Archangel Invictus Variant as a Fantastic Command Mech?

[Tangoforone]

So I am putting together a WoB MD force for a game in February, and the Field Commander is piloting the Archangel Invictus.  Using Interstellar Operations for implants, I accidentally discovered this might be one of the best command mechs in the game, considering what a command unit should do (like the Mobile HQ).  I had been told the Invictus variant is woefully dreadful in damage output (25), and I did not use it for a long time due to that, but now it is time to open our mind-eye and look past damage output

Starting the pilot at a 3/4, below are the following implants that he has been granted and why they matter:

-VDNI:  Obviously this is critical for the small cockpit.  -1/-1 to gunnery/piloting brings his total to 2/4 (BV cost is now at 2/3)

-Artificial Pain Shunt:  Obviously this is critical to implement with the VDNI.  Ignore piloting damage to VDNI feedback from internal structure and critical hits, heat effects, and ammunition explosions. (BV cost is now 2/2)

-Dermal Armor Implants:  Ignore pilot damage from falling and hits to the head (BV cost is now 1/1)

-Triple-Core Processor (this is the fun one):  +2 initiative bonus and +1 initiative bonus w/ C3i (+3 to force initiative roll total).  This would drop down to +2 only if an enemy ECM was within range of the Archangel, however because the Invictus carries a Guardian ECM, this downside is negated, and the Guardian ECM acts as a counter ECM that negates enemy interference (my understanding means that my C/O getting cut off from C3i is not a concern, so long as he is in range of the opposing ECM).  Not only this, but my pilot automatically succeeds on all heat shutdown rolls, excluding the 30 heat threshold.  This is a fairly cool mech, but not a bad feature.  And finally, this pilot may execute aimed shots as if the unit is equipped with a Targeting Computer; since the Invictus is already equipped with a TC, this pilot may apply a -1 to the 'to-hit' roll when making aimed shots.  (BV Cost is now 0/1)

Final cost of the Archangel Invictus, with a 2/4 skilled pilot, comes in at 5,167 BV.  Not bad for how impossibly painful it will be to put this fellow down.  Is this BV worthwhile for a 100 ton zombie-mech that is a 3/5/3 mover and can only output 25 points of damage out to a range of 15 hexes?  Let me know your thoughts, and I will post how he faired after the game (around the first week of February)

[Maelwys]

Cybernetics can definitely help the Archangel Invictus, though I'm not really sure it helps it better than any other unit in the game.

One thing to keep in mind, that even with ALL the zombieness of the design, and all the benefits from the cybernetics, a GR to the head will still kill it dead.

With 25 damage, plus the physicals, one other problem the Invictus can have...it can be ignored. You can mitigate it somewhat with called shots against weakened locations, but it barely outdamages at range a Wolfhound.

Of course, its an Omni, so if you don't like it after the first battle, it can always change...

Oh, and don't forget to look at the quirks. You can get a free BAP out of it...

[Caedis Animus]

One thing to keep in mind, that even with ALL the zombieness of the design, and all the benefits from the cybernetics, a GR to the head will still kill it dead.

I never quite 'got' why they didn't bother giving the Archangel a T-MC. I mean, I get that the theme of the Celestials was 'small cockpit because Cyberbois', but I feel like being the only Celestial with that would go a long way towards establishing the Archangel as an 'unkillable monster' as it were.

[Maelwys]

I don't have the time to dig through it, but I'm not sure if the Torso-Mounted Cockpit can take a DNI system or not, which may have been a consideration.

[Tangoforone]

I'm not sure that I would want a torso mounted cockpit.  I get that there is significantly more armor in that location, but with the hit location table as it stands, the center torso is always under fire.  And while it mounts a significant amount of armor in the rear, I can't say that it has the maneuverability to avoid enemies getting in the rear, though the jump jets help, so it really does come down to winning initiative and having your forces keep the enemy from getting at it. 

Fortunately it doesn't really seem to need to brawl (though a 100 ton mech with a retractable blade isn't anything to sneeze at) as its weapons have decent ranges, with the Plasma Rifle reaching 15 and the Heavy PPC reaching 18.  If it stays back and effectively uses the C3i, it could ignore range modifiers completely.

I have never played a mech with a torso mounted cockpit so I would have to rely on your experience as to whether or not they are more survivable.  My big concern is the snake eyes roll on the to-hit chart could lead to an instant kill.  While it still can, it's much less likely to roll a 12 on number of crits and hit the engine three times or the gyro twice, while just getting one critical hit has a chance of taking out the cockpit.

