Customizing an Omni past podspace

[Empyrus]

I still suspect that it was a software bug, and they got used to it, long before these rulings were made.

Does anyone know which pre-2011, non-Franken 'Mechs are being referred to in that third link, where customizing a Clan Omni turned it into a standard design?

Do remember current rulebook set is pretty damn old now. Some 10-12 years or so? And as the rules content goes, it is largely unchanged (as i understand it) from previous rulesbooks, beyond clarifications and few changes and different arrangement.
It is highly likely the current intent, even if never expressed correctly in the rules right now, dates from that time, or more likely even from FASA times.
If someone has old rulebooks with OmniMech construction rules handy, they likely might shed light to this from FASA's times.

EDIT I don't recall ever coming across official customized OmniMech record sheets beyond named configurations on Sarna or Megamek lab files or what RS collections i have. There are a couple of newer Omnis that sport either non-Omni prototypes (the Savage Wolf), or Omni prototypes (the Wendigo), but these are extremely rare and mostly/completely newer things.

[Colt Ward]

Actually this has just come up.

Pull out your copy of Shattered Fortress.

Flip to the back to look at the Templar gifted to Julian from Stone.

Look at the head crits.  Look at the designation.

Notice it is no longer a -Owhatever, which is how the IS set up Omnis.

The Omni is now broken by placing a command cockpit in the head in the space of a ES crit.  This does not affect the movement of any limbs or vital components.  Which is funny b/c HMP, a once official product using at least BMR rules lists all ES & FF crits as being able to be moved to other locations though I want to say that is not the case under TW but I never compared it.

[ANS Kamas P81]

In fairness, isn't the Command Cockpit 3 extra tons?  That'd unbalance whatever it might have for a head, even if there's no direct actuators.

[skiltao]

Empyrus, I joined these forums before the current rulebooks were first published. I witnessed and participated in discussions of their intent, and I stand by what I said.

I did check the old FASA books. The 1990 and 1995 Compendiums, as well as the Tactical Handbook, don't have customization rules; the Mercenary's Handbook 3055 only talks about kits, not free-style customization (and it doesn't address Omnis because they only debuted in TR3058); and the relevant text in the BMR and Maximum Tech was carried essentially unchanged into the current books. The only evidence for this kind of thinking I could find was the Prometheus from Unbound, which formed the basis for the FrankenMeching rules, and its fluff doesn't truly mandate OmniSmoke escaping either.

[Colt Ward]

In fairness, isn't the Command Cockpit 3 extra tons?  That'd unbalance whatever it might have for a head, even if there's no direct actuators.

So?  You can put a medium pulse laser in there and the gyro can compensate but add 1 more ton and it cannot?  Especially when the side torsos, legs, and arms do not face that restriction?  Same thing with CASE . . . its now pod mountable, but those designs that pre-date the rule change well their CASE is different.

I am now curious about BMR with ES/FF crits,

[Empyrus]

Oh, right, i forgot the Templar III from Shattered Fortress. But then again that is extremely new. And the first actual case of production-grade Omnimech that is officially and canonically customized, i think?
That is presumably non-Omni now. Pity Omni-status isn't actually marked on record sheets, and Master Unit List doesn't have it yet so there's no AS card, but i figure it is reasonable to assume it won't have Omni special, once they get around adding it...

EDIT Well, Omni status is not marked in any official way but nearly all Inner Sphere OmniMechs have O in the designation (eg TLR2-O for the Templar III). Julian's Templar's designation is TLR2-J, pretty clear indication it isn't an Omni. Were it a Omni config designated J, it should be TLR2-OJ.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Idly, having a note on the record sheets would be useful - after all, it'd confirm for sure that you can Mechanize BA onto that unit!  No need to look up fluff and would potentially avoid arguments.

[SteelRaven]

To be fair, you can only customize something so far before it becomes something else entirely different.

