Meant for the last war -- pre-Clan Invasion designs

[abou]

Something I have thought about recently has been those 'mechs from TRO 3050 that were meant for the "last war", so to speak. Those designs that would have excelled in a 5th Succession War where the Clans never arrived, and where the gradual evolution and application of tech would have been more forgiving. Obviously, we see rapid changes in design philosophy by 3055 and 3058 with the expanded use of gauss rifles -- even double gauss rifles on a design. Considering how many of the writers had military experience, the idea that arms manufacturers would make imperfect designs is a nice touch for the universe, and I wanted to explore the idea.

I think one of the more obvious to me is the Axman -- either the close range brawler 1N or the skirmisher 2N (a better Catapult or Crusader) -- and could easily tear up most 'mechs on the battlefield in a pre-Clan era. Another would be the Wolf Trap, which is overall poorly regarded, but is just a smaller Centurion. You have the under-gunned Mauler, but I can't help thinking it would be a menace against fast-moving light 'mechs and a nightmare for aerospace fighters.

What other examples are there that come to mind? And not just 'mechs: I meant for vehicles and aerospace fighters as well.

[Formerly Wu]

I find the Wolf Trap to be the poster child for "meant for the last war," since TRO 3050U notes it was specifically designed to counter the Wolfhound in a theoretical 5SW but didn't debut until almost 2 years into the Clan Invasion. It's the only 'mech in TRO 3050 that had no variants produced prior to the invasion, making it a true holdover of a bygone era.

On a personal note, I hate the name, not only because it's awkward and its original name of Tora is much better, but also because it feels like it confuses its backstory. "We need to rename this 'mech to reduce friction with the Federated Commonwealth. I know, let's give it a name that underlines how it was designed to fight one of their signature 'mechs!"

[OatsAndHall]

The increased availability of the Marauder II is certainly note-worthy in a 5th Succession War scenario. Assuming the Dragoons would still authorize wide-spread production without the threat of the Clans.

[Daryk]

The Marauder II is good enough to be pretty much an "any" war design... ;)

[Minemech]

 The Cicada upgrade makes surprising sense within the mindset of the 3rd, though not so much the Fourth.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Cataphract and Caesar both feel like mechs built to fight the next Succession War.

[Sabelkatten]

The Cataphract and Caesar both feel like mechs built to fight the next Succession War.

...?

The Caesar is one of the batter heavies against clanners. GR+ERPPC to fight mechs at range, MPLs to counter BA.

The Axeman, thought... Or even later designs like the Hammer or Thunderer - "Let's spend the whole fight trying to get into range!"

[Minemech]

...?

The Caesar is one of the batter heavies against clanners. GR+ERPPC to fight mechs at range, MPLs to counter BA.

The Axeman, thought... Or even later designs like the Hammer or Thunderer - "Let's spend the whole fight trying to get into range!"

The Axman was more a product of a too rich FedCom than of anything else. Another example was their just plain terrible Jagermech upgrade. These products were not made on the basis of the last war, they were made because the FedCom was lucrative and wanted to arm its mechs to show it. Everyone had some bad upgrades, but some of the FedCom ones really stood out. The Javelin cannot be blamed on anything.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

...?

The Caesar is one of the batter heavies against clanners. GR+ERPPC to fight mechs at range, MPLs to counter BA.

The Caesar is a slow mech with paper-thin armor and too many heatsinks.  It was absolutely designed to fight against IS opponents who wouldn't be able to close with it and wouldn't be able to match its range.  Not to fight Clan mechs that were faster, better armored, and able to outrange it.

[OatsAndHall]

The Caesar is a slow mech with paper-thin armor and too many heatsinks.  It was absolutely designed to fight against IS opponents who wouldn't be able to close with it and wouldn't be able to match its range.  Not to fight Clan mechs that were faster, better armored, and able to outrange it.

I agree, it's not an optimal mech against the Clans. But, to be fair, very few IS designs hold their own against Clan tech. I like the Caesar in IS-only matches though; it's BV is reasonable and the one-two punch of the ER PPC and the Gauss make it a solid over-watch/sniper.

[Charistoph]

The Caesar is a slow mech with paper-thin armor and too many heatsinks.  It was absolutely designed to fight against IS opponents who wouldn't be able to close with it and wouldn't be able to match its range.  Not to fight Clan mechs that were faster, better armored, and able to outrange it.

I didn't know the average and standard speed for Heavies is considered "slow".  You must hate how "slow" the Marauder, Warhammer, Grasshopper, etc, are.

