Has Apollyon's Shootist been given stats?

[ANS Kamas P81]

Maybe it's just an improved TSEMP that got blown out of proportion?  (see also: how many American tank units actually fought Panthers in Europe)

[Empyrus]

Maybe it's just an improved TSEMP that got blown out of proportion?  (see also: how many American tank units actually fought Panthers in Europe)

TSEMP is a ROTS invention, well after the Jihad.

[jklantern]

TSEMP is a ROTS invention, well after the Jihad.

Maybe they picked up the remains from Blake Test examples!  [/Devil's Advocate]

Or maybe he did just have a big HPG cannon.

[beachhead1985]

Well, if you take a look at this thread, Paul very much implies TPTB (or at least the writers did) considered something like that...

I do wonder if a HPG weapon was mentioned in the in-universe rumor or not. Can't find my Jihad books at the moment so i can't check. Not to mention i don't recall exactly where this rumor was included...

That may have been too subtle for me.

[JadeHellbringer]

I just chalked it up to a in universe rumor. The gun always sounded too insane and the idea that it was apparently only on Apollyon's mech makes it even more questionable.   

To turn it the other way, if Terra itself is under siege and there's only one prototype of a possible game-changing weapon handy, who else would be able to pull the kind of clout needed to get it installed on his personal ride?

I'm not saying that's a great idea, mind you. That he drives an old Shootist instead of something more Blake-y... or at least recent vintage... or, you know, 'good'... is a little weird in the first place, but it makes sense that even if he's going to drive that old dinosaur around he should be able to demand just about any trickery installed on it he so desires. Clan tech? Sure. Top of the line Blakist gear? Damn right. Prototype weaponry? Do it. HPG cannon? Sounds fun, make it happen. Not ready for field testing? I'LL field test it and tell you what it does to Devlin Stone's Atlas when I get back.

[grimlock1]

I'm just thinking about the EMP havoc an HPG cannon is likely to play on the unit that fires it... and anyone standing next to them.  Idle question, did we ever get a rundown of what implants Apollyon had?  And how bad might it be if they all went offline and had to reboot?

[Empyrus]

To turn it the other way, if Terra itself is under siege and there's only one prototype of a possible game-changing weapon handy, who else would be able to pull the kind of clout needed to get it installed on his personal ride?

This would make sense if it was during that fight only. The problem is, Apollyon (and the Blakists) is implied to have used the weapon throughout the Jihad. At least, as much as "weird events we can't really explain that have no witnesses" can be taken to be "implication".

In any individual, hopeless battle, i can see one-off prototypes being tried out because there's nothing to lose really. But through a war... not.

After all, basically every single other Blakist superweapon and superdevice made multiple appearances (even if they were confined to one planet) with witnesses. The Spectral LAMs, the Omega, the Rattler II, the super-large subs on Earth, the Gestalt, the super jump drive, the super HPGs...

[JadeHellbringer]

This would make sense if it was during that fight only. The problem is, Apollyon (and the Blakists) is implied to have used the weapon throughout the Jihad. At least, as much as "weird events we can't really explain that have no witnesses" can be taken to be "implication".

In any individual, hopeless battle, i can see one-off prototypes being tried out because there's nothing to lose really. But through a war... not.

After all, basically every single other Blakist superweapon and superdevice made multiple appearances (even if they were confined to one planet) with witnesses. The Spectral LAMs, the Omega, the Rattler II, the super-large subs on Earth, the Gestalt, the super jump drive, the super HPGs...

Fair enough, but how many did we NEVER actually see? For every Rattler, Omega, etc., how many neat tricks did the Blakists never actually get to deploy? What got atomized before it could come up from Hilton Head, or any number of other facilities?

Sometimes a superweapon spotted only once really does exist- the carrier Shinano, for example, was sunk on her maiden voyage by an American submarine, her skipper reporting sinking it (and drawing what he saw), and being told that was impossible- the Allies knew the location of every Japanese carrier, after all, so he must be mistaken. Eventually he was given credit for sinking a Junyo-class carrier (a smaller ship converted from ocean liners)- it wasn't until after the war that the rumors of a Yamato-class battleship being converted into a carrier were finally revealed to be true, and that she was lost right where USS Archer-fish claimed.

So we only have one sighting (and that unconfirmed) of the HPG cannon. That doesn't necessarily make it untrue- just hard to pin down.

[Easy]

cleanup

[Empyrus]

Panic-And-Lose-O-Matic is a way of life for them. If Apollyon found a way to try and use a particle accelerator to turn Terra into a black hole, he might do it as an expression of Blake's Will, let alone a hyperpulse gun theory.

They did actually have a system for nuking Earth, the Operation MEGIDDO, as detailed in Final Reckoning along with the HPG cannon. They didn't end up using it. I mean, someone at the top did order its activation but that didn't go through, just blew up the Hilton Head Island, probably in an attempt to prevent full activation of the system.


