point of "pilot" each suit gets in combat).
- Herb
perhaps a collection of private holdings within or nearby to the Axilon facility belonging to various oligarchs? so they're fighting over much the same resources (including the dome itself) as a remnant of old internal power struggles over control of the project that built the biodome complex. would let them use much the same mix of automech types as the AxiMaLs, since they started as basically the private zookeepers and defenses of groups within the project's organization, using basically the same plans and factory sources.
Yeah, I never got that. Did the Clans just build new chemical lasers from old plans or did they upgrade them? They match IS performance which makes me think that they just went with old plans. I would think that if they'd upgraded them, they'd be lighter. The exploding ammo would be a problem as well as heat for AutoMechs. I suppose if they were using FCE they might think about them. They wouldn't need power amplifiers. And they would be good for non-converting vehicle AIs.
I like them too. I meant Third League Tech though.
The cost modifiers in IO page 186 or do you mean the Primitive Prototype Equipment rules on page 118? ???
So the Light and Heavy PPCs, the Heavy Gauss Rifle and LACs don't make the list. Oh well. That's still a lot to play with. :) What about MMLs? They're 3068 but just odd sized LRMs and SRMs in the same package. Not that I use them much either. Just wondering.
Do you mean the combat computer on the Fury Tank I mentioned earlier or something else? C3 isn't my favorite either but I'd only use it on combiners as a special team equipment.
These would just be IS BA Weapons and equipment, right?
Type: C-101 Legionnaire
Technology Base: Cyberic (Battlesuit)
Mass: 400 kg
Swarm/Leg Attack/Mechanized/AP: Yes/Yes/Yes/Yes
AToW BAR Values: 4/5/6/5; E/I/C: 0/0/0/0
Equipment Slots Mass (kg)
Internal Structure: Robotic 130
Motive System:
Ground MP: 3 50
Jump MP: 0 0
Manipulators:
Right Arm: Basic Manipulator 0
Left Arm: Basic Manipulator 0
Armor: Standard 100
Armor Value: 2 + 1 (Console)
Weapons and Ammo Location Slots Mass (kg)
None -- -- --
You knew I'd have to ask eventually... Blazer Cannons? ??? :D
You know Wheeljack-analogue probably used one for a while ;D
As far as doing the Blazer thing with Mediums or Smalls, Smalls are right out. A single Medium Laser is better overall. A Medium one MIGHT be useful (7 or 8 points of damage for 6 heat at 3/6/9 range could be worth it, but I'd usually rather have two Mediums).
It's implied, I think, that they did improve them to achieve the results they got. Remember that the Clan heavy lasers are also basically IS in terms of range and mass, but with heat and damage equal to double them. If a theoretical Clan version of the standard-strength laser is simply half the weight, you'd get the heavy laser simply by mounting such standard lasers in pairs.
Cost has nothing to do with it. The AutoMechs don't have an economic system as we know it. I mean the gameplay and construction rules, on whichever page of whichever book they happen to be in. (My books here are all from pre-2016.)
Nope.
Was that you who made up some rules for them? I can't recall.
No, they'd be 1945 BA Weapons and equipment! ::) Of course they'd be IS BA weapons, you goof! I said BA equivalents to all "unlocked" weapons, meaning all the weapons we allow the Syberians to have, and I also said that the BAs are built with IS tech, with Clan chassis weights used only to reflect the AI robotics inside.
Here, an example of what I mean:
That is a battlesuit made as I recommended (unarmed because it's meant to carry weapons by hand). Every component in the construction data is of standard Inner Sphere weight except for the internal chassis, which uses the heavier Clan weight. (Inner Sphere chassis weights are lighter because they lack the HarJel sealing and other other life-sustaining subsystems the Clans use; at the scale of the suit shown here, an Inner Sphere version would have an 80 kg Internal Structure.
- Herb
Which is why we won't be seeing those. :) Hell, I *considered* adding in an AC/15, but the last time I tried to stat one, I found that it was outperformed in every way by the Gauss Rifle, and thus was pointless.
And so... here we are.
- Herb
A 3025-tech AC/15 SHOULD be outperformed by a Gauss Rifle in every way... no worries on that score! :thumbsup:
Seriously, 4/8/12 range, 5 heat, 13 tons, 9 crits and 7 (or even 6) rounds per ton would be absolutely perfect! :)
That's the thing though. I'm not sure it's implied or not. We know they found chemical lasers in their archives and decided to try them. But did they go with the plans from the archives or did they reinvent them? I would have thought that if they'd reinvented them they'd be lighter.
So the Primitive Prototype Rules? The ones where energy weapons generate 50% more heat and ballistic weapons jam on a 2 and have 3/4s the ammo?
The ones for the Nirasaki Combat Computer on the Fury Tank? Yeah, that was me.
Oooh 1945 BA weapons! ;D IS is good. I'm going to guess IS Infantry weapons too.
I don't think the AC/15 would be pointless. Sure the Gauss Rifle is better but not every unit has an extra 2 tons to mount it. It'd also be easier to build for those who's lost the ability to make Gauss Rifles. The AC also has alternative munitions so that's another plus in the AC/15's favor.
A Small Blazer I can see being pointless. Just go with a Medium and get better range. A Blazer that fits in between the Medium and Large Lasers though. That I can see.
Something like
Light Blazer Cannon
Heat 6
Damage 7
Range 0/4/8/12
Weight 3 tons
That's not a Blazer, though... to make one, you take two existing laser cores, get all the heat, the same range, and 1.5 x the damage...
I think so. :) I think if the AC/15 had been available, a lot of units would have downgraded from the Gauss Rifle to it rather than the AC/10.
Shame the IS factions decided it wasn't worth the R&D costs. ;) Or maybe the Blazer just won the generals over and took all the AC/15's funding...because if ANYONE was gonna throw money at a lower-tech answer to the GR, it WOULD be Steiner.
Right... It wouldn't be a faction known for autocannon love and which worked out how to make what was basically snub-nosed autocannons and then strap six of them together to go BRRRT, it would be the faction which developed Light and Silver Bullet Gauss.
That's not a Blazer, though... to make one, you take two existing laser cores, get all the heat, the same range, and 1.5 x the damage...
As the words (that I wrote) put it: "Seeking a more weight-economical alternative to vehicle-mounted lasers (which often require power amplifiers on non-fusion units), Clan Hell's Horses recently returned to the chemical laser concept. Though reliance on chemical "ammunition" (which remains as energetic and highly toxic as the early laser versions) promises to reduce their endurance in combat, the resulting weapons may be mounted on non-fusion vehicles without requiring power packs or heat sinks." (p. 320, TO).
The Horses returned to the concept of these weapons, not the actual lasers themselves, dusted off. A paragraph before, those lasers were classified as "the first effective energy weapons able to physically damage robust targets, like solid-fueled missiles and unarmored military vehicles," and were a reference weapons to basically the present state of laser weaponry today in 21st century. Even then, such weapons are useful only as anti-missile and anti-light vehicle weapons...things with a fairly thin skin of aluminum or sheet metal. In BT terms, we're talking maybe BAR 3-4, or maybe 5 if lucky...over the course of a second or three. That's early Tech C stuff, at best. What the Horses developed, at a tech rating of E, is powerful enough to slice into BAR 10 armor in a fraction of a second. It's not the same gear at all; it's an old idea that was reworked to 31st-century standards.
... Have the Inner Sphere Recovered Tech Prototype rules been dropped? pp. 102-104, original IO? Where energy weapons had +1D6 heat and a +1 to-hit modifier (reducing pulse lasers to only a -1 bonus, and saddling ERs with a +1), Ultras jammed on 4 while LBs jammed on 2, cluster hit tables for LBs were -1, but most other range, damage, mass, ammo counts, and crit space stats (with a few minor exceptions) were as they were in their perfected form.
But still, if you already have the production models of all those SL weapons and their most logical updates available at my 3060 cut-off, what are you asking for that's worth it with such handicaps?
Yup. Not crazy with how light they are, and would likely have to indicate why they can't be used with just any old unit for our Syberians (maybe the networks are hard-wired and require extended reprogramming to link with other "combiners"), but you did the research, and found a way to justify it being "available" to our Syberian settlers, so it comes into the realm of the possible.
Of course!
IF your force commonly uses alternate munitions, which most don't.
Here are the only advantages over the Gauss Rifle I found with my AC/15 idea: 2 tons lighter. No Minimum Range. Weapon does not explode on a critical.
Here's where the GR outperforms it: 4 points less heat. 10 hexes greater Long range. 2 crits smaller. GR is already proven; AC/15 hasn't even been prototyped yet. (Unlike Daryk's version, I came to an ammo count equal to that of the GR, by splitting the difference between the AC/10 & AC/20, then rounding up instead of down.)
If you DO drag C-bill cost into this, BTW, the AC/15 comes in at 25K, which is 5K cheaper than the GR, but again, the Syberians don't have a money-driven economy.
So, you would really only be picking your AC/15 if you were tons-poor, crit-rich, had the heat sinks to spare, AND you were more confident than not that the weapon would take a hit. (Or you were just a cheap bastard in a C-bill economy.) Is that all worth the R&D costs?
Something like
Light Blazer Cannon
Heat 6
Damage 7
Range 0/4/8/12
Weight 3 tons
How did your range go up? The Blazer uses the standard LL's range. A Medium Blazer would have the ML's range.
And, what Daryk said...
Shame the IS factions decided it wasn't worth the R&D costs. ;) Or maybe the Blazer just won the generals over and took all the AC/15's funding...because if ANYONE was gonna throw money at a lower-tech answer to the GR, it WOULD be Steiner.
- Herb
Okay. Returning to the concept makes sense. :thumbsup: I still don't think the primitive versions were that weak though. ICBMs are equivalent to Capital Scale Missile now so they'd need to be powerful enough to shoot them down. Spacecraft also had Primitive BAR-10 armor. They'd need to be able to damage them too.
Oh those rules! xp I searched for Recovered and got cost modifiers. Those would work fine. The recovered LB-10-X-P's rules are the same as the original SLDF prototypes rules and they also match the Clan's expanded LB-X-CP classes. The Clan's UAC-CPs are a tiny bit better than the SLDF/Recovered UAC/5-P. Jamming on a 3 or less instead of a 4, but the UAC/5-P did come first. The UAC-CPs still follow IS versions. There isn't much difference between the ER-CP Small Laser and the IS production version. The ER-CP Medium does weigh 1,5 tons though.
I was thinking that AutoMechs built with prototype or even primitive weapons and equipment could either be old survivors or used by factions who's tech has degraded some but not so much as to completely lose that tech. Of course it depends on when we play too. We could play in Syberian's early years and the AutoMechs are being issued with experimental weapons.
Thanks. :) Having the network be hard-wired and require reprogramming to work with other combiners would work. :thumbsup: I know they can swap team members now but they didn't used. So just working within specific teams without reprogramming totally fits. :)
I think it would be if you were one of those or tech poor. Autocannons are Tech C while Gauss Rifles are tech E. If you can't build it, buy it, or steal it, the advantages of the Gauss Rifle don't matter much.
i have to say that the "no clantech" restriction does cause me one trouble.. figuring out how to handle (BW) Scorpinok's cyberbee (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Cyberbee)drone. without VTOL BA as an option, its hard to model. on the otherhand, VTOL BA is one of those crazy ideas that seems unlikely to be developed more than once.
That all being said, though, there IS a hand-wave if you want prototype AutoMechs on Syberia without regressing back to the days before humanity died out there: Factory defects. They happen, and after centuries without human supervision, it's likely they happen a wee bit more than any inspection agency would consider acceptable, even for government work. So an AutoMech working with a prototype-quality autocannon may have merely rolled off the assembly line with a gun that had some defects in it that impair its features. The impaired weapon, for gameplay purposes, functions like a prototype, rather than a production-model weapon, and its defect is such that even repairs to it end up with the same result.... at least until the AutoMech gets sick of it and asks the local Wrenchit or Spanner to rip the damn thing out and put something more reliable in its place.
- Herb
Yes, but our present-day lasers still need a few seconds on target to make the target ignite, kind of like the phasers in original Star Trek. BattleTech's lasers hit faster and harder. (I'm also not sure I would call what we put on our missiles and rockets today to be BAR 10. Not really, at any rate.)
Yeah, but again, if our cutoff now is 3060 IS tech, the ER Lasers are proven. And, again, if it says "Clan" in the rules, I'm saying no. I don't care how similar it is, we use the Inner Sphere rules. Syberia is not a Kerensky brainchild.
I would imagine that, being automated and largely unable to creatively solve problems the humans did not anticipate for them, our AutoMechs will construct their units based on established specs, and repair/refit their units within an established range of products. At the time of the human extinction on Syberia, my presumption is that all factories were up to their intended specs, and the parts supplies and secondary manufacturers were as well. For salvaging purposes, a limited range would also need to be established for what is considered "salvageable" and what is considered "scrap and replace." The net effect of all this should be that units roll off the assembly lines in set configurations with no prototype gear (prototypes are built as one-offs and limited runs, generally because the components being prototyped are equally limited and unfinished to boot). Subsequent use of salvaged gear or personality-induced refits open up room for some variances, of course, which is how many of our named units--mostly veterans now--wind up with such different looks and loadouts than they probably came off the assembly line with...
That all being said, though, there IS a hand-wave if you want prototype AutoMechs on Syberia without regressing back to the days before humanity died out there: Factory defects. They happen, and after centuries without human supervision, it's likely they happen a wee bit more than any inspection agency would consider acceptable, even for government work. So an AutoMech working with a prototype-quality autocannon may have merely rolled off the assembly line with a gun that had some defects in it that impair its features. The impaired weapon, for gameplay purposes, functions like a prototype, rather than a production-model weapon, and its defect is such that even repairs to it end up with the same result.... at least until the AutoMech gets sick of it and asks the local Wrenchit or Spanner to rip the damn thing out and put something more reliable in its place.
Toy-wise, after Devastator, most combiner teams were made in such a way that you could swap in bots from other combiner teams, as long as they could assume the proper limb form. The more recent ones, though, have gone so far that those capable of being limbs can actually be either a leg or an arm depending on how you transform them. Still, I keep feeling there should be a way to further reinforce the selectiveness of a combiner-based networking system, because 0.5 tons/1 crit is really too easy to pop into any unit on the field and just say that, after a programming break later, now all the AutoMechs in a given army are in-network.
True enough... but nobody got around to it before the GR was everywhere, and the market never got there. FASAnomics!
- Herb
An alternative is that the bee is just a tiny VTOL drone support vehicle, period. You avoid the needless complications of the battle armor rules, and just basically build a fancy version of today's quad-copter drones. Give it a couple of those 10kg vehicular manipulators and it basically latches onto things rather than picking anything up because it's weight is so small.
- Herb
- Herb
Yeah. I wonder why FASA didn't go with a AC/15
Doesn't round as nicely.
Start with the ammo:
AC/2 --> 2 pts * 45 shot/ton = 90 damage/ton
AC/5 --> 5 pts * 20 shot/ton = 100 damage/ton
AC/10 --> 10 pts * 10 shot/ton = 100 damage/ton
AC/20 --> 20 pts * 5 shot/ton = 100 damage/ton
An AC/15 then would need to slot into this mix, and would presumably end up with 6 shots/ton, resulting in 90 damage/ton like an AC/2 does.
Then there's the matter of gun mass:
AC/2 = 6 tons
AC/5 = 8 tons
AC/10 = 12 tons
AC/20 = 14 tons
To make an AC/15 fit in, you'd really need to cut the weight of an AC/10 down to 10 tons, and set the AC/15 at 12 tons. Heat we'd similarly need to slot in there in between the AC/10 and the AC/20, and the AC/15 works out to 5 heat/shot then. Range, obviously, is 4/8/12, right in between the two canon cannons.
So, now, we have:
AC/5: 8 tons, 4 criticals, (3) 6/12/18 range, 5 damage, 20 shots/ton
AC/10: 10 tons, 7 criticals, 5/10/15 range, 10 damage, 10 shots/ton
AC/15: 12 tons, 9 criticals, 4//8/12 range, 15 damage, 6 shots/ton
AC/20: 14 tons, 10 criticals, 3/6/9 range, 20 damage, 5 shots/ton
So one problem is...why would you bother with an AC/20? The AC/15 is more compact, has better range, more ammo per ton, and is still a headcapper. It does, however, make the AC/10 a better competitor to the PPC, but it also makes the AC/5 even closer to being obsolete.
You might like the opening chapter for "Code of the Lifemaker", where the book describes what happens when a Von Neumann starship goofed up when setting up a self-replicating factory on a moon. Basically the factories and robots are trying to use backup systems and partial instructions to continue their initial orders of expand and industrialize. Because of the partial orders, the various factory expert systems are trying to patch programs together, while scrapper robots are consuming the poorly made/programmed robots.
I'm not sure we're dealing with currant lasers. BT history was more advanced than we are now in a lot of ways. They used the chemical lasers to shoot down ICBMs during the Second Soviet Civil War in 2014. I think ISP3 has ICBMs being equal to a capital missile. So the laser would need to be good enough to at least damage one if not kill it outright. I have wondered about applying the Primitive Prototype Rules to them. 50% more heat and 1/4 less ammo. I don't know what their stats would ultimately be but they should still shoot down missiles.
I hadn't thought about factory rejects. :thumbsup: That'll be fun! :) I was thinking prototypes could be like a MkI version with production quality being MkII. But that works as factory recalls too. :thumbsup:
I've seen how some of them have similar body stylings so they can be more than one body part for more than one big bot. Some teams even have more members than the big bot has body parts. (What do the left over team members do? ???) They didn't do that in the G1 animation though. So each team is just those few members unless one's destroyed and replaced.
Well, it could be a factory refit only, so it can't be done in the field. And the whole team would have to go in to be recalibrated with the new unit. Then each team member would need a successful maintenance roll for proper calibration or the entire team would have to do it all over again. If you want it could even take a couple maintenance cycles. The first to reset to zero and the second to get all the team calibrated right. That would make the process take longer and it'd keep the entire team off the battlefield instead of just the new member.
One issue with using tiny vehicles is that they can't use BA weapons or equipment. Unless we're changing that. Which I wouldn't mind really.
No humans means no Kiss Players, good!
Weird as it may sound, I really can't stand any of the anime interpretations of Transformers, and the more I hear of the Kiss Players series, the more I think there's something very wrong with the water in Japan....
- Herb
Kiss Players, I ask.. kinda scaried
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers:_Kiss_Players_(franchise)Not at all what I expected.. WTF
And that's all I will say on the matter.
- Herb
Not at all what I expected.. WTF
I was expected something like this Destroyer (https://i1.wp.com/www.kissarmysweden.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Robot.jpg?resize=719%2C474)
Odd, I do not remember ICBM rules in ISP3 at all. But making something in BT's present day "equal to" something in the past is really just a shorthand, when you boil it down. Formal canonical rules for the pre-2300s are largely non-existent, because most of the devs (past and present) never really felt it worthwhile to cover that, and thus anchor the game TOO closely to real life. (And besides, BT became based in "alternate history" around 1990 anyway. Our universes are not the same.)
To guard against external threats, the AAF maintains firebases housing crude but effective surface-to-orbit missile silos. Since these installations form a vital component of Covenant security, they are the only military target that both the ruling and dissident
factions have always agreed are completely off limits.
SDS FIREBASES
Each planet in the Alexandrian Covenant maintains at least one firebase capable of Surface-to-Orbit attacks (see pp. 109-110, Strategic Operations). These surface-to-orbit batteries are derived from older technology, but perform in gameplay in the same manner as a Barracuda capital missile. Each installation may house up to two capital missile launchers, equipped with 2 missiles each.
Recalls? The humans decide when the gear is recalled! The factories just keep building in the absence of QC.
Yeah, IIRC, the Constructicons have at least 2 extra members. It's likely that--in character--they stand as back-ups in the event that one is incapacitated. All other post-Devastator combiners, though, largely ran on the same 1 leader that acts as torso and head, with 4 teammates that act as limbs. Cartoon-wise, we never saw them mix and match, but toy-wise, you could do it. The same applies with the Combiner Wars/Power of the Primes-era toys, but they made even more characters combiner-compatible than before, so you could mix and match all over the place...though the team leader units always remained in the torso/head role when combined (so Motor Master, Onslaught, Elita One, Silverbolt, Hot Spot, and others like them could never be a limb; the engineering would never allow it).
That's promising.
I really don't see a problem there. Since we were discussing Beast Wars Scorponok's bees, though, I think we can live with that. They're basically just a BW variation on the cassette theme.
- Herb
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers:_Kiss_Players_(franchise)
And that's all I will say on the matter.
- Herb
Found it. Or them. It doesn't say ICBM but they're crude derived from an older technology silo based missiles. They sound like ICBMs.
<snip>
I know TPTB, past and present, don't care to give rules for pre-2300 tech but I wish they would because these weapons were still in use during the 2300s. It's a bit limiting and frustrating not having them and other ancient weapons. We can arm the TA and TH but what about the other Houses and the Periphery? It's like a PDF that came out not too long ago. It mentioned Black Powder Rifle Infantry but they didn't include stats for them. How do you play that scenario without their stats? ???
Of course. :) And either they Humans died before they could stop production and send out the recall or they did recall the weapons but hadn't destroyed them. So when the factory was destroyed the AutoMechs of that faction had to rely on the older recalled equipment.
I suppose so and I guess they could. I never mixed them like that though. I suppose it's cool that they can be swapped that way. Then you wouldn't have to get the entire team to have a big bot.
I suppose it isn't but the Cassettes, at least the Biped and Quad ones, would have BA weapons while vehicle cassettes would only have Infantry weapons.
These guys
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Eject_(G1) (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Eject_(G1))
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ramhorn_(G1) (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ramhorn_(G1))
would have much better weaponry, and armor, than these guys.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Grand_Slam_(G1) (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Grand_Slam_(G1))
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Raindance (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Raindance)
Would hover plane equal WiGE?
You don't. Or you make do with what rules already exist. It's really in how you want to play it on your table if it happens outside of canon. That's kind of the whole point of the gag products, to demonstrate ways one could go far afield in BattleTech and still keep a BattleTechy "feel."
But, sheesh! How did/would you survive playing this game in the 1990s if you find the lack of 1000 years of weaponry before the crop they had THEN so stifling?
Pretty much. All the factory bots care about is whether the part fits where it's designed to be, and has all its proper connectors in place. If it turns out the part is broken in some other way, they simply don't notice it as they move on to the next part of the conveyor belt. Meanwhile, a new AutoMech comes on-line whose ER Large Laser periodically goes crazy hot when fired, and his diagnostic systems insist nothing's wrong with it...but his AI gradually realizes otherwise when it starts complaining to fellow AutoMechs about it.
As long a you had others who could stand in for the missing members, yeah. You STILL needed a core leader and four members who could pull limb duty. It was really just a simplification in engineering in the toy company, I'd say.
It's not a perfect system, but yeah, that's basically it. There are basically "back-door" rules you could use to get around it, of course, such as recalling which battlesuit weapons equate to which Inner Sphere support weapons, then simply using that rule to justify mounting the BA-version to your micro-vehicle. But the caution should be that such a back-door no longer applies after you pass the five-ton limit, where your vehicle is now being treated as a "medium or larger" unit.
Ah, I vaguely remember having them. They were also a combiner team. An option in the Syberia rules we now have would be to amalgamate them as a single 2-ton battle armor "cassette."
Since WiGEs don't properly hover, I'd say no. I'd make it either a fixed with with VSTOL or a VTOL.
- Herb
We watch as riflemech opens the door to the Cali nebula.
Herbs cats escape.
They come back an hour later dragging anime and the clans with them back into the nebula.
Herbs finds put and starts pulling his hair out. Then grabs the rolled up AARP magazine and chases riflemech around like a bugs bunny cartoon till both are laying on the floor out of breath and the cats just lookmsmug off to the side.
Sorry, I had to post this silly thought.
We watch as riflemech opens the door to the Cali nebula.
Herbs cats escape.
They come back an hour later dragging anime and the clans with them back into the nebula.
Herbs finds put and starts pulling his hair out.
Then grabs the rolled up AARP magazine and chases riflemech around like a bugs bunny cartoon till both are laying on the floor out of breath and the cats just lookmsmug off to the side.
Sorry, I had to post this silly thought.
I didn't think it was a gag product. It was a Spotlight On or Touring of the Stars or something.
Back in the 1990's the Abrams had an AC/5 or an AC/10 depending on which variant it was. :) Now it'd have a HRC. BT is a lot different now. In a lot of ways that's good but not in everything. We can build the vehicles. We can armor them, up BAR-10 armor, but only for aerospace but we're missing a lot of the weapons.
4.999 tons or less is where the back-door is needed as they can't mount vehicle scale weapons. Or even more equipment. So it's either back-door BA stuff or use back-door the old Combat Equipment Rules to bump up infantry weapons power. The latter also lets those larger than 4.999 tons mount infantry weapons. It's a fun old rule but it only covers weapons though.
I was thinking of having them on their own, without the combiner part. Like the sensor drones from TRO:3026/3039. Sounder can release little drone bots or little vehicles. Only these little vehicles are armed.
How far does the line of Acme Products go? >:D
Damn it, RM!
That explains this bald spot...
I upgraded from the AARP magazine to the first printing of strategic Operations. From here, I may have to start throwing the entire Total Warfare line-up in a bundle... and my cats would just climb on top of me and start kneading. That seems to be their reaction any time they see me prone.
Suuuuuuure you're sorry!
I'm not recalling it either. Let me know when you find it.
Sure. For a niche that doesn't really rake in money for the company. The golden rule of game design is to produce material for the majority of the audience, not the fringe groups. Sorry.
That's the back door I was thinking of--the one where the BA weapons and Support Weapons had an equivalency chart. I recall having to explain to someone else that the reason they play differently when put on a BA vs being carried by Average Joe is that the BA version adds some more protection, stability, and the benefit of electronic targeting that Average Joe just can't compete with. Then the person I was explaining it to hammered me with so much minutia that I gave up and said the weapons were actually totally different. And that's why the under 5-ton crowd doesn't get any nice things unless they're battle armor.
Good news is, I don't have to really explain anything any more, nor do I have the power to make changes to anything. We all win!
Considering those two become a tank and a fighter jet, the question of "why make them small drones anyway?" comes to mind. Warpath may have once been a mini-Transformer, but I still gave him a much bigger chassis here than I did Bumblebee.
To Infinity and Beyond.
- Herb
Found it! The Muskets were in Touring The Stars - Kerensky's Vision. It says that the "Lodgers" had worked their way back to black powder personal arms and that muskets weren't effective against battle armor and that 40,000 died fighting. I'm not arguing the results but disappointed at not being able to play them.
Battletechnology Magazine was a niche? Still, at the time it was canon, so it counted at one time and shows how much things have changed. If the Abrams were to appear in Shrapnel it'd have a Heavy Rifle Cannon and BAR-6 Armor. That's a lot different from an AC/5 or AC/10 and standard BAR-10 armor.
I really miss that rule. The RPG Support Weapon Conversion Table made so much sense. It also went a long way towards balancing BA and small vehicles as well as the RPG and BG. Right now the differences and disconnects between the AToW and TW give me a headache. It's like having the .50 cal machine gun having different stats based on what it's mounted on, infantry, vehicle, fighter/bomber.
I'm glad you do explain things. :)
Because Warpath's altmode was a Sheridan Tank and Bumblebee's was a VW Bug. The toys may have made them the same size but their altmodes aren't really. Plus if I made them full sized vehicles, they couldn't be carried by Soundwave. Not without the whole size/weight change thing.
>:D Delivery of 1 ACME BattleMech for Wile E. Coyote.
Hmm... CritterTek in Nebula California?
Well, plugging in some rough ammo weight and muzzle velocity of an arquebus-style weapon (About 7 ounces of powder, and 500mps) into my black powder gun formulae, I get 0.1 damage vs BAR 3 Armor. But while a max extreme range of 167 hexes is computed, the real-world max range of these weapons was more like 36 hexes, and recomputing for that essentially treats the weapon as if it had a 110-mps muzzle velocity. I'd add a +2 modifier to attacks by this weapon to cover its notoriously limited accuracy. At an estimated 20-second reload time, and giving our musket infantry the benefit of the doubt that they will fire in alternating volleys, so that half of the troops are loading while the other half are firing, we have to halve the damage value again to 0.05 vs BAR 3. Locking that in, this sets the AP value for a musket at 3, as the damage reduces above that point....but now I have to calc what that is vs BAR 10... Let's see....A damage of 0.05 on tactical scale multiplies by 6 for its BD, so that 0.05 = 0.3 at BAR 3... Giving us a final AToW damage value of 3B/0.3, which REALLY sucks, (but makes sense for a weapon that, according to some contemporary pundits, "took a man's own weight in lead to kill him") I'm going to round this up to 3B/1 (rejoice, O 15th-19th century muskets!). Plugging those values and the 1-shot factor into our handy dandy AToW-to-TW formula (which adjusts any AP factors to BAR 10 standards), and we get.... 0.005 damage per rifle. A 30-man platoon of these things would deliver 0.15 points of damage vs BAR 10 armored units--and that's if ALL were firing at once, which we already established they are not due to terrible reload times. So, consolidating all that stuff, we end up with 0.08 damage, per 30-man musket platoon, against 31st century military armor. You say 40,000 musket troopers died fighting battle armor? Well, I think we can see here that that's gonna happen when it takes a minimum of 100 troopers, all firing in unison, at the same BAR 10 target, to put a 1-point dent in its armor (actually, 0.5 points, but we round up at that point, so...). If you put ALL 40,000 together, aimed them at one target, and they all hit, they'd give you 200 damage points, but I think we'd have to talk about stacking limits at that point.
Regardless of the attack’s nature or the armor’s strength, an attack’s AP and BD may not be reduced below 0.So 0.005 is way too little. A Dart Gun does .1 or 1B/3D. An Arquebus-style weapon is firing a much bigger heavier round, .30-.75 calibers or so, a whole lot further than the max 10 range of a Dart Gun. TM has Dart Guns doing 0.09 damage. They should do more damage than a Dart Gun.
Actually, my latest tweaks have recalced the Abrams' main gun to be effectively equal to a Light AC/2 now, so... congrats on the upgrade(?) The BAR 6 armor remains unchanged, though.
Yyyyyup. Because the firing platform matters. Vehicles and fighters can shoot accurately even on the run, while infantry tends to need pause and find a good cover/position to shoot from. And battle armor is basically a light vehicle.
Until I get tired and cranky anyway.
Right, and those micro-duocon cassettes of Blaster's turned into a tank and a jet that could as easily have been full-sized, and thus more full-fledged.
CritterTek was just a Disney-fied Version of 3025 BattleTech with literally no changes in gameplay at all. You could get there just by playing a regular intro-tech game at a furry convention.
- Herb
Sorry but I think that's very pessimistic of an arquebus-style weapon. Your formula didn't mention a drop in damage along with range. Sure the accuracy may be terrible but that doesn't mean they're less deadly. People behind the lines have been hit and killed by musket fire. There's also this rule in AToW pg 185. So 0.005 is way too little. A Dart Gun does .1 or 1B/3D. An Arquebus-style weapon is firing a much bigger heavier round, .30-.75 calibers or so, a whole lot further than the max 10 range of a Dart Gun. TM has Dart Guns doing 0.09 damage. They should do more damage than a Dart Gun.
At 3B/1 (which is still low) I get 0.0282 rounded up to 0.03. If an entire platoon hits, it'll do 1 point of damage. (0.9 rounded up.) It'll still take a large number of troops to kill a single BA but they'd do it faster with Arquebus weapons than they would with Dart Guns. Also with stacking limits 1 platoon would fire while the other platoon reloads so there's no need to divide the platoons damage in half.
A vaguely remember something about that. I think I'd stick with a Heavy Rifle Cannon. It'd do more damage. Sure it's twice as heavy but it'll do 3 times the damage against BAR-10 Armor. Yes, the LAC/2's would have more ammo but would a tank with BAR-6 armor last that long?
I hope you don't get cranky.
But then he couldn't carry them and if they were full sized they could have a regular AI. I see them as like Blaster's version of the Hi-Scout Drone Carrier's NapFind and PathTrack.
It doesn't have to be. >:D Besides the "Alien Furries" the tech could be a little different. Coil Springs could just be their version of Mechanical Jump Boosters instead of Jump Jets. Other tech could be different, or just alternative tech could be included too. Like AC/15s. There aren't Gauss Rifles in CritterTek are there?
Going the baseball route, there's baseball bats and baseball ammo for AC/s. How much would a mech sized glove weigh? Are they in Noisel?
Hmmm. What's the formulae for small arms to TW these days again? Is it still as written in AToW Companion, or have there been changes? Because my spreadsheet follows those formulae and when I plug in 1B/3D, 1-shot magazine, no splash, no incendiary, and non-support weapon into it, I get a TW value of 0.00525, which is basically where the musket ended up. (And a range of 0, with a non-lethal modifier because the dart gun is not only pathetically low-damage, it's damage type is disabling instead of lethal.)
That being said, the damage drop-off is based on info I found on what a typical musket's range was, contrasted with its muzzle velocity, and adjusted to fit the formula...that, I must point out, was really meant for cannons, and not small arms. (Also, my computations never dropped the damage values to less than 0, so I dunno why you cited that one.
Giving us a final AToW damage value of 3B/0.3, which REALLY sucks,0.3 is less than one.
Again, my formulae seems to net a 0.00525. Hmmm, but if I classify the musket as a Support Weapon, it jumps to 0.0175 because the ammo factor changes. (That doesn't help in TW, though, as platoons receive only a small number of "support weapons," so I'd stick with the 0.00525.)
Against a 31st century Mech? No. And that's the point. So, I'm'a stick with the LAC/2.
I'm medicated to keep my moods flat these days, but it can still happen. And when it does? I just stop working and interacting with people. Which, really, is better for everyone.
Then you have the option to build them as combat vehicles or support vehicles, but yeah, you'd end up with support weapons at best for either one in a combat role. Me, I wouldn't bother. But you do you.
None of that was what CritterTek was about. They just came up with cutesy anthropomorphized animal aesthetics, and zany cartoony explanations for the tech, but they literally just had the same gameplay as Introductory BattleTech. When they talked about the Clans--and they did so in barely a few paragraphs, they classified Clan weaponry as "just taping two things together and calling it better." Doing anything more with CritterTek basically nullifies the point of what they did there.
Check out the Noisiel TtS book. It gives rules for playing sports with BattleMechs. They generally don't need all the safety equipment, though; BattleMech hand actuators tend to be pretty sturdy, since they're meant to carry multi-ton objects and punch through armored cockpits.
- Herb
I'd have to look up my copy of Crittertek again, but I wonder if the Pie Launcher was thier version of the NARC in hindsight now.
You had the Arquebus at 3B/1. The Dart Gun is 1B/3D. And yes the formula is still in AToW Companion. And yes the Dart Gun is pathetically low. That makes me wonder why it does more damage.
Why is the damage adjusted for the range? Rounds can go past their targets when using advanced rules. Damage also doesn't drop, for most weapons until extreme range. I can see a +1 modifier at medium range, +2 at long and +4 at extreme or worse but I don't know why the damage would decrease.
You said. 0.3 is less than one.
You had the Arquebus at 3B/1.
I did the math again and I get.75 x 4.7/50 x.1=0.07 That's with splash damage. Buck and Ball loads were common, as was just loading Buck Shot. And I probably flipped something. I'm not sure. That's still better than .03. I think the damage would be closer to the Gatling Gun at 2B/3 but 3B/1 would work, I guess.
??? Against BAR-10 armor a Heavy Rifle Cannon does 6 points of damage. A LAC/2 does 2 points of damage. 2x3=6. I suppose you could mount 2 LAC/2s for 4 damage but the HRC still does more overall. Unless they're rapid firing then the 2 LAC/2s could do up to 8 damage. I still think I'll stick with the HRC.
I don't mind using support weapons as long as the Combat Equipment Rules are used.
CritterTek also had a baseball feel. I wouldn't want to add Cran weapons though. Just make it different. I don't know why it'd nullify CritterTek. We're not nullifying Transformers.
There was safety equipment? I need to reread it. Gloves would help with catching though.
Baseball gloves are safety equipment, yeah. For humans. Do you think they're there for dexterity? Catching a line drive bare-handed is gonna HURT, man! But BattleMechs do not get hurt the same way. For BattleMechs, your armor is all the safety gear you need.
...
Wasn't this thread supposed to be about Syberian AutoMechs?
- Herb
A metal glove to catch stuff would still be useful for a Mech. Better the chunk of metal takes the impact than the Mech's own fingers. Design it using rules similar to Handheld weapons, where it is just a chunk of armor. If the 'Mitt' takes enough damage to make it useless the Mech can drop it and grab a new one, instead of needing time in a repair bay for its own actuators. There will be a penalty since the Mech has to handle an off-center catch.
As do I. Since my calcs have the 3B/1 arquebus and the 1B/3D dart gun at the same damage value. I can only shrug.
Actually... I didn't drop the damage values due to range. My formulas use muzzle velocities only for range. ..QuoteYeah, but you implied it was less than 0. That said, I ended up putting it at 1 anyway, because less than 1 was ridiculous to me. Remember, BTW, this was based on calcs that were meant to compute black powder guns relative to BAR 3 armor values, then readjusted for a BAR 10 world. ... Hmmm. You know, that might be where I erred. I set its AP value then and there, with its damage vs BAR 3 vehicular armor. But this is an infantry rifle, not a cannon, and its intended targets are generally more lightly armored...so an AP of 2B *IS* more likely. Then, following the "damage magnifying" effect of hitting something under the armor threshold approach, that 0.05 damage vs BAR 3 armor becomes 1.05 vs BAR 2--but, again, we halve it because of the extreme reload time (at an average 20 seconds to complete a reload cycle, we'd be talking 1 shot every other turn OR we'd just have half the platoon fire when the other half loads. This is where I get the 1/2 modifier from.) That gives a final shot value of 0.525. Multiplying THIS by the 6 times that happens when one is shot at tactical scale vs AToW scale, we get 3.15, which rounds down to 3. And we do NOT have to adjust for BAR 10, because that's covered in other rules (which would drop the whole platoon's attack down after they fired). We wind up at a 2B/3 weapon, with a +2 to-hit modifier per attack to cover inaccuracy (I'm too lazy for +1/+2/+3, so I'm averaging it out). Which is what it seems you wanted to see, so... Huh!
Well, as we see above, I end up agreeing with you, just via different means.
Maybe how it was originally written was confusing?
I'm still not understanding why the damage is halved do to rate of fire. No other infantry weapon, including field guns and field artillery has their damage halved when they fire every other turn. 2B/3 is a lot better. They just have a very slow rate of fire and aren't that accurate at range.QuoteHmmm. Guess we'll see what happens when it comes up again in a product, because it seems numerous recent tweaks have left the equivalency tables pretty messed up, and I may just do away with equivalency entirely because it's too much hassle.
They've been tweaked more? Maybe open up equivalency to include other weapons?QuoteNot how I'd do it, but hey, your table, your rules.
I know. I like big vehicles too. But Blaster can't carry them.QuoteThe Syberian AutoMechs aren't nullifying Transformers because we're using BT rules to mimic them, in their image, but with BT rules. If we used BT rules to mimic CritterkTek--which already uses BT rules verbatim--we just get a furry costume change. So, if we were to add anything to CritterTek, while remaining faithful to its image, we'd be replaying the Helm Core recovery and the recovery of Star League tech up to the coming of the Clans. It adds nothing to the rules we don't already have from BattleTech. You can play up the lore, but the conversion rate is 1:1.
I don't know. I think they could be mimicked without being exact. Things are changed with AutoMechs. Not so much that the feel is lost but there are changes.QuoteBaseball gloves are safety equipment, yeah. For humans. Do you think they're there for dexterity? Catching a line drive bare-handed is gonna HURT, man! But BattleMechs do not get hurt the same way. For BattleMechs, your armor is all the safety gear you need.
Yeah, those players from way back were pretty amazing as that's how they played. Bare-handed, with broken fingers. I was thinking about how much bigger a glove is compared to a hand and how it can still catch the ball even when it's past where your fingers are inside of it.
...Quote
Wasn't this thread supposed to be about Syberian AutoMechs?
- Herb
We are talking about a couple of the cassettes. Only they wouldn't be cassettes but non-converting drones but same idea. Big AutoMech carries and deploys several little AutoMechs....In the meantime, here's my first swing (baseball pun!) at a TRO (by way of IE reporting) for Syberian AutoMechs:
Beetle (Wheeled AutoMech)
(snip)
Very way cool! :thumbsup: :rockon::clap: :beer:
The formula in the Companion is still current with your errata for Burst factor, Herb.
There has been an odd change to infantry platoon construction recently. The change only affects a handful of weapons when they are used in a primary vice secondary role. Anything that does over 0.6 damage is limited to 0.6 but gains the Heavy Burst special. Given that all of the affected weapons from Tech Manual get over 0.6 via underbarrel grenade launchers, this is really strange. A couple of the cool Sniper Rifles from Shrapnel #1 get there with huge caliber, but get Heavy Burst anyway too. In both cases, the most affected factions are those with large squad sizes (Taurians, et al.).
A metal glove to catch stuff would still be useful for a Mech. Better the chunk of metal takes the impact than the Mech's own fingers. Design it using rules similar to Handheld weapons, where it is just a chunk of armor. If the 'Mitt' takes enough damage to make it useless the Mech can drop it and grab a new one, instead of needing time in a repair bay for its own actuators. There will be a penalty since the Mech has to handle an off-center catch.
Maybe how it was originally written was confusing?
I'm still not understanding why the damage is halved do to rate of fire. No other infantry weapon, including field guns and field artillery has their damage halved when they fire every other turn. 2B/3 is a lot better. They just have a very slow rate of fire and aren't that accurate at range.
They've been tweaked more? Maybe open up equivalency to include other weapons?
I know. I like big vehicles too. But Blaster can't carry them.
I don't know. I think they could be mimicked without being exact. Things are changed with AutoMechs. Not so much that the feel is lost but there are changes.
Why did you remove the code tags, Herb? It looked fine before... ???
Beetle class mech is pretty cool! It's OmniMech or modular too. Are the AutoMechs unable use melee weapon or is it because they've not been invented yet. Like Dinobots swords and so forth.
Beetle class mech is pretty cool! It's OmniMech or modular too. Are the AutoMechs unable use melee weapon or is it because they've not been invented yet. Like Dinobots swords and so forth.the nebula california material estasblished that they had access to all of the mech melee weapons. it was the one callout from the otherwise "star league tech only" limitation.
As tempting an idea as that sounds, the big issue is that what constitutes a hand actuator can vary wildly with the artist's style. Some Mechs have giant mitts, some have pincer claws, and then there's that "mace-fist" the Awesome has. We also have the claw physical combat weapon, which is a hand actuator that's been tweaked to deal more damage and have a superior grip, or some such. Rather than deal with WYSIWYG-inspired rules on what kind of hands can and cannot catch things and how, I just wrote the catching rules as generically as possible. An artist can just as easily create a hand actuator style to look like a catcher's mitt, and the way I see it, so can any tech with some spare sheet metal and a welding torch.
But, again, that's me. I don't have exclusive claim to what constitutes "fun."
- Herb
When I first posted it like that, I noticed the fluff paragraphs became single lines of text you'd have to scroll to read. Is there a way to tell the code to word wrap?
- Herb
Beetle (Wheeled AutoMech)
Summary
The Beetle class is an example of a “ground scout” model, primarily used for eyes-on recon and message courier duty, with good ground speeds and a five-ton max weapons load. The AutoBoP forces appear to have exclusive access to this chassis type, as all positively identified Beetles have been sighted in their ranks only. In ’Mech form, most Beetles strongly resemble the Lyran-made Commando, with subtle cosmetic differences likely incorporated for ease of passive identification and differentiation. But their wheeled vehicular modes differ across distinct functionality classes that we have designated as “Common,” “Striker,” and “Communicator.” Common-configuration Beetles resemble civilian vehicles in much the same way as did the Star League’s Rotunda. Striker-configured Beetles, by comparison, look more like wheeled missile batteries akin to the modern Light SRM Carrier. Communicator-configured Beetles, meanwhile, more closely resemble rolling satellite uplink scouts like the classic Swift Winds of old.
Oddly enough, the notable Beetles we’ve observed do not always possess skills or temperament consistent with their configurations. Likely a result of their seemingly randomized personality programming, we have witnessed some Common-style Beetles performing reconnaissance, while others act more like foot soldiers, while some Striker-style Beetles have been acting more like pathfinders than fire support units. A quick summary of several selected Beetles is included to illustrate this point.Code: [Select]Type: [b]Beetle[/b]
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 35
[b]Equipment Mass[/b]
Internal Structure: 3.5
Conversion Eqpt: Wheeled 5.5
Engine: 210 9
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9
Jumping MP: 0
Wheeled Cruise MP: 7
Wheeled Flank MP: 11
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 96 6
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 11 12
Center Torso (rear) 7
R/L Torso 8 10
R/L Torso (rear) 5
R/L Arms 6 9
R/L Rear Legs 8 10
[b]Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage[/b]
Wheels RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
[b]Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
[/b][i]Common Configuration A[/i]
ER Large Laser RA 2 5
[i]Common Configuration B[/i]
Medium Laser RA 1 1
Small Laser RA 1 0.5
Streak SRM 2 RT 1 1.5
Ammo (SRM) 50 RT 1 1
Medium Laser LA 1 1
[i]Striker Configuration A[/i]
Primitive RL-15 RA 2 1
Medium Pulse Laser RA 1 2
Primitive RL-15 LA 2 1
Medium Laser LA 1 1
[i]Striker Configuration B[/i]
Primitive RL-10 RA 2 0.5
Medium Laser RA 1 1
Jump Jets RT 2 1
Primitive RL-10 LA 2 0.5
Medium Laser LA 1 1
Jump Jets LT 2 1
[i]
Communicator Configuration A[/i]
Small Laser RA 1 0.5
Communications Eqpt. RT 3 3
Beagle Active Probe LT 2 1.5
[i]
Communicator Configuration B[/i]
Communications Eqpt. RT 3 3
Medium Pulse Laser LA 1 2
[b]Notes:[/b] Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, BattleMech/Wheeled Vehicle Conversion), Ubiquitous (Syberia), Jettison-Capable Weapons (Hands).
[b]Notable Beetles:
Beetle Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
[/b]Beetle Bee Common (A) ReconMech Vet (2/1) Scout Commando/Rotunda
Beetle Charger Common (A) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Commando/Rotunda
Beetle Jumper Common (B) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Commando/Rotunda
Beetle Tailer Common (A) ReconMech Grn (5/4) Scout Commando/Rotunda
Beetle Wheeler Common (*) NinjaMech Vet (3/0) Infantry-AntiMech Commando/Rotunda
Metro-Scamp Common (B) ReconMech Reg (3/2) Scout Commando/Rotunda
Beetle Gear Striker (B) SpecMech Vet (2/1) Special Forces Commando/Light SRM
Beetle Swerver Striker (A) Explorer Reg (7/4) Planet Surveyor Commando/Light SRM
Beach Beetle Comms (A) Explorer AbAvg (6/3) Planet Surveyor Commando/Swift Wind
Sandstormer-One Comms (B) ReconMech Reg (3/2) Scout Commando/Swift Wind
[size=8pt]*This AutoMech mounts a peculiar weapon load: 1 Narc Missile Beacon launcher (RA, w/ 2t Ammo), and 1 Spot Welder (LA).
[/size]
Maybe.
Because of the scale of play and what we mean by a slow rate of fire. Field guns and arty, IIRC, are modern heavy weapons, which are just easier to track per platoon when firing. Their reload rate is basically 10 seconds between shots--a single BT turn, or 2 AToW turns. But muskets take twice as long as that for reloading--20 seconds, meaning 2 turns in BT, or 4 in AToW! If everyone fires together, we'd be ruling that they can only fire once every 3 rounds in BT. But in historical use, commanders got around this by alternating fire in formations, so that half the group could be firing, while the other half was reloading. Representing this with half-damage was the simplest way to enable this without giving everyone a combat tracker just for the musket guys.
Yeah, they have. And the trouble with equivalency is that it's causing a false impression that the weapons are interchangeable, which I am now regretting. A better approach, I'm starting to realize, is to do away with equivalency and just give them secondary damage and range values.
He has plenty of other drones to play with.
Yes, but that's because the transforming aspect IS different to BT rules. LAMs are one thing, and QuadVees another, but Transformers can be damn near anything. Meanwhile, CritterTek was just...BattleTech. IMHO, changing how it plays in any way would be unnecessary and kind of pointless.
As to melee weapons, those are one of the main exceptions to the Star League-tech-only rule (beyond the other exceptions that have now come up throughout this discussion, that is): For whatever reasons, the human Syberians came up with the whole gamut of physical combat weapons we know today, before they all got wiped out. Grimdark, for instance, had Spikes, a Large Vibrosword, and a Tail for physical attack weapons. (The vibrosword and tail were available in alternating modes, however; he could only use the sword in Mech mode, and the tail was available only in Beast mode.)
- Herb
Ah...in that case why not just multiply by the number of troopers firing? 15 troopers fire x Y = Z damage. Next turn they reload and the other 15 troopers fire. Dividing the damage at the start negates the possibility of all 30 troopers firing at one time. Which you might want to happen.
I suppose that could happen. I don't think they're interchangeable. Not in that an older weapon couldn't be used in place of a modern one but the older weapon isn't a newer weapon. I do think opening up the number of weapons would widen the range of weaponry. For example 120mm Howitzer being equivalent to a HVAC/5 while a 120mm Tank Cannon is equivalent to a LAC/5. But I suppose just listing BT ranges and damages would help prevent any confusion. Would the -3 damage that Rifle Cannons have against BAR-8+ Armors work?
I was wondering about Grimdark. Since the Syberians created extra legs and tails, would they have made jaws or pincers? Also could different sized cockpits be used to make smarter or less smart Drones without resorting to remote control drones? If yes to both, then a Grimdark like AutoMech could bite and still breath fire. Otherwise, it's cosmetics for the jaws.
Then we're back to tracking off turns, but sure. I can't honestly care enough about cannon fodder this bad to deal with them any deeper than we've already come.
As you've already managed to convince me to do away with equivalency, I'd have to go back to the drawing board before I can answer any of that. Sorry.
Nah. Jaws won't count as limbs. And the rules were very specific on the cockpit types used. Small cockpits are out. Command consoles are iffy only because they are an add-on. So Grimdark can't actually bite, no.
