Author Topic: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships  (Read 9244 times)

Archangel

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #30 on: 06 August 2012, 14:42:13 »

As I have previously stated whatever works for him and his friends works just fine.
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Nebfer

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #31 on: 06 August 2012, 15:20:38 »
Well to me it seems VTOLs are loaded in the same manner as fighters are, via cranes and or tow trucks, but the rules on page 90 say nothing on VTOLs being loaded into ASF bays.

As for the fluff well folding or removing rotors would be logical, but that would seem to be counted in the time it takes to load the unit into the bays via strat ops (~4 min per unit via strat ops).

Fireangel

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #32 on: 06 August 2012, 15:56:27 »
Real world vertical rotorcraft (i.e. "helicopters" or "BT VTOLs") can fold their rotor blades (sometimes other parts) for economy of space in shipboard hangars.

It even works with tilt-rotors.  8)

ShadowRaven

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #33 on: 06 August 2012, 19:20:53 »
There you have it, pictorial evidence of the primitive Karnov folding up for transport.
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MOrab46019

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #34 on: 06 August 2012, 23:39:33 »
If you are going to carry them as cargo. They would not be ready for use as soon as the drop sjip land. If you have it in a vehicle bay I would say it can be used sonner because it is a bay. Ammo,fuel,equipment should be in the bay. Unlike the cargo space with spare ammo,armor,foodstuff,and god knows whatelse is round you that has to be moved.

SCC

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #35 on: 07 August 2012, 01:22:49 »
The rules interestingly make no mention of how long it takes to unload a VTOL from it's bay

Archangel

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #36 on: 07 August 2012, 02:25:05 »
The rules interestingly make no mention of how long it takes to unload a VTOL from it's bay

They do.  TW, p91: "Instead, it takes three turns for cranes to unload the units from the carrying aerospace unit; during the End Phase of the third turn after the turn in which the units began to dismount, they are dismounted into an adjacent hex (the hex must be within two levels of the underlying level of the hex occupied by the aerospace unit), with a facing of their choosing. In the turn following, such units may move and fi re normally."
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Fireangel

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #37 on: 07 August 2012, 07:38:24 »
If you are going to carry them as cargo. They would not be ready for use as soon as the drop sjip land. If you have it in a vehicle bay I would say it can be used sonner because it is a bay. Ammo,fuel,equipment should be in the bay. Unlike the cargo space with spare ammo,armor,foodstuff,and god knows whatelse is round you that has to be moved.

Not really an issue: VTOLs simply cannot be (well, they can... but they shouldn't...) be unloaded and prepped in the heat of battle.

Don't forget that vehicles can be moved from general cargo to a bay, so if it is a conceptual issue, the VTOL can be moved from its cargo berth to a vehicle bay and crane-unloaded from there.

StoneRhino

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #38 on: 07 August 2012, 08:01:43 »
Lets take a different approach to this problem. An aerospace fighter bay is something that is going to allow the fighter to fly off at various points that the dropship is on the move. A fighter is an object that takes up space as well. A fighter that is not going to be used until the dropship has landed does not need to go into the ASF bay since it is not going to try and defend, so think of it being moved in a strictly cargo hauling dropship moving cargo from world to world and unloading the fighter.

Think of what kind of set up that ASF bay is going to require to launch the fighter while the dropship is on the move. Probably something in some way akin to what you might see in starwars star destroyer, or that of battlestar galactica.

Depending upon the vtol and how it operates it might very well be possible to use it within an ASF bay while in atmosphere. Something that is similar to the karnov, a vtol with wings that uses rotar fans instead of a traditional helicopter style craft would probably work as it would be essentially fired out of the dropship and it's wings would allow it the lift needed to give the fans enough time to kick in, assuming the atmosphere at the point of the launch is heavy enough, I would assume. I would suggest that you probably could use the ASF bay as such.

When it comes to simply storing a vtol in a dropship, I would believe that it would easily fit into a vehicle's slot without a problem. This is likely true for standard vtols such as the warrior, pinto, and so on that are helicopter designs where their rotor blades can be strapped down. The karnov on the other hand could pose a problem depending upon the wings length, even if they can be folded upwards.

