Author Topic: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.  (Read 6218 times)

marauder648

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(Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« on: 29 April 2015, 09:04:22 »
You'll note Mech's plural because the ones I'm talking about don't come in many variants or flavours and would be small articles on their own so here together are two Light Mech's for your reading enjoyment.

The Night Hawk and Talon.

Night Hawk.


The Night Hawk is a rare beasty at its time of introduction.  Most Mech's in the 20 - 35 tonne range are built as scouts and skirmishers, only the Panther and Wolfhound for the most part stepped outside of this with the Panther being a rather slow but well armed trooper and the Wolfhound being..well a wolfhound, a hunter and killer of lights and any unwary Medium that let it get close. 

Ordered by the SLDF back in 2565 the Night Hawk was designed from the start to be a hunter killer and raider that could find and run down the standard light mech's of the day, namely the Wasp and Stinger who were in use by EVERYONE.  The designers the rather awesomely named Mountain Wolf Battlemech's hit the ground running and went for an all energy armament, again not that common on light mechs of the time and even now.  Starting with a 35 tonne chassis they fitted a 210 rated XL engine for a maximum speed of 97kph (6/9/0 in game terms.)

Oddly enough no other weight saving materials were used and the Mech is built on a standard chassis and is protected by 7 tonnes of armour for nearly maxium protection. 

Speaking of which the Night Hawk is a tough cookie, of course there's the dangers of the XL engine but both arms can take an AC-10 hit before going internal, the legs an AC-10 and AC-5 whilst the side torso's can withstand an AC-10 blast and then a hit from a small laser.  The chest has formidable protection too, a pair of large laser hits will reduce its armour to a strip of teflon but it would still have something. 

Whilst the speed may be a touch unimpressive the small and light engine saved room for the Mech's weapons and the Mountain Wolf folks did not dissapoint.  Most light Mech's tend to go for a bevvy of smaller guns or a large missile launcher supported by smaller weapons, not so the Night Hawk.

Living in the center torso in a housing just under the engine is a standard large laser but this plays second fiddle to an ER Large Laser that lives in the Night Hawk's right arm, for supporting weapons a Medium Pulse Laser lives in the left arm and for additional cooling two extra double strength heatsinks are mounted.  For a 35 tonne machine this is a SERIOUS amount of firepower that was not really rivalled until the Clan's came along and you could possibly say that a machine like the Night Hawk served as the inspiriation for Clan machines like the Adder/Puma with its all energy armament and long range focus serving as a fine starting point.

Despite the energy loadout the Night Hawk is also a cool running machine, you're heat neutral if you stand still and alpha strike the lot and the two big lasers let you easily out range anything you are sent after and if you run into something big you can still sting whilst disengaging.

There's only one Variant of the Night Hawk and its more a field refit than a full on alteration. The heavy Medium Pulse laser is removed and the electronics suite is refitted to include an ECM suite and an Active Probe turning it into a heavy scout which still has a significant bite.

Talon

Entering service over a hundred years later than the Night Hawk with SLDF units getting their first new mech's in 2670 the Talon is another oddity for a light, especially for the time.  Its a fire support unit, designed and built to give long range heavy fire support to light Mech companies or acting as the 'gun' for a light mech group that has found and flushed out larger prey.

Another 35 tonne machine the Talon trades the Night Hawk's heavier punch for a larger engine,  in this case a 280 rated XL engine which could push the machine along at 129 kph, and like its older stablemate the Talon lacked jumpjets giving it a 8/12/0 movement profile in game terms.

Like the Night Hawk the Talon does not use any further weight saving materials but does have a thicker hide with 7.5 tonnes of armour giving it the most protection it can carry.

The arms can take an AC-10 and then SRM hit, as can the torso's whilst the legs can take a pair of large laser hits, and like the Night Hawk the chest can withstand a pair of large laser hits and still have a sliver of protection left that might withstand some harsh language.
To fufil its fire support mission the Talon's designers did not go for LRM's or a light autocannon but instead chose an ER PPC for long range, ammunition dependent firepower with a long range punch.  Supporting this big cannon is a pair of redoubtable Medium Lasers for close in work. 
An additional tonne of cooling systems rounds out the Talon making it cool running with barely a blip on the heat scale if you run and fired a full blast.  All the weapons are arm mounted for maximum firing arcs as well, an added bonus when you're running around at 129kph.

