Clans against and inner sphere lance, what would you bid?

[Liam's Ghost]

EDIT: Because I'm a grumpy old man, I've shut this whole idea down. I'm not accepting bids anymore.

Backstory: It's 3001, the ice hellions invaded the inner sphere solo. The defenders of Somerset have acted in a manner that the clans would describe as shameful, the inner sphere would describe as unconventional, and I would describe as reasonable, but the invading commander has finally arranged a formal trial for the world.

The defenders are composed of a single medium lance: A Griffin, 2 Phoenix Hawk LAMs, and a Commando. None of these mechs or their pilots have yet seen action, so you have no idea of their competance, however they've spent the last couple weeks deliberately avoiding engagement, and they're militia.

Assume you're the Ice Hellions, what would you bid against them? At a minimum, your bid must include one Gargoyle (you choose the configuration) piloted by Star Colonel Luke Cage.

On saturday night, the lowest bid (with the exception of any that I judge as deliberately throwing things for the hellions) will be selected to resolve the engagement the following night. 

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Sooo... if the final bid must include a full on assault omnimech, I'd imagine the cutdown would probably be just Star Colonel Cage and his Gargoyle.

The winning bid might be something along the lines of only using a single ER PPC for weaponry.

I suppose that'd be my own bid, but it'd be provisional based on some assumptions that may or may not be correct:

this battle is said to be in 3001 as part of a Ice Hellion invasion... I'm presuming that this is still early enough into the invasion that noone knows what Clan stuff can even do, much less how to defeat it.  I'm kind of presuming this trial is even the closing stage of the very first Clan vs Inner Sphere planetary conquest ever attempted.  If that's all true, then absolutely.  One experienced trueborn piloting gargoyle with everything but a single ER PPC held behind its back is plenty to win that fight.  I'd expect that bid could even be substantially underbid.

[Saint]

I'd go with a Gargoyle A, thinking like a Clanner one Assault mech is nearly a bit much. 8)

As a counter bid I'll go with firing Large Pulse and Med Pulse,

[Tai Dai Cultist]

As a counter bid I'll go with firing Large Pulse and Med Pulse,

Now see, at this level of granularity we'll inevitably start to quibble about how bidding even works.  I'd question that a Large Pulse + Medium Pulse is even underbidding a single ER PPC.  A) it's two weapons to one.  B) It's 17 damage to 15.  C) yeah it's shorter range, but it has -2 to hit.    C makes it a wash in my mind, and A+B both make the 1 ER PPC sound like an undercut to Large Pulse + Medium Pulse :)

Of course, I think this would be a much more interesting bidding war if we didn't have the requirement for including a Gargoyle.

[Liam's Ghost]

So... you guys really think a gargoyle using only one or two of its weapons is somehow a reasonable means of defeating three medium and one light battlemech?

[Tai Dai Cultist]

So... you guys really think a gargoyle using only one or two of its weapons is somehow a reasonable means of defeating three medium and one light battlemech?

Yes.  Again, based off the assumptions I said upthread.  If there are surprises you haven't said (the IS pilots are all super elite, somehow still have LosTech in 3001, IS side isn't going to stand and fight, etc) then that could change things.. but objectively looking at a stand up fight?  Yep.  I'd take that bet.  A 15 point hit from an ER PPC is going internal on every mech in almost every location.  And if these are the riff raff they sound like, they won't fanatically fight to the end.  From a roleplaying perspective, I'd expect the IS side to surrender or flee after about 3-4 hits from that God Gun in this context.

  And looking at it from an appropriately Clanlike standard of overconfidence, I think a Gargoyle with a single ER PPC piloted by a presumably highly skilled Trueborn?  It's overkill even at that.

I guess we need to know:  Did the IS side actually agree to a final Trial (with the usual caveats about probable IS shenanigans), or is this a case of the Clanners having found the last pocket of IS resistance and we're discussing the bid for a force to go in without honor to wipe them out?  Is Star Colonel Cage a 3/4 pilot or something more "appropriate" to his having achieved such a high status?

[Valkerie]

I don't pretend to fully understand Clan bidding, but wouldn't the primary configuration be suitable for this?  2 LB 5-Xs, 2 SRM 6, and one small laser.  Not the most overpowering load-out ever for an assault Mech.  I would still find it a challenge to take out four Mechs with that (especially the way my dice have been lately  :-\ )  Or is the idea to be terrifically arrogant and presumptuous? 

[Liam's Ghost]

Yes.  Again, based off the assumptions I said upthread.  If there are surprises you haven't said (the IS pilots are all super elite, somehow still have LosTech in 3001, IS side isn't going to stand and fight, etc) then that could change things.. but objectively looking at a stand up fight?  Yep.  I'd take that bet.  A 15 point hit from an ER PPC is going internal on every mech in almost every location.  And if these are the riff raff they sound like, they won't fanatically fight to the end.  From a roleplaying perspective, I'd expect the IS side to surrender or flee after about 3-4 hits from that God Gun in this context.

  And looking at it from an appropriately Clanlike standard of overconfidence, I think a Gargoyle with a single ER PPC piloted by a presumably highly skilled Trueborn?  It's overkill even at that.

Expecting the inner sphere forces to flee, with virtually no prior experience against them, doesn't sound remotely like a Clan attitude. As you sussed out, this is one of the first battles of the invasion. And assuming off the bat that your enemies will just flee after a display of power is a HORRIBLE strategy in any situation.