-Herb
Well, we'd have to track turns anyway so...
Ah. I was thinking 'expendable but clumsy catching surface' rather than modifying the hand actuator directly. So you'd have the Mechs using a piece of metal to catch stuff when preventing damage to the Mech is a priority (and accepting the 'piloting' penalty), and using their hands to catch when preventing damage to the item being tossed is a priority (i.e. when Daniel (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Daniel_Witwicky_(G1)) had to be caught safely).
I was guessing any handed Mech could use its hands to catch (with any piloting penalties appropriate for that type of hand), but sometimes the Mech would prefer not to get damaged in the process so it uses an expendable metal surface, or something fancy like a cesta from jai alai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jai_alai) to do the catching instead.
Not directly, my idea would be to take the fluff out of the code, leave the stats in the code. Something like this:
My approach would have eliminated that need entirely, but whatevs.
I suppose, or even just a heavy layer of vulcanized rubber that slots over the existing hand, with maybe a powerful electromagnet, assuming the ball is ferrous enough. Makes it a lot easier to play catch, though some might complain that it's cheating. I guess I just occasionally hit a point where my mind says, "Do we really need to invent another thing with limited utility?"
...And then someone reminds me that I wrote the 1945 XTR....
I suppose that could happen. I don't think they're interchangeable. Not in that an older weapon couldn't be used in place of a modern one but the older weapon isn't a newer weapon. I do think opening up the number of weapons would widen the range of weaponry. For example 120mm Howitzer being equivalent to a HVAC/5 while a 120mm Tank Cannon is equivalent to a LAC/5. But I suppose just listing BT ranges and damages would help prevent any confusion. Would the -3 damage that Rifle Cannons have against BAR-8+ Armors work?
Type: Streaker
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 55
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 5.5
Conversion Eqpt: Wheeled 8.5
Engine: 275 15.5
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Wheeled Cruise MP: 6
Wheeled Flank MP: 9
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 144 9
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 18 18
Center Torso (rear) 7
R/L Torso 13 18
R/L Torso (rear) 6
R/L Arms 9 14
R/L Rear Legs 13 17
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Wheels RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Common Configuration A
ER PPC RA 2 7
LRM 5 RT 1 2
Ammo (LRM) 24 RT 1 1
CASE RT 1 0.5
Common Configuration B
Snub-Nose PPC RA 2 6
Streak SRM-2 RT 1 1.5
Ammo (Streak) 50 RT 1 1
CASE RT 1 0.5
Streak SRM-2 LT 1 1.5
Scrambler Configuration A
ER Large Laser RA 2 5
Guardian ECM RT 2 1.5
Lift Hoist LA 3 3
TAG HD 1 1
Scrambler Configuration B
ER Large Laser RA 2 5
Flamer RT 1 0.5
Flamer LT 1 0.5
CASE LT 1 0.5
Narc Missile Beacon LA 2 3
Ammo (Narc) 6 LA 1 1
Maintainer Configuration
Fluid Gun RA 2 2
Ammo (Fluid) 20 RA 1 1
SRM-6 RT 2 3
Ammo (SRM) 15 RT 1 1
CASE RT 1 0.5
Fluid Gun LA 2 2
Ammo (Fluid) 20 LA 1 1
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, BattleMech/Wheeled Vehicle Conversion). Battle Fists, Rugged (1), Ubiquitous (Syberia), Jettison-Capable Weapon (Right Hand)
Credit: Giovanni Blasini, for base chassis design
Notable Streakers:
Streaker Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Jazzy Scrambler (A) CommandMech Vet (2/1) Scout, Officer Griffin/Rotunda
Blue Streaker Common (B) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Griffin/Rotunda
Smoke Streaker Common (A) ReconMech Reg (3/2) Scout Griffin/Rotunda
Prowler Common (B) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Griffin/Rotunda
Sunny Streak Scrambler (B) ReconMech Grn (5/4) Scout Griffin/Rotunda
Street Streaker-P Common (A) NinjaMech Vet (3/0) Infantry-AntiMech Griffin/Rotunda
Metro-Scamp Scrambler (B) ReconMech Reg (3/2) Scout Griffin/Rotunda
Streak-Wiper Maintainer DoctorMech Reg (5/4) Technican-’Mech Griffin/Rotunda
Keep on making Automechs.
Would love to see a Perceptor because we all know that was our favorite one.
Okay, I worked out a fix. Equivalency is gone. In its place will be formulae that reduce the weapon's damage and effective range based on the target's BAR over 6. No more debating which gun is "like" this other gun. It's kinda neat if I do say so myself; the 88mm cannon drops to less than half its damage, with its effective long range falling to about a third of its 1945 reach. The modern 120mm cannon drops to a 5-pt weapon with a 49-hex long range against a modern BattleMech, while Yamato's main guns may deal 20pt hits at ranges comparable to the Clan ER Large Laser. Might add Crit roll modifiers to the effect as well, to reflect a loss of penetration, but the approach I'd use wouldn't hurt WWII guns nearly as much as it would Black Powder weapons.
Either way, back to Syberians!
Here's the Streaker class!
What's the fix? If the 8.8cm does less than half damage, how much damage do the smaller cannons do? 5 damage doesn't seem like a lot for a 120mm cannon but the range is great. I don't really expect Black Powder Weapons to do much damage, unless they're really big weapons. Considering how armor works though, I would think they'd do something. Not a lot but something. More than guys with clubs but less than those with WWI weapons.
Cassettes are limited to 2 tons, right?
I hope I did this right. It's been a while since I made a small support vehicle.
<snip>
I forget, are they supposed to have Remote Operating Systems and Sensors too? I thought, no, but I don't remember. If yes, then it's back to the scribble pad.
The fix is: Reduce damage by 20% and range by 25% for each level of BAR above 6. The reductions are applied to the new values for each level, so BAR 7 = 80% damage and 75% range of values vs BAR 6; vs BAR 8 = 80% damage and 75% range vs BAR 7 values; vs BAR 9 = 80% damage and 75% range vs BAR 8; and vs BAR 10 = 80% damage and 75% range vs BAR 9. Black Powder guns begin these reductions for each BAR above 3, and so they suffer through 7 layers of similar reductions by the time they hit BAR 10. Use normal rounding for all values, to minimum values of 0. (0-damage weapons at BAR 10 are possible, but not very likely.)
Damage from physical attacks (such as ramming), and nuclear weapons are not reduced by BAR. Artillery and Minimum ranges, when given, are not affected by BAR. (It is therefore possible to see weapons reduced in effective range to a point where their Minimum range modifiers overlap across multiple range brackets.)
Some fun examples:
64-pound Black Powder Cannon (vs BAR 3): 16 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 5/22/43/65/173
64-pound Black Powder Cannon (vs BAR 10): 3 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 5/3/6/9/23
--
16-inch Naval Gun (vs. BAR 5-6): 40A damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 5/25/50/75/200
16-inch Naval Gun (vs. BAR 10): 16A damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 5/8/16/24/63
--
125mm Smoothbore Tank Cannon (vs. BAR 5-6): 12 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 11/56/113/168/280
125mm Smoothbore Tank Cannon (vs. BAR 10): 5 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 11/18/36/53/89
--
30mm Fighter Cannon (vs. BAR 5-6): 3 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 0/23/45/68/180
30mm Fighter Cannon (vs. BAR 10): 1 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 0/7/14/22/57
--
30mm Gatling Fighter Cannon (vs. BAR 5-6): 11 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 0/35/71/105/175
30mm Gatling Fighter Cannon (vs. BAR 10): 5 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 0/11/22/33/55
--
.50 cal (U.S. [1945]) Machine Gun (vs. BAR 5-6): 2 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 0/15/29/44/145
.50 cal (U.S. [1945]) Machine Gun (vs. BAR 10): 1 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 0/5/9/14/46
--
7.62mm (European) Machine Gun (vs. BAR 5-6): 1 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 0/14/28/40/135
7.62mm (European) Machine Gun (vs. BAR 10): 0 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 0/4/9/13/43
If you're building them as robotic battle armor, yeah, but you can build the non-BA cassettes bigger.
A quick review of your figures tells me you got it pretty much spot-on. Below 10-tons, robotics doesn't add any extra weight to a vehicle's control systems, and the Syberian version of AI is actually smaller in that they can fit their version inside a standard 3-ton 'Mech cockpit, so I think your control systems are fine. I was briefly worried you might have exceeded the vehicle's equipment slot allowance, but you were even ok there. Nice job!
- Herb
--
16-inch Naval Gun (vs. BAR 5-6): 40A damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 5/25/50/75/200
16-inch Naval Gun (vs. BAR 10): 16A damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 5/8/16/24/63
--
125mm Smoothbore Tank Cannon (vs. BAR 5-6): 12 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 11/56/113/168/280
125mm Smoothbore Tank Cannon (vs. BAR 10): 5 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 11/18/36/53/89
--
30mm Fighter Cannon (vs. BAR 5-6): 3 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 0/23/45/68/180
30mm Fighter Cannon (vs. BAR 10): 1 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 0/7/14/22/57
--
30mm Gatling Fighter Cannon (vs. BAR 5-6): 11 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 0/35/71/105/175
30mm Gatling Fighter Cannon (vs. BAR 10): 5 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 0/11/22/33/55
--
.50 cal (U.S. [1945]) Machine Gun (vs. BAR 5-6): 2 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 0/15/29/44/145
.50 cal (U.S. [1945]) Machine Gun (vs. BAR 10): 1 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 0/5/9/14/46
--
7.62mm (European) Machine Gun (vs. BAR 5-6): 1 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 0/14/28/40/135
7.62mm (European) Machine Gun (vs. BAR 10): 0 damage; Ranges (Min/Sht/Med/Lng/Ext): 0/4/9/13/43
I'm not a fan of the range reduction for the heavier guns. A ton of HE is a ton of HE, and it goes as far as it does.
Interesting how against BAR 10, it ends up being pretty comparable to a Sniper artillery piece, at least in terms of damage. Are those ranges mapsheets, or hexes? I ask because, against BAR 5-6, 200 hexes would work out to 6 kilometers, which seems awfully short for a 16-inch naval gun. By way of comparison, a Sniper has a 9 km range, while the 16"/45 Mark 1/5/8 cannons on the Colorado class had a 21 km effective firing range.
Those make for interesting comparisons with the standard machine guns.
Sounds good! :thumbsup: So if I've got this right, the 75mm would do 7 points of damage against BAR6, 6 against BAR7, 5 against BAR8, 4 against BAR9 and 3 against BAR10? And the 37mm would do 4 against BAR6, 3 against BAR7, 2 against BAR8, 2 against BAR9, and 1 against BAR10?
Yay! Thanks. :) I thought I was going to go over the slot allowance too but TM said 5 slots which fit just right. :) I don't know if Grand Slam is amphibious or not but he was way underweight so I added that chassis mod too. It's still a little underweight but there's not much I can do but add more ammo. Everything else is maxed out. :)
My point is that works for the smaller guns. Once you start lobbing volkswagons full of cordite around, the range and damage really don't change...
My point is that works for the smaller guns. Once you start lobbing volkswagons full of cordite around, the range and damage really don't change...
Your rounding may be slightly off. A 7 vs BAR 6 would become a 6 v. BAR 7; 4 v. BAR 8-9; and 3 v. BAR 10; and a 4 vs BAR 6, would drop to 3 for BARs 7-8, and 2 vs BARs 9-10. But as I think about it, I see where the numbers can slip, as rounding for each step along the way, versus only rounding at the final step, can produce different results.
As I found in many of my old 1945 conversions, sometimes, you'll just *be* underweight no matter what you do (unless you're willing to REALLY go off-plan). In such cases, I just say "cargo!" and leave it at that...even if there's no slot space for it. The spare weight simply becomes an amount of external mass allowance the unit can take without losing any performance whatsoever. (In the case of BA, for instance, falling short just lets the suit carry even bigger guns in its hands before noticing any speed loss.)
- Herb
Funniest part is it’s got a chrome Autobot logo on the hood and a big red Autobot logo on the roof. It is, in fact, Bumblebee.
Meanwhile, my wife has dubbed my ‘82 AMC Concord wagon “Groundwave”.
So the damage drops 20% for every BAR above 5? And some damage might be the same do to rounding?
Here's Randancer. Hope I did it right...
<snip>
For 20th/early 21st century guns, it's a drop when you pass BAR 6 (BAR 5-6 are the same now, as far as the damage and ranges go). And it's 20% from the previous drop, rather than 20% x the difference in BARs. The results are non-linear, and more like a curve toward zero. When you get to the lower numbers, yeah, you'll start seeing the same damage between levels as rounding takes place.
Looks like you built it mostly right, but the chassis seems to be twice as heavy as my calcs say it should be. Is there a chassis mod I'm not seeing? VSTOL mod, perhaps?
- Herb
Lots of math but I think I've got it. :) Sounds good. :thumbsup:
VSTOL it was. I forgot to list that. xp
Wow, I didn't think there were many those around. Must be challenging to keep her running.
Cool! I hope you keep Groundwave running. Concords are great cars. I miss my '83 4 door sedan "George". :'(
So, looks like Rotunda is still my best bet for vehicle form, right?
Hey, that's what happens when you kill off equivalency. I personally hate excess math, especially when we jump from basic add/subtract/multiply to exponents, and it was for that reason that it took until IO before the custom-yield nukes came into play (as their formulae used exponents a-plenty). The new formulae I posted could be simplified using them, however, like this:
Damage Reductions: [Original Damage Value] x [0.8^X]
Range Reductions: [Original Range Value] x [0.75^X]
*In both formulae, X = The number of Levels your damage exceeds its default BAR level (6 for 20th-21st century weapons; 3 for black powder).
*And, of course, no change to Minimum and Indirect Artillery range. Round all final values normally.
*Do not use these formulae for BAR levels below the Default.
That's what I suspected. Then, yeah, looks correct.
- Herb
Not too bad, actually. They made this basic car in one form or another from 1971 to 1987, and variations on this engine from 1964 through 2006.
One of the cars I learned to drive on was my parents' '81 sedan.
So, looks like Rotunda is still my best bet for vehicle form, right?
That might be easier if I knew what ^ was. That's beyond me.
^ is internet shorthand for "to the power of"... hope that helps! :thumbsup:
Hey, that's what happens when you kill off equivalency. I personally hate excess math, especially when we jump from basic add/subtract/multiply to exponents, and it was for that reason that it took until IO before the custom-yield nukes came into play (as their formulae used exponents a-plenty). The new formulae I posted could be simplified using them, however, like this:
- Herb
Can you use any remaining influence to edit a couple of the Strategic Operations formulas for Jumpship & Warship construction (from 4th edition, page 146, the Advanced Aerospace Unit Cost Tables)?
Basically these two formulas:
JumpShip Support Systems 10,000,000 x (Unit Tonnage ÷ 10,000)
WarShip Support Systems 20,000,000 x (50 + Unit Tonnage ÷ 10,000)
Could easily be simplified to:
JumpShip Support Systems: 1,000 x Unit Tonnage
WarShip Support Systems: 1,000,000,000 + 2,000 x Unit Tonnage
I think a billion+ tons is WAY over the mass any WarShip can be constructed, there. (But, if you're seriously proposing math corrections like that, might I recommend putting that in the errata discussion thread?)
- Herb
Sorry, those are the cost factors.
For example, this:
1,000,000,000 + 2,000 x Unit Tonnage
Means that for a 100 kton unit the total cost for this 'component' will be 1,200,000,000 (before the Warship Cost multiplier)
^ is internet shorthand for "to the power of"... hope that helps! :thumbsup:
More than just internet shorthand, I'd say; I'm pretty sure Excel and other programs recognizes it that way too.
*tests that, just to be sure*
Yup. It still is.
- Herb
Ratchet and Ironhide are up!
This leaves me with Hound currently on my workbench. I should do 1 more to keep them in paired releases.
You know more about excel than I do. Which isn't hard since I don't know very much and my book for excel is about 600 miles away. :'(
Did we have a list of someone the the other G1 formers and alt-modes? I couldn't find it in all the messages. Looking for the weirder minicons like Cosmos for example.
Ask, and ye shall be updated! (Cosmos was a Daimyo.)
- Herb
Thrush or Sholagar?
Much obliged. Also, what about Warpath/Guzzle? I'm eyeing the Scorpion light tank and Commando for them.
So would Reflector be a regular light mech with two Drones on it? He was a recon unit (aka he was camera)
I guess I'm thinking of a more modest Warpath ;D
What do think of the Legionnaire or Shockwave for Warpath?
Trying to mod a Shockwave to represent the cannon will be a interesting try for sure. I was just going off your comment about how there wasn't a mech chassis that looked appropriately beefy. Or maybe I'm misread that about Warpath. It might have just been my conception about Warpath being a tankette because of the figure's minicon status that stuck with me.
Also, for Whirl, what do you think about the Hyena/Balac combo?
since he's been light tanks in most of his appearances, why not use a Vedette as the vehicle mode and go for a tonnage of 45-55 tons? basically split the difference as a BT medium tank/mech.
since he's been light tanks in most of his appearances, why not use a Vedette as the vehicle mode and go for a tonnage of 45-55 tons? basically split the difference as a BT medium tank/mech.
That was my original plan, but making him a larger tank works for me too. Not like he has a ton of detail to begin with.
Hmm. Okay, how do we feel about a Quasimodo/Marsden II, or Rook/Goblin? (The latter pair has the advantage of having a round torso that translates to a rounded turret.) Both would fall into medium-weight categories.
The main reason I'd steer away from Commandos is just because there's 10 "Beetles" using that one. ;)
- Herb
Funny, I was eyeing the Rook for Cosmos actually. ;D the Quasimodo i considered, as well as the Rook. I felt the Rook was a bit too rounded at first, but then I forgot I'd be adding the turret detailing anyways.
I have attached the tank candidates, Scorpion, Vedette, Merkeva, Rommel Howitzer and the Von Luckner, mainly for the turret replacement option on the lighter chassis. I had also considered the Hunter base and the Chevalier turret. The Manticore and Vedette have a secondary hull that kind of takes away from the pure tank aesthetic to me.
I also thought about the Merkeva, but would have to replace the turret, or modify it.
Sweet! Did you have any ideas who you'll do next?
Book?
- Herb
Yeah. That's kind of what I'd figured, but many later versions and toys were much bigger in scale (hell, in TF Animated, he was freaking HUGE! and his WfC game version was easily equal to Prime in terms of size). Also, tankettes were nigh extinct even in the 1980s, so if he planned to hide that way... According to the TF Wiki, his original toy represented an M551A1 Sheridan, which weighed... Hah! Only 15.5 tons! I'm still going with a heavy tank. I mean, it's Warpath!
Now that you mention it... Hmmm, I have a Cuirass/Balac transformer for Springer, but it would hardly be the first time two different Mechs had the same alt mode. I'll just need to name a new model for Whirl. The Hyena/Balac is a good combo for him, yeah.
- Herb
Sorry, I'm getting the Marsden mixed up with the Merkava. Both I think either would work fine for Warpath, with some modding of course. So what's in the picture is the Marsden, but I'd have to get Merkava first to verify.
It's a book on how to use XL.
Would the MGM-51 Shillelagh missile be considered Precision Ammo?
How difficult would be for autobop or DemoCon to spot for said artillery? I am misremembering, but were drones pain to use as spotters?
I was being a bit silly. Virtually all of my Excel skills are self-taught nowadays.
*looks over his 20th/21st century tables* I gave the missile a +2 to-hit and an artillery range of 7.5km for some reason. The to-hit modifier was probably an error on my part, and should have been a -1 to reflect its guidance, which would have made it a "Medium Guided Rocket" in my tables. Of course, that weapon system didn't really last long and was rarely fired in anger, it seems. That's neither here nor there, though, since the Syberian Warp Tanker will be using a good ol' Autocannon of some kind.
- Herb
There's tables for missiles and rockets? :o What kind of damage does a medium guided rocket do? I guess the TOW Missile would be slightly better than the Shillelagh since it is the Shillelagh's replacement?
That's cool but it would open the door to other ammo types. If a tank cannon can fire a missile, why not an autocannon? Precision Ammo is a modified Gyro Jet Round. That's kind of like a guided rocket, right?
It was the same. What made the TOW more attractive was it was less cumbersome than the idea behind the Shillelagh.
Not if the folks on Syberia never went down that path.
- Herb
If trying to build Warpath close to the Sheridan it'd work.1 ton for standard ammo and 1 ton for Precision.
Does that mean they don't have alternative ammo loads for autocannons or only some alternative ammos?
Looking at how the Sheridan's cannon translates... He'd get an UAC/5 or an LB-10X.
What cut-off date did we come up with for their best tech? 3060? Looks like we got everything but the Precision Ammo.
- Herb
So if I've go the damage right, A cannon round from a 152mm would do 15 points of damage to BAR 6, 12 against BAR 7, 10 against BAR 8, 8 against BAR 9, and 6 against BAR 10. That is pretty close to an AC/5. I guess it'd work Shillelagh too if we think about it being like an ancient Thunderbolt-15. I think I'd like my SRM Infantry armed with TOW Missiles. >:D
20 regular rounds, and 10 Precision Rounds would be close to matching the ammo load of the Sheridan. I suppose AP rounds could be used instead of Precision though.
Type: Seeker
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 50
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 5
Conversion Eqpt: Aero 7.5
Engine: 250 12.5
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 8
Safe Thrust: 8
Max Thrust: 12
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Fuel: 80 0
Structural Integrity: 16 0
Armor Factor: 112 7
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 16 12
Center Torso (rear) 7
R/L Torso 12 10
R/L Torso (rear) 5
R/L Arms 8 12
R/L Rear Legs 12 15
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Avionics RT/LT/HD 3 0
Landing Gear RT/CT/LT 3 0
Improved Jump Jets RL/RT/LT/LL 8 4
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Strafer A
Medium Pulse Laser RA 1 2
ER Medium Laser RA 1 1
Fuel (80) RT 1 1
Double Heat Sink LT 3 1
Medium Pulse Laser LA 1 2
ER Medium Laser LA 1 1
Strafer B
2 ER Medium Lasers RA 2 2
Double Heat Sink RT 3 1
Fuel (80) RT 1 1
TAG LT 1 1
Double Heat Sink LT 3 1
2 ER Medium Lasers LA 2 2
Interceptor A
Light PPC RA 2 3
Primitive Rocket Launcher-15 RT 2 1
Primitive Rocket Launcher-15 LT 2 1
Light PPC LA 2 3
Interceptor B
ER Medium Laser RA 1 1
LRM 5 RT 1 2
ER Small Laser CT 1 0.5
Ammo (LRM) 24 LT 1 1
CASE LT 1 0.5
LRM 5 LT 1 2
ER Medium Laser LA 1 1
Ambusher A
SRM 4 RA 1 2
Guardian ECM RT 2 1.5
CASE LT 1 0.5
SRM 4 LA 2 2
Machine Gun LA 1 0.5
Ammo (MG) 100 LA 1 0.5
Ammo (Streak) 25 LA 1 1
Ambusher B
ER Medium Laser RA 1 1
LRM-10 RT 2 5
Ammo (LRM) 12 LT 1 1
ER Medium Laser LA 1 1
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, BattleMech/Fighter Conversion), Ubiquitous (Syberia)
Notable Seekers:
Seeker Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Star Seeker Strafer (B) CommandMech Elt (0/0) Scout, Officer Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Sky Seeker Ambusher (A) SpecMech Vet (2/1) Special Forces Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Thunder Seeker Ambusher (B) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Acid Seeker Interceptor (B) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Ion Seeker Interceptor (A) SpecMech Vet (2/1) Special Forces Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Nova Seeker Strafer (A) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Bit Seeker Strafer (A) Analyzer Vet (3/2) Analysis Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Heat Seeker Interceptor (B*) CraftsMech Vet (5/1) Engineer Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Cell Seeker Ambusher (B) ArtilleryMech Reg (5/4) Infantry Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Sun Seeker Strafer (B**) SpecMech Reg (4/3) Special Forces Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Death Seeker Ambusher (A) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Ram Seeker Ambusher (A) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Thrust Seeker Ambusher (B) ReconMech Vet (2/1) Scout Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Blast Seeker Ambusher (B) ReconMech Reg (3/2) Scout Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Black Seeker Strafer (B) NinjaMech Vet (1/0) Infantry-AntiMech Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Red Seeker Interceptor (A) GruntMech Reg (5/4) Minimal Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Sand Seeker Ambusher (A) ReconMech Reg (3/2) Scout Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Stream Seeker Ambusher (A) ReconMech Vet (2/1) Scout Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
*This AutoMech swaps its ER Small Laser for a Flamer
**This AutoMech swaps both extra double heat sinks for 2 more ER Medium Lasers
Interesting. I had Shockwave going from a Cyclops to a Marksman M1 (because I figured the bulkier kibble on the Cyclops would make for a bulkier tank). What your approach here?
- Herb
Ahh, I already had a Highlander done up as Shockwave, from before, and didn't realize you listed the alt as a Marksman M1. That does look more imposing. Hmm, reworking the Cyclops head would be interesting as well.
Ahh, I already had a Highlander done up as Shockwave, from before, and didn't realize you listed the alt as a Marksman M1. That does look more imposing. Hmm, reworking the Cyclops head would be interesting as well.
That sounds like a job for a 3D printer... 8)
Holy awesome!!!
I would have used the Highlander IIC head, if it wasn't smaller than the resculpt as well. It has the proper hex shape, just not the size.
and if you mirror flip the transformer's placement of the weapons, you can even leave the highlander's gun-arm intact.
The arm swap was kinda tricky, but all I needed was a right hand fist. I do have another Highlander that was painted in a similar vein, in the stock config.
Type: Sounder
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 60
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 6
Conversion Eqpt: Wheeled 9
Engine: 240 11.5
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Wheeled Cruise MP: 5
Wheeled Flank MP: 8
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 144 9
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 20 15
Center Torso (rear) 10
R/L Torso 14 14
R/L Torso (rear) 8
R/L Arms 10 15
R/L Rear Legs 14 18
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Wheels RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Common Configuration A
ER Large Laser RA 2 5
SRM 6 RT 1 2
Ammo (SRM) 15 RT 2 3
Cargo (3 tons) RT 3 3
CASE RT 1 0.5
Guardian ECM Suite LT 2 1.5
Beagle Active Probe LT 2 1.5
Cargo (3 tons) LT 3 3
Common Configuration B
ER PPC RA 3 7
ER Small Laser RA 1 0.5
Guardian ECM Suite RT 2 1.5
Cargo (4 tons) RT 5 4.5
Beagle Active Probe LT 2 1.5
Cargo (4 tons) LT 5 4.5
Scientist Configuration
Autocannon/5 RA 4 8
Ammo (AC/5) 20 RA 1 1
Ammo (Sensors) 30 RT 1 0.5
CASE RT 1 0.5
Large Pulse Laser LT 2 7
Remote Sensor Dispenser LT 1 0.5
Beagle Active Probe LT 2 1.5
Light TAG HD 1 0.5
Gunner Configuration
LB 10-X AC RA 6 11
Ammo (LB-X) 20 RA 2 2
Ammo (Narc) 12 RT 2 2
CASE RT 1 0.5
Narc Missile Beacon LA 2 3
TAG HD 1 1
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, BattleMech/Wheeled Vehicle Conversion). Rugged (1), Ubiquitous (Syberia), Jettison-Capable Weapon (Right Hand)
Notable Sounders:
Sounder Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Com Blaster Common (B) CommandMech Vet (2/1) Comms, Officer Thunderbolt*/Packrat
Com ’Ceptor Scientist Analyst Elt (2/1) Scientist Thunderbolt*/Packrat
Wave Sounder Common (A) CommandMech Elt (1/0) Comms, Officer Thunderbolt*/Packrat
Blast Sounder Common (A) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Thunderbolt*/Packrat
Cast Sounder Common (B) ReconMech Grn (5/4) Scout Thunderbolt*/Packrat
Brute Swindler Gunner ArtilleryMech Vet (5/3) Infantry, Merchant Thunderbolt*/Packrat
*”Primitive”/RetroTech format
You'll probably be disappointed to learn that my work set the Shillelagh's damage around 7 points, but it picked up an artillery range the standard rounds didn't have. This gave it a final damage drop to 3, which still isn't too shabby.
There ya go.
- Herb
Another Syberian TRO entry... (BTW: Nothing quite like discovering only years after the fact that you screwed up the math in a very performance-defeating way. The Seekers we published were slower than they actually should have been.)
Seeker (Aerofighter AutoMech)
Another AutoMech briefing filled out!
Sounder (Wheeled AutoMech)
Ahh, I already had a Highlander done up as Shockwave, from before, and didn't realize you listed the alt as a Marksman M1. That does look more imposing. Hmm, reworking the Cyclops head would be interesting as well.
Is Sounder's Cargo capacity where the Drone-Battle Armor bots are being deployed from?
Type: Grunt Drone T1/T2
Technology Base: AutoMech (Battlesuit)
Mass: 2,000 kg
Swarm/Leg Attack/Mechanized/AP: No/No/Yes/No
AToW BAR Values: 10/9/9/8; E/I/C: 8/0/0 (T1a, T2a/b); E/I/C: 0/0/0 (T1b)
Equipment Slots Mass (kg)
Internal Structure: Robotic 700
Motive System:
Ground MP: 2 160
Jump MP: 1 125
Manipulators:
Right Arm: Modular Equipment Adaptor 2 0
Left Arm: Modular Equipment Adaptor 2 0
Armor: Advanced Standard 5 560
Armor Value: 14 + 1 (CPUs)
Weapons and Ammo Location Slots Mass (kg)
T1a Configuration
Small Laser (30) R. Arm 1 200
Heavy Vibro-Claws R. Hand 60
ECM Suite Body 1 100
Light TAG L. Arm 1 35
Heavy VibroClaws L. Hand 60
T1b Configuration
Small Laser (30) R. Arm 1 200
Industrial Drill R. Hand 30
ECM Suite Body 1 100
Micro Grenade Launcher (40) L. Arm 1 75
Industrial Drill L. Hand 30
T2a Configuration
Searchlight R. Arm 1 5
Vibro-Claws R. Hand 50
Improved Sensors Body 1 65
Medium Recoilless Rifle (20) L. Arm 2 250
Vibro-Claws L. Hand 50
T2b Configuration
Shotgun Microphone R. Arm 1 5
Vibro-Claws R. Hand 50
ECM Suite Body 1 100
Support PPC (15) L. Arm 2 250
Vibro-Claws L. Hand 50
Notes: Clan chassis weight used to reflect additional robotic systems. “Trooper” point replaced by “CPUs” to represent the Syberian robotics systems. Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, Drone Battle Armor Conversion), Code-Bonded (Unit may only operate within 100 km of its designated command unit)
Notable Grunt Drones:
Grunt Drone Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Red Rumbler Drone T1a ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Golem BA/None
Blue Frenzy Drone T1b SpecMech Vet (2/1) Special Forces Golem BA/None
Black Winder Drone T2a Analysis Vet (3/2) Intelligence Hauberk BA/None
Blue Winder Drone T2b Communicator Vet (3/1) Communications Hauberk BA/None
Meanwhile, it’s not Syberian, but I did envision it as being in the California Nebula: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/aerospace/daedalus-class-science-frigate-california-nebula/
Would love to see more BattleTrek
Type: Grimdark
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 100
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: Industrial 20
Conversion Eqpt: Bestial 5
Engine: 200 8.5
Walking MP: 2
Running MP: 3
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor (Heavy Ind.): 298 19
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 31 40
Center Torso (rear) 21
R/L Torso 21 26
R/L Torso (rear) 16
R/L Arms 17 30
R/L Legs 21 42
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Conversion Equipment RT/LT 2 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Tyrant Configuration
Spikes RA 1 0.5
Spikes RT 1 0.5
Autocannon/10 RT 7 12
Ammo (AC/10) 10 RT 2 2
CASE RT 1 0.5
Tail CT(R) 2 6
Spikes LT 1 0.5
Autocannon/10 LT 7 12
Spikes LA 1 0.5
Large Vibroblade LA 4 7
Flamer HD 1 1
Apatos Configuration
Spikes RA 1 0.5
Autocannon/20 RT 10 14
Spikes RL 1 0.5
Tail CT(R) 2 6
LRM-20 LT 5 10
Ammo (AC/20) 10 LT 2 2
Ammo (LRM-20) 12 LT 2 2
CASE LT 1 0.5
Spikes LL 1 0.5
Spikes LA 1 0.5
Retractable Blade LA 5 5
Flamer HD 1 1
Notes: Features Advanced Fire Control and the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, Biped/Quad ’Mech Conversion), Battle Fists, Distracting, Rugged (2), Cooling System Flaws, Non-Standard Parts
Notable Grimdarks:
Grimdark Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Grimdark Tyrant CommandMech Elt (1/0) Infantry, Officer Shiro/White Flame
Grim-Slugger Apatos ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Shiro/Balius
Type: Grimshadow
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 80
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: Industrial 16
Conversion Eqpt: Bestial 4
Engine: 240 11.5
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor (Heavy Ind.): 247 15.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 25 34
Center Torso (rear) 16
R/L Torso 17 22
R/L Torso (rear) 12
R/L Arms 13 26
R/L Legs 17 34
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Conversion Equipment RT/LT 2 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Triceros Configuration
Spikes RA 1 0.5
Binary Laser Cannon RA 4 9
Spikes RT 1 0.5
Medium Pulse Laser RT 1 2
Tail CT(R) 2 6
Spikes LT 1 0.5
Medium Pulse Laser LT 1 2
Spikes LA 1 0.5
Medium Vibroblade LA 2 5
Flamer HD 1 1
Stegos Configuration
Spikes RA 1 0.5
Medium Vibroblade LA 2 5
2 Streak SRM-4s RT 2 6
Spikes RL 1 0.5
Tail CT(R) 2 6
2 Streak SRM-4s LT 2 6
Ammo (Streak SRM-4) 25 LT 1 1
Spikes LL 1 0.5
Spikes LA 1 0.5
Flamer HD 1 1
Notes: Features Advanced Fire Control and the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, Biped/Quad ’Mech Conversion), Battle Fists, Cowl, Distracting, Rugged (2), Cooling System Flaws, Non-Standard Parts
Notable Grimshadows:
Grimshadow Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Grim-Slagger Triceros ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Ha Otoko/Treburana
Grim-Snarler Stegos ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Hatamoto-Suna/Treburana
Ram Plate from Turning Points: Hanseatic Crusade would work well the the Grimdark class 'Mechs. Such as mechs like Slag.
(https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/4/49/SlagWarofDinos.jpg)
Just got an order in. Kit bashing ahead!
Didn't turn out too bad.
Type: Swooper
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 50
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 5
Conversion Eqpt: Aero 7.5
Engine: 200 8.5
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4
Safe Thrust: 4
Max Thrust: 6
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Fuel: 80 0
Structural Integrity: 16 0
Armor Factor: 128 8
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 16 15
Center Torso (rear) 8
R/L Torso 12 12
R/L Torso (rear) 6
R/L Arms 8 14
R/L Legs 12 16
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Avionics RT/LT/HD 3 0
Landing Gear RT/CT/LT 3 0
Jump Jets RT/LT 4 2
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Inferno Configuration
Large Laser RA 2 5
SRM-4 RT 1 2
Flamer CT 1 1
SRM-4 LT 1 2
Ammo (SRM) 25 LT 1 1
Large Laser LA 2 5
Dogfighter Configuration
LB 10-X AC RA 6 11
Ammo (LB-X) 20 RA 2 2
Medium Laser RT 1 1
CASE RT 1 0.5
ER Small Laser CT 1 0.5
Medium Laser LT 1 1
Ripper Configuration
Binary Laser Cannon RA 4 9
Claws RA 4 3.5
Claws LA 4 3.5
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI), Atmospheric Flyer, Distracting
Notable Swoopers:
Swooper Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Swooper Inferno SpecMech Vet (2/1) Special Ops Wasp-1 LAM (’Mech/AirMech)
Bomberking Inferno ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Wasp-1 LAM (’Mech/AirMech)
Eviscerator Ripper SpecMech Reg (4/3) Special Ops Wasp-1 LAM (’Mech/AirMech)
Terra Soar Dogfighter ReconMech Vet (2/1) Scout Wasp-1 LAM (’Mech/AirMech)
Type: Tankus
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 100
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 10
Conversion Eqpt: Tracked 15
Engine: 300 19
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 296 18.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 31 35
Center Torso (rear) 20
R/L Torso 21 27
R/L Torso (rear) 15
R/L Arms 17 34
R/L Legs 21 40
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Tracks RA/RT/LT/LA 4 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Imperial Configuration A
ER PPC RA 3 7
AutoCannon/20 RT 10 14
Jump Jets CT 2 4
Ammo (AC/20) 10 LT 2 2
CASE LT 1 0.5
Wrecking Ball LA 5 4
Imperial Configuration B
ER PPC RA 3 7
ER PPC RT 3 7
Improved Jump Jet RL 2 4
Guardian ECM CT 2 1.5
Improved Jump Jet LL 2 4
ER PPC LT 3 7
Hunter Configuration
LRM-15 + Artemis IV RT 4 8
Ammo (LRM-15) 32 RT 4 4
CASE RT 1 0.5
Beagle Active Probe CT 2 1.5
LRM-15 + Artemis IV LT 4 8
ECM Suite LT 2 1.5
ER PPC LA 3 7
TAG HD 1 1
Thunder Configuration
LB 10-X AC RT 6 11
Ammo (LB-X) 20 RT 2 2
CASE RT 1 0.5
Jump Jet RL 1 2
Jump Jet LL 1 2
LB 10-X AC LT 6 11
Ammo (LB-X) 20 LT 2 2
CASE LT 1 0.5
ER Small Laser LA 1 0.5
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, Biped/Tracked ’Mech Conversion), Battle Fists, Command BattleMech, Cowl, Reinforced Legs, Searchlight
Notable Tankuses:
Tankus Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Mecha Tankus Imperial (A) CommandMech Elt (0/0) Infantry, Officer Shootist/Ajax
Shocker Tankus Hunter Analysis Elt (2/1) Scientist, Officer Highlander/Marksman M1
Alpha Blitzer Thunder ArtilleryMech Reg (3/2) Scout Highlander/Demolisher
Galvan Tankus Imperial (B) CommandMech Vet (2/1) Infantry, Officer Highlander/Morrigu
Type: AeroMech
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 40
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 4
Conversion Eqpt: Aero 6
Engine: 200 8.5
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 8
Safe Thrust: 8
Max Thrust: 12
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Fuel: 80 0
Structural Integrity: 12 0
Armor Factor: 96 6
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 12 10
Center Torso (rear) 7
R/L Torso 10 10
R/L Torso (rear) 5
R/L Arms 6 10
R/L Legs 10 10
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Avionics RT/LT/HD 3 0
Landing Gear RT/CT/LT 3 0
Improved Jump Jets RL/RT/LT/LL 8 4
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Interceptor Configuration
Light PPC RA 2 3
LRM-5 RT 1 2
LRM-5 LT 1 2
Ammo (LRM) 24 LT 1 1
Fuel (80) LT 1 1
CASE LT 1 0.5
Medium Laser LA 1 1
Dogfighter Configuration
Large Laser RA 2 5
SRM-4 RT 1 2
SRM-4 LT 1 2
Ammo (SRM) 25 LT 1 1
CASE LT 1 0.5
Bombardier Configuration
Medium Pulse Laser RA 1 2
SRM-6 RT 2 3
SRM-6 LT 2 3
Ammo (SRM) 30 LT 2 2
CASE LT 1 0.5
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI), Atmospheric Flyer, Jettison-Capable Weapons (Hands), Nimble Jumper
Notable AeroMechs:
AeroMech Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Aero-Diver Interceptor Analysis Vet (3/2) Intelligence Wasp-1/Rapier
Aero-Shot Dogfighter GruntMech Vet (3/2) Minimal Wasp-1/Rapier
Aero-Fire Bombardier NinjaMech Vet (3/0) Infantry-AntiMech Wasp-1/Rapier
Aero-Raider Interceptor ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Wasp-1/S-Hawk LAM (ASF)
Type: Leader
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 85
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 8.5
Conversion Eqpt: Wheeled 13
Engine: 255 13
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Wheeled Cruise MP: 4
Wheeled Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 232 14.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 27 31
Center Torso (rear) 20
R/L Torso 18 20
R/L Torso (rear) 16
R/L Arms 14 20
R/L Legs 18 30
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Wheels RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Prime Configuration A
Gauss Rifle RA 7 15
Ammo (Gauss) 16 RT 2 2
Large Pulse Laser CT 2 7
Hatchet LA 6 6
Prime Configuration B
2 ER PPCs RA 6 14
2 Double Heat Sinks RT 3 2
Large Pulse Laser CT 2 7
2 Double Heat Sinks LT 3 2
Chainsaw LA 5 5
Magna Configuration
Ultra AC/5 RA 5 9
Ammo (Ultra AC) 40 RA 2 2
Streak SRM-6 RA 2 4.5
Ammo (Streak) 30 RT 2 2
CASE RT 1 0.5
ER Large Laser CT 2 5
Ammo (Streak) 30 LT 2 2
CASE LT 1 0.5
Streak SRM-6 LA 2 4.5
Artillery Configuration A
Sword RA 6 5
LRM 15 RT 3 7
Ammo (LRM) 24 RT 3 3
CASE RT 1 0.5
Guardian ECM CT 2 1.5
LRM 15 LT 3 7
Double Heat Sink LT 3 1
ER Large Laser LA 2 5
Artillery Configuration B
Light PPC RA 2 3
LB 10-X AC RT 6 11
Ammo (LB 10-X) 20 RT 2 2
CASE RT 1 0.5
LB 10-X AC LT 6 11
Ammo (LB 10-X) 20 LT 2 2
CASE LT 1 0.5
Transport Configuration A
ER Large Laser RA 2 5
2 Flamers RA 2 2
Cargo (7 tons) RT 7 7
Jump Jet RT 1 1
CASE RT 1 0.5
Cargo (7 tons) LT 7 7
Jump Jet LT 1 1
CASE LT 1 0.5
2 Fluid Guns LA 2 4
Ammo (Fluid) 40 LA 2 2
Transport Configuration B
Snub-Nose PPC RA 2 6
Beagle Active Probe RT 2 1.5
Cargo (9 tons) RT 9 9
Jump Jet RT 1 1
Jump Jet CT 1 1
Guardian ECM Suite LT 2 1.5
Cargo (9 tons) LT 9 9
Jump Jet LT 1 1
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, BattleMech/Wheeled Vehicle Conversion), Battle Computer, Battle Fists, Command BattleMech, Jettison-Capable Weapon (Right Hand), Modular Weapons, Rugged (2), Searchlight
Notable Leaders:
Leader Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Primus Optimal Prime (A) CommandMech Elt (0/0) Analysis, Officer Grand Titan/HQ Vehicle
Primus Thermal Prime (B) CommandMech Vet (2/1) Infantry, Officer Banshee/Coolant Truck
Magnum Ultra Magna CommandMech Elt (1/1) Infantry, Officer Grand Titan/Indra
Master Motor Artillery (A) CommandMech Vet (2/1) Infantry, Officer Grand Titan/HQ Vehicle
Master Onslaught Artillery (B) CommandMech Vet (2/1) Infantry, Officer Grand Titan/Long Tom MV
Master Nemesis Prime (A) NinjaMech Vet (3/0) Infantry Grand Titan/HQ Vehicle
October Alpha Transport (A) Explorer Vet (4/2) Planetary Surveyor Grand Titan/Coolant Truck
Star Train Alpha Transport (B) ReconMech Vet (2/1) Scout Banshee/Long Tom MV
Question about the Leader. Do they get the trailer? Optimus was famous having a armed trailer with various equipment in it. BattleTech has such a trailer, the Gun Trailer, only thing a Leader would need is a trailer hitch.
Gun Trailer could have repair gantry, communication equipment. Wheelie, the drone vehicle for scouting, fixed gun placement etc. Just suggestion.
I thought the proper spelling was FASA Fisiks? ??? ;D
Type: Seeker
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 50
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 5
Conversion Eqpt: Aero 7.5
Engine: 250 12.5
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 8
Safe Thrust: 8
Max Thrust: 12
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Fuel: 80 0
Structural Integrity: 16 0
Armor Factor: 112 7
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 16 12
Center Torso (rear) 7
R/L Torso 12 10
R/L Torso (rear) 5
R/L Arms 8 12
R/L Legs 12 15
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Avionics RT/LT/HD 3 0
Landing Gear RT/CT/LT 3 0
Improved Jump Jets RL/RT/LT/LL 8 4
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Strafer Configuration A
Medium Pulse Laser RA 1 2
ER Medium Laser RA 1 1
Fuel (80) RT 1 1
Double Heat Sink LT 3 1
Medium Pulse Laser LA 1 2
ER Medium Laser LA 1 1
Strafer Configuration B
2 ER Medium Lasers RA 2 2
Double Heat Sink RT 3 1
Fuel (80) RT 1 1
TAG LT 1 1
Double Heat Sink LT 3 1
2 ER Medium Lasers LA 2 2
Interceptor Configuration A
Light PPC RA 2 3
Primitive Rocket Launcher-15 RT 2 1
Primitive Rocket Launcher-15 LT 2 1
Light PPC LA 2 3
Interceptor Configuration B
ER Medium Laser RA 1 1
LRM 5 RT 1 2
ER Small Laser CT 1 0.5
Ammo (LRM) 24 LT 1 1
CASE LT 1 0.5
LRM 5 LT 1 2
ER Medium Laser LA 1 1
Ambusher Configuration A
SRM 4 RA 1 2
Guardian ECM RT 2 1.5
CASE LT 1 0.5
SRM 4 LA 2 2
Machine Gun LA 1 0.5
Ammo (MG) 100 LA 1 0.5
Ammo (Streak) 25 LA 1 1
Ambusher Configuration B
ER Medium Laser RA 1 1
LRM-10 RT 2 5
Ammo (LRM) 12 LT 1 1
ER Medium Laser LA 1 1
Bladefighter Configuration
Medium Vibroblade RA 2 5
ER Medium Laser RT 1 1
ER Medium Laser CT 1 1
ER Medium Laser LT 1 1
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, BattleMech/Fighter Conversion), Atmospheric Flyer, Nimble Jumper, Ubiquitous (Syberia)
Notable Seekers:
Seeker Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Star Seeker Strafer (B) CommandMech Elt (0/0) Scout, Officer Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Sky Seeker Ambusher (A) SpecMech Vet (2/1) Special Forces Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Thunder Seeker Ambusher (B) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Acid Seeker Interceptor (B) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Ion Seeker Interceptor (A) SpecMech Vet (2/1) Special Forces Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Nova Seeker Strafer (A) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Bit Seeker Strafer (A) Analyzer Vet (3/2) Analysis Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Heat Seeker Interceptor (B*) CraftsMech Vet (5/1) Engineer Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Cell Seeker Ambusher (B) ArtilleryMech Reg (5/4) Infantry Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Sun Seeker Strafer (B**) SpecMech Reg (4/3) Special Forces Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Death Seeker Ambusher (A) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Ram Seeker Ambusher (A) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Thrust Seeker Ambusher (B) ReconMech Vet (2/1) Scout Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Blast Seeker Ambusher (B) ReconMech Reg (3/2) Scout Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Black Seeker Strafer (B) NinjaMech Vet (1/0) Infantry-AntiMech Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Red Seeker Interceptor (A) GruntMech Reg (5/4) Minimal Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Sand Seeker Ambusher (A) ReconMech Reg (3/2) Scout Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Stream Seeker Ambusher (A) ReconMech Vet (2/1) Scout Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Air Blade Bladefighter NinjaMech Vet (1/0) Infantry-AntiMech Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Poniard Bladefighter† SpecMech Vet (2/1) Special Forces Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
Maximia Strafer (A) ReconMech Vet (2/1) Scout Phoenix Hawk/Mechbuster
*This AutoMech swaps its left ER Medium Laser for a Flamer
**This AutoMech swaps both extra double heat sinks for 2 more ER Medium Lasers
†This AutoMech swaps its Medium Vibroblade and central ER Medium Laser for 2 Small Vibroblades (one in each hand)
Herb, how about the Typhoon for Roadbuster?
Didn't turn out too bad.
More...
AeroMech (Aerofighter AutoMech)
AutoBoPs! Convert and Charge!
Leader (Wheeled AutoMech)
Oh, Seeker class updates!
Seeker (Aerofighter AutoMech)
I have a vague recollection that someone actually statted one up somewhere, years ago. I didn't give them one, though. The mini form I gave them was that of an HQ vehicle, which has a trailer built into it. So, I kind of handwaved that the Leader form took a bit of a G1 Motor Master approach to big rigs by integrating the trailer into the body itself (if only in my own mind).
Plus, much like the size-changing aspect of (many) G1 characters, I figured Prime's magic disappearing/reappearing trailer was best not appearing on Syberia, where they have a *little* more respect for physics (even if it's FASA Physics). ;)
- Herb
Hmmm. Most of his toy forms are supposed to be jeeps, not tanks, but there does seem to be at least one that's patterned on an armored car. And the comics seem to depict him as being a rather large fellow, at least in bot mode, so... sure?
What are you thinking for his Mech form then?
- Herb
I was just wondering if the Trailer would be an Emplacement/Wheeled AutoMech or just a Trailer with an AI. Probably just a Trailer. Folding walls isn't much of a transformation.
Plus it'd make building it easier. There could be multiple types too.
If you wanted to make it an AutoMech, it would have to be wheeled rather than an emplacement, with a negligible fusion engine--lower than could give it even 1 MP. It would also have a Mech mode. Alternately, you'd could make it as a wheeled support vehicle with trailer and convertible chassis mods (to cover its fold-out configuration) and all the features you want to build into it. Roller would be its own vehicle drone, stored inside the trailer's cargo bay. The gun system would be built into the trailer, of course. (The TF wiki says the weapon system inside Prime's trailer features a mix of artillery and beam weapons, as well as one or two grapple manipulators, which basically operate on an internal turret. A Mobile Field Base or something like that could also be in there.)
That's if you wanted to futz with it, of course. I feel Primus Optimal is complete as it is.
- Herb
If you wanted to make it an AutoMech, it would have to be wheeled rather than an emplacement, with a negligible fusion engine--lower than could give it even 1 MP. It would also have a Mech mode. Alternately, you'd could make it as a wheeled support vehicle with trailer and convertible chassis mods (to cover its fold-out configuration) and all the features you want to build into it. Roller would be its own vehicle drone, stored inside the trailer's cargo bay. The gun system would be built into the trailer, of course. (The TF wiki says the weapon system inside Prime's trailer features a mix of artillery and beam weapons, as well as one or two grapple manipulators, which basically operate on an internal turret. A Mobile Field Base or something like that could also be in there.)