The SLDF found that paring the Talon with the Mongoose was a good thing, both mechs had the same speed and in the case of Royal Units, the same weapons range, with the Mongoose acting as a hound to flush out anything whilst the Talon's provided the punch or covering fire before they had to disengage but it wasn't until much later that variants of the Talon began to emerge.

5V - As simple as it comes really, ripping out the ER PPC and replacing it with a standard PPC to make the cool running mech run even cooler (and no doubt be cheaper to build and easier to repair)

5Z - Not so much as a refit as a complete rebuild that i'd say produced an entirely new mech the 5Z replaces its XL engine with a Light one, all be it one that can 'only' move it along at 119kph.  Extra weight saving is made with the skeleton being an Endo-Steel one and the armour being a Ferro-Fibrous compound.  The extra heatsink was also removed to save even more weight and the armament package completely reworked into a pair of ER Large Lasers, one in each arm.  A C3 Slave was also fitted in the head further emphasising its fire support role all be it at the cost of heat issues as you'll be left with 6 heat if you move and fire both lasers.  This machine is built to hang back, taking targetting data from a friend before letting rip.

6W - The Hollander's little cousin, the 6W is again an extensive rebuild.  It retains the original machines movement profile but saves weight with the use of an Endo-Steel skeleton and Heavy Ferro-Fibrous compounds being used to protect it.  Once again the weapons are removed and in their place the 6W now tots a Heavy PPC and that is all. This makes it a fearsome backstabber as not many mechs its size outside of Clan units mount so large a gun on so fast a chassis, turning the fire support Talon into a mid range brawler or backstabber.

Thoughts.
I like both these machines, they are simple to use even forgiving due to their pleasant heat curves and both pack a solid, reliable punch.  The Night Hawk is more a trooper and general purpose machine whilst the Talon is one of those raritys.  Of the Mech design triumvirate it has speed, firepower AND protection (well..for its size.)  Whilst a bit pricey in BV thanks to their XL engines there's really not much to criticise or point out.  They are very well designed mechs (but then again they are TRO-3058 Mechs and this should be expected, that book produced almost no donkeys).

 


As always, comments and criticism are most welcome!
« Last Edit: 29 April 2015, 09:16:49 by marauder648 »
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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #1 on: 29 April 2015, 12:30:04 »
Construction quirks fun fact: XL Engines are actually lower BV than standard engines, because they are obviously more vulnerable.  The proclivity of XL engine 'Mechs to run higher in BV than their SFE counterparts is entirely in the guns and armor.
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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #2 on: 29 April 2015, 15:53:45 »
I'm a big user of the Talon in all forms and have used them to good effect from the SL era to the modern times and Dark Ages.  Great ride.  Gives you so many tactical options due to speed and range of the ERPPC/HPPC.

Night Hawk is one I haven't used as much.  I think the lack of jump jets really hurt it; I wonder if weight saving materials would allow it gain six jets?

marauder648

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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #3 on: 29 April 2015, 16:06:00 »
Even if you could not give it a full 6 giving it some so it could do hops would be benificial, but I guess that it was built with raiding and deep penetration ops in mind, and i'm guessing you need fuel for jump jets (some kinda reaction mass) and they are probably a bit nasty on maintenance, things that are not desirable on a mech thats meant to be out in the field for a long time.
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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #4 on: 29 April 2015, 16:19:14 »
Even if you could not give it a full 6 giving it some so it could do hops would be benificial, but I guess that it was built with raiding and deep penetration ops in mind, and i'm guessing you need fuel for jump jets (some kinda reaction mass) and they are probably a bit nasty on maintenance, things that are not desirable on a mech thats meant to be out in the field for a long time.
Don't JJs need extra remass only for space-ops? I thought they used just air* usually, with some manufacturer's versions using other things but being rarer?

*Let's not talk about whether air is actually good reaction mass or not... other than that it probably works well with the magic fusion reactors BT mechs have.

