Gun safes.. E-lock or manual dial?

[Hellraiser]

had a manual dial safe covering it up, then she had the electronic lock to get in. 

Wait, can I get a picture of that.  So it was like a lock over a lock?  Mildly confused.

If you're bolting it down, and you can, then both to the wall, and to the floor is preferable to either/or.  mount in a corner and you can be bolted securely on THREE sides (wall, wall, floor).

Never thought of bolting it to TWO walls (in a corner) AND the floor...

I like where your heads at!
My Master Closet borders the exterior of the house & the bathroom on the 2nd story. 
This might be my spot, lol 

[Prospernia]

While it's true that there's no way to build a lock or home security device that is impossible to break into, there's still a point when most criminals will decide that it's not worth bothering with.  Especially when for every person who does keep their guns and other assorted valuables locked up in a safe there's a few dozen who don't.

I know an ex car-thief and he told me that if a car has a flashing light on the dash-board, he'd just move on to the next car; because there's plenty of cars on the block and it's not worth the risk, what ever that light means.

[garhkal]

Wait, can I get a picture of that.  So it was like a lock over a lock?  Mildly confused.

From my memory on how she described it, it was the safe inserted into the ground of her home's basement (think john wick style), then she hinged another safe like door Over it...

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I know an ex car-thief and he told me that if a car has a flashing light on the dash-board, he'd just move on to the next car; because there's plenty of cars on the block and it's not worth the risk, what ever that light means.

That reminds me- a few weeks ago my mom read an article about how some car theft rings are recording the signals from key fobs, causing her to become paranoid that my car was going to get stolen if I didn't switch to immediately storing my key fobs in a Faraday Cage.  Which, car theft is a thing that happens in my area, but 90% of the time it's old cars that don't have electronic keys or keyless ignitions.

Also, she was strangely unconcerned about the possibility of her own car being stolen, despite it being a newer and more expensive car than mine.

[deathshadow]

Not physically possible.

There's an old saying from computer science that applies here.

"The only truly secure system is one with zero access. The moment anyone needs to be able to get in, you are no longer secure."

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yup.  If there's a way to get in legitimately, there's a way to get in illegitimately as well.

[Hellraiser]

From my memory on how she described it, it was the safe inserted into the ground of her home's basement (think john wick style), then she hinged another safe like door Over it...

An I see, Vertical & inset into something.  Got it.

That is one thing I really can't do, LOL, nothing in this house is thick enough for all that.

[Cannonshop]

True, but from the few school sessions we had, about breaking locks (for comsec reasons), the time it takes someone, to crack manual dials, most thieves won't have, unless they break into a home and TAKE the safe with them.. 

I wonder, if they've ever made a key lock that can't be picked??

True, the determined will always get in, even if they just have to break it to get in it..

We had a gal when i was stationed in Bahrain, who had her home stateside broken into.  HER two safes (One for her coins, one for her important documents), had a manual dial safe covering it up, then she had the electronic lock to get in.  Cops said the criminals cut into the first lock cover, but by the time they saw the second, the just left her home with what loot they stole already.  Compared to two other homes they broke into that they were able to get OODLES of stuff, because the owners had NOT ONE thing under lock and key...

Would you care for a side of fries with that...

Never thought of bolting it to TWO walls (in a corner) AND the floor...

Before his death, my Stepfather was considering a retirement side-job playing with guns, in order to meet BATF guidelines we had to put security gates on all the windows of his house, bolt down the safe storage and he went a little bit 'extra' to make sure-part of that, was bolting gun safes into corners on three sides to make them more difficult for someone unauthorized to remove.

The basic idea remains the same though-you can try security-through-obscurity, (safe that looks like something else), Security through structure, and so on-but the central key is that, if you arne't spending the budget of a third world country, all your measures aren't to stop professionals, because pros know how to get past them.

The measures are to block Opportunistic thieves.   a Junkie looking for something to pawn for their next high is going to focus on what's left 'loose', followed by what's not very well locked down, so the longer it takes for your intruder to get past your 'ordinary' security measures, the better those measures will protect your goods-criminals don't inconvenience themselves if htey don't have to, or they wouldn't be criminals.

Hence why your deadbolt on the front door of your house is the best investment you can make on a cash-to-effect basis-if the door is locked and the lock is a pain to overcome, that's going to freeze out a lower tier of crook.  the more time they have to spend getting at anything they can re-sell? that's going to deter a slightly better level of crook looking for an opportune score.

give someone sufficiently determined enough time, however...

anyway, my vote is pick a corner in your closet, bolt it floor-wall-wall.  it's more bolts, sure, and you still have to secure the actual access to the safe, but depending on what you're using, that's going to take time.

as for the question of Digital versus Mechanical locking schemes? do your own research there, and keep in mind that there has never been, and never will be, a lock that someone with sufficient resources can't overcome if given enough time or resources.  Your locking safe is to inconvenience the opportunistic criminal, not the dedicated professional.

