Author Topic: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas  (Read 11236 times)

MechWarriorFox

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System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« on: 13 January 2020, 11:02:08 »
So, I've been looking at the Battletech ship design system and it is rather comprehensive. More so than I would believe.

Is there any way to have what is essentially a 'system monitor' style warship, where the KF drive isn't installed? Just asking because I'm kind of 'shopping' for shipbuilding ideas right now and Battletech's is one of the simpler and more intuitive ones I've seen so far.

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #1 on: 13 January 2020, 12:00:03 »
Warships have to have a KF Drive, its built right into the structure.

You have Dropships for inter-system travel & defense.

You have space stations for single point defense.

You have Jumpships w/ no Collars & extra Fighters for a mobile fleet yard.

If you want a WS that is mostly used for system defense then don't give it LFBs & restrict its movement to 1/2 or 2/3.

More than enough tonnage remains for weapons & armor.
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Ruger

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #2 on: 13 January 2020, 12:13:16 »
Pocket WarShips are as close as you can get with the official rules AFAIK.

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Frabby

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #3 on: 13 January 2020, 13:25:21 »
I think this Sarna article exhaustively covers the topic:
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Monitor_(naval_concept)
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MechWarriorFox

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #4 on: 13 January 2020, 14:38:25 »
I think this Sarna article exhaustively covers the topic:
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Monitor_(naval_concept)
Thank you. :) Too bad that it is locked behind paid software... :(

Frabby

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #5 on: 13 January 2020, 14:55:23 »
 ???  It is not. Sarna is a free wiki-style resource.
If you're seeing a barrier of some sort in this link, can you describe the problem?
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Maingunnery

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #6 on: 13 January 2020, 15:06:14 »
???  It is not. Sarna is a free wiki-style resource.
If you're seeing a barrier of some sort in this link, can you describe the problem?
He is talking about using the unofficial rules from Heavy Metal Aero, but in my opinion he is better off making PWS.
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Frabby

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #7 on: 13 January 2020, 15:48:53 »
<facepalm> Ok, I see that now. Move on, nothing to see here...  :-[

Though is essentially boils down to this: The Monitor rules assumed you can be take the KF drive out of the vessel and replace it with guns, armor, heat sinks.

The official LD ruling is that no, you can't, because that KF Drive structure happens to double as the ship's keel and even without the germanium-based KF Drive coils you'd have to install a similarly-sized steel or what-have-you scaffolding as a substitute structure, netting you very little for losing jump capability which could also be regarded as a crippling flaw in and of itself in what should otherwise be a strategic asset.
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MechWarriorFox

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #8 on: 13 January 2020, 16:08:53 »
<facepalm> Ok, I see that now. Move on, nothing to see here...  :-[

Though is essentially boils down to this: The Monitor rules assumed you can be take the KF drive out of the vessel and replace it with guns, armor, heat sinks.

The official LD ruling is that no, you can't, because that KF Drive structure happens to double as the ship's keel and even without the germanium-based KF Drive coils you'd have to install a similarly-sized steel or what-have-you scaffolding as a substitute structure, netting you very little for losing jump capability which could also be regarded as a crippling flaw in and of itself in what should otherwise be a strategic asset.
Oh... didn't know that.

Onion2112

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #9 on: 18 January 2020, 02:13:06 »
The 100K ton Castrum class dropships from the Republic could almost qualify as a monitor

Frabby

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #10 on: 18 January 2020, 04:26:37 »
It comes down to terminology.

"Monitor", as a role, can be filled by a variety of vessels. The Castrum is indeed a prime example, but many of the so-called "Pocket WarShip" DropShips are also good candidates. There are even some Small Craft that qualify. And some WarShips, too, even with their KF drive cores. (I like to ridicule any unit with less than 4 MP on general principle and find those with less than 3 MP generally useless, at least on the ground; I realize that WarShips have very different movement rules and that their thrust rating doesn't directly compare to ground MP, but still...)

"Monitor" as a naval design concept in BattleTech specifically refers to a WarShip, built under WarShip construction rules, but with the assumption that the KF drive core is a single cohesive component that can be pulled from the ship and replaced by other systems that have more tactical combat value. That assumption and any and all associated apocryphal or outright non-canon/fanon rules were shot down by Herb with Line Developer hat on.
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RifleMech

