Author Topic: Aviation Pictures Part Trois  (Read 194564 times)

Cannonshop

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #840 on: 21 April 2018, 03:36:26 »

The other aircraft that have tried to be THE combat aircraft have often done quite well, albeit after a period of adjustment which can last a long time - and don't forget that with the lack of overt struggle like either an active war or the Cold War things may well take longer - but the Tornado, the Typhoon and F-18 are all really quite decent aircraft these days. The Harrier did likewise (being British I have more of an interest in the F-35B than the other two models).


In terms of needing to rapidly upgrade in the event of an unexpected "hot war", the upgrades developed for things like the F-15 for export could probably be relatively rapidly rolled out while a lot of trainer aircraft can easily have a light bomber/COIN role - like the BAe Hawk.


I'll post with a load of photos in a separate post...

I'll argue your central point here, doc.

the F-18 was designed as a light interceptor for the U.S. Navy,  to give them an equivalent to the F-16 without forcing Admirals to pay for Air Force planes.  (Seriously, that's what got it the job), and was based on YF-17, which was head-to-head against F-16 in development for the light interceptor role.

Harrier was intended as a ground-attack and short range plane, performance in the Falklands had more to do with how bad the Argentine military was, than  how great the Hawker Harrier was. (thus, why RAF still ran F-4 phantoms until the Tornado, and Fleet Air Arm didn't give up theirs until they retired their remaining big flattop for a ski-jump 'baby carrier' in the eighties).  and Typhoon? was developed as a compromise with dwindling budgets and reducing foreign deployments-an interceptor to carry bombs and have parts commonality with the rest of the EU.

NONE of those planes were developed with the express intent of "Being all planes to all users" as F-35 (and F-111 before it) were.  Notably, th e best planes to DO that, have been planes NOT initially developed for it.   F-15, F-16, F-4, Tornado, etc, etc to F-5 and Mig-21, have all made bones in "mulitirole' but only after demonstrating airframes and base architecture that could DO THAT.

from a base of specific, core engineering.  planes sold to procurement agents as 'be all end-all' generally have service lives like F-111, that is, aside from the suckers who bought them on promises (or at steep discount) they're not particularly effective OR successful, because instead of having a base of something they do well that can be expanded, they have a menu of things they do poorly and a huge maintenance budget for doing so, often with more extended stays in the repair shop that would be reasonable for any single, semi-specialist, airframe with a similar role.  (F-111 again, it wasn't until the eighties, twenty years after procurement, that it found a role it could do well, and it took that long to get the basic airframe in condition to where flying it wasn't  hazardous to the crew in PEACETIME.  25% readiness figures.  that's 1 out of 4 airframes are airworthy in FRONT LINE UNITS.)

England got suckered, so did we, the 'vision' of 'perfect multirole' is like perpetual motion machines, nuclear fusion powerplants, or Bussard Ramjets-it only looks good in theoretical studies, by people who don't have to make it actually function (in this case, in ANY role.)

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DoctorMonkey

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #841 on: 21 April 2018, 03:38:55 »
weirdly, despite the A-10 being legendary for being designed to be able to fly with at least 1/2 a wing missing, I can't find any such photos and I hadn't quite realised that I don't think that sort of damage has ever been done to one although there are plenty of photos of damaged A-10s that made it home


on the other hand, I did find photos of damaged F-15 and F-14 aircraft - I don't know the origin/authenticity of the F-14 photo but have heard of the F-15 one for a while
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #842 on: 21 April 2018, 03:53:24 »
NONE of those planes were developed with the express intent of "Being all planes to all users" as F-35 (and F-111 before it) were.  Notably, th e best planes to DO that, have been planes NOT initially developed for it

I'll still maintain that the best planes which ended up doing everything were specifically developed for naval use - the F-4 and the F-8/A-7. The combination of overpower and structural strength needed for carrier ops allowed them to be modified to do just about anything.

I do have to give a nod to the F-15/F15E family, and the Su-27 family - but both were big planes.
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DoctorMonkey

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #843 on: 21 April 2018, 04:02:29 »
I'll argue your central point here, doc.

the F-18 was designed as a light interceptor for the U.S. Navy,  to give them an equivalent to the F-16 without forcing Admirals to pay for Air Force planes.  (Seriously, that's what got it the job), and was based on YF-17, which was head-to-head against F-16 in development for the light interceptor role.

