Author Topic: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?  (Read 19181 times)

HABeas2

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #60 on: 27 May 2012, 15:13:24 »
Hello,

But I can't find the actual game effect of the cannon if fired, or am I missing something in Jihad: Final Reckoning

Nope. No game effects were ever published.

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bblaney

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #61 on: 27 May 2012, 15:50:51 »
Hello,

Nope. No game effects were ever published.

Thank you,

- Herbert Beas
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So then why would you publish a mech with one and have no stats? ie the Septicema Z
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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #62 on: 27 May 2012, 15:56:14 »
So then why would you publish a mech with one and have no stats?

We didn't. It's a rumor. It may not be true.


Quote
ie the Septicema Z

What about that one? It doesn't have an HPG cannon, it's got a Ground-Mobile HPG.

Paul
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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #63 on: 30 September 2018, 11:59:15 »
Just doing some thread necro to be sure I'm not stupid, but we still do not have stats for Apollyon's Shootist, correct?

And hey! Way to go me for using search and actually FINDING something! WOOT!
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Alex Keller

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #64 on: 30 September 2018, 13:22:26 »
Apollyon's Shootist and Alys Rousette Marik's mech remain mysteries for all time.

jklantern

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #65 on: 30 September 2018, 13:25:56 »
Apollyon's Shootist and Alys Rousette Marik's mech remain mysteries for all time.

I declare her a Hermes II pilot.  She's that good.
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General308

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #66 on: 30 September 2018, 19:09:39 »
But I can't find the actual game effect of the cannon if fired, or am I missing something in Jihad: Final Reckoning

It has whatever effect you want it to have in your game.     You have more power than TPTB.

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #67 on: 30 September 2018, 20:34:59 »
I declare her a Hermes II pilot.  She's that good.

I saw her more as a Tempest pilot, but a heavily modified Hermes II would be baller

glitterboy2098

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #68 on: 01 October 2018, 02:09:04 »
It has whatever effect you want it to have in your game.     You have more power than TPTB.
Alpha Strike has rules for using one. Pg 36 of the Alpha Strike Companion. the rules are for the side effects of using a mobile HPG to send a message.. which is basically one heck of an area effect EMP blast if it is on anything other than a mobile structure or dropship. summed up; can only be used once every 6 turns, takes 2 turns to charge up (during which the unit cannot move of fire), when fired it generates a hefty +4 to hit penalty to everything with a 16 inch radius, including itself. which lasts for 6 turns.

honestly, this would make the Septicemia Z a walking nightmare, given it can blanket a 33 inch circle of the board with a hefty targeting debuff, and by the time the effects of the first one wears off, it is almost ready to do it again.
the downside of course is that it effects friendly units as well, so your own forces are just as hindered.
« Last Edit: 01 October 2018, 02:10:47 by glitterboy2098 »

Colt Ward

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #69 on: 01 October 2018, 09:37:20 »
So, it races ahead of everything using cover to keep from being hit- and goes off to the side a bit.  Catches the majority of the Clan forces 4-5 inches inside that circle, but its support is outside the curve . . .

Light it off, Clan forces now face a +4 to hit, untouched Society forces?  Murder time . . . now is it going to affect Artemis IV and NARC systems for the 6 turns?
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #70 on: 01 October 2018, 09:42:00 »
Keep it simple. All units within 33 hexes of the HPG roll 2D6. On a 10+ they get teleported to that AU where Kerensky died and the Exodus never happened.  ^-^
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Colt Ward

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #71 on: 01 October 2018, 09:44:23 »
Lol, you want to throw MORE Prime troops and tech into the Flames universe?  Are you trying to destabilize the Hegemony even more?
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #72 on: 01 October 2018, 10:06:18 »
So, it races ahead of everything using cover to keep from being hit- and goes off to the side a bit.  Catches the majority of the Clan forces 4-5 inches inside that circle, but its support is outside the curve . . .

Light it off, Clan forces now face a +4 to hit, untouched Society forces?  Murder time . . . now is it going to affect Artemis IV and NARC systems for the 6 turns?
alpha strike rules, so Artemis is already averaged into the stats. doesn't say anything about NARC, so i'd guess that would work as normal.

not sure how this would translate to standard BT.. i'm surprised it didn't get rules in interstellar ops or the like.

nckestrel

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #73 on: 01 October 2018, 10:40:01 »
alpha strike rules, so Artemis is already averaged into the stats. doesn't say anything about NARC, so i'd guess that would work as normal.

not sure how this would translate to standard BT.. i'm surprised it didn't get rules in interstellar ops or the like.