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #11 on: 18 January 2020, 09:27:18 »
It would be nice if KF Drives could trade range for weight. Then Monitors could have the bare minimum of a jump drive but still have more tonnage for weapons. Unfortunately the only jump drives that do that are on primitive jump ships. Plus they have a minimum jump distance which drives the weight up so there doesn't seem to be any weight savings so there's no reason to use them.:(

dgorsman

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #12 on: 18 January 2020, 12:00:06 »
Does monitor stuff still fall under the old forum rules of "thou shall not discuss, or at best most carefully, under pain of moderator wrath"?  I remember it being a topic that can get rather excited.
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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #13 on: 18 January 2020, 12:14:17 »
Does monitor stuff still fall under the old forum rules of "thou shall not discuss, or at best most carefully, under pain of moderator wrath"?  I remember it being a topic that can get rather excited.
It is a lot more relaxed now because the old monitor concept has been shot in the head and thrown into a ditch.
The need for such rules has also been undermined as the Casper Drones have been revealed to be just drone controlled WarShips, and we got PWS now which fill up that niche now.   
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Daryk

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #14 on: 18 January 2020, 12:59:12 »
Also Space Stations... Station Keeping drives are incredibly powerful as far as in system mobility.  Just not for tactical maneuvering.

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #15 on: 18 January 2020, 20:20:20 »
It would be nice if KF Drives could trade range for weight. Then Monitors could have the bare minimum of a jump drive but still have more tonnage for weapons. Unfortunately the only jump drives that do that are on primitive jump ships. Plus they have a minimum jump distance which drives the weight up so there doesn't seem to be any weight savings so there's no reason to use them.:(
there are rules for making primitive jumpships. these are basically compact core ships but their KF drives are slightly smaller % of the mass, and they can only jump 15ly. they also can't use dropship collars. they usually have transit drives since they don't have collars.

the earliest warships were basically such craft with some guns, seems to me that you could probably use the more primitive KF drive tech to save some resources over a full up warship if meant for a defensive ship. use a corvette size for further savings, then give them plenty of fighter and smallcraft bays to give them not only some options for patrolling, but also some useful punch against bigger targets.

as usual though the problem is "if you can build an upgunned primtive jumpship, you can build a full up warship, just in fewer numbers", and the full on warship is more useful in every role but basic patrolling.

so assault dropships and PWS dropships end up filling the role instead.
« Last Edit: 18 January 2020, 20:23:22 by glitterboy2098 »

Atarlost

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #16 on: 20 January 2020, 01:58:34 »
The real advantages of warship monitors should be that you don't need a working compact KF core extruder, that you don't need germanium, and that some idiot who thinks he's the second coming of Douglas MacArthur can't strip defenses from your shipyard systems.  The first may occur to a point during the 2SW technological decline where warships could no longer be built, but monitors could be.  The second always applies but is a false economy for everyone but Comstar.  The third, though?  A warship with the nonfunctional component (KF Drive) quirk is cheap at twice the price if your concern is preserving the shipyards against the vagaries of politics. 

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #17 on: 20 January 2020, 05:37:47 »
All monitors really do is increase the number of nukes necessary to destroy a target.

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #18 on: 20 January 2020, 07:19:19 »
Is there any way to have what is essentially a 'system monitor' style warship, where the KF drive isn't installed? Just asking because I'm kind of 'shopping' for shipbuilding ideas right now and Battletech's is one of the simpler and more intuitive ones I've seen so far.
Well, what did you look into already? BattleTech is very geared towards its own background, so it adapts not so well into other backgrounds.
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RifleMech

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #19 on: 20 January 2020, 11:12:07 »
there are rules for making primitive jumpships. these are basically compact core ships but their KF drives are slightly smaller % of the mass, and they can only jump 15ly. they also can't use dropship collars. they usually have transit drives since they don't have collars.

the earliest warships were basically such craft with some guns, seems to me that you could probably use the more primitive KF drive tech to save some resources over a full up warship if meant for a defensive ship. use a corvette size for further savings, then give them plenty of fighter and smallcraft bays to give them not only some options for patrolling, but also some useful punch against bigger targets.

as usual though the problem is "if you can build an upgunned primtive jumpship, you can build a full up warship, just in fewer numbers", and the full on warship is more useful in every role but basic patrolling.

so assault dropships and PWS dropships end up filling the role instead.


Yes, thank you. I know there's primitive jumpships. The problem is the weight of their KF Drive. A standard Warship KF Drive weighs WarShip weight x .4525. A primitive jumpships KF Drive weighs 5% + 3% per light-year (with a minimum of 15).

So for a 1,000,000 warships the drive would weigh
Standard Warship 452,500 tons
Primitive Warship 500,000 tons

That's just the KF Drive. I haven't done the math yet on the rest of the ships. So it is possible to build a Primitive Warship but it'd be like the original USS Iowa BB-4 or BB-51 compared to the USS Iowa BB-61. Now if that 15 light year minimum wasn't there the KF drive would only weigh 50,000 tons. That'd make it more attractive as there's a lot more weight for weapons.