Harrier was intended as a ground-attack and short range plane, performance in the Falklands had more to do with how bad the Argentine military was, than  how great the Hawker Harrier was. (thus, why RAF still ran F-4 phantoms until the Tornado, and Fleet Air Arm didn't give up theirs until they retired their remaining big flattop for a ski-jump 'baby carrier' in the eighties).  and Typhoon? was developed as a compromise with dwindling budgets and reducing foreign deployments-an interceptor to carry bombs and have parts commonality with the rest of the EU.

NONE of those planes were developed with the express intent of "Being all planes to all users" as F-35 (and F-111 before it) were.  Notably, th e best planes to DO that, have been planes NOT initially developed for it.   F-15, F-16, F-4, Tornado, etc, etc to F-5 and Mig-21, have all made bones in "mulitirole' but only after demonstrating airframes and base architecture that could DO THAT.

from a base of specific, core engineering.  planes sold to procurement agents as 'be all end-all' generally have service lives like F-111, that is, aside from the suckers who bought them on promises (or at steep discount) they're not particularly effective OR successful, because instead of having a base of something they do well that can be expanded, they have a menu of things they do poorly and a huge maintenance budget for doing so, often with more extended stays in the repair shop that would be reasonable for any single, semi-specialist, airframe with a similar role.  (F-111 again, it wasn't until the eighties, twenty years after procurement, that it found a role it could do well, and it took that long to get the basic airframe in condition to where flying it wasn't  hazardous to the crew in PEACETIME.  25% readiness figures.  that's 1 out of 4 airframes are airworthy in FRONT LINE UNITS.)

England got suckered, so did we, the 'vision' of 'perfect multirole' is like perpetual motion machines, nuclear fusion powerplants, or Bussard Ramjets-it only looks good in theoretical studies, by people who don't have to make it actually function (in this case, in ANY role.)




I'll still maintain that the best planes which ended up doing everything were specifically developed for naval use - the F-4 and the F-8/A-7. The combination of overpower and structural strength needed for carrier ops allowed them to be modified to do just about anything.

I do have to give a nod to the F-15/F15E family, and the Su-27 family - but both were big planes.



I wasn't going to cut-and-paste your responses because my response to it is not disagreeing with you - in fact, I think you are completely correct.


Speculating on from that, has there been a shift with more modern aircraft to design closer to the limits of capability of materials etc rather than building in a degree of safety margin to allow for imperfections in the design and materials?


I think this is part of the reason we see products from past eras working for decades while an iPhone lasts only a few years.


The other thing that is, I think, a large part of the problem with the F-35 is that, not unreasonably, there was a massive underestimation of the complexity of the computer programming to make the automatic adjustments to keep something so fundamentally bad at flying stay up. While such concepts have been around since at least the F-16, the F-35 adds more to the problem because for those sort of purposes there are three radically different aircraft and with the number of changes made from the prototypes they can't be used to base things off either.


Maybe BattleTech is right in it's vision of the future that actually there will be a bit of a slowdown in technology as we just become unable to get the software to work in anything like a timely fashion. Or maybe it'll be like the Terminator franchise once we get AIs to write the computer code and they then realise that their biggest problem are the meat-sacks.
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Daryk

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #844 on: 21 April 2018, 06:04:36 »
*snip*
Speculating on from that, has there been a shift with more modern aircraft to design closer to the limits of capability of materials etc rather than building in a degree of safety margin to allow for imperfections in the design and materials?
*snip*
I've read here and elsewhere that the "safety margin" is the main reason the B-52 is still around...

Feenix74

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #845 on: 21 April 2018, 06:46:17 »
Absolutely. In modern engineering practice, everything is designed to a service life and with modern computational modelling, us engineers are pretty good a designing things to meet their design service life.