That's if you wanted to futz with it, of course. I feel Primus Optimal is complete as it is.
- Herb
Give the trailer 5% of its mass taken up by the semi-transformation ability?
It also means you can have multiple types of trailers:
1) as described above, where it has a small drone in the cargo bay along with weapons
2) a trailer carrying a Heavy Vehicle Bay, so a Transformer that is damaged on the battlefield can be carted away in vehicle mode
3) A trailer with extra weapons/ammo for the units to shoot with (do the Transformers have access to CASE technology?)
Type: Hounder
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 60
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 6
Conversion Eqpt: Wheeled 9
Engine: 300 19
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Wheeled Cruise MP: 6
Wheeled Flank MP: 9
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 152 9.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 20 20
Center Torso (rear) 7
R/L Torso 14 20
R/L Torso (rear) 6
R/L Arms 10 16
R/L Legs 14 16
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Wheels RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Common Configuration A
ER Large Laser RA 2 5
SRM 6 LT 2 3
Ammo (SRM) 15 LT 1 1
CASE LT 1 0.5
Medium Laser HD 1 1
Common Configuration B
Light PPC RT 2 3
Guardian ECM Suite LT 2 1.5
ER Medium Laser LT 1 1
ER Large Laser LA 2 5
Maintainer Configuration
Lift Hoist RA 3 3
Light TAG LT 1 0.5
Large Laser LA 2 5
Spot Welder LA 1 2
Striker Configuration (A)
Snub-Nose PPC RA 2 6
Narc Missile Beacon LT 2 3
Ammo (Narc) 6 LT 1 1
CASE LT 1 0.5
Striker Configuration (B)
Binary Laser Cannon RA 4 9
Cargo (0.5 ton) LT 1 0.5
Flamer HD 1 1
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, BattleMech/Wheeled Vehicle Conversion). Extended Torso Twist, Improved Communications, Jettison-Capable Weapon (Right Hand), Protected Actuators, Ubiquitous (Syberia), Trailer Hitch (Vehicle Mode Only)
Credit: Giovanni Blasini, for base chassis design
Notable Hounders:
Hounder Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Hounder Common (A) ReconMech Vet (2/1) Scout Wolverine/Armed Ibex
Vee-Trailer Common (B) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Wolverine/Striker
Vee-Hoister Maintainer DoctorMech Vet (4/2) Technician–’Mech Wolverine/Striker
Chroma-Vee Striker (A) SpecMech Vet (2/1) Special Forces Wolverine/Demon
Fire-Vee Striker (B) ReconMech Reg (4/3) Scout Wolverine/Demon
Tilt-Hounder Common (A) ArtilleryMech Reg (5/4) Infantry Wolverine/Armed Ibex
Type: Spybird Recon Drone
Movement Type: Fixed Wing (Small)
Equipment Rating: E/X-X-X/D
Mass: 3 tons
Equipment Mass
Chassis: 288kg
Engine/Controls: Robotic 540kg
Type Solar
Safe Thrust 2
Max Thrust 3
Structural Integrity: 2
Fuel: — 0kg
Armor Factor (BAR 4): 6 156kg
Armor
Value
Nose: 3
R/L Wing: 1/1
Aft: 1
Weapons and Ammo Location Slots Mass
Advanced Fire Control — 0 2kg
Recon Camera Nose 1 500kg
2 Handheld Searchlights Nose 0 10kg
Mauser 960 Laser Rifle (75/10) R. Wing 1 12kg
Mauser 960 Laser Rifle (75/10) L. Wing 1 12kg
Remote Sensors/Dispenser (5) Aft 1 580kg
Crew: None
Cargo: None
Notes: Features Prop, Ultra-Light, and VSTOL chassis modifications. Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI), Code-Bonded (Unit may only operate within 100 km of its designated command unit)
Credit: Giovanni Blasini for Original Design and Fluff
Notable Spybirds:
Spybird Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Laserbeam Drone Scrambler (A) ReconMech Vet (2/1) Scout NA/Aeshna (Micro)
Vibroblade Drone Common (B) ReconMech Reg (3/2) Scout NA/Aeshna (Micro)
Night Recon Drone Common (A) ReconMech Reg (3/2) Scout NA/Aeshna (Micro)
Type: Jack
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 50
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 5
Conversion Eqpt: Wheeled 7.5
Engine: 250 12.5
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Wheeled Cruise MP: 6
Wheeled Flank MP: 9
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 152 9.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 16 23
Center Torso (rear) 8
R/L Torso 12 18
R/L Torso (rear) 6
R/L Arms 8 16
R/L Legs 12 16
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Wheels RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Common Configuration A
Medium Laser RA 1 1
LRM 5 RT 1 2
Ammo (LRM) 24 RT 1 1
CASE RT 1 0.5
ER Large Laser LT 2 5
Common Configuration B
Light PPC RA 2 3
Beagle Active Probe CT 2 1.5
Narc Missile Beacon LT 2 3
Ammo (Narc) 6 LT 1 1
CASE LT 1 0.5
Light TAG HD 1 0.5
Leaper Configuration A
Medium Pulse Laser RA 1 2
Jump Jets RT 2 1
Jump Jet CT 1 0.5
Jump Jets LT 2 1
ER Large Laser LT 1 5
Leaper Configuration B
Medium Laser RA 1 1
Jump Jets RT 2 1
Streak SRM-2 RT 1 1.5
Guardian ECM Suite RT 2 1.5
Jump Jet CT 1 0.5
Jump Jets LT 2 1
Streak SRM-2 LT 1 1.5
Ammo (SRM) 50 LT 1 1
CASE LT 1 0.5
Maintainer Configuration
ER Medium Laser RA 1 1
Beagle Active Probe CT 2 1.5
Narc Missile Beacon LT 2 3
Ammo (Narc) 12 LT 2 2
CASE LT 1 0.5
ER Medium Laser LA 1 1
ER Small Laser HD 1 0.5
Rampager Configuration A
3 ER Medium Lasers RA 3 3
Double Heat Sink RT 3 1
Beagle Active Probe CT 2 1.5
Double Heat Sink LT 3 1
3 ER Medium Lasers LA 3 3
Rampager Configuration B
Small Vibroblade RA 1 3
ER Medium Laser RA 1 1
Jump Jets RT 2 1
Jump Jet CT 1 0.5
Jump Jets LT 2 1
Small Vibroblade LA 1 3
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, Biped/Wheeled ’Mech Conversion), Battle Fists, Jettison-Capable Weapon (Right Hand), Rugged (1 Point), Ubiquitous (Syberia)
Credit: Giovanni Blasini for the base design
Notable Jacks:
Jack Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Lighter Jack Common (A) ReconMech Reg (3/2) Scout Shadow Hawk/Rotunda
Wheeler Jack Maintainer DoctorMech Vet (1/0) Tech–’Mech, Officer Shadow Hawk/Rotunda
Swiper Jack Leaper (A) ReconMech Reg (3/2) Scout Shadow Hawk/Rotunda
Red Jack Common (B) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Shadow Hawk/Rotunda
Tracker Jack Leaper (B) ReconMech Reg (3/2) Scout Shadow Hawk/Rotunda
Luna Jack Common (A) NinjaMech Vet (3/0) Infantry-AntiMech Shadow Hawk/Rotunda
Heat Jack Rampager (A) ReconMech Reg (3/2) Scout Shadow Hawk/Rotunda
Trapspringer-One Rampager (B) SpecMech Elt (1/0) Infantry-AntiMech Shadow Hawk/Rotunda
Break Ender Common (B) ReconMech Vet (2/1) Scout Shadow Hawk/Rotunda
Dead Ender Common (A) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Shadow Hawk/Rotunda
Wild Ender Rampager (A) ReconMech Vet (2/1) Scout Shadow Hawk/Rotunda
Question: Would specific bots need to have skills uploaded to them or they built in? Wheel Jack was a tinker/scientist while the Jet Fire was explorer. I know there was never mention of skills, but Groundwave (character) shows more abilities than most. I just wonder if these guys have a skill set that built or even listed. Having tools, not necessary means you have know-how to use them. Ratchet would need know how to repair their fellow bots, perhaps improvise.
Type: Spybird Recon Drone
Movement Type: Fixed Wing (Small)
Equipment Rating: E/X-X-X/D
Mass: 3 tons
Equipment Mass
Chassis: 288kg
Engine/Controls: Robotic 540kg
Type Solar
Safe Thrust 2
Max Thrust 3
Structural Integrity: 2
Fuel: — 0kg
Armor Factor (BAR 7): 6 270kg
Armor
Value
Nose: 3
R/L Wing: 1/1
Aft: 1
Weapons and Ammo Location Slots Mass
Advanced Fire Control — 0 60kg
Recon Camera Nose 1 500kg
2 Handheld Searchlights Nose 0 10kg
Heavy Support Laser (42) R. Wing 1 315kg
Heavy Support Laser (42) L. Wing 1 315kg
Remote Sensors/Dispenser (10) Aft 1 660kg
Crew: None
Cargo: 42kg
Notes: Features Prop, Ultra-Light, and VSTOL chassis modifications. Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI), Code-Bonded (Unit may only operate within 100 km of its designated command unit)
Credit: Giovanni Blasini for Original Design and Fluff
Notable Spybirds:
Spybird Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Laserbeam Drone Scrambler (A) ReconMech Vet (2/1) Scout NA/Aeshna (Micro)
Vibroblade Drone Common (B) ReconMech Reg (3/2) Scout NA/Aeshna (Micro)
Night Recon Drone Common (A) ReconMech Reg (3/2) Scout NA/Aeshna (Micro)
Spybird Drones, Eject! Operation: Enhancement!
Spybird Recon Drone
Thanks to their small size, and ability to hitch a ride inside another AutoMech's cargo hold, Spybirds can eschew fusion power, and instead use solar cells on their wings, to power the ducted fans that give them flight. While this limits their speed, it also means their powerplants do not interfere with the Sounder's fusion reactor. The fans also enable VSTOL capability, and run quietly enough that these small scouts can stealthily touch down close enough to enemy positions to overhear their chatter.
- Herb
No I'm wondering if you could make a Spybird with a 'pair' of engines:
1) Battery-powered electric for higher speed
2) Solar-powered (as above) for lower speed endurance
This would allow the Spybird to operate at maybe 5/8 for a short distance near its paired unit (for as long as the battery holds out), but at longer ranges would slow down due to only having Solar power for its engines.
The battery would be recharged by the AutoMech's fusion reactor, though I suppose a heat burden might be applied while doing so.
Unless this is the sort of thinking that Groundwave can do, and not the AutoMechs?
Oh It does clear stuff up. I was curious as a character/ non-player character that you would need list these preloaded skills their design like Tech (basic repair) level 5, need roll 2D6 to fix it. Would that be listed as a illegal design quirk bwith level?
I guess these machines weren't meant like to be needing get into that level of details .
AutoMech “Character” Creation
AutoMechs are not truly sentient, of course, but their unique programming is adaptive enough to “learn” new skills and abilities as appropriate to their chassis configurations, equipment, and mission roles. These adaptive programs, generated using templates provided by central computers, establish the basic personalities and job responsibilities of these sophisticated drones in their “society”. The longer each drone remains on-line, the better it becomes at its assigned tasks and the more its personality will evolve.
But, rather than devising an elaborate set of rules about AutoMech character generation, how about if we just randomly roll for it, huh? (Or, you know, pretend that you rolled; that works too. It’s your game table, after all…)
So, to randomly determine a given AutoMech’s function and base skill set, start by deciding if it’s going to be a civilian (or military support) robot, or if it’s meant for security and/or battle. Hint: If you put any ranged weapons on the thing that have no industrial function, and aren’t a Nail Gun, Rivet Gun, Fluid Gun, or Sprayer, it’s probably a combat model. Then, roll 2D6 and consult the Random AutoMech Functions and Skills Table appropriate to that broad classification. This will give you the primary function (character class) of your AutoMech, and the A Time of War Skill Field it receives—in addition to Sensor Operations, Language/English, and all Piloting/Driving and Gunnery Skills relevant to the AutoMech’s modes of operation (e.g. ’Mech and Aerospace for Fighter AutoMechs; ’Mech and Air Vehicle for VTOL AutoMechs, and so forth. If you find a Skill in there that makes no sense for a robotic “species” (like MedTech, Disguise, or Tactics/Infantry), either ignore it, or replace it with something that makes sense (e.g. Technician/Mechanical or Cryptography or Tactics/Ground or something). For those of you less interested in role-playing and more into finding out their Gunnery and Piloting TNs, read on.
Your next step is to determine the AutoMech’s experience level. This uses the simple mechanic found under the Random Experience Levels Table. If the AutoMech is intended to oppose active player characters, apply a modifier of +2 to the roll if you feel like they’ve been having it too easy, and –2 if they really suck. (Use your own metrics to decide which; we won’t judge.) Another –1 should also be applied to the roll if the AutoMechs involved are truly civilian in nature.
A Time of War: For players interested in the AutoMech’s skills under A Time of War, use the AToW Skill Levels for the unit’s experience level, applying the number listed before the word “(Field)” to all Skills under the AutoMech’s Skill Field (as determined by the AutoMech’s function. Then, apply the number of Skill levels shown after the Field to the listed number of Skills in the AutoMech’s entire repertoire. These bonus Skill levels replace any Skill level the AutoMech already has (so, for instance, the player may opt to take one of the 3 +1 Skill levels a Green AutoMech receives, and apply it to one of the drone’s Field Skills, replacing the +0 it ordinarily gets by default.
Remember that, in addition to their Field Skills, all AutoMechs possess Piloting and Gunnery Skills appropriate to their available modes of operation, as well as Language/English, and Sensor Operations. If any of these Piloting, Gunnery, Sensor Operations, Language, or Field Skills is not assigned a modifier after this, it receives a Skill Level of +0.
Note also that AutoMechs rated Veteran and higher receive a second function (and its corresponding Skill Field), with Skill Levels equal to those of the primary Field for a n AutoMech three Experience Levels lower than its own. This Field may be selected randomly in the same fashion used to assign the AutoMech’s original Field. Reroll if this results in a duplicate Field.
Total Warfare: For those who care only for the basic Gunnery and Piloting Skill target numbers (as used in Total Warfare), use the numbers found under the TW Base Gunnery/Piloting column for a given experience level, and then apply the respective modifiers found under the TW Gunnery/Piloting Mods column for that AutoMech’s function. This gives the AutoMech’s final Gunnery and Piloting Skill TNs, which apply regardless of the unit’s mode of operation.
Special Pilot Abilities: For even more flavor, players can also add Special Pilot Abilities to the mix. This should be reserved for AutoMechs rated Veteran or better. Since AutoMechs lack the Attributes and Traits found in player-characters, these SPAs do not need to satisfy prerequisites. Instead, assign the unit 200 XP for Veteran Experience, 400 XP for Elite, and 600 XP for Superlative, then use these XPs to purchase the desired SPAs as per their costs in A Time of War and the A Time of War Companion (see pp. 219-225, AToW and pp. 63-71, AToWC). If a SPA is given variable XP costs, use the higher value for purchasing purposes (and stop whining! Sheesh! You’re lucky we even thought about this stuff!).
AutoMech Factions: Now that the primary function and experience level have been determined, your AutoMech should choose a side. Prior to the events that led to their demise, the colonists who created the AutoMechs splintered into at least two warring camps: The Democratic Industrial Conglomeration, and the Autonomous Barony of Primus. Other, smaller groups also exist (such as the Inter-Sect Confederacy and the Dynamic Barony of Grim), but these have mainly aligned with either the DemoCon or AutoBoP factions after more than a century of sustained conflict.
By and large, there is no significant distinction between these factions. The DemoCon factions claim to be fighting for their freedom from the AutoBoP factions, and are somewhat more aggressive and indirect in their tactics, much like a guerilla force. Meanwhile, the AutoBoP factions seem to focus more on maintaining a strict chain of command and sharp delineations of function, like an enforced feudal organization that even includes the use of titles among command units (with a unit titled as the “Primus” recognized as the absolute ruler of all AutoBoP forces).
What that means for AutoMech character creation is up to the gamemaster, ultimately. Wer’re sure you can figure it out, though. Look over the IE report on Syberia to get a better feel of the setting.
Random AutoMech Functions and Skills Table
2D6 Roll Primary Function AToW Skill Field* TW Gunnery/Piloting Mods
Civilian and Support AutoMechs
2 Dealer Merchant +2 / +1
3-5 LaborMech Technician – Civilian +2 / +1
6 Miner Archaeologist +2 / +0
7 Explorer Planetary Surveyor +2 / +0
8 ForeMech Manager +0 / +0
9 CraftsMech Engineer +2 / –1
10 Communicator Communications +1 / +0
11 DoctorMech Technician – ’Mech +1 / +0
12 Analyzer Scientist, Analysis, or Intelligence** +0 / +0
Combat and Security AutoMechs
2-3 NinjaMech Infantry – Anti-’Mech +0 / –2
4-6 ReconMech Scout –1 / –1
7-8 GruntMech None +0 / +0
9 ArtilleryMech Infantry +0 / +0
10-11 SpecMech Special Forces –1 / –1
12 CommandMech Officer† –2 / –1
*All AutoMechs automatically possess Gunnery and Piloting Skills applicable to their mode(s) of operation, as well as Sensor Operations and Protocol/AutoMech Faction
**Pick one Field only, please! Don’t get greedy.
†Replace Melee Weapons with two Tactics Skills appropriate to the AutoMech’s modes of operation.
Random Experience Levels
2D6 Roll Experience Level AToW Skill Levels TW Base Gunnery/Piloting
2 or less Possibly Defective +0 (Field), –1 (x2)* 7 / 7
3 Really Green +0 (Field), +1 (x1) 7 / 6
4-5 Green +0 (Field), +1 (x3) 6 / 5
6-7 Regular +1 (Field), +1 (x2), +2 (x1) 5 / 4
8-9 Above Average +2 (Field), +2 (x3), +3 (x2) 4 / 3
10-11 Veteran +3 (Field), +4 (x2), +5 (x2)** 3 / 2
12 Elite +4 (Field), +5 (x4), +7 (x2)** 2 / 1
13 or more Superlative +6 (Field), +7 (x4), +9 (x2)** 1 / 0
*Yes, it is possible for this one to be worse than base levels; you must apply these modifiers
**Add a second Field. Apply Field Modifiers to original Field only; New Field starts with Skill Levels from 3 levels lower on this table.
Type: Ghost
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 40
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 4
Conversion Eqpt: Wheeled 6
Engine: 280 16
Walking MP: 7
Running MP: 11
Jumping MP: 0
Safe Thrust: 8
Max Thrust: 12
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 80 5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 5
Center Torso 12 10
Center Torso (rear) 5
R/L Torso 10 10
R/L Torso (rear) 4
R/L Arms 6 6
R/L Legs 10 10
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Wheels RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Stealther Configuration
ER Medium Laser RA 1 1
Guardian ECM Suite CT 2 1.5
Prim. Rocket Launcher 10 LT 1 0.5
Racer Configuration
ER Medium Laser RA 1 1
Prim. Rocket Launcher 15 CT 2 1
ER Medium Laser LA 1 1
Scrapper Configuration
Spikes RA 1 0.5
Spikes RL 1 0.5
Spikes LA 1 0.5
Medium Laser LA 1 1
Spikes LL 1 0.5
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, BattleMech/Wheeled Vehicle Conversion), Improved Sensors, Jettison-Capable Weapon (Right Hand), Power Reverse, Protected Actuators
Notable Seekers:
Seeker Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Sensor Ghost Stealther SpecMech Vet (2/1) Special Forces Assassin/Zephyros
Drag Ender Racer ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Assassin/Zephyros
Junker Scrapper Explorer Reg (3/2) Planetary Surveyor Assassin/Zephyros*
*This AutoMech uses standard Heat Sinks
Warpath and Roadbuster are now posted in the mini section.
Type: Tanker
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 50
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 5
Conversion Eqpt: Tracked 7.5
Engine: 200 8.5
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Tracked Cruise MP: 4
Tracked Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 120 7.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 18 15
Center Torso (rear) 8
R/L Torso 13 12
R/L Torso (rear) 6
R/L Arms 9 11
R/L Legs 13 15
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Tracks RA/RL/LL/LA 4 0
2 Double Heat Sinks RA/LA 6 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Blaster Configuration
Sniper Cannon RT 10 15
Ammo (Sniper AC) 10 LT 1 1
CASE LT 1 0.5
Thunder Configuration
LB 10-X Autocannon RT 6 11
SRM-4 CT 1 2
Ammo (LB 10-X) 20 LT 2 2
Ammo (SRM-4) 25 LT 1 1
CASE LT 1 0.5
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, Biped/Tracked ’Mech Conversion), Battle Computer, Battle Fists, Reinforced Legs, Searchlight, Abnormal Conversion (Front Right Torso and Right Arm swap places on Firing Arcs/Hit Location Tables used while in vehicle mode)
Notable Tankers:
Tanker Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Warp Tanker Blaster ArtilleryMech Elt (0/0) Infantry, Officer Rook/Marsden II
(TCC) Blunter Thunder ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Rook/Enyo
[/quote]
And we have a rare one here: A Wheeled AutoMech that uses a variant transformation scheme! In the standard AutoMech conversion rules, arms become turrets, but Warpa--Warp Tanker--clearly has a huge, torso-mounted cannon. Using the precedent of the Marauder (which assigns the dorsal centerline gun to a side torso) the Tanker class "roots" its centerline weapon into a side torso rather than the Center Torso. Given this, the right torso becomes the turret in vehicle mode, while the right arm becomes the right side panels of this AutoMech when it goes into Vehicle mode--but only for the purposes of determining firing arcs and hit locations while in its tank form.
And yes, that's the Sniper Artillery Cannon that Warp Tanker is using. Not the larger Sniper Artillery Piece. In holding to the Star League-plus-Inner-Sphere-gear-up-to-3060 rule we agreed on many a page ago, the artillery cannons are fair game.
- Herb
Ideally I wanted something like the Galleon's top laser, but I didn't have any bits that looked right, and I figured it was a close enough compromise for an off-set top mounted gun.
Type: Buster
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 75
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 7.5
Conversion Eqpt: Wheeled 11.5
Engine: 225 10
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Wheeled Cruise MP: 4
Wheeled Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 200 12.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 23 25
Center Torso (rear) 14
R/L Torso 16 20
R/L Torso (rear) 8
R/L Arms 12 20
R/L Legs 16 28
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Wheels RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
Double Heat Sink RT 3 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Wrecker Configuration
Gauss Rifle RA 7 15
Ammo (Gauss) 16 RA 2 2
Light PPC RT 2 3
2 Medium Lasers CT 2 2
Ammo (SRM) 15 LT 1 1
CASE LT 1 0.5
SRM-6 LA 2 3
ER Medium Laser LA 1 1
Reacher Configuration
Gauss Rifle RA 7 15
Ammo (Gauss) 16 RA 2 2
Lift Hoist RT (R) 3 3
Guardian ECM Suite CT 2 1.5
Lift Hoist LT (R) 3 3
2 ER Medium Lasers LA 2 2
TAG HD 1 1
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, BattleMech/Wheeled Vehicle Conversion). Jettison-Capable Weapon (Right Hand), Protected Actuators, Trailer Hitch (Vehicle Mode Only)
Notable Busters:
Buster Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Road Wrecker Wrecker ArtilleryMech Elt (0/0) Infantry Shadow Hawk/Typhoon
Long Reacher Reacher ForeMech Grn (6/5) Manager Shadow Hawk/Typhoon
I have to remember that you need to stat them if I build them too. ;D
Stats look good, and I'm waiting for a IWM order to show up, as I have something else in the works you may like.
Type: Dozer
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 40
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 4
Conversion Eqpt: Wheeled 6
Engine: 120 4
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Wheeled Cruise MP: 4
Wheeled Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks (Standard): 10 0
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 96 6
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 6
Center Torso 12 12
Center Torso (rear) 6
R/L Torso 10 10
R/L Torso (rear) 4
R/L Arms 6 10
R/L Legs 10 12
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Wheels RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
6 Double Heat Sinks 3RT/3LT 6 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Dozer Configuration
PPC RA 3 7
Ammo (Ultra AC/5) 20 RA 1 1
Bulldozer CT 1 2*
Cargo (2 tons) LT 2 2
Salvage Arm LA 2 3
Hoser Configuration
Light PPC RA 2 3
Cargo (4.55 tons, Fluid) RT 5 5
2 Flamers CT 2 2
Ammo (Fluid) 40 LT 2 2
Fluid Gun LA 2 2
Hauler Configuration
Dumper RT 1 0.5
Cargo (5 tons) RT 5 5
Dumper LT 1 0.5
Cargo (5 tons) LT 5 5
Light PPC LA 2 3
TAG HD 1 1
Notes: No turret in Vehicle Mode; Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, BattleMech/Wheeled Vehicle Conversion). Jettison-Capable Weapon (Right Hand), Protected Actuators, Trailer Hitch (Vehicle Mode Only); *Bulldozer can only be used in Vehicle Mode.
Notable Dozers:
Dozers Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Bug-Loader Hauler LaborMech Reg (7/5) Tech–Civilian Apollo/Flatbed Truck
Scrapper-D Scrapper CraftsMech Vet (3/0) Engineer, Officer Apollo/Turhan
Mixer-D Hoser Analyst Vet (3/2) Scientist Apollo/Coolant Truck
Hauler-D Hauler LaborMech Vet (5/3) Tech–Civilian Apollo/Indra
Type: Grinder
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 45
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 4.5
Conversion Eqpt: Tracked 7
Engine: 180 7
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Tracked Cruise MP: 4
Tracked Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 120 7.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 12 15
Center Torso (rear) 8
R/L Torso 11 12
R/L Torso (rear) 6
R/L Arms 7 11
R/L Legs 11 15
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Tracks RA/RL/LL/LA 4 0
3 Double Heat Sinks 2RT/1LT 9 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Tunneller Configuration
Mining Drill RA 4 3
Beagle Active Probe LT 2 1.5
2 Medium Lasers CT 2 2
Large Pulse Laser LA 2 7
Light TAG HD 1 0.5
Crusher Configuration
Binary Laser Cannon RA 4 9
Bulldozer CT 1 2*
Claw LA 3 3
Digger Configuration
2 Medium Pulse Lasers RA 2 4
Ammo (SRM 4) 25 RT 1 1
CASE RT 1 0.5
SRM-4 CT 1 2
Beagle Active Probe LT 2 1.5
Backhoe LA 6 5
Notes: No turret in Vehicle Mode (Exception: Digger Configuration); Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, Biped/Tracked ’Mech Conversion), Protected Actuators, Reinforced Legs, Searchlight, Trailer Hitch (Vehicle Mode Only); *Bulldozer can only be used in Vehicle Mode
Notable Grinders:
Grinder Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Cone Grinder Tunneller Miner AbvAvg (5/3) Archaeologist Beowulf/Hetzer (w/ Tracks)
Crusher-D Crusher ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Beowulf/Mithras
Salvager-D Digger Explorer Vet (5/2) Planetary Surveyor Beowulf/Zorya
Type: Lifter
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 75
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 7.5
Conversion Eqpt: Wheeled 11.5
Engine: 300 19
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Wheeled Cruise MP: 5
Wheeled Flank MP: 8
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 144 9
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 23 15
Center Torso (rear) 10
R/L Torso 16 14
R/L Torso (rear) 8
R/L Arms 12 15
R/L Legs 16 18
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Wheels RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Fire Control Configuration
ER Large Laser RA 2 5
Ladder (100m) RA 1 0.5
Cargo (5 tons) RT 5 5
Cargo (5 tons) LT 5 5
2 Fluid Guns LA 2 4
Ammo (Fluid) 40 LA 2 2
Small Laser HD 1 0.5
Crane Configuration
Large Pulse Laser RA 2 7
Beagle Active Probe RT 2 1.5
Guardian ECM Suite CT 2 1.5
Communications Equipment LT 6 6
2 Lift Hoists LA 6 6
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, BattleMech/Wheeled Vehicle Conversion). Command BattleMech, Improved Communications, Protected Actuators, Rugged (1), Searchlight, Trailer Hitch (Vehicle Mode Only); Jettison-Capable Weapon (Right Hand)
Notable Lifters:
Lifter Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Spot Lifter-P Fire Control CommandMech Vet (2/1) Infantry, Officer Grasshopper/Coolant Truck
Fire Crane Fire Control ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Grasshopper/Coolant Truck
Grapple Crane Crane CraftMech Vet (5/1) Engineer Grasshopper/JI-100
Hauler Crane Crane LaborMech Reg (7/5) Tech-Civilian Grasshopper/JI-100
Hooker-D Crane DoctorMech Elt (4/0) Tech-’Mech, Engineer Grasshopper/JI-100
Type: Cycler-C/D
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 45
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 4.5
Conversion Eqpt: Aero 7
Engine: 200 8.5
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 8
Safe Thrust: 8
Max Thrust: 12
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Fuel: 80 0
Structural Integrity: 14 0
Armor Factor: 96 6
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 14 10
Center Torso (rear) 7
R/L Torso 11 10
R/L Torso (rear) 5
R/L Arms 7 10
R/L Legs 11 10
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Avionics RT/LT/HD 3 0
Landing Gear RT/CT/LT 3 0
2 Double Heat Sinks RT/LT 6 0
4 Improved Jump Jets RL/RT/LT/LL 8 4
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Cycler-C Configuration
Small Vibroblade RA 3 3
2 Prim. Rocket Launcher 10s RT 2 1
2 Prim. Rocket Launcher 10s LT 2 1
ER Large Laser RA 2 5
Cycler-D Configuration
Large Laser RA 2 5
Large Laser LA 2 5
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI), Nonfunctional Item (Conversion System, -D model only), Atmospheric Flyer, Improved Communications (-C model only), Jettison-Capable Weapons (Hands), Nimble Jumper, Code-Bonded (Unit may only operate within 1,000 km of its designated air-command unit)
Notable Cyclers:
Cycler Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Cyclone Alpha Cycler-C CommandMech Vet (2/1) Artillery, Officer No-Dashi/Jagatai
Cyclone Drones Cycler-D GruntMech Reg (5/4) Minimal None/Jagatai
Yeah, I noticed. Was it the Reseen Wolverine you used as the basis there?
(And I see I must get to Whirl at some point now; he's one of the one-offs.)
- Herb
Cyclonus and his armada. Since the Cyclonus clones ended up amounting to nothing at all--being virtually forgotten before the 1986 movie even ended--while the Sweeps made appearances in the series later on, I decided the Syberian version of them was defective. Originally, I was going to build them as straight aerofighters, but felt "broken convertibles" had more character.
I'm just about out of multi-character units now, too. Pretty soon, I'll just be looking at one-offs.
- Herb
Correct, for some reason, I thought the Reseen's chest was easier to mod. Hound came out a bit more lanky than I liked though.
Ah. Okay. I seem to remember seeing a couple of him. How about the other seeker variants? The Cybertionan fighter ones? Or subvariants like Thrust and Dirge?
I painted Whirl up in a pale / sky blue. It does look kinda washed out come to think of it.
Amazing work, Herb. I could use these things in a gaming con as special even.
Type: Whirly
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 35
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 3.5
Conversion Eqpt: VTOL 5.5
Engine: 140 5
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
VTOL MP: 4
Wheeled Cruise MP: 6
Wheeled Flank MP: 9
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 0
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 104 6.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 11 15
Center Torso (rear) 6
R/L Torso 8 10
R/L Torso (rear) 5
R/L Arms 6 10
R/L Legs 8 12
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Conversion Gear RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
Rotors 2RT/2LT 4 4
5 Heat Sinks 2RT/2LT/LA 15 0
5.5t
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Common Configuration A
ER Medium Laser RA 1 1
ER Small Laser RA 1 0.5
2 ER Medium Lasers CT 2 2
ER Medium Laser LA 1 1
ER Small Laser LA 1 0.5
Light TAG HD 1 0.5
Common Configuration B
ER Medium Laser RA 1 1
2 Prim. Rocket Launcher 10s RA 2 1
Guardian ECM Suite CT 2 1.5
2 Prim. Rocket Launcher 10s LA 2 1
ER Medium Laser LA 1 1
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, BattleMech/VTOL Vehicle Conversion), Battle Fists, Improved Communications, Rugged (1)
Credit: Luciora, for visual design.
Notable Whirlys:
Whirly Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Storm Bird Common (B) ArtilleryMech Reg (4/3) Infantry Hyena/Balac Helicopter
Whirly Bird Common (A) SpecMech Vet (2/1) Special Forces Hyena/Balac Helicopter
Spinner Common (B) ReconMech AbvAvg (3/2) Scout Hyena/Balac Helicopter
Topper Common (A) ArtilleryMech Reg (4/3) Infantry Hyena/Balac Helicopter
Gio, I went over your figures and built the Spybird in my Support Vehicle spreadsheet to match...and have come up with 900kg left over. Any thoughts here?
- Herb
Spybird Drones, Eject! Operation: Enhancement!
Upgrades: The BAR value for the armor has been upped from 4 to 7. The Mauser 960 rifles have been swapped out for heavy support lasers, and the bug capacity for the sensor dispenser has been doubled. The resultant changes actually give these guys a chance to harry lighter AutoMechs and other small drones, while being instantly lethal to individual, unarmored humans. The result is still underweight, but only by enough mass to, say, carry a single, plucky, teen-aged hitchhiker.
Gio, let me know what you think!
- Herb
Those are all Seeker class. I show about...21 notable ones of those at present, and Thrust and Dirge are among them.
- Herb
At the rate I'm going, I could have a whole TRO covering the first three cartoon seasons, plus a few notable extras from other sources, in about a month. (Dunno if I want to bother with the spacecraft and cities, though; that may be a bridge too far for me.)
- Herb
And, as promised, here's Whirl!
Mine had this:
Drone Operating System BOD 0.8 - - - - -
Otherwise it was the same. When I created the Spybird, I'd envisioned the really little drones as essentially that: drones. They'd be controlled by the larger Syberian drones.
That's fantastic. I seriously dig the upgrade/change.
So the "Cybertonian" Fighters have the same stats as the "Earth" Fighters? Cool. Makes things easier. :)
Very cool. :) :thumbsup: :beer: The wheeled cruise/flank speeds confused me for a bit though. You had me thinking Springer or Sandstorm for a bit. ;D
Looking at the toys, there's a Whirl with an intermediate form like that of a LAM's AirMech Mode. https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:Whirl_generations_voyager.jpg Presuming Trimodal VTOLMechs were available, I'm not sure what it'd be good for other than the lighter conversion system and smaller size in that mode making it easier to hide. It'd be slower on the ground than Mech Mode and I don't the the Rotors would have an increased speed in that mode. It's still pretty cool though. What do you think?
especially since in mech mode it can still use the VTOL movement, so the "have both hands and VTOL MP" isn't a selling point the way it is with fighter-veemechs/LAMs
Type: AutoVee-1/-2 (Aero-/Wheeled-Unit)
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 35
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 3.5
Conversion Eqpt: Aero/Wheeled 9
Engine: 140 5
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4
AutoVee-1
Safe Thrust: 4
Max Thrust: 6
AutoVee-2
Wheeled Cruise MP: 5
Wheeled Flank MP: 8
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 0
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
AutoVee-1
Fuel: 80 0
Structural Integrity: 11 0
Armor Factor: 96 6
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 11 10
Center Torso (rear) 7
R/L Torso 8 10
R/L Torso (rear) 5
R/L Arms 6 10
R/L Legs 8 10
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
6 Heat Sinks 3RA/3LA 6 0
2 Jump Jets RT/LT 2 1
AutoVee-1
Avionics RT/LT/HD 3 0
Landing Gear RT/CT/LT 3 0
AutoVee-2
Conversion Equipment RL/LL 2 0
Wheels RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
AutoVee-1 Configuration
Large Laser RA 2 5
Fuel (40) LT 1 0.5
AutoVee-2 Configuration
Large Laser RA 2 5
Small Laser LA 1 0.5
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI [Both], BattleMech/Wheeled Vehicle Conversion [AutoVee-2 only]), Atmospheric Flyer (AutoVee-1 only), Ubiquitous (Syberia)
Notable AutoVees:
AutoVee Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
AutoVee-1 AutoVee-1 GruntMech Reg (5/4) Minimal Clint IIC/Niso WiGE
AutoVee-2 AutoVee-2 GruntMech Reg (5/4) Minimal Clint IIC/Zibler*
*The vehicle form of this AutoMech resembles a turretless version of the listed vehicle type, with four wheels.
especially since in mech mode it can still use the VTOL movement, so the "have both hands and VTOL MP" isn't a selling point the way it is with fighter-veemechs/LAMs
Ohyeah. In the base lore, at least as I understand it, Cybertronians didn't generally gain anything more than a new shape and movement mode when they adapted their appearances. Overall toughness and weaponry shouldn't change.
*looks* Cat damn it! That's supposed to be their VTOL-mode MP.
Nope. Still no tri-modal Syberians. See, technically, the Seekers all could do the same thing (especially once the toys with better articulation came along), and were shown doing such in the cartoon a few times. But I'm not giving that to them because I *hate* AirMech modes. So Whirly gets only chopper and Mech modes.
Ohyeah. I mean, why ever use full Mech mode if you can achieve a better mobility in the hybrid form? Another reason I won't be codifying AirMechs and their other hybrid-mode formats. Way easier and more credible that way.
- Herb
The Beastmachines sequal to beastwars had vehicons as well , sparkless bots created by BW megatron. Those versions had three very different chassis, with tank, jet and cycle vehicle modes.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Tank_drone
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Aero_Drone
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Cycle_Drone
later in the show you had helicopter and wheeled "artillery" drones. each type also had a "general" which was a drone given the reformatted spark of a TF. (something that bit megatron in the rear end when it turned out Tankor, the tank drone general, was a reprogrammed Rhinox)
the tank drones seem like they'd be the easiest.. could probably modify a Tankus type to have a missile system in the torso instead of the AC20 (arrow IV, if it's allowed?) and drop the wrecking ball for a pair of secondary Medium lasers in the opposite torso.
Yeah. I suppose that could be why trimodal didn't take off there. It wasn't really a success for the VTOL so they didn't continue with it with the result being no AirMechs.
Related question, how about the TFs with the same chassis but different motive systems?
Blur, Arcee - Hover
Arcee, Elita One - Wheeled (Blurr too if painted blue)
Brainstorm - WiGE/Fighter
Nautica - Sub
WiGEMechs being based on FighterMechs instead of VehicleMechs kind of throw things off but it does look like one basic chassis with different motive systems. Is that possible? Get a new variant just by changing the motive system?
Type: AutoShark
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 50
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 5
Conversion Eqpt: Naval (Sub) 7.5
Engine: 200 8.5
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
UMU MP: 4
Submarine Cruise MP: 4
Submarine Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks (Standard): 10 0
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 120 7.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 8
Center Torso 12 14
Center Torso (rear) 8
R/L Torso 10 12
R/L Torso (rear) 7
R/L Arms 6 12
R/L Legs 10 14
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Conversion Equipment RL/LL 2 0
2 Heat Sinks RT/LT 2 0
4 UMUs 2RT/2LT 4 2
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Common Configuration
Spikes RA 1 0.5
Wrecking Ball RA 4 5
Spikes RT 1 0.5
Lift Hoist RT 3 3
Spikes RL 1 0.5
Spikes CT 1 0.5
Spikes LT 1 0.5
Lift Hoist LT 3 3
Spikes LL 1 0.5
Spikes LA 1 0.5
Notes: No turret in vehicle mode; Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, Naval/’Mech Conversion), Distracting (Animalistic Vehicle Form), Protected Actuators, Searchlight
Notable AutoSharks:
AutoShark Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
PiranhaShark Common* GruntMech Vet (4/3) Minimal Bowman/Octopus DS (Micro)**
AutoShark Common GruntMech Reg (5/4) Minimal Bowman/Octopus DS (Micro)**
*This AutoShark switches the Common configuration’s Wrecking Ball to the left arm.
**Remove all but two “arms.”
Picked up some of the mini transformer toys.
Think they work with the mechs.
Thank you, Herb this really looking good! With Luciora and other's miniature conversions a TRO could really be done! :thumbsup:
Type: G-Turret
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 50
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 5
Conversion Eqpt: Emplacement 5
Engine: 250 12.5
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Emplacement MP: None
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 168 10.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 16 16
Center Torso (rear) 15
R/L Torso 12 13
R/L Torso (rear) 11
R/L Arms 8 16
R/L Legs 12 24
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Conversion Equipment RA/RT/LA/LT 4 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Blazer Configuration
Binary Laser Cannon RA 4 9
Laser Battery Configuration
Large Laser RA 2 5
Medium Laser RA 1 1
3 Medium Lasers LA 3 3
Pulse Battery Configuration
2 Medium Pulse Lasers RA 2 4
ER Medium Laser CT 1 1
2 Medium Pulse Lasers LA 2 4
Flak Gun Configuration
LB 5-X AutoCannon RA 5 8
Ammo (LB 5-X AC) 20 CT 1 1
Light PPC Configuration
Light PPC RA 2 3
Light PPC CT 2 3
Light PPC LA 2 3
Snub PPC Configuration
ER Medium Laser RA 1 1
Snub-Nose PPC CT 2 6
ER Medium Laser LA 1 1
ER Medium Laser HD 1 1
Watchpost Configuration
ER Medium Laser RA 1 1
Beagle Active Probe RT 2 1.5
Comms Equipment RT 2 2
TAG CT 1 1
TAG CT (R) 1 1
Guardian ECM Suite LA 2 1.5
ER Medium Laser LA 1 1
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, Biped/Quad ’Mech Conversion), Improved Sensors, Improved Targeting (All), Searchlight
Notable G-Turrets:
G-Turret Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
G-Turret Blazer GruntMech Reg (5/4) Minimal Blackjack-O/Typhoon Tank*
G-Turret Laser Battery GruntMech Reg (5/4) Minimal Blackjack-O/DI Schmitt Tank*
G-Turret Pulse Battery GruntMech Reg (5/4) Minimal Blackjack-O/DI Schmitt Tank*
G-Turret Flak Gun GruntMech Reg (5/4) Minimal Blackjack-O/Thumper Towed
G-Turret Light PPC GruntMech Reg (5/4) Minimal Blackjack-O/Moltke Tank*
G-Turret Snub PPC GruntMech Reg (5/4) Minimal Blackjack-O/Typhoon Tank*
G-Turret Watchpost GruntMech Reg (5/4) Minimal Blackjack-O/Turhan Tank*
*Turret only
Definitely would need an artist to provide lineart of the units, for a TRO. The philosophy I'm taking with the kitbashes is, it isn't necessarily the same auto/demo-con in mech form and alt-form, but a representative of that specific type, to match the fluff of a singular factory mass producing the chassis, and either design drift or repairs altering the final mode. Whirly for example uses a Balac base, while the Hyena Salvagemech actually lends itself more to a Hind style copter, after seeing the rounded backpack parts, but to maintain consistency, the paint work makes it stand out as Whirl.
Still more on my workbench, and I'm glad people are enjoying them!
WOO! Blazer Cannons FTW! :D
Wouldn't Shockwave (the original) consider to be emplacement / G-Turret?
I personally felt they have some merit, but Soundwave (The original Cybertron form, episode 1, miniseries) transforming into fixture seem...to me suggest he could form other things so he could spy on them.
Lordy, its been eons since I seen the original G1 series. The plot was wee bit more cornier than i remembered. ;D
the original shockwave was technically a pistol. like megatron, he would size change between modes. later toys made him a vehicle. for pretty much the same reason megatron became a vehicle instead of a pistol. not only did it resole some child safety issues IRL, but it made them much more intimidating since they could fight and move on their own in both modes.
For the most part, I have been keeping my selections to only one incarnation of the character (two for triple-changers and/or duocons). Blurr thus has a hover-based "Beetle II" chassis we've yet to see, while Arcee has been assigned to the Wheeled "Sneaker" chassis, along with a number of other "redecos/minor retools" in her frame. Brainstorm and Nautica are not currently on my list, but if they were...Brainstorm would likely get a new chassis type or be added to one of the aerofighter classes we already have ("Seeker," most likely, as his forms look close enough to me for the transition to make sense). And Nautica would get her own all-new chassis type, because there are currently no submarine Syberians on the list at all.
That's what I'd do. In the case of the AutoVees, deliberate effort was taken to make them all identical to each other. But for more distinctive personas, I would likely be making more distinct Mech mode/vehicle mode choices.
- Herb
Given your fascination with amphibious units, RifleMech, this one might fascinate you...
AutoShark (Submarine AutoMech)
So, in my ongoing play with what is fast becoming a completed TRO: Syberia, I have established a set of faction rules worth going by, setting what amounts to the "character" of how each of the known factions constructs its units:
----
Factional Features
The following rules apply only to the construction and game rules for the units “native to” (i.e. built by) the listed factions. Captured and reprogrammed units from other factions do not receive any features or restrictions from their new factions.
Picked up some of the mini transformer toys.
Think they work with the mechs.
Sounds cool. I did wonder how it'd be handled with so many characters being redecoed now. I would have made the G1 Brainstorm an Aerofighter and the later Brainstorm a VeeMech. That was before we had rules for WiGEMechs though. :) I suppose sharing the base chassis and some parts could still work though since they're Mechs that convert to something else.
:) Cool. I was wondering if some chassis' just naturally lent themselves to multiple motive types. It'd simplify construction and repairs some. It'd also mean one factory could produce units for a variety of terrain types. Something a smaller faction with less resources might like.
Love it! :) Thanks :thumbsup: :beer: Did I miss the AutoGator? :-\
Is Environmental Sealing built in to AutoMechs with Industrial Structures? Would a FighterMech built with Industrial Structure be a Conventional Fighter instead of an Aerospace Fighter or would it still be an Aerospace Fighter? Similarly would SubMech build with an Industrial Structure need environmental sealing to operate under water or is it built in?
Also would AutoMechs built with Industrial Structures have a lower gunnery do to having basic fire controls unless upgraded with advanced fire controls?
Since there's a couple AutoMechs that change things a bit, how far can things get pushed? I was thinking about Water Walk and his alt-mode being an amphibious sea-plane. http://images.shoutwiki.com/gbwiki/2/2f/GoBotsToyWaterWalk.jpg
Since he only lands on his legs, would it be too out of line to build him this way?
Build him with an Industrial Structure to use the flotation hull chassis mod. It's not available to aerospace fighters. Keep the 3 Avionics crits where they are but remove the Landing Gear crits from the Torso locations. Then place 1 Landing Gear Crit and 1 Float Crit (Chassis Mod) in each leg. Considering the small wheels, maybe give him the weak undercarriage quirk when landing on dry land?
Also would it be appropriate to use the AirMech hit chart instead of the Fighter one considering how close his plane mode is to an AirMech?
Have you come up with a idea for a "Blackout" big vtol from the first Bay movie?
I thought his attack in the first minutes of the movie was just awesome.
I also have the small Titanium version of that and is a perfect size for the Battletech sized miniatures!
Hmmm. Mini-wise, looking at the Pinto, the Hawk Moth, and the Kestrel as closest visual fits to his chopper mode. Any preference?
- Herb
Pinto is the closest I would think. It was based of the CH53E and that is a big helo.
Okay, so, that squares away the Vee form. What best fits his Mech form, now...? *searches* Getting the blades in the back is gonna be up to a modder, but he definitely has a recessed head with enough bulk about the shoulders to give him a hunched look. Seeing shoulder missiles. Sometime holds his blades as a weapon in his left hand (Cop-Tor style, IIRC). Toys give him a kind of dog-legged style.
Flamberge, Eyleuka, Dola, Cave Lion, Anvil, Gestalt, Spider-7K (MWDA), Shrike, Pariah, Jade Hawk... Do you have a favorite among those for Blackout?
- Herb
honestly i'd go with the Dola, since it has the right posture and profile.
If he'd picked the Dola, I'd have a chassis type ready to go for him; that's the Rotor model, most of which have a Cavalry VTOL conversion, but it wouldn't be the first time a body changed looks within the class. (My Tankuses are horrendously inconsistent; guess they like to customize.)
The Jade Hawk, with its "plumage" looks like an easy mod (the winglets mostly become Blackout's rotors), so I think I'll use that one.
Which means, Blackout gets a whole new body type!
- Herb
Yeah the Dola looks better.
Hmm, I could use some more decepticon balance. :)
I forgot about the Dola, I was probably too fixated on the skis and claws. In the end the mini I made could just be a one off. 🙂
There are some units that are using the same components, but with different motive systems, such as the earlier example of the AutoVees, which used the same tonnage, engines, and so forth, to achieve their 'Mech forms, but then had different motive systems (in their case, Aerofighter and Wheeled). So, yeah, there are/were factories doing something like that, somewhere in the Syberia system. But the net result is still a new and different chassis when you tweak the motive systems. This is why the hover-driven Beetle II (which our Blurr expy is) is different from the standard Beetles. Now, I can see making a Nautica along their lines, but as she's a different unit, she'd end up being a de facto "Beetle III" or something else entirely.
I don't think I posted it, no.
Well, shit. I've poured over a bunch of sources and, unless there's been an errata, I guess you'd be right and I'd have to re-engineer ALL the Industrial-based units. That, or handwave that the Syberians incorporated environmental sealing in their AutoMech chassis. *snaps fingers* Got it! What I've been calling IndustrialMech Structure is actually a variant of Primitive Structure with integrated enviro-sealing. As it is technically NOT primitive in nature per se, it can mount standard armor, rather than primitive armor. That way, I only need to add verbiage.
Nerp. If you look at the notes, fire control systems are addressed.
Blah. Go-Bots. Get away from me with that garbage!
Yeah, probably something like that. Cat knows I've already had to make a couple new features.
Nerp. We're sticking with the standard AutoMech hit tables. AirMechs don't exist as such in the Syberian system. (I mean, seriously, if we based it on the look of them, then the Marauder, Catapult, and any other Mech with chicken legs and a horizontal torso would use the AirMech table.)
- Herb
*slap* *slap* *slap*
- Herb
Well, I'm glad I didn't miss it but I'm sad its not posted. :(
:) Sounds like it's fixed. :thumbsup:
That's cool. I have wondered about doing that but haven't bothered to try it in a game.