The rub is that unless your looking at RP rules or running campaign rules, it's not hard to customize anything in the BTU. You just play with the numbers and move stuff around the record sheet. Swapping out a engine or a gun on a standard Battlemech takes time that is not often explored on the table top. Once you start exploring the difference between field refits and factory refits and tech compatibility, it makes more sense that Omni pod space have hard limits to it's modular capabilities.   

[Colt Ward]

It does have hard limits to its modularity . . . crits & tonnage.

[LightGuard]

Hey, there's an in-universe example of an Omni platform that was modified and successfully retained it's Omni-ness.

It's the Bolla Stealth Tank, page 34, E-CAT35131 Technical Readout 3085.

There's two versions of the base chassis: one that has C3i and room for a level I of infantry, giving it 15.5 tons of pod space; the other dropped the C3i and extra infantry space and added four tons to the pod space making it 19.5 tons.

It sounds to me like it's entirely doable with a Class F (Factory) facility. Granted, most GMs aren't going to just give that to their players, and it IS an OmniVehicle, so there's that as well.

Still, exception to OmniSmoke escaping.

[Colt Ward]

Actually . . . it depends on how you read it.  The Republic IIRC is said to produce that second version, like they kept producing a lot of Blakists vehicles with the C3i to C3s/ECM switch.

[LightGuard]

Actually . . . it depends on how you read it.  The Republic IIRC is said to produce that second version, like they kept producing a lot of Blakists vehicles with the C3i to C3s/ECM switch.

Except it already had the ECM for the Stealth tank.

Overview
The Bolla was originally designed by the Word of Blake as a stealth tank tasked with infiltration and the insertion of a battle armor Level I behind enemy lines. The Coalition’s discovery of the research facility where the Bolla was designed allowed for greater understanding of the underlying specifications than could be gleaned from attempts to reverse-engineer captured examples. At Stone’s urging the original design was modified to correspond with the RAF organizational scheme and manufactured at a concealed facility on Terra in 3084 to supply our special forces units.

Capabilities
The first change in the redesigned Bolla was to make the unit more serviceable for the RAF. Since the Blakists used a base of six for their forces, the battle armor bay was sized for a Level I squad of six battle armor troopers. The RAF’s standard squad size of four meant that space was wasted, so the chassis was modified to reduce the bay. The C3i system was replaced with a standard C3 slave, although the stealth armor was retained. Also kept was the machine gun, though its ammunition load was halved, and the ECM required for the stealth armor. These reductions in fixed equipment givethe new Bolla an additional four tons of pod space.

Note that it specifically states that in order to make the Blakist Bolla fit their order of battle, Stone urged them to redesign it.

They also note that the original is still in service with Coalition partners under Deployment.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I don't see anything about the second version of the Bolla being a refit as opposed to a new factory run.

[glitterboy2098]

it was redesigned. much the same way that the Falcon's redesigned the Puma to make the Cougar.. they went back to the blueprints and made changes to the base design, then manufactured a new mech using those new plans. a Cougar has always been a cougar, it was never a Puma, despite the two designs being related. i'd compare the bolla to the F/A-18AB/C/D's and the F-18E/F/G's.. where despite them begin the same name, they are different vehicles that just happen to share similar lines and some parts. (the Cougar/Puma situation is analogous to how the F-5 Tiger II was used as a starting point for the F-20 Tigershark.)

compare this to the Lupus Omnimech and hellfire Battlemech. those did start as Lupus Omnimechs that had been put in mothballs, then got their base chassis changed to create the Hellfire. (replacing the engine with a smaller one being the main change.) in the process it became a non-Omni. (also worth noting that no scratch built Hellfires exist.. they all started as Lupus Omni's which got pulled from mothballs then refit.)