"To the optimist the glass is half full. To the pessimist the glass is half empty. To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be."
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #846 on: 21 April 2018, 10:17:18 »
I've heard it put as "anyone can build a bridge that stands up.  It takes an engineer to build a bridge that barely stands up."
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Cannonshop

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #847 on: 21 April 2018, 13:43:41 »
I've heard it put as "anyone can build a bridge that stands up.  It takes an engineer to build a bridge that barely stands up."
LOL

we're dealing with 'advanced technology disease' at Boeing right now-they're toying with robots and automation.  the places where the robots and automation are allowed to work as designed, are progressing nicely, but we've got some management meatheads who think the robots (designed for fixed installations) should be shuffled like checkers every couple of days...with predictable results.  (they are, gradually, figuring out the limits on that stuff, but while they're wrapped in their illogical technoworship, it's amusing, and plenty of overtime for us 'meat sacks' who can think outside of a code string...)

but a lot of the problem from what I've observed, is guys with engineering degrees saying "Sure, you can make it do that!" without knowing what 'that' really is.

I've actually watched the young guys from the contractors get gray hair and age like presidents dealing with the shifting demands from the management.  poor kids, make more than me, but they're putting the hours in on nightmare mode.



we're still (amazingly) on schedule for test flights. Take that, 787!!!
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #848 on: 21 April 2018, 14:18:02 »
The BRONCO II, based on the South African AHRLAC (Advanced High-Performance Reconnaissance Light Aircraft) is going to be offered for the U.S. Air Force’s light attack aircraft experimental competition.

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Kidd

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #849 on: 21 April 2018, 14:24:22 »
@Feenix - to some defence ministries, the glass is fitted for but not with additional water

The BRONCO II, based on the South African AHRLAC (Advanced High-Performance Reconnaissance Light Aircraft) is going to be offered for the U.S. Air Force’s light attack aircraft experimental competition.
To join Textron Scorpion and Embraer Super Tucano? I thought it had already been shortlisted to these two.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #850 on: 21 April 2018, 14:49:29 »
you mean the AT-6 Wolverine, not the Textron Scorpion.. the Scorpion was already cut.

i suspect the AT-6 will probably get it in the end.. not only are there political aspects involved regarding the locations of the companies, but the airforce already uses T-6 Texan II's for flight training, so an armed version could tap into that pre-existing logistics set up, making it even cheaper to operate.

that is, assuming the whole program isn't axed to feed it's budgetary carcass to the F-35 program..

I am Belch II

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #851 on: 21 April 2018, 16:16:57 »
The 777x is just a MAX/NEO version of the mighty 777. It does have the folding wings....lets see if some one buys them and uses them. The 777-200 model had designs for folding wings so it could fit into spots that the DC-10 and L1011 used in airports like LaGuardia.
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #852 on: 21 April 2018, 16:54:57 »
i suspect the AT-6 will probably get it in the end.. not only are there political aspects involved regarding the locations of the companies, but the airforce already uses T-6 Texan II's for flight training, so an armed version could tap into that pre-existing logistics set up, making it even cheaper to operate.

I was of the same opinion, but the recent issues with hypoxia wth the trainer fleet that the powers that be can’t seem to keep from cropping back up have me wondering about that. Might not be enough to swing things, but when your instructors basically stage a walk-out over the number of hypoxia incidents, that might make you wonder about buying a bunch more of the same chassis for actual combat work.

Feenix74

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #853 on: 21 April 2018, 19:41:25 »

but a lot of the problem from what I've observed, is guys with engineering degrees saying "Sure, you can make it do that!" without knowing what 'that' really is.

What the engineers are saying is true. We can pretty much do anything, the real questions are how much time, money and resources do you have to make it happen?

Quote from: Cannonshop
I've actually watched the young guys from the contractors get gray hair and age like presidents dealing with the shifting demands from the management.  poor kids, make more than me, but they're putting the hours in on nightmare mode.

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Quote from: Cannonshop
we're still (amazingly) on schedule for test flights. Take that, 787!!!

That is an awesome picture and great news  :thumbsup: I must admit I am a big fan of evolutionary design development over revolutionary design development.
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elf25s

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #854 on: 23 April 2018, 21:38:34 »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHwGiWLkxaE
real or fake...i amleaning toward fake
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #855 on: 23 April 2018, 21:47:05 »
I'd say painfully fake.
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Fat Guy

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #856 on: 23 April 2018, 22:15:20 »
Painfully fake would be an improvement!
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Feenix74

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #857 on: 23 April 2018, 22:27:19 »
The engine intake design look like they are copied from a Global Hawk. The intake design would not be very "stealthy" with the rounded shape and a straight through to the turbine fanblades, even with the above wing location.