TO has mobile HPG rules, AS converted them.
However, Apollyon's Shootist is implied to have a better weapon than a mobile HPG that knocks itself as well as everybody else.  IE. It's capable of being targeted.  So the TO/AS rules don't cover it.
(My two cents with the note that I don't know anything about Apollyon's Shootist other than what's been said here.)
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Empyrus

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #74 on: 01 October 2018, 11:30:59 »
Given that the weapon never turned up in any form beyond that rumor, it is probable Apollyon's Shootist having a super weapon is merely a canon-rumor and a false one. At least canonically, even if IRL there was some intent to have the 'Mech mount a "super weapon".
Otherwise, the Word of Blake would have either produced more of the weapon probably, or the Republic of the Sphere could have developed something from it.
I'm not saying BT hyperspace tech can't be weaponized (it can be, in several ways, though none so far are particularly direct or efficient or effective enough to bother), i just figure that it is unlikely the Word of Blake managed that and left it at one prototype weapon for one warrior, no matter how important. Everything else they did was used in larger numbers, even if they weren't very high, and this includes expensive tricks like super-Jump which wrecks the ship's (expensive) jump drive.

I'd imagine what happened was that Apollyon's Shootists sports "common" tech weapon but one that is somehow unusual (possibly modified), like how the King Crab KGC-010 sported unusual PPCs that lead to others think the 'Mech featured a new weapon system. Throw in some hypothetical concept of a hyperpulse weapon and you get a wild rumor machine working.
The actual weapon could have been, for example, a Clan ER PPC modified with an Capacitor, something that is quite late IS-to-Clan tech conversion, but it is plausible it could have been done earlier, if you'd care to spend money and expertise for it. Far cheaper than a mysterious superweapon, highly powerful, and possibly the kind of thing that takes just too much effort to use beyond a single example (especially since even the WoB wasn't swimming in ClanTech), whereas a HPG weapon could find use, if perfected, in just about anywhere.
« Last Edit: 01 October 2018, 11:35:00 by Empyrus »

Colt Ward

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #75 on: 01 October 2018, 11:39:23 »
I always figured it would be a 'illegal' weapon like the Ancestral Home's set up . . .

Say a Clan ERPPC w/paired capacitors so one is always charging allowing continuous 20 pts of damage down range, and after each battle its maintenance intensive to the point where a roll has to be made to see if all three components have to be junked (33% chance?) because of the heat/electrical damage to the whole system.
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Empyrus

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #76 on: 01 October 2018, 11:44:38 »
If the Hyperlaser wasn't explicitly said to be developed from Clan Improved Heavy Lasers, i would've suggested Apollyon sported an early example of that weapon. And assume Apollyon is just damn lucky, since the Hyperlaser tends to blow up if you so much as look at it badly.
Of course, the official story for the Hyperlaser could be just that, an official explanation that is actually a cover for "this is actually a weapon from WoB's archives".

Speaking of illegal crazy weapons, a Hyperlaser with a Pulse Module would be hilarious(ly explosive).
« Last Edit: 01 October 2018, 11:46:45 by Empyrus »

glitterboy2098

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #77 on: 01 October 2018, 12:34:12 »
It is also possible that his weapons were conventional, but the combinations were odd. Like the Uraeus in the dark ages, which mixed some odd features together in a way that requires a distinct fighting style to make optimal use of.

Empyrus

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #78 on: 01 October 2018, 12:46:28 »
It is also possible that his weapons were conventional, but the combinations were odd. Like the Uraeus in the dark ages, which mixed some odd features together in a way that requires a distinct fighting style to make optimal use of.
Unfortunately it is really difficult to come up with anything like that, even assuming Apollyon got basically all the best cybernetics for a MechWarrior.

The Uraeus is a bit inefficient no matter what. The Vibroblade pulling double duty as heat generator and heavy hitter and the Bombast Laser existing for heat fine tuning are neat features, but they don't make the 'Mech exactly impressive. Implicitly Apollyon's Shootist is much more than just "i got a nice but difficult trick".