[LightGuard]

I don't see anything about the second version of the Bolla being a refit as opposed to a new factory run.

it was redesigned. much the same way that the Falcon's redesigned the Puma to make the Cougar.. they went back to the blueprints and made changes to the base design. a Cougar has always been a cougar, it was never a Puma, despite the two designs being related.

compare this to the Lupus Omnimech and hellfire Battlemech. those did start as Lupus Omnimechs that had been put in mothballs, then got their base chassis changed to create the Hellfire. (replacing the engine with a smaller one being the main change.) in the process it became a non-Omni. (also worth noting that no scratch built Hellfires exist.. they all started as Lupus Omni's which got pulled from mothballs then refit.)

Eh. It seemed like it fit the criteria.

[Colt Ward]

Besides the smaller engine they also pulled the standard myomer for MASC, which is also something not-pod mounted.

For all that I said they were new builds LightGuard, I agree that it would make sense for captured Blakist Bollas to be refit- but the fluff text does not touch on it.

[grimlock1]

Besides the smaller engine they also pulled the standard myomer for MASC, which is also something not-pod mounted.

For all that I said they were new builds LightGuard, I agree that it would make sense for captured Blakist Bollas to be refit- but the fluff text does not touch on it.

In universe, it makes sense to refit captured WoB Bollas, but under the rules, it's either use them as they are, with pods of your choosing, or scrap them.

If your table is reasonable enough, you could argue say that you striped a WoB Bolla down to a pile of parts, tossed the C3i and 2 of the BA seats in the garbage and built a new ROTS Bolla.   You haven't "changed" any fixed equipment, installed non-omni parts on an omni machine, or omni parts on a non-omni.  You just salvaged all the parts from one machine, and installed 95% of new machine that looks a LOT like the old one.

[Colt Ward]

I honestly think most folks for campaign play at a table would not flip out over taking a captured Bolla and ripping out the C3i and a half ton of MG ammo . . . or the ERMLs for the Avatar's MLs.  Come at them with the Lupus -> Hellfire type modification & still try to claim it as a Omni and I expect that would raise some objections.

Its interesting that with the RAF version you could transport a IS BA platoon (8 in the hull, 4 on the hull) and with 15t up in the turret, its quite a package.

[grimlock1]

I honestly think most folks for campaign play at a table would not flip out over taking a captured Bolla and ripping out the C3i and a half ton of MG ammo . . . or the ERMLs for the Avatar's MLs.  Come at them with the Lupus -> Hellfire type modification & still try to claim it as a Omni and I expect that would raise some objections.

  I wouldn't take much issue.  I might insist that it be a depot or factory level mod because it has to be done just right, else the omni-smoke escapes, but it can be done. 

Its interesting that with the RAF version you could transport a IS BA platoon (8 in the hull, 4 on the hull) and with 15t up in the turret, its quite a package.

I hadn't realized omni-vehicles could carry more than one squad/point/level I of BA under mechanized rules.

In that case, the Badger and Bandit are equally capable.

[Colt Ward]

Yeah, the Dark Ages R10 transport does the same sort of thing being a Omni though I think the Bolla takes the prize for the largest Omni-Turret.

[Col Toda]

By the late 3140s all Inner Sphere based Clan factions would have such a man power and resource boost the Omni ought to be a very much reduced as the emphases moved from having the optimal omni configuration for a batchal to having to defend 3 orders of magnitude more territory . This is why the old Nova Cats and  Ghost Bears use Inner Sphere units to defend rear areas and Clan stuff for offense or the defense of critical infrastructure .  In the Dark Age Inner Sphere Manufacturers are building very limited amounts of Clan spec weapons .  What I do is take an older era design with a ballistic weapon and an ER Large laser with a light PPC this tends to better some heat issues . Swap out an Inner Sphere Gauss Rifle with a Clan Spec one one ER Large laser to save enough tonnage to replace a Inner Sphere XL with a Light engine and maybe swap out or add  CASE II   . I see the Dark Age as an opportunity to save about 3 million C bills per mech thus having the ability to purchase 5 or more percent more hardware with no or minimal reduction of combat efficacy so delt with and a gain of greater quantity and firepower at the point of contact . That is how wars are won .

