Author Topic: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?  (Read 6554 times)

Colt Ward

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GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« on: 03 October 2018, 11:42:04 »
A discussion on another thread got me wondering- I know several ways- but what methods do you use to keep PCs & PC groups from becoming too powerful (aka Wolf Dragoons 2.0- Bigger, Badder, Better!)?

I am not looking to discuss arbitrary solutions- Your damaged Devastator filled with Clan tech (if its a Clan engine, heat sinks and weapons, is it really that IS machine?) cannot be repaired, too much long term structural damage causing microfractures through the entire frame/skeleton.  Looks like your elite pilot with 5 edge points and 10 SPAs gets to sit in the old Urbanmech your mercs keep for apprentice/newbie training.
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Elmoth

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #1 on: 03 October 2018, 11:54:42 »
Make them face even odds and or lose some battles. Now they are the ones getting salvaged by the enemy!

And do not give them all the trinkets to start with.

VensersRevenge

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #2 on: 03 October 2018, 12:17:19 »
I would make the universe react to them. You don't get to be the new Wolfs Dragoons without pissing someone off. Have some insulted noble pull strings to drop an RCT on them. If they cause enough problems for the Word, then maybe a Secret Division is sent to eliminate the threat. Especially in the Chaos March, their are a lot of powers who can destroy a mercenary unit, no matter how large. Just make sure that your reaction is based on what the players have done, don't drop a Ghost Bear Galaxy on them if they never interacted.
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Wotan

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #3 on: 03 October 2018, 12:21:05 »
The mercenary market is still a market. Any reason why a highly skilled and successful mechwarrior should stay with your unit, if he got an offer from a prestigious unit? Yes, you trained him and gave him a mech, when noone did. But now?

And why should a house military leave you with unexpected high valued salvage, when they need it for themselves? Especially rare tech? Ok, they will not rob it, but pay only minimum value. And only for the better of mankind.  ;)

If your unit is highly successful it will make enemies. And some enemies have money to spend on headhunters - or more subtile for some tragic accident in your hangar.

There are so many ways - you do not need to fall back on even stronger enemies in the field. But be careful not to frustrate your players, when confronting them with realitites.

grimlock1

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #4 on: 03 October 2018, 12:35:29 »
Enforce some of the more draconian rules about injuries and disabilities adding up over time?  Unless that is the luckiest SOB to draw breath, you don't rack up multiple SPAs without plenty of scars.  All the buffs from those SPAs start to get nerfed or at least made more niche when the pilot's hand shakes from nerve damage, nearly blind in one eye from the time a PPC past right next to their cockpit after the canopy was blown out, and between the pain from residual shrapnel and PTSD induced nightmares, they haven't had a good night's sleep in 5 years.

Make them face even odds and or lose some battles. Now they are the ones getting salvaged by the enemy!
Even odds... or worse.  They have annoyed the Master.  They are now the 13th Shadow Division's "hobby."

Or a bit less extreme, give them an enemy that is somewhat beyond their reach, who isn't trying to outright destroy them, but just wants to screw with them.  Depending on the era, they piss of some Precentor in ROM.  Some people have a bonsai tree on their desk, this fellow likes to screw with the PCs. Procurement encounters a surprising number of SNAFUs like NAPA sent you parts to fix a GM 370 fusion engine, when you ordered parts for a GM 375, thus sidelining mechs at random. Or maybe fudging force estimates sent by your employer.  A medium Binary becomes at Nova Binary, or a heavy Binary.
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Paul

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #5 on: 03 October 2018, 12:43:49 »
Avoid IC solutions to an OOC problem.
Talk to the players. Get their opinion on how things are going. Express how you feel about stuff. Work together.
The solution is just ignore Paul.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #6 on: 03 October 2018, 12:45:27 »
Are they mercs? Because uber-powerful mercs have one enemy above all others to face, an insurmountable enemy that can fell even the greatest Mechwarriors available for hire.

...Peace.

See, mercs rely on war to get by, right? No war, no work. No work, no money. No money, things get rough. Make times rough- there's just not much work out there for the players right now. It might not even be actual 'peace'- war may be raging, but there's just no cut of the action for THEM. Maybe they've gained a bad reputation due to some slander being thrown around (it doesn't have to be TRUE, after all!). There's always WORK, but minor little raids and such won't really pay your uber-l33t team's bills for long.