[Maelwys]

You might want to look into an "Edge" stat, depending on how much you want to play around with things, just to kind of smooth out some of the jolts for the RNG.

And if the Invictus doesn't work, well, its an Omni, so there are always other choices of variants :)

[Caedis Animus]

I have never played a mech with a torso mounted cockpit so I would have to rely on your experience as to whether or not they are more survivable.  My big concern is the snake eyes roll on the to-hit chart could lead to an instant kill.  While it still can, it's much less likely to roll a 12 on number of crits and hit the engine three times or the gyro twice, while just getting one critical hit has a chance of taking out the cockpit.

I play with Floating Crits at any tech above intro, so this isn't as much of a problem at second glance.

Which, arguably, is kind of a rule you should be using if you're in a game where T-MCs and tech like it are in play.

[Greatclub]

I think I'd rather have my commander in something more mobile. Archangel might be tough, but it's also slow; making it a "Kill it now, with fire" priority target by putting your initiative booster in it is unlikely to end well. It's also easy to get an ECM near. 

Preta Dominus, OTOH, is a mech few others can both catch and put down. It's also a lot cheaper in BV, so you can buy more & bigger mechs to benefit from the boost you're handing out.

[Caedis Animus]

I think I'd rather have my commander in something more mobile. Archangel might be tough, but it's also slow; making it a "Kill it now, with fire" priority target by putting your initiative booster in it is unlikely to end well. It's also easy to get an ECM near. 

Preta Dominus, OTOH, is a mech few others can both catch and put down. It's also a lot cheaper in BV, so you can buy more & bigger mechs to benefit from the boost you're handing out.

I'd argue more for a Deva Infernus. Twin ERPPCs and an ECM unit means it can lead from the back and help the frontline with supporting fire, and you can expect it to be durable enough to take a hit or two.

[Maelwys]

On the other hand, why not go whole hog and go with the Archangel Luminos? More durable theoretically, matches the twin ERPPCs of the Deva and has the GECM suite.

[Sir Chaos]

I think I'd rather have my commander in something more mobile. Archangel might be tough, but it's also slow; making it a "Kill it now, with fire" priority target by putting your initiative booster in it is unlikely to end well. It's also easy to get an ECM near. 

On the other hand, the Archangel is TOUGH, and it deals very little damage for either its size or the number of hits it can tank. In the time it takes to kill it, you could kill two, maybe three mechs that each deal more damage than the Archangel does.

[Weirdo]

I'm with the OP. While mobile command rides that can keep a commander out of trouble (or extricate them when the inevitable happens), are quite laudable, there is definitely something to be said for a machine likely to survive a heavy or sustained artillery bombardment, while a Preta or Malak caught in a lucky strike is going to want to look for ways to bug out pretty quickly.

Similarly, the weapons loadout is not a hindrance, but a bonus. Commanders don't fight, they command. Having a light load compared to other hundred-tonners means that inexperienced players are less likely to feel like they're wasting firepower by keeping the Archangel out of LoS, and having that load be predominantly medium to short range means nobody makes the mistake of trying to use their commander as a sniper.

So you end up with a machine that stays behind cover for much of the battle, but when headhunters do come after it, even factoring in the fact that anything can happen in a game with headcaps and TaCs, the Archangel is extremely likely to survive such a strike, and possibly even fight it off solo.

In fact, I really want to play this scenario now. A command Archangel with a couple escorts(not sure what yet, but we'll tentatively max it out at a combined arms L2), vs a Jihad-era force (any faction, composition up to the player within the bounds of DBaJ) with 150% the BV of the WoB player. Victory objectives are simple: If the WoB commander is destroyed, the Attacker wins. Any other result is a WoB victory. Sounds fun?

[dgorsman]

Going all the way back to the top: commanding what?  Level II?  Level III?  If the former, is it light, medium, heavy?

[Weirdo]

Level III or higher. Command rides like this are for units big enough that you can afford to keep mechs away from the front line without seriously depleting your strength, but need a command post that can move when needed and defeat headhunter attacks.

[Colt Ward]

I do not know, I have a aversion to putting the CO in something that is only going to be faster than a 3025 Annihilator.  I absolutely support a rugged design that is fast enough to get out of the way or respond to changes, especially when it mounts long range weapons.