[SteveRestless]

Not being able to mod an omni and keep it an omni, makes sense from a "I need to maintain a standard for tournament level legality" angle, because it would open a whole unmanageable can of worms but "oops, you let the omni smoke out" is complete BS from a technical angle and really has no place in any of the games I run. Really, it feels kindof insulting, to be told that it just magically ruins the omni. It'd be much better to just say "It would be a record keeping nightmare and we don't want to open that can of worms"

At the very least, some minor modification to the base frame shouldn't suddenly fuse all the pods in place, locking them in there or preventing something from being slotted in. The mech should retain modularity like a Mercury has, at the very least. And it's ridiculous to think that all the battle armor hand holds and power ports rot and fall off just because you swapped a medium laser for a TAG or something.

a more reasonable approach, IMO, would be to treat customizing the base frame as a much more difficult version of modifying a standard battlemech. Forbid it in any sort of tournament level play, because that's already forbidden for static battlemechs but if somebody wants to do it in their campaign, treat it as possible but incredibly difficult to do well. If you botch the attempt, give the choice of repairing to standard and aborting, or taking a negative quirk related to the part you were trying to modify. if you barely succeed, you get your mod, but increase the difficulty of further mods. if you get a strong success, you get your mod and can make more. Make the difficulty for mods that effect the available pod space, or impact the structure/speed/heat dissipation or other innate qualities of the mech scale rapidly towards impossibility, but make minor alterations a realistic possibility. Swapping an Avatar's fixed ML for an ER Version? Relatively Easy. Doing something about the fixed Arrow Launchers on the Naga? Super Difficult.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Do not try to apply real-world logic to Battletech.  Naught lies there but madness and ruin.

[skiltao]

if somebody wants to do it in their campaign, treat it as possible but incredibly difficult to do well.

I agree that trying to increase pod space is a special case which requires special consideration, but what's the point of making other mods extra difficult?

Do not try to apply real-world logic to Battletech.  Naught lies there but madness and ruin.

A tired meme, and largely wrong. Madness and ruin is, as in most things, the result of people being careless in which "real-world logic" they apply.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

There are numerous things about Battletech that are simply "because the rules say so" and no amount of real-world rationalization can justify: omnismoke, double-heatsinks and vehicles, why hardened armor slows mechs down despite not increasing the mass of the mech, the size of planetary garrisons, anything to do with interplanetary economics...

[skiltao]

The omnismoke ruling does stem from a real world rationalization. A half-remembered and possibly mistaken one perhaps, but a real world rationalization nonetheless. It does not exist merely "because the rules say so" (and indeed, no published rule actually supports it). Discussing the rationalization behind the rule is relevant and useful in the context of a practical question posed by the OP - please do not ever come into a thread like this and advise people to turn their brains off.

If the rest of what you said is an argument you really want to make, I am willing to address it point by point, but as it's not topical to this discussion I ask you open a new thread for it.

[SteveRestless]

I agree that trying to increase pod space is a special case which requires special consideration, but what's the point of making other mods extra difficult?

While I lack any special insight behind the dev curtain, my best guess here in plato's cave is that the motivation to deny omni-base-customization is based in wanting to head off the potential rat's nest of subsequent rulings that could follow.

[skiltao]

If you think that's what the motivation is, why suggest the rule you did? Allowing the modification with extra penalties is more complex rule-wise, and therefore seems like it would encourage additional rulings rather than prevent them.

[SteveRestless]

If you think that's what the motivation is, why suggest the rule you did?

Because I am not one of the devs, and think the rules ought to be different. I am simply putting forward my best guess for why things are the way they are, and separate from that, I am putting forward the way I think they ought to be.

[skiltao]

And "the way you think they ought to be" includes making the modification possible but extremely difficult. To which I ask, why? What's the point of making those modifications extra difficult?