Sure, peaceful vacations and minor raids won't use up things like ammo or replacement armor plating at the rate outright warfare will, so it's not as bad as it COULD be, but eventually this stuff starts to add up- or more accurately, it subtracts too much. Your people still need to be paid. Your supplies like food and such still have to be maintained, all that fun stuff. Eventually, your guys are going to hit a point where tough calls have to be made. And THAT, my dear GM, is where you get to sit back, open a Coke, and laugh yourself silly (privately), and watch the fun.

It's time for your players to make ends meet by finding where to cut back. Those super-tricked out Mechs they're so happy about, that win every game without a thought? Time to figure out which ones you can't afford anymore. The Fortress-class Dropship you plan your LZs around? That'd fetch a few months' worth of operating funds, at least. The infantry company? Sorry guys...

Really, this isn't a bad idea for a game to begin with- brew up a roster they can't afford, and make the players cut their own throats, see what they're willing to give up from the toy chest to pare down to operating status. The players are going to learn an awful lot about themselves and each other when it comes to figuring out whether to keep a Centurion and a Clint running instead of a Stalker, for example...  >:D
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grimlock1

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #7 on: 03 October 2018, 12:52:12 »
Are they mercs? Because uber-powerful mercs have one enemy above all others to face, an insurmountable enemy that can fell even the greatest Mechwarriors available for hire.

...Peace.

See, mercs rely on war to get by, right? No war, no work. No work, no money. No money, things get rough. Make times rough- there's just not much work out there for the players right now. It might not even be actual 'peace'- war may be raging, but there's just no cut of the action for THEM. Maybe they've gained a bad reputation due to some slander being thrown around (it doesn't have to be TRUE, after all!). There's always WORK, but minor little raids and such won't really pay your uber-l33t team's bills for long.

Sure, peaceful vacations and minor raids won't use up things like ammo or replacement armor plating at the rate outright warfare will, so it's not as bad as it COULD be, but eventually this stuff starts to add up- or more accurately, it subtracts too much. Your people still need to be paid. Your supplies like food and such still have to be maintained, all that fun stuff. Eventually, your guys are going to hit a point where tough calls have to be made. And THAT, my dear GM, is where you get to sit back, open a Coke, and laugh yourself silly (privately), and watch the fun.

It's time for your players to make ends meet by finding where to cut back. Those super-tricked out Mechs they're so happy about, that win every game without a thought? Time to figure out which ones you can't afford anymore. The Fortress-class Dropship you plan your LZs around? That'd fetch a few months' worth of operating funds, at least. The infantry company? Sorry guys...

Really, this isn't a bad idea for a game to begin with- brew up a roster they can't afford, and make the players cut their own throats, see what they're willing to give up from the toy chest to pare down to operating status. The players are going to learn an awful lot about themselves and each other when it comes to figuring out whether to keep a Centurion and a Clint running instead of a Stalker, for example...  >:D
You're evil.

Avoid IC solutions to an OOC problem.
Talk to the players. Get their opinion on how things are going. Express how you feel about stuff. Work together.
You're smart.
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Brakiel

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #8 on: 03 October 2018, 12:52:59 »
While I agree with the general sense that the PCs should suffer setbacks, it shouldn't be in a way that feels like capriciously screwing them over "just 'cuz". People like to overcome challenges and get a sense of progression, to feel more powerful as time goes by. No one wants to see all that hard work scrounging up Clan tech, crossing your fingers on refit rolls, etc. all flushed down the drain just because the GM wants to beat up on their players, especially if it's some off the battlefield reason where they might have little impact on its resolution (assuming you aren't using AToW to role play out of cockpit).

