Naval Pictures VII: Underway, Shift Colors!

[Sabelkatten]

Since they put the sign at the bow, that's not an unreasonable precaution in that era...  8)

I'm fairly sure that's the stern...?

[Daryk]

*Squints*… That could be it... the two turrets threw me off...

[Ruger]

*Squints*… That could be it... the two turrets threw me off...

It’s the stern. There’s no bridge superstructure between the turrets and the (rear) funnel.

Ruger

[Wrangler]

Question is. What is that crooked box near aft funnel?

[kato]

Battleships going down the Tyne had to collapse their masts to fit under bridges. The "box" is the spotting top on the forward mast, dipped backwards towards the stern.

HMS Agincourt nicely showing the collapsed mast in 1914, dipped forward instead:

[Euphonium]

Interesting that the first turret has it's guns but the superfiring turret doesn't yet

[Wrangler]

That must been a lot work re-adjust the masts and firecontrols attached to them.

[Wrangler]

The Imperial Protected Cruiser, Aurora in 1910.  She still afloat to this day as a museum ship.

[PsihoKekec]

And it had a complete refit few years ago, so it will be around for quite some time. I think they cut off entire bottom section and replaced it.

[Nightlord01]

And it had a complete refit few years ago, so it will be around for quite some time. I think they cut off entire bottom section and replaced it.

Bottom section how? Anything more than removing hull plates and I can't buy it, if you try taking the bottom of a ship off it will never survive the process, most of the longitudinal strength is at the very bottom of the ship, along the spine.

[Cannonshop]

Bottom section how? Anything more than removing hull plates and I can't buy it, if you try taking the bottom of a ship off it will never survive the process, most of the longitudinal strength is at the very bottom of the ship, along the spine.

to be pedantic, "Keel", not 'Spine", but you're absolutely correct in what you're saying (aside from the technical language.)

That said, it's potentially possible that they completely dismantled th ship and did a keel-up rebuild with reusing the parts from above the waterline and a new-build keel and ribs below it.  It would be kind of a ship-of-theseus, but it's possible...in theory.  Certainly would be an interesting demonstration of both wealth, and technical prowess.

[Wrangler]

There wasn't info on the refit (pictures anyways) what they actually did.  They showed the drydock they worked on and there was english translation of the work but you did't get see the keep itself cut.  Some of the issues was the location where she chained up has a lot ice, solid ice, that pushes against the hull among things on her.  The image below and the article are of a 2nd refit (post Soviet) refit of the ship vs the one in 1984 where she was suppose to have been cut up given new lower hull.

This is the article on the work.



The blogger who did this article shows that the under half of the ship has weld marks from the earlier repair.  He also notes that the rudder of the ship itself appears to be wood still and has managed to survive mostly intact since the ship was built.   Also the bow itself appears to be still original, and appears to be bronzes according to the blogger.



The en.Wikipedia  article goes on to say that the original lower part the hull that was tow and sunk in the gulf of Finland.    Which i find bit strange, i wish there were pics of that.

[Wrangler]

As side note as i was looking up the Aurora, it appears her sister ship murky demise.  The Pallada, was the lead ship of her class.

She was fought in the Russo-Japanese War in 1904.  In Battle of Yellow Sea, she was sunk by Japanese.


Her background gets bit confusing.....one she was raised by Japanese eventually was made into a Minesweeper and then sunk in 1924.

There a Finnish diving team claims to have found her in Gulf of Finnland where she was torpedoed by Germans during WW1. They showed pictures of the hull which was blown a part by the explosion.  Enough her was left to identify and she was first ship to be lost in World War I.   Anyone have any idea which ship this is? It can't be the Pallada.  Diana was scrapped after World War I in Germany.

The Fin team certain found a Pre-dreadnought warship, which one i'm not sure now.   To note the sunken ship has the old eagle crest that the Aurora used to sport during her pre-soviet years.  I think anyways. Hard tell it's upside down. 

[Nightlord01]

to be pedantic, "Keel", not 'Spine", but you're absolutely correct in what you're saying (aside from the technical language.)

That said, it's potentially possible that they completely dismantled th ship and did a keel-up rebuild with reusing the parts from above the waterline and a new-build keel and ribs below it.  It would be kind of a ship-of-theseus, but it's possible...in theory.  Certainly would be an interesting demonstration of both wealth, and technical prowess.

You sir are technically correct, the best kind of correct! :-)

I'd shudder to think of the expense of a complete teardown and rebuild, it's expensive enough with a car, where it usually costs anywhere up to ten times the actual value of the vehicle!

[Sabelkatten]

The ship is both culturally and politically important, so I guess money wasn't really an object...

[Wrangler]

More ships....Japanese IronClad Azuma in 1878-1879, sold to the Imperial Navy by the US after it had been serving in the Confederate Navy as the CSS Stonewall.


The ship was play a key role in Japanese history, as it actions lead in the Boshin War lead to the unification of the country starting the Meiji Restoration era.

Note: Image was originally posted on Reddit.

[grimlock1]

I've been watching a fair bit of Drachinifel and a question occurred to me. He often gives a time of sinking.  When is a ship considered "sunk?"
Entire vessel goes below the water?
When the vessel hits the bottom?  That doesn't make a whole lot of sense in the open ocean but could be applicable in harbors or channels...

