BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => General BattleTech Discussion => Topic started by: Colt Ward on 03 October 2018, 11:42:04
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A discussion on another thread got me wondering- I know several ways- but what methods do you use to keep PCs & PC groups from becoming too powerful (aka Wolf Dragoons 2.0- Bigger, Badder, Better!)?
I am not looking to discuss arbitrary solutions- Your damaged Devastator filled with Clan tech (if its a Clan engine, heat sinks and weapons, is it really that IS machine?) cannot be repaired, too much long term structural damage causing microfractures through the entire frame/skeleton. Looks like your elite pilot with 5 edge points and 10 SPAs gets to sit in the old Urbanmech your mercs keep for apprentice/newbie training.
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Make them face even odds and or lose some battles. Now they are the ones getting salvaged by the enemy!
And do not give them all the trinkets to start with.
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I would make the universe react to them. You don't get to be the new Wolfs Dragoons without pissing someone off. Have some insulted noble pull strings to drop an RCT on them. If they cause enough problems for the Word, then maybe a Secret Division is sent to eliminate the threat. Especially in the Chaos March, their are a lot of powers who can destroy a mercenary unit, no matter how large. Just make sure that your reaction is based on what the players have done, don't drop a Ghost Bear Galaxy on them if they never interacted.
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The mercenary market is still a market. Any reason why a highly skilled and successful mechwarrior should stay with your unit, if he got an offer from a prestigious unit? Yes, you trained him and gave him a mech, when noone did. But now?
And why should a house military leave you with unexpected high valued salvage, when they need it for themselves? Especially rare tech? Ok, they will not rob it, but pay only minimum value. And only for the better of mankind. ;)
If your unit is highly successful it will make enemies. And some enemies have money to spend on headhunters - or more subtile for some tragic accident in your hangar.
There are so many ways - you do not need to fall back on even stronger enemies in the field. But be careful not to frustrate your players, when confronting them with realitites.
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Enforce some of the more draconian rules about injuries and disabilities adding up over time? Unless that is the luckiest SOB to draw breath, you don't rack up multiple SPAs without plenty of scars. All the buffs from those SPAs start to get nerfed or at least made more niche when the pilot's hand shakes from nerve damage, nearly blind in one eye from the time a PPC past right next to their cockpit after the canopy was blown out, and between the pain from residual shrapnel and PTSD induced nightmares, they haven't had a good night's sleep in 5 years.
Make them face even odds and or lose some battles. Now they are the ones getting salvaged by the enemy!
Even odds... or worse. They have annoyed the Master. They are now the 13th Shadow Division's "hobby."
Or a bit less extreme, give them an enemy that is somewhat beyond their reach, who isn't trying to outright destroy them, but just wants to screw with them. Depending on the era, they piss of some Precentor in ROM. Some people have a bonsai tree on their desk, this fellow likes to screw with the PCs. Procurement encounters a surprising number of SNAFUs like NAPA sent you parts to fix a GM 370 fusion engine, when you ordered parts for a GM 375, thus sidelining mechs at random. Or maybe fudging force estimates sent by your employer. A medium Binary becomes at Nova Binary, or a heavy Binary.
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Avoid IC solutions to an OOC problem.
Talk to the players. Get their opinion on how things are going. Express how you feel about stuff. Work together.
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Are they mercs? Because uber-powerful mercs have one enemy above all others to face, an insurmountable enemy that can fell even the greatest Mechwarriors available for hire.
...Peace.
See, mercs rely on war to get by, right? No war, no work. No work, no money. No money, things get rough. Make times rough- there's just not much work out there for the players right now. It might not even be actual 'peace'- war may be raging, but there's just no cut of the action for THEM. Maybe they've gained a bad reputation due to some slander being thrown around (it doesn't have to be TRUE, after all!). There's always WORK, but minor little raids and such won't really pay your uber-l33t team's bills for long.
Sure, peaceful vacations and minor raids won't use up things like ammo or replacement armor plating at the rate outright warfare will, so it's not as bad as it COULD be, but eventually this stuff starts to add up- or more accurately, it subtracts too much. Your people still need to be paid. Your supplies like food and such still have to be maintained, all that fun stuff. Eventually, your guys are going to hit a point where tough calls have to be made. And THAT, my dear GM, is where you get to sit back, open a Coke, and laugh yourself silly (privately), and watch the fun.
It's time for your players to make ends meet by finding where to cut back. Those super-tricked out Mechs they're so happy about, that win every game without a thought? Time to figure out which ones you can't afford anymore. The Fortress-class Dropship you plan your LZs around? That'd fetch a few months' worth of operating funds, at least. The infantry company? Sorry guys...
Really, this isn't a bad idea for a game to begin with- brew up a roster they can't afford, and make the players cut their own throats, see what they're willing to give up from the toy chest to pare down to operating status. The players are going to learn an awful lot about themselves and each other when it comes to figuring out whether to keep a Centurion and a Clint running instead of a Stalker, for example... >:D
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Are they mercs? Because uber-powerful mercs have one enemy above all others to face, an insurmountable enemy that can fell even the greatest Mechwarriors available for hire.
...Peace.
See, mercs rely on war to get by, right? No war, no work. No work, no money. No money, things get rough. Make times rough- there's just not much work out there for the players right now. It might not even be actual 'peace'- war may be raging, but there's just no cut of the action for THEM. Maybe they've gained a bad reputation due to some slander being thrown around (it doesn't have to be TRUE, after all!). There's always WORK, but minor little raids and such won't really pay your uber-l33t team's bills for long.
Sure, peaceful vacations and minor raids won't use up things like ammo or replacement armor plating at the rate outright warfare will, so it's not as bad as it COULD be, but eventually this stuff starts to add up- or more accurately, it subtracts too much. Your people still need to be paid. Your supplies like food and such still have to be maintained, all that fun stuff. Eventually, your guys are going to hit a point where tough calls have to be made. And THAT, my dear GM, is where you get to sit back, open a Coke, and laugh yourself silly (privately), and watch the fun.
It's time for your players to make ends meet by finding where to cut back. Those super-tricked out Mechs they're so happy about, that win every game without a thought? Time to figure out which ones you can't afford anymore. The Fortress-class Dropship you plan your LZs around? That'd fetch a few months' worth of operating funds, at least. The infantry company? Sorry guys...