VensersRevenge brings up a good way to organically work in a challenge. Someone I know who studies military history often says "threat evokes response". Make it clear to the players that they're drawing unsavory attention. Every time they hit the field, they're going to be risking their equipment on opposition which is just as well equipped and trained as they are. A crack unit successfully fighting off a Clan attack during the Invasion might be subject to some across the border raids by Clanners during the truce looking to test their mettle. A successful raiding party against the Blakists during the Jihad is going to find itself being hunted from the shadows pretty quickly. And once they do run into that opposition, the PCs should always be presented with a couple of options. They could try the slugging it out, but runs the high risk of pilot death or permanent equipment loss. But the option of running means they might take a reputation hit and still lose at least a mech or two. Forcing them to run away from multiple engagements would be almost as bad as slugging it out, because now they aren't fulfilling contracts (if they're mercs), not getting salvage to sell, etc. Morale starts sinking, you can't make payroll or pay for repairs, and things start falling apart. It's nerfing the players indirectly, but still as a consequence of their own decisions.
« Last Edit: 03 October 2018, 12:57:02 by Brakiel »

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #9 on: 03 October 2018, 13:05:29 »
Theirs always a couple nukes or biological weapons or even a Warship.

grimlock1

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #10 on: 03 October 2018, 13:07:50 »
Don't you hate it when you can't find the meme you're looking for?

2 aliens are looking at a screen with Superman.
1.  A Kryptonian?  Oh great.
2.  It gets worse.  Green Lanterns.  Plural.
1.  We're going to have to procede very carefully.
2.  Or we could just leave.

With the caption "Time to Retire the Party."
I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

Sartris

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #11 on: 03 October 2018, 13:10:00 »
I take a different tact and have limited campaigns - a conflict on a specific planet with an operation of limited scope and shelving the unit after the objectives are met

If they’re not willing to start over and you don’t want them to be their own superpower, they need to be culled somehow without it seeming like a contrived injustice

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epic

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #12 on: 03 October 2018, 13:11:00 »
 - use forces and scenarios against them that don't generate a lot of salvage for whatever reason (fanatical self-destructing foes, use inferno rounds with your mechs with no CASE and don't care about the heat, ditto for other ammo stuff, use more vehicles against them that won't just bail out if they become an armored pillbox).
- injuries
- use peacetime maintenance costs and other maintenance costs to keep the equipment creep down too much
- artillery (units are totally destroyed if CT destroyed AOE)
- air strikes (see artillery)
- re-pod enemy machines appropriately for a given scenario (seriously; I know so many GMs that will just randomize a force and have the most ridiculous Omni-configs for say.. an urban fight)
- enemies - the more people they crush on the way up, the more people will want revenge (whether it's a "You killed my father!" duel scenario, or a "You ruined my ambitions to break away from the Lyran Commonwealth!")  Both big and small enemies can be crafty in how they gain their vengeance.  It could be guerilla attacks or sabotage, or it could be full invasions. 
- go for the core!  A nasty and yet effective way to kill a machine is to core it - with a good gunnery skill, TC and heavy weapons at close range, this can be done easier than one might think.  Can't rebuild it then, and a called shot using TC like this isn't out of character for a boss npc... and incidentally, doesn't kill the PC either. 

Alternatively... embrace the madness.  If your players WANT the most powerful unit, then go with it.  We're here to have fun after all.  Sometimes, it's entertaining to see what can be done. 

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JadeHellbringer

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VensersRevenge

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #14 on: 03 October 2018, 13:44:27 »
While I agree with the general sense that the PCs should suffer setbacks, it shouldn't be in a way that feels like capriciously screwing them over "just 'cuz". People like to overcome challenges and get a sense of progression, to feel more powerful as time goes by. No one wants to see all that hard work scrounging up Clan tech, crossing your fingers on refit rolls, etc. all flushed down the drain just because the GM wants to beat up on their players, especially if it's some off the battlefield reason where they might have little impact on its resolution (assuming you aren't using AToW to role play out of cockpit).

