Author Topic: Musing on Mixing Rules Systems for an AU: BTU, RenLeg, Epic, etc...  (Read 2344 times)

CapricornNoble

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First, lemme preface this post with the most important part: I really don't like big stompy robots. I think they're stupid. That's right, I said it. Still with me? Ok, proceed....

So, I've been spending an inordinate amount of time pouring over the rules and the forums trying to figure out the best way to build my Periphery faction, a small high-tech enclave that uses NO mechs whatsoever, but focuses on a solid Warship fleet and very tightly-integrated conventional combined arms. Kinda a tiny, min/maxed version of the AFFS and the US Marine Corps.....but the more time I spend reading, and looking at the weapons tables, and struggling with FASAnomics, the more I find too many infuriating compromises to keep the focus on the big stompy robots. When I first got into Battletech, I was about 12 and picked up the 3rd Edition boxed set, then Battlespace and most importantly, The Succession Wars. I've probably spent 100x as many hours pushing counters of entire Davion regiments across the Inner Sphere as I have filling in armor bubbles from medium laser damage. So I like grand strategy. And if I DO bother to play something tactical, I like some semblance of realism, and my idea of "tactical" is rarely smaller than a company. For reference, the computer games I play are things like Hearts of Iron, Aurora 4X, Distant Worlds, and Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations. I haven't touched Paradox's Battletech game at all yet. I think the BTU is a great backdrop for a humans-only warfare setting, loaded with skullduggery and unparalleled world-building and detail. It's a reasonably-hard Game of Thrones in space. But there's too much inconsistent cruft that has never been ret-conned.

In almost any game I try to craft entire militaries at the grand-strategy level (so long-term production and logistics decisions matter to me) based on my perception of informed decisions of maximizing their tactical successes. This is where my problem with BT comes in: the engineering and weapon systems "balance" just completely shatters my suspension of disbelief. I want ground combat that is closer to 21st-century in nature, but with Gauss rifles on my tanks and power armored infantry. I'm a little more lenient when it comes to realism in my space combat.....but I want giant interstellar capital ships with sensible weapons loadouts (so NOT the canon BT Warships...). Anyways, I'm thinking of doing a wholesale review/alteration of the Inner Sphere's tech and economy fluff, and slapping together an integrated ruleset to support my vision like this:


Strategic Level:
Mix Strategic Operations and Interstellar Operations, and probably bolt on some very granular house rules about economics and production. How much of the interstellar GDP goes into the army's personnel budget? That matters ya know. Might have to cut a company from every line battalion if we want to afford expanding the Navy....
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Operational Level:
Renegade Legion: Prefect (it uses planet maps similar to those in Interstellar Operations or Turning Points series, but uses a much larger and more interesting solar system and interplanetary combat model)
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Tactical Level (space):
Battlespace with all-custom designs, and mostly Warship-focused? I might need to play with the weapon systems here, more emphasis on chucking long-range missiles....maybe some influence from Attack Vector: Tactical or the PC game "Children of a Dead Earth"

Tactical Level (ground):
Epic: Armageddon with custom units and army lists. I consider this game's mechanics some of the best for reasonably realistic yet fast-playing battalion-level combat. It has granularity down to individual vehicles and fire teams/squads, but plays much faster as the weapons are usually grouped down to 2-4 weapon types per unit (usually based on what they are best at killing), and I think 2 rolls for shooting (one to-hit by the attacker, one "armor save" roll by the defender). It handles suppressing fire, morale, leadership, command and control, and initiative with elegance and simplicity.

The construction system would be BT's construction, but I'd need major changes to the weapons list, maybe even trim it down to something much closer to RenLeg: Centurion's (one thing I hate about tabletop game designers is their passion for constantly introducing new weapons and equipment rules, I get it from a "we have to sell products" perspective but most of it would never pass a military review board into serial production outside of maybe Nazi Germany). So I would be designing basically non-nerfed BT vehicles and power armor, then converting them to a slightly-abstracted level for actual gameplay purposes. Sure I could arbitrarily dictate equipment stats at the E:A level, but I think a codified construction system is good for enforcing certain "left and right lateral limits", because I want hard engineering and logistical constraints to what is possible in a combat unit.