[Weirdo]

Fast and rugged I definitely like, but I'm still against giving commanders long-range weapons. Too much temptation for players to move their COs into LoS with enemy units. Commander/Enemy LoS is something that happens when said enemy contacts your plan, but it should never be part of the initial plan unless combat is taking place on a featureless plain.

LRMs or artillery? Okay, I'll agree with those.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, I was thinking mostly LRMs . . . and I will admit, its influenced by most of the war-game style battles I fight are on MM and use double blind.  The servers had a set up for a long time where you had to have a commander per a lance of mechs and for a company of armor (if you used it) . . . commanders fell and you had the init penalty IIRC.  People got pretty cagey about the COs and some folks in large battles went headhunter if they had the right force mix.

I think the Patriot sort of does it right, except too slow.  The 2C version has AMS, ECM and TAG while sporting a A4 as its contribution to the rest of the battalion or regiment its commanding.  Something gets close, the Patriot can TAG it to allow others to come to the CO's aide while offering that big 15 point hit for anyone who gets too close.

[Weirdo]

Sounds to me like you want to stick your boss in a trebuchet...which coincidentally puts you in the same group as the vast majority of working adults. :)

[Colt Ward]

Lol, in the past sure . . . but I work for a pretty good mom & pop right now.

Then again, I do not like to get bogged down with 3/5 designs unless the object is to pull a Jaguar and smash into the defenses head first.  For me it was part of the disappointment with the Celestials that both heavies were 4/6, I would have liked a faster Omni in that range using the new tech but considering what the Shadow Divisions were to do, it makes some sense.

[Weirdo]

Remember, the Domini used more than just Celestials. Sounds to me like your Blakist boss-ride of choice might be a White Flame.

[Arkansas Warrior]

So I am putting together a WoB MD force for a game in February, and the Field Commander is piloting the Archangel Invictus.  Using Interstellar Operations for implants, I accidentally discovered this might be one of the best command mechs in the game, considering what a command unit should do (like the Mobile HQ).  I had been told the Invictus variant is woefully dreadful in damage output (25), and I did not use it for a long time due to that, but now it is time to open our mind-eye and look past damage output

Starting the pilot at a 3/4, below are the following implants that he has been granted and why they matter:

-VDNI:  Obviously this is critical for the small cockpit.  -1/-1 to gunnery/piloting brings his total to 2/4 (BV cost is now at 2/3)

-Artificial Pain Shunt:  Obviously this is critical to implement with the VDNI.  Ignore piloting damage to VDNI feedback from internal structure and critical hits, heat effects, and ammunition explosions. (BV cost is now 2/2)

-Dermal Armor Implants:  Ignore pilot damage from falling and hits to the head (BV cost is now 1/1)

-Triple-Core Processor (this is the fun one):  +2 initiative bonus and +1 initiative bonus w/ C3i (+3 to force initiative roll total).  This would drop down to +2 only if an enemy ECM was within range of the Archangel, however because the Invictus carries a Guardian ECM, this downside is negated, and the Guardian ECM acts as a counter ECM that negates enemy interference (my understanding means that my C/O getting cut off from C3i is not a concern, so long as he is in range of the opposing ECM).  Not only this, but my pilot automatically succeeds on all heat shutdown rolls, excluding the 30 heat threshold.  This is a fairly cool mech, but not a bad feature.  And finally, this pilot may execute aimed shots as if the unit is equipped with a Targeting Computer; since the Invictus is already equipped with a TC, this pilot may apply a -1 to the 'to-hit' roll when making aimed shots.  (BV Cost is now 0/1)

Final cost of the Archangel Invictus, with a 2/4 skilled pilot, comes in at 5,167 BV.  Not bad for how impossibly painful it will be to put this fellow down.  Is this BV worthwhile for a 100 ton zombie-mech that is a 3/5/3 mover and can only output 25 points of damage out to a range of 15 hexes?  Let me know your thoughts, and I will post how he faired after the game (around the first week of February)

An MD in any mech could get most of those same benefits.  What is it about the Archangel Invinctus specifically that makes it a good command mech?

[Weirdo]

Tough enough to handle a headhunter or artillery strike, well-armed enough to fight off said headhunters, but not armed in such a way that players can be suckered into using it as a sniper or generic assault mech.

[Colt Ward]

Remember, the Domini used more than just Celestials. Sounds to me like your Blakist boss-ride of choice might be a White Flame.

