Author Topic: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?  (Read 8131 times)

GespenstM

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Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« on: 19 May 2019, 12:03:47 »
I was looking through the MUL, and was surprised to discover the Thor II is listed as being in use by mercenaries. After re-reading TRO 3150, I'm confused as to how this is the case. While it is mentioned to be commonly used by several clans, there's no obvious indication of how mercenaries are getting ahold of this machine. Are the Diamond Sharks/Sea Foxes selling Thor IIs to mercs, by chance? Or is there some other explanation?

GermanSumo

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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #1 on: 19 May 2019, 12:18:00 »
well, although the default answer "diamond sharks" to this question gets a long tooth... in this case its justified in the fluff. first off: i assume most is-clan merchant castes trade with inner sphere powers in one way or the other. especially in the thor II´s case though... the tr 3145 clans explicitly states the sharks using the mech in numbers against wolves. and as they literally trade nearly anything (aside from some designs they keep for themselves) to everybody willing to meet the price limit. so yes. if a merc can afford their price... they sell it. i think the days of clan warriors raging at the sight of dezgra merc forces are mostly over.

dgorsman

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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #2 on: 19 May 2019, 12:37:19 »
I believe the more generic explanation is the MUL doesn't show who has factory access to what designs.  It quickly generates forces with a faction flavor, more or less.
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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #3 on: 19 May 2019, 15:33:08 »
Hmm

Deadborder

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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #4 on: 19 May 2019, 18:36:21 »
Lets not forget that the Falcons themselves are a very Mercantile clan. They just fly under the radar by compariosn because, you know, SharkFoxes. The Falcons were already selling Clantech gear to IS powers in 3085 because for all their Clan-ness and Crusader-ness they also understood the power of trade and foreign capital. (This will happen when your Merchant Factor is a Lyran). I see no reason why they weren't selling Thor IIs either.
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GespenstM

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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #5 on: 19 May 2019, 23:58:19 »
...I see the jade falcons have changed considerably since I last paid attention to them, in that case. That was back during the clan invasion era, where their gimmick was basically 'We actually MEAN all that clan honor stuff and try to abide by it, while still adapting on a few topics.'

Interesting.

dgorsman

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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #6 on: 20 May 2019, 11:00:27 »
Lets not forget that the Falcons themselves are a very Mercantile clan. They just fly under the radar by compariosn because, you know, SharkFoxes. The Falcons were already selling Clantech gear to IS powers in 3085 because for all their Clan-ness and Crusader-ness they also understood the power of trade and foreign capital. (This will happen when your Merchant Factor is a Lyran). I see no reason why they weren't selling Thor IIs either.

You sure about that?  I mean, not the mercantile part - that's well known.  While they might sell some commercial ddoodads, selling military gear seems a bit out of character.  The Horses got smacked for dealing with the WiE.
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Caedis Animus

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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #7 on: 20 May 2019, 11:29:54 »
The Horses got smacked for dealing with the WiE.
I feel like that's considered different from selling to Spheroids, somehow.

Then again, the Clans aren't exactly paragons of sensibilities.

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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #8 on: 20 May 2019, 17:18:19 »
I feel like that's considered different from selling to Spheroids, somehow.

Then again, the Clans aren't exactly paragons of sensibilities.

Exactly. Having dealings with an abjured Clan is "worse" then dealing with Spheroids. Clan logic at its finest.
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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #9 on: 20 May 2019, 18:28:11 »

Well if they sell through the Sea Foxes then they keep their own claws clean......
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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #10 on: 20 May 2019, 18:53:26 »
the doylist explanation is that since the MWDA expansions had a number of mercs using Thor's when they made those figures the Thor II they had to make the chassis available to Merc's. (if you include the named chars from the early sets, about half the Thor figures were mercs)
« Last Edit: 20 May 2019, 18:59:22 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #11 on: 21 May 2019, 11:46:19 »
Also, the MUL lists if its available in a few examples- does anyone really think the FWL of the 3060s has that many Fire Moths running around from their participation in Op Bulldog & Op Serpent?  But they have it on the MUL like everyone else because its on the IS General list like many of the other early Clan Omnis (except the Mad Dog?  Stormcrow? WTF, two big Jag mech and Timberwolf) and so theoretically available.