And, being an Ice Hellion, being under any assumption that the smaller enemy mechs won't swarm your larger mech (being standard Ice Hellion tactics) is downright unreasonable for a officer who gained his rank by out killing his opponents and competitors.

Also, it's a bad idea in general. A Gargoyle with just one PPC is simply not as impressive as you seem to make it out to be.

I mean, I'm not saying that I won't use it, but it sounds an awful lot like handing the fight to the Inner Sphere.

I guess we need to know:  Did the IS side actually agree to a final Trial (with the usual caveats about probable IS shenanigans), or is this a case of the Clanners having found the last pocket of IS resistance and we're discussing the bid for a force to go in without honor to wipe them out?  Is Star Colonel Cage a 3/4 pilot or something more "appropriate" to his having achieved such a high status?

As I said upthread, it's a formal trial against a battlemech force that the Ice Hellions have yet to engage. To this point they've only fought orbital forces and ground based conventional units, and they know only that these mechs are militia and training forces.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

There's the perspective of the gamer from outside the BTU looking in, and there's the perspective of the characters inside the BTU.

From the perspective of the real life player:  Yeah, I'd expect to win with a single ER PPC (esp if I have better than 3/4 pilot) vs introtech Griffin, Commando, and 2x P-Hawk LAMs.  They don't have enough firepower to bring down an assault mech chassis by the time they're decimated.  We know that IS forces were dumbfounded by the Clans' superior tech and cut and run all the frikkin' time in the early REVIVAL waves.  As an objective player outside the BTU, yeah I'd expect the IS side to either "roleplay" that "WHAT IN HELL IS GOING ON" factor, or at least recognize the inevitable and throw in the towel long before the last mech has to be killed.  The challenge is in whether the LAMs have to be destroyed of if it's still a win if they successfully flee the battle.  Sufficiently confident that I'd feel that I'd have a serious chance of being underbid with even that bid.

From the perspective of an Ice Hellion officer trying to win the honor of leading the Trial: I'm having a hard time even seeing why the Gladiator has to be part of the bid.  I'd be looking at much smaller much faster stuff.  Especially on general principle as a Ice Hellion.  Both in-character and as a player of the game, I'd be looking at something like a Ryoken instead to mop them all up.  MAYBE flesh the force out to avoid the "all eggs in one basket" syndrome with an obnoxious light omnimech or two.  Not personally familiar enough with the Ice Hellions to know what's their favored flavor of lights, but I'm sure any of them would do.

But again, going back to out-of-game knowledge of IS forces that the Clanners wouldn't necessarily have at this very early stage of their invasion.. a Medium Omni and two light Omnis is MASSIVE overkill against a medium introtech lance.  I just grant that the Clanners may not realize it yet by this very early point.

EDIT: I suppose yet another point that'd factor into the bid is the terms of the trial.  Is this Trial becoming the proxy for the entire campaign to conquer the planet, or is it just the first battle of a more or less conventional-sounding planetary invasion campaign that happens to have mechs on both sides?  If the Clan side is on its honor to abandon the effort to take the planet if it loses the Trial, ok I can see maybe bidding more than just one ER PPC as insurance against an unlucky TAC.

[monbvol]

Some important context for the IS forces:

The conventional vehicle and infantry forces of the militia have clashed with the Ice Hellion forces on planet and there are survivor battlerom footage for these mech forces to reference and these vehicle forces even managed to down a some Ice Hellion mechs.

And the Griffen can take an ER PPC hit to any of it's torsos or the legs without it going internal.

Any further information would be outside the Ice Hellion's knowledge.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

If the bid HAS to include a Gargoyle, then I'm sticking to what I said.  Call it Config A with a final bid of powering down weapons other than one ER PPC.  If an unlucky TAC or other freakish event happens, fall back to the bid prior of the full power config and smash the Sphereoids with a bit less honor than otherwise.

I can't imagine why a handicapped Gargoyle is apparently below the Cutdown.  There has to be something more in surprise that isn't being said- no way can 4 introtech med/light mechs with 4/5 skills expect to face off against an expected Clan force of a Gargoyle plus more.  But in picking a force without knowing of such a surprising wrinkle, I said what I'd do.  Fall back to powering up all the guns if something obscene begins happening.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah . . . I think the bids so far are kind of ridiculous.

Using Tukayyid SB for their bidding formula I would consider the 2 LAMs as normal meds . . . which means the IS bid is 90 points (25+25+25+15).  Just a Gargoyle is probably below the cut down IMO, let alone a single weapon . . . those mechs have roughly the same speed if not more and I would think could swarm the Gargoyle under if the maps are right. A Clan assault is 90 points on that however and a Light is 25 points so . . .

Gargoyle D, Star Colonel Luke Cage
Elemental Poinst (Laser)

If you wish to avoid BA in the bid (which were never given points in Tukayyid, 10 seems to work when tested) then the following would be my suggestion-

Gargoyle Prime, Star Colonel Luke Cage
Mist Lynx B or C, Mechwarrior Regular Pilot

The Gargoyle's weaponry sort of drops to the level of a heavy to give the balance, and the Mist Lynx fits the Hellion's speed lust.  If you are willing to consider they may use SLDF left overs, the Locust 1Vb would also fit the Hellion's speedy tendencies and would be a lower bid point value than the Mist Lynx by 5.

And yeah, I agree with TDC the RP aspect when defenders try to call it quits and 'ransom' their mechs would get interesting.