Really, this isn't a bad idea for a game to begin with- brew up a roster they can't afford, and make the players cut their own throats, see what they're willing to give up from the toy chest to pare down to operating status. The players are going to learn an awful lot about themselves and each other when it comes to figuring out whether to keep a Centurion and a Clint running instead of a Stalker, for example... >:D
You're evil.
Avoid IC solutions to an OOC problem.
Talk to the players. Get their opinion on how things are going. Express how you feel about stuff. Work together.
You're smart.
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While I agree with the general sense that the PCs should suffer setbacks, it shouldn't be in a way that feels like capriciously screwing them over "just 'cuz". People like to overcome challenges and get a sense of progression, to feel more powerful as time goes by. No one wants to see all that hard work scrounging up Clan tech, crossing your fingers on refit rolls, etc. all flushed down the drain just because the GM wants to beat up on their players, especially if it's some off the battlefield reason where they might have little impact on its resolution (assuming you aren't using AToW to role play out of cockpit).
VensersRevenge brings up a good way to organically work in a challenge. Someone I know who studies military history often says "threat evokes response". Make it clear to the players that they're drawing unsavory attention. Every time they hit the field, they're going to be risking their equipment on opposition which is just as well equipped and trained as they are. A crack unit successfully fighting off a Clan attack during the Invasion might be subject to some across the border raids by Clanners during the truce looking to test their mettle. A successful raiding party against the Blakists during the Jihad is going to find itself being hunted from the shadows pretty quickly. And once they do run into that opposition, the PCs should always be presented with a couple of options. They could try the slugging it out, but runs the high risk of pilot death or permanent equipment loss. But the option of running means they might take a reputation hit and still lose at least a mech or two. Forcing them to run away from multiple engagements would be almost as bad as slugging it out, because now they aren't fulfilling contracts (if they're mercs), not getting salvage to sell, etc. Morale starts sinking, you can't make payroll or pay for repairs, and things start falling apart. It's nerfing the players indirectly, but still as a consequence of their own decisions.
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Theirs always a couple nukes or biological weapons or even a Warship.
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Don't you hate it when you can't find the meme you're looking for?
2 aliens are looking at a screen with Superman.
1. A Kryptonian? Oh great.
2. It gets worse. Green Lanterns. Plural.
1. We're going to have to procede very carefully.
2. Or we could just leave.
With the caption "Time to Retire the Party."
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I take a different tact and have limited campaigns - a conflict on a specific planet with an operation of limited scope and shelving the unit after the objectives are met
If they’re not willing to start over and you don’t want them to be their own superpower, they need to be culled somehow without it seeming like a contrived injustice
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- use forces and scenarios against them that don't generate a lot of salvage for whatever reason (fanatical self-destructing foes, use inferno rounds with your mechs with no CASE and don't care about the heat, ditto for other ammo stuff, use more vehicles against them that won't just bail out if they become an armored pillbox).
- injuries
- use peacetime maintenance costs and other maintenance costs to keep the equipment creep down too much
- artillery (units are totally destroyed if CT destroyed AOE)
- air strikes (see artillery)
- re-pod enemy machines appropriately for a given scenario (seriously; I know so many GMs that will just randomize a force and have the most ridiculous Omni-configs for say.. an urban fight)
- enemies - the more people they crush on the way up, the more people will want revenge (whether it's a "You killed my father!" duel scenario, or a "You ruined my ambitions to break away from the Lyran Commonwealth!") Both big and small enemies can be crafty in how they gain their vengeance. It could be guerilla attacks or sabotage, or it could be full invasions.
- go for the core! A nasty and yet effective way to kill a machine is to core it - with a good gunnery skill, TC and heavy weapons at close range, this can be done easier than one might think. Can't rebuild it then, and a called shot using TC like this isn't out of character for a boss npc... and incidentally, doesn't kill the PC either.
Alternatively... embrace the madness. If your players WANT the most powerful unit, then go with it. We're here to have fun after all. Sometimes, it's entertaining to see what can be done.
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You're evil.
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/rwby/images/9/92/Sweet_Summer_Child.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170612235705)
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While I agree with the general sense that the PCs should suffer setbacks, it shouldn't be in a way that feels like capriciously screwing them over "just 'cuz". People like to overcome challenges and get a sense of progression, to feel more powerful as time goes by. No one wants to see all that hard work scrounging up Clan tech, crossing your fingers on refit rolls, etc. all flushed down the drain just because the GM wants to beat up on their players, especially if it's some off the battlefield reason where they might have little impact on its resolution (assuming you aren't using AToW to role play out of cockpit).
VensersRevenge brings up a good way to organically work in a challenge. Someone I know who studies military history often says "threat evokes response". Make it clear to the players that they're drawing unsavory attention. Every time they hit the field, they're going to be risking their equipment on opposition which is just as well equipped and trained as they are. A crack unit successfully fighting off a Clan attack during the Invasion might be subject to some across the border raids by Clanners during the truce looking to test their mettle. A successful raiding party against the Blakists during the Jihad is going to find itself being hunted from the shadows pretty quickly. And once they do run into that opposition, the PCs should always be presented with a couple of options. They could try the slugging it out, but runs the high risk of pilot death or permanent equipment loss. But the option of running means they might take a reputation hit and still lose at least a mech or two. Forcing them to run away from multiple engagements would be almost as bad as slugging it out, because now they aren't fulfilling contracts (if they're mercs), not getting salvage to sell, etc. Morale starts sinking, you can't make payroll or pay for repairs, and things start falling apart. It's nerfing the players indirectly, but still as a consequence of their own decisions.
And make sure it's clearly a result of your players actions. Your players have to be able to tell that their actions are what caused the response. If they feel like it's GM fiat, things are only going to get worse.
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Paul, I agree with what you said- its always important to set expectations. This was more with a how have those expectations been met by others.
While I agree with the general sense that the PCs should suffer setbacks, it shouldn't be in a way that feels like capriciously screwing them over "just 'cuz". People like to overcome challenges and get a sense of progression, to feel more powerful as time goes by. No one wants to see all that hard work scrounging up Clan tech, crossing your fingers on refit rolls, etc. all flushed down the drain just because the GM wants to beat up on their players, especially if it's some off the battlefield reason where they might have little impact on its resolution (assuming you aren't using AToW to role play out of cockpit).