I would assume that the vehicle bays are semi modular so that they can accomodate vehicles of different sizes, but even if not I cannot imagine that most vtol's would be dramatically taller then a 100 ton tank.

As for simply stuffing a vtol into the cargo hold of a dropship, that has to be a given since there are likely bigger objects that need to be moved. Dropships are massive, they clearly dwarf mechs, so why shouldn't something the size of a vtol not be able to be loaded?

The question you need to ask is what kind of a priority the vtols will be once your ship has hit the ground. You answered that by saying you want them up and running for recon. If that is the case just how fast do you want them scouting things out? If you want them out there immediately then you would want them in an area where you know that vehicles are being prepped for deployment once the ship has landed, not where the big and bulky cargo is going to be. How you would transport the vtols may even differ. You might want to find a cargo container for the vtol since you don't want it to try and stress it when moving it along, which probably involves the use of a crane and other heavy machinery. Also, how much of a problem would it be to sort through it and other cargo, get it fueled and possibly armed and in a position where the crew is able to hurry the heck up and get out there.

I would say that if you want to use them when you land, you need them in a vehicle bay so that all preparations can be done before hitting the planet and so that the crew can easily get to it. Now if you are transporting vtols from planet to planet just as cargo to be handed off to someone else to use, then crate that sucker up and stuff it in the cargohold.

Dave Talley

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #39 on: 09 August 2012, 09:28:14 »
yeah a year or so back I did a Seeker conversion that took Vtols into account

I paid the tonnage for 2 ASF launch units and 6 Vtols as two bays (ie one launcher per 3 bays)
basically if you see the Union/Overlord the ASF  bays are up towards the top of the fuselage, I just fluffed it as the doors opening outwards drawbridge style to become a helipad

I worked up that they could land one unit every 4th turn
1 land
2 stop engine/rotors
3-4 fold rotors while being towed in
5 land another

reverse for launching, so it would take minimum 15 turns to land or launch all  3 from that bay

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Cergorach

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #40 on: 09 August 2012, 10:05:56 »
If we would look at helicopters (also fall in the VTOL category), those can't be launched from generic Aerospace cubicles. Let's be honest, maybe an Elite pilot doesn't have a 100% failure rate to get his craft through the relatively tiny opening, but most helicopter pilots would cringe if they loop at the Aerospace hanger doors on a Union...

I would think that the VTOLs of the Harrier type would be able to launch from an Aerospace cubicle, just like fighters.

VTOLs in vehicle cubicles would need to be pushed/pulled/towed out before being deployed (folded wings/rotors/etc.).

If you want to combat deploy helicopters you would need to use a new type of vehicle cubicle at a new location (top of dropship)  that allows for enough room to takeoff and land. You don't do stupid stuff inside other vehicles, something like turning the turret of your tank inside the transport plane...

Also, weren't the Marines considering using the Aircraft Carriers, Aircraft Catapult for deployment? Sounds like a Marine thing to do ;-)

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #41 on: 09 August 2012, 18:45:48 »
So to summarize.

V-Tols are moved in V-Bays just like Tanks, but, take 3x as long to offload in combat ?


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ShadowRaven

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #42 on: 09 August 2012, 18:49:56 »
So to summarize.

V-Tols are moved in V-Bays just like Tanks, but, take 3x as long to offload in combat ?

exactly. Except it makes more sense to haul VTOL's as cargo and free up those vee bays for tanks and the like
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Hellraiser

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #43 on: 09 August 2012, 18:53:52 »
exactly. Except it makes more sense to haul VTOL's as cargo and free up those vee bays for tanks and the like

Yes but that isn't a rule or required, just useful when its a 5 ton Ferret.

