Mech design decisions that make no sense

[truetanker]

Ah... your wrong, in-direct and a Peeper to slam home.

I'd rather soften you up then knife fight at range... take care of my range. I've got the speed... I can dictate your response...

TT

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

ATMs can't be fired indirect, and a single ATM-3's 1-3 points of damage doesn't really complement the ER PPC enough to be worth it IMO.

[The_Caveman]

One 2-3 point damage cluster, and not enough ammo to make it stick. You can expend the whole bin and maybe get one head roll. Since you have the PPC there is no point whatsoever to ER ATMs.

HE ammo is the way to go, for a potential 9 damage across two clusters. 2.5 tons and 3 heat for 9 damage, that's one of the best tonnage investments in the game. Open some big holes with the PPC, then close and finish them off with the secondaries.

[SCC]

Decision I would have done differently: 3x Streak-2s instead of a single Streak-6 on the Snake (now that Inferno rules are different, naturally).

Well apart from the fact that at the time the design was put into production the IS couldn't manufacture Streak launcher's in racks greater then 2, and wouldn't be able to until 5 years later.

[grimlock1]

iATMs and ATMs on same mech is a novel idea...

Allows me to use the alternative ammos effectively...

Also should cause people to take a look at what I did there moment!

Able to fire three types, the Improved also allows me Inferno, short range only, and Magnetic Pulse ( for every 3 missiles hit up to +2 < 6 missiles > to target-to hit, walking / running up to -2 MP < 6 missiles, -1 for 3 >, every missile over 3 = + 1 heat )

And then I fire ATMs on top of this... for more crunch factor!

TT

I'm not tracking the benefit here... iATMs are the same weight, same size as regular ATMS. iATM ammo, be it ER, HE or regular, does everything that ATM ammo does, and more.

It seems like you're arguing there is a good reason to have an ATM 6 and an iATM 6 on the same mech.

[Luciora]

Maybe you pissed off the purchasing office or they got swindled?

I'm not tracking the benefit here... iATMs are the same weight, same size as regular ATMS. iATM ammo, be it ER, HE or regular, does everything that ATM ammo does, and more.

It seems like you're arguing there is a good reason to have an ATM 6 and an iATM 6 on the same mech.

[TigerShark]

The only reasons to EVER take ATMs over iATMs are:

1. Staying within canon, since  iATMs don't exist outside of the Wars of Reaving timeline and post-Reaving Homeworlds
2. Keeping BV low, since iATMs are a bit more pricey
3. You've too much ammunition and need every shot to waste part of the bin, lest you risk an explosion later

Otherwise, iATMs are superior in every way.

[Colt Ward]

4.  The unit quartermaster has a LOT of ATM pods and the Star Colonel says your machine does not qualify for the limited iATM pods.
5.  Your unit only has ATM ammo.

[Sir Chaos]

6. You are a Clan warrior and do not need superior weaponry to utterly destroy your foe.

[TigerShark]

6. You are a Clan warrior and do not need superior weaponry to utterly destroy your foe.

A Clan warrior wouldn't purposely pick garbage unless it was part of a bid. If a standard ATM was all that's available, they'd take it. But given a Clan PPC versus a vintage Star League model, they'd choose the Clan version every time, unless trying to prove some kind of point regarding skill.

[Scotty]

Well apart from the fact that at the time the design was put into production the IS couldn't manufacture Streak launcher's in racks greater then 2, and wouldn't be able to until 5 years later.

Anyone who responded to my post to make this correction appears to have missed the forest for trees.  The entire point I was making is that the difference between one weapon system and another that does the same thing is academic, not a design flaw.

[Colt Ward]

Eh . . . the Arcas taught me to love trio SSRM4s over SSRM6s . . . and the cheapskate in me appreciates the extra 10 missiles a ton for any SRM ammo that is not feeding a 6.