Alternatively, I could do the unit design work in GURPS.....I know very little about GURPS right now and the vast array of books for sci-fi/space combat is even more overwhelming to me than BT's rules, so I'm hesitant to take the plunge.

....Or I could sit tight until 2020 and just do all of my world-building in the C# version of Aurora 4X, then write up some BT-style Field Manuals and Technical Readouts afterwards.....

Daryk

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'Mechs excel at a few things compared to "conventional" forces, but the main one that would allow them to exist in such a universe is their unparalleled ability to deal with terrain.  Personally, I've always thought them a better fit for Special Forces.  They have extremely dense fire power, and the aforementioned mobility (both of which justify their expense).  AND the ability to be dropped directly from space.  That is probably their only realistic "conventional" role: securing a landing zone for all the more logical conventional forces.

MadCapellan

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Renegade Legion's rules already have the whole environment/scale thing pretty well licked - I can't think of a single game that's more hard sci-fi on the table AND so well integrates space combat, ground combat, strategic warfare & the RPG. Just run with the whole suite, no need to try to reinvent the wheel to shoehorn Battlespace (already around 75% Leviathan) & Epic 40k into the equation!  ;D

Daryk

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Oh fine... make me regret never being able to afford Renegade Legion AND BattleTech back in the day...  ;D

MadCapellan

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Oh fine... make me regret never being able to afford Renegade Legion AND BattleTech back in the day...  ;D

If I'm 100% honest, of the two, Renegade Legion was the better game. Battletech's setting is head & shoulders better, & giant robots are infinitely sexier than grav tanks, but in terms of mechanics, Renegade Legion is amazing.

Daryk

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I've heard that, but could never get past the damage templates of various weapons... It always struck me penetrators were always the better choice, so why did anything else exist?

MadCapellan

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I've heard that, but could never get past the damage templates of various weapons... It always struck me penetrators were always the better choice, so why did anything else exist?

Because surface cracking shots make it easier for later shots to penetrate, & explode inside dealing crippling damage to systems. Lasers had the best penetration in the game, but if all you fired was lasers you'd have to get very lucky to hit the same spot you'd hit previously & score a kill.

Daryk

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Were lasers the ones with the T-shaped penetration templates?

MadCapellan

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Were lasers the ones with the T-shaped penetration templates?

Nope, just a straight line vertical through the armor, you're thinking of the hammerhead gauss rounds....

CapricornNoble

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'Mechs excel at a few things compared to "conventional" forces, but the main one that would allow them to exist in such a universe is their unparalleled ability to deal with terrain.  Personally, I've always thought them a better fit for Special Forces.  They have extremely dense fire power, and the aforementioned mobility (both of which justify their expense).  AND the ability to be dropped directly from space.  That is probably their only realistic "conventional" role: securing a landing zone for all the more logical conventional forces.

Ehhh, I would counter-argue that power armor deployed via small craft or airdropped can seize any target in difficult terrain with a lower overall capital/resource investment than that required to develop and deploy giant robots to fulfill the same missions. How does a 10m-tall war machine extract a High Value Target from a cave in the mountains? Or seize a deepwater oil rig without crashing through the structure and blowing the whole place to pieces?

Renegade Legion's rules already have the whole environment/scale thing pretty well licked - I can't think of a single game that's more hard sci-fi on the table AND so well integrates space combat, ground combat, strategic warfare & the RPG. Just run with the whole suite, no need to try to reinvent the wheel to shoehorn Battlespace (already around 75% Leviathan) & Epic 40k into the equation!  ;D

Well, I view Battlespace as "Leviathan refined"...there's a lot of stuff in Leviathan's *gameplay* mechanics that I don't like (non-Newtonian movement and multi-hex ships, weapons ranges, shields, etc...). But I love the aesthetics of the Shiva-class. Hmmmmm, I wonder how Battlespace designs would look if you basically replaced the Dropship rules by extending the Warship tonnages and mechanics down to 1,000t? That would eliminate some of the oddities like the vastly different efficiencies of Dropship and Warship sublight engines....Then change the weapon list to something roughly matching RenLeg: Centurion's, but capital scale.....and make new designs similar in armament and function to the canon Leviathan designs.....