VensersRevenge brings up a good way to organically work in a challenge. Someone I know who studies military history often says "threat evokes response". Make it clear to the players that they're drawing unsavory attention. Every time they hit the field, they're going to be risking their equipment on opposition which is just as well equipped and trained as they are. A crack unit successfully fighting off a Clan attack during the Invasion might be subject to some across the border raids by Clanners during the truce looking to test their mettle. A successful raiding party against the Blakists during the Jihad is going to find itself being hunted from the shadows pretty quickly. And once they do run into that opposition, the PCs should always be presented with a couple of options. They could try the slugging it out, but runs the high risk of pilot death or permanent equipment loss. But the option of running means they might take a reputation hit and still lose at least a mech or two. Forcing them to run away from multiple engagements would be almost as bad as slugging it out, because now they aren't fulfilling contracts (if they're mercs), not getting salvage to sell, etc. Morale starts sinking, you can't make payroll or pay for repairs, and things start falling apart. It's nerfing the players indirectly, but still as a consequence of their own decisions.

And make sure it's clearly a result of your players actions. Your players have to be able to tell that their actions are what caused the response. If they feel like it's GM fiat, things are only going to get worse.
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Colt Ward

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #15 on: 03 October 2018, 13:45:55 »
Paul, I agree with what you said- its always important to set expectations.  This was more with a how have those expectations been met by others.

While I agree with the general sense that the PCs should suffer setbacks, it shouldn't be in a way that feels like capriciously screwing them over "just 'cuz". People like to overcome challenges and get a sense of progression, to feel more powerful as time goes by. No one wants to see all that hard work scrounging up Clan tech, crossing your fingers on refit rolls, etc. all flushed down the drain just because the GM wants to beat up on their players, especially if it's some off the battlefield reason where they might have little impact on its resolution (assuming you aren't using AToW to role play out of cockpit).

Which is why I was trying to rule out arbitrary responses.  Early for my mercs I set up a contract w/scenario that involved creating a betrayal to establish a enemy, if they survived.  They were hired guns to help a minor noble capture a convoy of finished mechs on the way to the drop port.  The PCs were already a security-conscious/paranoid group coming from a family background of merc work, so the guy playing the employer's forces did not get to set up as much to stab them in the back as possible- they got really lucky capturing the convoy & driving off the defenders.  So the PCs did not end up with as much damage or even crippled mechs when the guy playing the employer's force kicked off the betrayal.  They took more damage, got no salvage, and lost a single mech but recovered the pilot while fleeing for their DZ.  Two mechs had to be mostly rebuilt, armor damage & ammo expended, and a owner-operator lost his family's Rifleman 3N to a lost leg but they survived though lost their cash reserve since they did not get paid (non-MRBC job) until they found another contract.

Several years later . . . someone comes to them offering a contract with backers to take down the noble who double-crossed them . . .

I started re-watching Smallville to get to seasons I never saw, and I am thinking of using something from a episode.  Lex finds out his home is bugged and knows his father did it.  He gets back by hiring a specialist contractor team (mercs!) to break in and return the favor.  Newbie/muscle/lowest ranking guy goes behind the team leader's back to recruit the other two from the team- 'I am not breaking into the richest man in the world's office and not opening the vault!' -in a attempt to get a bigger pay off than the job they were hired by Lex to carry out.  I could EASILY see this carrying over to a BT merc objective raid about capturing or destroying a prototype weapon/mech/vehicle/ASF when a database with all sorts data is there for the taking since your already on the inside.  It would be a great way to split a merc command, and for the PCs to end up with damaged survivors, decreased rep, and not getting paid.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

grimlock1

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I'm rarely right... Except when I am.  ---  Idle question.  What is the BV2 of dread?
Apollo's Law- if it needs Clan tech to make it useable, It doesn't deserve those resources in the first place.
Sure it isn't the most practical 'mech ever designed, but it's a hundred ton axe-murderer. If loving that is wrong I don't wanna be right.

truetanker

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #17 on: 03 October 2018, 14:12:02 »
Get them all excited about a new Garrison Contract near a major enemy to bust....then throw them under the bus... Good news or Bad news?

Bad news: Your mechs were on that Mule that just jumped heading towards the rear. The good news, we won't charge you for the shipping, they'll be here in about a month!

And a week later~ We're being attacked!!!