Leaving aside the 12 DropShips/Mobile Structures/Large Naval Vessel, there is now a solid 242 units in my list here, spread across 78 chassis types. If I posted all of them, I'd be drowning out everyone else's input, and I don't think anyone wants that.
Yeah. THAT one is fixed, but now I'm starting to suspect I ****** up everything with Improved Jump Jets here. I anticipate some real screw-ups here.
Long ago, I considered it for a gimmick in an altered form of BattleTech I was making for another setting. In addition to things like adding a "Lower Torso" location and a D20-driven combat system. I was going to work up a list of chassis types and different hit location tables by said types. Toward the end I started feeling like I was adding rules for their own sake, and sucking all the fun out of playing it.
- Herb
Okay. So.....
I have only 7 tons to play with for Blackout's weaponry. (He's 35 tons, maxed armor, and has a 3/5/3V [5/8 in VTOL form].) To reflect his rotor when used as a weapon--which is not always the case--I actually thought I'd have some fun and opt for the industrial Combine at 2.5 tons and 4 crits. (A retractable blade is an alternative, weighs the same, and takes up one less crit, but doesn't go spinny-spinny.) The rest of his weapons are currently 3 ERMLs and a pair of RL-10s.
Thoughts?
- Herb
"Takes notes* Pinto and Jade Hawk.....
:) Nope but they'd still be nice to see. I don't know why but I like the Sharkticons and Alicons. :))
Why? ??? Syberian Improved Jump Jets don't have to be the same as IS versions.
Sounds interesting.
Isn't the LAM's jump jets essentially Improved Jump Jet's for conventional 'mechs?
Syberian Technology Base
The technology base used by the Syberian AutoMechs is roughly equal to that of the Inner Sphere in 3060. Any technology with an introduction date of 3060 or sooner is thus available for AutoMech use, unless it is specifically restricted by the rules below. (Note that even though Syberia may have been colonized prior to 2765, we’re just going to presume that either the AutoMechs’ original creators survived long enough to assimilate and produce the newer tech items of the Inner Sphere up to 3060. As they are not truly sentient, and are thus incapable of improvising or innovating outside of programmed parameters, it is nigh impossible that the factory drones themselves somehow managed to perfect technologies their human masters could not.)
Exceptions: There following key exceptions to the Syberian technology base apply to the general rules described above:
• Improved Industrial Structure – The Syberians wanted all their AutoMechs to function equally well on Syberia itself as well as in the various hostile environments elsewhere in the Syberian system. This included those units built to industrial standards. Therefore, they developed an improved form of Industrial Structure. Available only to AutoMechs, Improved Industrial Structure (IIS) weighs the same as standard Industrial internal structure and takes up no critical space, with all the associated limitations and rules, but incorporates the environmental sealing modification by default. AutoMechs with IIS thus do not need to spend additional tonnage on environmental sealing in order to function underwater or in hazardous environments like vacuum.
• Jump Rockets – Essentially the Syberian form of the Improved Jump Jet, the Jump Rocket system produces twice the thrust for the same weight and size as an Improved Jump Jet by firing longer bursts through their thrust nozzles—a feature only possible with engines designed for sustained thrust (such as those found on Aerofighter and WiGE units). Jump Rockets follow all the same construction and gameplay rules as an Improved Jump Jet of equal weight, but provides 2 Jump MP per Rocket, rather than 1. Because they are meant specifically for Aerofighter AutoMechs and WiGEMechs, Jump Rockets may not be used with any other unit type.
• C3 Computers – The Syberians never developed an equivalent to the C3 Computer technologies developed in the Inner Sphere, and thus may not install C3 or Improved C3 Computers or their corresponding Slave units. However, some AutoMech-specific Design Quirks—such as Team-Coded—may offer vaguely similar capabilities (see AutoMech-Unique Design Quirks).
• Physical Attack Weapons – All ’Mech- and vehicle-based physical combat weapons featured in TechManual and Tactical Handbook are available to the AutoMechs of Syberia, regardless of when they were introduced. For whatever reason (likely their own amusement), the creators of these machines devised the whole spectrum of fun melee weapons, even though the rest of the Inner Sphere would not see such items until the late 3050s or later.
AutoMech-Unique Design Quirks: A few new Design Quirks are available to AutoMechs only, with most reflecting their unique programming and engineering. These include the following:
• Code-Bonded: This unit is more dependent on direct orders from a superior unit, to which it has been digitally bonded. A Code-Bonded unit may not willingly operate father than 100 kilometers from its master unit (or 1,000 kilometers if the both the Code-Bonded unit and its master are airborne).
• Team-Bonded: Units that are Team-Bonded are highly coordinated with others in their team. Team-Bonded units gain a –1 target number bonus to all Skills when operating within 10 kilometers of another active member of their designated team. If all members of the team are within 10 kilometers of a Team-Bonded unit, this bonus becomes –2. Up to six units may be Team-Bonded to each other.
• Abnormal Conversion: This convertible unit is arranged to change forms differently from the norm. Components of a unit with this Quirk thus do not follow the same Firing Arcs and Hit Locations Table normally indicated by their form. Instead, one (or more) pairs of body locations trade places on the corresponding Firing Arc and Hit Locations tables when the AutoMech assumes its alternate form. The traded locations must be noted in the Quirk. (For example, the Tanker AutoMech swaps its right torso and its right arm locations in its Tracked mode, which makes its right arm its right side in vehicle mode, while its right torso gains the turret firing arc.)
• Semi-Quad: This Quirk is for Bestial units whose quadruped modes aim to mimic the traits of a biped without actually being one (such as those with a more simian or saurian style). Units with this Quirk still follow the movement rules and restrictions for Quad ’Mechs while in their four-legged mode, but lose the ability to execute rearward kick attacks (the “mule-kick”), but gain the ability to execute a Punch attack with an additional +1 to-hit modifier. If this Punch attack fails, however, the bestial ’Mech must make an immediate Piloting Skill check (applying the same +1 target number modifier) to prevent falling. Note that this Quirk does not enable the AutoMech to use any arm-mounted melee weapons in the process.
Okay. So.....
I have only 7 tons to play with for Blackout's weaponry. (He's 35 tons, maxed armor, and has a 3/5/3V [5/8 in VTOL form].) To reflect his rotor when used as a weapon--which is not always the case--I actually thought I'd have some fun and opt for the industrial Combine at 2.5 tons and 4 crits. (A retractable blade is an alternative, weighs the same, and takes up one less crit, but doesn't go spinny-spinny.) The rest of his weapons are currently 3 ERMLs and a pair of RL-10s.
Thoughts?
- Herb
I don't know why either, but okay....
I could, but it feels like cheating. Then again, the entire premise of the Syberian robots is a cheat. But, looking over these designs, I have to say that far too many would flop if I tried to fix their functionality legally (where did I get the impression that 1 Improved Jump Jet delivered 2 Jump MP?)
After a while, it really wasn't, which is why I abandoned it. Well, that, and it was about the time I started actually writing for BattleTech professionally. Since then, I've been more of a proponent for faster-play systems and would likely end up creating a game system closer to Alpha Strike.
- Herb
I think I'd go with the Combine. Either that of a small Vibrosword fluffed to have it spinning. It's .5 tons heavier though so something else would have to give.
Not really. AutoMechs are a bit more advanced than QuadVees after all. They don't pay tonnage for their motive systems. So why shouldn't Improved Jump Jets be a bit improved over IS versions? I haven't looked at all of them but it does look like you've kept the Jump MP/Safe Thrust to the Mech's Running MP.
The Seekers only have 4 Improved Jump Jets for 8 Jump//Thrust points, takig 8 crits and 4 tons. I also seem to remember you capping the Jump/Thrust/Cruise MP at the Running MP when I asked about WiGE Mechs so that odd MPs couldn't be used. If I've got that right, a Mech with a Walk/Run of 6/9 using IJJ would be capped at 4 IJJ with 8 MP because 10 would exceed the Running MP. So Syberian IJJ would be an improvement but also a limitation.
But the fix below is good too. :thumbsup: Actually, since some TFs are supposed to be really fast this helps them. At least it helps FighterMechs. WiGEMechs still seem awfully slow.
It would be a pain trying to figure out which mech gets what hit chart. Especially since a lot depends on cockpit location.
I can understand wanting faster game play but I haven't been able to get into Alpha Strike. I've wondered about playing with how heat is handled to cut that part out but never got the details fully workout out.
I like the fixes and the new quirks. I really like the Abnormal Conversion Quirk. I was wondering how to make TFs/GBs with motive systems in their torsos when the rules put them in the arms and legs.
Couple silly questions that popped into my head. Can JJs be mounted in the Arms for a JJ Punch?
Are Mechanical Jump Boosters available to Non-Converting AutoMechs? Either the TacHandbook or the TacOps versions?
Partial Wings?
Would the Humans of Syberia have had AutoMechs with a cockpit system once upon a time? Like a Command Console or Dual Cockpit to take over incase the Drones had a problem during their development? Something that would have fallen into disuse once the Drones were perfected and gone extinct along with the Humans?
Since some items can only be used in a single mode, how firm is the rule prohibiting items that can't be used by BattleMechs, IndustrialMechs, and AerospaceFighters and the rule prohibiting items with crits in more than one location?
I was just wondering about putting a Satellite Imager or Look Down Radar in a FighterMech that's only usable in FighterMode or putting Chameleon Light Polarization Shield a anAutoMech that's only usable in mech mode.
Not sure if this goes here but I was thinking about Hound, if Recon Cameras are .5 tons and Searchlights are .5 tons, how heavy would Projectors and Holoprojectors be?
Yeah, the Combine being used to represent a spinning rotor weapon would be fluffed that way. But the alternative is not giving him a physical combat weapon at all and using that tonnage to give him proper SRMs. Blackout doesn't ALWAYS use the rotor, after all.
Well, the backstory is that the Syberians managed to develop a convincing fake with their AIs, but one that was good enough to automate pretty much everything that moves (and more than a few that don't), without delving into the robotics rules as they were in IO. As for the motive system weights, bear in mind that AutoMechs with vehicular modes pay 15% for conversion equipment. That would include the wheels and tracks and such as well...of course, that too is inferior to the Standard LAM/QuadVee systems, which only run 10%, so... My only problem is that I'm basically patching up my own mistake here with the jump jets by changing the rules for the improved jets. Either way, I did it, so...
Ahyup. My change merely makes each Improved Jump Jet (now called a Jump Rocket) capable of delivering 2 MPs per jet. They otherwise work like Improved Jets in that they weigh twice as much as standard jets, take up 2 slots each, generate double heat when used, and can be used to provide up to the unit's Running MP in Jumping MP. As IJJs work under the rules, you need 4 IJJs to get 4 Jump MPs; in my change for Jump Rockets, you would get 8 Jump MPs from 4 Jump Rockets.
I've allowed the WiGEMechs to use Jump Rockets as well, but truth be told, I can't think of a single Transformer that would become a WiGE. And so it's unlikely the Syberians have any at all.
Right. And my rules allowed designers to put the cockpit in any torso or head location. It got messy.
Weird that your idea of a fix for Alpha Strike is to take out a core mechanic of the base game.
For the most part, I'm making my AutoMechs with the standard rules, regardless of part locations, but the Warpath conversion was an extreme departure that demanded a special variance.
Nope. That's too silly for me.
Yes. They came into use in 3060.
For Battle Armor, yes. But not for 'Mechs.
It's unknown. The humans of Syberia are long gone, and no examples of such tech appear to have survived to present day.
The rule there is that, unless specifically noted otherwise (typically for Aerefighter AutoMechs), industrial items that are allowed on Mechs, or which are allowed in the Mech's alternate mode, can be mounted. Since the convertible AutoMech's various hit locations assume their respective vehicle's hit locations, the item would need to conform to its legal hit locations. IOW, if you wanted to have a bulldozer in vehicle mode, you could only mount it in a front side hit location, so the Mech--which normally cannot mount a bulldozer blade--would have to install the blade in a location that becomes the vehicle's front side.
And the ban on multi-location items other than the unit's own conversion equipment is absolute.
I have at least one unit with a satellite imager that can only be used in its flight mode. It's intended function is that of an orbiter unit. So that's okay. But the Chameleon LPS is out, sorry.
Guess it depends on what you're holo-projecting. AToW has weights for holo-projectors from 2kg for a "holomap" to 2 tons for a "holotank."
- Herb
Don't QuadVees pay 10% for their conversion systems and 10%-15% for their wheeled or tracked motive systems? ???
They're probably aren't any Transformers that became WiGEs. WiGEs aren't that know of. Most probably get confused as Hovers or Airplanes. There's even a few that can fly like Airplanes so I'm not sure what they're really classified as. I could see Brainstorm as one of those though going by the newer toy being a redeco of Blurr.
I don't have a problem with putting the cockpit in the head or any torso location. I can see it getting messy though not so much because of the cockpit but where the head is located.
That's cool. I like that there's extreme departures though. :thumbsup:
Don't know why. It'd just be a mega flamer. Rocket Fists that return would be silly. :D
Very cool. :thumbsup: Aw. Poor Mirage. Can't turn invisible. :thumbsup:
I was thinking projecting other units, building or fake terrain as visual Ghost Targets. ECM and Com Equipment can generate sensor ghosts. What about making a visual one for cameras or the eyeball?
Yup.
- Herb
Type: VeeMech
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 60
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 6
Conversion Eqpt: Wheeled 9
Engine: 180 7
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Wheeled Cruise MP: 4
Wheeled Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 200 12.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 20 25
Center Torso (rear) 14
R/L Torso 14 20
R/L Torso (rear) 8
R/L Arms 10 20
R/L Legs 14 28
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Conversion Gear RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
Wheels RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
3 Double Heat Sinks RT/2LT 9 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Common Configuration A
Mace RA 6 6
Ultra AC/5 RT 5 9
Ammo (UAC/5) 20 RT 1 1
CASE RT 1 0.5
Medium Shield LA 5 4*
Common Configuration B
ER PPC RA 3 7
Fluid Gun RA 2 2
Streak SRM-4 RT 1 3
Ammo (Streak SRM 4) 25 RT 1 1
CASE RT 1 0.5
Beagle Active Probe CT 2 1.5
Ammo (Fluid) 60 LT 3 3
CASE LT 1 0.5
Fluid Gun LA 2 2
Maintainer Configuration
Large Laser RA 2 5
Spot Welder RA 1 2
TAG RT 1 1
Guardian ECM Suite RT 2 1.5
Beagle Active Probe CT 2 1.5
Cargo (5 tons) LT 5 5
Salvage Arm LA 2 3
Rivet Gun LA 1 0.5
Ammo (Rivet Gun) 300 LA 1 1
Striker Configuration
LB 10-X AC RA 6 11
Ammo (LB 10-X) 20 RA 2 2
Streak SRM 4 RT 1 3
Ammo (Streak SRM 4) 25 RT 1 1
CASE RT 1 0.5
Streak SRM 4 LT 1 3
Notes: No turret in Vehicle Mode; Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, BattleMech/Wheeled Vehicle Conversion). Battle Fists, Improved Communications, Jettison-Capable Weapon (Right Hand; Exception: Maintainer Configuration), Protected Actuators, Rugged (2), Trailer Hitch (Vehicle Mode Only);* Medium Shield reduces this unit’s Walk/Cruise MPs by 1.
Credit: Giovanni Blasini, for the Hounder chassis design upon which this is based
Notable VeeMechs:
VeeMech Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Aider-Vee-P Maintainer DoctorMech Reg (5/3) Technician – ’Mech Wolverine/MASH Vehicle*
Brawny Common (B) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Wolverine/Striker
Ferro-Vee Common (B) ArtilleryMech Elt (0/0) Infantry, Officer Wolverine/MASH Vehicle*
Wrenchit Maintainer DoctorMech Vet (2/1) Tech–’Mech, Officer Wolverine/MASH Vehicle*
Vee-Picker Striker SpecMech Vet (2/1) Special Forces Wolverine/Light SRM
Vee-Back Common (A) ReconMech Reg (4/3) Scout Wolverine/Striker
Bulk-Vee Common (A) ArtilleryMech Reg (5/4) Infantry Wolverine/Striker
*Shortened vehicle form
I'm more interested to know if his "kitchen" will be seeing time on the table top now... :D
...Whose? Mine? I'm honestly been remodeling my kitchen a little. New floor. New trim. Refreshing the paint... But I ran out of steam just as I was starting to paint the walls.Of course yours, good sir! What lies beneath that veneer you're working on... perhaps a transforming robot? :D
- Herb
I have doubts I'd mention this but I'll throw this out. Headmasters.
Only that I don't think they'd be needed. Syberian wise I'd think they be excellent to getting into narrow spaces, but these are essentially drones and not main brains of the body running around. Exploring human ruins essentially or sneaking into enemy facilities.
*checks* Hah! Shows how long it's been for me that I forgot the rules *I* wrote. Of course, one could argue that this was done to make them about equal in spent tonnage to LAMs, which need to buy their jump jets. Or it could be argued that it was an indication of their prototypical nature. *shrug* Either way; one more indication of how our Syberian AutoMechs are just different.
You *really* want Brainstorm to be something unique there, don't you?
Well, again, the system I was working on was ultimately abandoned. But, TBH, it was also made complex to cover the fact that I was going to be using it to make Mech types created by a host of alien races, including quite a few who didn't conform to standard humanoid body plans.
Of course. It adds a level of uniqueness. But it's also a Quirk that can be abused with overuse, so I intend to use it VERY sparingly. Otherwise it's that old case of "when everyone's special, then no one is."
Rocket punches generally include the mass of the fist being shot at someone. Hand actuators may be one of the most sophisticated bits of tech on a BattleMech after the fusion engine and DI Computers; using them like warheads is just throwing resources away, especially when you can accomplish much the same with a missile launcher.
Yeah, I know. But, alas, that's a core part of convertible Mech design. Mirage--err, Sensor Ghost--thus had to make do with an ECM. (Remember, though; AutoMechs rely primarily on their sensors, not simple video. ECM is very much an invisibility cloak to them on some scans.)
Fake visuals would be doable, I suppose, but at larger scales, you're talking larger gear, so I would probably represent those as 2-ton holoprojectors, if I were to use them. But again, see my statement above about how AutoMechs are primarily reliant on their sensor suites to know what's real and what's not. Mere visual tricks may not fool them.
- Herb
And there! Aside from 12 large units, including 2 Mobile Structures, a large aircraft carrier, and 9 DropShips, I have finished statting out just under 250 AutoMechs of varying classes, sources, and alternate modes.
I thank everyone who contributed ideas and input!
Maybe I'll get back to painting my kitchen now...
- Herb
Sure.
Meet, the VeeMech!
The way I'd approach them, there are no Headmasters, Targetmasters, or Powermasters as such, nor are there 3+-Changers, or Combiners. For me, that would just push things too far from what ultimately is a BattleTech-rooted re-imagining of the Transformers property here. And so, here is how I'd delve/have delved into these concepts:
looking it up.. Brainstorm (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Brainstorm_(G1)) doesn't look much like a WIGE. too little wing surface. his profile looks like a BT Stuka (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Stuka) or maybe a Visigoth (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Visigoth).. long narrow, with canards and small aft mount wings.
for a WiGE you need lots of wing surface.
Maybe the newer one since is shares so much in common with others. I'd make the G1 Brainstorm a FighterMech.
That's cool. Plus a Mirage with those systems could be a non-converting AutoMech.
That's cool. I was thinking, in part, that AutoMechs would see ECM was a trick if they switched to visuals or had ECCM going, so this would be a way to completely trick them. Or at least make them question themselves. I was also thinking about using noncombat tech for combat. Humans use visuals more so seeing something that isn't there would be as bad as not seeing something that is, or making something look like something else.
What color are you painting it?
I'd rather be painting and remodeling anything than dealing with the problems I've got right now. Even doing this :bang: would be more fun but I'd probably break the wall and I've got enough headaches and stress already. :'(
After thinking about it, I can see tiny AutoMechs taking advantage of vehicle forms. These would be like Wheelie. Tiny drone, tiny vehicle. I can't really see this working for Cassettes, Headmasters, or Powermasters though. Their alt-form would be an emplacement?
I also think most MiniCons would probably work better as full sized AutoMechs but it'd depend on the drone. I don't think there'd be any "special powers" granted to the bigger drone, outside of being in the bubble of whatever equipment/weapons the little drone is carrying.
TargetMasters I can see as a way to have handheld guns without the extra weight of heat sinks. The only issues are if you can build a 1-3 ton GunMech, why not a 20 ton GunMech? and how would GunMechs weighing 4-9 tons be built? Protos aren't available. So, I'm not sure about it.
I think bonding, like a C3 system, works better than physically combining. Doesn't mean a big Drone couldn't be made to look like they had been made up of smaller ones though.
3+ so each alt mode would have a different DroneMech to go with it? That or a really heavy conversion system?
Pretenders; I'm glad they're not included. At least the "shells" aren't. They don't really fit with BT. Plus, they'd have to be limited to small BA Drones (PA/ES) if they wanted to pass for Humans. I'm going to guess that even if they did exist at one time, they've gone extinct now along with the Humans they were pretending to be.
No doubt. Glitterboy's suggestion of the Stuka for the alt mode was a perfect choice, I think.
...*sigh* So, I'm designing more, huh?
If you prioritized those features over transformation, yeah, we could make a non-transforming Sensor Ghost.
To be honest, this veers toward the fun bit of how sensors in BT are so comprehensive that there really is no such thing as an invisibility field for Mechs short of the standing still while using the Chameleon/Null-Sig System combo (or standing still with an active Void-Sig System). Magscan and radar are blocked by ECM, IR is blocked by stealth armors. And visuals are fooled by camouflage systems and mimetics...but nothing blots out the seismics of a moving BattleMech. Heck, visual camos really just produce a stealth modifier, as they're more or less like the Predator's cloaking field, which still produces a rippling and lensing effect. (This is why the Void-Sig is easier to target for conventional infantry than for any other unit types.)
...I have no idea where I was going with this, really.
Mostly a shade of blue so light that it looks almost white, with white baseboards and white ceiling. The flooring is a laminate designed to resemble bleached wood.
Sorry to hear that, bud. Hope it's nothing too serious and that things get better for you over there.
In the case of our Syberians, they couldn't develop a practical conversion system that works on anything smaller than a BattleMech. Since every one of the Cassettes and *-master units is 5 tons or less, I translated them to their most useful form, which also happens to be the one that can move on its own.
Historically, most Minicons were depicted as being at or just over human-size, so I'd stick with the automated battle armor our IE friends are now calling "MiniMechs".
If I were to introduce handheld weapons into Syberia's mechanoid eco-system, I'd leave them "brainless." But it COULD be fun if one of the battle armor-based "Target Masters" could operate them as up-scaled towed guns.
Sure, it can LOOK like it, but mechanically, it'd be one unit in each form.
It depends on the unit, but generally, a triple-plus changer on Syberia would translate to two-plus AutoMechs, each representing a different alt mode, with the transformable ones having variations on the same robot mode. (And I likely wouldn't even do a bunch of the more ridiculous modes, because I found too many just...sucked.)
LONG extinct. If they ever existed. But I'm not sure there is anything in BT lore to suggest that they ever had robots or androids that could truly mimic a natural human appearance. So I'm thinking a definite no-go there. As you mention, though, the organic parts were shells; the robots inside tended to be more conventionally Transformer-ish. So it's possible to bring the Pretenders in as regular ol' Transforming AutoMechs.
- Herb
I'm not looking for an invisibility field. I am looking to explore all the options to trick sensors though. Using projectors seems like one way of tricking visuals. It wouldn't be perfect though. 2D aren't as likely to be noticed during the day. There's also a chance that 2D and 3D could be tracked back to their source, especially at night. Still, they could work. They'd be distracting if nothing else.
I wonder if putting big speakers on the ground or using pile drivers could help mask a mech's steps. Not make it invisible. Just harder to detect.
Thanks. :) Unfortunately, I don't have money for a engine or the three weeks it'd take to replace it. :'( I'm also in the middle of nowhere so walking isn't practical. It'd be real nice if things got better in a hurry.
Some do look like they'd be good MiniMechs. I like some of the vehicle modes though so whether or not it's a Mini or full size Mech would depend on the MiniCon.
Wouldn't brainless non converting handheld weapons be available to Syberians as the SLDF was using them? Having MiniMechs firing Field Guns would be fun. There were play sets that could represent that. I was thinking the converting ones. AutoMech carries them into battle firing then drops them to use onboard weapons. Then the "guns" convert and attack on their own. But if GunMechs can't be made that small then only 100 ton and heavier AutoMechs could use them. Oh well. :)
I can't think of any human looking androids either. Probably the closest would be to use the best prosthetics possible. Basically a Cyborg with an AI for a brain. That or their humanness is a hologram. I can't see them surviving long after the humans either. They'd stick out, get captured, and then destroyed. So I think Pretenders would be out. Not the inner TF. Just the shell part. I normally played with mine that way anyway. :)
Oh, to be sure! I'd say they'd be just as distracting to the AutoMechs of Syberia as they would to human-piloted 'Mechs.
If nothing else, it would definitely serve as a kind of seismic white noise generator.
Exactly. We'd have to handle them on an individual basis, and choose the modes that are coolest.
Yeah, sorry. Come to think of it, a field gun is basically a handheld weapon without armor, so I can see Syberian AutoMechs alternating between letting MiniMechs operate them as Field Guns, and having AutoMechs grab them and fire them like regular weapons.
Heh. You know, it would probably take only a small bit of programing to alter a battlesuit-mounted Camo System to create a human-like virtual skin. I'd have it look all video-gamey, and it would look even weirder as it won't hide the suit's actual shape beneath. Instead it looks more like someone just painted an unmodified battlesuit to look like a human, and everyone agreed to just go along with it like nothing was wrong.
I never got any Pretenders, but weren't those shells basically like Kinder eggs, anyway? No articulation at all, just a human/monster-shaped sarcophagus the Transformer burst out of?
- Herb
I had one. And pretty much. It had rotatable arms but that was it. The toy inside was much more fun to play with.
Sounds like the Cobra S.N.A.K.E. Suits, too. Talk about your original Battle Armor...
Sounds cool. How many MiniMechs would it take to operate Field Guns?
Yeah, I can see that happening. Looks like a person with bits of BA sticking out here and there. Maybe a glitch or two in the projection.
Virtual camo system to mimic a human, is that the equivalent of Syberian-cosplay? ;D. Are we gonna discuss cultural aspects of the Syberians now? ;D
I remember those. :) They had this rubber skeleton thing that the legs and body would close around if you weren't putting it over an action figure. Those are old but I liked them more than those suits seen in the movie. xp
Sounds like something I'll have to make rules for. I'm going (for the moment) with 1 per 4 tons of weapon weight, rounded normally. The suits MUST be humanoid-type. They cannot jump and are limited to 1 MP/turn while carting a field gun around. Finally, a BA unit with a field gun cannot engage in antiMech attacks or use any suit-mounted weapons in the same turn it fires its field gun.
More like a human skin stretched to the point of nightmares over a battlesuits armor plates, while each unarmored joint is conspicuously apparent as they don't have the same mimicry features as the armored shell. Probably would resemble those low-polygon 3D characters from games like the first Tomb Raider.
I can't think of a legitimate reason they'd keep using it once they realized the humans were gone. But they DO get randomized personality quirks, and so some might try it. But as it only works on the battle armored units or non-transforming AutoMechs, that's about the limits of their cosplay ability. Well, I mean, that and customized parts and paint work. They can easily cosplay each other, after all, especially if they have a matching body type to their subject.
It would be less a culture, though, and more of a personality quirk, to them. Their pseudo-cultures are more or less chains of command. (I know you were likely kidding, Luciora, but if we've demonstrated anything from having this discussion, it's that some jokes are fun as hell to explore in depth.)
- Herb
I know I'm dragging in the series that should not be mentioned, but programming for some, especially the cassette types (Glit, Sundor, Roseanna) did include entertainment, so...it may not be so far fetched, assuming a player would want to go there.
*But probably not :))*
Sounds good. May I suggest they only have 1 Ground MP while using Field Guns? If they abandon the guns they can move normally.
Yeah. I can see it being all pixely. My first thought reading this was the Alien Roach in the Edgar Suit in MiB. ;D
Didn't they do that in the cartoon/anime? Dress up like each other?
Fan funding for the Celerity can't come soon enough.
Why that one?
- Herb
No. You have an absolutely valid point there, and it is effectively one of those things I can definitely see happening with the Syberian AutoMechs. With some forms being very questionable in nature, the possibility is certainly there that some of the AutoMech types we see today began their existence as entertainment machines. In Transformers Animated, the Dinobots were the result of the Allspark bringing to life some animatronic dinosaurs that were meant to be part of a theme park. I see that as definitely happening here, at least among some factions. (Glitterboy's approach to the Maximals of Beast Wars has their AutoMechs starting their lives as security for a special eco-zone; I see the Predacon analogs as an attempt to make a monster-themed adventure park. The Junkion faction is just a resource-collection and recycling operation. All of them militarized when the last wars started, but what they were meant for, and how they were meant to behave, likely still exist in the depths of their programming.)
Although the humans died off in the Syberia system, the presence of their machines still manufacturing, harvesting resources, and fighting today suggests that a lot of automated industry remained operational. And we've seen indications that the AutoMechs have a deep desire for their humans to return, despite not being truly sentient; their logic centers are coded around the very notion that there are humans, somewhere, who could outrank and command them. That they all appear to have ended up militarized in some way doesn't actually erase what they were at the start, and it's almost a certainty that other aspects of human culture and entertainment yet survive in the ruins. Machines once coded for entertainment value could absolutely exist, their codes just waiting for an opportunity to surface that has been exceedingly rare since the human extinction.
That goes without saying.
Yeah, but far less convincing as it amounts to electronic "paint" rather than skin. Imagine it like when someone uses a movie projector and stands in front of it; only the projected image in this case actively follows every move the person makes.
There were a couple in which they donned disguises, but, hey, this is a BattleTech-themed reimagination exercise. It's doubtful the AutoMechs will be anywhere near as goofy.
- Herb
Just my preferred choice for the 4 legged chassis and I feel would be a good base for Ravage for example.
Yeah, I can see AutoMechs continuing to keep and use noncombat and even nonmilitary programming in case their Humans ever come back.
Nine. Nine new designs to come up with, after I integrated the G1 Headmasters and Targetmasters, and Beast Machines.
And a bunch more characters who fell into extant models.
- Herb
I don't remember seeing the stats for Arcee and other like.
Can you assist. Its the only one from that set that I don't have a record sheet for.
Type: Sneaker
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 30
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 3
Conversion Eqpt: Wheeled 4.5
Engine: 150 5.5
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Wheeled Cruise MP: 6
Wheeled Flank MP: 9
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 96 6
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 8
Center Torso 10 13
Center Torso (rear) 7
R/L Torso 7 9
R/L Torso (rear) 5
R/L Arms 5 10
R/L Legs 7 10
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Conversion Gear RL/LL 2 0
Wheels RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
4 Double Heat Sinks 2RT/2LT 12 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Striker Configuration A
Small Vibroblade RA 3 3
2 ER Small Lasers CT 2 1
2 ER Medium Lasers LA 2 2
Striker Configuration B
Streak SRM 2 RA 1 1.5
Ammo (Streak SRM 2) 50 RA 1 1
Beagle Active Probe CT 2 1.5
2 ER Medium Lasers LA 2 2
Communicator Configuration
Medium Pulse Laser RA 1 2
Small Laser RT 1 0.5
Communications Equipment RT 3 3
Small Laser LT 1 0.5
Notes: No turret in Vehicle Mode; Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, BattleMech/Wheeled Vehicle Conversion), Compact ’Mech, Improved Communications, Improved Sensors, Low Profile (Vehicle mode only), Modular Weapons, Jettison-Capable Weapons (Hands).
Notable Sneakers:
Sneaker Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Groove-Sneaker Communicator ReconMech AbvAvg (3/2) Scout Hermes*/Centipede*
After-Sneaker Striker (B) ArtilleryMech Vet (3/2) Infantry Hermes*/Centipede*
Green-Sneaker Striker (A) SpecMech Vet (1/0) Scout, Spec Ops Hermes*/Centipede*
Lance-Sneaker Striker (B) SpecMech Vet (2/1) Spec Ops Hermes*/Centipede*
Arc Sneaker Striker (A) NinjaMech Vet (3/0) Infantry-AntiMech Hermes*/Centipede*
*Add 4 wheels (and a left hand, in Mech mode)
Type: Fortress
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 200
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: Superheavy 40
Conversion Eqpt: Emplacement 20
Engine: 200 8.5
Walking MP: 1
Running MP: 2
Jumping MP: 0
Emplacement MP: None
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: Superheavy 4
Cockpit: Superheavy 4
Armor Factor: 600 37.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 4 12
Center Torso 60 60
Center Torso (rear) 60
R/L Torso 42 50
R/L Torso (rear) 34
R/L Arms 33 66
R/L Legs 42 84
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Conversion Equipment RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
2 Double Heat Sinks RT/LT 4 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Common Configuration
ER PPC RA 2 7
2 Double Heat Sinks RA 4 2
Gauss Rifle RT 4 15
Ammo (Gauss Rifle) 32 RT 2 4
Double Heat Sink RT 4 2
Gauss Rifle CT (R) 4 15
Double Heat Sink CT 2 1
2 ER Medium Lasers RL 1 2
Gauss Rifle LT 4 15
Ammo (Gauss Rifle) 32 LT 2 4
2 Double Heat Sinks LT 4 2
2 ER Medium Lasers LL 1 2
2 ER PPCs LA 4 14
Double Heat Sink LA 2 1
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, Biped/Emplacement ’Mech Conversion), Command BattleMech, Difficult to Maintain, Distracting (Massive!), Improved Communications, Improved Sensors, Improved Targeting (All), Multi-Trac, Non-Standard Parts, Oversized, Poor Performance, Protected Actuators, Rugged (2), Searchlight
Notable Fortresses:
Fortress Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Maxim Fortifica Common CommandMech Elt (4/0) Engineer, Officer Jupiter/Buildings (3)*
*Central hex = 2 levels tall (plus Schrek PPC Turret); forward-side hexes = 1 level tall (plus Nuberu Turret), each.
Emplacement AutoMechs: The Firing Arcs Table for Emplacement AutoMechs in their Emplacement mode refers to the hexside relative to the AutoMech’s normal facing, with Front being the hexside directly ahead of the Emplacement AutoMech, and Rear being the hexside directly behind the Emplacement AutoMech. When an Emplacement AutoMech suffers damage in its Emplacement mode, resolve the direction of fire as if the Emplacement AutoMech were a vehicle (evenly distributing the arcs, and allowing the defender’s choice if the attack comes down right on the line between two arcs).
In addition, Emplacement AutoMechs are unique in that their Emplacement Mode actually serves to obstruct line of sight through the hex that they occupy, as if the Emplacement AutoMech were an actual building. Regardless of the Emplacement AutoMech’s size, this Emplacement mode obstruction is treated as a 2-level high structure for line of sight purposes, but cannot be entered or passed through as a building by any unit except for friendly infantry.
Superheavy Emplacement AutoMechs: By dint of their sheer size, Emplacement AutoMechs over 100 tons in size add two adjacent hexes to their footprint while in Emplacement Mode—one to each forward-side facing, relative to the ’Mech’s front side. These hexes are also considered to be structures for line of sight purposes, but stand only 1 level tall. Each represents one of the Emplacement AutoMech’s legs, and may be attacked separately, but only if the attacker can trace a line of sight to them without passing through the central hex. (The central hex otherwise blocks line of sight to the leg hex in question.) Attacks against these “leg hexes” will damage only that leg of the Emplacement AutoMech, so no Hit Location is rolled for any successful attacks delivered to these hexes.
The firing arc for any weapon mounted in the Superheavy EmplacementMech’s leg is treated as a BattleMech’s forward arc, centered on the appropriate leg hex, and facing out from the central hex’s appropriate forward-side. (In other words, the left leg occupies the forward-left adjacent hex, and its weapons face to the AutoMech’s forward-left direction, while the right leg occupies the forward-right adjacent arc and faces to the AutoMech’s forward-right direction.) Needless to say, an Emplacement AutoMech’s leg-mounted weapons may not—and, in fact, cannot—fire through any other hex of its own unit. Likewise, attacks from the Emplacement AutoMech’s central hex may not target the unit’s own leg hexes. The Emplacement AutoMech’s leg hexes do not block line of sight from its central hex in any way.
Won't be possible to just have it as variant of Scorponok, Fort Max needs someone else to "play with".
You also have Omega Supreme, (Guardian Class if you remember the episode where "brother" version of it was seen, resurrected briefly without its head.)
Metroplex would also be one as well, but different role, like out post or something.
I'd thought it would make sense for Fort Max have artillery guns since it's so big.
Type: Fortress
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 200
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: Superheavy 40
Conversion Eqpt: Emplacement 20
Engine: 200 8.5
Walking MP: 1
Running MP: 2
Jumping MP: 0
Emplacement MP: None
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: Superheavy 4
Cockpit: AutoMech 3
Armor Factor: 600 37.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 4 12
Center Torso 60 60
Center Torso (rear) 60
R/L Torso 42 50
R/L Torso (rear) 34
R/L Arms 33 66
R/L Legs 42 84
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Conversion Equipment RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
2 Double Heat Sinks RT/LT 4 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Base Configuration
ER PPC RA 2 7
2 Double Heat Sinks RA 4 2
Gauss Rifle RT 4 15
Ammo (Gauss Rifle) 32 RT 2 4
Double Heat Sink RT 4 2
Gauss Rifle CT (R) 4 15
Ammo (Gauss Rifle) 8 CT 1 1
Double Heat Sink CT 2 1
2 ER Medium Lasers RL 1 2
Gauss Rifle LT 4 15
Ammo (Gauss Rifle) 32 LT 2 4
2 Double Heat Sinks LT 4 2
2 ER Medium Lasers LL 1 2
2 ER PPCs LA 4 14
Double Heat Sink LA 2 1
Assault Configuration
2 ER PPC RA 4 14
Double Heat Sink RA 2 1
Long Tom Artillery Cannon RT 8 20
Ammo (LTAC) 20 RT 2 4
3 Double Heat Sinks CT 6 3
2 Medium Pulse Lasers RL 1 4
Long Tom Artillery Cannon LT 8 20
Ammo (LTAC) 20 LT 2 4
2 Medium Pulse Lasers LL 1 4
2 ER PPCs LA 4 14
Double Heat Sink LA 2 1
Guardian Configuration
4 Snub-Nose PPCs RA 4 24
Double Heat Sinks RA 2 1
LRM 15 RT 2 7
Ammo (LRM-15) 32 RT 2 4
CASE RT 1 0.5
Double Heat Sink RT 2 1
2 ER Large Lasers CT 2 10
2 Double Heat Sinks CT 4 2
2 ER Medium Lasers RL 1 2
LRM-15 LT 2 7
Ammo (Arrow IV) 20 LT 2 4
2 Double Heat Sinks LT 4 2
CASE LT 1 0.5
2 ER Medium Lasers LL 1 2
Arrow IV Missile Launcher LA 8 15
ER Large Laser HD (R) 1 5
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, Biped/Emplacement ’Mech Conversion), Command BattleMech, Difficult to Maintain, Distracting (Massive!), Improved Communications, Improved Sensors, Improved Targeting (All), Multi-Trac, Non-Standard Parts, Oversized, Poor Performance, Protected Actuators, Rugged (2), Searchlight
Credit: Wrangler, for configuration concepts
Notable Fortresses:
Fortress Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Maxim Fortifica Base CommandMech Elt (4/0) Engineer, Officer Jupiter/Buildings (3)*
Sentinel Omega Guardian ArtilleryMech Elt (2/1) Infantry Mackie/Buildings (3)*
Juggernaut Scorpia Assault CommandMech Elt (1/0) Infantry, Officer Jupiter/Buildings (3)*
*Central hex = 2 levels tall (plus Schrek PPC Turret); forward-side hexes = 1 level tall (plus Nuberu Turret), each.
In this set, I gave Arcee (Arc Sneaker) a narrow vehicle form.
Sneaker (Wheeled AutoMech)
And now for something completely frightening...
Fortress (Emplacement AutoMech)
Revised Fortress specs:
Just curious. Why not a Thumper Artillery variant? It's lighter than the Long Tom Artillery Cannon and takes as many slots.
You'd be amazed how much tonnage you can waste on a Superheavy; you can run out of crit space long before you run out of payload weight.
- Herb
Love those super heavies. Want to see ALL of the AutoMechs. Then again I need a miniature "Battletech" sized mini at the same time.
At this point I think my Syberians outnumber my Azur Lane fleet. Although the Dougram and Macross collection still is my most favorite. ;D.
He hasn't posted them here, but Luciora has made a lot miniatures for this Syberian TRO and put them on Sarna.net discord & i think another one as well. Good stuff, Herb! Thank you for taking the time for doing this for us.
I kept thinking mobile structures could be like external fitting for the Superheavy/Fortification. Since they can move and not worry about transforming, while the center controling machine could be the superheavy automech.
I have statted about 200 AutoMechs across about 85 chassis types now, covering all the named characters in the original G1 cartoon, and the US versions of Beast Wars/Beast Machines, plus a few extras. The document is over 105 pages and includes some updated AutoMech construction rules from Welcome to the Nebula California. I started to make a slicker TRO: Syberia, but it's a ways from done and I'm not sure I have the energy for the art.
This is what happens when I really dig into my fun projects... Last time I went this deep, I created a full BattleTech Adventure e-book about the Tetatae.
- Herb
Question; Are the other worlds of the system occupied in some manner? I would imagine they would have colonies since they do have dropships and resources are always needed feed factories.
The Autonomous Barony of Primus
The Autonomous Barony of Primus is the second largest active faction in the Syberia system. (To call them “surviving” groups, after all their human masters died ages ago, seems silly.) Once the heart of a pseudo-feudal alliance of other baronies (including the Dynamic Barony of Grim), its territory stretches across the rubble-strewn badlands between the western coast of the Great Sea and the eastern coast of the Northern Sludge. A combination of natural terrain—namely, the Grim Range and the equatorial Tanglewood Jungles—and the bulk of the DynaBoG state splits the AutoBoP lands into two regions, but it is no stretch to presume that there was once a time when their borders were more contiguous.
The contaminated remains of no less than ten major cities lie within AutoBoP territory, including the partially reconstructed “capital” of Primus itself near Lake Rust. Numerous factory sites, mines, refineries, and the like can be found throughout these regions as well, but many have either fallen to ruin or function at minimal capacity for want of resources. Nevertheless, these production centers are among the most sophisticated of those still found on the planet, which explains how the AutoMechs of this faction can continue to field equipment on par with the late 3050s.
The war machines defending AutoBoP holdings are—outwardly, at least—friendly toward non-aligned parties, and particularly welcoming to humans, but it should be noted that this is not necessarily a unified front. Although they affect a certain degree of nobility and honor in their speech and behaviors, the fact remains that these AutoMechs function in a perpetual state of wartime footing, and it would take little effort to invite their hostilities. Furthermore, while many claim that they are fighting for lofty goals like “freedom from tyranny” and “defending the innocent,” most individual AutoBoP AutoMechs seem hard-pressed to identify exactly what tyranny and which innocents they are talking about. In fact, after years of research in the Syberian system, we believe that the baronial nation states here were every bit as autocratic as the corporate states they came to blows with.
In addition to their main territories on Syberia, AutoBoP holdings are also known to exist on both of Syberia’s moons, as well as the moons of Amnicus, Nimbus, Vectoria, and Tumult.
Brute-Force Industry: The Dynamic Barony of Grim
Named for the mountain range it calls home (which was almost certainly named for its ruling baronial family), the Dynamic Barony of Grim represents the last of Syberia’s neo-feudal powers outside of the Autonomous Barony of Primus itself. Although most of its industry apparently revolved around mining and manufacturing, its wealth and technical capabilities fell short of its AutoBoP neighbors.
When war erupted on Syberia, the DynaBoG leaned into its industrial-grade AutoMechs rather than investing in upgrading their infrastructure to the AutoBoP’s level. With many of their convertible chassis types built to bestial body plans—the better to handle the rocky crags of the Grim Range—they modified their toughest designs with some of the largest weapons and thickest armor in all of the warring armies. For added psychological effect, they gave their AutoMechs more animalistic traits (although not nearly to the extent of creating the synthetic organic skin, fur, and feathers seen in AxiMaL and PresiDom units), and slanted their personality programs to be more aggressive and fearless in battle. The result was a line of towering, heavy weapons platforms that behaved almost as brutish as they looked.
Centuries of chaotic, highly aggressive, and brave-to-the-point-of-suicide personality programs have given DynaBoG’s AutoMechs a reputation for “prideful ignorance,” however. Most of their units tend toward stubbornness, and are more prone to snarling and roaring than engaging in coherent speech. At times, this behavior has proven to be a hindrance to the united baronies’ war effort, as DynaBoG command ’Mechs tend to resist requests from their more articulate allies. Fighting has even broken out between the two factions on several occasions, but only in brief spurts as safeguards against destroying friendly units—a universal feature in Syberian programming—usually kick in before either faction can suffer significant losses.
Interestingly enough, DynaBoG AutoMechs of both military and civil types have been identified elsewhere in the Syberia system, despite their faction’s relatively limited state of technological development. Outside of their Grim Range holdings on Syberia itself, major enclaves of DynaBoG units can be found on Tumult, Surekai, and several moons of Demonia.
The BeastMechs of Axilum
Located in Syberia's southern hemisphere, the bio-dome preserve of Axilum covers a massive canyon similar in many ways to the Valles Marineris on Mars. Syberian conservationists domed over this region and converted it into a nature preserve to shelter a portion of the planet’s pre-colonial ecosystem from human contamination. (In its primitive state of Syberia’s development, it seems, much of its flora and fauna proved entirely too sensitive to the encroachment of humans and their imported animals.) When war spread between the various political and corporate factions, this gigantic zoo and its supporting infrastructure came under the protection of Axilum Management and Logistics (AxiMaL), a semi-neutral agency who quickly supplemented their conventional security forces with AutoMechs.
To police the Axilum preserve with minimal disruption, AxiMaL developed AutoMechs heavily modified to better blend in with the environment. Using synthetic fibers and flexible polymers, they covered their bestial machines with simulated flesh, feathers, scales, and hide, creating the uncanny appearance of (mostly) organic animals. Although mostly styled along the lines of terrestrial creatures and built as compact as possible—an effort that also led to lighter AutoMechs overall—these “BeastMechs” accomplished their tasks as much by dint of their huge size and unnatural features as they did otherwise.
Today, the AxiMaL faction remains one of the smallest and lightest of the active entities on Syberia. Their creators’ emphasis on limited-scale designs has left them deficient, compared to other AutoMechs, in terms of armor and firepower. But this handicap tends to be somewhat offset on how unsettling their organic features are to the planet’s more conventional robots.
The Democratic Industrial Conglomerate
Presently the faction with the largest holdings on Syberia, the Democratic Industrial Conglomerate controls much of Syberia’s northern hemisphere, starting from the northern coastlines of the Great Sea, before crossing over its northeast stretch, then following the vast Valley of Glass to the Southern Sludge. The wreckage of at least sixteen major cities covers much of the DemoCon’s landscape, while numerous semi-active factory sites and assembly plants are known to reside within the foothills of heir mountainous fringes.
Like the AutoBoP faction, the DemoCons possess the most advanced technologies to be found in the Syberia system, but is largely resource starved on their homeworld after centuries of fighting and destruction. However, two neighboring states in the Southern Sludge region—the InterSect Confederation and the Presidential Domains—augment their military might on most battlefronts. These allied powers, we believe, represent the remains of two client states who used to rely on the Conglomerate for much of its proprietary technologies as the war between the baronies and the corporate powers expanded.
To hear the AutoMechs of the AutoBoP faction tell it, the DemoCon is an evil entity, ruled by megalomaniacs bent on system-wide domination—a point proven, they claim, by the “Cons’” far more aggressive stance and ruthless tactics, even against neutrals. But further research, including the recovery of historical data in several abandoned ruin sites, paints a very different picture. If true, these records suggest that the baronial factions, led by Primus, sparked the Syberian wars through decades of increasing economic and political interference—all aimed at bringing the independent corporate powers to heel. It thus may be argued that the DemoCons, and not the AutoBoPs, were the truer champions of “freedom” back when the inevitable fighting started.
Of course, who was right and who was wrong is academic, at best, now that the human populations who controlled the AutoMechs are long dead. After all, in the absence of human intent, can either of these robotic factions truly be considered evil?
Beyond their holdings on Syberia, the DemoCon faction also lays claim to enclaves and outposts on Ash, Tumult, Gaolog, and several of the moons orbiting Nimbus, Demonia, Gaolog, and Omnikra.
The Inter-Sect Swarm
The Inter-Sect Confederation (InterSectCon) is one of the more enigmatic of the Syberian AutoMech factions (if not the most enigmatic). Judging by their faction’s name, and the remains of numerous cathedral-style structures in their bombed-out cities, their masters were neither baronial nor corporate in nature, but instead anchored their society around a host of religious agencies. How this worked exactly—if it was a true theocracy, or more of a collective of faiths united under an alliance of mutual respect—is still unknown.
Also unknown is exactly why their AutoMech forces appear to be filled out exclusively by industrial-grade bestial models designed to resemble gigantic insects in both form and function. Adding to the mystery is the fact that only a handful of these units ever seem to speak at all; of those few that do so, practically all tend to favor a form of broken English in which words are frequently repeated and strangely distorted. The combined result of these quirks of form and behavior effectively enhances the sense that these AutoMechs are navigated by some other-worldly, hive-like intelligence. This could all just be a planned side-effect of some psychological warfare strategy their creators embraced, of course—but it is just as likely that these bug-like robots simply prefer radio communication to voice-casting, and probably do so using machine code instead of any human language.
The InterSectCon holdings on Syberia are scarcely larger than those of the AxiMaL’s bio-dome region, and is largely covered in desert badlands and patchy savannahs that surround the flattened remains of at least nine major population centers. No functional factory sites have been spotted in this region, but the close alliance with the DemoCons has seen InterSect units working at virtually every off-world DemoCon enclave. It is therefore surmised that the continuous replenishment of their combat losses comes from production centers beyond the Syberian atmosphere. Additional “nests” of InterSectCom AutoMechs have also turned up on the inmost world of Junc over the last few decades, apparently. This relatively recent encroachment has naturally brought them into regular conflict with the JUniCom faction, and may be one major reason the JUniComs are so permissive of the AutoBoP forces that periodically visit their world to deal with them.