The rest of the aircraft takes "stealthy" design cues from the F-22 but appear to be missing some of the details that you would expect in the landing gear door covers.

The shading and reflections in the flying picture look CGI-ed.

So probably fake, possibly a design concept art for pitching at a trade conference/expo.
Incoming fire has the right of way.

The only thing more accurate than incoming enemy fire is incoming friendly fire.

Always remember that your weapon was built by the lowest bidder.


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elf25s

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #858 on: 23 April 2018, 23:09:15 »
even if the body looks like it could work? reminds me of that model kit that was going about in early 90s the 3 or 5 snap kits peices
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #859 on: 23 April 2018, 23:52:48 »
The engine intake design look like they are copied from a Global Hawk. The intake design would not be very "stealthy" with the rounded shape and a straight through to the turbine fanblades, even with the above wing location.

The rest of the aircraft takes "stealthy" design cues from the F-22 but appear to be missing some of the details that you would expect in the landing gear door covers.

The shading and reflections in the flying picture look CGI-ed.

So probably fake, possibly a design concept art for pitching at a trade conference/expo.
body is more like the YF-23.

and yes, it is just someone's 'fanart'
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ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #860 on: 24 April 2018, 00:02:40 »
At least a plausibly aerodynamic subsonic design.  There's certainly much stranger things that flew.





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ColBosch

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #861 on: 24 April 2018, 14:35:39 »
http://www.azfamily.com/story/38030707/military-aircraft-crashes-at-lake-havasu-city-airport-pilot-ok

Pictures in article. An F-16 crashed at Lake Havasu Municipal; the pilot made an emergency landing and the plane veered off the tarmac. He ejected safely but the aircraft was totaled. If the pilot had not ejected he would've been killed. The pictures show that the nose, through to the cockpit, was completely destroyed.
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #862 on: 24 April 2018, 14:44:08 »
Yikes... looks pretty bad, but I have to wonder if the nose snapped off after the ejection weakened the frame.

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #863 on: 24 April 2018, 14:54:20 »
Yikes... looks pretty bad, but I have to wonder if the nose snapped off after the ejection weakened the frame.

That's possible, but that plane took a serious beating. Note that it took damage literally over the entire airframe. Nothing looks right about that airplane anymore, from the nose (gone) to the exhaust pipe (trashed).
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Daryk

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #864 on: 24 April 2018, 14:57:00 »
There was a mention of a flame out... if it was unpowered, it's amazing it managed to stay upright...

ColBosch

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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #865 on: 24 April 2018, 15:22:17 »
There was a mention of a flame out... if it was unpowered, it's amazing it managed to stay upright...

Too bad Deathshadow isn't around anymore. He used to fly these birds, and I'm sure could offer insights we don't have.
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #866 on: 24 April 2018, 15:26:24 »
airplane no go vroom
soon no go zoom
soon go boom
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #867 on: 24 April 2018, 15:33:57 »
Too bad Deathshadow isn't around anymore. He used to fly these birds, and I'm sure could offer insights we don't have.
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #868 on: 24 April 2018, 15:36:35 »
I think he does.  His profile says he was last online a couple weeks ago and I'm sure I saw him post a month or two ago.
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Re: Aviation Pictures Part Trois
« Reply #869 on: 24 April 2018, 16:55:10 »
That'll be in the local news here in a couple hours, I'll see if they have any details as to what happened.  'Departed the prepared surface' implies a touchdown on the runway and then it just never slowed down and went off into the dirt and hard clay.  I'm guessing that based on the immediate area it ended up in, it doesn't look like it's in the middle of the airstrip as if it'd turned on landing and gone off the runway to the side; that looks like the open dirt outside.

Update: Not much besides some pictures from other angles.  The aircraft itself is definitely not anywhere near the runway, looks like it cleared the fences and is out in the dirt.  Right landing gear has clearly failed, it's tipped well over and that would account for the heavy damage to the engine if it was being dragged along.  Same with the nose; I imagine they both failed once it hit the dirt.  It's a rough bumpy rocky outer field, so I am gonna guess it suffered some kind of mechanical failure in the brakes, went off the end of the runway, and ripped her underside pretty bad.

I wouldn't count on the pilot flying anymore, ejection is extremely violent and does really bad things to the spine.  Poor guy.
« Last Edit: 24 April 2018, 18:07:54 by ANS Kamas P81 »
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