TT
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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #18 on: 03 October 2018, 14:12:52 »
the problem with making a catastrophe due to the players' actions is that you are attempting to trap them into failing. it's like shooting baseballs directly at someone's head with the objective of hitting them after doing too well at batting practice and claiming that getting hit was a failure to get out of the way. it's not part of their expectation for reasonable progression in the campaign.

ratcheting up the campaign to reduce the players' force is automatically a contrivance. following Machiavelli, i'm not telling you not to do it. just don't get caught doing it 

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JadeHellbringer

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #19 on: 03 October 2018, 14:42:07 »
I know I've told this one before, but it makes for a good example of a way to nerf a powerful player force... and still end up giving you a story to tell.

Many, many years ago I ran a group in Spokane, WA, and we had a mild cheating problem. Nothing huge, but a repeated thing where players would take an AC/10 hit, mark six dots, and then act like they marked the other four. Fire two shots from an Ultra/5 and mark one round used, roll that MASC roll in a dice tray conveniently under the lip of the table where the GM can't see it, that kind of thing. I made it clear a couple of times that I was aware of it, and I would prefer that kind of thing end immediately, and it was generally met with a shrug. Which was fine. I'm a creative and vindictive person.

Our group at this point has been around a while, and have some serious firepower as a result of repeated raids against the Clans (this is around 3060). A Mad Cat C, a Longbow tricked out with Clan LRM-15s, a Turkina (though it had IS weapon pods still at this point)... and this time they're taking on a new kind of enemy, on the far end of the Inner Sphere. A bounty is on their heads, after all, courtesy of the Wolf Clan, so going elsewhere and letting the heat die down is a good idea. And what do you know, there's work available via House Liao!

See, the Trinity Alliance is a shaky thing, still, but it's getting better- and not in a good way if you're Liao. The increasingly strong ties between the Taurians and Canopians is great, but if they get TOO close the Capellans might be on the outside looking in- can't have THAT. So, the occasional false-flag raid to keep things honest is only prudent if your'e a Capellan, right?

The job is easy. Meet the Capellan forces on Repulse, leave your usual gear behind and take a group of 3025/3050 medium and heavy designs painted as 1st Taurian Lancers, and hit a Canopian garrison. Don't take over the place or anything, just hit and fade. Return to Repulse via the chartered jumpship, exchange for your usual gear again, take your payment (a modest amount and a pair of new Mechs, a Lao Hu and a new-tech Raven) and call it a day- oh, and take a vow of secrecy, the kind that ensures you don't talk to anyone about this, EVER, upon penalty of a fate worse than death. Fun! It wasn't bad gear- a Crusader, a Thunderbolt, a couple of Shadow Hawks, etc., but it had to look Taurian- if they show up in a Mad Cat and such, it's going to prompt questions about who the raid really was, and that won't do.

The players arrive, and where they were told they'd face a medium lance and some armor/infantry, there's a problem- frontline Canopian forces have rotated in, including some freshly-purchased Capellan firepower, lead by a Yu Huang. It's bad news- and it's a rout. The players are left running like hell, pursued by gleeful Canopians both on the ground and in the sky. The dropship escapes, but only eight of the original twelve Mechs have survived, and those aren't in great shape.

Back to Repulse to ask the Capellans what the hell just happened... and this was where things REALLY got fun. The Dropship lands, the players come out in their battered (partially repaired) Mechs to make the exchange, and get told by Capellan control that they have no record of the mercs. Leave immediately. The players are of course flummoxed, because they're talking not to some random Liao but to the same Maskirovka operative they took the job from to begin with, why doesn't she remember us?

Final warning- leave at once, or be fired upon. At this point, familiar-looking Battlemechs begin showing up on the far end of the battlefield, a few mapsheets away. A Turkina. A Mad Cat. A Longbow... oh god. OH GOD.

For the better part of an afternoon, my now-ex and a couple of good out-of-town friends chased the players back to their Dropship for the second week in a row, pursuing them in their own Mechs. They escaped (taking two more losses in the process), less as a result of their prowess and more because I made sure they got away with some of the 'Taurian' gear. Their stuff? It's gone. Now there's just... this stuff. And a warrant for their arrest, courtesy of information about their dressing as Taurian raiders that 'somehow' leaked to the Canopians and Taurians.

At this point, the shop is closing, the miniatures go back in their foam trays, and the dazed players want answers. So I simply asked "will you all be cheating again in the future? Don't answer me now, really think about it for next time."... and left for home.