[garhkal]

There's an old saying from computer science that applies here.

"The only truly secure system is one with zero access. The moment anyone needs to be able to get in, you are no longer secure."

We also said, in our IT dept, a security system is only as good as the DUMEST person operating it.

An I see, Vertical & inset into something.  Got it.

That is one thing I really can't do, LOL, nothing in this house is thick enough for all that.

It could work if one had a deep enough basement slab..

[Daryk]

Real professionals don't bother with doors... the blow a hole in a wall... ;D

[Tegyrius]

Real professionals don't bother with doors... the blow a hole in a wall... ;D

If you're the target of a bunch of Heat LARPers, you may want to reconsider the life choices that led you to this point.

[Cannonshop]

If you're the target of a bunch of Heat LARPers, you may want to reconsider the life choices that led you to this point.

Or, consider that you've done something so right, that someone is willing to put that much effort into getting into your bitty little gun safe.

IOW you and me? we're not lucrative enough to make the effort worth it, but Paul Allen or Bill Gates? might be.

[garhkal]

True that. IF a thief's got THAT much time and is willing to go through that much effort, its likely what i have is more than worth stealing.

[Daryk]

Still active duty here... if my people want into a building, they GET IN to the building... ;D

[Prospernia]

That reminds me- a few weeks ago my mom read an article about how some car theft rings are recording the signals from key fobs, causing her to become paranoid that my car was going to get stolen if I didn't switch to immediately storing my key fobs in a Faraday Cage.  Which, car theft is a thing that happens in my area, but 90% of the time it's old cars that don't have electronic keys or keyless ignitions.

Also, she was strangely unconcerned about the possibility of her own car being stolen, despite it being a newer and more expensive car than mine.

That reminds me; in high-school, back when land-lines were still around, I couldn't get a portable-phone for my room because, my parents told me, that, thieves drive around with phone-scanners, and can pick up a portable-phone's number and use it to make fraudulent-calls.  So, never had a phone in my room and had to sit out in the den to talk to my girlfriends when they called, with my parents listening.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I remember hearing about that supposedly happening as well.  Even got a 60 Minutes piece devoted to it, IIRC.

[deathshadow]

We also said, in our IT dept, a security system is only as good as the DUMEST person operating it.

Which is why the biggest data breaches fall into two categories:

1) Amateurs leaving gaping security holes (see idiots who still sleaze user generated variables into query strings instead of prepare/exec separation)

2) Social engineering

The latter being all about manipulating and exploiting human weakness, laziness, and ignorance. It's why phishing scams are so blasted effective.

I mean what's easier? Shimming the lock, or swiping your dad's keys from the keyholder by the front door or the top drawer in the living room shelving?

Not that I ever did stuff like that 40-45 years ago.

Though a great example is something my father set up on the cabinet that was pure comedy and it actually caught a burglar. Four decades later it's probably safe to tell people about this. There was what looked like a normal electrical outlet box with conduit feeding into the cabinet he added with a standard 3 prong plug and wire going into it, that ran over to the fusebox across the room.

Above it on the floor joist he wrote "***WARNING***, Gun Cabinet Alarm, Do not unplug!" in black sharpie.

You know what happened if you unplugged it? It set the alarm off, closed the outside cellar door and inside one, and solenoids fired to secure the deadbolts.

The wire was just a dummy closed circuit. No power running through it. Unplug it, opens the circuit, triggers alarm and safeties.

I think that was the first real example of a "honeypot" I'd ever been exposed to. Also the first time I ever heard of a crim trying to sue a homeowner for illegal detention.

It takes some real donkey brass to break into a house then try to claim to be the victim.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Well, booby traps are illegal in the US.  If your home defense measures rise to the legal definition, you can be held liable.

Also, any idiot can file a frivolous lawsuit.  Judges, however, tend to take extremely dim views of them and will typically dismiss the actually frivolous ones out of hand.  Take the infamous McDonald's coffee lawsuit: that restaurant location had already been issued multiple safety violations because they were serving their coffee well above the safe temperature limit.  It wasn't an instance of someone failing to think that coffee might be hot, it's that coffee should never be served hot enough to cause third degree burns (which is what happened to the plaintiff).

[garhkal]

Your dad was very creative in that defense mechanism..  Cudos to him (waayyyy after the fact that is).

[idea weenie]

I wonder, if they've ever made a key lock that can't be picked??

Not impossible to pick, but the Bowley lock design makes it really difficult to pick:
LPL's Progress so far (17 minutes)
A Bowley 2nd generation with 2 parts (12 minutes)
Animation of how the Bowley lock works (2 minutes)
And here is someone who made a tool to pick the Bowley lock (4 minutes)

[Daryk]

The government standard is 30 minutes against surreptitious/covert entry (page 7 here: https://exwc.navfac.navy.mil/Portals/88/Documents/EXWC/DoD_Locks/PDFs/FF-L-2740.pdf)

[Terminax]

It really depends on your budget and intent. If you're talking about a safe for valuables, a combo lock or key lock is preferable. Better to be small and out of the way, hidden for that purpose.