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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #5 on: 29 April 2015, 18:07:26 »
The Talon 5W is still, to this day, one of the very few IS light 'Mechs that is still highly competitive on the modern (3145) battlefield. It really is a model of design efficiency.

The Night Hawk...well, I still use it, although mostly for fluff reasons. The e-warfare variant is a nice cheap way to get those particular electronics on the field.


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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #6 on: 29 April 2015, 18:40:58 »
I like running the Talon with some of the nastier newer mechs, like the Osiris.
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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #7 on: 29 April 2015, 22:35:28 »
I don't have much experience with the Night Hawk, but the Talon is an unholy nightmare when used in the right hands. The -5W has the speed and range to dictate the range of any engagement, dancing at its own maximum range and firing with TNs of 10-12, but being utterly unhittable in return. I've used a lance of Talons to bring down a lance of -732 Highlanders without a scratch. You just have to move them perfectly.
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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #8 on: 30 April 2015, 01:04:15 »
Both are great mechs... but by god the art is UGLY as **** >_<

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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #9 on: 30 April 2015, 01:11:21 »
The -5V came out first. The -5W was an upgrade after the development of the ER PPC.
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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #10 on: 30 April 2015, 04:40:03 »
I'm a fan of the Talon, the weapons load seemed to scream to me 'sniper' when I first saw it but like you say it's actually a really good backstabber, capable of getting in behind something bigger, Alpha Striking, and getting out.

And strangely the Night Hawk is something useful, more as a utility 'Mech, there when you need it with just enough firepower to make a difference, and strangely good at being a dualist as well. And I'll admit that when I first saw the standard laser mixed with the ER it made little or no sense to me, but these days I can understand how one is for reach and the other is for added punch.

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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #11 on: 30 April 2015, 07:29:33 »
I'm sort of surprised this isn't a triple header. The Falcon Hawk is the same weight (and TRO) as the Night Hawk, though its slightly slower, but where the real comparison comes in is that the Falcon Hawk's first variant, the 9K1A, packs both a large laser and an ER Large Laser.

Its one of the reasons (and not just the name) that I often get the two confused. :)

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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #12 on: 30 April 2015, 09:34:35 »
Hah well two reasons really.  1) I forgot about that mech existing and 2) I didn't want to be a bit too lary :P
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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #13 on: 30 April 2015, 12:47:45 »
Never have really played much with Night Hawks...but like Maelwys said, it looks pretty similar to the Falcon Hawk which unerringly dies within a turn or two every time I try to use it. Bleh.

The Talon, on the other hand, has definitely always proven to carry its weight. I rarely field it but often face it, and the newest -6W has proven to be the biggest pain yet in a long series of massive annoyances. It's also the fastest IS headcapper in the entire game (albeit a non-jumping one), which definitely makes it something special.
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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #14 on: 30 April 2015, 13:22:53 »
Mountain wolf battlemechs is mentioned in the back story of another mech, which came about much later in 3010.. the Merlin. And if you look at the artwork/appearance, it begins to seem the merlin is basically a modified nighthawk chassis. Which would honestly make a lot of sense.
« Last Edit: 30 April 2015, 21:58:34 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #15 on: 30 April 2015, 21:13:55 »
Honestly, I love both of them ---- with the Talon being a favored choice for high speed sniper and race in backstabber --- but I have had a LOT of success with the Night Hawk, too. I love assigning one to an Assault mech, and use zig zag movement to keep it with that assault mech, but with a higher TMM --- people will focus on the Assault, allowing the Night Hawk to give them an unpleasant surprise.

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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #16 on: 01 May 2015, 07:11:36 »
I would argue that the Talon is probably the single best optimised IS light in the game - to the point of being almost boring.  Personally I've not used one but I've played against them often enought and they've never failed to make an impact.  The Nighthawk is a much more interesting mech and works nicely as an alternative to the Wolfhound - I particularly like the EW variant.

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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #17 on: 01 May 2015, 10:23:08 »
One minor corection. The Night Hawk was introduced in 2656 not 2565. This makes these two mechs practically contemporaries. The Night Hawk couldn't have been build in 2565 as neither XL-engines nor ER lasers were around at this time.
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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #18 on: 01 May 2015, 10:47:18 »
I would argue that the Talon is probably the single best optimised IS light in the game - to the point of being almost boring.