[massey]

At a minimum, your bid must include one Gargoyle (you choose the configuration) piloted by Star Colonel Luke Cage.

...




Sweet Christmas, he doesn't even need a battlemech.

[Natasha Kerensky]

How many bombs can those P-Hawks drop before converting...?

[massey]

My bid would be a Gargoyle/Man O'War (configuration doesn't matter), one Dasher D, and a Fenris Prime.  The Man O'War will be shut down and will not engage in the fight at all.

[Daryk]

The LAMs complicate things (as usual).  Whatever the clan takes, it should have ALL the pulse lasers.

[Boomer8]

I bid three Fire Moths, all using the B loadout. Next bid step: 2 of them. And the required Gargoyle, which will reach the edge of the battlefield, and simply wait until needed.

Side note: BV for 3 fire moths is 2766, 2 is 1844. Enemy Lance comes in at 5697 (as best I can tell using Sarna)

[Mattlov]

As a Bloodnamed Star Colonel leading an invading frontline Cluster, I would expect our Clanner to be at WORST a 2/3 pilot, probably better.

Bidding the Star Colonel in a Gargoyle A is not an unreasonable bid.  The Inner Sphere forces have have never seen action, they should be 4/5 pilots AT BEST.  They will never hit the Star Colonel at long range, or if they jump.  The mobility of a LAM is pointless if you can't hit the broadside of a barn from inside of said barn.

At no point will the IS forces be able to engage the SC when he can't engage them back.  The Commando is going to die before it gets a second salvo fired, if it even gets the first one off.
The LAMs can draw out the engagement, but they still have a single large laser to the Gargoyle, which will always have a better range bracket.
The Griffin can stand back and try to indirect LRM fire from LAM spotters, but he isn't going to hit much if the SC stays at range.

Out side of bumrushing him and trying to physical him to death, I can't see this lance defeating the Star Colonel alone.

[Scotty]

Yeah . . . I think the bids so far are kind of ridiculous.

Using Tukayyid SB for their bidding formula I would consider the 2 LAMs as normal meds . . . which means the IS bid is 90 points (25+25+25+15).  Just a Gargoyle is probably below the cut down IMO, let alone a single weapon . . . those mechs have roughly the same speed if not more and I would think could swarm the Gargoyle under if the maps are right. A Clan assault is 90 points on that however and a Light is 25 points so . .

You're deliberately angling for an even fight?  Miserable surat!  Have some confidence in your own skill.

My own bid would be the Gargoyle with a single LB-10X and a Streak-6 (and enough ammo to use them both every turn for at least three minutes).

Seriously, I agree with TDC.  Forcing the inclusion of a Clan Assault is making this a really difficult bid.  I would expect that a 2/3 Clan bloodnamed Star Colonel would wipe the floor with a typical IS garrison Lance.  Gargoyle handicap or no handicap.

Unless the IS Lance is rocking pilots better than 3/4 (and we have absolutely zero reason to believe that) the Clan pilot is going to have a damage output significantly higher than the entire enemy lance.  A Commando is too slow and too underarmored to survive anything more than cursory attention.  The Griffin is the only real challenge in the composition, because Phoenix Hawk LAMs can best be described using "tissue paper" as a design goal to beat.

Now, all that said, I recognize the Crescent Hawks when I see them, and suspect that these IS pilots are in fact better than 3/4.  That doesn't actually change my bid, though, because that's what I'd bid based on the Clan commander's information.

[Liam's Ghost]

Few things I want to be clear about:

1) The skills of the inner sphere pilots are being withheld purely because the clan officer has no way of knowing them. That doesn't mean they aren't secretly hyper elite crack fiend pilots, simply that if they were, that wouldn't be why I'm hiding their skill.  :)

2) The Crescent Hawks don't exist in 3001 (at least I don't think they exist yet),  so no, it's not them.

3) The Ice Hellion Star Colonel has taken the frustration of this campaign personally, which is why he has to be included. One way or another, he demands to be there. I've been tight lipped on his specific abilities because from a realistic standpoint it would be difficult for him to express his skill in numbers, but he is an officer who earned his command in proper clan fashion, so he is very good at killing.

4) I will never stop chuckling at the repeated use of the term "A clan assault" when that assault mech in question is the Gargoyle, a mech where the only affect of it being an assault mech was to make it worse than it would have been if it were a heavy mech.
 
5) The current lowest bid, according to my judgment of the suggestions, stands at the Star Colonel's Gargoyle, outfitted in the A configuration, with a further stipulation of utilizing only a single PPC. Because the bidding got so granular, we will consider the option of using additional weapons as the "next lowest bid", thus if things go poorly, he will be allowed to use additional weapons at a small loss of honor. Even though I consider it a bad idea, It was still a legitimate bid with no intent to throw the match.

So anybody got a lower bid than that?

[Liam's Ghost]

...




Sweet Christmas, he doesn't even need a battlemech.

My first thought for his name was Nicholas.  ;D

[Tai Dai Cultist]

So anybody got a lower bid than that?

I would, if we didn't have to use the Gargoyle. 

I get that the Star Colonel wants to be personally involved.  Any reason he can't suit up in a smaller ride just for this one Trial so that a more "sensible" bid can be made?