The real advantages of warship monitors should be that you don't need a working compact KF core extruder, that you don't need germanium, and that some idiot who thinks he's the second coming of Douglas MacArthur can't strip defenses from your shipyard systems.  The first may occur to a point during the 2SW technological decline where warships could no longer be built, but monitors could be.  The second always applies but is a false economy for everyone but Comstar.  The third, though?  A warship with the nonfunctional component (KF Drive) quirk is cheap at twice the price if your concern is preserving the shipyards against the vagaries of politics. 



That kind of forgets that Monitors are still Warships. They still have everything else Warships would have. They're just smaller with bigger guns than other warships and are usually designed for coastal or river warfare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monitor_(warship)

That means they're not going to be built everywhere. They can go everywhere though. It just takes a long time to get there and the voyage can be very dangerous. For example, the Cerberus was built in England and went to Australia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMVS_Cerberus


In BT's case the universe requires a KF-Drive. So you're back to the TRO:2750 Bug-Eye with the Light Naval PPC. Under new rules I think the best is a NL-35. The next legal option is the Pocket Warship. Unless of course the minimum jump requirement were to be waved or reduced. Then a Monitor could be built and slowly moved to its deployment location. Or allow Dropships to mount Naval Weapons.

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #20 on: 20 January 2020, 19:14:26 »
That kind of forgets that Monitors are still Warships. They still have everything else Warships would have. They're just smaller with bigger guns than other warships and are usually designed for coastal or river warfare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monitor_(warship)

That means they're not going to be built everywhere. They can go everywhere though. It just takes a long time to get there and the voyage can be very dangerous. For example, the Cerberus was built in England and went to Australia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMVS_Cerberus


In BT's case the universe requires a KF-Drive. So you're back to the TRO:2750 Bug-Eye with the Light Naval PPC. Under new rules I think the best is a NL-35. The next legal option is the Pocket Warship. Unless of course the minimum jump requirement were to be waved or reduced. Then a Monitor could be built and slowly moved to its deployment location. Or allow Dropships to mount Naval Weapons.

Monitors in SF parlance usually refers to non-FTL capable ships.  More analogous to the original U.S.S. Monitor and other ships of her class, which could operate in coastal waters but was demonstrably not seaworthy. 

RifleMech

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #21 on: 21 January 2020, 04:45:55 »
Monitors in SF parlance usually refers to non-FTL capable ships.  More analogous to the original U.S.S. Monitor and other ships of her class, which could operate in coastal waters but was demonstrably not seaworthy. 

Battletech isn't most SF though. In BT, a non FTL ship would be a Dropship. And again, most monitors are designed for coastal or river duties and aren't suited to crossing oceans. However it can be done, slowly, and with modifications and great risk.  It isn't a voyage one would undertake on a whim.

In BT terms, the monitor would be slow, traveling from one uninhabited system to another, hoping they'd make it to an inhabited system where they could refuel and resupply before continuing on to their destination. And during the voyage they'd be hoping they didn't breakdown as they'd be screwed since they're traveling off the standard shipping lanes and couldn't expect help

Now a ship that can't go from system to system would be the Dropship. And Dropships with full Naval weaponry is what most people think about when they want a Monitor. Personally, I don't see any technical reason why Dropships couldn't carry naval weaponry. I think it's an arbitrary decision to keep squadrons of dropships from destroying warship fleets. I'm also okay with that. I don't think Monitors (warship or dropship) would be as plentiful or as powerful as people think. They're not super McKennas. They'd really be more the Pocket Warship dropships, whether they can jump or not.



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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #22 on: 21 January 2020, 07:47:22 »
The fan book the OP really wants, is AFFC Navy.  Very well written, with rules for Monitors.

Let me know if you want a copy.I

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #23 on: 21 January 2020, 10:39:57 »
In the current context, 'monitor' would suggest something that is limited to orbit/near orbit.  There isn't much justification for that kind of limit in BattleTech.
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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #24 on: 21 January 2020, 18:35:16 »
*snip*

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #25 on: 21 January 2020, 19:15:15 »
Now a ship that can't go from system to system would be the Dropship. And Dropships with full Naval weaponry is what most people think about when they want a Monitor. Personally, I don't see any technical reason why Dropships couldn't carry naval weaponry. I think it's an arbitrary decision to keep squadrons of dropships from destroying warship fleets. I'm also okay with that. I don't think Monitors (warship or dropship) would be as plentiful or as powerful as people think. They're not super McKennas. They'd really be more the Pocket Warship dropships, whether they can jump or not.

I'm not sure what's so hard for you to grasp about making a ship just like a warship but with the nonfunctional (jumpdrive) quirk and the line item C-bill (or K-bill, but the Clans wouldn't have any reason to build them) price for the FTL core discounted by the difference between the price of germanium and the price of structural steel. 