The Monstrosities of the Presidential Domains
Early observations concluded that the advanced bestial-styled AutoMechs of the Presidential Domains (PresiDom) faction were modeled after the similar machines fielded by the AxiMaL group, and therefore posited that this was done for similar reasons. Coupled with the nearby presence of the larger, but less sophisticated, insect-AutoMechs of the Inter-Sect Confederation, it was thus presumed that a Axilum-style bio-dome must have once existed on or around the Southern Sludge, which both minor factions still border. But if such a preserved habitat ever existed, its remains have never been found.
What has been spotted—admittedly from a distance—are the ruins of several cities and coastal sites that heavily feature residences, visiting centers, casinos, and parks. Amid this wreckage are signs of artwork, sculptures, murals, and the like, all of fantastical nature. Taken together with the outlandishly distorted bestial forms of their dominant AutoMechs, and the lack of apparent wildlife reservations anywhere nearby, our theory is that the PresiDom was a state that devoted much of its economy to exotic tourism. And that their star attractions were likely beast ’Mechs of their own making.
If this is true, it essentially follows that the autonomous war machines of this nation likely began their existence as sophisticated animatronics—robotic entertainment meant to resemble organic monstrosities of legend and fable more than any real-world animal kind. As war overtook their world, the PresiDom then followed the same path to militarization as their AxiMaL neighbors, and modified these designs for combat.
The PresiDom’s beast ’Mechs share many features in common with those of the AxiMaL, with many (but not all) using similar outer coverings meant to simulate hide, fur, and scales. But where AxiMaL’s AutoMechs were deliberately built to compact forms as a means of minimizing their impact on the Axilum bio-domes, the PresiDom’s more fantastical design aesthetics have resulted in bigger and heavier models.
Repair, Reuse, Recycle: The Joint Unifications Committee
Officially neutral in the system-wide conflict between Syberia’s baronial and corporate alliances, the Joint Unifications Committee (JUniCom) faction ostensibly lays claim to the entirety of the system’s innermost planet, Junc, but is welcoming to any visitor that doesn’t fire on them. It is unclear what type of polity this group was supposed to be when it was formed. Its awkward name suggests a government agency, but its robotic leftovers behave more like they were part of some commercial endeavor.
An airless and water-barren planet, Junc is roughly two-thirds the size of Syberia, with mean surface temperatures north of 250C. Human habitation on Junc is thus impossible without sealed, climate-controlled environmental technology, and some means of producing or importing potable water. Complicating this are higher-than-average concentrations of heavy metals and radioactives that make even sub-surface dwellings a risky proposition. Still, some evidence suggests that humans did once live here, likely in spacecraft hulls repurposed to serve as long-term habitats. Unfortunately, this evidence lies somewhere in the endless heaps of scrapped and contaminated metals that the local AutoMechs salvaged after their masters died off.
What facilities are left standing on Junc are a mix of mining and drilling rigs, ore processing and smelting centers, repair shops and fabricators. The majority of these have been devoted toward the production and maintenance of industrial, military, and aerospace technologies, and all of them are completely automated or crewed by specialized AutoMechs.
Since the loss of their human creators, the JUniCom AutoMechs have carried on with their primary mission of harvesting their planet for all the industrial resources it’s worth, only to stack much of the refined product in warehouses and fields all over the place. Numerous unmanned spaceports function as commercial centers for visiting traders, most of which either hail from the AutoBoP and DynaBoG factions, or are unaffiliated. Even the normally hostile DemoCons have managed to deal with the JUniCom, so long as they keep their weapons lowered. InterSectCom “swarms” that turned up on this world in the last few decades may, in fact, be the only foreigners the JUniCom consider entirely unwelcome; clashes between the two groups are frequent.
(Curiously, while the JUniCom have their own interplanetary craft, their travel and trading habits seem entirely homebound by default. JUniCom DropShips are such a rare sight anywhere beyond Junc’s gravity well that even the AutoBoP leadership can’t seem to recall the last time one visited Syberia.)
Most JUniCom AutoMechs look as though they have themselves been assembled from salvaged materials, and it was not uncommon to witness some of the shoddier models breaking down under even the most mundane of tasks—only to pop their broken parts back into place and carry on as if nothing happened. Equally disorienting is how much of a challenge these robots are to converse with, as many demonstrate a fragmented style of speech and data processing comparable to severe software corruption. Indeed, many times in our discussions with them, even the highest-ranked JUniCom AutoMechs have digressed into random bouts of song and dramatic quotes from what sound like old holovids or novels. But if their electronic brains are faulty in some way, it does not appear to affect their understanding and skill with technological systems, which seems to rival the best AutoBoP CraftsMechs. We have seen them restore machines to “life” that any Inner Sphere army would pass over as unrecoverable, and one JUniCom even performed maintenance on our Union’s landing struts that corrected balance issues we’ve dealt with since we bought the thing some fifty years ago.
Why? ??? Syberian Improved Jump Jets don't have to be the same as IS versions.
Isn't the LAM's jump jets essentially Improved Jump Jet's for conventional 'mechs?
Syberian Technology Base
The technology base used by the Syberian AutoMechs is roughly equal to that of the Inner Sphere in 3060. Any technology with an introduction date of 3060 or sooner is thus available for AutoMech use, unless it is specifically restricted by the rules below. (Note that even though Syberia may have been colonized prior to 2765, we’re just going to presume that either the AutoMechs’ original creators survived long enough to assimilate and produce the newer tech items of the Inner Sphere up to 3060. As they are not truly sentient, and are thus incapable of improvising or innovating outside of programmed parameters, it is nigh impossible that the factory drones themselves somehow managed to perfect technologies their human masters could not.)
Exceptions: There following key exceptions to the Syberian technology base apply to the general rules described above:
• Improved Industrial Structure – The Syberians wanted all their AutoMechs to function equally well on Syberia itself as well as in the various hostile environments elsewhere in the Syberian system. This included those units built to industrial standards. Therefore, they developed an improved form of Industrial Structure. Available only to AutoMechs, Improved Industrial Structure (IIS) weighs the same as standard Industrial internal structure and takes up no critical space, with all the associated limitations and rules, but incorporates the environmental sealing modification by default. AutoMechs with IIS thus do not need to spend additional tonnage on environmental sealing in order to function underwater or in hazardous environments like vacuum.
• Jump Rockets – Essentially the Syberian form of the Improved Jump Jet, the Jump Rocket system produces twice the thrust for the same weight and size as an Improved Jump Jet by firing longer bursts through their thrust nozzles—a feature only possible with engines designed for sustained thrust (such as those found on Aerofighter and WiGE units). Jump Rockets follow all the same construction and gameplay rules as an Improved Jump Jet of equal weight, but provides 2 Jump MP per Rocket, rather than 1. Because they are meant specifically for Aerofighter AutoMechs and WiGEMechs, Jump Rockets may not be used with any other unit type.
• C3 Computers – The Syberians never developed an equivalent to the C3 Computer technologies developed in the Inner Sphere, and thus may not install C3 or Improved C3 Computers or their corresponding Slave units. However, some AutoMech-specific Design Quirks—such as Team-Coded—may offer vaguely similar capabilities (see AutoMech-Unique Design Quirks).
• Physical Attack Weapons – All ’Mech- and vehicle-based physical combat weapons featured in TechManual and Tactical Handbook are available to the AutoMechs of Syberia, regardless of when they were introduced. For whatever reason (likely their own amusement), the creators of these machines devised the whole spectrum of fun melee weapons, even though the rest of the Inner Sphere would not see such items until the late 3050s or later.
Oh, and here's some more fun stuff. (Attached.)
[Edit: Map modified with a scale notation.]
- Herb
PLZ NO. Let's try to keep extra tech to a minimum.
No? When they're in 'Mech mode they work just like standard jump jets.
Not sure how I feel about this one, honestly.
I was leaning more towards using a refined version of the Prototype Improved Jump Jet, but I guess this works. What does heat generation look like on these, and how many can you put onto a 'Mech?
Holy crap is this helpful. I don't even have words. Is there a standard legend anywhere to break down the non-blue colors?
This is really fascinating. I love the history background, Herb.
Oh, and here's some more fun stuff. (Attached.)
[Edit: Map modified with a scale notation.]
- Herb
No such thing as too much of that! :D
The Syberia System
Syberia (SLSC A6V.1499-05a), located approximately 1,335 light-years rim-spinward of Terra, is one of several unusual solar systems in the California Nebula Anomalous Zone (CNAZ). Centered on a white, A6IV-class star, it is host to eleven major planetary bodies, of which, it is the fourth that lends its name to the system as a whole. As the only world naturally capable of supporting life—despite widespread, man-made ecological damage, that is—the planet Syberia and its two moons (Syberluna I and II) was, and remains, the heart for all system-wide activities and conflicts. Syberia’s habitability was also the primary reason our original surveys to this system immediately focused on it, rather than any of the other planetary bodies found here.
Well, that, and the detection of active radio emissions from a number of comm-sats in circling the place.
Before delving into Syberia itself, though, a breakdown of the system at large:
Our knowledge of the Syberian system comes from a combination of observations—both direct and indirect—and interviews with the more amenable of its robotic denizens. In one way or another, each of the system’s worlds is host to these “AutoMechs,” with most enclaves originating from the time when their human masters lived among them. Established to explore and exploit resources beyond Syberia itself, many of these sites still function as they did in the centuries before, their mechanical residents continuing to gather materials, manufacture products, and ship them back to their homelands as they did before their eternal war erupted ages ago.
Junc, the innermost planet, is a prime example of this. Lacking air and water, and constantly baked by the intense rays of its sun, the world is covered in mining and processing facilities dutifully tended to by the only major AutoMech faction not openly engaged in hostilities: the Joint Unifications Committee. Though strange in behavior, these machines enthusiastically offer their service to any who visit them under the flag of truce, whereupon their vast stores of both raw material and salvaged junk are made ready for sale or trade.
For the next two worlds, Amnicus and Ash, respectively, only the sturdiest of AutoMechs can survive the hellish atmospheres and crushing gravity well enough to find and gather the heavy metals and rare earth ores that help fuel their own industries. Indeed, between the two planets, only Ash hosts permanent facilities on its surface, controlled mostly by the Democratic Industrial Conglomerate. For Amnicus, the Autonomous Barony of Primus prefers to keep its operations centered on the planet’s sole moon and a cluster of zero-gee refineries at the local LaGrange points.
Syberia and its twin moons lie in an orbit that averages just over five AUs from the sun (and about 33 days from the system’s standard jump points), placing the only naturally habitable planet here close to the outermost edge of the local Goldilocks Zone. Despite this, numerous factors have conspired against this world to keep things hot and dry, including a thin atmosphere with limited oxygen, tainted by toxic particles, and soot ash so ubiquitous as to lower the planet’s overall albedo. Syberia thus almost never sees a flake of snow, even at high altitudes, or in the depths of its local winter, but periodic monsoon seasons and trickling river channels have encouraged the regrowth of inland vegetation nevertheless. In addition to the ashy particles in the atmosphere and sandscapes, of course, signs of the wars that destroyed this planet’s human populace remain evident everywhere, from the wreckage of cities to the tattered ozone layer and severe lack of native fauna.
Five and a half more AUs outward of Syberia is the orbit of Nimbus, the innermost of the system’s four gas giants. On the largest nine of its seventeen natural moons can be found numerous AutoMech-staffed facilities, claimed by both the AutoBoP faction and its DemoCon enemy. Here, high above the swirling purple-gray clouds of the planet below, is where most of the spaceborne fighting between the two factions tends to occur.
Following Nimbus, a celestial tug-of-war rages as the system’s next two gas giants—Vectoria and Demonia—continuously pull the small, icy rock known as Tumult back and forth between them. Over the millions of years, these ringed giants, passing closest to each other every fifty-two years or so, have likely traded moons and other debris back and forth, and might have even snagged Tumult itself from a more outward path. Today, of course, they are joined by the armies of Syberian AutoMechs, who hold outposts and bases on several of the gas giants’ moons—and on the cracked and tortured surface of the world that rocks between them. (As of this writing, in fact, Tumult may be the second-hottest ground-war theater in the system, as the baronial forces of Primus and Grim are constantly challenged there by the DemoCon and its allied states.)
Beyond Vectoria, Tumult, and Demonia are the giant, icy terrestrials known as Surekai and Gaolog. Although much of the metallic resources on these worlds lie buried beneath seas of liquid methane and frozen ammonia-ice, and despite surface gravities of 1.6 and 2.12, respectively, AutoMechs dig and drill for them year after year. Interestingly enough, the intact remains of human habitats have been found on the moons of Gaolog. When asked about these, those AutoMechs who knew of them claimed that these were penal colonies established prior to the start of their war. It was unclear to them, however, what types of crime would merit shipping people to a barren, airless rock on the far end of their solar system, or what such prisoners were expected to do when they got there.
The last planet in the Syberia system, Omnikra, floats so far out from its sun that its vast, gaseous form looks almost ephemeral against the void of space, even on its daylit side. At roughly 200,000 kilometers in diameter, and just massive enough to begin emitting its own infrared light, it can be classed as either a “super-Jupiter” or a T-class brown dwarf, depending on the criteria being used. Six large moons and countless minor moonlets orbit this world, but only two of these are host to AutoMech activities—both claimed by the DemoCon faction.
given i'd written the Axilum as inhabiting a domed over canyon similar to mars's Valles Marineris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Marineris), wouldn't it show up on the map?
that works.
So, bought a Pinto and Jade Hawk. The Jade Hawk is a nice base, but the Pinto mini is flatter than the TRO art leads one to believe, and I was slightly disappointed by it. Its still workable, so I'll see what I can do with it.
The rotor will be repurposed for the mech mode of course.
I do reference IWM first, then Sarna, (even though I have the TROs ;D) so while I do agree on the TRO art of the Pinto, the mini doesn't quite match. Out of the current metal VTOL releases, the majority don't quite have the overall look of the
Pave Low used. I think I did briefly consider the Kestrel, as well as the Cyrano, but the suggested mini was the Pinto, so stuck with that :)
As for starting from a non-vtol.... I'm not *that* good with modding. ;D
As for the partial wings vs rotors, the partial wings are a bit chunkier than what I kind of mentally have envisioned for Blackout, so maybe the Pinto works more in favor of a leaner look.
I know I would love to see a TRO:Syberia book or at least something close to it.
Real Life issues have been getting in the way lately, so I've not been following the BT forums as closely lately. Lemme get caught up.
PLZ NO. Let's try to keep extra tech to a minimum.
No? When they're in 'Mech mode they work just like standard jump jets.
Not sure how I feel about this one, honestly.
I was leaning more towards using a refined version of the Prototype Improved Jump Jet, but I guess this works. What does heat generation look like on these, and how many can you put onto a 'Mech?
No issues here, or with the AutoMech-Unique Design Quirks in the next post. Still getting caught up.
I tend to agree, especially since the net effect of these rules meant to reflect an inferior tech level to the Inner Sphere of 3150. But when I caught my mistakes, I'd built a LOT of units....
Too true.
Yeah, that was simply due to the nuisance of sealing AutoMechs for alternate environments. In theory, they shouldn't have a problem since there are no humans involved, but BT rules really don't leave an "out" for robotics like that, which would mean cutting another 10% of the Industrial-grade AutoMechs' mass to make them vacuum capable. So, instead, I went with what is, in effect, double-weight BattleMech IS, which the Syberians developed specifically for such occasions.
As the text says, they work like improved jump jets, save for the fact that each jump rocket generates 2 Jump MP rather than 1. This means they generate the same heat per jump (2 per Jump MP), and max out at the unit's Running MP. That they also are usable only with Aerofighter and WiGE AutoMechs is meant to be suggestive of their functional roots in aerospace engine thurters, but that's more of a fluffy thing.
Given the planet's heat and water-to-land ratio, the world is a touch less green than those maps suggest, I'd say:
* Light Tan represents desert and badlands terrain, with little to no vegetation
* Light Green represents more grassy plains, with limited arability and sparse woodlands
* Dark Green represents thicker woodlands and jungle. "Tanglewoods," as the locals call them, refers to a series of native, drought-resistance trees that tend to spread more outward than upward, producing broad, twisting branches and partly exposed root systems that combine to make navigation through them a real pain in the aft-plates. Tanglewoods are more common toward the equator than the poles, where the woods more closely resemble rainforests.
* Dark Brown represents rocky, mountainous terrains that are mostly devoid of vegetation.
* Gray splotches represent large-scale urban/industrial ruins and other artificial detritus. Most of these on Syberia tend to be surrounded on all sides by a mix of blast craters, glassed sands, ash, and rust. Those that are not are typically functional sites that, while cleaner and more organized, are invariably found to be in some state of decay.
And, as you can see from orbit, there is at least one giant site that's clearly the result of human activity, once upon a time...
- Herb
And it's amusing too! :thumbsup:
Hey, do you know what could be even funnier? For the life of me, I can't think of even ONE time the Autobots went on the offensive; every action they seem to have made was defensive or reactive, not proactive. I mean, I suppose it's that old saw about how "the good guy never starts the fight" trope, but...wow. Anyone else notice that?
- Herb
Wasn't there a couple times where they attacked the Decepticon's Space Bridge to get to Cybertron? I think there were a couple other attacks to rescue someone or stop the Decepticons from using something.
i think those would count as "reactive".. they're responding to something going on, usually trying to prevent a decepticon plot-in-the-forming, or dealing with an issue that is not immediately decepticon related but ends up with their involvement.
Wasn't there a couple times where they attacked the Decepticon's Space Bridge to get to Cybertron? I think there were a couple other attacks to rescue someone or stop the Decepticons from using something.
i know in beast wars there was a little bit of proactive stuff going on, but not a lot. mostly just sneaking into the predacon base to steal intel or parts, and searching the planet for clues to the various mysteries it held. even the maximals didn't usually go out of their way to hunt predacons or go on the attack.. no matter how much dinobot urged that. (and given how his plans usually failed, they were wise to ignore them.)
In every case I can think of for all of the above, those actions tended to be small-scale and in direct response to something the Cons had just done to them. But no big, iconic fights started by Autobots; nothing like the 'Con assaults on Autobot City, or strategic resource claims like the seizure of power plants and dams. The Autobots always acted on the defensive, waiting for the enemy to make the first move, rather than hitting them first.
- Herb
i think those would count as "reactive".. they're responding to something going on, usually trying to prevent a decepticon plot-in-the-forming, or dealing with an issue that is not immediately decepticon related but ends up with their involvement.
i know in beast wars there was a little bit of proactive stuff going on, but not a lot. mostly just sneaking into the predacon base to steal intel or parts, and searching the planet for clues to the various mysteries it held. even the maximals didn't usually go out of their way to hunt predacons or go on the attack.. no matter how much dinobot urged that. (and given how his plans usually failed, they were wise to ignore them.)
Hey, do you know what could be even funnier? For the life of me, I can't think of even ONE time the Autobots went on the offensive; every action they seem to have made was defensive or reactive, not proactive. I mean, I suppose it's that old saw about how "the good guy never starts the fight" trope, but...wow. Anyone else notice that?
- Herb
"I was a Cybertronian living in the 80s, but then got dropped into the middle ages!"
They forgot that episode already?
Herb, could we amend some units, with the newly released minis? (This means I may have to redo some :P) like Roadbuster being a Wheeled Scout (BT-466) or Kup being a Prime Mover (BT-465).
Or how about alternative type shenanigans, to reflect different portrayals from the different series and movies? Roadbuster being a heavy and a light type, unless that's too much background work.
It can be chalked it up to lazy programming or corrupted programming from damage or spaghetti code ^-^
Sounds good to me!
I don't know why there couldn't be multiple AutoMechs with different weights. There's lots of Mechs already that already do that. It could be an upgrade that needed a larger size or maybe a smaller size is needed. It could even be a new design going from FC to SF Engine.
when writing up the Aximals i considered hinting that the base OS used comes with various 'personality subroutines' that can be uploaded when the automech is built. which give the same baseline starting points to the new AI, which then evolves over time as they experience things.
this was to help explain why "Optimum Primate " the leader of the Aximals is so similar to "Primus Optimal" the leader of the AutoBoP's. they're both using the same base AI personality model, but with different chassis and experiences.
Giovanni! Sorry to take this out of PMs, but I can't seem to figure out any way to post images to you in the forum DMs. Hope this isn't too "spoilery" or anything.
This tweaked map gives you the site you were looking for where that old THAF fire base could have been found, based on your descriptions to me. I'll note again: That site lies outside the current active borders as of 3120-3150. It *may* have been part of the AutoBoP lands at some point, but whether or not it was should be immaterial. It's in no-bot's-land now.
- Herb
There are lots of chassis designs, but the AutoMechs don't often copy the personas. As we (almost) saw in "Endless Loop (Part 2)", Star Seeker was in the process of being transplanted into a new body, rather than simply having itself built whole and digitally copied. Related units may also have the Code-Bonded or Team-Bonded Traits, which *could* be signs of a duplicated persona going into multiple chassis types.
Anything can happen, really, if you want it to, but I'm tending toward "one persona/one frame." Roadbuster and Starscream may be my first multi-frame personas, although even then, they'll get different names. (Starscream = Star Seeker and Lordstar Seeker; Roadbuster = Road Wrecker and ... hm... Path Dozer!) I suppose, though, you could say I've done even more, if you count that I have Megatron and Galvatron coexisting, along with Cyclonus and Scourge with at least some of the named Seekers they were made from.
- Herb
Chassis designation Windblade
Mass: 35 tons
Chassis: Standard LAM
Power Plant: 175 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Jump Jets: Standard
Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
2 * Small Vibroblades
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: N/A
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-F
Cost: 3,166,335 C-bills
Type: New
Technology Base: Mixed (Experimental)
Tonnage: 35
Battle Value: 628
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 3.5
LAM Conversion Equipment 3.5
Engine 175 Fusion 7
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 5 (LL, RL, RT, LTx2)
AirMech Cruising MP: 15
AirMech Flanking MP: 23
Safe Thrust: 5
Max Thrust: 8
Heat Sink 10 0
LA, CT, RA
Gyro 2
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor 56 3.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 11 7
Center Torso (rear) 2
R/L Torso 8 7
R/L Torso (rear) 1
R/L Arm 6 5
R/L Leg 8 6
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
Actuator Enhancement System LL 1 - 1.0
Actuator Enhancement System LA 1 - 1.0
Vibroblade LA 1 - 3.0
Actuator Enhancement System RL 1 - 1.0
Actuator Enhancement System RA 1 - 1.0
Vibroblade RA 1 - 3.0
Illegal items: Actuator Enhancement System
Makes sense. I was thinking about how there's a number of similar vehicles but they're still different that aren't clones. Inferno and Hot Spot. First Aid and Ratchet. Springer (Helicopter) Whirl, Blades. Warpath and Blitzwing (Tank). If they need a bigger or smaller AutoMech for their needs would't they make one?
The other reason MechaTankus might get angry is that a professor of logic (https://youtu.be/xV1aKUdlljU?t=406) programmed his minion-bots, rather than a military specialist
Still, Groundwave might meet another Transformer and get along nicely with her (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Windblade).
Especially if her chassis was designed and built by the Furai subcontractor (https://www.reddit.com/r/transformers/comments/sde7la/new_pics_of_flametoys_furai_model_windblade/). Not that heavily armored (just under 50% of capacity), no ranged weapons, but two small Vibroblades with a set of AES in all four limbs mean she is much more nimble and dangerous than others might expect.
Here is a rough design of her:Code: [Select]Chassis designation WindbladeIllegal items: Actuator Enhancement System
Mass: 35 tons
Chassis: Standard LAM
Power Plant: 175 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Jump Jets: Standard
Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
2 * Small Vibroblades
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: N/A
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-F
Cost: 3,166,335 C-bills
Type: New
Technology Base: Mixed (Experimental)
Tonnage: 35
Battle Value: 628
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 3.5
LAM Conversion Equipment 3.5
Engine 175 Fusion 7
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 5 (LL, RL, RT, LTx2)
AirMech Cruising MP: 15
AirMech Flanking MP: 23
Safe Thrust: 5
Max Thrust: 8
Heat Sink 10 0
LA, CT, RA
Gyro 2
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor 56 3.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 11 7
Center Torso (rear) 2
R/L Torso 8 7
R/L Torso (rear) 1
R/L Arm 6 5
R/L Leg 8 6
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
Actuator Enhancement System LL 1 - 1.0
Actuator Enhancement System LA 1 - 1.0
Vibroblade LA 1 - 3.0
Actuator Enhancement System RL 1 - 1.0
Actuator Enhancement System RA 1 - 1.0
Vibroblade RA 1 - 3.0
Design rules posts that I have found (or been provided):
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/gryphon-mirage-class-wheeled-syberian-automechs-looking-for-some-help/msg1836559/#msg1836559
Herb, in your spreadsheet listing the various designs (most recent one found here (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/gryphon-mirage-class-wheeled-syberian-automechs-looking-for-some-help/msg1833760/#msg1833760)), can you add a tab listing the rules for creating the Syberians?
I currently have her as "Sky Blade" and she is a Seeker model, like Star Seeker. ;)
... Whoa! That's pretty close to at least one variant configuration I gave her sister-bot, an expy of Stiletto I've named "Poinard". And you did it without having to hack the rules as I did.
Chassis designation Windblade
New Mek
Mass: 50 tons
Chassis: Standard LAM
Power Plant: 250 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Jump Jets: Standard
Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
2xSmall Vibroblade
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-F
Cost: 4,959,500 C-bills
Type: New
Technology Base: Mixed (Experimental)
Tonnage: 50
Battle Value: 827
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 5
LAM Conversion Equipment 5.0 (plus another 2.5 tons allocated to Cargo, to a total of 7.5 tons between cargo and LAM equipment)
Engine 250 Fusion 12.5
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 5 (LTx2, CT, RTx2)
AirMech Cruising MP: 15
AirMech Flanking MP: 23
Safe Thrust: 5
Max Thrust: 8
Heat Sink 10 0
Gyro 3
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor 72 4.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 16 10
Center Torso (rear) 3
R/L Torso 12 8
R/L Torso (rear) 2
R/L Arm 8 6
R/L Leg 12 9
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
Actuator Enhancement System LL 2 - 1.5
Actuator Enhancement System LA 2 - 1.5
Actuator Enhancement System RL 2 - 1.5
Actuator Enhancement System RA 2 - 1.5
Vibroblade LA 1 - 3.0
Vibroblade RA 1 - 3.0
Unfortunately, she is still illegal as I used LAM tech (10% of mass) instead of Conversion equipment (15% of mass). As a 35-tonner she still needs 1.75 tons more allocated to conversion equipment, and the earliest that I can fit 15% Conversion Equipment with the listed equipment and armor is at 50 tons.
(A decent upgrade for her would be trading out one Small Vibroblade for 3 Medium Lasers to give her some ranged combat ability, but that didn't fit with her 'style')
What’s funny is that I kept trying to stat Windblade out as a VTOL AutoMech and failing miserably, but let’s face it, her alt form has a lot in common with a Karnov or Cobra VTOL.
That's definitely possible. The sheer variety of chassis types and the variability of the programmed personas, which are meant to learn and self-modify over time (to a point), makes it easily likely--and, over a long enough timeline, inevitable--that you'll get just similar mind/different bodies approach. But, as with humans, the experience of the machines and their physical gifts are what will define them after that. As Glitterboy suggested in the case of Primus Optimal, Silverback, and likely Primal-C (another Optimus Primal configuration I added to the list), all three of those machines--and possibly others--got the same base OS and persona programming, and since then have adapted to their experiences and the abilities of their alternate forms.
- Herb
How would you feel about a full sourcebook called TRO: Syberia that includes construction rules and backdrop information on the factions and everything? Because I'm working on THAT as we speak.
But if you're in a rush, attached are the full Syberia rules as they stand now.
- Herb
But at heart she was still a jet. Those rotors in her wings are almost superfluous. Thrust has them too, for instance, and he's DEFINITELY Seeker-type. And when you take into account that aerospace fighters have VTOL by default nowadays, well... why make her a VTOL at all when the aerospace fighter is just as good?
- Herb
Other than take off and landing where are the rules for hovering?
I don't think there are rules for hovering aerospace fighters as such...but, tbh, my familiarity with the rules has waned a LOT over a decade-plus of not playing.
- Herb
Other than take off and landing where are the rules for hovering?TW, page 84:
Fighters, aerodyne DropShips and aerodyne small craft that drop to a Velocity of 0 stall. Stalled units fall one altitude and must make a Control Roll. Units equipped with VSTOL do not stall if their Velocity is 0, provided they can still expend thrust. If the aerospace fighter, aerodyne small craft or DropShip still has unspent thrust for this turn they may expend thrust to hover, requiring 2 Thrust Points to do so. If insufficient thrust is available to hover then the craft will stall. If hovering thrust expenditure causes the craft to exceed safe thrust for the turn a control roll is required.
TW, page 84:
That way lies Fan Rules... 8)
given the size of aerospace maps (even the atmosppheric ones) per hex, I'm not sure that the perpendicular mobility of a VTOL fighter in a hover would even register. and IRL it is noteworthy that most non-rotor based VTOL craft aren't particularly mobile in a hover. at least not in the side to side or front and back directions.
That's the thing though, most of the time you see these aircraft hovering, it's when they're close to the ground where VTOLs would be operating. Only they aren't operating on the ground map but the aerospace map. Granted I don't think anyone ever thought someone would want use a VTOL fighter to shoot at infantry inside a building or hover along side and shoot at a command truck but if these fighters can be used that way, why not have rules for it?
I see someone wants to recreate a certain movie scene - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g1Td351PWc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g1Td351PWc)
So so cool. Star Train Beta sounds like he annoyed. I do find myself wondering why he doesn't have any remote Battle Armor drones he could attack the Autobops.
Wasn't Magnum Ultra a Leader Class AutoMech? I was having trouble telling if he was or wasn't.
Okay, so...
Try not to get too distracted by the placeholder art, but here is a preliminary PDF of the Syberia TRO I've been talking about. No specs in this part; it's all about explaining what's what and where we are...
- Herb
What! I have to change all my decals now?!? :flame: :bang:
;D ;D
Okay, so...I like how when I open the file in Firefox, the tab title at the top starts with "Rise of the Tetakuni" :D
Try not to get too distracted by the placeholder art, but here is a preliminary PDF of the Syberia TRO I've been talking about. No specs in this part; it's all about explaining what's what and where we are...
- Herb
I like how when I open the file in Firefox, the tab title at the top starts with "Rise of the Tetakuni" :D
Plog has very reasonable commission rates... 8)
I could run pictures I take of the minis through a line art or cartoon filter? 😅
That's a good idea! :thumbsup:
I say Luciora's miniatures works are the best solution. Another solution is making/drawing the art by making composite images from existing ones. They used to do that when players back in the day their own version of OmniMechs.
I wouldn't be able to do all 80, plus I'd end up deviating alot.
As it is, I have Blackout, and Beachcomber on the workbench in painting stages, have to source or find the lost Sholagar for Cosmos, as the mech form is finished. Looking at maybe ordering the minis for Waspinator, will probably have to aquire another Grand Titan to do a more proper Prime. Kup is on my possible to-do list also.
I know the list specified Beachcomber as a Swift Wind, but how would you feel as a Ibex like Hound?
As it is, I need to balance it with more DemoCons, so will have to go over the list and see what looks possible for me to mod.
Now is a good time for requests, within reason.
As the Aerosmith song said, and i don't have to change a thing!
Herb, what do you think of the Czin? I think it looks appropriate to Blur and maybe Wheelie.
I have to say, just opened up the Cyrano I ordered, and...that is Springer.
I know the Daimyo was picked to be Cosmos but I just say this pic and I couldn't help thinking of Cosmos. https://cfw.sarna.net/news/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Hoplite_Slapshot_2.jpg It'd need "arms" and a head but I think the Hoplite would work for Cosmos.
Heheh. That IS cute. But I still like the Daimyo, if only because you don't have to add in the arms and head that you'd have to do for the Hoplite.
- Herb
Chopping up a Hoplite for Cosmos wouldn't be easy either, as I'm mentally considering it.
Hahah, roaches check in, but they don't check out. ;D
(I have decided, BTW, to handle the art for the TRO section with "placeholder" images.)
So, using mainly Record Sheet templates, I came up with the attached compilation of images, covering all the AutoMech and MiniMech units in this book. (Plus one extra. Seems I have no AutoMechs that transform into surface boats.)
- Herb
You missed the boats? :o Oops! ;D There are a few options if you want to include some.
Depthcharge. He's supposed to be a larger ship but I think he could be lighter. Something like a Sea Skimmer.
Broadsword could be smaller and carry drones.
There's an unused paddle steamer design that combines with other classic vehicles. Soundwave turns into an ironclad in a comic book.
A couple mini-cons convert to boats.
There's also an Elita-1 that converts into a boat.
I'm sure there's more but some like Man-O-War would probably be non converting drones.
Aww. I thought Luciora miniature work be cool to add. Oh well! I'm so delighted what been rolling out! Thank you Herb, this is truly :D a gift in the making. :thumbsup:
What's the best way to submit the art?
I feel like I need to balance my minis with more 'cons first 😅 feels a bit lopsided at the moment.
So is there life left in the biodomes of the Axilum?
i'd assume it has a higher concentration of whatever plant and animal species still survive on the planet, and that they did manage to avoid complete failure for as many decades as they could before any damage it took caused unfixable breaches. fixing the dome would be a high priority directive for them.. not that there would be any of the parts needed for it. but i figure they'd probably keep as much of the surviving environmental control facilities working as they can (since their engineering support automechs would never have been told to stop) so the land below the remains of the dome would have more water, fertilizers, etc being delivered to it, leading to more plantlife and the concommitant wildlife. (possibly, they might even send expeditions out to the rest of the planet to grab samples to bring back, following really old directives. giving an excuse for teams of them to show up just about anywhere.)
That's pretty much what we have here. I have Broadside and Tidal Wave in the list now, and both basically are modified Luftenburg carriers, so they don't transform. I haven't yet determined if I should be including them and the DropShip units in this book (though I probably will, in the end).
Shockwave was the ironclad, though. I'm not sure what Soundwave transformed into.
I found a page on the TFWiki for watercraft units, and Depthcharge does have promise, I must admit. Sea Skimmer feels pretty good, but maybe Monitor would be a better fit as the boat-style minis for that guy show more weaponry.
Food for thought anyway.
Oh, Luciora mini art would go in with units they've done. The rest will be openly posted as "Image Pending". So, if Luciora and folks like him want to keep going, I'd be happy to integrate their work as an "Updated File".
- Herb
I was always through that such larger mechs would either have drone like battle armor to handle things it needed manipulated such as cargo or do repairs. Have non-transformable ultralight mech so it have something of a defense against commandos like for broadside.
Funny thing, I thought a massive space only transformer would be possible since would need worry about gravity messing you up.
Why not use both? Other AutoMechs have different classes. Why not BoatMechs? The Sea Skimmers could be scouts and strikers and Monitors or even the Mauna Keas (does it have a mini?) could be the main combatants and commanders. I suppose there could even be some salvage variants to rescue sunk Boat and Sub Mechs.
I was always through that such larger mechs would either have drone like battle armor to handle things it needed manipulated such as cargo or do repairs. Have non-transformable ultralight mech so it have something of a defense against commandos like for broadside.
Funny thing, I thought a massive space only transformer would be possible since would need worry about gravity messing you up.
I was always through that such larger mechs would either have drone like battle armor to handle things it needed manipulated such as cargo or do repairs. Have non-transformable ultralight mech so it have something of a defense against commandos like for broadside.
Funny thing, I thought a massive space only transformer would be possible since would need worry about gravity messing you up.
Space is where I use my Scorpion and Champion LAMs for that reason, no gravity. >:D
Type: Mariner
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 90
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 9
Conversion Eqpt: Naval 13.5
Engine: 270 14.5
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Cruise MP: 3
Flank MP: 5
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 4
Cockpit: AutoMech 3
Armor Factor: 240 15
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 29 31
Center Torso (rear) 16
R/L Torso 19 25
R/L Torso (rear) 14
R/L Arms 15 25
R/L Legs 19 28
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Conversion Equipment RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
Floats RT/RL/LT/LL 4 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Common Configuration
ER Large Laser RA 2 5
LRM 10 RA 2 5
SRT 6 RT 2 3
Ammo (LRM 10) 36 RT 3 3
SRT 6 LT 2 3
Ammo (SRM 6) 30 LT 2 2
ER Large Laser LA 2 5
LRM 10 LA 2 5
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, Naval/BattleMech conversion), Anti-Aircraft Targeting, Improved Sensors, Protected Actuators, Searchlight
Notable Mariners:
Mariner Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Depth Charger Common ArtilleryMech AbvAvg (4/3) Infantry Bandersnatch/Sea Skimmer*
Dock Watcher Common ArtilleryMech Reg (5/4) Infantry Bandersnatch/Sea Skimmer*
*Remove hydrofoil fins
The only surface naval vessels available as minis (from the BT line, anyway) are the Sea Skimmer and the Monitor. If I'm willing to look into hover-vehicles (many of which have a quasi-naval look), I open the field a wee bit more. And I have multiple submarine units already.
Fluff-wise, it wasn't really gravity that killed either of those units. The Scorpion LAM didn't work because the transformation system simply wouldn't balance right and/or just wouldn't work at all--something that two attempts, centuries apart, failed to work out--while the Champion LAM showed excess stress to both the joints and the jets due to mass (again, not weight, but mass; in space, the problem would have likely been just as bad). But, then again, why am I arguing this, when I have the Syberians here violating all KINDS of transformation limitations?
- Herb
Grand Titan LAM????
Okay, then....
A new AutoMech--currently the only transforming surface BoatMech--just for you guys:
(snip)
Enjoy!
- Herb
Hmm. That isn't a lot of choices. :(
If I remember right, the Scorpion LAM couldn't fly. It converted in the bay but it just couldn't get enough thrust from it's jump jets to get lift or something. Of course in space lift isn't a problem. Weren't the Champion's myomer's fraying or something? In addition to the slow thrust from the jump jets? Either way mass would still be an issue in space but lack of gravity would help. A lot of exercises are done in pools because the buoyancy helps the joints. Wouldn't zero g also help?
While the ’Mech was able to transform on a gantry in a testing
facility, in the field it simply collapsed while attempting to convert to
AirMech or fighter modes. A frustrated design team decided to send
the design out in AirMech mode and demonstrated that it could
transform back into BattleMech form in the field, albeit with little
grace. Empowered by this small victory, the team pressed onward,
but ultimate success eluded them. Even when the Scorpion could
convert into another mode, its jump jets could not generate enough
force to create lift. Brigadier’s testing division even attempted to airdrop
one of the prototypes from a shuttle, to see if it could manage
sustained flight in its fighter configuration. While the ’Mech did not
fall like the proverbial brick, neither did it perform anything that
could have been considered flight. After something of a controlled
decent, its pilot ejected 300 meters from impact, and the LAM
crashed into a rocky outcropping on the test fields.
Next they tested the prototype’s ability to transform
while stationary, and were encouraged to see the craft achieve
relatively smooth transitions between fighter and BattleMech with
only minor manual adjustments required between modes.
The disappointment came when it was time for the Champion
LAM to take flight. After launching in fighter mode, the pilot quickly
noticed that the LAM’s turns were sluggish. The on-board diagnostics
and remote viewing could not find a problem during the maiden
flight, so the pilot successfully landed after just a few minutes airborne.
Further analysis of the footage and the Champion discovered that the
larger jump thrusters that were required for a ’Mech of the Champion’s
size struggled to meet the maneuvering needs for combat flying,
and made for a poor substitute for the dedicated engines of a true
fighter. Left as is, the Champion LAM would be an easy target in the
air, even for an LAM. Worse, after-flight servicing reports found signs
of extreme wear on the conversion equipment, especially in the hip
and waist assemblies, and a few frayed myomer bundles and power
feeds that suggested the potential for catastrophic failure from
repeated transformations. Though the Champion LAM successfully
flew, landed, and transformed, its capabilities in all three respects in
battle—or even over a short round of routine non-combat patrols—
were questionable, at best.
Attempts were made to use lighter jump jets to achieve thrust,
but those jets failed to produce enough power to keep the LAM aloft
or achieve stable, sustained flight. After a few test pilots were injured,
that fix was abandoned and other solutions were proposed. Outfitting
the jump jets with additional motors to move them worked, but
required so much additional mass that the Champion would have
to dump additional weapons to accommodate those changes—and
that change still did not rectify the structural weakening caused by
conversions. With the entire project going nowhere and stock prices
falling amid news of a spectacular crash caught on tri-vid, Bergan
Industries finally canceled the Champion LAM project, and shipped
its remaining prototypes to their storehouses on New Dallas.
Would be interesting. :)
As to the Champion LAM:
Again, we see failure in the jets to get as much power as they should have on paper, as well as needing "only minor adjustments" after transformations, and the underlying structural weakening of conversions, which would still be a mass issue. Reflecting this again with the Nonfunctional Conversion System Quirk. It's hinted that one COULD fix the problem by increasing the conversion gear mass, though, so... hmmm. (No, Herb; that way lies madness!)
- Herb
You also have the problem of going from 10% to 15% of the mass means a much nastier penalty. My original Windblade design was ~35 tons but illegally only 10% of its mass for 'LAM' systems. When increasing the transformation systems to 15% I had to bring the platform up to 50 tons to keep the same equipment.
Well, to be fair, there aren't a lot of boat Transformers, which should be little surprise, as much of TF's canon have Cybertron being devoid of water.
The Scorpion LAM's key paragraph is thus:
Stat-wise, it suffered from the Non-Functional Item (Conversion System) Trait to reflect this factor, which basically covers the system's inability to provide that boost in power LAM jump jets receive to achieve actual Thrust-grade acceleration. If kept to its canon, a Scorpion LAM would probably work like a normal Jump Jet-equipped BattleMech in space.
As to the Champion LAM:
Again, we see failure in the jets to get as much power as they should have on paper, as well as needing "only minor adjustments" after transformations, and the underlying structural weakening of conversions, which would still be a mass issue. Reflecting this again with the Nonfunctional Conversion System Quirk. It's hinted that one COULD fix the problem by increasing the conversion gear mass, though, so... hmmm. (No, Herb; that way lies madness!)
Anyway, as to the buoyancy of water equating to the vacuum of space in cancelling out weight, it doesn't really work that way. Being surrounded by water on all sides actively slows you down because the water around you actively counters some of your mass. In space, there's nothing at all doing that. NASA more or less uses water training to get astronauts used to low grav walking (which tends to force one to hop about for short distances), and for reinforcing the sense of slow-motion one has to do in space in order to avoid too much inertia. Apparently, astronauts in space COULD try and move faster than they often seem to, but they do so at the risk of spinning out of control by actions as simple as raising their arm at the wrong moment. Strap rockets on your feet and back, and raise the total mass of your body and limbs to 60 tons, and you'll probably only magnify such problems by a couple orders of magnitude or so. (BTW, myomer musculature is actually part of the whole actuation system, so frayed muscles can be just as debilitating to a 'Mech's actuator as any blown joints.) Throw in the fact that you can spend half your time in a form where your thrust approaches four gees of acceleration, and inertial effects probably compound this matter enough to compromise the actuators and myomers of giant walking robots.
The bottom line: For whatever reason, the materials science of the BT universe can't deal with the strain of transforming 'Mechs into jets past 55 tons without some mass-eating extras and reinforcements that were deemed impractical by the universe's engineers. (And I may be talking my way into madness here, as the Syberians CLEARLY rewrote their LAM playbooks to make other transformers...)
MADNESS!
- Herb
Ergo my comments on this being madness. In thinking about the fact that the Syberian conversion systems tend to be heavier, I realized it COULD follow that they might be robust enough to deal with 60+ ton convertible aerospace units. But if I went that way, a LOT of AutoMechs would need total rewrites, and at this stage in the game, I'm just not up for that...
- Herb
Why not follow Superheavy Mechs' example? Double the weight for the conversion systems for Superheavy AutoMechs? Then have some cookies. ;D
That's 30 percent of your frame going into conversion, plus another 10% for your frame, then add engines, gyro, and control system, and what's left for armor and weaponry?External weaponry. If you recall, not many actual Transformers had weapons built in. They had hand-held weapons. Optimus Prime had only the laser rifle, only built in weapon was the one-time ever seen energy Battle Ax. Most of the Automechs had external hand held weapons.
- Herb
External weaponry. If you recall, not many actual Transformers had weapons built in. They had hand-held weapons. Optimus Prime had only the laser rifle, only built in weapon was the one-time ever seen energy Battle Ax. Most of the Automechs had external hand held weapons.
So heavier conversion systems could be dealt with somewhat with everything being externally clamped to the outsider like a Robotech's Alpha Fighter gun being under slungged on its chassis or its later newer weapon between its arms. You have actual transformer planes with their arm mounted lasers being externally mounted on wing pylons.
That's 30 percent of your frame going into conversion, plus another 10% for your frame, then add engines, gyro, and control system, and what's left for armor and weaponry?
- Herb
External weaponry. If you recall, not many actual Transformers had weapons built in. They had hand-held weapons. Optimus Prime had only the laser rifle, only built in weapon was the one-time ever seen energy Battle Ax. Most of the Automechs had external hand held weapons.
So heavier conversion systems could be dealt with somewhat with everything being externally clamped to the outsider like a Robotech's Alpha Fighter gun being under slungged on its chassis or its later newer weapon between its arms. You have actual transformer planes with their arm mounted lasers being externally mounted on wing pylons.
We've been representing those as jettison-capable and modular weapons Quirks. In my Endless Loop story, we see Primus Optimal do that with its Gauss rifle. Granted I show them doing it with the speed of a handheld weapon, but I'd handwave that as a benefit of the fully automated nature of AutoMech designs.
That might be an approach, but means the Syberian AutoMechs get one more advantage over LAMs in the ability to external-mount weapons.
- Herb
Not a lot but I'm going to guess they shouldn't be too powerful do to the original LAM rules. If that's too much though how about just adding 50% to the conversion system? So if a standard conversion system is 15%, a superheavy conversion system would be 22.5 %? That'd be 13.5 tons for a 60 ton FighterMech compared to just 9 tons with 15%. It's a bit of an increase but not as much 30%. It'd be a bit rough for 60 ton FighterMechs but weight is rough for 20 ton FighterMechs too. It wouldn't be as crippling to a 100 ton FighterMech.
I always presumed that those hand held weapons were carried internally but weren't available in vehicle mode. Like the shoulder mounted weapons on the cars.
Many Macross Valkyries have a port in the arms where the handle of the gun pod can be held when not held in the hand. You can see the arm mount for the VF-1's gun pod here. The gun pod is also a part of the Valkyrie's take off mass. Not empty weight. So it's kind of factored into everything unlike Battletech's hand held weapons which are completely external. I'm going to presume the Alpha has something similar.
I don't know that I'd go completely external-mounted weapons since the drag would slow already slow LAMs down. This might be letting the Cat Girl out of her bag...
I've put one superheavy into this project as it is (the Fort Max/Omega Supreme ground mode analog), and didn't change its conversion system weight. So, wouldn't go that way.
That's how I've been treating them, yes.
From what I've seen in some animated sequences, the gun pod outright pops off during the transformation process, and the Veritech dramatically grabs it once it's completed its conversion--which is fine, I suppose, if you transform in about a second and have mecha that react and maneuver with the speed and agility of the human body...
But our Syberians are in the BattleTech universe, where things a lot slower, clunkier, and more robotic than Macross/Robotech goes, and that kind of thing would end up with gun pods dropping like bombs. I'm not much of a fan of parts-formers, which transform by basically disassembling themselves and popping themselves back together, including the dropping of their weapons, because I see that kind of thing as a feature that begs for trouble or asks for a bit of magic we just don't find much in real life. So, yeah, our Syberians are using jettison-capable weapons that are basically built into their hands, but capable of ejecting and being remounted as needed.
Shit! Now I suddenly have an idea on what to do with that story I thought up a few years back....
Anyway, yeah, I'm steering away from external-mounts for now, but there's technically no reason a Syberian couldn't just pick up and use a handheld weapon system as long as they have the actuators and musculature to do so. (Idea for that "mounted gun" feature in the War for/Fall of Cybertron games, where they basically amounted to the Cybertronian equivalent of an M-60.)
- Herb
I've got world building question and a mech construction one. I'm presuming there are highways and roads within and connecting the various the various factions from before the world fell to war. The AutoMechs would still want to get around their own territory and visit friendly ones. If there's TrainMechs, would there also be rail lines or would the TrainMechs just travel over the roads? If yes to rail lines, would any of the TrainMechs be Maglevs or just wheeled?
Was there an example of a HoverMech that I missed?
Type: Beetle II
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 35
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 3.5
Conversion Eqpt: Hover 5.5
Engine: 210 9
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9
Jumping MP: 0
Hover Cruise MP: 8
Hover Flank MP: 12
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: AutoMech 3
Armor Factor: 96 6
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 11 12
Center Torso (rear) 7
R/L Torso 8 10
R/L Torso (rear) 5
R/L Arms 6 9
R/L Legs 8 10
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Conversion Gear RL/LL 2 0
Hover Fans RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
2 Double Heat Sinks RT/LT 6 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Common Configuration
ER Large Laser RA 2 5
Notes: No turret in Vehicle Mode; Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, BattleMech/Hover Vehicle Conversion), Compact ’Mech, Improved Sensors, Modular Weapons, Jettison-Capable Weapons (Hands).
There are roads and highways, but a great many of them outside of held territories are likely more rubble-y than not. (The convertible AutoMechs with vehicle forms are off-road capable by default, BTW.) Rail systems, if any, would be for non-convertible "non-Mech AutoMechs," though. There are no TrainMechs.
Seaspray's and Blurr's AutoMech equivalents are HoverMechs.
Here's Blurr (Blurry Beetle):
Type: Beetle II
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 35
(snip)
Very cool! :thumbsup:
Another silly question, if the Syberian Drone's creators made Drones to look like animals, would they have also made them to look like plants? I just saw this guy https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Flytrap and a few others and wondered. They could be a variant of the BeastMech or Emplacement type drones.
So Astrotrain type Drones would have only a single mode as either a Dropship or a Locomotive, or if convertible either an AeroFighterMech or a WheeledMech made to look like a shuttle or a locomotive?