Which is why I was trying to rule out arbitrary responses. Early for my mercs I set up a contract w/scenario that involved creating a betrayal to establish a enemy, if they survived. They were hired guns to help a minor noble capture a convoy of finished mechs on the way to the drop port. The PCs were already a security-conscious/paranoid group coming from a family background of merc work, so the guy playing the employer's forces did not get to set up as much to stab them in the back as possible- they got really lucky capturing the convoy & driving off the defenders. So the PCs did not end up with as much damage or even crippled mechs when the guy playing the employer's force kicked off the betrayal. They took more damage, got no salvage, and lost a single mech but recovered the pilot while fleeing for their DZ. Two mechs had to be mostly rebuilt, armor damage & ammo expended, and a owner-operator lost his family's Rifleman 3N to a lost leg but they survived though lost their cash reserve since they did not get paid (non-MRBC job) until they found another contract.
Several years later . . . someone comes to them offering a contract with backers to take down the noble who double-crossed them . . .
I started re-watching Smallville to get to seasons I never saw, and I am thinking of using something from a episode. Lex finds out his home is bugged and knows his father did it. He gets back by hiring a specialist contractor team (mercs!) to break in and return the favor. Newbie/muscle/lowest ranking guy goes behind the team leader's back to recruit the other two from the team- 'I am not breaking into the richest man in the world's office and not opening the vault!' -in a attempt to get a bigger pay off than the job they were hired by Lex to carry out. I could EASILY see this carrying over to a BT merc objective raid about capturing or destroying a prototype weapon/mech/vehicle/ASF when a database with all sorts data is there for the taking since your already on the inside. It would be a great way to split a merc command, and for the PCs to end up with damaged survivors, decreased rep, and not getting paid.
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(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/rwby/images/9/92/Sweet_Summer_Child.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170612235705)
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Get them all excited about a new Garrison Contract near a major enemy to bust....then throw them under the bus... Good news or Bad news?
Bad news: Your mechs were on that Mule that just jumped heading towards the rear. The good news, we won't charge you for the shipping, they'll be here in about a month!
And a week later~ We're being attacked!!!
TT
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the problem with making a catastrophe due to the players' actions is that you are attempting to trap them into failing. it's like shooting baseballs directly at someone's head with the objective of hitting them after doing too well at batting practice and claiming that getting hit was a failure to get out of the way. it's not part of their expectation for reasonable progression in the campaign.
ratcheting up the campaign to reduce the players' force is automatically a contrivance. following Machiavelli, i'm not telling you not to do it. just don't get caught doing it
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I know I've told this one before, but it makes for a good example of a way to nerf a powerful player force... and still end up giving you a story to tell.
Many, many years ago I ran a group in Spokane, WA, and we had a mild cheating problem. Nothing huge, but a repeated thing where players would take an AC/10 hit, mark six dots, and then act like they marked the other four. Fire two shots from an Ultra/5 and mark one round used, roll that MASC roll in a dice tray conveniently under the lip of the table where the GM can't see it, that kind of thing. I made it clear a couple of times that I was aware of it, and I would prefer that kind of thing end immediately, and it was generally met with a shrug. Which was fine. I'm a creative and vindictive person.
Our group at this point has been around a while, and have some serious firepower as a result of repeated raids against the Clans (this is around 3060). A Mad Cat C, a Longbow tricked out with Clan LRM-15s, a Turkina (though it had IS weapon pods still at this point)... and this time they're taking on a new kind of enemy, on the far end of the Inner Sphere. A bounty is on their heads, after all, courtesy of the Wolf Clan, so going elsewhere and letting the heat die down is a good idea. And what do you know, there's work available via House Liao!
See, the Trinity Alliance is a shaky thing, still, but it's getting better- and not in a good way if you're Liao. The increasingly strong ties between the Taurians and Canopians is great, but if they get TOO close the Capellans might be on the outside looking in- can't have THAT. So, the occasional false-flag raid to keep things honest is only prudent if your'e a Capellan, right?
The job is easy. Meet the Capellan forces on Repulse, leave your usual gear behind and take a group of 3025/3050 medium and heavy designs painted as 1st Taurian Lancers, and hit a Canopian garrison. Don't take over the place or anything, just hit and fade. Return to Repulse via the chartered jumpship, exchange for your usual gear again, take your payment (a modest amount and a pair of new Mechs, a Lao Hu and a new-tech Raven) and call it a day- oh, and take a vow of secrecy, the kind that ensures you don't talk to anyone about this, EVER, upon penalty of a fate worse than death. Fun! It wasn't bad gear- a Crusader, a Thunderbolt, a couple of Shadow Hawks, etc., but it had to look Taurian- if they show up in a Mad Cat and such, it's going to prompt questions about who the raid really was, and that won't do.
The players arrive, and where they were told they'd face a medium lance and some armor/infantry, there's a problem- frontline Canopian forces have rotated in, including some freshly-purchased Capellan firepower, lead by a Yu Huang. It's bad news- and it's a rout. The players are left running like hell, pursued by gleeful Canopians both on the ground and in the sky. The dropship escapes, but only eight of the original twelve Mechs have survived, and those aren't in great shape.
Back to Repulse to ask the Capellans what the hell just happened... and this was where things REALLY got fun. The Dropship lands, the players come out in their battered (partially repaired) Mechs to make the exchange, and get told by Capellan control that they have no record of the mercs. Leave immediately. The players are of course flummoxed, because they're talking not to some random Liao but to the same Maskirovka operative they took the job from to begin with, why doesn't she remember us?
Final warning- leave at once, or be fired upon. At this point, familiar-looking Battlemechs begin showing up on the far end of the battlefield, a few mapsheets away. A Turkina. A Mad Cat. A Longbow... oh god. OH GOD.
For the better part of an afternoon, my now-ex and a couple of good out-of-town friends chased the players back to their Dropship for the second week in a row, pursuing them in their own Mechs. They escaped (taking two more losses in the process), less as a result of their prowess and more because I made sure they got away with some of the 'Taurian' gear. Their stuff? It's gone. Now there's just... this stuff. And a warrant for their arrest, courtesy of information about their dressing as Taurian raiders that 'somehow' leaked to the Canopians and Taurians.