My personal opinion would combine with Glitterboy . . . its b/c of MWDA, and bluntly the few you see in there under merc colors represent the majority of Thor II outside of Clan hands.  As time has gone on, with the Falcons pushing in the 40s (Bonfire) and earlier Desant more will be transferring as salvage but I do not remember ever reading about too many Thor IIs (and those in fiction might have been originals) with the Desant- more Shrikes, Jupiters, Gyrfalcons, Black Hawks, & Eyries.  Quick look at Warrenborn and I do not see any with the Lyrans, Stormhammer, Steel Wolves or Republic.  I did find one with the Jade Falcons with Vanguard expansion though it could be a I or II.

Who smacked the Horses?  The Bears, Sharks, and even Crusader Wolves (complicated) had been trading with the Warden Wolves so out of the 6 Spheriod Clans at least half were occasional trading partners with the Warden Wolves.
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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #12 on: 21 May 2019, 17:46:44 »
The Thor II is also used by the Capellan Confederation and the Republic before the Blackout. Those clearly weren't salvage. The Falcons were allready trading with the Republic as early as 3085, when they were selling them Griffin IICs. And the Wolves were selling the Carnivore to Mercs at the same time.

Realistically speaking, if there's nothing stopping the Sea Foxes from trading with Mercs, there'd be nothing stopping any of the other Clans from doing such as well. Why wouldn't the Falcons try to get a share of that action as well?
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cypher226

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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #13 on: 26 June 2019, 06:39:36 »
I suppose it makes a strange kind of sense for the Clans to sell to anyone - by doing so they raise the level of their opposition to be a greater challenge, thus greater honour can be gained from defeating them.

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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #14 on: 26 June 2019, 09:03:23 »
 . . . sort of had to with the need to explain how folks like the MWDA CapCon had Clan mechs, though with their ridding themselves of mercs and how their production went they seem to have a bit of a stigma about using 'foreign' equipment.

Its certainly not where the Clans were at going into the Jihad when the Falcons were one of the prime movers trying to hammer the Sharks for selling gear.
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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #15 on: 27 June 2019, 13:44:29 »
...I see the jade falcons have changed considerably since I last paid attention to them, in that case. That was back during the clan invasion era, where their gimmick was basically 'We actually MEAN all that clan honor stuff and try to abide by it, while still adapting on a few topics.'

Interesting.

Even in the days of the initial invasion, the Falcons' approach to honor was always "do as I say, not as I do."
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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #16 on: 27 June 2019, 14:20:50 »
Mercs apparently have more cash than they can burn in the 3100s

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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #17 on: 27 June 2019, 14:33:56 »
Mercs apparently have more cash than they can burn in the 3100s

C-bill costs even ten years after the 3050s are a garbled mess that should never be taken seriously.  They are best used as "this is what this thing would have cost between 2900 and 3058 in places it was already available" and otherwise totally ignored.
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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #18 on: 27 June 2019, 14:51:17 »
Clan tech's gotta be somewhat expensive even during the Dark Age even ignoring c-bills as they're in the rules.
I would assume an average merc unit won't have Thor IIs. Cheap Clan tech, like those non-Omni Koshis, maybe. But something like Wolf's Dragoons or... uh, [insert well known high tier unit here].

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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #19 on: 27 June 2019, 15:11:44 »
Clan tech's gotta be somewhat expensive even during the Dark Age even ignoring c-bills as they're in the rules.

