3145 Campaign Decision- cERPPC, ERPPC, HPPC or Heavy Large?

[Colt Ward]

Going into the 3130s (before the supply situation was stood on its head) or in the early 3140s where it has stabilized a bit (very little bit) Clan tech has spread around and you can always get some of the heavy hitting energy weapons from the Sea Foxes.  Heck, they are selling a mech armed with a Heavy Large Laser!  Please keep in mind this is all in a campaign setting . . .

With that in mind . . . does the IS ERPPC even have a place on your mechs?  The Clan version does more damage for a bit less weight and is no longer the mythical unicorn in the supply chain.  What about the Heavy PPC?  Same damage as the Clan ER, but has a lot more weight to it, shorter ranged and less favorable brackets.

But what about that Heavy Large Laser the Sea Foxes are selling?  Highest energy damage (without considering a capacitor) but also a higher heat ratio and the range brackets of the old standard Large Laser.

As far as costs-
IS ERPPC/300k
Clan ERPPC/300k
Heavy LL/250k
Heavy PPC/250k

Which seems a bit off for the Clan tech but does not take into account any availability modifiers.

So when it comes to refitting your mechs during a R&R phase . . . which weapon would you reach for?  Why?  Does the option of capacitors make any difference?  What about the Reflective or other armors?  Blue Shield?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Of the choices, the cERPPC is easily the best- it provides the range of the ISERPPC with the damage of the HPPC while being more heat efficient and accurate than the HLL (and not exploding like the iHLL).  Neither Reflective Armor nor Blue Shields are popular enough to be a significant factor in the decision.

[Maelwys]

Obviously all things considered, the Clan ERPPC is probably going to give you the most bang for your buck. If you can get enough of them, and they're costing the same as an IS ERPPC (something I have issue with, but CGL hasn't addressed it yet), and you're not going to get sunk into a company store like syndrome with them, then yeah, I'd go with the Clan ERPPC.

Assuming your techs can handle the Clantech as well.

[Khymerion]

Since there will never be a reliable cost adjustment for the cER-PPC (or anything clanner in general)...  buy every last one on the available market and then stab the merchant since you know he probably is holding out and has one or two more out back with repair parts.   I mean, why would you not if it is available?   It's a known product with a very well known and lethal level of damage, the range that set the bar for a generation, a heat output that is high but not crippling, and a pretty light weight and small size... all for the extra cost of a little over a medium laser in terms of c-bills compared to a HLL or HPPC.   Lets not forget 4 tons lighter and 2 crits smaller over the HPPC.

By 3145, finding a tech that can work on clan gear should not be an issue that it once was in 3055.

[GoldBishop]

With prices so close, Item Weight, Space, and existing heat efficiency should somehow factor into the purchase... as well as the size of the unit being refit and the

The cERPPC is by far the best all-around choice among all the available choices - best damage to heat ratio for the crit space and tonnage - buuuuuuuuuuuut...

Since most of my light and medium mechs tend to have LOTS of space but not much weight to slap something onto it that packs the punch of a PPC.  The clan Heavy Large Laser does this for me :)   

The cHLL deals double the damage of a standard Inner-Sphere LLas for 2 tons less weight and just 1 extra crit.  Of course, there's this pesky thing called Heat, so one must also be mindful of existing weapons and shoot sparingly (the +1 can make or break the deal as well) and making those overwhelmingly hot shots count.

OTOH, I've yet to field the HvyPPC, so purchasing one is conditional upon the availability of a Capacitor (if the information from Sarna is to be believed, the limitations of the device are only to Inner-Sphere models).  10 tons and 4 crits eats up a LOT of weight and space on some models, plus 1/1 for a cap... but with ammo supplies finite, the 20-pt damage might be worth looking into, especially regarding field longevity.  At 18 hexes for the HvyPPC, it has practically double the range of a standard AC20; allowing a skilled pilot to (probably) overheat and kill from far enough away to allow the cap to recharge AND cool off from the overwhelming heat spike.

<deposits $0.02>

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

A PPC Capacitor functions identically for both IS and Clan PPCs.

Also, the HLL is only one ton lighter than a standard IS Large Laser (4 tons instead of 5).

[Colt Ward]

Pretty sure he was comparing it to the cERPPC . . .

If you have not tried the HPPC, definitely give it a whirl on something like the Marauder 9M2 or the Warhammer 8K (I think that is the right one).