...for the rest of the time I joined that group, they were remarkably good about record-keeping.  ^-^

My point here is that the players' munch-tech was removed, but it was as part of a larger story- there was a REASON it was gone, and while they weren't happy about it (particularly as a punitive measure), it set up stories that could allow the campaign to continue in fun directions- they're wanted by two Periphery powers now, as well as Liao really, and that means major problems- but it could also help them fall into pro-Marik or Davion camps in the future. It could set up a situation where they take work with, say the Word of Blake, not knowing it was a setup to hand them off to the vengeful Taurians. If your group is into a story being told rather than stat-crunching, this is golden stuff. If not... well, the GM will have fun, at least, and the players will have some challenges to work through.
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VensersRevenge

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #20 on: 03 October 2018, 14:44:53 »
You're not making the catastrophe, they are. Conquering a world from a major faction and being hit back hard isn't a contrivance, it's a logical reaction. Of your players take Tikonov, for example, then they have to expect that it's going to be counterattacked. Don't set out to screw your players, but don't hold back from reacting how states actually would to a group with no backup doing something rash.
...Is this just fantasy?
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Androsynth

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #21 on: 03 October 2018, 14:56:02 »
Play it out logically is what I do. Is your unit full of high tech goodies, super successful etc? Great! Enjoy everyone around you trying to take the toys from you! Which, of course, adds all kinds of interesting conflicts and situations for the PCs to deal with, which makes for a memorable story.

Not, mind you to screw them over, but rather to set up conflict and struggle, which means fun.

It's like the old adage in Dwarf Fortress, that crazily complex roguelike/chaos simulator: Losing is Fun. All of your best stories come from bad situations, and when you win out from those, your team truly feels like a TEAM.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #22 on: 03 October 2018, 14:58:19 »
It's like the old adage in Dwarf Fortress, that crazily complex roguelike/chaos simulator: Losing is Fun. All of your best stories come from bad situations, and when you win out from those, your team truly feels like a TEAM.

"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

DOC_Agren

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #23 on: 03 October 2018, 15:03:21 »
Every action the PC unit makes should make ripples, if they are becoming the next Wolf Dragoon, Kell Hounds, Big Mac, etc.  They are going to make enemies.

Worse enemy is one who attacks are "indirect", you order brand new advanced tanks, and what is in the shipping container, Scorpions some assemble required.  The upgrade packages your order, yep you got the package, but they are what the upgrade package should replace.  Of course you can file for missing stuff, I'm sure someone will care.

And then, if you are one of the Biggest Bad Unit out there someone going want a shot at you.  Worse is if they hire Bounty Hunters, who target just 1 PC
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VensersRevenge

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #24 on: 03 October 2018, 15:07:33 »
Every action the PC unit makes should make ripples, if they are becoming the next Wolf Dragoon, Kell Hounds, Big Mac, etc.  They are going to make enemies.

Worse enemy is one who attacks are "indirect", you order brand new advanced tanks, and what is in the shipping container, Scorpions some assemble required.  The upgrade packages your order, yep you got the package, but they are what the upgrade package should replace.  Of course you can file for missing stuff, I'm sure someone will care.

And then, if you are one of the Biggest Bad Unit out there someone going want a shot at you.  Worse is if they hire Bounty Hunters, who target just 1 PC
I would be careful of specifically targeting one player in these situations. It isn't going to significantly impact the power of the unit as a whole, but it will make someone who you presumably like if you are running a campaign for them think you are targeting them. That is going to cause far more problems than a new Wolfs Dragoons making your campaign too easy.
...Is this just fantasy?
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Androsynth

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #25 on: 03 October 2018, 16:30:44 »
I'd also add:

I never ask 'is this overpowered' or is this 'underpowered'. I ask "does this make the story we're making together better or worse? Does it add possibilities, or limit them? Does it add tension, or kill tension?"

Critical Role, the RPG live stream is a good example of this. Parts of it get pretty ridiculous in terms of bending the rules... but Mercer does an awesome job of keeping the story tense and exciting, and the players engaged. Perfect example, in one episode, the completely-useless-in-combat Bard, Scanlan, scores a huge crit on the big bad and saves the team. The players were literally jumping out of their seats cheering and the character milked that for days. THAT is what you want out of a game session.