[Scotty]

5) The current lowest bid, according to my judgment of the suggestions, stands at the Star Colonel's Gargoyle, outfitted in the A configuration, with a further stipulation of utilizing only a single PPC. Because the bidding got so granular, we will consider the option of using additional weapons as the "next lowest bid", thus if things go poorly, he will be allowed to use additional weapons at a small loss of honor. Even though I consider it a bad idea, It was still a legitimate bid with no intent to throw the match.

So anybody got a lower bid than that?

A Clan ER PPC is 412 BV.  An LB-10X with two tons of ammo and a Streak SRM-6 with one ton of ammo is just barely north of 300 BV.  ;)

[Liam's Ghost]

A Clan ER PPC is 412 BV.  An LB-10X with two tons of ammo and a Streak SRM-6 with one ton of ammo is just barely north of 300 BV.  ;)

I honestly considered that, but decided the streak launcher and LBX would consistently hit harder, and the LBX would have additional utility against land air mechs that would make that configuration a superior choice over a PPC.

Besides, attaching numerical values derived from complex formula to battlefield weapons is scientist caste nonsense. We warriors have no need for lower caste calculation!

I get that the Star Colonel wants to be personally involved.  Any reason he can't suit up in a smaller ride just for this one Trial so that a more "sensible" bid can be made?

Because he earned this Gargoyle, dagnabit!

Also you'd probably bid down to like a Mad Dog who didn't use his pulse lasers and two elementals. :P

(cartoon reference)

[Scotty]

I honestly considered that, but decided the streak launcher and LBX would consistently hit harder, and the LBX would have additional utility against land air mechs that would make that configuration a superior choice over a PPC.

A skilled warrior chooses his weapons for the task at hand! :P

I'd rather bid "down" to a mid-level Medium against the arranged group.  Same principle, still a "lower" bid.

But at that point I'm quibbling, which doesn't seem to be the point.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah . . . honestly he should be able to walk up any mechwarrior in his cluster, tap them on the shoulder and say, 'Dude, I am taking your ride.'

If the mechwarrior in question does not respond with 'AFF!' quickly enough the Star Colonel would pound him flat.

One of the other things missing in that case is knowing the equipment level of the unit- b/c if he honestly wants to come out covered in glory he is going to go looking for a SLDF leftover medium.  Ideally something fast so . . . royal Phoenix Hawk, Shadow Hawk or a Starslayer.

[Charistoph]

Equip the Gargoyle with an LB 5-X and 5 tons of ammo in the torso.  Equip two battlefists, and let the rest of the weight be empty.

Let the dezgra know they are an offense.

[massey]

Because he earned this Gargoyle, dagnabit!

Then he loses the bid.  He loses to someone willing to go down to a smaller mech. That’s how bidding works.

[Liam's Ghost]

Then he loses the bid.  He loses to someone willing to go down to a smaller mech. That’s how bidding works.

He's the commanding officer, the bid only happens as his prerogative, and he's exercising his authority.

He is, however, willing to answer a challenge. Only one though. His subordinates will have to bid among themselves for the right to face him.

(Gargoyle A, commander's skill is 0/1. The cluster has access to every type of front or second line clan mech built before 2980, as well as elementals, and has two additional warriors of 1/2 skill, ten of 2/3 skill, and the rest are standard 3/4 skill.).

[Colt Ward]

0/1?  Better than Justin, Kai, Phelan, Natasha, etc?

[Liam's Ghost]

0/1?  Better than Justin, Kai, Phelan, Natasha, etc?

But comparable to Star Captain Lefar of the Falcon Guards (source: Battle of Twycross scenario pack).

If we really want to bicker over every single thing, I'd point out that there's more to being a legendary warrior than just shooting or piloting good. Justin, Kai, Phelan, and Natasha were also exceptional at how they used those skills (to the extent the author was able to portray that).

So anybody want to bid for a refusal or not? By a unique turn of events I'm in considerable pain, which means resolving this will be held off for another weak.

[Colt Ward]

Its your game, its probably why they quit giving out skills for book characters to keep them from from being unbalanced.

[Liam's Ghost]

Its your game, its probably why they quit giving out skills for book characters to keep them from from being unbalanced.

Yes, by all means, let's argue over this some more.

[Colt Ward]

Sorry, I was not trying to argue- was meant to step back from that point.

Anyway, I think the ERPPC is the bid.

[Liam's Ghost]

Sorry, I was not trying to argue- was meant to step back from that point.

Anyway, I think the ERPPC is the bid.

I opened a second option to bid for a trial of refusal against the commander for his heavy handed behavior. Or at least that was my intention.

[Scotty]

I believe it'd be an informal Trial of Grievance, no?  Not that there's a significant enough difference to change the trial itself.

And also keeping in mind that the results of said trial, at least in the traditionally "letter not intent" Clan rules interpretation fashion, would merely replace the "must be part of the bid" part of the conditions, it wouldn't actually be necessarily to use that exact configuration to conduct the Trial itself.

In light of that, I would bid a Stormcrow B against the full capabilities of a Gargoyle in single combat.

[Liam's Ghost]

I believe it'd be an informal Trial of Grievance, no?  Not that there's a significant enough difference to change the trial itself.

And also keeping in mind that the results of said trial, at least in the traditionally "letter not intent" Clan rules interpretation fashion, would merely replace the "must be part of the bid" part of the conditions, it wouldn't actually be necessarily to use that exact configuration to conduct the Trial itself.

In light of that, I would bid a Stormcrow B against the full capabilities of a Gargoyle in single combat.