Oh yeah, I consider them sort of like the Death Commandos- does the mech exist during the time frame?  Yes . . . then it could exist in a Shadow Division.  But among the Omnis the SD can field from the IS, the Black Hawk KU is the only heavy that is 5/8 . . . then again, I am not really sure a command mech should be a Omni- your wasting their advantage of changeable load-outs and BA carrying.  If your battalion or regiment fields a Omni, then they should be the tip of the spear since they SHOULD have a advantage against standard battlemechs.

[Weirdo]

I dunno... standard engine, good mobility and armor, several configs give crazy medium-close punch...and doesn't the Triple-Core Processor also provide overheat-related benefits? You could do a lot worse than a Black Hawk KU...

[Tangoforone]

An MD in any mech could get most of those same benefits.  What is it about the Archangel Invinctus specifically that makes it a good command mech?

Specifically, the Archangel Invictus already has the GECM and the Targeting Computer so the effects from TCP are enhanced, as well as a C3i system.  And like others said, I think the command mech shouldn't be super fast and should stay behind.  It's also super underpowered so why waste valuable ammunition and time chipping (literally in the Archangels case) away at armor when more dangerous weapon platforms exist. 

Thinking back to the Civil War/Napoleonic era specifically, but any era could be considered, leaders of the force were on the battlefield, but were far behind the battle lines issuing commands to the battalions/regiments via horse riders.  I'm not an expert on Civil War tactics, but I imagine the battlefield commander was likely not handed a musket and sent to the front line to lead.  Obviously there are events that differ from this, Julius Caesar leading charges into the enemy stand out, but speaking generally commanders don't/shouldn't get into the thick of combat.  They are commanders for reasons, and their talent leading and the investment it took for them to be leaders should not be risked in order to muck about trying to kill a Locust or an LRM carrier.

[Maelwys]

It also has the command mech quirk, so if you're playing with those turned on, then you gain an initiative bonus, though I have to admit, I have no idea how quirk and implants stack off hand.

[Col Toda]

Wow 5000+ BV for just 1 mech . For that much BV for that 1 mech I could field  9 LRM trailers with 5 LRM 15s with 8 turns of duration  .  With average gunners about 9 at medium  range say 40 + percent  or so hits 45 shots say 19 hits at 9 damage per turn at a price of about 12 million C Bill's.  .  Running 5   3 turns gets short range . Maybe 240 ish damage before it gets over the hill you are behind .  Add rubble fields to slow closure . That just represents  the BV of 1 mech .  Yes it is a nice command mech but in an even BV situation  the MD unit can get drowned in numbers . Though a more normal  op force would attempt to blunt the initiative  advantage with a Command Console. The MD unit would still have an initiative  advantage .

[Church14]

Minor thought. But bVDNI gets you the same result as VDNI here but at less BV penalty if I understand it correctly.

Also, did Dermal Implants get errata? As best I could follow it, my copy of IO lists them as having no BV penalty for a mech. Which seems weird.

[grimlock1]

-VDNI:  Obviously this is critical for the small cockpit.  -1/-1 to gunnery/piloting brings his total to 2/4 (BV cost is now at 2/3)

-Artificial Pain Shunt:  Obviously this is critical to implement with the VDNI.  Ignore piloting damage to VDNI feedback from internal structure and critical hits, heat effects, and ammunition explosions. (BV cost is now 2/2)

-Dermal Armor Implants:  Ignore pilot damage from falling and hits to the head (BV cost is now 1/1)

Why not a buffered VDNI?  Although from what I can see in IO, pain shunt nerfs everything that bVDNI does and more...

Although VDNI is available to Omegas, but bVDNI is only available to Omicrons.  Does that mean an up and coming MD would have to bank on making Omicron, or could they get the VDNI and trade it out for the buffered version later?

[Church14]

Why not a buffered VDNI?  Although from what I can see in IO, pain shunt nerfs everything that bVDNI does and more...

Although VDNI is available to Omegas, but bVDNI is only available to Omicrons.  Does that mean an up and coming MD would have to bank on making Omicron, or could they get the VDNI and trade it out for the buffered version later?

The difference (as best I understand) between VDNI with pain shunts and bVDNI with pain shunts *for a mech with a small cockpit* is that you pay an extra pilot skill BV penalty for VDNI.

VDNI will reduce actual pilot skill while bVDNI ignores the small cockpit penalty. You do have a slightly higher risk of pilot damage from falls with bVDNI as it doesn’t reduce your pilot skill