Another silly question, if the Syberian Drone's creators made Drones to look like animals, would they have also made them to look like plants? I just saw this guy https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Flytrap and a few others and wondered. They could be a variant of the BeastMech or Emplacement type drones.
Flytrap wasn't immobile, so he'd probably get a monstrous BeastMech translation here. A stationary "PlantMech" would be an EmplacementMech translation. You may notice that the flying beast Mechs we have are built as FighterMechs and VTOLMechs; they just got animal/monster makeovers. The PresiDom faction on Syberia uses bizarre monstrous forms, while the InterSectCon and AxiMaL use more "terrestrial" forms.yeah, "plantformers" would be really hard to adapt over. if i ever tried to tackle Botanica (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Botanica_(BM)) from Beast machines for example, i'd probably drop the entire transforming aspect since it didn't really give much to work with in BT (and her weapons are all similarly "out of box" things), and instead make it a class of Industrialmech grade agricultural support mech. possibly named the Treant class after the tongue in cheek "ask vector prime" examples of other plant form transformers. (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Treant_Troop)
Star Train (Astrotrain) has two identities on Syberia. One is a Leader-class WheelMech (covering the train-like form, but one that doesn't need rails), and the other is a DropShip.
Flytrap wasn't immobile, so he'd probably get a monstrous BeastMech translation here. A stationary "PlantMech" would be an EmplacementMech translation. You may notice that the flying beast Mechs we have are built as FighterMechs and VTOLMechs; they just got animal/monster makeovers. The PresiDom faction on Syberia uses bizarre monstrous forms, while the InterSectCon and AxiMaL use more "terrestrial" forms.
- Herb
I'm highly amused as Syberian tech and mechs crosses over very easily to other Japanese transforming series, many of which use other non-military vehicles, like trains, police cars and construction vehicles. Been playing alot of Super Robot Wars 30 lately and a number of the robots from Brave Police J-Decker seem to share art.
yeah, "plantformers" would be really hard to adapt over. if i ever tried to tackle Botanica (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Botanica_(BM)) from Beast machines for example, i'd probably drop the entire transforming aspect since it didn't really give much to work with in BT (and her weapons are all similarly "out of box" things), and instead make it a class of Industrialmech grade agricultural support mech. possibly named the Treant class after the tongue in cheek "ask vector prime" examples of other plant form transformers. (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Treant_Troop)
Slightly off topic, but this just came up from a site I get models from:
https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/m/image/10902258
Slightly off topic, but this just came up from a site I get models from:After thinking about it, this is the logical conclusion of the war. They repopulated the humans with themselves! ;D
https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/m/image/10902258
Beachcomber and Full Tilt are up!
Beachcomber and Full Tilt are up!
Mechasaurus
Mass: 100 tons
Chassis: Standard Biped
Power Plant: 300 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 21.6 kph
Maximum Speed: 43.2 kph
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
4 Small Laser
1 Snub-Nose PPC
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-E
Cost: 11,850,000 C-bills
Type: Mechasaurus
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Tonnage: 100
Battle Value: 877
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 10
Engine 300 Fusion 19
Walking MP: 2
Running MP: 3(4)
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sink 16 6
Gyro 3
Cockpit 3
Conversion Gear 5
Armor Factor 0 17
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 31 38
Center Torso (rear) 13
R/L Torso 21 28
R/L Torso (rear) 10
R/L Arm 17 34
R/L Leg 21 34
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
2 Small Lasers LL 2 1 1.0
2 Heat Sinks RT 2 - 2.0
Communications Equipment RT 5 - 5.0
Shield LA 7 - 6.0
MASC LT 5 - 5.0
2 Heat Sinks LT 2 - 2.0
2 Small Lasers RL 2 1 1.0
Snub-Nose PPC RA 2 10 6.0
Claw RA 7 - 7.0
Tail (quad mode) RA 2 0 6.0
sorry to add an extra unit but i decided to give it a go..
---------------------------------------------
The Saurus class bestial automech is a PresiDom exclusive design, and a rare one at that. Outwardly it is similar in gross physical form to the Grimdark class Beastmech, but the fauxflesh conceals a very different machine, and one that is arguably more advanced. <snip>
Does Blurry have a small shield? usually it's part of the nose.
Seaspray's and Blurr's AutoMech equivalents are HoverMechs.
Here's Blurr (Blurry Beetle):Code: [Select]Type: Beetle II
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 35
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 3.5
Conversion Eqpt: Hover 5.5
Engine: 210 9
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9
Jumping MP: 0
Hover Cruise MP: 8
Hover Flank MP: 12
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: AutoMech 3
Armor Factor: 96 6
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 11 12
Center Torso (rear) 7
R/L Torso 8 10
R/L Torso (rear) 5
R/L Arms 6 9
R/L Legs 8 10
Fixed Components Location Critical Tonnage
Conversion Gear RL/LL 2 0
Hover Fans RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
2 Double Heat Sinks RT/LT 6 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Common Configuration
ER Large Laser RA 2 5
Notes: No turret in Vehicle Mode; Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, BattleMech/Hover Vehicle Conversion), Compact ’Mech, Improved Sensors, Modular Weapons, Jettison-Capable Weapons (Hands).
- Herb
Does Blurry have a small shield? usually it's part of the nose.
Herb, what do you think about the Banshee 11X / Neptune for HMS Alliance / Deepdive, Astro-sinker, Diveplane?
Felt like an appropriate overall look from some of the art i was perusing. I was finding concept art for HMS alliance and it was a.big hulking looking robot with a snorkel face that I felt could be proxied well with the Banshee 11X
That's what a modified Neptune hull and putty is for :D
Huh! Based on your idea that they'd be smaller, I made my version--which I dubbed the Tyrannis--at 70 tons.no reason why you couldn't have both running around. perhaps the 70 tonner could be the Dinobot type. :)
As the one who gave us most of the Beast Wars expies, I'm okay with swapping out my Tyrannis for your MechaSaurus.
- Herb
Herb, what do you think about the Banshee 11X / Neptune for HMS Alliance / Deepdive, Astro-sinker, Diveplane?
Skorpios Bestial Automech
Mass: 60 tons
Chassis: Standard Biped
Power Plant: 240 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
2 SRM 2
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-X-X-F
Cost: 4,272,000 C-bills
Type: Skorpios
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Tonnage: 60
Battle Value: 708
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 6
Engine 180 Fusion 7
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sink 10 0
Gyro 2
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor 128 8
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 20 17
Center Torso (rear) 6
R/L Torso 14 14
R/L Torso (rear) 4
R/L Arm 10 15
R/L Leg 14 15
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
Cargo RT 2 - 2.0
Additional Leg RT 1 - 1.0
Additional Leg RT 1 - 1.0
SRM 2 Ammo (50) RT 1 - 1.0
Remote Drone Command Console RT 1 - 2.0
Cargo LA 2 - 2.0
SRM 2 LA 1 2 1.0
Claw LA 4 - 4.0
Cargo LT 2 - 2.0
Additional Leg LT 1 - 1.0
Additional Leg LT 1 - 1.0
Heat Sink LT 1 - 1.0
Remote Drone Command Console LT 1 - 2.0
SRM 2 RA 1 2 1.0
Cargo RA 2 - 2.0
Claw RA 4 - 4.0
Tail (beast) CT 2 - 6.0
FlyDrone Support VTOL
<p>
<b>Mass: </b>2 tons<br/>
<b>Movement Type: </b>VTOL<br/>
<b>Power Plant: </b> Fuel Cell<br/>
<b>Cruising Speed: </b>75.6 kph<br/>
<b>Maximum Speed: </b>118.8 kph<br/>
<b>Armor: </b>BAR 2</b><br/>
<b>Armament:</b><br/>
1 Particle Cannon (Semi-Portable)<br/>
<b>Communication System: </b>Unknown<br/>
<b>Targeting & Tracking System: </b>Unknown<br/>
<b>Introduction Year:</b> 3145<br/>
<b>Tech Rating/Availability:</b> E/X-X-X-E<br/>
<b>Cost:</b> 43,440 C-bills<br/>
</p>
Type: FlyDrone
Chassis Type: VTOL (Small)
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Mass: 2,000 kg
Battle Value: 14
Equipment Mass (kg)
Chassis/Controls 925.0
Engine/Trans. 212.0
Cruise MP:7
Flank MP:11
Heat Sinks 0 0.0
Fuel 4.0
Armor Factor (BAR 2) 6 78.0
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front 1 2
R/L Side 1/1 1/1
Rear 1 1
Rotor 1 1
Weapons
and Ammo Location Tonnage
Particle Cannon Front 40.0
Cargo
None
Notes:
Features Environmental Sealing Chassis and Controls Modification
Manipulator(2; 10 kg each)
Drone Operating System(700 kg)
Mite DroneArmor
Type: Mite
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Tech Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Chassis Type: Quad
Weight Class: Light
Maximum Weight: 750 kg
Battle Value: 87
Swarm/Leg Attack/Mechanized/AP: No/No/No/No
</p>
Equipment Slots Mass
Chassis: 100 kg
Motive System:
Ground MP: 5 90 kg
Jump MP: 0 0 kg
Manipulators:
Left Arm: None 0 kg
Right Arm: None 0 kg
Armor: Standard (Basic) 0 100 kg
Armor Value: 3 (Trooper)
Slots
Weapons and Equipment Location (Capacity) Mass
Small Laser Body 1 200 kg
Mesothelae Bestial Automech
Mass: 60 tons
Chassis: Standard Biped
Power Plant: 240 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Standard
Armament:
8 Machine Gun
1 AC/10
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: D/X-X-X-D
Cost: 4,442,560 C-bills
Type: Mesothelae
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Tonnage: 60
Battle Value: 829
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 6
Engine 240 Fusion 11.5
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sink 10 0
Gyro 3
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor 168 10.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 20 23
Center Torso (rear) 8
R/L Torso 14 19
R/L Torso (rear) 5
R/L Arm 10 20
R/L Leg 14 20
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
4 Machine Guns RT 4 0 2.0
2 Additional Legs RT 2 - 2.0
AC/10 Ammo (20) RT 2 - 2.0
Heat Sink RT 1 - 1.0
Machine Gun Ammo (200) LT 1 - 1.0
4 Machine Guns LT 4 0 2.0
2 Additional Legs LT 2 - 2.0
AC/10 RA 7 3 12.0
Type: Coaster
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 55
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 5.5
Conversion Eqpt: Wheeled 8.5
Engine: 275 15.5
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Hover Cruise MP: 7
Hover Flank MP: 11
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: AutoMech 3
Armor Factor: 120 7.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 18 15
Center Torso (rear) 8
R/L Torso 13 12
R/L Torso (rear) 6
R/L Arms 9 12
R/L Legs 13 14
Fixed Components Location Critical Mass
Conversion Gear RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
Hover Fans RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Mass
Common Configuration
Streak SRM-6 RA 2 4.5
Ammo (Streak SRM-6) 15 RA 1 1
CASE RT 1 0.5
CASE LT 1 0.5
Streak SRM-6 LA 2 4.5
Ammo (Streak SRM-6) 15 LA 1 1
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, BattleMech/Wheeled Vehicle Conversion), Improved Sensors, Modular Weapons, Jettison-Capable Weapons (Hands).
Notable Coasters:
Coaster Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Coast Diver Common ArtilleryMech Reg (5/4) Infantry Axman-2N/Maxim Hovertank
Sea Coaster Common ReconMech Elt (1/0) Scout Axman-2N/Maxim Hovertank
That's different. So it only fires from it's broadsides?
Too bad this can't count. This was made by a fan (https://youtu.be/fPWnVuIHv8M), released 20 days ago roughly.
Ok, gonna call this one Deepdive, need more Deceptions to balance out my Autobots
I still say that a gobot is just a syberian automech who had its brain ripped out by Manei Domini to mount a VDNI equipped cockpit. :)
lol ;D
Wasp and Stuka for Triggerhappy?
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Triggerhappy_(G1)#Toys (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Triggerhappy_(G1)#Toys)
I can't remember. Has Misfire been done?
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Misfire (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Misfire)
The Valkyrie might work for MechMode and the Samurai for Fighter Mode if the mini is available.
Out of curiosity have you looked at any of the Renegades from GoBots? They're They are Transformers now.
too bad we can't really do a proper flying MechaTankus. though if we we were i'd say the Transformers Prime version would be more BT-compatible. (honestly, the F-117 mode just doesn't feel right for G1 Megatron.)
I actually have Tiggerhappy as a Seeker class (he transforms different, but the body parts all basically end up in the same places between modes).
Misfire also became a Seeker class, but holds a distinction from the others that his alt mode is a Gotha instead of a Mechbuster.
Nope, because so far as I can tell, the GoBots are being treated as alt universe Transformers...and I rather disliked their general aesthetic, which I often felt was TOO clunky and unrefined.
Since we already have most of the rules for transforming Mechs, how about Veh-Veh (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K7WYAC4H8g) conversion rules?
That's cool. Sorry I couldn't remember or find them in the spreadsheet. How about Slugslinger? If it hasn't, Pixie Hawk and Gotha?
Scrapmetal? Phoenix Scorpion or Fire Scorpion and Shadow Hawk?
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Scrapmetal_(race)
Thunderhead? Tarantula or Stalking Spider 2 for "beast mode" I want to say Hammerhands for MechMode but I'm not sure.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Thunderhead
Have the Tetrajet Seekers been covered? Can't remember. :-[
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:WFCT-toy_SparklessSeeker.jpg
Megatron with a Demolisher altmode?
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:CV-toy_RollCombine_Megatron.jpg
That's cool. I suppose most are clunky and unrefined although I do like some better than their Transformers versions.
Since we already have most of the rules for transforming Mechs, how about Veh-Veh (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K7WYAC4H8g) conversion rules?
Could be something the human Syberians used, before they all died. Or could be something seen elsewhere. But I'd leave them to you.
A lot of those would basically be minis swaps; no need for new stats to go with them. The tetrajets would likely use Corsairs as a starting point. That Demolisher-tank-Megatron would just be Mechatankus again. The Scrapmetals look like they'd get Seeker bodies in biped form (they look so similar that way, to me), and Scorpion/Fire Scorpion bodies in quad (BestialMechs with decidedly non-bestial aesthetics), sure. Thunderhead...could be another Scrapmetal, or an H-tank model, given how its legs seem to double as tracks in quad mode. Depends on how you want to play it.
- Herb
Corsair would work, or the Banshee ASF.
personally i'd try to use the newer style from the war for cybertron part of the franchise, it has a shape that is a little more Battletech friendly.
that one you could do as a Malaika ASF (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Malaika)
Yeah, the Banshee or Malaika could work for a Tetrajet. :thumbsup:
Herb would these Seekers still be 50 tons?
These look like they'd be lighter than the classic Seeker.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:RID15-toy_StarscreamWarrior.jpg
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:Ani-toy_Sunstorm_VoyH.jpg
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:Primetoy-Thundercracker.jpg
This one looks like it'd be heavier.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:Generationstoy-Thrilling30Thundercracker.jpg
Are there variants for Seekers like Bitstream? The F-15s with the F-14's canopy. https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:TL_Bitstream-toy.jpg I was wondering about a Beagle Active Probe for the "RIO" position.
I really can't remember. Is the Centurion Weapon System effective against AutoMechs?
There is the Thorizer and a few other vehicles with converting motive systems in XTRO:Boondoggles. I'm not sure how many of the later ones would fit but the Thorizer should be good.
They could be different weights though or have different weapons. Right now there's a 50 and 100 ton tracked AutoMechs. There could be more. could be a
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Heavytread_(Generations) Rommel/Patton or Gürteltier Tank.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Half-Track_(G1) Partisan AA Tank
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Landquake_(Timelines) different mech Partisan AA Tank
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Killbison different mech Partisan AA or maybe a behemoth II?
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Rescue_Force_1 different mech Partisan engineering equipment replaces guns.
Are minis of those available? If so, go for it!
I'd use the Seeker stats for all of them, my philosophy being that the majority of these incarnations are cosmetic variations of the same machines. They might get different minis picked out (RiD and Animated incarnations would probably use the Stingray for fighter mode, for instance, while the Prime incarnation might be done using a modified Rapier, Turk, or Sulla mini.)
Yes, Bitstream (Bit Seeker) has its own variant. And it uses a BAP.
I'd say no. The CWS works a lot like how, in that one Star Trek movie and that one TNG episode, the Federation had prefix codes that could turn off a fellow starship's shields when transmitted. In the SLDF era, that was commonplace as a means to keep SLDF/TH units in SLDF/TH hands, but post-League, it stopped being as reliable, which is why the rules for the CWS were written to reflect that. Think of it as basically a hacking program that's become less effective simply due to software and BIOS updates over time. The Syberian AI system was specifically noted to be really hacking-resistant, and so shouldn't recognize the CWS (although, in RPG terms, one might consider a bonus to hacking efforts if the hacker has a CWS handy--just remember that hacking a Syberian AI effectively "kills" the AI entirely and turns the machine into a remote-controlled drone).
Sure, but remember the Thorizer was a failure. We'd just be presupposing it didn't and setting up a world where such things flourished. That world was probably not Syberia, though, or if it was, that was when there were still humans there.
Of course more Tracked AutoMechs are possible. I just have a LOT of models in my TRO already.
- Herb
Makes sense. I was thinking it might knock them offline for a while. Instakill is a bit much.
Sure. Maybe they started with converting vehicles like the Thorizer and then moved on to Mechs. Any left would be the last of a dying breed but there could be a wide variety of them.
That was my way of preventing players from "enslaving" AutoMechs and getting around the whole "can't stop their war" bit.
Maybe, but as they would have been human-controlled (MASK vehicles were never "alive," right?), they would basically vanish with the rest of the people. And so the AutoMechs inherited the system.
- Herb
Could be but if they have non-converting drone vehicles, why wouldn't they have converting drone vehicles? ??? And if converting vehicles were piloted, would there have been piloted converting mechs?
personally i'd saythat if M.A.S.K. appears in the nebula, it would be on 'Earth' alongside the superbeings, perhaps combined with GIJoe as part of a SHIELD expy.
*ponders* Nah.
On your table, have funsies. But in my headcanon, nope. Sorry, but MASK's vehicles don't inspire me enough, and Battletech-ifying them makes their use questionable at best when you already have the ability to build Mech-to-vehicle conversions.
- Herb
honestly you could basically treat most of the ground vehicles as Rotunda variants, with the 'flying' types mounting kanga style jumpjet arrays.
personally i'd saythat if M.A.S.K. appears in the nebula, it would be on 'Earth' alongside the superbeings, perhaps combined with GIJoe as part of a SHIELD expy.
alternately you could just make the flying cars as support aircraft and just claim they look like cars when taxing.
Would there be converting Joe and Cobra vehicles. Cause crossovers. Just curious.
So not any time soon. ;) Kind of a bummer. The crossovers are pretty cool. Megatron as a HISS Tank would be fun.in the 2003 crossover comics, Megatron was still a pistol (was actually stuck as a pistol) but Cobra reprogrammed autobots and used them as shocktroops disguised as Cobra vehicles. Optimus Prime, Ironhide and Ratchet were all HISS tanks. (the alt-timeline story went that Cobra found the Ark before the occupants woke up, and they took advantage of the offline Autobots and Decepticons, with only megatron waking up. it ends with a few autobots that got missed helping GIjoe rescue the rest)
in the 2003 crossover comics, Megatron was still a pistol (was actually stuck as a pistol) but Cobra reprogrammed autobots and used them as shocktroops disguised as Cobra vehicles. Optimus Prime, Ironhide and Ratchet were all HISS tanks. (the alt-timeline story went that Cobra found the Ark before the occupants woke up, and they took advantage of the offline Autobots and Decepticons, with only megatron waking up. it ends with a few autobots that got missed helping GIjoe rescue the rest)
though there was a toy made of Megatron as a HISS tank as part of a limited editions line. (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Collaborative)
(man the transformers wiki is almost as bad a timesink as TVtropes.)
Not until the Syberians and the Earthlings cross paths. And judging by the maps and the opening fiction from WttNC, only one Syberians has made it even half the way there, only to land on Toreel....Automech won't last too long if they ran into the super humans of "Earth".
- Herb
Automech won't last too long if they ran into the super humans of "Earth".
That's kind of why Marvel decided (after dropping Spider Man in for one issue) to keep the TF universe as a separate universe.
That's kind of why Marvel decided (after dropping Spider Man in for one issue) to keep the TF universe as a separate universe.Wasn't the Fantastic Four in one issue? I collected the entire US Marvel series. I think they were on the 22nd issue. Maybe cover through.
...And why I gave neither world in the Nebula FTL travel. ;)
- Herb
in the 2003 crossover comics, Megatron was still a pistol (was actually stuck as a pistol) but Cobra reprogrammed autobots and used them as shocktroops disguised as Cobra vehicles. Optimus Prime, Ironhide and Ratchet were all HISS tanks. (the alt-timeline story went that Cobra found the Ark before the occupants woke up, and they took advantage of the offline Autobots and Decepticons, with only megatron waking up. it ends with a few autobots that got missed helping GIjoe rescue the rest)
though there was a toy made of Megatron as a HISS tank as part of a limited editions line. (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Collaborative)
(man the transformers wiki is almost as bad a timesink as TVtropes.)
Wouldn't the existence of supers be a reason for normals to make mechs and powered armor? So they'd have a bit of a chance rather than no chance at all?
Is that where the image of Baroness with Ravage on a leash (https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/a/ab/BaronessRavageDevilsDue1.jpg) came from?i believe so
Oh sure! Sentinels would be BattleMechs; most of Iron Man's suits are BA. Some others might count as Protos.and IIRC it is implied that the average tech level of 'earth' is basically late 20th century*, the whole 'lost colony' bit of the BT side of the setting and the 'superscience' stuff of the Comicbook side of the setting would allow for small numbers of more advanced hardware.. probably primitive tech level stuff for most of the more mass produced items, but one or two off units could easily be using succession wars or even star league level tech systems.
And their effectiveness against supers is whatever your GM can justify.
-Herb
Can't prepare for what you don't know exists. I'm sure those in the supers area have thier own tech to deal.
Oh sure! Sentinels would be BattleMechs; most of Iron Man's suits are BA. Some others might count as Protos.
And their effectiveness against supers is whatever your GM can justify.
-Herb
and IIRC it is implied that the average tech level of 'earth' is basically late 20th century*, the whole 'lost colony' bit of the BT side of the setting and the 'superscience' stuff of the Comicbook side of the setting would allow for small numbers of more advanced hardware.. probably primitive tech level stuff for most of the more mass produced items, but one or two off units could easily be using succession wars or even star league level tech systems.
*though whether this is IRL 20th century or Battletech 20th century is probably up to the gamemaster.
Ergo my comments on this being madness. In thinking about the fact that the Syberian conversion systems tend to be heavier, I realized it COULD follow that they might be robust enough to deal with 60+ ton convertible aerospace units. But if I went that way, a LOT of AutoMechs would need total rewrites, and at this stage in the game, I'm just not up for that...
- Herb
Why not follow Superheavy Mechs' example? Double the weight for the conversion systems for Superheavy AutoMechs? Then have some cookies. ;D
Slightly off topic, but this just came up from a site I get models from:
https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/m/image/10902258
What the heck? ???
After thinking about it, this is the logical conclusion of the war. They repopulated the humans with themselves! ;D
Coaster (Hover AutoMech)
Summary
Although the Coaster AutoMech is one of the few known units on Syberia designed to convert into a hovercraft mode, the AutoBoP faction prefers to use this particular model mainly around coastlines and over water....Code: [Select]Type: Coaster
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 55
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 5.5
Conversion Eqpt: Wheeled 8.5
Engine: 275 15.5
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 0
Hover Cruise MP: 7
Hover Flank MP: 11
Heat Sinks (Double): 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: AutoMech 3
Armor Factor: 120 7.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 18 15
Center Torso (rear) 8
R/L Torso 13 12
R/L Torso (rear) 6
R/L Arms 9 12
R/L Legs 13 14
Fixed Components Location Critical Mass
Conversion Gear RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
Hover Fans RA/RL/LA/LL 4 0
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Mass
Common Configuration
Streak SRM-6 RA 2 4.5
Ammo (Streak SRM-6) 15 RA 1 1
CASE RT 1 0.5
CASE LT 1 0.5
Streak SRM-6 LA 2 4.5
Ammo (Streak SRM-6) 15 LA 1 1
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, BattleMech/Wheeled Vehicle Conversion), Improved Sensors, Modular Weapons, Jettison-Capable Weapons (Hands).
Notable Coasters:
Coaster Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Coast Diver Common ArtilleryMech Reg (5/4) Infantry Axman-2N/Maxim Hovertank
Sea Coaster Common ReconMech Elt (1/0) Scout Axman-2N/Maxim Hovertank
Too bad this can't count. This was made by a fan (https://youtu.be/fPWnVuIHv8M), released 20 days ago roughly.
Getting caught back up on the thread:
Actually, it could also prove to be an interesting way to make Bimodal LAMs an option people want to take, versus Trimodal. Limit Bimodal LAMs to, say, 75-tons, and suddenly transforming Gundams become an option.
That way lies the VB-6 Koenig Monster (http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossga/vb-6-konig.htm)
I would think so but you don't see them much in in the comics.
I would think that with so many supers that norms would need a way to deal with them. That would mean making things like Power Armor and Mechs would be a priority.
Maybe a different 20th Century? Patlabor takes place in the late 1990's. I don't think even military Labors would be as good as mechs but they'd be better than nothing. They also use 20th Century weaponry and materials.
Actually, it could also prove to be an interesting way to make Bimodal LAMs an option people want to take, versus Trimodal. Limit Bimodal LAMs to, say, 75-tons, and suddenly transforming Gundams become an option.
That way lies the VB-6 Koenig Monster (http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossga/vb-6-konig.htm):
All of this has happened before and will happen again.
Wait, that's showing as wheeled, not hover?
You've been reading my notes on the Ianus system i see.. going to have to check my computer for backdoors.
Mixing the standard BT and 1945 rules could be a hoot. But my hands are full as it is...
Of course not! The moment the normies have parity with the supers, what makes the supers necessary? The Marvel universe uses its Sentinel robots not as a means to level the playing field, but as a threat to super-kind that happens when the normies try to create something as a check on their powers. So, most often, only the villains tend to show up with the equalizing tech--or a super who didn't really need them anyway.
Mixing the standard BT and 1945 rules could be a hoot. But my hands are full as it is...
Meh. I mean, TBH, eliminating the AirMech mode WOULD make me for amenable to the idea, but... nah. I think I gave the Syberians more than enough toys to play with as it is.
Side note, i kept thinking about it (Yes, I'm slow.) In comparison, the Quadvees are technically close cousins with the Bi-Mod Syberian ground "LAM" mechs aren't they? Except no full mech mode, just half tank/ half quad-ish Mech with turret.
I don't think they'd have parity. A more level playing field but not parity.
I might give it a try. It could be fun. There's a couple details I'm not sure about though but I'll give them a thought.
Enough toys to play with? :o What a silly idea. ;D :))
There are other worlds. Maybe one of them has 75 ton Bimpdal LAMs?
You've been reading my notes on the Ianus system i see.. going to have to check my computer for backdoors.
A lot of that would come down to how the GM wanted to play things. There would likely be a lot of exotic materials and alloys introduced to negate the abilities of various supers--a 'Mech armor and structure that uses non-magnetic composites for its structure and armor to deal with Magnetman; some variation on the Blue Shield tech that offsets electrical super-powers; the odd tac-nuke for the super-supers; lead-alloy-lined helmets and head gear to deal with the psychics; lead-lined everything else for the X-ray vision pervs; strategic nukes for the super-supers who survive tac-nukes or super-speedsters that can outrun the smaller nukes' blast radii; bases deep underground/underwater/in space/inside volcanoes, where most authorities or civilians are loathes to look. You know, all the usual!
If one of those is crit space, I took care of that in my latest revision, about the same point where I deleted the weapon equivalency data.
After a while, you know, you're just asking your players to carry around an encyclopedia just for the weapons, then spending pages of text defending how you arrived at those stats and/or justifying why such weapons are necessary when about 20 others do the same thing. And I'm looking for a fun game. Odds are, only one of us will be happy there.
Maybe on your table. Maybe even someday on mine. But for right now? ... Ugh! Here's a challenge: Give us a 60-ton and a 100-ton AutoMech Aerofighter conversion using the extant 15% mass for conversion gear. (Put them in a separate thread, though, please!) When done, explain where you may have had trouble, and where you felt it was better. We don't need fluff; just build them.
Well, I mean, "12345" is a pretty lame password, you have to admit.
- Herb
Makes sense. And it seems like a lot of work. It might be easier to have rules for creating tech and let the players make their own than to make it all oneself.
I must have missed that one. What is it?
That's true. That's why I don't mind Cannons being placed in classes too much. I just figure a high velocity 80mm could do as much as a low velocity 120mm. Not sharing ammo would be an optional thing. Still, I do think there's room for some more toys. Some, do have some stats but they're either not in the core books or they're AToW only. :(
That's cool. I do do that on my table. It was the only way we could make a close to anime VF-1 Valkyrie.
Who told!?
That's cool. I do do that on my table. It was the only way we could make a close to anime VF-1 Valkyrie.
Why? The Valkyrie is only 14-15 tons!
...So, you want rules on how to make more rules?
I might not have posted it; I don't quite remember. As side projects go, it was kind of shelved.
Meh. I guess that's what Shrapnel's for...
Why? The Valkyrie is only 14-15 tons!
You did. It was only glitterboy's code, after all...
- Herb
Type: Deconstructor
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 150
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: Superheavy Endo 15
Conversion Eqpt: None 0
Engine: 300 XL 9.5
Walking MP: 2
Running MP: 3
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks (Double): 18 [36] 8
Gyro: Superheavy 6
Cockpit: AutoMech 3
Armor Factor: 456 28.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 4 12
Center Torso 45 58
Center Torso (rear) 30
R/L Torso 32 44
R/L Torso (rear) 20
R/L Arms 25 50
R/L Legs 32 64
Fixed Components Location Critical Mass
Endo Steel RT/CT/LT 7 --
2RL/2LL
6 Double Heat Sinks 3LT/3RT 12 --
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Mass
Destroyer Configuration
Long Tom Artillery Cannon RA 8 20
ER Large Laser RA 1 5
Gauss Rifle RT 4 15
Ammo (LTAC) 20 RT 2 4
ER Large Laser CT 1 5
PPC CT (R) 2 7
Gauss Rifle LT 4 15
Ammo (Gauss) 32 LT 2 4
ER Large Laser LA 1 5
[b]Notes:[/b] Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI), Difficult to Maintain, Distracting (Massive!), Improved Communications, Improved Sensors, Improved Targeting (All), Multi-Trac, Non-Standard Parts, Oversized, Protected Actuators, Rugged (2), Searchlight
[b]Credit:[/b] Jason Coffey, for the awesome miniature
Nope. Rules to make custom equipment. It wouldn't do for things to be too munchkiny. ;D
I thought they just had new infantry weapons.
The empty weight for the VF-1 is just over 13 tons empty. Fuel, Gun Pod, and Missiles add more weight. Then there's the FAST Packs and Armor Packs, along with upgrades. The Valkyrie's max take off weight with FAST Packs is 72 tons. I rounded up to 75. That gave me room to upgrade them to VF-1X Plus and later variants.
I posted some superheavy AeroMechs here. I'll post some more heavies and some lights later.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/some-aeromechs-for-syberia/
After seeing at least two really good UrbanMech-based amalgamations made to resemble Devastator, I decided to create a Superheavy for his united form as a Syberian class known as the Deconstructor. I think it may also work for any merger team, really.
Deconstructor (Non-Convertible AutoMech)
Summary
As one of just a few super-heavy AutoMechs known to exist on Syberia, the Deconstructor class is nothing short of a titan unto itself. Although other superheavies, like the Fortress class, have also been sighted in the ranks of the two major Syberian power blocs, the Deconstructor is remarkable in that it is a non-convertible design, devoted exclusively to mobile combat. But the really confusing part, to us, is how much this particular model looks less like a single, unified machine, and more like an unholy combination of smaller ’Mechs. The Deconstructor known specifically as "Destroyer," in fact, resembles nothing so much as five UrbanMechs merged into a composite of domed heads, legs, and gun muzzles.
And damn me for saying this, but it pulls that look off gloriously!Code: [Select]Type: Deconstructor
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 150
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: Superheavy Endo 15
Conversion Eqpt: None 0
Engine: 300 XL 9.5
Walking MP: 2
Running MP: 3
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks (Double): 18 [36] 8
Gyro: Superheavy 6
Cockpit: AutoMech 3
Armor Factor: 456 28.5
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 4 12
Center Torso 45 58
Center Torso (rear) 30
R/L Torso 32 44
R/L Torso (rear) 20
R/L Arms 25 50
R/L Legs 32 64
Fixed Components Location Critical Mass
Endo Steel RT/CT/LT 7 --
2RL/2LL
6 Double Heat Sinks 3LT/3RT 12 --
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Mass
Destroyer Configuration
Long Tom Artillery Cannon RA 8 20
ER Large Laser RA 1 5
Gauss Rifle RT 4 15
Ammo (LTAC) 20 RT 2 4
ER Large Laser CT 1 5
PPC CT (R) 2 7
Gauss Rifle LT 4 15
Ammo (Gauss) 32 LT 2 4
ER Large Laser LA 1 5
[b]Notes:[/b] Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI), Difficult to Maintain, Distracting (Massive!), Improved Communications, Improved Sensors, Improved Targeting (All), Multi-Trac, Non-Standard Parts, Oversized, Protected Actuators, Rugged (2), Searchlight
[b]Credit:[/b] Jason Coffey, for the awesome miniature
Have funsies!
- Herb
Right, so... rules to make rules. The trouble with supers-vs-tech, especially in the way we handled them in Nebula California, is that the rules for super-powers are broadly based and not really balanced in any way. But so are the "rules" for how super-powers work in comics to begin with. Superman can do anything...except see through lead, and somehow rocks from his homeworld make him spontaneously weak like he was allergic to them, as does changing the sun's color to match Krypton's own? I mean, holy cow, how did the Kryptonians live BEFORE they all blew up? Wolverine can respawn as long as a drop of his blood remains and connects to a suitable McGuffin? Green Lantern is stymied by...the color yellow? Weaknesses and boons like these, you can see, are basically random, meaning that making BT tech that works against it requires building in some similarly random solutions. With the D20/PF1 rules, we had a slightly more familiar basis to work from, but while Paul clearly saw BT equipment being just entirely too powerful against magic, the fanfic I see keeps showing magic trouncing BT characters. (FWIW, I think maybe the random EM "noise" generated by fusion reactors and high-grade ECM should make scrying and telepathy ineffective, but not every GM would like to play it that way.)
And since making fuller rules would require an expense in time and resources CGL just wouldn't want to pay for in the name of a gag product, the ultimate onus is on you, the players, and your GMs, to take the samples we gave, and extrapolate them as far as you like.
Do they? TBH, I've not read a single issue. I just knew they were putting some game stuff in there, which kind of defeats the purpose of having a compilation of core rulebooks for everything...but it's the crunch that moves copies, so more crunch it is!
Where did you find that figure? It didn't turn up in my quick searches.
Saw them. What I noticed was a tendency for slow craft--like, near minimum legal takeoff speeds--with armament not dissimilar to what you could get on the 50-55 ton units already. So, it's like most of that tonnage is just going to armor? I will admit Fright Face looks pretty interesting, but you got that at 60 tons, just a single increment up from 55, while your 100-tonners habitually came in pretty undergunned (though I guess the cargo bays make for great bomb payloads).
I did like your second "Apollo" with the Gas Hog Trait and the MINIMUM fuel capacity. That poor lad might not even make it to the space-atmo interface, but I've not really paid a lot of attention to aerospace rules lately.
So, the question becomes...are the AeroMechs over 55 tons really worth it? How did you feel about the whole exercise?
- Herb
btw, on the battletech international facebook group, a guy posted pics of his repaints and reposes of some dolalr tree Trandfomer figures that are mech sized. so if you have a dollar tree around and need some seekers, megatron, soundwave, and optimus, they might be useful.
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10225590274597576&set=pcb.10225590279797706
pics attached (the seekers were repainted and reposed starscreams. apparently none of the figures have poseability, so he had to do some saw work)
btw, on the battletech international facebook group, a guy posted pics of his repaints and reposes of some dolalr tree Trandfomer figures that are mech sized. so if you have a dollar tree around and need some seekers, megatron, soundwave, and optimus, they might be useful.
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10225590274597576&set=pcb.10225590279797706
pics attached (the seekers were repainted and reposed starscreams. apparently none of the figures have poseability, so he had to do some saw work)
Makes sense. Led lined Mechs, with yellow spotlights, with anti-magic runes painted on the insides. I don't think tech can be made to cover every specific thing without having lots of specific units. Most I think would try to cover the main areas. That doesn't mean rules to create tech wouldn't be nice. Not that it would just be used against supers. I'd still like to see a streetsweeper Mech and a studio tri-d Mech and so on. Heck, I'd like TW rules for popup camper infantry and rules for the fold out camper in the Marc Exploration Mech. That doesn't mean items fans create should be munchkiny.
I don't know. I haven't either. I don't mind new things being put in new products. It would be nice if those new things would be included in the next edition of a core book. But then they haven't included everything yet so I guess I'll be waiting a while on that. :(
Several places
https://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-1_Valkyrie
https://www.mahq.net/vf-1a-tv/
http://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/vf-1s-fastpack.htm
http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossdyrl/vf-1s-strike.htm
http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossdyrl/ve-1-elintseeker-valkyrie.htm
http://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/vf-1j-gbp.htm
Yeah they're slow. I wanted to be close to the image at least. That kind of limited their speed some. Tonnage going places varies. The first Pathfinder has greater firepower at the cost in speed and armor. The second one is more comparable to the 55 tonners. Sky-Jack though is a lot slower than the Seekers but it does have almost twice as much payload as them though. I have most of it as bomb bays but other weapons could be used. It could even be faster if I didn't limit jump jet locations to the legs. Thanks, I thought about making Fang Face heavier but I wasn't sure what equipment to give him. I am thinking about some heavier LAMs though. And yeah, the 100 tonners are kind of under gunned. The cargo bays could be used to carry bombs though. I was also thinking of them as more recon units. Pull out the imagers and a lot of other weapons can be put in their place.
I think so. It's all about balancing speed, armor, and weapons. The Seekers are twice as fast as SkyJack but he has twice the payload. I could reduce the payload for additional speed and armor and still outgun the Seekers. I'll post additional AeroMechs in a bit but I do think heavier AeroMechs are worth it.
They look great. I wish I were better at painting and sawing. I picked up a few just because they were mech sized. :thumbsup:
The ultimate arbiter of munch really comes down to your table and your players. For myself, I consider the supers of the CNAZ to be deriving their powers from the same kind of localized reality bending that gives the fantasy worlds of the CNAZ their "magic." (It is even possible that a wee bit of that magic, or a more diffuse form of it, is happening in the Star Empire systems to give us their Fortune effects, BTW.) Not having made rules for how it all works, though, allows gamers to quite liberally adapt whatever game system/setting they fancy, and with that kind of freedom, there's no way we could establish a unified ruleset for it that meshes seamlessly into the reality of BattleTech's universe as we know it.
My point is, as long as it take crunchy new rules and gear to drive book sales, you'll never see a true "here's everything" kind of rulebook.
*squints* Okay, so the 75-ton mass (and the 100+ ton mass) appear to be related only to the use of the FAST pack and atmo-escape booster system. Those are literally just giant rockets that I think can be/are jettisoned in combat. I'd not count those weights as integral to the unit itself. Take them away and the heaviest they seem to go becomes about 45-50 tons on the BT scale, which is inside the extant rules.
I did notice that, yeah.
Maybe it's just that I don't want to change the rules again and have to redo a bunch of "should be bigger" AeroMechs, but I'm not so convinced. It looks increasingly like a diminishing return as we go into the heavy/assault ranges...
We do have a Dollar Tree or two in my area. Maybe I should go looking.
- Herb
The escape booster is just a big rocket the FAST Packs are more involved. The regular FAST Packs contain fuel in the legs, missiles in the arms, and thrusters, fuel, and missiles or lasers in the back units. The Elintseeker has additional sensors and com equipment instead of weaponry. They're pretty integrated. They're just jettisonable. Without them the weight does drop a lot but some of that is still the wing mounted missiles and the gun pod, and fuel. Anyway, if we build the Valkyries lighter then there's no weight to add the FAST Packs or the Armor Packs. It also doesn't leave room for the different variants or upgrades. Some have two seats. The newest one even has a BA cockpit now. Doing things the way we did, the "early" VF-1s are a bit over engineered but they have room to grow. Otherwise, each variant would have to have their own stats from the ground up. The VF-1S is heavier than the VF-1A so it's need different engines, structure and conversion system for each variant. It'd be like each of the Seekers having their own stats because they weigh from 45-70 tons.Personally, not get side tracked from the Syberian AutoMechs, the FAST PAC/Boosters could be treated like either as External items that can mount in the Bomb slots normal aerospace fighter has, likely have to eject it ANYWAYS because it can't transform or enter atmosphere.
Personally, not get side tracked from the Syberian AutoMechs, the FAST PAC/Boosters could be treated like either as External items that can mount in the Bomb slots normal aerospace fighter has, likely have to eject it ANYWAYS because it can't transform or enter atmosphere.
Since Lams have only Bomb Bays, it would be funky to have them plug into THAT and treat the rocket pack as add-on vehicle of some sort, with armor (fuselage Legs) , fuel, etc until it gets into mech parts aside from crits. Quirk could solve the problem, but not many people use them (Quirk: Attachable External Vehicle Pack.)
Aaaaand...
BAM! Unit models from A (AeroMech) through F (Flybee Ultralight). That's about 30 chassis types, covering 83 named convertible Syberian AutoMechs. (Excluding large naval vessels, mobile structures, and spacecraft, of course.)
If I continue in this vein, the next batch will likely be G through P (28 chassis types) or G through R (32 chassis types), followed by R (or S) through W (for 29-33 chassis types). (There are currently no chassis types beginning with Q, X, Y, or Z.) After which I may toss in a few more entries for the 6 or so non-mobile structure units that I have, in fact, already statted.
- Herb
Downloaded for later reading (probably this weekend)... congrats on a finished project good sir! :thumbsup:
light PPC's and ER mediums and smalls on the Aeromechs? wasn't aware those were options on syberia. i thought their weaponry was mostly restricted to the Star league era stuff, aside from the melee weapons.
also, wasn't the flybee drone one of mine?
you may also want to list the attribution as "glitterboy2098", instead of just 'glitterboy'. (mostly for accuracy's sake. i could provide my real name instead if you'd prefer)
personally i keep looking for whether there is a limit on how many you can mount. as written, rotors are the same weight regardless of your mechs size, and the more you mount the fasteryou go. so there is no reason to ever build a VTOL-Mech lighter than the max size, because the smaller the mech the fewer rotors you can include and the slower it goes.
I've seen the paragraph on rotors for VTOL Automechs a bunch of times. 1 ton, 2 crits, up to running speed, yeah, yeah, reskinned improved jump jets... VTOL mode cruise equals rotors*1.5, yeah, yeah.
I never glomed onto the fact that rotors provide VTOL MP in mech mode!
Yeah, the VTOL units are really strapped for variation. Though I think we managed some nevertheless, in the end it comes down to more cosmetic differences and armaments than speed and mass. I *have* tweaked the upper mass limits for AerofighterMechs and VTOLMechs, but not by a terrible lot. There really is, after all, only so much one can do with some things when you're trying to maintain a sense of standards in line with established rules and canon.
That being said....
At present, I'm 4 entries away from completing the second part of the main TRO section (Units G through R). For a fan project, this may be one of my longest slogs, let me tell you!
- Herb
I thought that the 2 crits for Rotors had been changed?
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/errata/welcome-to-the-nebula-california/msg1093924/#msg1093924
What are the tweaks?
Side question on your awesome book. The Hopper, that's suppose to be the grasshopper shaped Insectacon. Was it possible have partial wings to help it fly and stay cool?
Yes. VTOL Rotors are 1 ton/1 crit. A VTOLMech can mount up to its Running MP's worth of Rotors. The Rotors provide 1 VTOL MP each in BattleMech mode, and 1.5 Cruising VTOL MP each in VTOL mode.
You really didn't notice the 75-ton BomberMech or the 50-ton VTOLMech? Welp. I tweaked those two classes' max tonnage. Syberian FighterMechs can now be built up to 75 tons, and VTOLMechs can now be built up to 50 tons. That's about it, really. I wanted to make more convincing Lugnut and Blackout expies.
The Partial Wing was a post-3060 creation and not a physical attack weapon, so the Syberians didn't develop it. There are a number of flight-capable Decepticons who become ground-bound in this realm; the classic Insecticons fall into that category.
- Herb
Syberians did develop extra legs and tails. Partial Wings kind of go along with them. If they're too good maybe something similar but not as good?
I just finished the 2nd PDF of mechs you wrote, Herb. I was very overwhelmingly happy with all of it. You have your finger nearly all the Transformers I've ever heard of before. Nevermind things I never heard before.
While illegal for sure, the Bi-mod LAMs certainly offer perhaps less complication to the concept of LAMs. Then again, these guys will never be official.
Thank you again working on this passion project. I may sound like I'm kissing ass, but really grateful such breath fresh air this is. Its fantastic.
A couple things here.
Firstly, Wrangler was asking for the Hopper (a 40-ton bestial AutoMech) to get Partial Wings. While this would give it a 4/6/4 (6) and an effective heat control system of 13 points/turn...they'd cost the 'Mech another 3 tons. Swapping its Jump Jets with Jump Rockets and changing its sinks to Doubles would only cost it 1 and provide superior benefits, although the torsos become super-cramped in the bargain. Note that this is one of the few AutoMechs to have Commercial armor, because it just didn't have the tonnage for good protection. Even an extra 1-ton requirement gets expensive for a unit like it.
Secondly, Partial Wings are specifically prohibited to LAMs. In this case, I would put all Syberian convertible units into that same prohibition, because the Partial Wing is supposed to be a single, fixed component, while the torso segments of many convertible Syberians shift in the transformation process.
Thirdly, it appears that it was the Clans who developed Partial Wings first, and it was still in prototype phases in 3067. The Inner Sphere only got the tech from copying it later on. They Syberians never reached Clan-level engineering, and given how easily this tech can be substituted using extant rockets and double heat sinks, they probably would see such things as pointless.
Fourthly, given the above, making a Syberian equivalent that works differently/not as good would be redundant with the other stuff they made.
So... I'm gonna pass on that.
- Herb
And here I thought it was the ASF mode... ::)
Question
Aren't the Extra Limbs supposed to be mounted in the Side Torsos? ??? 1 Crit each side per pair of legs?
I also agree with Wranger. I haven't gotten through it all yet but they are fantastic and I'm grateful for them too. :bow: :beer:
Yup. I caught the error.
Thanks!
- Herb
Will we see civilian AutoMechs as well? I noticed that was mentioned here and there. I'd assume the classic Crosscut, Harvest Ant etc.
Funny thing there was abandoned what I would say was "Farmbots" which were suppose to be foil for Insecticons. They extremely briefly appeared in animated commercial for the toys back ground where you could see briefly farm machines transforming. (https://youtu.be/xSzdW9k8ayY) I guess it was cut since it seem to be bit too far out concept. Why.....well it was bit silly. ;D Its at :08 in the video. Quality quite bad.
I didn't have any here that are based on WorkMechs...at least not until we get to the Hyena SalvageMech, which becomes Whirl's Mech mode; that one will be in the final section of the TRO chapter. But, I mean, WERE there any Transformers that could legitimately match the WorkMechs we have on hand? There's also a dearth of minis that would serve as civilian support vehicles.If you look frame where Insecticons arrived on the barn, you can see the yellow farm vehicles.
None of that is to say they'd be impossible to see; just that I've found nothing that would go with the WorkMechs we have to date. A few Support Vees made it, though...
It's really difficult to see what's happening in that scene between the bad quality and the few frames we got on the action, so I'm not even sure they were supposed to be farm vehicles transforming...
But if we're thinking about THOSE kind of civilian units, a number of units in this book are based on Transformers that become civilian vehicles in their alternate modes.
- Herb
Just go through the list of non-weapon options for Vehs and Mechs, and see if any AutoMechs can have then attached. For example, put two Mining Drills (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mining_Drill) on a Veh mode and you can get Twin Twist (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Twin_Twist_(G1))
A few Equipment (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:Equipment) and Melee Weapon (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:Melee_Weapons) ideas would be:
- Mining Drill (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mining_Drill) - Mech sized
- Industrial Drill (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Industrial_Drill)- BA sized
- Lift Hoist (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lift_Hoist) - Mech sized
- Cargo Lifter (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Cargo_Lifter_(Battle_Armor)) - BA sized
- Salvage Arm (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Salvage_Arm) - both Mech & BA sized
- Rock Cutter (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rock_Cutter) - Mech sized
- Chainsaw (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Chainsaw) - sized
And before I forget, you have the Constructicons (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Constructicons), Sixbuilder (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Sixbuilder), and Landfill (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Landfill_(RID)).
The original Autobots had several civilian vehicles as well.
Possible ideas are:
- a Support Vehicle train engine (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Rail_Racer_(RID)) that pulls basic train cars to transport goods (and other Automechs)
- a flyer that can carry cargo as well
- an Automech that can become the brain (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Headmaster_(technology)) for a Dropship (or other type of large vehicle)
- an Automech that transforms into a repair station (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Construction_station)
- Automechs who have above a certain percentage of their mass devoted to a non-combat items (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Perceptor)
Besides, some Automech classes might not be useful (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Disposable_class)
If you look frame where Insecticons arrived on the barn, you can see the yellow farm vehicles.
I was just mentioning them. Its very little known about them. I wished I could find better footage of it.
You can draw TOO! Who knew!? ??? :D
Hence my ":D"... ^-^
Whoo hoo! So looking forward to reading this. :thumbsup: :beer:
Oh, so someone DID notice!
-Herb
I'm been reading it. Sorry I hadn't said anything yet. It's really has some really has interesting ideas in these books!
may i suggest a chart at the back listing all the unit types (including variants) and which factions use what? sort of Syberian MUL?
I just get so lonely without acknowledgement. :-[No worries it will be treasured. People will be playing stuff in the future. Its too interesting and cool not to!