Pretty much. Defeating the Star Colonel will re-open the bidding without his original stipulation.

(I honestly wish I'd thought of this in the first place. I mean, I intentionally wrote it as the Star Colonel abusing his position for his own gain, but I only thought of the trial of refusal/grievance angle today)

[Liam's Ghost]

Also, all of this bidding (and the duel that may or may not reset the bidding) is taking place across the field from the opposition, who is watching, deeply confused.

(backstory: The challenge was made and accepted between two unarmed commanders on neutral-ish ground, but the exact terms were left until each side met on the field. The defenders brought the previously defined four mechs with them and made it their bid to defend, the Ice Hellions are now sorting out who gets to attack).

[Scotty]

Also, all of this bidding (and the duel that may or may not reset the bidding) is taking place across the field from the opposition, who is watching, deeply confused.

(backstory: The challenge was made and accepted between two unarmed commanders on neutral-ish ground, but the exact terms were left until each side met on the field. The defenders brought the previously defined four mechs with them and made it their bid to defend, the Ice Hellions are now sorting out who gets to attack).

This changes things significantly.  Without any time whatsoever to repair or rearm the entire calculus changes, in such a fashion that I don't think it'd be possible for any such Grievance/Refusal victor to prevail.  Regardless of machine bid.

[Liam's Ghost]

This changes things significantly.  Without any time whatsoever to repair or rearm the entire calculus changes, in such a fashion that I don't think it'd be possible for any such Grievance/Refusal victor to prevail.  Regardless of machine bid.

If the refusal wins, the rest of the cluster is still available for the new bidding.

If the trial fails, however, the commander will proceed with his mech as is, regardless of consequences. To bow out that point would be a greater shame than losing.

[Liam's Ghost]

Also, the backstory for how we ended up at this particular point is in itself pretty complicated.

Suffice it to say, due to a Social Admiral's false bravado, a lack of understanding of either side's protocols or combat practices, and one teensy ambush, the militia won't assemble its full force in one spot for fear that the WarShip in orbit will shell them into oblivion. The Star Colonel offered to remove his warship from orbit for the trial, but the Militia's not willing to take that chance, which is why they sent such a small force, and why they didn't hand out info on what they would be using in advance.

The Star Colonel, also fearing a trap, brought most of his cluster, but true to his word, ordered the warship back to the jump point.

And here we are.

[Scotty]

If the refusal wins, the rest of the cluster is still available for the new bidding.

If the trial fails, however, the commander will proceed with his mech as is, regardless of consequences. To bow out that point would be a greater shame than losing.

I suppose there is a difference in this case between a Trial of Grievance and a Trial of Refusal, then.  I think a Trial of Refusal would be to repudiate the Star Colonel's restriction that there be a particular 'Mech that must be included in the first place.  A Trial of Grievance would be to take his place as the particular 'Mech that must be included, taken as a personal slight.

...or have we perhaps reached a point where the intricacies of the published Clan honor system start to break down? ;)

EDIT: Given the difference between the two options as outlined here (which could be wrong; you're the "GM", and could say otherwise), I think the average Clan Ristar would pick the Grievance and try to take the Star Colonel's place, while the smart choice (and the one that comes with correspondingly less individual glory) is to declare Refusal and let someone else take the actual fight against the IS.

[Liam's Ghost]

...or have we perhaps reached a point where the intricacies of the published Clan honor system start to break down? ;)

I'd argue it was broken down from the beginning.  :)

But in this case, since the commander has the right to refuse any challenge, he will state that he will only accept a trial of refusal to remove his original stipulation and allow the bidding for the battle to be redone from the beginning.

[Scotty]

I'd argue it was broken down from the beginning.  :)

But in this case, since the commander has the right to refuse any challenge, he will state that he will only accept a trial of refusal to remove his original stipulation and allow the bidding for the battle to be redone from the beginning.

Fair enough.  In that case, I think my original Refusal-bid would end up being what I started at.  A Clan veteran in a Stormcrow B.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

...or have we perhaps reached a point where the intricacies of the published Clan honor system start to break down? ;)

I think so.  And in that vein of hypothesizing about how Clan Honor works at the lower levels of granularity:

I think most people would agree the Clan version of "Might Makes Right" doesn't necessarily mean that you can lay down challenges of refusal/grievance while in combat.  If a Star Colonel orders you say hold the flank where your opportunities to pad your codex will be nonexistant, you don't get to challenge him right there in the middle of the battle.  You have to wait to lay down your challenge for after the battle is decided, wouldn't everyone agree?

I'd say "the battle" extends throughout a campaign.  Trying to conquer a planet more or less conventionally means "the battle" is going 24/7 until it's decided, even if most of that time noone is shooting.  If the campaign has thus far been fought against guerillas/partisans, and only just now the chance for a clean Trial has come, then I'd envision that it'd be normal/expected that the Star Colonel entertain bids from his sub-commanders for the honor of fighting said Trial. 

Now that being said, it's good to be the King and a Star Colonel may just not do so and insist he's leading the charge and he's gonna do it in his choice ride.  I'm presuming that the elicited bids are therefore not in any way in-character, but meta bids from us the fans on what we think is the minimum force the Star Colonel could bring to win the fight.  Since the battle is still "live", even the Clanners are considered to be expected to follow orders.  Trials of Refusal would come after the campaign is decided.  Of course if the Star Colonel begins to lose the Trial after having denied his officers any chance to bid, he'll surely fanatically fight to the death.  Dying like a true warrior in the cockpit will at least take some of the edge off of the permanent record of his mismanaging/miscalculating the Trial and costing the Clan victory.