It lacks jump jets.  While it works very well anywhere it can run around in the open, in any situation where its maneuverability is hampered it becomes far more vulnerable.
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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #19 on: 01 May 2015, 11:33:44 »
I would argue that the Talon is probably the single best optimised IS light in the game - to the point of being almost boring.

Definitely not the case. I've actually found that using it (and mechs like it) is one of the most mentally stimulating thing in Battletech, since you have to be so careful in plotting your movement and are often forced to decide between better TNs for yourself or harder ones for your opponent, and you really have to be careful because no matter how tough a light it may be, it's still a light.
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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #20 on: 01 May 2015, 11:38:49 »
Definitely not the case. I've actually found that using it (and mechs like it) is one of the most mentally stimulating thing in Battletech, since you have to be so careful in plotting your movement and are often forced to decide between better TNs for yourself or harder ones for your opponent, and you really have to be careful because no matter how tough a light it may be, it's still a light.


Having just spent part of my afternoon playing with Talons and Night Hawks on MegaMech (instead of writing an essay) I think the advantages they have are long range weapons so they can opt to take energy based long range, low probability of success shots with ER Large Lasers, ER PPCs or Heavy PPCs which most other light 'Mechs can't - against other light designs and lighter mediums they are pretty tough little things
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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #21 on: 01 May 2015, 11:55:27 »
Definitely not the case. I've actually found that using it (and mechs like it) is one of the most mentally stimulating thing in Battletech, since you have to be so careful in plotting your movement and are often forced to decide between better TNs for yourself or harder ones for your opponent, and you really have to be careful because no matter how tough a light it may be, it's still a light.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear - I mean it's a bit boring strictly from design perspective.  It's all very much by the numbers - max armour, high speed, all energy armament made up of a long ranged hole poker and a couple of mediums.  There's nothing unexpected or unusual going on here.  By contrast the Nighthawk mounts an ER and standard Large Laser - that's not a massive deal, but it is relatively unique.

I get that playing them is anything but boring because, ultimately, you're still running a light so if you screw up even slightly you'll get squashed flat by something bigger than you.

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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #22 on: 01 May 2015, 21:37:01 »
Quote
Mountain wolf battlemechs is mentioned in the back story of another mech, which came about much later in 3010.. the Merlin.
Mountain Wolf Battlemechs only produced three known designs. The Night Hawk, the Merlin, and the Sling. All three were rousing successes. The Night Hawk, of course made its name during the Star League era. The Merlin made waves in the late Succession Wars for being the first new design in ages. And the Sling... made its mark in Operation Klondike. Where it would distinguish itself enough that no less than the bloodthirsty Jaguars would pattern an Omnimech after it. As would the Capellans.

Quote
By contrast the Nighthawk mounts an ER and standard Large Laser - that's not a massive deal, but it is relatively unique.
Indeed I had wondered about it when I first saw it. Why didn't they just make both of them ERLL's? It took a while for me to realize that one was for sniping and the other was for brawling. The two together generated just enough excess heat that the mech could still make a clean getaway without worrying about overheating.

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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #23 on: 02 May 2015, 07:07:01 »
...
Indeed I had wondered about it when I first saw it. Why didn't they just make both of them ERLL's? It took a while for me to realize that one was for sniping and the other was for brawling. The two together generated just enough excess heat that the mech could still make a clean getaway without worrying about overheating.

I have alwas been wondering whether it would have been a good idea to make both LLs ERs and drop the MPL for two more DHS. More acurracy at range but lower raw firepower up close.
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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #24 on: 02 May 2015, 10:36:43 »
I have alwas been wondering whether it would have been a good idea to make both LLs ERs and drop the MPL for two more DHS. More acurracy at range but lower raw firepower up close.


I'd actually be tempted to swap the Large Laser for a couple more MPLs for the accuracy bonus when you close and anything else into DHSs to let you use the ER Large more when you close in
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Re: (Second) Mech(s) Of the Week - Night Hawk and Talon.
« Reply #25 on: 02 May 2015, 11:06:24 »
I've used all the Nighthawks and they're excellent.

The Talon not so much...
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