[Sir Chaos]

A Clan warrior wouldn't purposely pick garbage unless it was part of a bid. If a standard ATM was all that's available, they'd take it. But given a Clan PPC versus a vintage Star League model, they'd choose the Clan version every time, unless trying to prove some kind of point regarding skill.

"Trying to prove some kind of point regarding skill" is pretty much the point of the bidding system. If I can defeat you, who uses iATM, with standard ATM, I prove that I am much better at this than you are.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, except that the Clans have always been about trying to use the most advanced weapons tech they could, not the least.  Otherwise they'd have invaded the Inner Sphere with Primitive mechs.

[truetanker]

Otherwise they'd have invaded the Inner Sphere with Primitive mechs.

That Mackie better have a HAG and ER Pulse weapons on it!!!

TT

[Colt Ward]

Dunno . . . I RP'd a Wolf warrior using a standard battlemech, and in one case lighter, to defeat several Falcons, to be insulting to them when calling a Trial of Grievance.  I want to say there have been a few Trials where that was done.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

In TRO 3055 Upgrade, the Notable Pilot for the Hercules was a Clan warrior who deliberately used an inferior machine to demonstrate her skill.

[massey]

Like beating somebody in Street Fighter using Dan.

[The_Caveman]

Yeah, except that the Clans have always been about trying to use the most advanced weapons tech they could, not the least.  Otherwise they'd have invaded the Inner Sphere with Primitive mechs.

They use high tech in order to do more with less. Every Clan could have a hundred galaxies of standard-everything 5/8 medium 'Mechs with a couple ERML but it wouldn't maximize the chance for glory of individual warriors.

[Starfury]

Ignoring the debate over ATMs vs items, the Snake's new descriptive text and updated variants with stealth/and or Plasma Rifles explain that the actual target of the Snake was IS battle armor, which make sense.  Inner Sphere Standard only has 10 pts counting the trooper, and using scatter shot backed by the 3 Streak 2s means you have at a good chance of hitting multiple targets. The Snake also has 5/8/5 movement, so it can buzz around outside the range of most battle armor as well.  It's also a good anti-vehicle unit, is pretty low cost, and is a good export for the CC's allies.  It works pretty well for the Magistracy of Canopus when teamed up with Calliopes.

[Greatclub]

3. You've too much ammunition and need every shot to waste part of the bin, lest you risk an explosion later

If you're using ATM as primary weapons, you NEED that ammo. Standard ATM are expensive enough in BPV and inefficient enough in damage/ton-of-ammo (Outside of HE range) that even the Turkina D is sucking for enough ammo to kill its BPV in other units.

In my experience, of course, with the assumption that you're fighting decently armoured units; killing equal BPV(2) in Hellbringer isn't hard at all.

[Colt Ward]

Ignoring the debate over ATMs vs items, the Snake's new descriptive text and updated variants with stealth/and or Plasma Rifles explain that the actual target of the Snake was IS battle armor, which make sense.  Inner Sphere Standard only has 10 pts counting the trooper, and using scatter shot backed by the 3 Streak 2s means you have at a good chance of hitting multiple targets. The Snake also has 5/8/5 movement, so it can buzz around outside the range of most battle armor as well.  It's also a good anti-vehicle unit, is pretty low cost, and is a good export for the CC's allies.  It works pretty well for the Magistracy of Canopus when teamed up with Calliopes.

Um . . . you know the Plasma Rifle does MORE damage than those 10 points to BA?

Greatclub, are you talking about BV for TW fights or PV for AS fights?

[Greatclub]

Total Warfare. I've played little AS.

[SCC]

Um . . . you know the Plasma Rifle does MORE damage than those 10 points to BA?

Greatclub, are you talking about BV for TW fights or PV for AS fights?

Also if your fighting IS BA LB-X 10 in cluster mode is pointless as slug WILL eliminate a trooper.