Monitors are political.  The whole point is that they can't FTL travel AT ALL.  If it has a drop collar and can be carried by a jumpship it can be appropriated by the federal government or make the neighbors nervous.  A warship with the nonfunctional (jumpdrive) quirk can be built as a militia unit that cannot be usefully nationalized because it can never leave the shipyard system where it was built.  Shipyard systems, especially according to the companies that operate shipyards, merit such defensive investment.  Or alternately, a warship with the nonfunctional (jumpdrive) quirk can be built by Comstar at the surviving shipyards in the Sol system and they can invite their neighbors to send representatives to see that the keel is made of steel and has none of the coolant pipes or power couplings that a functional jump core would have and thus cannot possibly be used to invade them and that they shouldn't worry about Comstar's neutrality. 

When you're worried about your overlord stealing your defenses or the House Lords questioning your neutrality if you have mobile forces jumpships, even permitted capital weapons and unlimited armor thickness and the same price multiplier as warships, are no substitute for a warship with the nonfunctional (jumpdrive) quirk. 

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #26 on: 22 January 2020, 04:21:43 »
I'm not sure what's so hard for you to grasp about making a ship just like a warship but with the nonfunctional (jumpdrive) quirk and the line item C-bill (or K-bill, but the Clans wouldn't have any reason to build them) price for the FTL core discounted by the difference between the price of germanium and the price of structural steel. 

Monitors are political.  The whole point is that they can't FTL travel AT ALL.  If it has a drop collar and can be carried by a jumpship it can be appropriated by the federal government or make the neighbors nervous.  A warship with the nonfunctional (jumpdrive) quirk can be built as a militia unit that cannot be usefully nationalized because it can never leave the shipyard system where it was built.  Shipyard systems, especially according to the companies that operate shipyards, merit such defensive investment.  Or alternately, a warship with the nonfunctional (jumpdrive) quirk can be built by Comstar at the surviving shipyards in the Sol system and they can invite their neighbors to send representatives to see that the keel is made of steel and has none of the coolant pipes or power couplings that a functional jump core would have and thus cannot possibly be used to invade them and that they shouldn't worry about Comstar's neutrality. 

When you're worried about your overlord stealing your defenses or the House Lords questioning your neutrality if you have mobile forces jumpships, even permitted capital weapons and unlimited armor thickness and the same price multiplier as warships, are no substitute for a warship with the nonfunctional (jumpdrive) quirk.

I grasp it just fine. I just don't see the point. You still have a KF Drive. It just doesn't work. Which means it's stuck in the system its made until its fixed or replaced. Which only helps the systems with shipyards.

Political or not, you can't just dock with another Warship like you can a Dropship and have it jump. KF Drives don't like operating in the presence of other KF Drives. Bad things happen. Even if you could, you just limited the size of the Warship to 100,000 tons max. Plus anything can be requisitioned by the House Lord. Including Warships. If the KF Drive doesn't work, the House Lord would just strip the Warship for parts, along with the shipyard that built it. Not that most militia can afford to build a shipyard and then a warship. Even if they could I doubt they'd do so. Having a Warship would definitely exceed the size of military the local lord could have. It'd be a pretty swift way of getting the House Lord's attention and saying, "Come squash me and take me stuff." Even worse warships attract nukes. Something no planetary lord wants in their neighborhood.

As for Comstar, that scenario makes no sense. If a Monitor can be transported it is still a threat to the other houses. Plus Comstar just let on that they can build warships. Why advertise that capability?

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #27 on: 23 January 2020, 20:45:08 »
What about the CCS Ancestral Home?  She was essentially a monitor after her KF drive was crippled.  The Coyotes heavily upgraded her with armour and weapons.  By extrapolation, if you can convert a existing warship into a 'monitor', you can build one.  The main question is whether you spend the C-Bills on a fixed battlestation or a monitor that is one step away from being a warship.  Now, if you are the rich Terran Hegemony or the Federated Commonwealth, you can load up on ships of this sort to protect fixed sites.  Honestly, it does not seem logical to do otherwise.

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #28 on: 23 January 2020, 20:50:22 »
Space stations aren't "fixed".  A tenth of a G is extremely handy for positioning things outside of combat.

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Re: System Monitor style Warships and random ideas
« Reply #29 on: 24 January 2020, 02:20:47 »
What about the CCS Ancestral Home?  She was essentially a monitor after her KF drive was crippled.  The Coyotes heavily upgraded her with armour and weapons.  By extrapolation, if you can convert a existing warship into a 'monitor', you can build one.  The main question is whether you spend the C-Bills on a fixed battlestation or a monitor that is one step away from being a warship.  Now, if you are the rich Terran Hegemony or the Federated Commonwealth, you can load up on ships of this sort to protect fixed sites.  Honestly, it does not seem logical to do otherwise.

My take on the "Home" was that the tonnage for weapons came from reduced Cargo since she wasn't going to be traveling anywhere to support an invasion fleet.

The KF Drive was still there, just damaged beyond repair.

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