At this point, the shop is closing, the miniatures go back in their foam trays, and the dazed players want answers. So I simply asked "will you all be cheating again in the future? Don't answer me now, really think about it for next time."... and left for home.
...for the rest of the time I joined that group, they were remarkably good about record-keeping. ^-^
My point here is that the players' munch-tech was removed, but it was as part of a larger story- there was a REASON it was gone, and while they weren't happy about it (particularly as a punitive measure), it set up stories that could allow the campaign to continue in fun directions- they're wanted by two Periphery powers now, as well as Liao really, and that means major problems- but it could also help them fall into pro-Marik or Davion camps in the future. It could set up a situation where they take work with, say the Word of Blake, not knowing it was a setup to hand them off to the vengeful Taurians. If your group is into a story being told rather than stat-crunching, this is golden stuff. If not... well, the GM will have fun, at least, and the players will have some challenges to work through.
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You're not making the catastrophe, they are. Conquering a world from a major faction and being hit back hard isn't a contrivance, it's a logical reaction. Of your players take Tikonov, for example, then they have to expect that it's going to be counterattacked. Don't set out to screw your players, but don't hold back from reacting how states actually would to a group with no backup doing something rash.
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Play it out logically is what I do. Is your unit full of high tech goodies, super successful etc? Great! Enjoy everyone around you trying to take the toys from you! Which, of course, adds all kinds of interesting conflicts and situations for the PCs to deal with, which makes for a memorable story.
Not, mind you to screw them over, but rather to set up conflict and struggle, which means fun.
It's like the old adage in Dwarf Fortress, that crazily complex roguelike/chaos simulator: Losing is Fun. All of your best stories come from bad situations, and when you win out from those, your team truly feels like a TEAM.
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It's like the old adage in Dwarf Fortress, that crazily complex roguelike/chaos simulator: Losing is Fun. All of your best stories come from bad situations, and when you win out from those, your team truly feels like a TEAM.
(https://i2.wp.com/greatestmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/FB_IMG_1440803945039.jpg?fit=480%2C552&ssl=1)
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Every action the PC unit makes should make ripples, if they are becoming the next Wolf Dragoon, Kell Hounds, Big Mac, etc. They are going to make enemies.
Worse enemy is one who attacks are "indirect", you order brand new advanced tanks, and what is in the shipping container, Scorpions some assemble required. The upgrade packages your order, yep you got the package, but they are what the upgrade package should replace. Of course you can file for missing stuff, I'm sure someone will care.
And then, if you are one of the Biggest Bad Unit out there someone going want a shot at you. Worse is if they hire Bounty Hunters, who target just 1 PC
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Every action the PC unit makes should make ripples, if they are becoming the next Wolf Dragoon, Kell Hounds, Big Mac, etc. They are going to make enemies.
Worse enemy is one who attacks are "indirect", you order brand new advanced tanks, and what is in the shipping container, Scorpions some assemble required. The upgrade packages your order, yep you got the package, but they are what the upgrade package should replace. Of course you can file for missing stuff, I'm sure someone will care.
And then, if you are one of the Biggest Bad Unit out there someone going want a shot at you. Worse is if they hire Bounty Hunters, who target just 1 PC
I would be careful of specifically targeting one player in these situations. It isn't going to significantly impact the power of the unit as a whole, but it will make someone who you presumably like if you are running a campaign for them think you are targeting them. That is going to cause far more problems than a new Wolfs Dragoons making your campaign too easy.
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I'd also add:
I never ask 'is this overpowered' or is this 'underpowered'. I ask "does this make the story we're making together better or worse? Does it add possibilities, or limit them? Does it add tension, or kill tension?"
Critical Role, the RPG live stream is a good example of this. Parts of it get pretty ridiculous in terms of bending the rules... but Mercer does an awesome job of keeping the story tense and exciting, and the players engaged. Perfect example, in one episode, the completely-useless-in-combat Bard, Scanlan, scores a huge crit on the big bad and saves the team. The players were literally jumping out of their seats cheering and the character milked that for days. THAT is what you want out of a game session.
I see the GM/DM/Whatever role as a combination of real time author/editor than anything else. Authors funnel imagination, editors cut out anything that gets in the way.
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As a player I love these threads and think 'what was I doing wrong ' or maybe the GM was just that good, nah ;D
At the height of our game the players were running a combined arms regiment during the Clan Invasion. Out of 44 mechs only 4 had clan tech, because they were clan ommis, and we paid dearly just to maintain them let alone salvage rights to replace destroyed components.
Then there was the regular operating cost, our monthly overhead was something like 2.5 million. If a mission went sideways and deemed a loss, not a breech of contract, but just a loss, it could end up cutting into the war chest savings.
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Don't let them get too powerful in the first place
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Avoid IC solutions to an OOC problem.
Talk to the players. Get their opinion on how things are going. Express how you feel about stuff. Work together.
This this THIS!!!
I’ve played in some overpowered games before. However powerful this group is, it can’t compare to some of the superhero games I’ve been in. And I can tell you that nothing feels like more of a rip-off than having a GM try to take away everything your characters have earned.
Here’s what you do. Sit the players down. Say “I’m not having fun running this game anymore. Your characters are so powerful that I can’t come up with reasonable opposition to challenge you. Anything I do at this point to provide real danger for your characters is going to feel like a GM screw job.” Then you ask how they want to conclude their story.
There are 3 real options I see at this point.
1) Hard reset. The players encounter some sort of major disaster. They get caught in a nuclear bombardment, most of their forces are destroyed. The players survive but most of their stuff is gone. They are back to square one. The guy with 5 Edge is down to 1 Edge, the rest permanently blown helping him survive by hiding in a refrigerator or something. They can keep playing these characters but everything is scaled back.
2) Retirement. Congrats, the House Lord has made you a Count. Now you will spend your time overseeing some planet somewhere. Your merc forces become your household guard. Everybody gets a happy ending. You get the benefit of knowing that your characters “won”. But now they are retired and they have responsibilities, and you can’t play them anymore. We can do a few game sessions where each player gets the spotlight and gets to enjoy their success. But basically this is your farewell tour.