[Liam's Ghost]

Let's go with this specific narrative:

The Star Colonel opens the trial for bidding. Some bids are issued until he himself bids down to just his Gargoyle, using a single PPC. Then he declares bidding closed on the grounds that any lower bid would risk losing the battle and weakening the clan.

(bottom line, he was determined to be the one to do it, and once he reached the point where he could bid no lower, he asserted his authority on a pretext).

He was then challenged to a trial of refusal over closing the bidding. Sensing the discontent of his warriors, he accepted, but only on the condition that those who object to his decision bid among themselves for the right to fight the trial (he figures this will result in a weak enough opponent that he could hopefully beat them and still have enough left to fight the Inner Sphere).

[Scotty]

In that specific narrative, then, it stands to reason that he'd have the full armament of his Gargoyle available to him during the pre-Trial Trial.  Since the armament of said Gargoyle is materially relevant to the bidding, what sort of configuration are we actually looking at?

(And of course, the first thing I do is make things more complex)

[massey]

But comparable to Star Captain Lefar of the Falcon Guards (source: Battle of Twycross scenario pack).

If we really want to bicker over every single thing, I'd point out that there's more to being a legendary warrior than just shooting or piloting good. Justin, Kai, Phelan, and Natasha were also exceptional at how they used those skills (to the extent the author was able to portray that).

So anybody want to bid for a refusal or not? By a unique turn of events I'm in considerable pain, which means resolving this will be held off for another weak.

I'm sorry, I just don't understand what in the hell this thread is supposed to be about.  Are you expecting someone to actually play out some battle against you?

[Liam's Ghost]

The original intent was to decide the opposition the players would face in my next game session with them.

It's been expanded to include an intermediate step where the commander fights one of his subordinates before engaging the player characters. This will likely be resolved by Monbvol and me via megamek sometime during the upcoming week (or failing that, maybe I'll have the bot fight itself?).

If the challenger beats the commander, I come back here and solicit new bidding without the original stipulation.

[monbvol]

To brook no further delay I Star Captain Corran Horn(2/3) bid a Stormcrow A, Veteran(2/3) Dragonfly A, and a Veteran(2/3) Dragonfly B to face Star Colonel Luke Cage and whatever is left shall immediately proceed to engage the dishonorable Inner Sphere surrats who dare hide behind artillery and pathetic vehicle forces rather than face us with their mechs on the field of honor.

[Scotty]

To brook no further delay I Star Captain Corran Horn(2/3) bid a Stormcrow A, Veteran(2/3) Dragonfly A, and a Veteran(2/3) Dragonfly B to face Star Colonel Luke Cage and whatever is left shall immediately proceed to engage the dishonorable Inner Sphere surrats who dare hide behind artillery and pathetic vehicle forces rather than face us with their mechs on the field of honor.

I daresay I've already beaten that bid, good sir, with a single Stormcrow B (the intent was for a 1/2 pilot but a 2/3 is certainly possible).

[monbvol]

Do you intend to face the Spheroids immediately after, no chance of reload and repair with that Stormcrow B?

[Scotty]

Do you intend to face the Spheroids immediately after, no chance of reload and repair with that Stormcrow B?

The trial circumstances Liam's Ghost indicated suggest that the bidding will commence anew after the Trial, from square one, except without the guaranteed inclusion of the Gargoyle.

So no, not really.  But a Clan Warrior seriously attempting to gain some glory and personal honor isn't going to do so by inviting others to what could be a battle of single-combat.

That said, the entire reasoning behind the Stormcrow B in the first place is that the odds of incapacitating the Gargoyle in the first ten or twenty seconds - and before my own 'Mech is crippled by return fire - is highest with the UAC/20 breaching a side torso and forcing a shut-down.

If the contest is over quickly, I would include myself in the bidding still.  If the contest drags on, I would be forced (albeit grudgingly) to conclude that defeat against the IS forces would be a greater stain than prevailing against the Star Colonel would be a boon, and recuse myself from participating in the bid.

Granted, all that assumes I'm performing as a rational actor.  Knowing the Clans, that's not at all a given.

[monbvol]

That is an incredible gamble.  Especially if the Star Colonel as the defender picks ground where he'll have ample opportunity to slap the Stormcrow B before it gets in range to use the UAC/20.

Which I would consider a distinct possibility with how invested the Star Colonel is in fighting the Spheroids.

[Scotty]

That is an incredible gamble.  Especially if the Star Colonel as the defender picks ground where he'll have ample opportunity to slap the Stormcrow B before it gets in range to use the UAC/20.

Which I would consider a distinct possibility with how invested the Star Colonel is in fighting the Spheroids.

There's no ground to pick.  Liam's Ghost provided that part of the trial: it's happening at the site of the battle and in front of some very confused IS garrison units.

EDIT: I may not actually be very good at playing BattleTech that isn't Alpha Strike, but all of my bidding was done with careful consideration.

[monbvol]

I see no stipulation it has to be the exact same ground.  Ground nearby would actually be preferable.  Less chance of inviting Spheroid intervention that way.

[Daryk]

Plus, the "site" of a battle involving LAMs is by definition quite a bit larger than any other battle site.

[Scotty]

The trial needs to be conducted quickly, lest the IS troops tire and leave.  It also needs to be very close by, or else I can (and absolutely will) accuse the Star Colonel of cowardice in the face of a 'Mech two classes his junior.

