Pathfinder or D&D 5

[Scotty]

Sorcerers don't get nearly enough spell points and the number needed to gain a spell slot is stupidly high.  Sorcerers got shafted compared to Wizards (again).

Having a high CHA is significantly more useful than having a high INT in 5e without skill points.  That said, Sorcery Points = 1/level is plenty, because the point of them isn't to brute force craft a spell slot to pump up your numbers (even if that's possible; you can start casting [one] 5th level spell as early as character level 5).  They are significantly more flexible than Wizards.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The problem is that too much of a Sorcerer's abilities are based on spending spell points.  Sure, you can create bonus spell slots, but often it's too expensive to do so unless you want to blow your entire daily allotment on one slot and not use any of your other spell point-dependent abilities (this is especially true if a 5th level character wanted to create a 5th level slot, since that costs more points than they have per day so they'd need to sacrifice a 2nd or 3rd level slot or two 1st level slots for extra points).  Sorcerers also get skunked on number of spells known: at 20th level they know 15 spells, a number that's comparable to the number known by Arcane Trickster Rogues and Eldritch Knight Fighters, versus the 44 a Wizard would learn just from leveling (25 of which would be prepped).  Plus Wizards have Arcane Recovery, which means they can cast substantially more spells per day than Sorcerers (in addition to having a dramatically larger spell list).

Sorcerers are much less flexible than Wizards.

[Aokarasu]

RE: starting at 1st level. When most, if not all, of your players are new to 5E, I think starting at 1st level isn't necessarily a bad idea. Even as someone that has been playing as long as I have, I don't mind starting there to learn the system decently enough. YMMV

[DarkSpade]

Use spell points to regain a slot.

But what if I need the spell points later!? 

This is how my mind works for any per day ability.  xp

[HobbesHurlbut]

I prefer systems were the biggest restriction is per encounter rather than per day.

I find that's one of the very few good points about 4th Ed; breaking the "powers" down into At-Will, Per-Encounter, and Per-Day.

[monbvol]

5th kind of does the same thing by letting certain things recharge after a short rest( typically an hour).  Which is only helpful with a Wizard and their Arcane Recovery(man Sorcerers did get rather shafted in 5th).

[Aokarasu]

5th kind of does the same thing by letting certain things recharge after a short rest( typically an hour).  Which is only helpful with a Wizard and their Arcane Recovery(man Sorcerers did get rather shafted in 5th).

Warlocks regain their spell slots after a short rest, as well.

[truetanker]

I hear you.  At least 5th Edition made spellcasters useful at 1st level.  I can remember back in the bad old days of 2nd Edition trying to play a wizard: one spell per day and 4 HP.  And it took twice as long to reach second level as any other class.

I usually  buy a cheap bodyguard that'll hold the ground near me  in exchange for loot.

TT

[Sartris]

Sounds like better protection than relying on the other PCs actually

[truetanker]

It is... just less money to spend and you gotta feed and cloth them... it's called retainership...  goes back to expert ruleset (blue book) D&D.

If you gain an employee, and the thickest part, keep them from leaving on sour notes, it's a great way to bolster your group without the need of more players.

TT

[Daryk]

I've always believed NPCs are people too, so that kind of arrangement could be tricky if not handled properly.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

And it's something that many GMs didn't allow anyway.

[Orin J.]

I've always believed NPCs are people too, so that kind of arrangement could be tricky if not handled properly.

that's alright, PCs not doing things properly is part of the fun of a GM!  >:D

[Daryk]

Well, the DM has to handle them properly too...

"You want me to do WHAT?"

[Sartris]

Well, the DM has to handle them properly too...

"You want me to do WHAT?"

Ok you can do that

Five minutes later

You have died

[Elmoth]

And then all those retainers become PC :)

[Dubble_g]

My brother got me the D&D art retrospective, "Art and Arcana" for my birthday,csnd it's made me all nostalgic for the game. Haven't played since 2nd Ed came out, but I just picked up a copy of the 5th Ed player's handbook.