[citation needed]

Yes, I know, it follows logically if you start with the base assumption that "Better = more expensive".  I challenge that assumption.  The Foxes presumably have access to better facilities than a good number of IS factories, and it behooves them to sell cheap: there is no determined cost (or percentage of cost, or literally anything) suggesting that the Sea Foxes post-Jihad can't sell a modern Clan Heavy Omni for less than a high end IS Heavy to interested groups.

Demand should arguably shoot the cost up a bit, but nothing can substitute for the most important part of a merchant business: selling product.

We have absolutely no way to put an acurate price on modern equipment post-Jihad.  We have no way to determine cost to manufacture.  We have nothing to base any assumptions on.

In that absense, instead we have to work backward.  We know that there are several high end Clan Heavy (and even Assault!) designs in regular use with mercenary units.  That is true, we can't disregard it.  The goal then is to determine how and why.

The how is easy: Sea Foxes.

The why is also easy: the mercs bought them.

Which leads us to one of two conclusions: either mercenary units are thriving like they have never thrived before (we know this to be false at least as late as the early 3130s in the Republic) or the 'Mechs are within their reach even during slow working times.

This leads inescapably to the conclusion that Clan 'Mechs aren't actually nearly as expensive as the 'written' C-bill cost implies.

And that's a good thing. C-bill are garbage outside of the relatively narrow band I already described.

Otherwise by the rules a Mad Cat Mk. 4 is something line 300 million C-bills to an IS merc unit at the cheapest and that doesn't make any ****** sense since it's literally in TRO3145 Mercenaries.
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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #20 on: 27 June 2019, 15:28:28 »
I am completely ignoring written C-bill costs. I just figure that due to Clan tech being better, its demand and scarcity mean that it is more expensive than IS tech expecting rarest and newest IS tech (eg TSEMP cannons).
Spheroid nations are manufacturing the stuff in limited amounts evidently, otherwise more of their newest warmachines would be equipped with Clan tech. In many cases they're relying on Clan allies (eg Wolf-in-exile for Lyrans), or Sea Fox merchants (Capellans ordered Clan ER PPCs from Sea Foxes) to provide part of their used Clan tech or assist with it.
The Clans are smaller than Spheroid nations. How much stuff are they producing? I highly doubt they're producing Clan tech in sufficient numbers to make it cheaper than IS tech when sold to mercs.

I'm not saying it is expensive enough not to be available. I just figure that it is top of the line stuff for most part, so customers are reasonably well off.
A merc unit in the ass-end of the Inner Sphere will be using IntroTech or even retrotech. Call it a one-star unit.
A two-star unit has Star League-tech equivalent.
A three-star unit has roughly Jihad-era stuff. If they're lucky, they got some Clan tech, eg standard-tech Koshis.
A four-star unit sports newest of the Inner Sphere and maybe older stuff like Ullers but more advanced than cheapest Clan units available.
A five-star unit sports latest of the Inner Sphere that may be using Clan tech (eg Atlas III) along with high-end Clan equipment (Thor IIs).
Higher rated units will be rarer. Most mercs are no-names that no one never hears about and they never grow to be famous.

EDIT I'm assuming Clan tech can be split into "grades" or the like (Clan SRM vs Clan Improved Heavy Laser, the former is probably way simpler), and that stuff like targeting and tracking systems matter unlike in the rules. A unit sporting Succession Wars TTS vs latest Clan model is gonna be performing differently, and priced accordingly.
« Last Edit: 27 June 2019, 15:31:43 by Empyrus »

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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #21 on: 27 June 2019, 15:38:46 »
If the cost to manufacture is relatively low (which we can't prove one way or another), and the demand doesn't outstrip supply (which we have very little if any evidence to support except "The Foxes sell to everyone" which implies there's not a starvation of supply) then it benefits the Foxes to undercut less capable competition designs.