[Daryk]

In harbors or channels, "beached" is an option (see USS NEVADA at Pearl Harbor).

[Euphonium]

I remember reading somewhere of a case in WWII where the RAF claimed to have sunk a German warship by bombing and the RN said the ship didn't count as sunk beacause due to the shallowness of the harbour it's main deck was still above water, even though the hull was open to the sea and it was sitting on the bottom.

[Luciora]

I want to say sunk means enough of the ship going under water without without immediate option or desire of recovery, regardless of location.  Beached implies concious effort to keep the ship recoverable in a reasonable intact state.

I've been watching a fair bit of Drachinifel and a question occurred to me. He often gives a time of sinking.  When is a ship considered "sunk?"
Entire vessel goes below the water?
When the vessel hits the bottom?  That doesn't make a whole lot of sense in the open ocean but could be applicable in harbors or channels...

[Luciora]

Sounds like a petty internal argument between branches about a kill.  The ship is still considered a loss, regardless.

I remember reading somewhere of a case in WWII where the RAF claimed to have sunk a German warship by bombing and the RN said the ship didn't count as sunk beacause due to the shallowness of the harbour it's main deck was still above water, even though the hull was open to the sea and it was sitting on the bottom.

[kato]

When is a ship considered "sunk?"

A ship rapidly goes down from the moment when the combined weight of the ship and the water taken on exceeds its buoyancy provided by the air still enclosed within it. That's the point in time where it "sinks".

Before this point - regarding damage control in a military environment in particular - the possibility of pumping out water at equivalent speed to it entering the hull or constraining the breach to a certain section of the hull still exists, for the purpose of avoiding the above point.

Consider an idealized ship that weighs 10,000 tons, has 5,000 m³ of enclosed space from the keel to the waterline and another 10,000 m³ of enclosed space from the waterline to the freeboard. This ship now receives a torpedo hit at the waterline that rips a one-meter wide hole into the side of which half lays below the waterline itself. As a result of this breach the ship takes on approximately 500 tons of water per minute. If it does not combat this breach through pumping, cofferdams, closed bulkheads etc the ship sinks approximately 5 minutes later.

[worktroll]

Sounds like a petty internal argument between branches about a kill.

Exactly. The ship in question was the Tirpitz, the RAF had mission-killed it by dropping 6-ton bombs on it (Tallboys dropped by 617 Squadron), and the Navy was not at all happy that the upstarts were claiming that ship's hide at all, at all ...

[Wrangler]

Didn't know this happened.  Not great day for the Big E.  She ran into a sand bar.  (Someone was just at the bar when they tried sail her in 1983.)

[Daryk]

Grounding is never good...  :-\

[Colt Ward]

So . . . that day the Captain retired, the XO retired, and the OOD (if not the one of the previous) retired . . . did I miss anyone?

[Daryk]

The OOD didn't retire... career ended, certainly, but just as certainly not old enough to retire.

The closest I ever came to that was after turning the ship coming in to San Diego (anyone who's sailed into that port will know which turn I'm talking about):

CO: "Conning Officer, come here for a second..."

Me: "Yes, sir!"

CO: Pointing aft, after we steadied up after the turn: "See that buoy?"

Me: "Yes sir."

CO: "See the wake?"

Me: "Yes, sir..." (With growing trepidation... one edge of the churned water was between the buoy and the beach.)

CO: "Never do that again."

Me: "Aye, aye sir!"

I had wanted to turn MUCH earlier than the pilot, but he kept insisting I should wait.  I ended up turning before the pilot wanted, but obviously AFTER the CO wanted to turn.  The lesson I took away from that was that harbor pilots might know the port, but they don't know YOUR ship better than you do.  Also that my CO had literal nerves of steel, and was willing to let us junior officers LEARN.  It was sad he never made Admiral... those are the kind of leaders we need!

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, my unit had a legend (because a great story becomes that after time) about a incident back in the 80s (digging says 82) . . .

Gun line was doing its annual shoot into the impact zone, firing platoons new butter bar going through the routine of firing the guns and just gives the order when he notices something.  The last gun on the line has the chief standing there with empty hands- one of these things are not like the other!  Before he can get a ceasefire called the guns shoot.

One of the safety procedures in practice firing (at least) is that the gun chief stands  at the base of the piece showing the extra bag charges in his hands.  Everyone else was showing a charge in each hand.  The last gun chief had no charges in his hands . . .

 . . . the round went off base.  Which means it flew over the impact zone, over the other training areas (areas are a ring around the mountainous IZ), and continued north off base . . .

 . . . before the live shells impacted in the empty parking lot of a restaurant which happened to be owned by a retired officer.  From what I understand he was a good sport BUT . . . that butter bar was transferred to a HQ unit fast.  The FDO (usually the XO) and BC also found themselves doing other jobs quickly.  And I think I heard the gun chief was working in the motor pool after that incident.  The stinky stuff rolling down hill splattered a lot of folks.

[Daryk]

Ouch... You know that butter bar's career flashed before their eyes in that split second... And I can only HOPE that resulted in a change in procedure that would give future butter bars the opportunity to call a cease fire before rounds were sent down range.

[Colt Ward]

Oh he did his visual check from what I understand but he 'looked' without actually seeing.