I see the GM/DM/Whatever role as a combination of real time author/editor than anything else. Authors funnel imagination, editors cut out anything that gets in the way.

Robroy

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #26 on: 03 October 2018, 16:53:22 »
As a player I love these threads and think 'what was I doing wrong ' or maybe the GM was just that good, nah  ;D

At the height of our game the players were running a combined arms regiment during the Clan Invasion. Out of 44 mechs only 4 had clan tech, because they were clan ommis, and we paid dearly just to maintain them let alone salvage rights to replace destroyed components.

Then there was the regular operating cost, our monthly overhead was something like 2.5 million. If a mission went sideways and deemed a loss, not a breech of contract, but just a loss, it could end up cutting into the war chest savings.

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #27 on: 03 October 2018, 17:33:17 »
Don't let them get too powerful in the first place
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massey

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #28 on: 03 October 2018, 17:57:43 »
Avoid IC solutions to an OOC problem.
Talk to the players. Get their opinion on how things are going. Express how you feel about stuff. Work together.

This this THIS!!!

I’ve played in some overpowered games before. However powerful this group is, it can’t compare to some of the superhero games I’ve been in. And I can tell you that nothing feels like more of a rip-off than having a GM try to take away everything your characters have earned.

Here’s what you do.  Sit the players down.  Say “I’m not having fun running this game anymore.  Your characters are so powerful that I can’t come up with reasonable opposition to challenge you.  Anything I do at this point to provide real danger for your characters is going to feel like a GM screw job.”  Then you ask how they want to conclude their story.

There are 3 real options I see at this point.

1)  Hard reset.  The players encounter some sort of major disaster.  They get caught in a nuclear bombardment, most of their forces are destroyed.  The players survive but most of their stuff is gone.  They are back to square one.  The guy with 5 Edge is down to 1 Edge, the rest permanently blown helping him survive by hiding in a refrigerator or something.  They can keep playing these characters but everything is scaled back.

2)  Retirement.   Congrats, the House Lord has made you a Count.  Now you will spend your time overseeing some planet somewhere.  Your merc forces become your household guard.  Everybody gets a happy ending.  You get the benefit of knowing that your characters “won”.  But now they are retired and they have responsibilities, and you can’t play them anymore.  We can do a few game sessions where each player gets the spotlight and gets to enjoy their success.  But basically this is your farewell tour.

3)  Blaze of glory.  You want one last big war, where everybody probably dies?  Want to go out saving the empire from certain doom?  Well here comes your arch enemy and he is pissed.  We’re gonna do one big massive battle (or series of battles), and most of your stuff is gonna get annihilated.  You will get to make a final heroic stand, but basically everyone is gonna die.  Or they might as well have died.  You’ll kill your arch enemy at the end, and your names will live in legend, but after that we start a new game.


Think of it like the Kell Hounds.  Morgan Kell has a final battle with Yorinaga Kurita.  He goes Phantom Mech and then goes off to be a monk.  Patrick Kell disbands the unit and retires.  Some of the non-main characters can go on to have their own adventures, but that initial campaign is over.
« Last Edit: 03 October 2018, 18:07:33 by massey »

E. Icaza

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Re: GM Discussion- How do you trim back PC groups?
« Reply #29 on: 03 October 2018, 18:33:38 »
Lots of very good advice.

Also remember that as their abilities and fame grow, their enemies likely grow with them.  They may have been just a nuisance when they were a struggling lance-sized unit and beneath the notice of that Duke whose prized vineyard they trashed, but when he hears that they've grown to a battalion in size...well now they're a more credible threat.  And something that he can manipulate his peers into doing something about.

 

Of course, my own group of PCs is potentially sowing the seeds of their own destruction.  They've take a series of pirate-hunting campaigns in the Periphery and keep recruiting some of those very same pirate pilots as MW because they're better skilled than the "starting forces".  So, if it continues like it has been, they may have a "Ship of Theseus" thing going on...but with pirates.   :D
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