Firearms, ideally you want at least two layers of protection. A locked gun cabinet, again with key or combo secured yo both the wall and floor is ideal. Having it further secured in a closet with a security door and frame, with a gpod lock will deal with most common issues.

For personal protection, a locking slide out concealed next to or under the bed is sufficient.

I don't trust any RFID systems, too easy to copy and bypass. A good combo or key lock will do.

[greylok]

Considering what has come to light regarding E Locks and gun safe manufacturers have a "master passcode"  they're willing to share sans warrant, i wouldn't have an electronic anything that someone else (i.e. manufacturer) has a backdoor to. The combo style is better but as noted earlier also with significant flaws.  I lean toward a physical key - and would like it if it were a dual key arrangement. Have not seen that on the market though.

Of course, being old school i tend to shun the electro-tech trends, as pointed out previously above referencing the Scotty qoute, it's not an IF it is a WHEN the batteries fail, a connection comes loose, or what have you.

Side note - and sure has the world not doing some techno palm print battery powered security on a firearm, as it too would be susceptible to failure - and likely when said firearm was most needed.

a thought on storage in general - a safe anchored to concrete is of course more secure, however arms stored away from where you are at when a shtf moment occurs makes them less than useless.  Figure out a way to have something where you are - bedroom at night, general living area for other times.

so the saying goes "stay strapped or get clapped"..

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

If you need a gun readily accessible in every room in your house, you should probably move.

[SteelRaven]

Of course, being old school i tend to shun the electro-tech trends,

Electronic locks have been around long enough that calling it a 'trend' is a little short sighted.

And for someone to have that master pass code, they would need to know exactly what type of lock/safe you have. If whoever has that much information about you, you have bigger problems than the type and brand of lock.

[Cannonshop]

Electronic locks have been around long enough that calling it a 'trend' is a little short sighted.

And for someone to have that master pass code, they would need to know exactly what type of lock/safe you have. If whoever has that much information about you, you have bigger problems than the type and brand of lock.

okay, this is going to edge into dangerous territory, but...  master codes? are likely to be one code for all produced model of that lock.  It's more efficient for the manufacturer than having more than one.

The other problem was brought up 'Sans Warrant'.  A warrant provides more layers of safety than you think-because judges don't hand them out (in theory) to just anyone for just any reason.  It verifies that the Law Enforcement officer actually IS a law enforcement officer, for example (and not just some guy with a fake ID and a badge-prop), and that their desire to have that code is at least somewhat legitimate, lawful, and legal.

The problem of a 'universal key' for a mass produced item like a gun safe, is that if it's widely produced, and widely purchased, it becomes something where having a passcode that opens several of them, makes an opportunistic thief's life easier.  He might not ALWAYS find one , but when he does, it's the same as leaving the guns lying on the floor of your bedroom, ready to be collected.  If it's available without a warrant, that means it's not going to be treated as carefully as something an officer had to get a warrant to obtain.  This in turn increases the likelihood that said code will end up in the wrong hands, either through neglect, or outright corruption-both of which, since we're dealing with human beings, are so common as to reach the point of certainty.

the purpose of locks, is to make entry or theft inconvenient.

[garhkal]

Firearms, ideally you want at least two layers of protection. A locked gun cabinet, again with key or combo secured yo both the wall and floor is ideal. Having it further secured in a closet with a security door and frame, with a gpod lock will deal with most common issues.

Sort of putting a safe INside another safe..

Electronic locks have been around long enough that calling it a 'trend' is a little short sighted.

And for someone to have that master pass code, they would need to know exactly what type of lock/safe you have. If whoever has that much information about you, you have bigger problems than the type and brand of lock.

True that.. Plus they'd need to know WHERE your safe is!

[Prospernia]

Also, check with your home-owner's insurance to see what they require.

[Cannonshop]

Also, check with your home-owner's insurance to see what they require.

THAT is a really good point.  Check your policy (whether homeowner's, or renter's) to see what the company's willing to cover, because you may find that what you're using isn't enough to have decent coverage in the event of loss or theft.

which, in turn, can get you a better idea of what the security experts working for the corporation that doesn't want to pay money out think is minimum secure storage.  (greed can be a wonderful measure for evaluating this sort of thing-specifically the sort of greed that pays analysts to find ways not to pay out on insurance claims.)

[ImperialistDog]

Till you get to actual safe doors taken from old banks that you concrete into a structural safe they're all more a suggestion to keep out than anything else.  It's why the really valuable things in my home aren't in a safe, they're in an ordinary container in a closet I can grab and run with quick in an emergency.  Let any idiot robbers try to steal my office safe and carry it off, has nothing but old paperwork in it.  The gun safe on the other hand, best security is just to electrify the outer case with house current.  Anybody who doesn't know to turn off the hidden switch first is gonna smell the bacon.