I don't think most Clan officers in the early 3000s are going to have the patience to let that stand unchallenged by combat, especially one who is already incensed.and frustrated.

EDIT: the narrative that sprang unbidden to my mind is of a young Ristar Star Commander or Star Captain, chafing under a Star Colonel who has failed for weeks to bring the Spheroid dogs to heel and thinks they could do it better.  Certainly that the challenge is motivated more than merely by tactical considerations.

[monbvol]

Well that raises a fair point.

A lot of this does depend on exactly when the Trial of Refusal actually takes place.

The Star Colonel met with the Spheroids on day 4 of the ground campaign, can't remember the exact hour.  The battle will be on day 5 of the ground campaign.

So there is a pretty decent window to choose where this Trial of Refusal should take place with the more limiting factor being exactly when the Star Colonel informed his troops that he decided to take things personally than when the fight against the Spheroids is to happen.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I think so.  And in that vein of hypothesizing about how Clan Honor works at the lower levels of granularity:

I think most people would agree the Clan version of "Might Makes Right" doesn't necessarily mean that you can lay down challenges of refusal/grievance while in combat.  If a Star Colonel orders you say hold the flank where your opportunities to pad your codex will be nonexistant, you don't get to challenge him right there in the middle of the battle.  You have to wait to lay down your challenge for after the battle is decided, wouldn't everyone agree?

No.  In most cases, personal trials can be suspended by the commanding officer during campaign.  Furthermore, a warrior without a Bloodname can't challenge a Bloodnamed warrior without the sponsorship of another Bloodnamed warrior.  There's no way that a trial would be conducted right in front of enemy forces, either.

Bidding is  also something that Clan commanders can and do choose to suspend based on specific circumstances.  If a Star Colonel wanted to pull rank and go out for a fight, there's nothing any of his subordinates could do until after the battle, and then they really wouldn't have much grounds to challenge him unless he lost.

[Scotty]

No.  In most cases, personal trials can be suspended by the commanding officer during campaign.  Furthermore, a warrior without a Bloodname can't challenge a Bloodnamed warrior without the sponsorship of another Bloodnamed warrior.  There's no way that a trial would be conducted right in front of enemy forces, either.

This is definitely not true.  It's not a formal Trial of Grievance in the first place; that requires the involvement of the Clan Grand Council.  Informal Trials of Grievance happen basically wherever.

[Liam's Ghost]

No.  In most cases, personal trials can be suspended by the commanding officer during campaign.  Furthermore, a warrior without a Bloodname can't challenge a Bloodnamed warrior without the sponsorship of another Bloodnamed warrior.  There's no way that a trial would be conducted right in front of enemy forces, either.

Bidding is  also something that Clan commanders can and do choose to suspend based on specific circumstances.  If a Star Colonel wanted to pull rank and go out for a fight, there's nothing any of his subordinates could do until after the battle, and then they really wouldn't have much grounds to challenge him unless he lost.

Star Captain Trent of clan smoke jaguar would debate some of that, having repeatedly challenged his bloodnamed commanding officer (Star Colonel Paul Moon), in one case immediately before an action was to begin, specifically to prevent that action from happening.

Star Colonel Moon was under no obligation to accept these challenges, however in the case I mention above, he did accept, and the trial between them commenced immediately. After defeating him, Star Colonel Moon ordered the action to proceed.

So there's that.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

As I recall, that was was before they'd actually gone out onto the battlefield.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

This is definitely not true.  It's not a formal Trial of Grievance in the first place; that requires the involvement of the Clan Grand Council.  Informal Trials of Grievance happen basically wherever.

Show me anywhere where it says that they actually will conduct a Trial of Grievances within weapons range of enemy forces.

[Scotty]

Show me anywhere where it says that they actually will conduct a Trial of Grievances within weapons range of enemy forces.

This is not how the burden of proof works.  You made a claim, you get to prove it.  Show me anywhere where it says as a rule that Trials cannot be conducted within sight or range of anything at all.

Since the Clans don't actually do things like declare war, especially in the Homeworlds where prior to the Invasion Zellbrigen is expected, I very much doubt that rule actually exists.

[Charistoph]

Sheesh, how the Smoke Kitties prefer to conduct their Trials mean nothing to the Hellions.  The Hellions have their own standards to look to for how it happens.

More to the point, a true Ristar would have challenged right there, unarmed.  It gets started quicker and you don't risk the machines. 

Or maybe that is too much Jade Falcon.  Admittedly, most of my knowledge of Clan Trials have to do with interactions with certain Prydeful Warriors and the Widow Killer.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

This is not how the burden of proof works.  You made a claim, you get to prove it.  Show me anywhere where it says as a rule that Trials cannot be conducted within sight or range of anything at all.

You claimed that they could happen "where ever," so that would actually put the burden of proof on you to demonstrate that they do conduct internal trials in such a way.

[Scotty]

You claimed that they could happen "where ever," so that would actually put the burden of proof on you to demonstrate that they do conduct internal trials in such a way.

My evidence is that there is no rule or tradition preventing that.  Mostly on account of the rules not exactly being written down in the first place (still counts).

Especially in the Clans, something being common sense doesn't make it true.

[Liam's Ghost]

Sheesh, how the Smoke Kitties prefer to conduct their Trials mean nothing to the Hellions.  The Hellions have their own standards to look to for how it happens.