I have no issues keeping my Karnovs loaded w/ BA/Infantry ready to deploy from Lt.Vee bays if needed.
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ShadowRaven

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #44 on: 09 August 2012, 20:18:55 »
nope, And by the rules, your very much welcome and able to do that. I, by choice, wouldn't.  I see it as more effective to unload them from cargo if not in combat, and if my dropship is in combat, well the Karnovs can stay put.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #45 on: 09 August 2012, 21:08:24 »
That's what the rules say, so yes. If you need a fluff explanation, ask yourself how else the VTOL would get into that bay -- it can't just roll or hover in through the door like other vees might, after all. (I'm no expert on the subject, but helicopters never did strike me as being that good at taxiing, and in fact in the game VTOLs can't move on the ground at all. If they're landed, their only movement option is up into the air again (TW p. 54).)
If we would look at helicopters (also fall in the VTOL category), those can't be launched from generic Aerospace cubicles. Let's be honest, maybe an Elite pilot doesn't have a 100% failure rate to get his craft through the relatively tiny opening, but most helicopter pilots would cringe if they loop at the Aerospace hanger doors on a Union...

I would think that the VTOLs of the Harrier type would be able to launch from an Aerospace cubicle, just like fighters.

I think you guys would be amazed to see some of the shit I saw in an army aviation unit.  Helicopters aren't allowed to simply lift straight up and go at the airfield, but have to rise to a hover maybe 4-5 feet up and taxi to the runway.  Now, flying out of a hangar would be trickier, and is not done as standard, but it's hardly impossible.  I've seen choppers parked in forest clearings so small the rotors were almost brushing foliage on multiple sides.  And this was a National Guard unit, not SOAR or something.  That said, I certainly wouldn't have VTOLs of any sort flying onto or off of DropShips as SOP, but it can be done (and safely) if there's a 'taxiway' wide enough for the rotors to spin with at least a couple feet of clearance on either side, and a 4-5 feet of clearance above and below a taxiing chopper.
« Last Edit: 09 August 2012, 21:17:18 by Arkansas Warrior »
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FedComGirl

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #46 on: 10 August 2012, 02:04:10 »
I suppose one could house rule that they can take off and land from grounded dropships but but keep the longer loading and unloading time as since they'd need to be so careful. I'd think that'd make them last on last off for safety.


One could also have VTOLs taxi by flying at half levels.
« Last Edit: 10 August 2012, 02:07:44 by FedComGirl »

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #47 on: 13 August 2012, 11:05:31 »
I'd think that'd make them last on last off for safety. 

I was thinking 1st on, last off,  you want them moving when EVERYTHING is out of the way.
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Dave Talley

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #48 on: 13 August 2012, 11:41:34 »
exactly. Except it makes more sense to haul VTOL's as cargo and free up those vee bays for tanks and the like


with the problem of stuff in cargo has to be stored as cargo, which would probably mean no fuel or munitions, no chance to test or repair in transit, its simply tied down in a cargo container, same as mechs carried as cargo, its simply cant roll right out, it takes time to prepare for deployment

bays are where you can prepare for use/repair/load up to hot deploy, cargo is cargo
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sillybrit

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #49 on: 15 August 2012, 18:48:31 »
Something else to bear in mind regarding the ongoing safety discussion: not all VTOLs have large helicopter-like rotor blades that can potentially hit obstructions, just look at the Cobra from TRO3075, Yasha from TRO3085, Aeron from TRO3085Supp and Cascatelle/Lama-Deux from TRO:VA that propel themselves using either ducted fans or vectored thrust.

Designs like those would be a lot more forgiving of attempts to fly them straight out of a bay.

Colt Ward

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #50 on: 15 August 2012, 18:55:44 »
Absolutely, I was wondering if someone would mention this . . . but the inevitable response would be that art is fluff and does not effect rules.  But I was wondering, is there a design quirk for something like this?  I had thought about it back under BMR rules as something making the rotors harder to hit/damage, but I am not sure such a quirk balances with the TW VTOL benefits.
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Fireangel

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #51 on: 15 August 2012, 19:41:05 »
Absolutely, I was wondering if someone would mention this . . . but the inevitable response would be that art is fluff and does not effect rules.  But I was wondering, is there a design quirk for something like this?  I had thought about it back under BMR rules as something making the rotors harder to hit/damage, but I am not sure such a quirk balances with the TW VTOL benefits.