My thoughts were sort of along the line of yours, in that just like Clan fast lights, the Heavy Large would work well for the same type IS unit . . . except that it probably could not sport the same type of back ups.  Putting it on something like the Mongoose II (or lighter) could work pretty well and even let it get a bit more armor.  Typically those lights have more crit space and heat sinking options than larger mechs.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The cHLL deals double the damage of a standard Inner-Sphere LLas for 2 tons less weight and just 1 extra crit.

Looks a lot like a comparison to the IS Large Laser to me.  It only deals 1 point of damage more than a cERPPC.

[Scotty]

One more point of damage and two less tons.  The range loss is more significant than the damage loss.

[pensiveswetness]

another thing to consider for the cERPPC: when using Dial-Down-your-Heat rules (from TO), your heat and damage are equal regardless of the amount of damage you sacrifice. Even a 1 point-reduced IS ERPPC still generates 6 heat... in comparison.

[sillybrit]

Given my druthers, I'd prefer the cLPL, but with that not an option I'd take the cERPPC. Its superiority over both the IS PPCs is obvious, and while the HLL might do a little more damage, it also is much shorter ranged and suffers from an accuracy penalty; doing a fraction more damage doesn't help if you can't hit in the first place. The cERPPC also gives the option of using a capacitor.

[Hellraiser]

IIRC the Clan ERPPC costs that price to the Clans.

I seem to recall they used to go for 4-100x as much on the black market, and that was assuming you had techs trained to replace &/or repair it.  Which even in 3067 most units still didn't.

I did very little refitting of clan tech onto IS units.
Senior officers got some C-weapons, but most of it went into keeping the actual clan machines working.

Even in 3145 I'd imagine cost modifiers are still at LEAST 2x as much if not more.

Given the hard bargains they drive in the fiction,  I really doubt they are selling clan spec mechs a HMPro/TW list prices to IS powers.  I'm betting they charge an Arm & a Leg in raw resources for them.


I'd probably go for them in the following order....... ERPPC, c-ERPPC, HPPC, HLL

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Given that in 3145 the Foxes are selling mechs with XXL engines, the markups can't be that bad.

[GoldBishop]

A PPC Capacitor functions identically for both IS and Clan PPCs.

According to Sarna, (and TacOps p.336-337) it does not; capacitor is Inner-Sphere compatibility only.

Yet, if playing with a house-rule that allows it to be playing compatible with the clan-tech, it throws out the HvyPPC's bargaining chip of being I.S. tech.

...
Also, the HLL is only one ton lighter than a standard IS Large Laser (4 tons instead of 5).

[5 tons 2 crits] is correct - I made a mistake when I typed 6 (not sure if I should blame bad memory or a finger slip on that one).  My bad, sorry for the fuss.

Still, it's better damage-to-weight for those Light/Medium mechs still clutching their standard Large Lasers ;)


As for Range Loss... yeah, the HvyLL and +1 to hit doesn't give it much of an edge compared to the cERPPC, but a crack-shot pilot in a fast 'Mech may want that extra tonnage for armor or other equipment: ECM suite, BAP, or maybe a 1-ton Targeting Computer.  Options, options, options!

@Colt - thanks for the suggestion!  Gonna try the WHM-8K Saturday (I haven't built a c3 network since BV1)  If I think about it, I'll post an update/AfterActionReport

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

According to Sarna, (and TacOps p.336-337) it does not; capacitor is Inner-Sphere compatibility only.

Yet, if playing with a house-rule that allows it to be playing compatible with the clan-tech, it throws out the HvyPPC's bargaining chip of being I.S. tech.

Sarna is out of date.  In the tech upgrade section of TRO 3145, the PPC Capacitor was made available for the Clans.  No house rules necessary.

[GoldBishop]

@Ogre - Ok, found it... though it wasn't any 1 (of 8 ) TROs I own, but rather in Record Sheets 3145 - New Tech Upgrades  p.11

...With an introductory for Clan at 3101, the significance of the HvyPPC depends heavily on what year Colt has planned for his campaign as well as the availability of the Clan-capacitor...

[Assuming perfect market/availability], since a cERPPC w/ Capacitor is now dealing twice as much damage for twice as much heat at the same 7 tons 3 crits as the standard InnerSphere PPC... it certainly becomes the favorite among the choice of weapon systems given by Colt

[Colt Ward]

Its hypothetical, I was wondering what general consensus would be- clearly it is the cERPPC . . .

 . . . but with everyone saying that, what would the choice be if that were off the table?