First impression is there's a lot more resource management required for player abilities, but saving throws and combat seem streamlined. Not sure I quite get the need for three different classes of magic user when they all share the same spell lists? Maybe this will become clearer in time...

Now I just gave to find a game ... I live in a nonEnglish speaking country so this might be a challenge.

[Aokarasu]

Not sure I quite get the need for three different classes of magic user when they all share the same spell lists?

Sorceror, warlock, and wizard are different, thematically, and their spell lists may overlap some, but they aren't completely identical. Resource management is different for each; warlocks get less, overall, but recover them after both short and long rests, and their spell slots are always all the same level (reference the book for that). Warlocks also get very interesting capabilities via the available eldritch invocations. Wizards will generally have the largest repertoire of spells, so possibly the most utility. They can also recover half their spell levels via an ability that refreshes after a long rest. Sorcerors I am the least familiar with, so don't want to give you bad information.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Warlocks focus mostly on damage output and they aren't really spellcasters as they only get a couple spells per encounter.  They primarily use their Cantrips and Invocations.  They get some spells from the Wizard list but also have spells that are exclusive to the Warlock class plus gain other spells added to their list based on their specialization.

Wizards are similar to the way that they've always been, but in 5th Edition they no longer have to prepare specific spell slots.  Instead, they just choose a number of spells out of their spellbook equal to their level plus their Intelligence Bonus that they designate as being prepared and can freely mix and match these spells based on their available spell slots.  They gain a few powers based on their specalization.  They have the highest number of spells available of any of the arcane classes, both in terms of how large their spell list is and how many spells from the list they can learn.

Sorcerers use a truncated version of the Wizard spell list and obnoxiously lack access to many Wizard spells but have no spells unique to their class.  They gain mildly more non-spellcasting abilities than Wizards do, but none of their specializations have any powers that are great enough to justify choosing them over playing a Wizard.  They also have a pathetically small number of spells they know at a given level, cramping their already limited utility.  Like 3rd Edition, they got shafted.

[Matti]

Sorcerers use a truncated version of the Wizard spell list and obnoxiously lack access to many Wizard spells but have no spells unique to their class.  They gain mildly more non-spellcasting abilities than Wizards do, but none of their specializations have any powers that are great enough to justify choosing them over playing a Wizard.  They also have a pathetically small number of spells they know at a given level, cramping their already limited utility.  Like 3rd Edition, they got shafted.

Are you sure about that?



Based on my experience with D&D5 and chatting with GMs & players, sorcerers are most adapt of the three mentioned spellcasters in non-magical combat without resorting to multiclassing. So sorcerer can area blast with fireball, follow it with unlimited number of firebolts (or other cantrips), and defend herself in melee without need to resort to other player characters or NPC bodyguard to act as a shield. Perfect Best D&D5 character class to recreate Lina Inverse, the Pink Sorceress.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Wizards can do all of those things just as easily and they can actually afford to learn spells that aren't straight up combat spells.  I played a Sorcerer for nearly a year and I'm playing a Wizard now, and my Wizard character has more versatility at 3rd level than my Sorcerer did at 8th.  Sorcerers start out decent but rapidly fall behind.

And when it comes to nonmagical combat, neither one's a good choice: you're really going to see results based more on your racial proficiencies (so Dwarf or Elf) than your class weapons.  Or play a Pact of the Blade Warlock.

[(SMD)MadCow]

But what if I need the spell points later!? 

This is how my mind works for any per day ability.  xp

Cant spend the spell points if you have no spell slots left...

[DarkSpade]

Cant spend the spell points if you have no spell slots left...

  Yeah, but if I save them for more spell slots, I'll constantly be afraid to use them to empower a spell for fear that I'll need more spell slots later.   :'(

On the up side, blowing everything right away and then having nothing to fall back on later is totally in character for my sorcerer.   :thumbsup: