Katherine Steiner-Davion's takeover of the FedCom/FedSuns

[Billy Boy Mark II]

Is there any source material as to how exactly that came to be or do we merely have the timeline entries and brief paragraphs which just say she came to New Avalon at the request of Yvonne Steiner-Davion after a series of manipulated polls and political pressure and took over sometime in October 3060?

Thinking of doing a AU timeline about Katherine not taking over the FS.

[The Eagle]

Its discussed in the FedCom Civil War sourcebook. Basically, she controlled the media and convinced Yvonne that she and Victor were hated.  Yvonne thought she was bowing to the will of the people, which is why she gave up the throne to Kate.

[Billy Boy Mark II]

Is that the only source we have? We don't have anymore details on how that coup took place?

[The Eagle]

That's the first source I came up with off the top of my head.  It might be in the novel line somewhere- the coup occured while Victor was in Clan space, so that'd be the end of the Twilight of the Clans maybe? - and other sourcebooks for the timeframe that might discuss it are Shattered Sphere and Field Manual: Federated Suns.

[Billy Boy Mark II]

Yeah I've looked through both of those... I suspect they kept it a bit vague as to explain why every member of the AFFS High Command had a sudden brain freeze...  :D

[Ruger]

Oops wrong thread

Ruger

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

That's the first source I came up with off the top of my head.  It might be in the novel line somewhere- the coup occured while Victor was in Clan space, so that'd be the end of the Twilight of the Clans maybe? - and other sourcebooks for the timeframe that might discuss it are Shattered Sphere and Field Manual: Federated Suns.

It was Prince of Havoc, and all that we got was Victor arriving back in the Inner Sphere after the Great Refusal and having Yvonne tearfully tell him she'd lost his realm.  The description was minimal and mostly just sounded like Kathrine managed to conquer the entire realm with some very obvious media spin that somehow nobody in the entire Federated Suns actually noticed while it was happening.

Or as the old Battletech meme went, stupid pills.

[Billy Boy Mark II]

It was Prince of Havoc, and all that we got was Victor arriving back in the Inner Sphere after the Great Refusal and having Yvonne tearfully tell him she'd lost his realm.  The description was minimal and mostly just sounded like Kathrine managed to conquer the entire realm with some very obvious media spin that somehow nobody in the entire Federated Suns actually noticed while it was happening.

Or as the old Battletech meme went, stupid pills.

it did always strike as a bit strange that the High Command - Sortek, Jackson, backed by the garrison (which presumably at that stage had not been packed with Kat Loyalists) just did... Nothing.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

it did always strike as a bit strange that the High Command - Sortek, Jackson, backed by the garrison (which presumably at that stage had not been packed with Kat Loyalists) just did... Nothing.

Plus all of Yvonne's advisors, the intelligence people who were presumably loyal to Victor, the governments of the worlds themselves, political scientists... Somehow nobody at all noticed it happening.

[Billy Boy Mark II]

Plus all of Yvonne's advisors, the intelligence people who were presumably loyal to Victor, the governments of the worlds themselves, political scientists... Somehow nobody at all noticed it happening.

Hell not even a junior officer saying "Guy's this is actually illegal..."

[Easy]

Get enough senior officers to buy into some kind of badass system-no-system, by propaganda convincing you you've been the victim of a (straw-man) conspiracy (KSDs notorious propaganda corps), and the 'exigencies of the moment' cover over, temporarily; negligence, wrongdoing and the usurpation of authority. We've got plenty of Real World history to point to as examples of when leadership prefers their own victim narrative to the exclusion of reality.

A simple version is that a lot of officers missed out on the glory and opportunity of Operation Bulldog, and envied the Draconis Combine's center stage role, and committed a soft coup, with KSD willing to lead and protect them with her twisted worldview.

A worldview that eventually makes her a concubine of Vladimir Wolf, perhaps where she always belonged, like she was living out a 'Savage Heart' paperback novel fantasy. Unfortunately for the FedCom, her worldview cost them a generation of their best.

I figure, if I was a Lyran staff officer, I could be critical of any decision that left the Jade Falcons in place, then consider a view that the Lyran Alliance did not really get all that much from Bulldog. The Jade Falcons weren't all demoralized like they were supposed to be, and started a-warring not long after the shooting started in the former FedCom. Davion officers could buy into it, or react violently against it.

[dgorsman]

Not entirely disagreeing.  But the true-blue (er, yellow?) officers would be reassigned off world to somewhere out of the way e.g. stranding a unit at Galax.  I suspect a few active troublemakers had "accidents" or were disappeared as a message to the rest.  The more politically astute kept their heads down and out of the way, and a few of those were biding their time until they had a realistic chance of fixing the situation.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Get enough senior officers to buy into some kind of badass system-no-system with propaganda convincing you you've been the victim of a straw-man conspiracy (KSDs notorious propaganda corps) and the 'exigencies of the moment' cover over negligence, wrongdoing and the usurpation of authority. We've got plenty of Real World history to point to as examples of when leadership prefers their own victim narrative to the exclusion of reality.

Sure, but it hinges on the fact that nobody allied to Victor and Yvonne in the entire Inner Sphere noticed anything happening until it was too late and the entire Federated Suns is lacking in anyone to counter hostile propaganda.  Even Morgan and Phelan Kell, who were specifically supposed to be protecting Yvonne couldn't say "hey girl, you're being played."

[Easy]

People noticed what was happening. VSD was getting briefed about it constantly, advisors were telling him, yelling at him, "Get in the game! Take back the throne on New Avalon!"

Love him, or hate him, VSD chose to play pastoral with Omi instead. Two decades later, he left the entire system and joined the Republic. VSD never wanted to rule the Federated Suns, or the Lyran Alliance, for that matter. He said so enough times. Fault him for it, or not, taking back the throne on New Avalon and pushing for election to First Lord was VSD's destiny in a lot of minds.

Demurring from that destiny, VSD charted another course, but, perhaps, the Inner Sphere, caught up in its own plans, found it too difficult to find a different way, before it was too late, and the only recourse left was the sword.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

No, I'm talking about before that, when Victor left the Inner Sphere to go fight the Clans and left Yvonne in charge with the Kells and various other supposedly intelligent adults around to watch out for her.  That was when Kathrine made her move, then Victor got back and discovered that Kathrine had taken over in his absence.  Then he went off to play pastoral with Omi and tried to pretend that everything was okay.

[Easy]

No, I'm talking about before that, when Victor left the Inner Sphere to go fight the Clans and left Yvonne in charge with the Kells and various other supposedly intelligent adults around to watch out for her.  That was when Kathrine made her move, then Victor got back and discovered that Kathrine had taken over in his absence.  Then he went off to play pastoral with Omi and tried to pretend that everything was okay.

VSD took everybody he could trust with him into the Smoke Jaguar Occupation Zone. Who, actually, was left behind to mind the store? Who wasn't mobilizing for those two years? The Allies were at Defiance, or laying over, somewhere, hermitage-style, laying plans for Bulldog and its side issues.

Unless I'm mistaken, the question is, where was that anonymous base of support for the Allies vision? What was the Allies alternative to a willing-to-fight, unwilling-to-rule, VSD?

Uncle Morgan Hasek-Davion was assassinated, and the crime was never officially solved before the Solaris riots or Kathil.

Focht had a compromised past and a history of bad blood with Theodore, who wanted to be First Lord, and if, no offense, Victor was willing to stand aside for the sake of Omi, who in the Draconis Combine is going to oppose that?

The March Lords went their own way, trying to bridge the gap with the old 'enemy-of-my-enemy', one could reason.

Morgan Kell was burdened with Phalen Kell's new society, the Jade Falcons and an autonomous region with three or four different commands, himself, the LAAF, the Com Guards, and mercs. His ARDC a kind of a circus, and managing that, combined with a basic abstention from Tharkad politics, guaranteed him a solid rock from which to hold the Lyran Alliance/Jade Falcon center, but little or no leverage with the Estates General.

I'm not quite as familiar with internal Davion politics, but they seem, at that time, to center around the March rivalries of the Hasek-Davions, the Sandovals and whoever was fighting the good fight against the Concordat. With Uncle Morgan gone, Yvonne didn't appear to have an effective champion.

Whoever Yvonne's champion may have been supposed to be? Maybe he or she died an anonymous death in the Smoke Jaguar OZ, or on Huntress, and for the lack of that champion, Yvonne was forced to submit.

[Sartris]

it's well known that people in the inner sphere only obtain a shred of agency when within the earshot of a main character. 

[AlphaMirage]

Yvonne was only regent, and there is nothing explicitly (as far as I know) against her surrendering "her regency" to Katherine if she so chose assuming it would make it through the Privy Council, which was apparently stacked with Katherine's kind of political animals.  The FedSuns doesn't force someone to be regent but does have clearly defined prerequisites to be First Prince (among them you couldn't have been regent) so Anti-Katherine people who knew this could be willing to look the other way knowing she can't go further than Regent. 

Also if Victor, who at this time had apparently not made it clear he didn't want to be First Prince, were to die in the Clan Homeworlds his little brother Arthur would become First Prince as soon as he completed his term of service in the AFFC.  Katherine's regency would last a comparably short time and with the Prince's Champion and other March Lords to keep her in check would likely be uneventful (The Suns are very idealistic like that) wheras stopping her at that moment (without the many crack FedSuns, DCMS, SLDF or ComGuards) might get messy.

There were also likely Suns nobles that sought to curry favor with the Lyran Alliance, or were upset when the bank rolls stopped coming in during the FedCom split.  They could see a Katherine regency as an excellent business opportunity and throw their support behind like minded people in power.

[Colt Ward]

You also get a bit of a perspective on it from Sun-Tzu Liao when he is dealing with St Ives and the unrest in the Chaos March.

But yeah, even with Morgan Hasek-Davion and Ardan Sortek out of the Inner Sphere its hard to imagine no one would have blocked Katherine.  Heck QUINTUS ALLARD was sitting on New Avalon while Yvonne was present.  Its also hard to imagine the FS had no equivalent of the Society of Cincinnati.

[AlphaMirage]

They have the Warrior Cabals not Cincinnatus.  You have to much faith in the Warrior Elite of the FedSuns.  They are just as Warminded as the Combine just slightly less bloodthirsty.

Quintus Allard probably did make some fuss about it but he should have been keeping Arthur safe.

[Colt Ward]

Katherine would still not be their candidate, she presented the (laughable) image of a peacemaker.

[glitterboy2098]

But yeah, even with Morgan Hasek-Davion and Ardan Sortek out of the Inner Sphere its hard to imagine no one would have blocked Katherine.  Heck QUINTUS ALLARD was sitting on New Avalon while Yvonne was present.  Its also hard to imagine the FS had no equivalent of the Society of Cincinnati.

Quintus Allard at that point was 80 if not 90+ (remember he was already fairly aged with multiple adult kids when he took over as head of MIIO in 3022) , and per some dialog, pretending to have a rare incurable form of alzheimer's in order to keep him from being abducted and pumped for all the secrets he'd learned over his long career. while he was on new Avalon (and just as smart as ever in his one appearance), the fact is he was only on the planet because Kathrine was holding him hostage to keep the other Allards from moving against her. presumably he'd been in retirement on his homeworld of Kestrel or maybe at his holdings on Bristol when the changeover happened. he hadn't been the head of MIIO since the 3040's when Justin Allard took over the position, so odds are even if he saw it happening, he was in no position to actually effect the scheme. and when Kathrine took over, you can bet rounding him up (along with presumably any other such political hostages) was one of the first things she did.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Not after she took over.  Before.  When she was running her whole AstroTurf popularity contest to make it seem like people wanted her in charge.  Nobody at all seemed to notice this happening.  Nobody ever said "huh, Kitty's got an unusual upswing in popularity on these planets.  What's causing that?"

[Wrangler]

Quintus Allard at that point was 80 if not 90+ (remember he was already fairly aged with multiple adult kids when he took over as head of MIIO in 3022) , and per some dialog, pretending to have a rare incurable form of alzheimer's in order to keep him from being abducted and pumped for all the secrets he'd learned over his long career. while he was on new Avalon (and just as smart as ever in his one appearance), the fact is he was only on the planet because Kathrine was holding him hostage to keep the other Allards from moving against her. presumably he'd been in retirement on his homeworld of Kestrel or maybe at his holdings on Bristol when the changeover happened. he hadn't been the head of MIIO since the 3040's when Justin Allard took over the position, so odds are even if he saw it happening, he was in no position to actually effect the scheme. and when Kathrine took over, you can bet rounding him up (along with presumably any other such political hostages) was one of the first things she did.

His Grandson on Kai's side, Quintus  went to ground for while. It suggested he was working for MIIO in some form, but it was fleshed out and it technically went poof when Fasa and regular novels ended.

I have to agree, that stupid pills aka (it feels like) author fiat was in full play for Victor being pushed into ComStar.

[phoenixalpha]

It's not like we haven't any evidence of this happening in the past, or present for that matter.

History (and current events) are littered with examples of similar things happening.

Katherine played a very good PR/shill game and people fell for it.

[dgorsman]

Well, maybe not fall for it.  More like "How bad could it be, besides Victor will kick her bony Steiner butt out if needed."

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It's not like we haven't any evidence of this happening in the past, or present for that matter.

History (and current events) are littered with examples of similar things happening.

Katherine played a very good PR/shill game and people fell for it.

The problem was that Kathrine's alleged PR skills were never displayed all that well.  When she was on screen, she tended to display roughly the same level of subtlety as a rhinoceros with a hangover.

[glitterboy2098]

It is also worth mentioning that it probably wasn't illegal. Remember, she is a steiner-davion, and despite appearances, the lyran commonwealth never officially split off from the fedcom under her rule. It just sort of had a dual leadership thing going. The two halves had been basically semi-independant states the whole time anyway so it didnt really effect much beyond propaganda.

Kathrine, as an elder sibling and not disowned by the family, would have been a perfectly legal candidate for Yvonne to abdicate to.
It was of questionable justification, but legal

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Not illegal aside from Katherine having never met the military service requirement for First Princess, you mean.

[glitterboy2098]

She underwent the dragoons training alongside victor.training
Which probably counts, given her mother melissa went through infantry training to fill her military requirement on the lyran side. Kathrine my not have been all that interested in a military career, but from all evidence she was given a minimum of training to meet requirements.

[phoenixalpha]

The problem was that Kathrine's alleged PR skills were never displayed all that well.  When she was on screen, she tended to display roughly the same level of subtlety as a rhinoceros with a hangover.

Yes I do not disagree, she was written like a sledgehammer not a scalpel. But as history (and current events) show you dont need to be smart/believable/charismatic to get ahead, sometimes having the right people in the right place at the right time more than makes up for any lack of character, intelligence and/or skills.

People believe what they want to and if they are told enough times - people will believe whatever they want to (or are told to) believe. Sometimes that is the most powerful thing in the universe.

[Colt Ward]

Huh?  Katherine got on the news from Tharkad during Operation Guerrero and officially invoked whatever clause of blahblah agreement that was the merger of the two states and withdrew the Lyran half for her reasons.  They had been two separate states until Victor took the throne, part of why Melissa had offered to abdicate so they would officially become a single state . . . her death brought that about though it was unfortunate.  Katherine was his regent in the Lyran half until she pulled her move.

Katherine underwent training with Victor?  I do not remember her in the same room as the other heirs, though I think Cassandra was the only sibling in that room with the fake bomb.  She did not go through the trial like the other heirs.

And the FS requirement is not the same- its service, as in you were part of a regular unit.  And Melissa never served in a unit afaik.

[glitterboy2098]

I Stand corrected on the military service thing, i had assumed she would have done her one term as required of lyran nobility.


But still, the fact is that the official position Yvonne held was 'regent', not first princess. Which Kathrine was just as legally qualified to fill.

And while the lyrans did invoke warpowers and succession, the davion half of the fedcom never recognized the legality of that act and still classed them as part of the fedcom, which was one of the causes of tension between the two halves even before kathrine took over the davion half, and it was used as the basis for kathrine bringing lyran officers in to take over davion commands. Legally speaking, the fedcom never dissolved or broke, one member just underwent an identity crisis while having a snit.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Kathrine wasn't named regent, she was named First Princess and everyone ignored her lack of eligibility for the position. It doesn't really matter if the FedSuns side didn't recognize her splitting of the Lyran hall.

[Mech Salvager]

I mean, I can certainly believe that Victor was unpopular with big parts of the Federated Suns, especially the older military officers that were not close to his court. I mean, all of his focus was on fighting the clans, a threat that hadn’t struck the old Federated Suns itself. Instead, he allied with one old arch enemy of the Suns, the Draconis Combine, lending them aid whenever he could. Not to mention that from a certain point of view, he completely mishandled the Capellan Confederation. He gave them the opportunity to trample all over the Sarna March in 3057, and failed to respond to it, both during the war and after, instead focusing on the Clans. The year after, he hands Sun Tzu the position of First Lord, which makes it possible for him to take the St. Ives Compact. He plays into the Capellan’s hands again and again.

So, seeing that many likely still held the issues with their neighbouring nations as important, Victor’s singular focus on the Clans could definetly make him unpopular, I think. But sadly, this is mostly speculation.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Sun Tzu didn't invade the SIC until several years after Kathrine had already stolen the throne.

And yes, some old dog Davion military types might not have liked Victor for his military decisions, but throwing in with Kathrine, who lacked any military training and styled herself as a peacemaker, wouldn't make sense either.

[Colt Ward]

You may want to re-read the Capellan Solution . . . he started once Victor took off with Kai, its part of why he was pissed at his Mask chief.  Capellan troops may not have landed on SIC planets before Katherine had stolen her 2nd seat but they were both playing covert ops games on Tikonov and the Sarna march.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

If you really want to be technical about it, he'd been playing covert games in the SIC since, well, about the time he became Chancellor.

The difference was that once Kathrine was on the throne he switched over to an overt invasion.