3) Blaze of glory. You want one last big war, where everybody probably dies? Want to go out saving the empire from certain doom? Well here comes your arch enemy and he is pissed. We’re gonna do one big massive battle (or series of battles), and most of your stuff is gonna get annihilated. You will get to make a final heroic stand, but basically everyone is gonna die. Or they might as well have died. You’ll kill your arch enemy at the end, and your names will live in legend, but after that we start a new game.
Think of it like the Kell Hounds. Morgan Kell has a final battle with Yorinaga Kurita. He goes Phantom Mech and then goes off to be a monk. Patrick Kell disbands the unit and retires. Some of the non-main characters can go on to have their own adventures, but that initial campaign is over.
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Lots of very good advice.
Also remember that as their abilities and fame grow, their enemies likely grow with them. They may have been just a nuisance when they were a struggling lance-sized unit and beneath the notice of that Duke whose prized vineyard they trashed, but when he hears that they've grown to a battalion in size...well now they're a more credible threat. And something that he can manipulate his peers into doing something about.
Of course, my own group of PCs is potentially sowing the seeds of their own destruction. They've take a series of pirate-hunting campaigns in the Periphery and keep recruiting some of those very same pirate pilots as MW because they're better skilled than the "starting forces". So, if it continues like it has been, they may have a "Ship of Theseus" thing going on...but with pirates. :D
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What happens when a bounty hunter comes looking for a ex-pirate . . .
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I would be careful of specifically targeting one player in these situations. It isn't going to significantly impact the power of the unit as a whole, but it will make someone who you presumably like if you are running a campaign for them think you are targeting them. That is going to cause far more problems than a new Wolfs Dragoons making your campaign too easy.
It might or if they understand that having hired hitter trying to kill you make you someone. Look at Bounty Hunter vrs Natasha Kerensky . Plus I'm not targeting Bob who not done anything other then a Mercing but Alexander who company commander, whose actions lead to the defeat of a rebel force that was supported by a third party who wanted something from the planet. Or Andrea Black who used to be part of a pirate group, who still has a bounty somewhere on her head.
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It might or if they understand that having hired hitter trying to kill you make you someone. Look at Bounty Hunter vrs Natasha Kerensky . Plus I'm not targeting Bob who not done anything other then a Mercing but Alexander who company commander, whose actions lead to the defeat of a rebel force that was supported by a third party who wanted something from the planet. Or Andrea Black who used to be part of a pirate group, who still has a bounty somewhere on her head.
I've found that only targeting one PC never ends well if it succeeds, and might make them more powerful if it fails.
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Yeah, I would support the bounty hunter going after a NPC because its going to force situations for the PCs to decide- do we give this person up or defend them against a Hunter? Giving the person up should send morale to rock bottom AND cause contracted warriors to breach. Or plot a betrayal like the Lex break-in I outlined earlier (looking out for #1 while on the job). Or heck- why should I put myself out for leadership on the battlefield? They will not do the same for me . . .
While not as extreme as a bounty hunter, a off-scenes fracas at the local dive could end up with the local authorities wanting to arrest & imprison a troopie . . . and if your PCs did not have a 'status of forces' clause as part of their contract they are probably going to have to turn that person over or risk fighting their employer's affiliates. If turned over, they then have to pay for a message through ComStar to get to their merc liason- possibly priority costs (Kell's alley fight as example) if they are on a rotation to go off world.
Then again, I know some folks who have a perverse streak and would like to be the target of a Hunter- guess it takes knowing the player and having the conversation about it outside the game. Especially if you can get the player to play along with the surprise to the other PCs.
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Yeah, if you have a player who is cool with being targeted, that can make things interesting. But if you focus on one player too much, with good things or bad, your other players might feel like you are pahim too much attention.
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Have another per-made merc unit that fights really dirty get the same contract, from a different agent and have at it. Nukes, artillery and boobie traps on their pansied fake convoy that your people thought was the real one! Their looking to expand and your qruop looks good enough...
TT
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** Note - while not exactly on topic of cheaters...
Some of the most valuable tools that are often over-looked or forgotten:
Enemy
In-For-Life
Dark Secret
While only really useful if incorporating AToW elements, having a scenario that would require non-combat elements / requirements can put some brakes on momentum... Not implying as being direct as requiring a skill, ability, or knowledge that the PC's don't or can't have, but rather by presenting an issue which would require some thought, effort, or plan, in a direction that the players don't typically exhibit - OR - if in-combat, (as a couple guys have said elsewhere) require that their targets are to be captured / disabled, not destroyed or killed. Those players who are all about "guns' a'blazin'..." may have somewhat of a challenge.
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I suggest a power struggle within the unit. Someone decides that they can run the unit better and refuses to back down. A portion of the unit lines up behind them and they either decide to part company or take control of the entire unit by force.
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So many great ideas, I hope mine can compete.....
My idea for that is hopefully, early on in a campaign, maybe the first or second contract, set up the idea of a recurring enemy or nemesis, if you will. If a campaign is already established, go back into the unit's combat history to find one. A good nemesis grows in power as does the unit, so that it can be interspersed from time to time until there is a penultimate encounter, or peel back the threat layer by layer For instance, on a contract against House Steiner, unbeknownst to them the unit killed/badly injured/ capture a Mechwarrior, who happens to be a family member of a rising family. As the family gains power/money/resources in the House, the family patriarch plots his revenge, and stops at nothing. This opens things up from raids, to hit and run tactics, foiling shipments, red tape, propaganda/rumor mill bad mouthing the unit, and even enlisting other families to even perform special operations in order to cause havoc, as well as fight them on the field.
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if it is Succession Wars, send thr Bounty Hunter after them. if it is the Jihad, Opacus Venatori with full Manei Domini rules. Stuff that can not be quantified by BV and act as a "boss battle" is the ideal way to knock player characters down a peg.
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Cancer... I give every PC cancer...
Any kind of cancer will do, but testicular is my favorite.
:thumbsup:
No, seriously, I design the campaign so they never have the opportunity to get OP in the first place. No SDLF caches, no abandoned WoB dropship full of mechs, no lightly guarded Clan depots.