In a way, that's what the "Notable Specs" are for at the bottom of each entry's stat blocks. In addition to identifying "named units," their configurations, skills, and fields of expertise, they are color coded by faction. But a dedicated list of who makes what? I'm gonna avoid that, I think. The IE guys making this report are just guessing, after all. And after a few hundred years of continuous fighting, repairs, rebuilds, and reprogrammings, things get muddy.
Plus, whoo! This project is WAY larger than I ever meant it to be! I think it'll clock in at about 300 pages, when I get it done--and that's without a ToC, an Index, or Record Sheets! (I think I overdid it!)
- Herb
btw, on the battletech international facebook group, a guy posted pics of his repaints and reposes of some dolalr tree Trandfomer figures that are mech sized. so if you have a dollar tree around and need some seekers, megatron, soundwave, and optimus, they might be useful.
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10225590274597576&set=pcb.10225590279797706
pics attached (the seekers were repainted and reposed starscreams. apparently none of the figures have poseability, so he had to do some saw work)
Aaaaand...
BAM! Unit models from A (AeroMech) through F (Flybee Ultralight). That's about 30 chassis types, covering 83 named convertible Syberian AutoMechs. (Excluding large naval vessels, mobile structures, and spacecraft, of course.)
If I continue in this vein, the next batch will likely be G through P (28 chassis types) or G through R (32 chassis types), followed by R (or S) through W (for 29-33 chassis types). (There are currently no chassis types beginning with Q, X, Y, or Z.) After which I may toss in a few more entries for the 6 or so non-mobile structure units that I have, in fact, already statted.
- Herb
I just get so lonely without acknowledgement. :-[
Aaaaaand now for the non-'Mech AutoMechs that I've statted.
I have not statted the mobile structures. And I don't really plan to. Because they scare me. So this is the last of the units for my Syberia TRO.
Revisions will eventually come, after I finish and post the last chapter: the rules!
- Herb
Wholly crap-olly. The AutoCarrier is a bloody titan with no transformer! That sucker's armor is crazy strong, amazing job, Herb!
If I dare suggest something however. I'm actually surprised there no vehicle bays to launch hovercraft and sea-based automechs. Unless this will appear in the record sheet your creating for it. I know support naval vehicles are super complicated, including flight deck, armored chassis related features.
Man, I need to diversify a bit more. Good to see someone else's mini work too!
Man, I need to diversify a bit more. Good to see someone else's mini work too!
Herb, if I wanted to share these files on FB or Discord, would that be ok?
Love Herb-art. Very well done! I like how the metal is reflecting facial expressions without having any mouths. ;D
As side note, the earlier Spreadsheet mentioned a dropship that was shaped like Pursuit Cruiser, was that dropped?
The hovertanks would be convertible AutoMechs who transform on the decks and glide right off it. :) We'd have to handwave how they get back on without the ship docking first... AutoCarrier is mainly about the planes, anyway.
- Herb
that scene with Blackout attacking the army base (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATRmESixBBc) was the closest we'll get to a film with a BT mech. (and honestly i kinda wish that the following films had focused more on the military troops instead of Whitwicky. especially since those guys felt more like GI-Joe than the entire cast of the 2009 GI-Joe film.)
That's interesting stuff! I love the Q/A at the end.
AT-ATs, AT-ST's, and the like don't have the same kind of presence as a BT mech would have.. they're slow, clumsy, and ungainly.
??? There's this scifi franchise with space wizards that has BT like mechs. There's a couple actually. There's also episodes of other scifi series with BT like mechs.
The military does feel a lot like GI-Joe. I guess that helps explain why the TF LA movies didn't feel very TF to me.
AT-ATs, AT-ST's, and the like don't have the same kind of presence as a BT mech would have.. they're slow, clumsy, and ungainly.
and according to some interviews, the studio had wanted to do a GI Joe film originally but the start of gulf war 2 had Hasbro suggest Transformers instead. i suspect that much of the military side of the film retains a bit of GI Joe DNA.
Considering they are Has-bros anyways being owned by the same company, and have a canon link with a daughter of a Joe, maybe its intentional as a potential spin-off just in case.
Semi-final draft of the expanded and improved rules section (final part of the book) here!
Not sure if I want to add more Q&As at the end, and/or what to do with some of the empty space. (Maybe more original art?)
Either way, with the exception of maybe one page way back toward the beginning, that's the whole project basically done, now!
Weeeeeee!
- Herb
AT-ATs, AT-ST's, and the like don't have the same kind of presence as a BT mech would have.. they're slow, clumsy, and ungainly.
I suppose they look like they're slow, clumsy, and ungainly but I think part of that is their design. Their official speed would make many of them either 4/6 or 6/9 Mechs. Their movement looks good for that.
We put the Scout Walker at 5/8, IIRC, and the AT-AT at 3/5. I recall doing the research to make a lot of stats as close as possible to canon, though looking at Wookieepedia, the AT-AT should be more like 4/6. But then again, Wookieepedia puts the cargo capacity of an AT-AT at over 3,000 tons, with the AT-ST getting a 500-ton cargo capacity. Neither of which are even POSSIBLE in BT tech, so....to be fair a lot of the wookiepedia entries on the technical specs come from that cross section books, which were being written by some of the most ardent "argue and 'win' debates on the internet" types (http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWICS.html) (more (http://www.st-v-sw.net/Warsiegroup.html)), and they tended to inflate the specs to make SW stuff superior to everyone. its where the 'gigaton turbolasers' came from for example. and a lot of their figures are just weird to start with. star destroyers apparently burn more fuel per second in their reactors than they mass as a ship for example.
Star Empire is about 85 LY away if you want ATs...
We put the Scout Walker at 5/8, IIRC, and the AT-AT at 3/5. I recall doing the research to make a lot of stats as close as possible to canon, though looking at Wookieepedia, the AT-AT should be more like 4/6. But then again, Wookieepedia puts the cargo capacity of an AT-AT at over 3,000 tons, with the AT-ST getting a 500-ton cargo capacity. Neither of which are even POSSIBLE in BT tech, so....
- Herb
- Herb
Marissa Fairborn, daughter of Flint and Lady Jaye. That may have been retconned out though.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Marissa_Faireborn
to be fair a lot of the wookiepedia entries on the technical specs come from that cross section books, which were being written by some of the most ardent "argue and 'win' debates on the internet" types (http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWICS.html) (more (http://www.st-v-sw.net/Warsiegroup.html)), and they tended to inflate the specs to make SW stuff superior to everyone. its where the 'gigaton turbolasers' came from for example. and a lot of their figures are just weird to start with. star destroyers apparently burn more fuel per second in their reactors than they mass as a ship for example.
when adapting SW stuff to any gaming ruleset you pretty much have to throw out their wiki stats and go by general feel. at best you can use the weapon mounts data.. but even that is suspect sometimes (i once got banned because i edited the liberator class cruiser to have a more reasonable weapons mount, based on an analysis i'd found of its videogame stats vs other ships in the setting. it had incorrectly been listed as mounting more guns than a Super Star destroyer.. because someone had listed the firepower values from the game as the # of guns) the page was a mod's pet project, and he banned me for half a year because i edited the page twice a month apart.. citing a rule that punishes edit wars that take place within the span of a day. and he banned me in such a way that my entire IP address was blocked, so i couldn't appeal, despite being told that i was allowed to. so so bad info can find its way onto that wiki and stick around) and that page still has the wrong info years later
Eh. We eventually came up with figures that made them work for us.
Of course, they ended up sucking when compared to BT, but not everyone in the CNAZ managed to surpass the Star League the way Syberia did.
- Herb
i guess now that this thread is winding down i really should start cracking on my own Nebula California Star System. writing up the IE exploration report part has been tougher than i'd like.
AT-ATs, AT-ST's, and the like don't have the same kind of presence as a BT mech would have.. they're slow, clumsy, and ungainly.
and according to some interviews, the studio had wanted to do a GI Joe film originally but the start of gulf war 2 had Hasbro suggest Transformers instead. i suspect that much of the military side of the film retains a bit of GI Joe DNA.
i guess now that this thread is winding down i really should start cracking on my own Nebula California Star System. writing up the IE exploration report part has been tougher than i'd like.
Considering Marissa's heritage, maybe a boarding school or something? She may have been staying with relatives the whole time too. But yes, her age is of some dispute. I think its a fun nod to the other series as it is.
I know this is coming out of the blue. Are the bimodal AutoMech "LAM"s different from the ones normal ones aside from the mode difference (Aside more than one mode, illegal ground/air/sea etc abilities)? Do Bimodal have less criticals used up vs the normal LAMs? Aside from ignoring 1st damage gyro, do the ground AutoMechs have advantage construction wise over the tri-mode ones?
So you rounded down? That's cool. 5/8 works for me. :) I'm not sure about the cargo weights. I saw 500 kilograms for that AT-ST and several thousand tons for the AT-ACT. I can kind of believe it considering how massive the AT-AT style Walkers are. They don't even fit in a single hex space so they're not possible with BT Tech. But we can make something that looks like it. >:D
I'm still going over the Syberian Rules PDF. I'm still a bit concerned with how nerfed WiGE Mechs Cruise/Flank speed is. They're using the same Jump Jets/Jump Rockets as Fighter Mechs but they move so much slower. I know you don't want anything like AirMechs but they really shouldn't be so slow. Not when HoverMechs get a +2 to their Cruising MP. Speed bump or not, may suggest giving WiGEMechs fluffed reason for why they're so much slower than FighterMechs?
Are AutoMechs with Vehicle to Vehicle Conversions like that used by the Thorizer possible?
Would FighterMechs with a Prop-Flight Quirk follow the rules for Prop-Air Craft?
Can a FighterMech mount both Turbo-Prop and a Jump Jet? May I presume that Turbo-Props don't work in space? Unless they're based on the Spitfire. :))
For the purposes of damage, does it matter or not if the Prop is located in the Front?
FighterMechs require 3 Jump Jets. Presumably so they can get into space. Can non space going AirMechs mount fewer Jump Jets? Without having to resort to the Illegal Quirk?
https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/d/d2/ROTFtoy-RansackScout.jpg
http://images.shoutwiki.com/gbwiki/8/8c/GoBotsToyZero.jpg
Does it matter how VTOL Mechs have their Rotors in Mech Mode when it comes to VTOL Movement in Mech Mode and terrain restrictions?
Out and available...
Folded up but could possibly be unfolded while still in Mech Mode...
Locked out of the way...
I ask because if they're always out, would VTOL Mechs be prohibited from entering certain terrain, like Level 2 Woods in either mode?
Out or in, are VTOL Mechs prohibited from using VTOL Movement, in Mech Mode, while in terrain prohibited to VTOLs? Or are the like AirMechs? They can walk into woods and fly out but not fly in or through.
If VTOLMech's rotors are out of the way in Mech mode would they have their own Custom Quirk like; Locked Rotors; This VTOL Mech can't use VTOL Movement while in Mech Mode or something?
Naval Mech movement rules says that Naval Mechs can't use their vehicle motive systems in Mech Mode. I thought it was ruled that Naval Mechs could use their floats in Mech Mode because of Depthcharge. https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:ROTF_Depthcharge_concept.jpg Has that been changed? ???
I'm presuming there's no prohibition from converting while under water?
i guess now that this thread is winding down i really should start cracking on my own Nebula California Star System. writing up the IE exploration report part has been tougher than i'd like.
I like that [the Star Empire stuff] sucked compared to BT. I don't think everything needs to be as good or better, or even equal to.
Did you mean to reference Tactical Handbook when discussing what Physical Weapons were allowed? Since Tactical Handbooks is before 3060 would items in it be available?
It just hit me. FighterMechs have a minimum 3 Jumping MP requirement. It's just the Jump MP that needs to be at least 3. So 2 Jump Rockets providing 4 Jump MP would be legal. Right?
Would the Water Lander Quirk be available to VTOL Mechs?
Never mind. It's a nope. Would of been nice but oh well. Maybe when we get to the Third League the rules will change. And thank you for the credit Herb. I'm glad I could help contribute. :)
For me, I figure the AT-AT is a long-range armored energy artillery platform with inherent troop transport ability. It is taller to see over the curve of the local planet, compared to putting the guns closer to the ground (like the turbolaser artillery seen in Attack of the Clones). There is an Earth horizon distance calculator here (https://calculator.academy/horizon-distance-calculator/). Basic equation is:
horizon distance = SQRT[(Planet radius + your height)^2 - (Planet radius)^2]
...
AT-STs are little more than 2-legged jeeps, with a pair of anti-infantry direct-fire weapons on either side and the equivalent of a grenade launcher in the chin. That chin gun was mainly used to back-shoot the others.
And I need to make more Mobile Structures for my Mortal Engines planet. They were completely illegal due to these Mobile Structures having a speed higher than 1, but it was fun
I know this is coming out of the blue. Are the bimodal AutoMech "LAM"s different from the ones normal ones aside from the mode difference (Aside more than one mode, illegal ground/air/sea etc abilities)? Do Bimodal have less criticals used up vs the normal LAMs? Aside from ignoring 1st damage gyro, do the ground AutoMechs have advantage construction wise over the tri-mode ones?
There aren't any Trimodal AutoMechs. Not that I wouldn't mind. AutoMechs also don't get a free gyro hit. AutoMechs can mount more items than LAMs or Quadvees. Ground AutoMechs also have more variety in motive systems than Quadvees. Tracked, Wheeled, and Hover AutoMechs also don't have to pay for motive systems.
Props are in the Support Vehicle rules (in Tech Manual), if I remember right...
Right... I thought you were looking for the rules that exist.
I had one last question, is it possible to have a mini Mech remoted from the parent mech.
I got the impression from the original fan story, that it was possible to do that so the auto mech can be able to go into smaller spaces promoting into the smaller machine into like say human ruins for stuff.
I understand the limitations of the rules, so I wasn't sure if that was a possibility.p
Erf! Mobile Structures! Have fun with that! Did you apply any special rule to getting speeds over 1 MP?
- Herb
I had one last question, is it possible to have a mini Mech remoted from the parent mech.
I got the impression from the original fan story, that it was possible to do that so the auto mech can be able to go into smaller spaces promoting into the smaller machine into like say human ruins for stuff.
I understand the limitations of the rules, so I wasn't sure if that was a possibility.p
Wookieepedia put AT-ATs at 25m in length, so they definitely fit in one BT hex. We set them up as Superheavies. They're in Welcome to the Nebula California. We even got in the cargo for speeder bikes.
Count how many WiGE units we have in BT, and in Transformers, and you may notice I have *none* in the entire TRO. WiGEs are just so damned niche that even the Syberians found little to no use for them. If they're nerfed, that simply reinforces their rarity. Plus, in BT, when did the WiGE ever get to be as fast as fighters?
Nope. The Syberians went straight to Mechs. (The Thorizer had been a failure a good century and a half before they came here, but converting 'Mechs were fresh, new territory to them, and they went all-in there.)
I don't think that Quirk exists, does it? And where are the rules for prop aircraft these days?
Y'know, I know we discussed this someplace, but can you link me what I said back then?
Honestly, I'd just use the VTOL AutoMech rules if you want the props to actually be functional, or a Fighter AutoMech with a low Jump MP if you want something that works at prop fighter speeds--at which point you can just "fluff" it to say it has turboprop engines in place of its jump jets.
Ah! According to my Total Warfare, the minimum Safe Thrust of 3 is for VERTICAL takeoff. Horizontal liftoff has no such restriction, beyond needing runways. Also of note: Prop-Driven aircraft have a max velocity of 1 on the High Altitude/Space scale maps, and even then can only fly at the Ground and Altitude 1 Rows (so, max altitude for them is basically 35,000 meters). You can build a Fighter AutoMech with only one Jump Jet, fluff it as a propeller aircraft in fighter mode, and have fun puttering over the combat zone.
For the purposes of gameplay (and our sanity), it doesn't matter, really. I mean, bear in mind that in order to achieve their speeds, VTOLMechs tend to end up putting rotors in almost every torso location, even though their vee forms typically have just one big rotor and a tail rotor. Since the rules enable them to use such rotors to fly even in Mech form (albeit more slowly), we can just handwave that, however their rotors are actually stored, they can pop out as needed for that feature. (Otherwise, I'd be making special rules for each and every transforming helicopter toy out there, and that is anti-fun.)
Yeah, because just look at that image again! That's NOT buoyant! Anything allowing for standing on the water, all Jesus-like, would sink unless it was a broader platform, like a 'Mech-scaled surfboard. And Water-ski mobility requires constant high-speed movement to maintain itself, which WOULD be a good place for WiGE AutoMechs... But, again, the Syberians didn't make many WiGEMechs, and I could think of no examples to work from.
Nah. Otherwise, the various BoatMechs would never be able to transition.
Please don't get mad if anything in the possibly-upcoming sequel product (Plenty of Room in the Nebula California) happens to tackle a similar concept. (I wrote it way early this year/late last year, and submitted it months ago. Still don't know if/when it will be published.)
Except for their shielding tech, the effectiveness of their "proton torpedoes" (I think), and their super-alarming, super-massive tech and population base, yeah they suck. Also that "Fortune" stuff, which may be another localized magic effect.
Yeah, I meant Tactical Operations, not the long OOP Handbook.
Yup. Though remember that Jump Rocket MPs cannot exceed running MP. You'll see at least one FighterMech in the TRO section that carries Jump Rockets which would otherwise exceed its Run MP. The excess point of MP/thrust is basically "wasted" as a result. Rules is rules!
Is that a real quirk, or another one I talked about adding and never got around to? (If the latter, let me know where I said it.)
I *think* I may have bent that rule at least once in the TRO, but only in terms of mounting non-weapon items. In all honestly, I would relax the rules if I didn't feel I was opening a floodgate of potential problems there...
And of course you got credit; you helped me refine the rules as I went through them again (and, given the above, may have to remind me if/where/what I said previously that I may have missed.)
Yeah, basically, we treated our AT-AT expy as a superheavy Mech, so it stood about 18m tall, while the AT-ST was an ultra-light 12-tonner.
That horizon distance calculator's neat; basically shows that the typical BattleMech sees about three times as far as a foot trooper.
That's partly true. The Syberian vehicle conversion gear masses DO allow you to avoid having to mount Tracks as separate items, but it's more of a catch-all system, in that the tracks are just counted as part of the conversion gear's weight. This makes a Syberian TrackedMech's total conversion costs about 25% lighter than those of the QuadVee (plus 1 ton for the Syberian AutoMech cockpits, as QuadVees use 4-ton cockpits.) The savings is even better for Syberian WheeledMechs vs Wheeled QuadVees. And then, yeah, there's the added motive types not seen in conversion forms in the IS. How the Syberians came up with conversion systems superior to the Clans? They had time to perfect the tech before they all managed to die out. And they still force you to pay for jump jets, Rotors, and UMUs, so any units using those end up suffering just a wee bit more.
And no, no tri-modes. That's in the back FAQ, along with what one can do instead to deal with such multimodals.
- Herb
One thing I missed earlier: you need 3/5 thrust to get out of the atmosphere. 2/3 will get you off the ground, but not past the interface...
I tried to get to Wookiepedia but got here instead.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/All_Terrain_Armored_Cargo_Transport
It puts the length at 34.90 meters
Not many and they don't which is why the question about jump jets not providing as much thrust. Maybe they're turboprops? Do WiGE Mechs follow the same movement rules as WiGEs? If so it costs 5 MP to take off and they have to move forward 5 hexes. That's 10 MP Total. WiGE Mechs would need a minimum of 7 JJ or 4 JR to give them the minimum 7/11 or 8/12 movement to stay airborne.
It was the example quirk you used in the PDF. TW gives some movement restrictions and TM the construction rules.
My search foo is working today. :) I found these posts way back in the old Nebula California thread. Here's the main parts about it...
I thought that was hilarious! :)) And then she went and made one!
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/syberian-dron-automech-ransak'/msg1054611/#msg1054611
Would this make him a TriModal FighterMech with an AirMech mode?
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:ROTF_Ransack_BattleMode.JPG
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:ROTFtoy-RansackScout.jpg
Makes sense. It would be challenging to make special rules for everything. Although, I did wonder about location swapping to put Rotors in the arms but I think I'll stick with retractable blades fluffed to look like rotors.
It looks like buoyant to me but it also looks like it's moving at flank speed. I'd probably have him move at flank speed or double the piloting modifiers. Otherwise they're going to have to have UMUs or they'd have to sink in Mech Mode and wade ashore. I'm pretty sure sinking would cause damage when they hit bottom.
I know he's supposed to be a starfighter but he kind of looks like a WiGE.
:o A sequel? Ooooo
Shields and Proton torpedoes are nice. Did you stat out concussion missiles?
I kinda thought so. :) Are items from Tactical Handbook available?
Might want to include that in the PDF. Jump MP can't exceed Running MP is different from number of JJ/JR can't exceed Running MP. Right now, it looks 4/6/6 / 12/18 using 6 Jump Rockets compared to 4/6/6 / 6/9 using 3 Jump Rockets. Which is an easy mistake to make since 1 Rotor provides 1.5 MP.
It was the second example you gave in the PDF.
Being able to mount non-weapons would be a help to small vehicle drones. Weapons would've been nice but I suppose I could always use the Equivalent Weapon Table in Combat Equipment. >:D
How much would that AT-PT weight? It felt too big for BA but too small for a mech. I suppose it'd be 2 ton BA now. It would be nice if automatic grenade launchers were available to mechs and larger vehicles.
Can Tracked and Wheeled AutoMechs be amphibious? I'm sure they can drive along the bottom but I was wondering about the floating on the water. Or would they just mount UMUs and convert to Mech mode to get across?
I guess, then, we're back to not being able to say for sure what specs are what. Although, IMO, anything less than 40m (and possibly as big as 44m) probably can be considered a single-hex item, thanks to rounding and the fact that most units can't hope to fill all that space. Still, I stuck it at 120 tons, making it a superheavy, which I *think* gives it an Oversized Quirk...while ALSO giving it Narrow Profile, because the things height-to-width ratio is so ridiculous...
Y'know... After all this, I've come to realize...why the hell am I even dealing with WiGEs if the Syberians never made any? Consider the WiGEs cut, and their options closed. Thanks for helping me declutter this mess.
This is what happens when you keep adding to stuff you originally wrote years ago and never bother to reread the whole thing again. *sigh*
Dear Cat! I miss FedComGirl! She could bog one down in endless question-and-quote threads, and she could latch onto arguments well past their expiration date, but she was just so EARNEST! I would've made her a PT/FC back in those days if I wasn't positive her thoroughness would reduce product development to a crippled snail's pace! ... Your posting style is similar to hers, sometimes, RifleMech. (Are you two related? ;) )
*looks at those specs* ... I just may have to add that Ransack biplane to the TRO as an homage. Damn. This project is already 90.6K words/220 pages long!
Nah. I'm not breaking the "no more than two modes" rule. I'd just pick one, and the wings-out one is really, when you look at it, basically the Seeker template. (Which is, of course, funny in that the Bayformer version of Ransack is actually called a Seeker.)
Why not? Cat knows I picked a number of blade-wielding minis to represent VTOLMechs in BattleMech mode. And we also have fun bits like "Blinder's" rotor-style combine on the arm as a physical combat weapon.
Right. It's moving to stay like that, like a water-skier. But that's not buoyancy; that's momentum and surface tension. The thing would sink the moment it stopped "skiing" in robot mode. I made it one of the Mariner class.
Yes. It does. A lot like Grievous's fighter, too, I think. But you've already convinced me the WiGE is impractical and pointless here, so we're saved!
Yup. A bunch of new worlds.
No. That was Paul's bit, and we were working on a tight deadline.
Nothing that didn't end up in TacOps and TW, and then only using the TW/TO rules. TH is obsolete.
I thought I was rather explicit in what the various systems did.
Blah.
Jump Rockets follow all the same construction and gameplay rules as an Improved Jump Jet of equal weight, but provides 2 Jump MP per Rocket, rather than 1.
Y'know I'm not gonna enforce that kind of rule, but you already taught me that Weapon Equivalency Tables were a BAD idea. I was working on a TRO1945 ruleset that would have done away with that stuff.
No idea. Could be a 10-ton Mech.
I'm gonna look into the options a bit, but the notion of using the Support Vehicle chassis mods as a basis intrigues me.
- Herb
I'd go with the older stats. I would think 120 tons would be oversized. The narrow profile would fit the AT-AT well.
You're welcome, I guess. :-\ So I guess making the Snowspeeder as a WiGE is out.
Yes, and she can be very earnest and have a difficult time dropping things.
That would be cool. I think she'd get a thrill out of that.
I suppose but I still like the idea of a WiGE Mech. Maybe more as a variant of the HoverMech instead of a Fighter Mech?
Oh. I wonder what they would have been stated.
You were. In the thread you limited the Jump MP to the Running MP with any exceeding being wasted. The PDF says,
That gives room for faster speeds if the number of Jump Rockets can equal the Running MP.
I don't know if they were bad but I do like your rules for converting RL to BT. With the CE Table though there's already plenty of references saying that Infantry and Vehicle weapons are the same. And then the rules go and do something else. ::)
Too late; they were published years ago.
Star Empire is 80-something light years thataway.
Maybe. I think the mods perma-banned her from the forums, though. She may never know.
Hovers or Fighters only would I say. Some WiGEs in real life double as actual aircraft already, since they use most of the same engineering principles.
*shrug*
I added some polished up wording about them just to be sure.
No, they were. You beat me over the head with them far too many times and so I decided to ditch equivalency entirely. Nothing but pain that way.
- Herb
I don't know. Maybe it just needs the right inspiration to revisit it?
That's what I heard. Caused her to lose a lot of interest in BT. If you decide to include it I'll send her a message and let her know.
I have read that. I think trying to make them work might be a pain though. Just look at all the problems AirMechs have and these would be going faster. I think I'd go with Hovers. I would lean towards having them use IS Partial Wings as a combination wings and thrusters. They'd give WiGE movement but not AirMech Movement. Each crit hit drops the MP. Although, I want to lean towards allowing limited flight if jump jets are installed but not as high as AirMechs. Maybe +1 elevation per jump jet to a max of 8 elevations with the same +1 MP cost per hex. Then WiGE Mech could slowly fly over trees and buildings. I think that'd be a nice in between Hover and Fighter without being as good as an AirMech.
Did the Syberians create Tripods? I haven't seen any so far. I was wondering about the restrictions against tripods and wondered wouldn't a trimaran be a good vehicle mode for a Float Tripod, a Vedette Light Tank for a tracked tripod, and a three wheeler for a wheeled Tripod?
Go ahead. I'm not doing it this time! I need to be doing work that actually earns money here!
Huh. Well, if you can contact her, I tell you what: Ask her if it's okay for me to add that one in. I shouldn't be nicking someone else's fan material without them having a say (I used everyone else's in this thread because that basically felt like the right way to go, given the stated purpose of this discussion, and I feel like the permission was implicit--not to mention that everyone in here has the right to tell me to take them out, if desired.)
That we'd even now still be debating the concept tells me that deleting them was the right call.
The Syberians have access to tripod designs, and can make them into convertibles, but in the spirit of what we are emulating here, we simply haven't seen any (ARE there any tripod Cybertronians out there? I couldn't find any in a quick search). So, this is one case where you can make up an all-new model.
- Herb
I can do that. I'll let you know what she says.
I suppose but they're still an interesting concept.
That's cool. Nothing official that I know of. I did find this one based on the Focke-Wulf Triebflügel. It'd be a FighterMech ;D and probably the only way it'd really work. It'd also make Emplacement Mechs seem perfectly normal.
I also found a Starscream as a Fokker Triplane to go along with Ransack if you like.
Would you want any other Prop FighterMechs?
Would Tripods still have 4 ton cockpits?
Would there been civilian vehicles that had automech technology. They'd need a cockpit of some kind wouldn't they?
Not say its worth our while having transforming airliner, but be cool to seen conventional air support vehicle transform and deploy it's MiniMech battalion/platoon.
Fun image I drew to fill some dead space in the rules attached!That's auto picture, it looks like the insignias are transforming from left to right. :D
- Herb
That's auto picture, it looks like the insignias are transforming from left to right. :D
Cool.
To each their own, I guess. I don't feel they were worth the effort in game terms. They basically are aircraft that function like hovercraft, and we had both of those things already.
EmplacementMechs will NEVER be normal as far as these IE folks are concerned... (Interesting take on the Aerialbots, there...)
Ah, so many of those unofficials are so awesome; shame they cost an arm and a leg. I'll pass on more prop-fighter Mechs for now. I just thought it'd be neat to include FCG's Ransack expy since she went through the trouble there.
Nope. All 'mech-type AutoMechs need the 3-ton AutoMech cockpit to be driven by the AutoMech AI. They don't need the extra seat.
- Herb
Would there been civilian vehicles that had automech technology. They'd need a cockpit of some kind wouldn't they?
Not say its worth our while having transforming airliner, but be cool to seen conventional air support vehicle transform and deploy it's MiniMech battalion/platoon.
They have civilian units, sure, but if they put an AutoMech brain in it, they left no room for a human copilot. Otherwise, why wouldn't ALL AutoMechs have a seat for human pilots? The Syberians REALLY trusted their self-driving vehicles! Passengers would go into a cargo space, if any.
Fun image I drew to fill some dead space in the rules attached!
- Herb
I always though passengers had to be in Infantry Bay of some kind.
I'll play around with them some more. Maybe I'll have a world where the Star Empire crossed with Syberians? We could throw in other crossovers for kicks. ;D
Yeah, it would be neat if you included it.
Cool! Here's the Vedette Tripod TankMech. I went with the 3 ton cockpit but I also added 10% to the conversion system for the third leg and rounded up. It ended up coming out even. I also added a conversion slot and track slot for the center leg. I also tried to put it in your format.
Wouldn't the cockpit be replaced by the Drone's CPUs? I also imagine there'd be cargo planes and other transports. Although an AirlinerMech would be cool. I'd imagine many of the passenger versions would have been reconfigured to tankers or cargo planes.
I imagine there'd be other kinds or civilian vehicles/mechs with most pressed into military service. Like a Agro Mech swapping the harvester for a mine sweeper and cargo bay for mine dispensers.
Humans don't have to ride in the head do they? The Star Empire puts people in any location. The Sandman LAM also had those rescue pods carrying 2 passengers per .5 tons. And wasn't there a rule somewhere were extra crew weigh .5 tons each? That could be three different passenger classes, infantry, second class, and first class.
I always though passengers had to be in Infantry Bay of some kind.
Infantry can ride in cargo compartments.
The Sandman LAM was a fan design from battletechnology. It had a pair of 1ton infantry bays fluffed as search and rescue pods.
We're talking really early "we had to rename from battledroids its now battletech" stuff here. I'm not sure they'd clarified the no way nrantry bays on a mech thing at the time. Plus again, fan design in a fan publication. The battletechnology fanzine was full of stuff the rules didn't cover yet, and which saw no official stance, despite the magazine technically being recognized by FASA.
(In fact i beleive that the issie in question came out before the clans were introduced)
Suit yourself. The California Nebula is a crossover playground. We just presented each system with a lacking in FTL as a means of keeping franchises separate and "unspoiled." Things get very weird when they mix and match (as we saw in WttNC's opening fic, when Grimdark killed one of the Fellowship.)
As soon as she gives the okay, sure.
I'd have let you get away with the conversion system staying the same mass as normal. Tripods already take the hit on tonnage for their configurations in the increased internal structure and armor mass. The added slots I would keep, yes. That is, if I were to introduce tripod AutoMechs beyond the Emplacement and non-converting ones. I just didn't want to add more complexity to something that we don't really see in our Transformers. That's why the convertible schemes tended to get chassis locked to Biped or Biped/Quad limits. (My War of the Tripods adventure shows some neat tripod 'Mechs that could easily be AutoMech-driven, and fluffed out as a heretofore-undiscovered "alien" faction.)
A few things worth note: Cargo space on BattleMechs is not that new a concept, but is generally illegal in standard unit construction, especially in the case of bays for infantry. (And yeah, Wrangler, you'd ideally want an infantry bay for human passengers, because that represents a space in which there's seating, maybe some safety equipment, and gear stowage compartments.) The Syberians would have generally kept any human-transporting capacity to their vehicle AutoMechs, eschewing the conversion capabilities for more comfortable passenger/cargo space. Converting vehicle AutoMechs could also have some space set aside like that, but it would only be considered safe as long as the unit remained in vehicle mode. (After that, Syberian health/life insurance companies probably just wouldn't cover.)
As I indicated earlier in this thread (somewhere), the only reason you aren't seeing civilian/human-passenger units among the AutoMechs of this Syberia TRO is that they've naturally fallen into disuse by the time IE's teams arrived. Covering units such as those would almost certainly require a Syberian version of the Support Vehicle TRO, which would skew toward more vehicle/aerospace AutoMech-driven units than 'Mechs.
(I know nothing of this Sandman LAM. Was that an official design someplace?)
They can; it's just not as safe or comfortable. That wouldn't stop a Syberian AutoMech from putting their smaller drones in the same space, though. That's how we get our deployer units, after all.
- Herb
Funny. Who was the LD back then? Because I was told waaaaaaay back when I started, by Bryan Nystul, that infantry bays on a BattleMech were verbotten. (Because I tried to make a quadruped APC called the Clydesdale for Clan Hell's Horses.)
- Herb
Very true, but canonizing the Sandman without changes sounds like it would have undone that restriction, allowing my Clydesdale Quad OmniMech to ride again! Sixty-ton Trojan Horse BattleMech for the win!
- Herb
What you need is a SAR Quad Battlemech, with 3 slots of emergency equipment divided between the Head and Center torso. Call it the St Bernard ;)
What you need is a SAR Quad Battlemech, with 3 slots of emergency equipment divided between the Head and Center torso. Call it the St Bernard ;)
Oops! :)
They could slow boat into each other.
She said it was okay.
That'd be cool. It'd give extra tonnage to something else. Those tripods are net and would make for good minimech carriers. :thumbsup:
I can see passenger areas in Mechs. I can even see quarters being installed in Mechs. If the Marco Exploration Mech can have a fold out two person cabin why wouldn't a Uni Cargo Mech be converted into an RV? I don't think many such mechs would still exist though with everything being converted to a war use. It might be nice to have rules for that as a last remaining example or to play around before the Syberians were killed and left.
Does anyone remember the movie Robot Wars? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot_Wars_(film) The Scorpion Mech carried passengers on tours. There could be SafariMechs carrying passengers with portals/windows though their faux flesh, to study all the native flora and fauna.
I forget where, but there was also a rule about extra crew/passengers weighing .5 tons each. Between single seat, dual seat and 10 for a infantry compartment there could be different passenger classes. Actually, you can have 13 passenger seats (75kg each) per ton. They're not carrying gear so you can get more people in, maybe. The princess might have brought her matched luggage with industrial sized hairdryer. :D
Yeah. Although when converted to vehicle mode, it'd be easier for infantry to load and deploy without boarding ramps, ladders, or ziplines.
That'd be a fun Mech for XTRO:Boondoggles; The Clan Edition! ;D The early Fire Moth could be included too for carrying infantry in arm pods.
I don't know that you'd be canonizing the Sandman LAM but the door to Mechs carrying infantry was opened with Clan LAMs carrying a passenger. That was followed by TRO:3050U's fluff for the Fire Moth and then your Tripods in War of the Tripods carrying battle armor. I don't think Syberian AutoMechs carrying passengers would cause a problem. Besides, there is the Illegal Quirk. ^-^
That was quick! (I half expected a "no". Not sure if she'd be mad at me or something.)
At least one of my WotT Tripods did that, I think. (Although, in their case, they were bona fide battlesuited troops.)
I'd leave that to you guys, or a random bunch of "pre-holocaust" Syberian machines that didn't survive to modern times, but were built to ferry humans and such. Some might be commercial/industrial precursors to the AutoMechs of today, even.
Probably something the AxiMaL and PresiDom factions might have had, maybe.
Dunno where that might have been in canon rules.
Right. My thinking is that it would be just like how the Transformers handled things, where they arrive on the scene in vehicle mode, wait for the fleshlings to get out, and go robot mode only then. (As opposed to the one or two GoBots eps where they could hold humans inside them the whole time.
Understand that I'm not canonizing anything. I'm just seeing what WAS canon, which the Sandman apparently wasn't. War of the Tripods was also considered non-canon (Halloween Gag), even though it was meant to be canon-compatible, like so many of my fun projects.
[SPECIAL REMINDER TO ALL: Aside from Necromo Nightmare, XTR: 1945 (sort of), and XTR: Royal Fantasy (maybe?), all April 1 and Halloween gag projects written or developed by me are officially considered non-canon, BUT were specially made to be "canon-compatible" as much as possible, so they could be seamlessly integrated into an otherwise above-board campaign. This also applies to my "fan-made" stuff, such as the Reign of the Tetakuni adventure and this Syberia TRO.]
Also, the Illegal Quirk's drawback is right in its name: Illegal. This means that the unit violates extant game rules in some way and thus cannot be canonized as a working game element. At least, not for very long.
- Herb
This whole board and your great book, makes me wish there wear more scaled Transformers so I can play them in Battletech.
I recall BattleTechnology being canon for a time... Granted, that time is long past now. :-\
She wasn't mad at you that I know of. She was surprised you remembered her.
I'm sure at least one did. :)
Wasn't there an episode or two where one of the Decepticon Jets carried someone in their cockpit in both modes?
I believe it used to be but that was changed a really long time ago. It'd be nice if more things from it were brought back into canon.
True. The unit does violate the rules. That doesn't mean the unit can't exist though. I think it's also a way to include something that TPTB don't want to bother with. Like the original version of the Fire Moth and Clan LAMs.
I recall BattleTechnology being canon for a time... Granted, that time is long past now. :-\
With the exception of Rajah, I have minis for all of XTRO:Royal Fantasy ;D ;D
I have a rather impressive memory....sometimes. Decades of grudge-holding against companies and old classmates, you know. ;)
Yup. The "Harvester" has some 24 tons or cargo space, and I think I had the fluff suggesting the Lift Hoists were being used to fill and empty them, mimicking the tentacles of the various Martian machines.
I can't recall one. The closest I remember them coming is picking up a human, starting to transform, and tossing the human briefly into the air so they can then "catch" them in their cockpit/cabin sections. Starscream did that with Dr. Arkeville, Hot Rod with Daniel. Even in the live-action films, Bumblebee was shown tossing Sam out as part of his transformation, transforming to bot mode, then tossing him/catching him as he transformed back....in super slo-mo.
I wouldn't really no. That depends on some writer/dev being okay with it, which may venture into legal territory as well, given the source. Old copyrights, fractured licenses and whatnot.
It's more a matter of the Illegal/Non-Functional Item Quirks reflecting in-universe attempts to get around known rules limitations, thereby explaining WHY they're illegal. The Scorpion and Champion LAM projects, for instance, explain why, in universe, these things just didn't work, while providing stats as they would have been otherwise. (The old "looks good on paper; fails utterly in practice" routine.)
Necessary. As a source few authors have access to in their entirety, with a liberal mix of articles in varying degrees of quality, it would take a fresh run of review and playtest to canonize what was in those mags.
Someone else would likely want to tackle that one. (I *did* think it could get the multi-volume treatment of the Primitives XTRs, but then I lost any say in the matter.) Honestly, after writing, editing, illustrating, and laying out an ENTIRE 220-page TRO more or less solo--credit where it's due to those of you who assisted with your own designs, minis, and various forms of input--I'm kinda burned out on TROs for the time being.
Get on that, IW! (Would that be a BattleMech or an IndyMech? I know BT has at least one emergency rescue Mech.)
- Herb
You should make a variant as a salvage mech given the nature of the Automechs. Since everyone well..dead.
I'd need a 30-tonner to fit a Salvage Arm in, and according to MML 0.48.0 Salvage Arms can't be placed in torso locations or legs. Since this is a quad, it only has torso locations and legs.Technically Speaking, Salvage Arms have no function really. I know their suppose to , but rules wise they don't. It's one those glaring gaps in the rules that as far I can tell from old MechManuel onward, never fixed. It should be able to act as second pair of arms, with properly bonus to gripping or doing repair work with hand tools etc.
A Lift Hoist did fit, but in order to fit the AutoMech transformation equipment I'd need to remove the Environmental Sealing on the IndustrialMech.
If I used a standard Mech, I could fit it into 25 tons, 5/8/3, 4.5 tons standard armor, a Recon Camera, a Searchlight, a Lift Hoist, with 3.5 tons and 22 crits left over. That is the best version of an AutoMech rescue Mech I can make that is small.
As a 50-ton Standard Mech, I can get 5/8/3, 11.5 tons standard armor, a Recon Camera, a Searchlight, a Lift Hoist, with 10 tons and 27 crits left over.
I remember those but I thought there was more. I could be wrong though. It's been a long time since I got to watch Transformers. :(
Since other things have made their way into canon I don't think licenses and copyrights is that much of a problem.
I totally get the old routine. In some cases though it works in universe. It's just a bad idea. Like mounting an AC/5, mostly, in the center torso. It worked. It was just easily disabled. There's also the Marco's collapsible two man cabin. It worked but I doubt we'll ever get rules for it. There's a few instances where the fluff allows things the rules wouldn't. And a few where changes in the rules make them no longer legal. The Scorpion and Champion LAMs, would be legal under older rules. ^-^ They may not be a great idea but they'd of been legal. I think the rules are more a set of in universe standards. Most abide by them but we do have Fractional Accounting and FrankenMechs. Which along with the quirks are as far as I think TPTB want to go.
Catalyst doesn't have a copy of them?
Being burned out is totally understandable. You did put in a lot of work on this. Great work though, and much appreciated. :thumbsup: A series of Boondoggles would be really great though. The Sandman, or something similar, and Clan LAMs would be great for them. As could the Marco with cabin, and infantry carrying Mechs. Maybe one day. :)
Sandman is from Battletechnology. Its essentially modified / one-off Phoenix Hawk LAM with no weapons with it's large laser (gun) a very claustrophobia cylinder which it MechWarrior/Pilot uses to load people their rescuing from prisons or from captures. The person knows he coming, because usually a device is sent a head of time to the rescuee with recording of Metallica's Enter the Sandman.
Consider it done:...
Went with IndustrialMech to reflect its civilian purposes. A Combat Mech would have likely been retrofitted with weapons and lost in combat (though the free Environmental Sealing was nice).
You should make a variant as a salvage mech given the nature of the Automechs. Since everyone well..dead.
I'd need a 30-tonner to fit a Salvage Arm in, and according to MML 0.48.0 Salvage Arms can't be placed in torso locations or legs. Since this is a quad, it only has torso locations and legs.
A Lift Hoist did fit, but in order to fit the AutoMech transformation equipment I'd need to remove the Environmental Sealing on the IndustrialMech.
Technically Speaking, Salvage Arms have no function really. I know their suppose to , but rules wise they don't. It's one those glaring gaps in the rules that as far I can tell from old MechManuel onward, never fixed. It should be able to act as second pair of arms, with properly bonus to gripping or doing repair work with hand tools etc.
That's all I can readily recall. Meanwhile, I know some of the Renegades GoBots held people inside them as hostages/human shields.
*shrug*
The two-man cabin on the Marco, I think, was a reference to its cargo bay, and likely could have been ruled as a field tent or pop-up camper, or something like that, which fit inside. So that would have kept the Marco legal.
*shrug*
Maybe.
...Was that really in its fluff?
Posted the Sandman LAM's here:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/sandman-lam/new/#new
If it was just a tent and camping equipment carried in the cargo bay that'd be fine but why make that a standard feature? The text says its "a two-man cabin, a collapsible rear torso unit only usable when the Marco was stationary." To me it sounds similar to the Collapsible Command Module.
AToW does have a pop-up camper weighing .5 tons for 6 people that can be expanded. It can't be used in TW though. :-\ I just apply the rules for that to the Marco's cabin. I doubt we'll get anything official. It's peace tech. I can see military uses though.
The first Sandman was based on the Stinger LAM and the pilot played a song to let the scientist and his family know he was there to pick them up. It was kind of small for the job though. Two of the kids had to squeeze into one pod and there were injuries to other family members. (I wonder if the pods being mounted in the arms had some roll in that.) So Snord's Irregulars licensed the idea and built a larger one based on the Phoenix Hawk LAM. The fluff ends saying that if you see a Stinger LAM or Phoenix Hawk LAM playing that song to keep an eye on your prisoners.
Are Reinforced Structure and Ram Plates available? Reinforced Structure weighs twice as much, doesn't take any added crits and was prototyped in 3057. The Ram Plate won't be introduced until a century later but it is a melee weapon for quads. It also requires the Reinforced Structure. I just wondered as the Ram Plate popped in my head and it'd be a good fit for a BeastMech.
Meh. Even a pop-up is too spacious for what it says the Marco's does. So, who knows? And ultimately, who cares?
Talk about telegraphing your moves!
As the rules are written, Reinforced Structure is possible, as it is an item featured in TechManual and TacOps pre-3060. But the Ram Plate, unless it has shown up in either, would be out. Unfortunately, as the Ram Plate is a weapon system that requires mounting in multiple hit locations, would be disallowed on a convertible AutoMech. A non-converting quad with a Reinforced Structure would be possible--but only if the Ram Plate has made it into the TM/TO books.
As I am okay with those conditionals, I think I shall leave that ruling be. It would be a neat fit, mind you, but THE core drawback to convertibles is that pesky compartmentalization of weapon systems. Heck, transforming AutoMechs can't even mount modular armor, and that's really similar to what the Ram Plate is.
- Herb
Yeah. It sounds good but not the best idea. Although, I like the idea of using loud speakers to distract and annoy people.
Items from IO can be mounted, as long as they're introduced by 3060 and aren't Clan, right?
Bah. Blame the Snords for that one.
What's in IO these days?
- Herb
Various dates for tech items....
<list>
That's most things not already in TM or TO but there's still items missing from sourcebooks that are still legal. I'd also include things from MaxTech and TacHandbook too. MaxTech stuff to add to the few quirk like tech items. TacHandbook because items are mentioned in TO or could still be used as prototypes or primitive versions. But that's me.
Thermobarics at least should appeal to you, of all people... ::)
The prototype weapons could be cheap glitchy versions or used by factions who aren't quite as advanced to have full SLDF or 3060 IS Tech.
From TH, the Blazer and Glazed armor are good as prototypes of Reactive and Reflective Armors found in TO. Glazed Armor is even mentioned in TO, as is the Prototype Caseless Autocannon. AP Missiles are good against hoards of squishies. The Command Console is ideal for Primitive Command Mechs. I also like to use the Mechanical Jump Boosters as prototypes of the TO version.
With MT, I still like using the targeting systems as low tech, low cost, alternatives to quirks. I also like the bypass kits. The Critical Space Limits rule is interesting. (I'm thinking of them for IS Protos or Alien Mechs) There's the Additional Crewman Rule. (Found it! :) ) I like the Snow Mobile Chassis Mod. It's use would be rare but still useful. So are Hot Loaded Missiles.
So there's a few things in both these books that I think could have been included in TO or IO. For Syberians, some of these prototypes were introduced before the 3060 cut off date. They could be used on prototype drones. The bypass kits might be something Medical Drones might carry around to repair the wounded enough to get them to a repair bay.
As much as I love Blazers, they weren't even prototyped until after the SLDF left... :-\
Of course! I wrote all the WMD rules, after all, but for my Syberians... well....
That's already allowed. Under the Prohibited Tech part of the construction rules:
"Primitive Components: AutoMechs may not mount any primitive core components, such as engines, cockpits, gyros, and the like. Primitive and prototype weapons may be mounted on an AutoMech, however, reflecting flawed or low-resource technologies being produced in Syberia’s older manufacturing centers."
If we're talking about the convertible AutoMechs, those armors would be disallowed anyway, as would be the Command Console in any AutoMech type (I'd have a primitive AutoMech brain simply being a heavier brain, with no added bells and whistles, OR an honest-to-Cat ATAC drone system...but having to deal with those command flowcharts would drive me buggy.) Don't have an opinion on the rest, though I would come out with strong caveats about those mechanical boosters if someone put them on a FighterMech and claimed those mechanical boosters generated aerospace thrust (because they don't).
Meh. But they're not really construction rules, and some of those rules might really handicap your AutoMechs, what with the lighter ones not really having a lot of space in them to begin with. A Snowmobile chassis mode being tossed in as a Quirk could be interesting, but it's worth noting that there's no snow on Syberia, so they'd be meant for one of the few worlds in their system where there is enough of an atmosphere for something *like* snow to happen.
Given that the Salvage Arm is fluffed as having multiple "powered tools" to aid in its work, bypass kits may be one of said tools, so there's that.
Maybe they have them but can't use them because they're not authorized to use the command keys?
Would that include the prototype Clan Tech? The stuff that's not quite as good as IS 3060 tech.
That's cool. I just wondered about them as a failed experiment. ATAC drone systems would be cool but the flowcharts drive me buggy too. :) Yeah, that's not something I'd do. I was thinking more on beast mechs to help them blend in.
Hadn't thought about using them in AutoMechs but the targeting systems could be used by less advanced factions. The smaller mech chassis I hadn't thought about using here at all. I have been thinking of using them for mechs between 2-9 tons though as kind of a cross between a mech and a protomech. That would be cool. Does something like snow happen on the other planets?
I suppose you could fluff it like that.
Part of the fluff did cover the fact that all the Successor States eventually did TRY it, so you could sneak it in that way... ^-^
Possible. Or most were used up in the holocaust. It's up to whoever runs your Syberian AutoMech campaigns.
No.
All props given to the writer who came up with the flowcharts as a way to characterize the AIs AS AIs, but there was a reason I let the Syberian AutoMechs just be run any old way the players wish. (Indeed, it may be argued that IE is wrong about their sentience, were it not for the few clear examples that they lack free will...)
Snow *might* happen if the planet has an atmosphere and a water/water-like cycle of some kind. The snow could be comprised of other crystalized compounds, is all. If more silicates, we're talking sand, but if it's, say, something like crystalized nitrogen, maybe? Who knows? I wasn't planning on delving too deeply there, and would definitely need to call in Cray to work such things out.
And so I have!
Yarp!
- Herb
:) I would allow them as they wouldn't be "Clan weapons" but the experimental weapons the Syberians used before perfecting full SLDF and IS 3060 tech. And for some factions they were as far as they managed to get before the war ended further advancement.
If there's ice, I would imagine there could be something like snow. I'd use a lot of handwavium though since those kind of weather patterns are beyond me.
Yep but will they have the same effect on the patient?
Nope. I see "Clan" in the description, I say "nope."