What I highlighted.

Also remember that not even fighters use their thrust inside the dropship (arguably not even at the catapult; the energy generated by a fighter's thrust would be... bad... for the carrier.


That being said, one might envision a positive design quirk that might allow for vectored thrust VTOLs that can be hot-dropped from vehicle bays.

ShadowRaven

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #52 on: 15 August 2012, 22:29:06 »
stupid thought time. the Kanga proves you can mount jump jets on vees. if you where to mount jump jets on a VTOL could you hot drop it?
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #53 on: 16 August 2012, 01:03:52 »
No VTOLs, sadly.  However, hover, wheeled, and tracked can all have them as can WiGEs.  This leads to the utterly intentional hilarity of ideas like jump-capable Gurteltiers...

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Fireangel

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #54 on: 16 August 2012, 08:00:23 »
stupid thought time. the Kanga proves you can mount jump jets on vees. if you where to mount jump jets on a VTOL could you hot drop it?

No. and unfortunately you can't even mount them on VTOLs.

No VTOLs, sadly.  However, hover, wheeled, and tracked can all have them as can WiGEs.

WiGEs can be air-dropped without jump jets!  O0

Dave Talley

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #55 on: 16 August 2012, 11:24:01 »
so no JJs, how about pallet dropping with a mech rocket pack

pallet rolls out door, drops a couple turns, retro rockets fire,
pallet lands, helo engine starts and blades deploy
helo lifts

basically like a mech drop but of course needs to be low level

hmm or make a cargo carrying vehicle, basically a truck with JJs,
load the helo on it, drive it out the door,, it uses JJs on the way down to land, and helo deploys from there, truck then goes to dropship landing site to carry other cargo
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Fireangel

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #56 on: 16 August 2012, 11:48:26 »
so no JJs, how about pallet dropping with a mech rocket pack

pallet rolls out door, drops a couple turns, retro rockets fire,
pallet lands, helo engine starts and blades deploy
helo lifts

basically like a mech drop but of course needs to be low level

hmm or make a cargo carrying vehicle, basically a truck with JJs,
load the helo on it, drive it out the door,, it uses JJs on the way down to land, and helo deploys from there, truck then goes to dropship landing site to carry other cargo

pallet rolls out door
drops a couple turns
retro rockets fire
pallet lands
crew disembarks (assuming it did not jump separately)
crew releases the straps/clamps holding the VTOL do the pallet
all straps/clamps are cleared of the immediate area of the VTOL
rotors are deployed to flight mode (tail too, if necessary)
quick walkaround to make sure the VTOL was not damaged on landing
begin startup procedure
remove all pins securing weapons/missiles for the drop/ready weapons for firing (nobody in their right mind will drop a loaded cannon with a chambered round)
start engines

helo lifts


Better. ::)

Dave Talley

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #57 on: 16 August 2012, 12:36:10 »
you are assuming realism in a game of orbital dropping giant robots??

2 crew from the flying truck can do the disconnect and walkaround, pilots can do a system check without leaving seat
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Fireangel

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #58 on: 16 August 2012, 16:32:19 »
you are assuming realism in a game of orbital dropping giant robots??

Yes. To a point: I don't want a lightsaber to interfere with the anti-phaser force field as I use the transporter to generate a 16 HD expanded fireball using kryptonite as an alternative casting component.  ::)

I know it's a game of stompy robots, but it works within a well-defined framework that tries to keep a modicum of realism, particularly in matters of practical physics through game rules; simply put; getting a VTOL from a dropship to combat takes time.


Quote
2 crew from the flying truck can do the disconnect and walkaround, pilots can do a system check without leaving seat

Crew from the flying truck must still unload the VTOL from the flatbed using standard rules. Use the rules for startup under fire; still takes time.

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #59 on: 16 August 2012, 17:22:20 »
I was thinking a flatbed type with clamps holding the chopper, released by the truck driver/pilot, with a low cab so the helo can start right up
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“Toe jam in training”

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