Since the Republic captured a lot of Word of Blake tech, i'd imagine they would've obtained the HPG cannon were it real, or at least actual technical data, and given the dire straits they're in, i would assume they would've tried the weapon if it were in their possession (they did try stuff like RISC tech after all and deployed the Fortress which was supposed to be a emergency contingency). OK, it is possible it got blown up, but bunch of other hyperspace tech didn't: i'm pretty sure the Blackout and the Fortress are derived from Word of Blake tech and theories, that faction was the leading hyperspace researcher after all. As such, i'm really doubtful the HPG cannon ever truly existed.

As for other WoB superweapons, we have pretty good overview of the WoB projects in Final Reckoning. I can believe they also had projects for more conventional tech as well, and i wouldn't be surprised if some were used (subject to future stories, if any will be written ever). But for super-advanced tech, i'm thinking Final Reckoning got them all.
And i am sure they would've tried bunch of them, if they ever got them to working prototype status, even just one example. For contrast, the Clans (Vipers?) apparently deployed some kind of super defense or armor on a WarShip during the War of Reaving, evidently one of a kind. That definitively does happen in real world and Battletech universe, and there may not be evidence left behind, but the HPG cannon doesn't feel like a similar example, i interpret the text on Final Reckoning as the Word of Blaking supposedly having more of them and that Apollyon just had one installed on his 'Mech.

[Colt Ward]

With the description of what the mobile HPG does on the battlefield, I think its really interesting someone brought up the TSEMP.  Since the Republic brought it out in 3109 that would be nearly 30 years after the Jihad for research time . . .  We are told it comes from the Mech Taser, but that would not be the first time something was a bit misdirecting.

[Empyrus]

With the description of what the mobile HPG does on the battlefield, I think its really interesting someone brought up the TSEMP.  Since the Republic brought it out in 3109 that would be nearly 30 years after the Jihad for research time . . .  We are told it comes from the Mech Taser, but that would not be the first time something was a bit misdirecting.

I really can't see how it comes from the 'Mech Taser except as a functional replacement. A much better replacement.
A taser fires a harpoon and runs current through it. A TSEMP, or just EMP, doesn't do that, being a directed energy weapon (or not very directed in case of normal EMP).

The TSEMP being based on HPG tech seems unlikely, but if the weapon is actually based on WoB tech, then it is plausible the alleged WoB superweapon was actually a prototype directed EMP weapon, with no relation to HPG tech except a rumor welded those together.

Of course, an EMP would not cause dramatic effects such as the hypothetical HPG cannon does... but getting shut down by enemy in middle of a battle leaves one open to follow-up Gauss shot or something like that. An excellent 'Mechwarrior skill with DNI and a TarComp vs shut down target is pretty unfair fight, and Apollyon could look like he is one-shotting 'Mech with an apparent superweapon.

[Sir Chaos]

To turn it the other way, if Terra itself is under siege and there's only one prototype of a possible game-changing weapon handy, who else would be able to pull the kind of clout needed to get it installed on his personal ride?

I'm not saying that's a great idea, mind you. That he drives an old Shootist instead of something more Blake-y... or at least recent vintage... or, you know, 'good'... is a little weird in the first place, but it makes sense that even if he's going to drive that old dinosaur around he should be able to demand just about any trickery installed on it he so desires. Clan tech? Sure. Top of the line Blakist gear? Damn right. Prototype weaponry? Do it. HPG cannon? Sounds fun, make it happen. Not ready for field testing? I'LL field test it and tell you what it does to Devlin Stone's Atlas when I get back.

Maybe that old Shootist was picked as the platform to install this experimental weapon in *because* it was old? Everything newer and more powerful was being used otherwise. Let´s say the weapon was so new that the engineers were still trying to figure out how to install it in *any* ´Mech in first place, so they used this old Shootist that was standing around gathering dust. And the moment Apollyon hears about this new superweapon and that it is "preparing to undergo field trials", he commandeers it, waiting only long enough for the techs to tell him it will *probably* fire when he pushes that big red button.

[Empyrus]

Age of design and equipment mounted on is largely meaningless in BattleTech. You can use only some modern stuff (namely IS weapons) on original primitive tech, that's about the only restriction as far as i can recall.
The Star League and Amaris Empire most certainly would've made use of HPG weapons had they been able to weaponize them. I mean, they weren't exactly shy about using nukes or total war as normal war doctrine, so they wouldn't have held back. I doubt the WoB found an old SL weapon and tried it and wasn't able to build more, they did after all almost re-recreate the original Caspar system, so i'm pretty sure they could've reverse engineering anything else the Star League had to offer.

[Kidd]

Lord knows what Apollyon thinks most of the time. I doubt he'd go to the field with more than a fully-functioning Mech though, but! That's "fully functioning" according to Apollyon's certain point of view... "You mean this device is currently a suicidal kill-everything nightmare instead of the precisely targeted wunderwaffen I expected? Blake's Will be done. EMP them all and let Blake sort them out." Friendly collateral damage would simply have been "not worthy of Blake" or "martyrs to the cause".