[Maelwys]

I'd probably go with the Clan ER Large laser to be honest. You out range pretty much everything, its small enough that its going to fit in just about everywhere, and its going to fit in well with regards to heat and damage with whatever you're replacing. Okay, so its not on the list, but I'd probably go for that. :)

The HLL might be an obvious choice, but the to-hit modifier and its range brackets don't make it an all around general purpose weapon IMO.

The HPPC, if you're forgive me, is a little too heavy to cram into a design easily. You're really going to have to work to fit them in where they're not designed to be, and you're going to have to give up alot to put them there. And if you're dealing with the Sea Foxes, why not go for Clantech?

The IS ERPPC is a solid general purpose weapon. Sure, its high heat, and the damage is the same as the standard PPC, but if you don't have the Clan version, its a good design, and the range on it is the same as the Clan version, so atleast you can shoot back. Its also produced in bulk and alot of designs already have them, so you'll have less trouble cramming it in. But again, if you're dealing with the Foxes, why go for the IS tech?

[A. Lurker]

I'd go first of all with what can be manufactured locally. Gear that I need to have handed down to me via some extended multi-jump interstellar logistics chain isn't something I'd especially like to rely on even if it nominally is on the open market.

So who am I and where am I mainly operating? A firm building 'Mechs for the defense of some local backwater cluster may well still make a killing putting standard PPCs on their designs because those are what they can build and what their customers know how to maintain and cope with the familiar heat load of. A bunch of down-on-their-luck mercs will use whatever they can get their hands on for however long it lasts. And an elite outfit that routinely gets the latest and the best may by 3145 even have kind of forgotten what "lesser" tech once looked like.

"Roleplaying" considerations like that really are going to inform my precise answer in a given situation; I'd have trouble picking just any one favorite based purely on the weapon's stats.

[solmanian]

I thought ER-pulse lasers were the "God weapon" of the clans... Especially if accuracy is your thing. Of course using regular pulse lasers with a TC for a -3 bonus, is a kind of trolling  >:D

[A. Lurker]

I thought ER-pulse lasers were the "God weapon" of the clans... Especially if accuracy is your thing. Of course using regular pulse lasers with a TC for a -3 bonus, is a kind of trolling  >:D

Nah. ER pulses only get -1 to hit rather than -2 like standard pulse lasers, run hotter, and still don't quite match the plain ER lasers' range bands. "God weapon"? Hardly. If anything, they're a tad nerfed. ^-^

[Col Toda]

The answer is simple . How good are your techs ? How.big is your budget ? What theater you are operating in? Mix tech before it becomes Advanced had a + 5 difficulty to maintain and install . The Dark Age it is still at least +2 . If your techs are not good enough for all purposes thenit is pointless to buy them. To buy them you have to pay between 2X - 2.8 X for it and if you use capacitors with your PPCs you will lose PPCs regularly . Solaris VII the SNPPC had greater utility in many ways .

[pensiveswetness]

The answer is simple . How good are your techs ? How.big is your budget ? What theater you are operating in? Mix tech before it becomes Advanced had a + 5 difficulty to maintain and install . The Dark Age it is still at least +2 . If your techs are not good enough for all purposes thenit is pointless to buy them. To buy them you have to pay between 2X - 2.8 X for it and if you use capacitors with your PPCs you will lose PPCs regularly . Solaris VII the SNPPC had greater utility in many ways .

Your assuming a single day for repairs? You can still reduce the required target number to 3 (on 3d6, lowest pair) if you spend either extra time or add personel to the job. Obviously it takes even longer if you have Green personel or that pesky IS/Clan modifier to your original target number...

[Col Toda]

Depending on theater you are lucky to have a day for repairs . If your enemy needs less than a day you will find your LZ under attack. Anything to reduce that time gives you the initiative .

[Orin J.]

Given that in 3145 the Foxes are selling mechs with XXL engines, the markups can't be that bad.

or their salesmen are that good.  [legal]

[Kathil Uhlans]

The answer is simple . How good are your techs ? How.big is your budget ? What theater you are operating in? Mix tech before it becomes Advanced had a + 5 difficulty to maintain and install . The Dark Age it is still at least +2 . If your techs are not good enough for all purposes thenit is pointless to buy them. To buy them you have to pay between 2X - 2.8 X for it and if you use capacitors with your PPCs you will lose PPCs regularly . Solaris VII the SNPPC had greater utility in many ways .