Then by all means, tell me how the ice hellions do it.

More to the point, a true Ristar would have challenged right there, unarmed.  It gets started quicker and you don't risk the machines. 

A true ristar would know that he doesn't get to choose the form of combat when he makes the challenge.

You claimed that they could happen "where ever," so that would actually put the burden of proof on you to demonstrate that they do conduct internal trials in such a way.

You see, when I read this, I hear "I don't actually have proof of my claim, so I'm going to ask the other guy to prove me wrong."

[Liam's Ghost]

Eh, forget it, bid's closed.

Thanks all who participated.

Moderators, would it be possible to get a lock?

[Charistoph]

Then by all means, tell me how the ice hellions do it.

Wasn't saying I did, just pointed out that it could have been different.  It seemed rather different between the kitties and the turkeys, after all, and they're both rapid Crusaders.

A true ristar would know that he doesn't get to choose the form of combat when he makes the challenge.

He does if the location is already determined by the challengee.  It can be part of the bidding process, after all.  Of course, the Star Colonel usually hands the Ristar his head no matter the format, but that's beside the point.

[Liam's Ghost]

Wasn't saying I did, just pointed out that it could have been different.  It seemed rather different between the kitties and the turkeys, after all, and they're both rapid Crusaders.

He does if the location is already determined by the challengee.  It can be part of the bidding process, after all.  Of course, the Star Colonel usually hands the Ristar his head no matter the format, but that's beside the point.

So in other words, you have nothing to add?

[monbvol]

Personally I don't think the Star Colonel can force himself into the fight but honestly with the Ice Hellion's interpretation of zell his bid might actually be unbeatable without giving up all chances of victory and to be honest if he really does bid down to a Gargoyle A and only using one ER PPC the superior numbers and mobility of his opponents actually gives the Spheroids more of a chance than I think is expected.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Personally I don't think the Star Colonel can force himself into the fight but honestly with the Ice Hellion's interpretation of zell his bid might actually be unbeatable without giving up all chances of victory and to be honest if he really does bid down to a Gargoyle A and only using one ER PPC the superior numbers and mobility of his opponents actually gives the Spheroids more of a chance than I think is expected.

Heh, I made that bid assuming the Star Colonel's skills would be something on the order of 2/3.  At 0/1, I'd bet on that bid against 4 light/medium 3025tech mechs every day of the week.  And twice on Sundays.

[monbvol]

I may be over valuing the mobility advantage of the Phoenix Hawk LAMs but with only one gun even if it is in the arm the Spheroids should actually have little trouble using flanking tactics and getting into favorable positions for it.

[Colt Ward]

I think the best revelation of how the Ice Hellions conduct themselves in trials is from Icestorm and the FM blurb about how Taney was finally thrown out.  Conner Rood makes it sound like the ristar would call out the Star Colonel right there and get into a fist fight.  I think the Bloodnamed vs non-Bloodnamed also ties back to how Vlad won his way to being Khan of the Crusader Wolves- but again, that is not the Hellions.

[Scotty]

I may be over valuing the mobility advantage of the Phoenix Hawk LAMs but with only one gun even if it is in the arm the Spheroids should actually have little trouble using flanking tactics and getting into favorable positions for it.

You almost certainly are.  LAMs are not going to hit a damn thing in AirMech mode with a regular IS pilot (minimum +3 AMM, probably +4 if you're actually going for a flank), and if they're not in AirMech mode they are a significantly more fragile and actually slightly slower Phoenix Hawk.

[Daryk]

I don't think the Commando can take more than two shots, the others should need only a few each to kill, and with a 0 gunner, the ER PPC should be connecting every turn.

[Liam's Ghost]

Since I shut the whole thing down, I see no sin in saying that the commander's skills were chosen to make him almost comparable to the player characters he would be fighting.

[Daryk]

Oooh... Extreme Range Rules?  >:D

[Liam's Ghost]

We usually use a whole bunch of advanced rules, including extreme range and line of sight range rules.

[Daryk]

Well then... looks like it's a bad day to be a Star Colonel...  ::)

[monbvol]

You almost certainly are.  LAMs are not going to hit a damn thing in AirMech mode with a regular IS pilot (minimum +3 AMM, probably +4 if you're actually going for a flank), and if they're not in AirMech mode they are a significantly more fragile and actually slightly slower Phoenix Hawk.

The trouble is even if they can't hit they should still have little trouble using terrain to setup for good positions for when they do want to engage and force the Star Colonel to turn his back to an enemy, especially if he is using only one weapon.

Well then... looks like it's a bad day to be a Star Colonel...  ::)

I will admit there are certain things that make me think this will still be an interesting fight despite all the advantages the Spheroids do have.  Only the Griffin has enough durability to not have to worry too much about taking a hit or two and is also the only Spheroid with weapons able to use Line of Sight rules so the Star Colonel really should be able to cause some damage.

Yet 4v1 all absolutely unfair skill level opponents, yeah it should be mostly a question of how much damage before the Star Colonel does before going down.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Hey Liam's Ghost you willing to entertain bids from the peanut gallery based on knowledge that everyone involved is gonna be skill 0-1ish on gunnery?  I presume the orginal goal was to crowdsource an OPFOR for your players to face.  If you still want that I think we'd come up with better bids than those purposely made in an "in character"/blind to your PCs capabilities sort of way were.

[Liam's Ghost]

The matter is closed.