If it costs $X for the Foxes to make a 'Mech, and an IS 'Mech of similar but lesser capability is available locally for $Y, as long as Y is greater than X by any reasonable margin then it behooves the Foxes to sell their 'Mech locally at $Y-1 because even at a lower margin that's still money in hand.  Selling at $Y+Z because of "quality" is a great way to miss a sale.

This is something the Foxes are uniquely capable of doing thanks to their spacebornr infrastructure.  Imagine one of those car dealership ads except they can come to your front door, look at the prices you see and say "I can beat that, just sign here."  And then boom, Merc Unit A scores a Mad Cat Mk. 4 for less than trying to import a Rakshasa from the next Successor State over.
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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #22 on: 27 June 2019, 15:43:30 »
I want to say Anastasia Kerensky traded what was left of her Mangonel and a few other bits for a brand new Savage Wolf, I think it was in Wolf Hunters.

If Clan gear did not cost more across the board, than Chaos Campaign would not charge me more RPs to repair it- even a mixed tech design.

IMO the 'why' you skipped over Scotty is that mercs would be even more focused than the houses to make sure their equipment is the best capable on the battlefield.  What does it matter that I can buy a DefHes Defiance 3S and a Ronin Marauder 9M2 for the same cost as a Savage Wolf if I get crap on Galatea from the Republic- red tape for increased numbers, fees & taxes, more tracking by the RotS, etc.

Psst, ALL Fox designs are in 3145 Mercs, even their exclusives like Tiburon.  The Foxes also buy and sell Inner Sphere stuff.
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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #23 on: 27 June 2019, 16:53:08 »
If Clan gear did not cost more across the board, than Chaos Campaign would not charge me more RPs to repair it- even a mixed tech design.

This is a matter of balance and not of fluff cost.  Clantech is better, therefore it costs the player more to get it and maintain it. The same does not have to be true for units in fluff.

A desire to have the individually best equipment on the field does not explain how a mercenary group can afford that equipment. I think "Clan Sea Fox undercuts static prices like the ruthless merchants they're supposed to be" goes a lot longer on the way to explaining how there are multiple high end Clan 'Mechs apparently in common distribution among merc units.
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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #24 on: 27 June 2019, 17:46:53 »
C-bill costs even ten years after the 3050s are a garbled mess that should never be taken seriously.  They are best used as "this is what this thing would have cost between 2900 and 3058 in places it was already available" and otherwise totally ignored.

Oh for sure I’ve havent used cbills for anything since the 90s.

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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #25 on: 27 June 2019, 18:04:16 »
A five-star unit sports latest of the Inner Sphere that may be using Clan tech (eg Atlas III) along with high-end Clan equipment (Thor IIs).
High-End?

It is good but it is very conventional/tournament legal type of design.
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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #26 on: 27 June 2019, 18:05:46 »
It's also a 70 ton Clan Omnimech.  That would qualify it as a high-end machine.
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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #27 on: 27 June 2019, 18:08:07 »
It's also a 70 ton Clan Omnimech.  That would qualify it as a high-end machine.
Not for the Dark Age, it has nothing cutting edge.
An Mad Cat Mk IV with all of its cutting edge technologies is a better fit for the label high-end.
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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #28 on: 27 June 2019, 18:08:25 »
High-End?

It is good but it is very conventional/tournament legal type of design.
Clan-tech, relatively new (if we assume early to late Republic era), OmniMech, heavy.
Very definition of high-end. Especially when you consider that light and medium classes are far more common, and assault 'Mechs are relatively rare. And Clan tech can't be found at every corner unlike in MechWarrior games.

EDIT Didn't say "cutting edge" which is what Vulture IV or the Savage Wolf would be.

Not considering this from real-life POV, where the Thor II isn't particularly remarkable.

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Re: Mercenary Use of Thor IIs?
« Reply #29 on: 27 June 2019, 18:12:59 »
And Clan tech can't be found at every corner unlike in MechWarrior games.

This is exactly what I'm arguing.  It can.
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