I keep the contracts hard bargains and level appropriate. Best way to do this is through competition. I had a merc group absolutely HATING a rival NPC merc unit for constantly undercutting their job bids, forcing them to accept tighter salvage deals to get the jobs.
I'm not a fan of "employer betrayal" which seems to be the plot of EVERY single Battletech story ever written! But I do make the employers fairly ruthless; they want the job done at the best possible deal their very experienced negotiators can get! It also made for fun r oleplaying opportunities when the players found "creative" ways to get ahold of more salvage than the letter of the contract might allow... ;)
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No, seriously, I design the campaign so they never have the opportunity to get OP in the first place. No SDLF caches, no abandoned WoB dropship full of mechs, no lightly guarded Clan depots.
This. I cannot emphasis this point enough. One of the GM's responsibilities is to keep the power level of the players under control and to what suits their campaign. I am not saying that they should never give them anything; however, I am saying that if they introduce something to the campaign then they should be prepared for the PCs to take it
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I am saying that if they introduce something to the campaign then they should be prepared for the PCs to take it
Then that means you are quarantining a part of the universe to prevent contamination, and/or you prevent growth and reward for the players.
IE, you don't want your players to have Clan gear: only solution is to never use it.
You never want them to gain assaults: same.
Etc.
This is why it's far more important that you *and* the players are on the same page going in, and as the campaign progresses. You need to communicate about this regularly.
True for any system.
Compare to, say, DND: you can't stop giving XP to players. You can't stop giving them treasure and magic weapons. Those are intrinsic rewards to the experience.
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Anyone used negative quirks on powerful stuff?
'Awesome, you salvaged that Dire Wolf A . . . its going to be a powerful addition to your force, but I gotta tell you . . . when that Gauss Rifle smashed in the head, it caused some sort of fault in the targeting system. Your techs really tried (botched 1 roll?) but its got a short until you can take it to blah blah, and it has the quirk of Poor Targeting: Short until it gets properly fixed.
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On the other hand, just roll with it. Go full Dragon Ball Z and embrace the power creep. If your 2/3rds of your PC's force is Clan gear, and everyone has 1-3 SPA's, then 5/12ths of the oppoent's force is Clan grade too.
That can limit the a bit in terms of story options. There aren't too many company sized pirate forces, with all veteran to elite pilots, with 2 lances of exquisitely mantained Clan tech. But if you did happen to find one, well that might be something worthy of a bit of investigation and follow up.
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Then that means you are quarantining a part of the universe to prevent contamination, and/or you prevent growth and reward for the players.
IE, you don't want your players to have Clan gear: only solution is to never use it.
You never want them to gain assaults: same.
Etc.
This is why it's far more important that you *and* the players are on the same page going in, and as the campaign progresses. You need to communicate about this regularly.
True for any system.
Compare to, say, DND: you can't stop giving XP to players. You can't stop giving them treasure and magic weapons. Those are intrinsic rewards to the experience.
Just because it exists in the world doesn't mean you have to use it. It's the GMs job to lay boundaries and guide the players along the story's path. Not handing a player a clan tech prize is not even close the same thing as withholding XP. And yes you can give your players magic weapons/expensive salvage, but it's the GMs JOB to not hand them Stormbringer/Timber Wolf Prime to early or too easily. Players are scampering around in the maze YOU as the GM have made, it your responsibility to control how many traps AND how much cheese to put in it.
They are going to use whatever you put in front of them! If faced with clan tech salvage YOU put in front of them, do you expect them not to use it "for the good of the game"??? A: not likely! 🤣 and B: it would be poor roleplaying anyway!! These pc's are hungry, ambitious, mercs after all!!
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I had a similar situation back when I ran two Battletech campaigns. The players were getting stronger and more powerful with 3025 (the era that the campaigns started) Their pilots were all started as 4/5 G/P but after about 8 months into the campaign they were nearly all 2/3 G/P. (skill abilities were based upon kills, scenario objective completion (which earned "bonus kills") and player votes (more "bonus kills" given out, but decided by the players. Players that received player voted "bonus kills" the previous week, were exempt the following week.) For example, to get to a 3 gunnery, that pilot had to get 4 kills. Then in order to get to a gunnery of 2 required 3X the previous number of kills or 4x3=12 kills. a 1 gunnery required 12x3=36 kills etc. Improving piloting required 3 kills to improve to get a 4 piloting. Then 3x3=9 kills for a 3 piloting, 9x3=27 kills for a 2 piloting etc...
We played every Thursday. Every Thursday was a different scenario in the campaign.
The trick to whittle them down was to have them accept one of two contracts.
1st contract: Players will be in a continuous attack for two consecutive weeks and will not have time for repairs for the second battle. Referee decides if it turns into three or more consecutive weeks before there is rest and rebuild. Salvage can be very important here. If players lose a powerful mech (like to a lucky headshot) They will have to decide whether or not to move it off of the battlefield for salvage recovery or commit to winning the battlefield.
2nd contract: requires players to spread out their forces at multiple locations that do not support each other. Get or make a planetary map. let the players decide where to put their split forces. Tell them that the contract owner requires a certain minimum amount of players forces at each location (either quantity of mechs or by tonnage). Then, play out each of the locations as a smaller battle. Some locations can be attacking, others defending, others doing recon etc. This way the players are powerful, but less concentrated with less quantities of equipment.
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3) Blaze of glory. You want one last big war, where everybody probably dies? Want to go out saving the empire from certain doom? Well here comes your arch enemy and he is pissed. We’re gonna do one big massive battle (or series of battles), and most of your stuff is gonna get annihilated. You will get to make a final heroic stand, but basically everyone is gonna die. Or they might as well have died. You’ll kill your arch enemy at the end, and your names will live in legend, but after that we start a new game.
I have an idea kind of poached from a DnD campaign I ended in a similar way.
Set up a new campaign with characters, equipment, etc.
Offer option 3, and set up a grinder scenario with never ending waves of tougher and more numerous enemies attacking the Uber powerful equipment and PCs. Set heroic goals (one mech killing 5 enemies, or they successfully eliminate a group of "big bads" without any of the baddies escaping, overall kill totals, headhit kills, etc) Each goal can be traded in for a special bonus applied to the newly created group (tech upgrade, edge points, cash, interesting units, etc)
( I'm kind of picturing something similar to Home world Wolves defending Kerensky's genes...)