Seconding this.  Heavily upgraded Great House commands are still fielding probably two-thirds Inner Sphere tech, and Intro-level material still hasn't disappeared from even fairly well-off  House regiments.  IndustrialMech MODs were so common after the Blackout that there were ICE battlemechs designed and commissioned only a decade ago!  Advanced technical skills are in high demand but short supply, and if you've got good enough mechanics they're probably worth more than the 'Mechs they're servicing.

If you can get it installed, that's all well and good, and if there's no combat you can probably keep it maintained, but if it breaks you've got a serious problem.  Unless you have another copy in storage (and every copy in storage is more money you spent that isn't increasing your immediate firepower) you then have to strip it and replace it with a different weapon, requiring significantly more time from your techs than replacing the original IS-tech would.

That said, it gives you great punch while it works, and more importantly a great story if it doesn't, so go for it!


On a side note, do units designed as Mixed-tech from the start still suffer that penalty Col Toda?  I know there are some Rasalhague Dominion designs conceived from the skeleton up as combinations.

[Colt Ward]

Problem with that is, its not the tech level that is the problem.  Its getting it . . . you had Clan mechs fighting along side Inner Sphere built armor and impressed IndiMechs that were given add on weapons.  To be honest I am not really sure you are getting the impression that level of gear is rare, just about every House has been building it on their own and for a while too.  3145 is not 3050, its not magic any more.

None of the merc commanders we are introduced to in 3145 freak out about ditching salvaged Clan gear to get what they can buy.  They do not really treat it as very special, the only occasional comments are about how rare something is outside of X- one command got a Predator and Orion IIC as part of the Steel Wolves breaking up.  Comments?  Rare outside the Homeworlds for the first and how did that get outside the Warden/Crusader Wolves for the second.

[A. Lurker]

Problem with that is, its not the tech level that is the problem.  Its getting it . . . you had Clan mechs fighting along side Inner Sphere built armor and impressed IndiMechs that were given add on weapons.  To be honest I am not really sure you are getting the impression that level of gear is rare, just about every House has been building it on their own and for a while too.  3145 is not 3050, its not magic any more.

None of the merc commanders we are introduced to in 3145 freak out about ditching salvaged Clan gear to get what they can buy.  They do not really treat it as very special, the only occasional comments are about how rare something is outside of X- one command got a Predator and Orion IIC as part of the Steel Wolves breaking up.  Comments?  Rare outside the Homeworlds for the first and how did that get outside the Warden/Crusader Wolves for the second.

Yeah, part of it is that as the fictional timeline of the universe advances, "hardcoded" true-for-all-time tech bases and levels, C-bill costs, and so on make less and less sense. If a suitably prestigious Inner Sphere manufacturer in the 32nd century can build, say, ER large lasers that are for all intents and purposes identical to what we've first seen the Clans field during the invasion era...is that even "Clantech" at all anymore? Or is it just another flavor element like knowing the Federated Suns came up with rotary autocannons first without that magically making them forever "Fedtech, other factions no touchee"?

[Kathil Uhlans]

Problem with that is, its not the tech level that is the problem.  Its getting it . . . you had Clan mechs fighting along side Inner Sphere built armor and impressed IndiMechs that were given add on weapons.  To be honest I am not really sure you are getting the impression that level of gear is rare, just about every House has been building it on their own and for a while too.  3145 is not 3050, its not magic any more.

Have the penalties for Inner Sphere players acquiring and maintaining Clantech dropped that much?  I know the old Mercenaries books had tables and such up through the early Jihad, what new releases have that for 3145?

I went back and didn't find any pure Intro-tech left on the Successor State RATs in FM: 3145.  But even though they can both produce and maintain Clantech-quality equipment and perhaps a handful of 'Mechs, these still represent a small proportion of all but their most advanced fighting units.  Stone's Brigade gets 90-plus percent of (older) Clan designs because they break the RAT, the Hastati Sentinels and Wolf's Dragoons are generating around 50%; but even the premier regiments of other nations don't get more than a quarter at best.  That's still far higher than what anyone but Stone's Brigade and the Wolf's Dragoons got in any previous era as well, and it's not that they don't want it.  It may not be magic, but it's not mundane yet either.

Anyway, if you've got the technical support and the C-Bills and don't have a specific mission profile, the cERPPC is your go-to for sure.  If your support is iffy, than stick to IS products.  Capacitors depend on your fighting style and mission profile; I might go for a HPPC with one on specific ambush 'mechs, but I'd leave it off of the ERPPC.  cHLL would only be for city-fighting specialists or if you've got a crack shot with a targeting computer.