That's just it. You still need an atmosphere for there to be snow. Otherwise, it's just ice on the ground, in one big, solid clump
If you want it to. I'm not gonna tell you how to play your games.
- Herb
Well, I'm not going ask for anymore Herb has done. He done waaaaaaaaaaay more than anything I could ever dream.
I'm just been commenting on minor things or asking questions on it.
People can make their own Fan-Source books add-on to what work been made. With Herb credit to making it and the original one!
;D I thought you'd say that. Which is why I haven't posted anything using them. To me "clan" is only a location to find their stats.
Snow is just tiny ice so if something impacted and sent ice flying, snow could settle on the ground. I wouldn't want to try to ski on it though. :)
Herb, would it be okay if Tail Sitter FighterMechs had 2 Landing Gear Crits in each side torso and none in the center torso?
While Syberia itself can make any sort of snow fall, there are other planets / moons out there.
Not breathable but they do have conditions to allow for snow like conditions. Such as ice spewing from a moon's inner reservoir of water. Heck it doesn't even need to be water, such as methane or other types of liquid like substances.
Q: What about Clan tech?
A: No.
Q: What about prototype Clan tech?
A: Still no.
Q: What if the prototype Clan tech is inferior to Inner Sph—?
A: I said NO! Let it go, man!
Q: …What about stuff from XTR: 1945?
A: Why are you like this?
I am adapting FedComGirl's biplane AutoMech to the TRO. Adjusting it to fit the current rules. Need to look up some fun proxy minis for it, though. Hmmm.... Crimson Skies' A2 Thunderbird looks good. And an Incubus II Mech form...I like idea of adapting a Crimson Skies plane. Its sound cool.
- Herb
I like idea of adapting a Crimson Skies plane. Its sound cool.
I like idea of adapting a Crimson Skies plane. Its sound cool.
I was looking for an excuse to get another Crimson Skies Mini :D
Huh and would pair nicely with Deepdive as a movieverse former from an earlier era.
It's amusing to think that IWM is the Nebula California ;D
But to me, that's all it takes to deny their use. :p
Yeah but I don't see that accumulating enough to create snowfield conditions too quickly. But, hey, you go, guy!
Hmmmm. You would want to codify that in a custom quirk, though I might argue for putting landing gear in each leg, as they become part of the tail in fighter mode.
- Herb
For you, Rifleman, I added the following to the Q&A section. Hope you like it:QuoteQ: What about Clan tech?
A: No.
Q: What about prototype Clan tech?
A: Still no.
Q: What if the prototype Clan tech is inferior to Inner Sph—?
A: I said NO! Let it go, man!
Q: …What about stuff from XTR: 1945?
A: Why are you like this?
I am adapting FedComGirl's biplane AutoMech to the TRO. Adjusting it to fit the current rules. Need to look up some fun proxy minis for it, though. Hmmm.... Crimson Skies' A2 Thunderbird looks good. And an Incubus II Mech form...
- Herb
RifleMech! Share the attached with FCG, please? It's the "Biplaner" entry I'm putting in the TRO.
I have, however, run into a slight problem.
In the conversion to Syberian rules compliance, he ends up with 2 unused tons. I could up the armor and mobility a bit, but just in case, check to see if she has a preference.
- Herb
:)
Cool
I guess that would work. I was thinking for the Triebflügel. It the side torsos have two landing gear each and then give it the Abnormal Conversion and swap the side torso for legs in Fighter Mode the side torsos would be the tail. But then it is a tripod so that doesn't really pair up but tripods aren't normal anyway.
;D
Awww...no 1945 tech. :'( I suppose Star Empire Tech is a no no too >:D
:toofunny: I'm sure she'll love it. I'' see what she thinks and let you know. :thumbsup:
Type: Biplaner
Technology Base: Syberian (Experimental)
Tonnage: 15
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 1.5
Conversion Eqpt: Aero 2.5
Engine: 15 0.5
Walking MP: 1
Running MP: 2
Jumping MP: 1
Safe Thrust: 1
Max Thrust: 2
Heat Sinks (Standard): 10 0
Gyro: 1
Cockpit: AutoMech 3
Armor Factor (Commercial): 55 2
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 5 6
Center Torso (rear) 4
R/L Torso 4 5
R/L Torso (rear) 3
R/L Arms 2 4
R/L Legs 3 6
Fixed Components Location Critical Mass
Avionics RT/LT/HD 3 --
Landing Gear RT/CT/LT 3 --
Jump Jet (Turbo-Prop) CT 1 0.5
10 Heat Sinks 5 RT/5 LT 8 --
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Mass
Bomber Configuration
Bomb Bay (2 ton) RT 2 2
Bomb Bay (2 ton) LT 2 2
Dogfighter Configuration
2 Machine Guns RA 2 1
Ammo (MG) 200 RA 1 1
CASE RT 1 0.5
Recon Camera LT 1 0.5
2 Small Lasers LA 2 1
Switcher Configuration
2 Machine Guns RA 2 1
Ammo (MG) 100 RA 1 0.5
Recon Camera RT 1 0.5
Bomb Bay (1 ton) RT 1 1
Bomb Bay (1 ton) LT 1 1
Zapper Configuration
Light PPC RA 2 3
2 Small Lasers LA 2 1
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, Turbo-Prop “Jump Jet”), Atmospheric Flyer, Bad Reputation, Difficult to Maintain, Distracting (Archaic Appearance), Non-Standard Parts, Prop-Flyer, Obsolete (From the Start!)
Credit: FedComGirl for original design and fluff4 tons of payload on a 15 ton frame is really good! :thumbsup:
4 tons of payload on a 15 ton frame is really good! :thumbsup:
It can get out maneuvered by a Urbanmech.
Not when it's flying! 8)
You're already bending the rules with the tripod fighter conversion; don't let ME stop you...
Cool.
- Herb
Sorry I'm replying later. There were issues. >:( Anyway, FedComGirl, says thank you and that she'd be okay with whatever you decide. She did suggeste primitive prototype lasers because he's old. She also suggested rearranging the Dog Fighter to more balance his attacks.
Tsk. Tsk.
HERB... :beatdown: (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Piranacon_(G1))
* whispers " Follow the internet crumb ".
Recommended changes integrated. Sacker (Ransack) has been highlighted as having small lasers that have degraded to Primitive Prototype quality, giving them a +50% heat value. That they haven't been fixed all this time suggests that the problem is somehow with Sacker itself; other Dogfighter Biplaners don't have this issue.
What!?
- Herb
I did. Are you asking me to stat it, or add it? A united combiner, of course, would be a superheavy of the Deconstructor variety. Individual members, though...they look like PresiDom stock bestial-types to me...
(Gotta be honest here: I'm about out of steam now. The final section has three placeholders for art and I just can't seem to find the gumption to get any of them done. Two, I think, should be transformation sequences almost reminiscent of the instructions you might find in a toy's package--or a semi-official "blueprint" version thereof. The third should be a general scene of one or more AutoMechs on a rampage. I'm just really tired of late, though.
But otherwise, this project is looking like a done deal!)
- Herb
I do believe that was the whole point of the exercise... 8)
The technology base used by the Syberian AutoMechs is
roughly equal to that of the Inner Sphere in 3060. Any technology
with an introduction date of 3060 or sooner is thus available for
AutoMech use, unless it is specifically restricted by the rules below. Unless specifically stated, any item with an introduction date of 3061 or later is not allowed.
Can I suggest a change to this paragraph under Syberian Technology Base by adding the bold sentence at the end?
And then maybe giving a list of which post 3060 items are allowed? I say that because the Light PPC was introduced in 3067 and it's on a couple AutoMechs. So I'm not quite sure how much the Syberians expanded their weapons classes. I'm sure the post 3060 Autocannons are out along with post 3060 Lasers. I'm not sure about post 3060 PPCs, Gauss Rifles, Machine Guns, or Flamers. Thanks :)
What the--? Why was I so sure the Light PPC was around early enough? Did something get changed someplace?
- Herb
:bang: :flame: :ticked:
Gonna have to rip up a rewrite a bunch of crap now...
- Herb
I could see them having the Light PPC and Heavy PPC without any problem. The have ERs and Pulse Lasers, and from the sounds of it didn't bomb themselves back to the stone age.
Had a fun thought that since the Syberians are entirely mechanical, imagine a PPC that uses heavy metal ions being fired instead of something lighter.
Similar to the Mech Flamer (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Flamer) or Plasma Rifle (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Plasma_rifle), but instead of using superheated gas or plastic as ammo, it uses a tank of liquid mercury.
Nothing like a heavy metal toxin being sprayed across the battlefield to make the situation even worse. ;D
Well, the A2 Thunder and Incubus II mini are enroute. I should work on the ones in the queue now. :)
So...
As I have now come down with the Covid, I figured I'd better wrap up the construction rules...again.
Review and lemme know.
- Herb
Thank you for writing this Herb.
All this makes me to want to find small transformer and make them Battletech scale.
Got to try to warm up the 3d printer.
So...
As I have now come down with the Covid, I figured I'd better wrap up the construction rules...again.
Review and lemme know.
- Herb
Adding in equipment tables without taking whole sections and chopping them out, while also basically softening all the pre-3060 stuff rules was a pain, and in my current state, I'm not 100% certain I didn't create a bunch of weird loopholes and contradictions.
But, hey, when you ask for a SPECIFIC listing, it should close all the loopholes just the same.
- Herb
NMAs? ???
Looks like I have new decals to make.
Non-'Mech AutoMechs. MiniMechs are an example of this, as are the ultra-light drones. Any Syberian robot not built into a BattleMech or WorkMech body. But in this TRO, they only put the big NMAs in that section--DropShips and a large naval vessel.Thanks for the explanation, good sir! :thumbsup:
- Herb
I'm working off the older database then, has Octane down as a coolant truck and Grand Titan. :-[
Ahah, so I have to creatively fudge how a Grand Titan turns into a Lucifer then? ;D
Gotcha, I did consider asking first about the aerial form, thought it was going to be one of the split types and a dropship alt because of the airliner size
Can I repurpose the dropship as Skyfire?
Out of curiosity.. could the tracked and hover Veemech transformation systems be combined with torso cockpit placement?
Only if it's a human-piloted unit. AutoMechs use the robotic cockpit otherwise, which is head-mounted only.That was the idea, mostly just wondering if things like crit layouts allow it. The LAM/flying veemech systems aren't compatible with torso cockpits for example, because there are fighter mode systems filling the torso crits
- Herb
That was the idea, mostly just wondering if things like crit layouts allow it. The LAM/flying veemech systems aren't compatible with torso cockpits for example, because there are fighter mode systems filling the torso crits
Remind me what was Skyfire's mech base again?
That was the idea, mostly just wondering if things like crit layouts allow it. The LAM/flying veemech systems aren't compatible with torso cockpits for example, because there are fighter mode systems filling the torso crits
It would work if the LAM/flying veemech used a compact gyro. I'd say a compact engine too but they're not on the list.
The Syberian incarnation of Skyfire/Jetfire is a Seeker II, so it uses a Crusader BattleMech form. I gave it a Rusalka fighter mode, but let's see how you pull it off. (Kind of funny, of course; of all units, Skyfire/Jetfire could really use a classic P. Hawk LAM's fighter mode, but as far as I know, one was never made for BT.)
That would be the main issue in a fighter-converting 'Mech, of course, yes. The funny part is, due to technicalities of how I wrote these rules, we only know that the fully robotic AutoMechs had the robotic (AutoMech) cockpit restrictions. How creative the Syberians got when it came to human-piloted convertibles could have been interesting...
...though, now that you mention it, there may be an error in that list regardless. I didn't include Superheavy options, did I?
I wonder why I put compact gyros on the list, now that you've called attention to it? Amazing how quickly I can confuse myself!
- Herb
If basing Skyfire/Jetfire on the toy, a Pixie LAM Fighter Mode mini would be ideal. I don't think any classic LAMs had a Fighter Mini though. I've never seen one. Not from RP or IWMs anyway. PB did have some for a while but I don't think they'd be easy to get now.
I'd love to know how creative the Syberians got with human-piloted convertibles. >:D
Don't Superheavy AutoMechs use the same 3 ton drone cockpit?
I don't know why but I'd keep it, I'd even include the Compact Engine as they do open up some options even at the expense of added weight. They also don't add crits so wouldn't effect the conversion process any. Plus I like that they make the Center Torso more usable. And I think it helps with the visual aesthetics too. I know things don't have to be located in the CT to look like they're in the CT but if the CT is available, why not put them in the CT?
In my case, I'm treating Skyfire and Jetfire as 2 separate bots, using Skyfire's bigger boxier form from the cartoon as the starting point. Jetfire will always be a Strike Valkerie to me, since that's what his toy was.
And I always wondered aa a kid why there wasn't a proper Skyfire toy back then. I knew who it was supposed to be, but I had no problem accepting Skyfire as a separate bot.
Well i asked about the cockpit stuff mainly because a project I'm working on involves piloted multimode mechs in a few places, and I'm weighing options as to whether i want to tackle them and if so how to go about it. Though to be honest, they're rare enough in the inspirational material i could probably just drop the transforming aspect and they'd still work fine.
That's what I was saying. The P.Hawk LAM in fighter mode would work best for our Syberian-made Jetfire/Skyfire expy, but I don't know where one would find one. Who's "PB"?
Have fun with that. By the time IE came by, they were as extinct as the system's human populace.
If built as an AutoMech, yes. But if the Standard and Torso-mounted cockpits are on the list for human-piloted units, and the Syberians also made superheavies, then a human-piloted superheavy would need a superheavy cockpit.
Sure, but the issue is whether or not the Syberians reached that level of tech development. They got to something approaching the Inner Sphere in the late Clan Invasion era after extrapolating on the first Star League tech they had, but they didn't necessarily get EVERYTHING the IS had by that point, as our now-specific list of gear shows.
- Herb
In my case, I'm treating Skyfire and Jetfire as 2 separate bots, using Skyfire's bigger boxier form from the cartoon as the starting point. Jetfire will always be a Strike Valkerie to me, since that's what his toy was.
And I always wondered aa a kid why there wasn't a proper Skyfire toy back then. I knew who it was supposed to be, but I had no problem accepting Skyfire as a separate bot.
Super late though about the autosuits/MiniMechs, wouldn't they be able to have been fitted withe basic Camo? Its old but good stealth. The Spybirds can't u see them but minibots could I would think.
Wouldn't they have access to all BA systems including Camo?I would agree, but Herb the one writing this baby. At the time they established the colony with the Star League era colonlists, they at minium had some kind access to technology that lead to the Nighthawk.
The Nighthawk itself is little more than a heavily-armored Sneak Suit with an integral ECM suite. While it only has 120kg of armor, enough to stop a couple bursts from a Support Machine Gun, its protection against small arms was considered excellent. The armor plating has stealth capabilities similar to an IR/ECM sneak suit,
Super late though about the autosuits/MiniMechs, wouldn't they be able to have been fitted withe basic Camo? Its old but good stealth. The Spybirds can't u see them but minibots could I would think.
...PB=Palladium Books...
I know but it's a fun area to explore.
So drone cockpits, of all kinds, are 3 tons. Human Piloted cockpits we as normal for their type. Cool! :thumbsup:
I think if it would aid on construction of Convertible Mechs, they would have. They don't seem to mind heavier systems if it'd get them the Converting Mech they'd want. Developing smaller heavier engines and gyros to help them get the look of the mech/vehicle they're wanting doesn't seem out of line. But that's just me.
And maybe the Drones could have started off as a real sophisticated autopilots, or maybe a human pilot was included just incase there was a problem with the Drone's AI. Then the human could take over. Then when the AIs became more reliable regular cockpits stopped being included? If you told me that "back-up" human cockpits could be placed anywhere, and then made stats for an AutoMech with a cockpit in the legs or arm, I wouldn't be surprised that they exist. Surprised you made one but not that they exist. ;D
I would agree, but Herb the one writing this baby. At the time they established the colony with the Star League era colonlists, they at minium had some kind access to technology that lead to the Nighthawk.
It depends if the sneak suit tech is older. Remember Nighthawk was the most secret of SLDF's techs. However, the Star League Era Sneak Suit tech maybe available.
MiniMech gear is still limited by date of introduction, so the Camo System, introduced in 2800, is available to them.
All grades of stealth battle armor (excluding Mimetic) are also available to MiniMechs.
Ah. Thought the P might have meant Paladium, but wasn't sure what the B was about.
Have at it.
For 'Mechs and Fighters, yup. Other units which use different control systems, follow the rules for their type when calculating weights (so, no 3-ton DropShip cockpits).
After a while, there is a serious issue of diminishing returns, especially on units that already sacrifice 15 percent of their mass to transform. Either way, the Syberians just never made it that far, apparently.
No need to be surprised, then, as I never made one.
- Herb
Yep. I thought all BA items are available but that could change. :)
True. There is that but sometimes I think it's worth it. Sometimes space is more important than weight.
So the list is changing again? ???
So how would I get my Syberian DemoCon / AutoMech into Beastial mode?
Beast Wars...
Beast Wars...We have them in this TRO. Look for examples like the Silverback (Optimus Primal), Saurus (BW Megatron), Scorpios (BW Skorponok), Cynofelis (Cheetor), and the like... The factions translated into the PresiDom (Predacons) and AxiMaL (Maximal) factions on Syberia.
TT
- Herb
We've pretty much reached the end of my work on this particular fan project, so any changes would have to come from someone else. About the only tweaks I see myself doing from here on out are likely to be art (such as the fact that I spent today revising several pieces due to changes in the DemoCon and InterSectCon faction logos).
Nope.
- Herb
Erm, technically speaking, would that not be...this thread?Have you had time to finsh it? There hasn't been much said. Once done it could have a listing on Fanon wiki for Battletech help people find it.
- Herb
Have you had time to finsh it? There hasn't been much said. Once done it could have a listing on Fanon wiki for Battletech help people find it.
I mean, it can only get SO finished. I don't really have a cover for it, and most of the images are placeholders (Hmmm; I think Luc gave me two more minis to add, now that you mention it), but the writing's pretty done. File size limits here force me to keep the thing broken to <900KB segments...Like me to it and I will put up. All Battletech fan made stuff is welcome there.
A Fanon wiki link would be neat. One for the Reign of the Tetakuni adventure would be nice, too! But what happens the next time the forum resets?
- Herb
Any chance to get a thread for all the downloads too be able to find them all in one place.
Hmm, I should probably try and finish up the other pending Syberians I have on my workbench. ::)I hope so, you're a good artist.
Hmm, I should probably try and finish up the other pending Syberians I have on my workbench. ::)
Should I wait to put a profile for the XTRO on wiki? I can put one with no art withe Current version of the XTRO with some of the mini pictures included.
And now with more details, including insignia and battle damage. (Primus Optimal is coming in fresh, so it's the only one undamaged here.)which automechs are what here?
- Herb
which automechs are what here?
He might be, but I'm sufficiently unfamiliar with the Transformers canon to the point of only recognizing just over half of those names...
It's helpful to list them either way! :thumbsup:
:onot entirely? i wasn't sure which one the red one was (thought it might be G1 Cliffjumper's expy), and apparently i misidentified the seeker as Sky Seeker/Skywarp (who had a similar color scheme in G1)
Are you kidding?
Include Alpha Strike rules please...we'd need AS cards for all the new units. which would be a lot of hand converting then programming into the MUL's custom card maker.
TT
Include Alpha Strike rules please...
not entirely? i wasn't sure which one the red one was (thought it might be G1 Cliffjumper's expy), and apparently i misidentified the seeker as Sky Seeker/Skywarp (who had a similar color scheme in G1)
i'm honestly not all that familiar with the classic transformers stuff, i'm just good at finding stuff on their Wiki. if it was Beastwars based stuff i'd be more familiar. (i caught a few G1 reruns growing up but was more into The Real Ghostbusters and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, so my main exposure to transformers as a media franchise rather than just random toys was via Beastwars when it came out.)
we'd need AS cards for all the new units. which would be a lot of hand converting then programming into the MUL's custom card maker.
Won't Alpha Strike cards be difficult to do? These are customized units, though I guess the Robotic controls won't as evident as they need to be in a AutoMech (BattleMech) record sheet.
It would be cool to see sourcebook, that's alot work for one guy doing something for free. :o
the new trailer for "TF: rise of the beasts" comes pretty close to how i imagined the Syberian Aximals would end up looking. not very natural (and way too big) but obviously meant to emulate animals.
Ok, finished Waspinator, kept it more modern looking and left the vee mode mostly alone. Hoping the paint scheme carries the intent mostly.
to be fair a lot of the wookiepedia entries on the technical specs come from that cross section books, which were being written by some of the most ardent "argue and 'win' debates on the internet" types (http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWICS.html) (more (http://www.st-v-sw.net/Warsiegroup.html)), and they tended to inflate the specs to make SW stuff superior to everyone. its where the 'gigaton turbolasers' came from for example. and a lot of their figures are just weird to start with. star destroyers apparently burn more fuel per second in their reactors than they mass as a ship for example.
FighterMechs require 3 Jump Jets. Presumably so they can get into space. Can non space going AirMechs mount fewer Jump Jets? Without having to resort to the Illegal Quirk?
https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/d/d2/ROTFtoy-RansackScout.jpg
http://images.shoutwiki.com/gbwiki/8/8c/GoBotsToyZero.jpg
Still alive so far...
Since we're hitting just about the end of my part of this project, I thought I'd send the final revisions of the other parts as well. NOW with full-color art!
Attached is the latest version of Herb Beas's Technical Readout: Syberia (Part 1: Opening Fiction), as of 6 October 2022.
- Herb
Rumors of my death have been slightly exaggerated. Slightly due to having been sick with one thing or another since October. There's nothing as awesome as having your head cold prevent you from getting a chest CT scan because you can't lay down without choking.
I seriously want to do a transforming GA bird, now, like a Cessna 172 or one of the crazy Cub-derived STOL birds, or a classic like the Beechcraft Staggerwing.
1) Can Syberian Mechs use any type of armor available, besides converting mechs not using FF Armor? Currently, IndustrialMechs can use any armor type but BattleMechs aren't allowed Commercial. Does that apply to Syberian Mechs too?
• Armor – The need to improvise and make do with scraps taught the human Syberians to allow for unconventional “lower-grade” armor options in all their ’Mech designs. This ability remains available, even after the humans’ demise. As a consequence, all Syberian ’Mechs built using either an available military or industrial structure type (including Improved Industrial Structure), may mount armor types normally reserved for IndustrialMechs and Support Vehicles. The armor types available to the Syberian technology base are shown in the Core Construction Technologies List. Note that the available Industrial, Commercial, and Support Vehicle armor types occupy no slots on the unit’s Critical Hit Table, and thus can be mounted on convertible AutoMechs.
2a) Do Syberian Mechs built with Industrial Structures have all the same functions as those built with BattleMech Structures? I know Enviromental Sealing is built in but would an Industrial FighterMech have VTOL capabilities or would that be extra?
2b) If extra, would they add VTOL Equipment they way Conventional Fighters do, or Rotors, or both?
3a)Do Prop FighterMechs include VTOL? My guess would be No since they're using a prop for movement not jet thrust.
3b) If 3a) is a No, can VTOL/VSTOL be added following the answer to 2b)
i'd run an autogyro-bot as a VTOLmech with some plane visual styling. given that in media the line between helicopter and Autogyro is pretty blurry, i doubt that many people would even notice.
More questions!? Still!?
Mmmm. Looking over the rules, it seems pretty cut and dry that the armoring rules are based on the underlying structure type, and that the Syberians only have standard and FF armor for military machines, while industrials can only use standard ind., heavy industrial (aka military-grade standard), and commercial armors only. That's the rules.
*tweaks rules*
Okay, I've now added the following paragraph to the Rules Chapter, covering armor:
Syberian industrial structure comes in standard and improved formats. Only the improved format has the built-in sealing. The tricky part not considered here, given how the Syberians militarized their industrial chassis, is whether an industrial with a fighter conversion is considered to be an atmospheric or aerospace fighter. I'm going to say (and codify into the rules, of course), that Prop-Flyers lose the VTOL capabilities in Fighter mode, with no work-around that doesn't involve NOT being prop-driven.
Answered above. Industrial Prop-Flyers have to commit to one form of flight or the other.
They do not. VTOLMechs are their own thing.
Narp.
Hope that helps!
- Herb
i'd run an autogyro-bot as a VTOLmech with some plane visual styling. given that in media the line between helicopter and Autogyro is pretty blurry, i doubt that many people would even notice.
I'm kind of hoping Industrial FighterMechs will be atmospheric fighters. If the Syberians converted all kinds of other vehicles, why not them? And it makes sense for a FighterMech with a standard Industrial Structure to be atmospheric only since it can't operate in space. The issue is VSTOL abilities. It's built in for ASF but optional for CF. Would VSTOL abilities be built in, optional, or not available for Industrial FighterMechs? Or would it depend on the structure type? Built in for Improved but not for Standard?
So no AutoGyroMechs? At least not built as FighterMechs? Cause I was thinking about making a couple. The one without wings would be built as a VTOL Mech with a no hovering/VTOL Quirk. The one with wings would built as a Prop FighterMech with a single Rotor for VSTOL. Or would the Rotor just be a quirk for the FighterMech? Or maybe there should just be an AutoGyro Quirk?
I'm definitely leaning towards VTOLmech for the wingless autogyros even though they're supposed to fly more like airplanes. They do look more like helicopters though. They also have tilting rotors like helicopters. Plus some helicopters even have propellers blurring things even more. So I think wingless autogyros would work as VTOLmechs.
Herb, did you update the current PDF with these amendments?
Conventional Fighters are only the way they are because they are made to be air-breathers and are thus reliant on the presence of air for at least some of their reaction mass. The Syberians were using fusion everywhere and wanted AutoMechs that could be deployed damned near everywhere, so they simply didn't make FighterMechs that weren't aerospace unless they were also prop-driven.
I did some quirk research on autogyros and have come to realize that they really do straddle a line between VTOLs and prop-planes. I could see arguments for building an autogyro using either approach, with faster autogyros built as FighterMechs using the Prop-Flyer Quirk, and slower ones built simply as VTOLMechs. Given the rulings I've made, that would mean the faster "AutoGyroMechs" would lose VTOL capabilities as a consequence.
Not gonna stop you either way.
- Herb
So treat them all as ASF and hope those with Standard Industrial Structures don't suffer a breach while in space?
They do straddle that line, which is why I was thinking of making two. One a VTOLMech and the other a FighterMech. I didn't think the faster AutoGyroMechs would have VTOL capabilities. They're more STOL aircraft. Plus the Rotor wouldn't provide enough Thrust points to VTOL or hover. But would their rotor be equipment or a quirk? I want to lean towards equipment since it's not something they'd want to loose or be damaged.
Thanks :) I just don't want to overdo the Illegal Quirk.
Would it be fair to say that a mixed propulsion FighterMech, with turbo props and jets, like the Ryan_FR_Fireball, would follow the rules for PropFighterMechs but movement in trace/no atmosphere and under water would be limited to the number of which type of engines they have?
Basically, yeah. But considering the fact that even fusion-powered BattleMechs with military structures break down from vacuum-voiding in space, well... Let's just say it's a funny rules area. (But remember that prop aircraft can't even rise higher than 18km above the surface in gameplay; Prop-Flyer FighterMechs are stuck in the same limits while in fighter mode.)
Prop-Flyer FighterMechs can be built with a Safe Thrust as low as 1. And remember that Prop-Flyers substitute propellers for jet systems, which means even their jump MP is prop-driven (which is why Prop-Flyer FighterMechs can't use Jump MP in vacuum/trace atmospheres, either). No Rotor equipment required, because the jump jets are rotors--albeit rotors incapable of sustained hovering in 'Mech mode).
If you want alt-mode VTOL capabilities with a convertible Syberian AutoMech, you thus need to build them as standard (non-Prop) FighterMechs, or as VTOLMechs. If you want Mech-mode VTOL with a convertible Syberian AutoMech, your only option is a VTOLMech. And if you want propeller-based convertible FighterMechs that work using fighter speeds and fighter rules instead of VTOL rules, your only option is a FighterMech with the Prop-Flyer Quirk. The Syberians didn't develop much finer gradation than that, I'm afraid.
If you're determined to keep bending even these rather broad and flexible rules, you may as well go in for a penny, in for a metric ton of pennies...
I wouldn't even try it. Hell, reading up on that plane, it was basically a failure, even if they did build about 75 of them. The dual power system arrangement was fraught with problems that affected everything from landing gear to structural integrity. No, I'd make a transforming Ryan Fireball up as a FighterMech with the Prop-Flyer Quirk and stick with Prop-Flyer rules.
- Herb
Props don't handle the sound barrier very well... 8)
Glad to have helped square the circle! :D
The props could add extra thrust for subsonic maneuvers? Enough prop thrust and you basically have a VTOL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter). ;)
The props could add extra thrust for subsonic maneuvers? Enough prop thrust and you basically have a VTOL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter). ;)
Which is why VTOLMechs are probably more appropriate than Fighter or ASF frames for this.
All these squares make a circle...
All these squares make a circle...
All these squares make a circle...
:D
- Herb
I gotta say, making the seeker Jets are some of my favorite mods.
no reasons why they have to be completely uniform. cosmetic surgery is only a welder away, so if a automech wants, they can customize their face and other such features extensively.
I gotta say, making the seeker Jets are some of my favorite mods.
I gotta say, making the seeker Jets are some of my favorite mods.
Neat! Was that a 'Mechbuster you used as the base for the fighter?
Are the last 5 supposed to be Seeker IIs? They look more beefier than the previous ones.
Hey, I remember this story from Space Battles. Good stuff!
I look forward to when they eventually find germanium, just to see what they do with it. I'm guessing they're gonna use it for electronics (like Silicon-Germanium Heterojunction Bipolar Transistors) rather than for KF drives.
Hey, I remember this story from Space Battles. Good stuff!
KF required a fundamental breakthrough while monitoring fusion reactors. The Automechs in this system aren't really clever enough to make those kinds of breakthroughs, as here is an example of Mechatankus (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-fiction/endless-loop-a-syberian-vignette/) being stuck doing the same thing over and over. Now if they had Groundwave (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-fiction/exile-in-syberia/) to help them out, that might be another matter.
Hence why they'd probably just make faster transistors. SiGe HBTs can *theoretically* get up to low-hundreds of GHz.
Even if Groundwave helped them construct a KF Drive, I don't think he's getting out of the California Nebula. You can check in, but you can never leave.
How's ol' Groundwave doing these days, IW?
- Herb
No idea, have to ask Giovanni Blasini.
Closest I get is writing a one-off about a creepy-looking ship that pulled a HAL.
There different Exile from Syberia story? I only know of the story here by Giovanni Blasini whom hasn't done much with the story for at least a year.
Still a work in progress, but Starscream gets his buddies.
Still a work in progress, but Starscream gets his buddies.
To me that the Biplaner roll wise is a close air support vehicle. They're able in being able bring down the pain but unlike modern jets , can linker longer on station.
I'm curious how the rules would handle the ability of a lam such as the Biplaner. Would they be able to do a strike like aerospac fighter. Are they considered true aircraft and not ground vetoles like they're not going to be able to do the same thing I would imagine rules-wise. Especially when you can bring bombs down during a strike or a strafing run.
A biplane sounds hard, but if anyone can make one, it's Luciora... 8)
Type: Biplaner Aerofighter AutoMech
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Tonnage: 15
Battle Value: 129
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 1.5
Conversion Eqpt: Aero (Bimodal LAM) 2.5
Engine 15 Fusion 0.5
Walking MP: 1
Running MP: 2
Jumping MP: 1
Safe Thrust: 1
Max Thrust: 2
Heat Sink 10 0
Gyro 1
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor (Commercial) 48 2
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 7
Center Torso 5 6
Center Torso (rear) 3
R/L Torso 4 5
R/L Torso (rear) 2
R/L Arm 2 4
R/L Leg 3 5
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Fixed Components Location Critical Mass
Avionics RT/LT/HD 3 --
Landing Gear RT/CT/LT 3 --
Jump Jet (Turbo-Prop) CT 1 0.5
10 Heat Sinks 5 RT/5 LT 8 --
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
Fluid Suction System RT 1 - 0.5
Liquid Storage (1 ton) RT 1 - 1.0
Sprayer LA 1 - 0.5
Fluid Suction System LT 1 - 0.5
Liquid Storage (1 ton) LT 1 - 1.0
Sprayer RA 1 - 0.5
Bomber Configuration
Bomb Bay (2 ton) RT 2 2
Bomb Bay (2 ton) LT 2 2
Dogfighter Configuration
Machine Gun RA 1 0.5
Ammo (MG) 100 RA 1 0.5
Small Laser RA 1 0.5
Recon Camera RT 1 0.5
Recon Camera LT 1 0.5
Machine Gun LA 1 0.5
Ammo (MG) 100 LA 1 0.5
Small Laser RA 1 0.5
Switcher Configuration
Machine Gun RA 1 0.5
Small Laser RA 1 0.5
Recon Camera RT 1 0.5
Vehicular Grenade Launcher RT 1 0.5
Vehicular Grenade Launcher LT 1 0.5
Ammo (MG) 100 LT 1 0.5
Machine Gun LA 1 0.5
Small Laser LA 1 0.5
Zapper Configuration
Light PPC RA 2 3
2 Small Lasers LA 2 1
Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Illegal (Syberian Robotics AI, Turbo-Prop “Jump Jet”), Atmospheric Flyer, Water-Lander, Bad Reputation, Difficult to Maintain, Distracting (Archaic Appearance), Non-Standard Parts, Prop-Flyer, Obsolete (From the Start!)
Credit: FedComGirl for original design and fluff
Notable Biplaners:
Biplaner Type Config. Function Skill Grade Skill Set ’Mech/Vehicle Form
Electrode Zapper NinjaMech AbvAv (1/2) Infantry-AntiMech Incubus II/Pacair Hammerfist*
Sacker Dogfighter** ReconMech Vet (1/1) Scout Incubus II/A2 Thunderbird*
Diver Bomber ArtilleryMech Reg (2/3) Infantry Incubus II/A2 Thunderbird*
Blue Top Switcher ReconMech Reg (2/3) Scout Incubus II/A2 Thunderbird*
Cropslinger Fireboss ExplorerMech Vet (4/2) Planetary Surveyor Stinger LAM/Vought Skewer*
*This is a Crimson Skies miniature (TM Microsoft)
**The small lasers on this unit have regressed to primitive prototype quality (+50% heat each, round up)
Well, why does the BiPlaner have Spray/suction system???? I know it sucks (sorry) but i didn't think it was a refueling machine. Sacker would never hear end of it!
Sooo....insanity ensued, and i did this for the Biplaner. Please bare in mind, i'm not a artist. xp
(https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/gryphon-mirage-class-wheeled-syberian-automechs-looking-for-some-help/?action=dlattach;attach=70965)
Noticed an "Oops" in the Biplaner with its armor: it allocates 55 points on 2 tons of Commercial, which is too high. Here's a revamped version with an extra configuration, that cuts the armor to 48 points.
Huh! I somehow missed that armor error! Okay...
- Herb
Any thoughts on adding my Dusty Crophopper knockoff? ;D
There should be an ornithopter AutoMech.
I sense the start of a cottage industry coming on...
- Herb
I was warned never to turn my hobby into work lest I want to loose interest in it. :)
Noticed an "Oops" in the Biplaner with its armor: it allocates 55 points on 2 tons of Commercial, which is too high. Here's a revamped version with an extra configuration, that cuts the armor to 48 points.
Biplaner Aerofighter AutoMech Fireboss Config
To me that the Biplaner roll wise is a close air support vehicle. They're able in being able bring down the pain but unlike modern jets , can linker longer on station.
I'm curious how the rules would handle the ability of a lam such as the Biplaner. Would they be able to do a strike like aerospac fighter. Are they considered true aircraft and not ground vetoles like they're not going to be able to do the same thing I would imagine rules-wise. Especially when you can bring bombs down during a strike or a strafing run.
Sooo....insanity ensued, and i did this for the Biplaner. Please bare in mind, i'm not a artist. xp
STARSCREAM SKY STRIKERA F14 in Starscream colors vs a F15.
XP-21F
(https://www.yojoe.com/images/resize/w/350/imagestore/2631/84674.jpg)
'The Starscream Sky Striker [XP-21F] was released as an exclusive to the 2011 San Diego Comic Con International. It included the pilot, Cobra Commander (v47) and a gun accessory intended to be Megatron, the Decepticon leader.'
Yes, a three-way verse!
TT
PS: And also that leads us to a four-way verse, Marvel!
Is that suppose to be Waspinator?
So, what do you think, Daryk?
I'd go for the Svartfalfa, it was designed with the wings in mind of that style.
When I was doing the biplane image I did. I remembered a Gobot type that does use propellar mech/robot bodies.
They did quite number of theses for Gobots.
Is that a Tucano, Gio? ???
Oh. Oh wow. That's...something.They made a lot of those, they were originally Japanese toys before they were imported to US as GoBots. Being a spoiled child in the 80s toys wise, I had many of them.
They made a lot of those, they were originally Japanese toys before they were imported to US as GoBots. Being a spoiled child in the 80s toys wise, I had many of them.
The image i showed you was Corsair. I remembered it well, since it was with the Black Sheep Squadron (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baa_Baa_Black_Sheep_(TV_series)) Television Show.
You know I've been reading the book lately, is it possible to designate automech as City Commander of a mobile structure such as the non-stated Metroplex?
GoBots may not have been as successful as Transformers but they had some cool toys. :thumbsup:
Cyclops ala Battletech style...
Meanwhile, in the Periphery...
TT
You mean an Ultra-Magnus? (In Transformers lore, Ultra Magnus is often considered to be the city commander for Autobot City/Metroplex... That is, when they're not having him be leader of the Wreckers, the Autobot Second-in-Command, or a shell driven by a smaller bot in memory of the original.)Sorry, I was typing on my phone. I'm talking about Metroplex. (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Metroplex_(G1)) I forgot Grand Titan / Magnum Ultra was the Metro's original commander [If I remember right, they did that to hide surprise of him becoming who would be the next Autobot leader toywise]. What I was ask if it possible for a non-Leader Class to be code-bonded or team-bonded to a non-Transforming Automech. So Ultra is the commander, he can order the city and it's defenses to act, especially the lesser ones. I remember right G1 toy had walking "Rifleman" like Mech and a small scout car which was extension of the city. If they were team-bond they would all answer city commander.
If so, Magnum Ultra is a Leader-class AutoMech with a Grand Titan-type Mech mode, and a Indra-like vehicle mode.
- Herb
Where would Headmasters (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Headmaster_(technology)) come in?I was comparing them since their both Titan size Superheavy 'Mechs. The Headmaster Fortress has smaller Mech in charge of it. As does Metro has a City Commander.
I have a show box of them in my collection.
TT
I was talking about the miniature robots that became the Heads of 'Formers to control... something like the Combiners... Were they themselves form a Titan. The Headmasters had Humans in, what I wanna say BA?, form a head.Matter of scale, since Headmaster for Max isn't going be big enough if it's just a AutoSuite/MiniMech (Battle Armor). "Rifleman/Lancelot" Mech which was part Metroplex was clearly a fullsize 'Mech. The mini-vehicle that part of original Metroplex that came out "chest garage" is likely a Beetle Class if you scale it up to meet up with the size Metro. However, it could go both ways. Metro on Syberia is massively larger than even Metroplex is, mobile structure. Thus where I go say it's likely 'Mech scale or dozen mini-tank things.
TT
I was talking about the miniature robots that became the Heads of 'Formers to control... something like the Combiners... Were they themselves form a Titan. The Headmasters had Humans in, what I wanna say BA?, form a head.
TT
Nice! Got the vee mode picked out too yet?
I was thinking of the XP-55 Ascender as one of the leading ideas (and there are 6mm scale ones on Shapeways), given the pusher prop, but a Hughes Bloodhawk from Crimson Skies would work well, as well, at least in terms of appearance. I'm not sure how long the Bloodhawk mini is compared to a Stinger. Heck, even a BT Corsair with a prop on the back would probably work.
Bloodhawk would be fine, I can get you a picture later today after work if you want to see them together.
So, when combing through the Syberian TRO tonight, were the JUniCom Deltan, the Bomber Mech and the MiniMug (Scrap Iron?) based on any specific Transformers?
Deltan - Nine Cell is "Nancy," (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Nancy) a Lithone-style character who appeared to be at least a partner to Wreck-Gar in a single episode of the third season of the original Transformers cartoon.
MiniMug - Scrap Iron is an unnamed "Short Junkion" (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Short_Junkion) who appeared once in the same cartoon episode as Nancy.
BomberMech - Big Lug is Lugnut (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Lugnut_(Animated)), a Decepticon fanatic who originally appeared in the Transformers Animated series, but has since crossed over into other continuities.
Hope that helps!
- Herb
That is a big help. Bit surprised by Nancy not being a car like Arcee, but it works, and the JUniCom could certainly use their own take on a flyer.
That is a big help. Bit surprised by Nancy not being a car like Arcee, but it works, and the JUniCom could certainly use their own take on a flyer.
Yes, please. It'd give me a good idea of scale before I order one.
Herb
I've got a question for you about FighterMechs and landing gear. I've played around with landing gear slots a little but I was wondering what you thought. Is it okay to add, remove or move landing gear crits and give the FighterMech a quirk or two depending on the type of landing gear it would have in Fighter Mode? An example would be removing the center torso landing gear slot from a tail dragger but adding a penalty for take offs and landings.
Since you're giving a reasonable flaw to go with that, that seems like a perfectly reasonable custom Quirk for the deviation in landing gear setups.
- Herb
Random thought, I know the book has been made and such so it probably no new entries will be added.
However I did want to ask if what the size of the baronies mobile city/mobile structures were in HEX size? Since they are essentially mobile cities for Barony forces or at least mobile repair facilities.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Recyclon (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Recyclon)
Gonna leave this here...
Open conception...
In what way? Hard for me to make a determination without visuals.
- Herb
Funny, I'm finishing up a Wreck-gar as it is.
without visualsque Herb.
The Recylons are fan created? I think what Herb was asking was what do they actually look like. Checking the links, there isn't any art for them, and there isn't any link to the Junkions stating they derived from them either. Just a battle or two.
How about one of these??
Looks like a normal sized guy.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Alpha_Trion_(G1)
Hm. Same molds as Scourge in several cases, so he'd be a Sweeper-C on Syberia.
- Herb
https://www.cbr.com/transformers-dinobot-slug-name-change-offensive/ (https://www.cbr.com/transformers-dinobot-slug-name-change-offensive/)
Poor Slag... I mean Slug.
No offense meant to you Brits...
Killing my childhood...
And I am never giving up my two Megatron Lugers, pre Orange tip.
It's not just that, but now he's officially a tank.
No Tanks...
Next you're gonna tell me that Starscream is really the G. I. Joe Sky striker!
I don't mind Megatron and Shockwave as tanks. It does let them do things on his own. Although, I don't remember Shockwave moving about all that much so I can see him as an EmplacementMech. Plus the size changing thing doesn't really work in BT. I can still see them converting to guns but they'd be battle armor sized which doesn't seem to fit with them being faction leaders.
Wasn't Galvatron a "artillery piece" moving around??
i much prefer the idea of Megatron and Shockwave as having vehicle alt-modes instead of them being firearms. even emplacements honestly makes them feel less threatening.
at least there are multiple optiosn there, between the tank and jet versions that show up in the various continuities. heck, would make for a fun set of sub-variants. have a high commander type for both ground and aerospace operations. though figuring out variant names would get complicated. :)
This is the two images I modified for the fan story, Emergence fan for Groundwave. I hadn't realized there was a big dish on his back.
(https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=76748.0;attach=73588)
(https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=76748.0;attach=73590)
My striping is terrible and I couldn't cheat with decals, but here is my take on Groundwave
This is the two images I modified for the fan story, Emergence fan for Groundwave. I hadn't realized there was a big dish on his back.
In this project, Shockwave was based on his Prime/Aligned universe format, which was basically a Cybertronian tank/tank destroyer, while Megatron was more like his War for Cyberton or Siege Trilogy models. And yeah, there's no size-changing rule here. That's just icky magic in BattleTech. Save it for Toreel.
- Herb
My striping is terrible and I couldn't cheat with decals, but here is my take on Groundwave
Very nice!
I didn't use one on my own Groundwave in TDR form mini, because I didn't have a good dish I could use. But, then, I didn't add the antennae or wheels, either. (see attached)
I haven't even started a Groundwave in GRF form yet, since I'm still working out representation for the GRF-1A, GRF-1N and other Griffins in my Alpha Strike Niops force: I've got one of Catalyst's Griffins and 4 Ral Partha Griffins, and none of IWM's GRF-1As. For now, I've been using one of these as a stand-in:
Actually, yes.
There's Dougram minis that will work with Battletech minis? :shocked: They'd be fun to get.
Actually, yes.
I am not sure if they're still being sold, but about 5 years ago they were quite available. They came in tiny little boxes of. They were kind of a random box sort of pick. But there are many of them are really cool including the Griffin the Shadow Hawk and so forth. With interesting poses.
Unfortunately, it seems our Syberians never got that far.
Maybe, if Mot's crew heads their way...
- Herb
That the Jacks exist say otherwise. 😄
The Jacks?
- Herb
The constantly inventing and hurting themselves when testing new weapons Wheeljacks and other mad scientist types
Yeah, but a lot of their stuff tends to blow up on the first shot or so. ;)
(That, and I actually ruled that the Syberian AutoMechs really can't innovate, per se.)
- Herb
Unfortunately, it seems our Syberians never got that far.
Maybe, if Mot's crew heads their way...
- Herb
if these had existed when we were designing the fanTRo, i probably would have used BA weapons on many of the smaller Aximal designs, as a way to shrink them down even smaller.
Hey, what was the link to the fan tros for the Syberians again?
It be. (https://battletechfanon.fandom.com/wiki/Technical_Readout:_Syberia)
:huh:
- Herb
I get random pings asking for stats and rules when i.post new Syberians on some of the battletech Facebook pages I'm on.
I get random pings asking for stats and rules when i.post new Syberians on some of the battletech Facebook pages I'm on.
At this point, I'm strongly considering running a game using the minis for fun.
Trick is figuring out how to make it work, manual record sheets would likely need to be done.
At this point, I'm strongly considering running a game using the minis for fun.
Fun fact. I considered doing a small bunch of scenarios covering the major fights and skirmishes of the original 1984 pilot series in the style of a FASA-era scenario pack....
- Herb
And you haven't because... ??? ;)
Fun fact. I considered doing a small bunch of scenarios covering the major fights and skirmishes of the original 1984 pilot series in the style of a FASA-era scenario pack....
- Herb
There's always next April 1st!
I was distracted.Totally fair, good sir!
- Herb
At this point, I'm strongly considering running a game using the minis for fun.
*looks around silently*
*casts "Raise Dead"*
*drops another batch of Syberian character images*
- Herb
In the name of diversity... Time for a vote!
1. An AutoMech with a screw-propelled form. (See also: screw tanks)
2. A hovercraft AutoMech.
My basic rundown would be Tracked, but could Lateral Shift like a Quad.
My basic rundown would be Tracked, but could Lateral Shift like a Quad.And perhaps the ability to float on marshy terrain, as the screws are typically hollow. Amphibious by default, essentially.
And perhaps the ability to float on marshy terrain, as the screws are typically hollow. Amphibious by default, essentially.
But it'd be far more susceptible to motive system damage… and there'd have to be some other reason that it's not widespread for combat applications. I do see it as more of an industrial thing.
Sounds good.
Should Ornithopters have their own rules too, or would they just be reflavored VTOLs since they Ornithopter AutoMech seems like a one-off?
Sounds good.just run them as VTOLS.
Should Ornithopters have their own rules too, or would they just be reflavored VTOLs since the Ornithopter AutoMech seems like a one-off?
So the minicons which are supposed to be able to transform would be simulated?
There is wheeled Battle Armor, but it does not benefit of having wheels.
Wow! that's nice!
Silly side of me thinks there should be olive green/dark green accents version named Beetle Baily. :grin:
Yes, yes there should. :grin:
And, yeah, that looks right for Glyph. Beach Beetle is pretty close to what I was thinking for Manx, too.
Silly side of me thinks there should be olive green/dark green accents version named Beetle Baily. :grin:
Baley's Alt form would have to be an ibex 😅
Baley's Alt form would have to be an ibex 😅
They have more wheels, but the new Wheeled Scout minis from IWM might work well, too.
Bugs and Dozers! Hooray!
- Herb
I have figure out how to insert these pictures into the book.
Primus Libertas PL-1
Mass: 85 tons
Chassis: Standard Biped
Power Plant: 255 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 32.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 54 kph
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Primitive
Armament:
1 Large Pulse Laser
1 Arrow IV
1 TAG
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 2750
Tech Rating/Availability: E/F-F(F*)-F-F
Cost: 14,640,160 C-bills
Type: Primus Libertas
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Tonnage: 85
Battle Value: 1,449
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 8.5
Engine 255 Fusion 13
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sink 18 8
Gyro 3
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor (Primitive) 160 15
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 27 24
Center Torso (rear) 11
R/L Torso 18 20
R/L Torso (rear) 10
R/L Arm 14 12
R/L Leg 18 16
Right Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Left Arm Actuators: Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm, Hand
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Heat Tonnage
2 Heat Sink LL 2 - 2.0
Large Pulse Laser CT 2 10 7.0
Arrow IV RT 15 10 15.0
4 Heat Sink LA 4 - 4.0
Arrow IV Davy Crocket-M Ammo (8) LT 8 - 8.0
CASE LT 1 - 0.5
Arrow IV Ammo (15) LT 3 - 3.0
2 Heat Sink RL 2 - 2.0
TAG HD 1 0 1.0
Based on that video, you're just missing a Bombast Laser... ;DConsidered it, but given the syberia connection i gave it, the weapon's introdate wouldn't allow it. And i doubt wasteworld could have invented it themselves.
so i had a silly brainworm, and while i ultimately decided it truly belonged on Wasteworld, i'm posting it here for what i hope will be obvious reasons.
...
yes.. Liberty Prime (https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Liberty_Prime). originally i'd imagined it as a syberian 'evil optimus'.. but the more i worked on making the mech work, the more i realized that i really needed to remain closer to its inspiration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3l6oGGcROA
I've been periodically tweaking my copies here. But it will be some time before I have a final copy to give you.Keep me in the know and I will adjust make a new version
- Herb