The characters get heroic ends, the group has a blast pushing their hard earned toys to the limit and beyond, the Players don't feel cheated, and you reset the campaign.
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I have an idea kind of poached from a DnD campaign I ended in a similar way.
Set up a new campaign with characters, equipment, etc.
Offer option 3, and set up a grinder scenario with never ending waves of tougher and more numerous enemies attacking the Uber powerful equipment and PCs. Set heroic goals (one mech killing 5 enemies, or they successfully eliminate a group of "big bads" without any of the baddies escaping, overall kill totals, headhit kills, etc) Each goal can be traded in for a special bonus applied to the newly created group (tech upgrade, edge points, cash, interesting units, etc)
( I'm kind of picturing something similar to Home world Wolves defending Kerensky's genes...)
The characters get heroic ends, the group has a blast pushing their hard earned toys to the limit and beyond, the Players don't feel cheated, and you reset the campaign.
I like that idea. Gives the players incentive to do as well as they can, even if they've gotten bored of their current characters. Because their performance here benefits their next characters.
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What about Tucker's Kobolds (https://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/TuckersKobolds.pdf)?
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Oh god no.... not them!
* Pictures a MW named Tucker and his Sasquatch-002, his Company of a Tempest-3MA using precision ammo and Infernos, a Crusader-5S and a Verfolger R6-T, two Bishamon-5KC and their Master, a -4K and a third C-Slaved Venom-9KC. Offering up more firepower is the Kobold carriers 8 Goblin MGs with 5 Kobold Small Laser and Flamer models each, pulling tracked 8 ( LRM ) Gun Trailers, so equipped with Thunder-Infernos, Smoke and Standard HE salvos. *
Now this is nasty looking surprise!
TT
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What about Tucker's Kobolds (https://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/TuckersKobolds.pdf)?
Those guys are awesome. The guy running our DnD game read that way back when and decided to use it in an updated 'Keep on the Borderlands' crawl.
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Oh god no.... not them!
* Pictures a MW named Tucker and his Sasquatch-002, his Company of a Tempest-3MA using precision ammo and Infernos, a Crusader-5S and a Verfolger R6-T, two Bishamon-5KC and their Master, a -4K and a third C-Slaved Venom-9KC. Offering up more firepower is the Kobold carriers 8 Goblin MGs with 5 Kobold Small Laser and Flamer models each, pulling tracked 8 ( LRM ) Gun Trailers, so equipped with Thunder-Infernos, Smoke and Standard HE salvos. *
Now this is nasty looking surprise!
TT
Why am I not surprised you quickly had a BT answer for them!!! ;D
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Cause your slow at the draw, or I just happen to have a design for anything, any time?
Either way, I make evil look good... * cough * Whispers of Blake * cough * >:D
TT
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TrueTanker, now this is a back in the day reference!!!! You definitely have some evil thinking! >:D I like it! I need to research some of what you mentioned, though...although internal damage plus a bunch of heat from thunder-infernos would slow anything down!
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Oh god no.... not them!
* Pictures a MW named Tucker and his Sasquatch-002, his Company of a Tempest-3MA using precision ammo and Infernos, a Crusader-5S and a Verfolger R6-T, two Bishamon-5KC and their Master, a -4K and a third C-Slaved Venom-9KC. Offering up more firepower is the Kobold carriers 8 Goblin MGs with 5 Kobold Small Laser and Flamer models each, pulling tracked 8 ( LRM ) Gun Trailers, so equipped with Thunder-Infernos, Smoke and Standard HE salvos. *
Now this is nasty looking surprise!
TT
If we want to keep with the theme, set the battle in Ishiyama. And for opfor, few units offer the mix of squishability, and "OMIGOD, BEES!!!! GETTHEMOFFGETTHEMOFF!!!" as protomechs. They range in offense from laughable, Cecerops and Harpy, up through kind of terrifying, like the Roc 2 and Minotaur.
Say every open area on the map houses a point of protos, hiding in ceiling, or niches in the walls, or any other evil trick you can think of. They attack for one turn, then run. If a proto breaks LOS from the players, then it is considered to have "escaped," and are removed from the map. Then after 1D6, any "escaped" protos will appear on the player's rear flank during the next available ambush.
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I'm generally against the "Tucker's Kobolds" style of GMing, unless the players signed up for that. It can be fun to run a group of characters against a particularly nasty dungeon, where you know the GM is trying to kill you with all kinds of dirty tricks and traps. But I don't want that to happen to a character I'm heavily invested in.
Too often that type of GMing leads to a bunch of special rules for the villains that you wouldn't let the PCs use. They operate with a degree of coordination that they probably shouldn't have, all their plans work, they see through any traps the PCs might have set, etc. In my experience, when a GM uses low level critters to try and take out a high level group, there's usually some out of character spite going on. "This'll teach them a lesson..." I'm old enough and get to play rarely enough that that isn't really fun anymore.
I played in a superhero game once where the characters got extremely powerful, to the point that nothing could really challenge them anymore (we were Justice League level in a game that didn't have JLA class villains). Some of the players moved away, and we switched to a different game. But when some of those guys came back a few years later for Christmas, we talked the GM into running a session with our old characters. Anyway, it quickly became apparent that the GM had soured on that campaign, and had apparently grown to hate those characters. Our characters woke up with significantly reduced powers, he had rewritten our character sheets and wouldn't show them to us. Then we got creamed by one of the beginner groups of villains, and when we mouthed off to the government-backed hero team, they beat us unconscious and locked us up in super-prison. The GM succeeded in one respect -- that game died right there, and we've never asked to play those characters again. But boy did he ruin a lot of fond memories of that campaign.
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I'm generally against the "Tucker's Kobolds" style of GMing, unless the players signed up for that. It can be fun to run a group of characters against a particularly nasty dungeon, where you know the GM is trying to kill you with all kinds of dirty tricks and traps. But I don't want that to happen to a character I'm heavily invested in.
Even though I'm the one who brought it up, I agree, 100%. There has to be communication in the group. The GM shouldn't give away the story, but they can say, "Hey, gang, I have a mission for you. Fair warning: It's EVILTM. Interested?"