While they are slow when compared to Summoners, Hellbringers, and Timber Wolves ( but first, show me an Inner Sphere Heavy above 65 tons moving as fast as they are made by a House prior to 3050), I wouldn't say having an ER PPC and Gauss Rifle is being "outranged" when they match the same range of their Clan counter-parts.

Still with an introduction date of 3049, of course its original design was not to fight Clans.  It's disingenuous to think otherwise.  It would be like expecting Teddy Roosevelt to have planned for fighting tanks as he charged up San Juan Hill.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I didn't know the average and standard speed for Heavies is considered "slow".  You must hate how "slow" the Marauder, Warhammer, Grasshopper, etc, are.

Any IS heavy mech that moves 4/6 while using an XL engine counts as slow.  Especially if it's only got 15 points of armor in the side torsos.

While they are slow when compared to Summoners, Hellbringers, and Timber Wolves ( but first, show me an Inner Sphere Heavy above 65 tons moving as fast as they are made by a House prior to 3050), I wouldn't say having an ER PPC and Gauss Rifle is being "outranged" when they match the same range of their Clan counter-parts.

Still with an introduction date of 3049, of course its original design was not to fight Clans.  It's disingenuous to think otherwise.  It would be like expecting Teddy Roosevelt to have planned for fighting tanks as he charged up San Juan Hill.

Dude, the whole point of this thread is about which mechs from 3050 were obviously designed to fight the 5th Succession War instead of the Clans.  And while the ER PPC and GR can match the range of their Clan counterparts, most Clan mechs that are geared to fight at similar range are able to outgun it.

[Daryk]

The upgraded Fire Javelin is a great 'mech regardless of tech level.  That many Medium Lasers (STILL the most efficient weapon, even in the latest eras) plus a decently fast movement rate and enough armor to survive at least one bad round of counter fire just WORKS.

[Charistoph]

Any IS heavy mech that moves 4/6 while using an XL engine counts as slow.  Especially if it's only got 15 points of armor in the side torsos.

For a direct Fire Support unit, it's not too bad.  It's not going to be rushing to the front, and its Armor doesn't really promote it doing that.  Still you're complaining about Armor when the issue was calling it "slow".  It's not moving like a Stalker 4P, and moves as fast as other direct Fire Support units like the Warhammer and Marauder, has 1/2 ton more than the same weight WHM-6R, and only one ton less than the MAD-3R.  While placement could be better, that's often said for these two as well.  No one is expecting them to be Orions.

Dude, the whole point of this thread is about which mechs from 3050 were obviously designed to fight the 5th Succession War instead of the Clans.  And while the ER PPC and GR can match the range of their Clan counterparts, most Clan mechs that are geared to fight at similar range are able to outgun it.

Just saying that pointing out that it isn't prepared for the Clan Wars (and only that) instead of looking at what would have been the 5th SW is what you're doing, still.

[abou]

Thanks for the input, guys. It has given me some things to think about in how to interpret designs and their choices.

I think the Caesar is an interesting example. I have never used it, but the light armor kind of makes it similar to the Hellbringer. It may have punch, but one round of combat against anything that can shoot more than a medium laser would be ill-advised.

[glitterboy2098]

The Cicada upgrade makes surprising sense within the mindset of the 3rd, though not so much the Fourth.

the cicada i think was definately a "5th succession war" design.. its just one that was hamstrung by the limited resources the Capellans had after the 4th war. specifically, i'm talking about the CDA-3M, which was attempting to turn the oversized recon mech into something a little closer to a medium cavalry mech. which the capellans probably wouldn't have bothered with, had said design not been one of the few that they could still build in the 3040's. it took the earlier attempt at the CDA-3C (which tried something similar, but failed because of the lack of XL engines) and used the recovered SL-tech to make it work. then after the clans hit, they went through and reworked the -3M into the even better CDA-3F. odds are they were already working on a 'proto -3F', and the clan front info just helped them to define what exactly they should put on it.

[Starfury]

Wolfhound WLF-2
Wolf Trap
Centurion 9A
Enforcer 5D
Orion 1M
All of the Phoenix Hawk variants
Mauler
Hatamoto-Chi
Raven
Valkyrie
Commando
Warhammer
Archer
Crusader 5M and 5S. The 4D and 4Ks not so much
Marauder

[glitterboy2098]

The Cicada upgrade makes surprising sense within the mindset of the 3rd, though not so much the Fourth.

the cicada upgrades for 3050 make sense as a "whats a simple redesign to give it more usefulness" (XLengine and adding the UAC5) then "ok we need a clean sheet redesign leveraging everything we have" (the CDA-3F  with the endo, Ferro, XL, JJs, ERPPC..)