The purpose of Epic is to have a system of resolving tactical engagements that doesn't involve "record sheets" and scratching out armor boxes on individual tank sides. That stuff isn't fun to me. I'll tolerate it for capital ships but not for tanks. I need to review the Centurion weapons templates and figure out how they would map to E:A. Damn my copy of Centurion is in the States....good thing I'm heading home in a few weeks, I can stuff my luggage full of Renegade Legion boxed sets on my return trip.  :))

Daryk

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'Mechs wouldn't be good for every SOF mission, but their prevalence in the force would be about the same (i.e., rare).  What 'mechs have over BA is endurance.  In fact, 'mechs make great BA transports in terrain that can hide them (and I'd argue they'd all have Chameleon Light Polarization and Null-Signature systems), AND they can be dropped from orbit just like BA.

CapricornNoble

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'Mechs wouldn't be good for every SOF mission, but their prevalence in the force would be about the same (i.e., rare).  What 'mechs have over BA is endurance.

Can you clarify what you mean by endurance? Ability to absorb damage? Ability to stay "on station" for long durations?
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In fact, 'mechs make great BA transports in terrain that can hide them (and I'd argue they'd all have Chameleon Light Polarization and Null-Signature systems), AND they can be dropped from orbit just like BA.

There are maybe some extreme edge cases where a mech might seem like the answer.....but I'm sure the same could be said of the Panzer VIII Maus too. But those are often tactical perspectives. Consider the strategic costs:

-Mech research and development
-Mech factory construction and operation (I'm sure proper fabrication of 10-meter tall endoskeletons is going to involve some expensive problem-solving)
-Mech pilot and maintenance crew training and doctrinal development
-Mech-unique logistical support (think Mech bays in Dropships)

Any group of flag officers worth a damn will look at that laundry list of expenses, do a cost-benefit analysis, and instead say "Nah, just send 2-3x as many BA + aviation assets....that stuff is already in the inventory."

Which, now that I think about it, the existing BT Strategic/Interstellar Operations really don't handle these sorts of acquisition management and production cost calculations either.......I dunno what game has better rules outside of some PC games (HOI4 and Aurora 4X, specifically).

Daryk

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I meant on station time, yes.  They have fusion engines, which for "reasons" can't be mounted on BA.

A lot of the infrastructure would be common with industrial 'mechs (which do have advantages over plain forklifts).

CapricornNoble

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Sooooooo, looks for now like I'm gonna use GURPS Vehicles to design everything, then use Epic:A for the ground tactical combat, Prefect for the operational maneuvering.....still haven't settled on a tactical space ruleset yet. While GURPS Vehicles is insanely laborious, I'm so far loving that there is a consistent and reasonably realistic framework for pretty much any weapon technology and performance configuration you can imagine.

Right now my plan is:


1. Design a basic tracked tank (done), wheeled IFV, and infantry squad (done) for a faction.
2. Design a Dropship to carry a battalion of tanks or mechanized infantry. This will be a rough equivalent to BT's Seeker-class.
3. Design an Aerospace fighter to provide air cover and support. I like the way the Shilone looks but hate its armament, not sure what I'll select as a template design here.
4. Design an LPD-equivalent Warship to carry a brigade's worth of Dropships. Probably involving some fluff changes to Jump Engine engineering and functionality (no more solar sails, for one).
5. Design some escort Warships.
6. Flesh out a few more details including artillery, AA, and other ground-side assets, as well as DOS (days of supply) requirements for everything.

I should then have the equivalent of a modern Expeditionary Strike Group. That should give a basic building block for the cost of assets needed to attack another world. From there I can set some left/right lateral limits for a faction's national defense strategy, determine overall military size requirements, figure out what is/is not supportable with a re-assessment of the economic numbers that we have available for the Inner Sphere.....hmmm.....

 

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