Also recall that the story of Tucker's Kobolds doesn't have the Kobolds as the main enemy. They were just to soften players up a bit.
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I’ve been running a Mechwarrior 2nd edition/Battletech group for more than three years now, so this is a problem that has entered my mind again and again. So far, it hasn’t been a problem, both because of some small touches by me as a GM, but also having a very good player group, who know that more power doesn’t necessarily end up with a more exciting story. They’ve grown from a lance to a battalion, so it’s been a slow rise.
Limiting the power of player groups is best done with a lot of small touches, I find. The best choice is always to be ahead of the game, not letting them get too powerful in the first place. Be a bit stingy with rewards, it’s much easier to rectify giving too few things, than trying to take something back. However, the players should still feel rewarded, so it’s a delicate balance.
Now, taking away what the players already have is more difficult to do without upsetting them, and understandably so. I’ve always run a fairly high difficulty on fights when I could, so that means there tends to be losses here and there, naturally trimming their forces. A good tool is to use contract specifications to make things a bit harder for them in regards to getting more equipment. Things like limiting their salvage percentage and giving less loss compensation can do wonders. A favorite of mine is to make it so that salvage is exchanged to C-bills, and then limit them to only buying items through their employer, essentially, a company store ploy.
There is always the option of outright screwing them over, as in having their employers not pay, or try to have them killed. This should be limited to rare occasions, as otherwise it will get very tedious. However, if you want to do so…I recommend screwing them over early, rather than late. Make it part of the premise of the adventure, and it becomes easier to swallow in my experience. Also, if done well, sweet revenge can be reward enough to make them forget a few lost mechs.
And yes, as mentioned before, communication is key. Talk with your player group, it tends to make things go much smoother.
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Now, I guess a quick question I have is: Is it the player group that's too powerful? Or is it the fact that they have a regiment of NPCs backing them that have also grown to veteran or elite status?
Some extra suggestions to consider.
- I personally have the hero team split up and fight separately from the whole force. It's a personal thing I've done with a merc unit of my own, because it's an easy revenue stream to send out companies or lances on smaller raids, regardless of the risks. But, it also helps in larger conflicts where there are regiments involved. Sure, there's a bigger conflict going on, so once you're done with this battle, you may have to rush to someone else's aid, or deal with another foe with next to no time for repairs. (Somebody already mentioned gauntlet, but the focus of the fight would constantly be on the team as it operates independently of the larger force, and how that works out for the larger story.)
- As long as your campaign isn't strictly Mech-oriented, like a lot of mine are, (think Descent, using the BattleTech Board Game) then, sometimes it can be fun to have the team constantly out of their element. Doesn't always have to be combat, either. What if, for example, they're on a capital world, or in a capitol city, and they accidentally come across the ruler, who happens to be out wandering as a commoner to get the feel of his/her people? How they treat this person, and whether that person causes problems if the team sticks by while the ruler causes hijinks or gets into trouble will have rammifications on whether or how they're rewarded later, once the ruler is back home in the palace.
Another example would be something akin to the Startraveller's Guide to Survival, where they win a mission only to come back to the DropShip and find it's been sabotaged, and they're stuck until either someone comes looking for them or the ship is fixed.
When the group gets too powerful, sometimes its fun to use that to your advantage, and start focusing on story, and being creative, because you probably don't have to worry about whether they'll die or not. Have something you always wanted to try? Throw it at the team's anvil to see how it works out.
RE: Ending the story - As much as the idea of 'ending the story' can be fun, I know that I have characters that I like to roll out every once in a while after said story, so, if they manage to hang on in spite of the 'Blaze of Glory ending', something should be allowed for survivors.
There you go. My to Eagle Marks.
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I know perhaps its boring... but have them face against equal odds (nega-players). If they have an ultra elite company of Clantech mechs with support... well make them face off against an ultra elite trinary of clan heavies & assaults, 2 stars of mechs, 1 star of elementals & ASF. Equal numbers, equal or better skill levels, having them fighting under Zell initially, and when the players break Zell, have a second trinary standing by. It's their own fault for breaking the rules. If its 4th SW, then a similarly high specced company from a major house unit. Dont play fair. Choose the terrain to your advantage, mine the whole area, whatever it takes to make them twist without making it seems like a total backstab job. If its Blakists they are fighting under, well then its even worse.... they dont play fair at all.
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RE: Ending the story - As much as the idea of 'ending the story' can be fun, I know that I have characters that I like to roll out every once in a while after said story, so, if they manage to hang on in spite of the 'Blaze of Glory ending', something should be allowed for survivors.
What about doing retiring the party in a blaze of glory, with never ending waves of enemies, with a twist. Every kill a PC makes before they die is 10 free XP they can use when you start the new campaign.
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What about doing retiring the party in a blaze of glory, with never ending waves of enemies, with a twist. Every kill a PC makes before they die is 10 free XP they can use when you start the new campaign.
What I mean is that if a player wants to, they can come up with a reason why the character survives, and could be rolled out in the future as a guest-star every once in a while. They don't all have to go.
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I’m going to suggest something a little different. Let them win.
A lot of people have recommended some kind of harsh GM action, a dirty trick of some kind. Unless your players have been total jerks, there’s no reason to do this. Why not give one of the players a title? He saves a Duke and gets knighted. Now he’s Baron von Skullassassin and he’s got his own planet. However, that’s gonna require him to actually stay on the planet and not go out being a mercenary anymore. He’s also going to have to devote all his XP for the next, well forever basically, to learning Baron type skills like bureaucratics and courtly behavior. Sorry you can’t spend those points on better gunnery.
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I’m going to suggest something a little different. Let them win.
A lot of people have recommended some kind of harsh GM action, a dirty trick of some kind. Unless your players have been total jerks, there’s no reason to do this. Why not give one of the players a title? He saves a Duke and gets knighted. Now he’s Baron von Skullassassin and he’s got his own planet. However, that’s gonna require him to actually stay on the planet and not go out being a mercenary anymore. He’s also going to have to devote all his XP for the next, well forever basically, to learning Baron type skills like bureaucratics and courtly behavior. Sorry you can’t spend those points on better gunnery.
My first OC simply retired.