It boils down to available tech, if we assume no superweapons or even just illegal weapons (like Colt Ward's suggestion of double-Capacitor) are used. BT doesn't really have anything that enhances performance of other things on a 'Mech, TarComps and Narc missiles aside.

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #79 on: 01 October 2018, 12:49:19 »
Maybe we're all wrong and the Shootist's secret weapon is that it allows Apollyon to upload his consciousness into the mech... in effect, he becomes Starscream.

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #80 on: 01 October 2018, 13:12:24 »
The Septicemia Z sounds like exactly the kind of insane suicide Matrix EMP tactic that the Society would use. Very nice.

Maybe we're all wrong and the Shootist's secret weapon is that it allows Apollyon to upload his consciousness into the mech... in effect, he becomes Starscream.
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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #81 on: 01 October 2018, 16:03:23 »
Why do we even think this thing had an HPG Cannon?

Who had the Alamo Launcher?
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Empyrus

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #82 on: 01 October 2018, 16:08:23 »
Why do we even think this thing had an HPG Cannon?
Well, if you take a look at this thread, Paul very much implies TPTB (or at least the writers did) considered something like that...

I do wonder if a HPG weapon was mentioned in the in-universe rumor or not. Can't find my Jihad books at the moment so i can't check. Not to mention i don't recall exactly where this rumor was included...

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #83 on: 01 October 2018, 16:12:47 »
Well, if you take a look at this thread, Paul very much implies TPTB (or at least the writers did) considered something like that...

I do wonder if a HPG weapon was mentioned in the in-universe rumor or not. Can't find my Jihad books at the moment so i can't check. Not to mention i don't recall exactly where this rumor was included...

I remember discussion of it for years now, but I don't remember which source it was associated with either.  Probably doesn't help that I only have limited access to ANY Jihad era books.
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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #84 on: 01 October 2018, 16:22:51 »
Jihad Final Reckoning has an entry for the HPG Cannon.  It mentions Apollyon's Shootist possibly carrying it, and "It is clear that subsequent to deploying the Ground-Mobile HPG unit, the Terran Hegemony continued research into weaponizing the device in some way".  So it was different than the ground-mobile HPG.
But the entire entry is speculation.
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Empyrus

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #85 on: 01 October 2018, 16:46:51 »
Ah, found my stuff and the section.
Nothing that contradicts to existing BT hyperspace physics, given that HPGs already work within atmosphere and significant gravity field (eg a planet's).
Basically a matter of miniaturizing a HPG, while keeping it sufficiently powerful, and it must be accurate. Technically not an impossible task, just rather difficult one given how finicky and expensive hyperspace tech is, plus miniaturizing tech is rather difficult in BTU in general.

Interestingly, this ties sorta nicely with one of Shattered Fortress proposed HPG Blackout causes. The most interesting theory in that book was that the HPGs were aimed at stars, rather than (i assume) upper atmosphere or just near a planet. Since the HPGC is suggested to be vulnerable to "misjumps" of some sort, i'd imagine firing a HPG to a star could cause similar effect, a feedback that destroys or damages the device.

I don't think either leads to real long-distance hyperspace weapons though. The issue is that of aiming. Hitting a star, or even a planet is plausible, but hitting a specific thing on a planet? Unlikely, especially with BTU's lack of extreme computing power and/or AIs. And actually damaging a planet would likely require enough power it is just simpler to go nuke the place or launch an asteroid at the place.

So, i maintain my "technically possible but pretty damn unlikely" stance on this.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #86 on: 01 October 2018, 16:59:29 »
Perhaps instead of weaponizing the signal, it could just be a application of kf drivecore materials tech to create a massive directional EMP blast? Super-TSEMP?

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #87 on: 01 October 2018, 20:45:15 »
I just chalked it up to a in universe rumor. The gun always sounded too insane and the idea that it was apparently only on Apollyon's mech makes it even more questionable.     

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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #88 on: 01 October 2018, 20:55:20 »
Makes sense.  In-universe people believe all kinds of wild things about the WoB and particularly about high-ranking members like Apollyon.
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Re: Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?
« Reply #89 on: 01 October 2018, 22:41:35 »
The Septicemia Z sounds like exactly the kind of insane suicide Matrix EMP tactic that the Society would use. Very nice.

Actually, the Septicemia Z was meant to take out warships. The society used HPGs to infect warships with a computer virus that crippled them from a safe distance, with varying levels of success.
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