[Cyc]

Maybe that old Shootist was picked as the platform to install this experimental weapon in *because* it was old? Everything newer and more powerful was being used otherwise. Let´s say the weapon was so new that the engineers were still trying to figure out how to install it in *any* ´Mech in first place, so they used this old Shootist that was standing around gathering dust. And the moment Apollyon hears about this new superweapon and that it is "preparing to undergo field trials", he commandeers it, waiting only long enough for the techs to tell him it will *probably* fire when he pushes that big red button.

I always assumed the Shootist was just his 'Mech, the one he'd used for years, long before the Word broke off and the Celestials were built. The 'Mech to which his was loyal.

[truetanker]

Well let's start from the basis of the Shootist:

It's at least a 8C, meaning it had 2 ER M, now most likely Cantech, an AC/20, either an advanced IS model or Clantech, and a ER L, again either standard IS or upgraded to Clantech. Oh and standard C3i to upload if need be.

Possible upgrade, (c) ERPPC+Capacitor, (c) LB-10 - Gauss, Heavy Medium Lasers (?)

TT

[Hellraiser]

That was the original Shootist.

This one was rebuilt by the Master after it was damaged to the point of nonfunction in a fight with a Grand Titan.

I can't believe I never picked up on the Shootist looking like Megatron before, LOL.

I love the Optimus Prime / Grand Titan mini that someone painted & posted on the these boards.

Now I have thoughts of a Silver, Black, & Grey Shootist matching Megatrons colors (And I Think matching some of the Shadow Division colors too)


/Note to Self, add a Shootist & Grand Titan to the collection if you ever get the chance..

[HABeas2]

*sigh*

- Herb

[truetanker]

We've angered the Decepticon!

Oh mighty StarScream....

 

TT

[ANS Kamas P81]

It's okay Herb, the kids will see the One True Form when the new Bumblebee movie comes out.  Then they'll get it.

[truetanker]

That Autobot couldn't shut up back in the 80's... took Beachcomber to quiet him down...

Yeah I'm old!

Still got Jazz and Bluestreak and Hound NIB! Along with all my Predacons, Insecticons, Constructicons, Stunticons, Seacons and even got the Superion! So shush you...

TT

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Lucky.  My mom decided to throw all mine out when I was in junior high.

That reminds me, I still have a Barghest I wanted to get painted to look like Ravage.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Ways to start a war: Hot Rod Did Nothing Wrong

More on topic, hrm...how much do we know about the background of TSEMP weapons?  Maybe Pretty Polly's rig was more of a wide-angle AOE blaster, which was then reconfigured into a more compact and focused package. 

There was never an answer to what blew up Hilton Head, was there?  I'd imagine that the Republic would have at least some interest in digging it out unless it's so radioactive it has its own broadcast license.

[Luciora]

There are several threads devoted to Battletech mechs as Transformers.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=7403.0;all

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=50773.msg1171917#msg1171917

If we ever do get stats for Appy's Shootist, I'd love to kitbash it too.

[Kidd]

We've angered the Decepticon!

How the mighty have fallen, eh Megatron?

[Empyrus]

More on topic, hrm...how much do we know about the background of TSEMP weapons? 

Derived from WoB's abandoned research on the Centurion Weapon System, intended to do the work of the 'Mehc Taser without relying on harpoon lines. Started as a one-shot weapon, then the normal weapon, and there's a RISC tech version that can fire every turn but it was abandoned. The weapon was useful with the RotS program to take away private armies from those who didn't voluntarily give them up.

The Centurion itself was an early attempt for a directed EMP weapon by the SLDF in late 28th century. In practice, units were hardened rather quickly against its beam, and the weapon became useless. Basically the WoB recovered this thing, and quickly figured it is pretty much worthless. I would assume their research program wasn't allocated enough resources, otherwise they likely could've developed TSEMP-like weapon from the Centurion, though perhaps the Jihad wouldn't have been long enough for that.

The Jihad Conspiracies talks about 'Mechs and vehicles being fitted with transponders that would shut down the unit when struck by the Centurion, but this is overtly complicated and leads to a question as to how did the Hegemony get transponders to their enemies equipment? (Then there's something about transponder codes being leaked everywhere, lol)
Suitable stuff for a conspiracy work, but i'd assume this stuff isn't true.
Interstellar Operations version makes no reference to transponders, instead it has the weapon's range and effectiveness vary based on target vulnerability, which in turn depends on its quirks, tech base, type, sensor damage status, or physical age. Even then, it only causes a pseudo-heat spike that may shut down the 'Mech as if it had overheated.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

How the mighty have fallen, eh Megatron?

And this thread is officially bad comedy.

[JadeHellbringer]

And this thread is officially bad comedy.

And will be shifting right back on topic from here onward, please.

 C:-)

[Colt Ward]

IMO, question is . . . did his Shootist start off from a -8A, -8C, or -9C?  If he piloted a Shootist the whole time, did he lead the shift from -8A to -8C and later -9C?

St. Jamais piloted a Shootist at one point, could he have advocated the -8C instead of Pantsless?