Having gone through XTRO:SW earlier today I've got some good contenders:
FLE-14 if there has ever been a better case of pull the engine to power a vehicle I have yet to find it.
Anything mounting a collapsible command module, I'm still going to need an APC to move my staff around.
Kestrel Scout VOTL, you're not mounting a SFE why, exactly?
The Şoarece, ER Large Laser where still being manufactured at this time, why not use one of those?

[Starfury]

I'm aware the Plasma Rifle does more damage to infantry. However, the base Snake design didn't have access to Plasma Rifles until they were invented.  The stock Snake still does well vs battle armor that doesn't have reactive armor, and you can use it vs other units as well, especially when teamed up with Mechs that make up for its shortcomings, just like most designs.

If you want questionable designs, the 4/6 bass Cyclops under Total War without the benefit of a Command Console is a head scratcher, since it becomes an average version of the Victor with an LRM 10.  Also why we don't have modern updates for the remaing primitive designs under manufacture in the Dark Ages such as the Mackie or the Ymir, or upgrades on 3025 designs like the Mk1 Devastator for the Taurians is another area that should be explored. 

[dgorsman]

Also if your fighting IS BA LB-X 10 in cluster mode is pointless as slug WILL eliminate a trooper.

The -1 bonus from the cluster rounds is useful for countering the additional +1 to-hit penalty.  And the dispersion can eliminate several damaged troopers rather than just one.  That applies to all suits, not just those with 9 or less points of armor.

[Orin J.]

If you want questionable designs, the 4/6 bass Cyclops under Total War without the benefit of a Command Console is a head scratcher, since it becomes an average version of the Victor with an LRM 10. 

in 3025, a 4/6 AC/20 tooling around it its own benefit! it also makes for a potent bodyguard in a fire support lance while still having token conributions when nothing tries to stop said supporting fire, which the victor doesn't do.

[TigerShark]

in 3025, a 4/6 AC/20 tooling around it its own benefit! it also makes for a potent bodyguard in a fire support lance while still having token conributions when nothing tries to stop said supporting fire, which the victor doesn't do.

The design itself makes little sense for its role. It's a command 'Mech, but it spends 6 tons on fire support? Why? Its armor is so paper thin that even a half-hearted assault can put it in serious danger. Nothing about the Cyclops says "command" to me, anymore than a Hunchback does. They serve the exact, same combat role.

[Sir Chaos]

The design itself makes little sense for its role. It's a command 'Mech, but it spends 6 tons on fire support? Why? Its armor is so paper thin that even a half-hearted assault can put it in serious danger. Nothing about the Cyclops says "command" to me, anymore than a Hunchback does. They serve the exact, same combat role.

A commander shouldn´t get into the thick of battle... but with an AC/20, SRM-4 and two med lasers, you´d have to, in order to get into range of your weapons. So the LRM-10 is there to give the commander some way to "contribute" without getting into the thick of battle, and the thin armor is there to remind him that getting shot at - such as by getting into the think of battle - is a bad idea.

It´s a way to keep the commander safe. A stupid way to do so, but a way.

Myself, I´d rather have a 3025 Awesome or Stalker as a command mech than a 3025 Cyclops.

Heck, even the -3E Banshee makes more sense as a command mech - tough enough to not be easily taken out, not well-armed enough to be a threat worth concentrating on, fast for its size, and what weapons it has are almost all long-ranged enough that the commander can keep a distance from the enemy and still kinda contribute to the battle.

[Colt Ward]

Never want a commander in the Awesome or Stalker . . . the Cyc's AC/20, MLs and SRM4 are to shout 'Go AWAY' to anything head hunting.

The Awesome makes a really bad command mech b/c it should be the point of your spear grinding forward into the other guy's guts- it takes a LOT of killing.  Stalker?  Long range fire support advancing at a walk behind the troopers, it should be focused on giving LRMs and LLs out to cover the front line.

Now the Charger . . . with its armor, speed and weapons might be best as a command mech, it can get away from most things that can threaten to punch out its armor.